Tohei Sensei had a hard task in front of him. Avoid atemi (which seals openings), avoid small joint manipulation (how many times he could've smacked him in the face, turned under his arm and done a bitching sankyo?), and yet NOT LOSE to a heavier, aggressive man. He succeeded.
I can't find a reference, but I remember reading about an incident like this where Tohei performed badly against a larger but unskilled opponent. Ueshiba sensei was apparently furious and Tohei was not too pleased either so he decided to rethink his training. Apparently by the time he started touring the USA he had improved a lot and never had such a problem again.
This remains a nice video. As the cameracrew guy doesn't play according to any rules and Tohei handles it very nicely. Hmm, @1:20 a very effective irimi nage.
well, i know where you can go for a first hand accout. Yamada sensei (the New York One) was at hobu during this period. he wont tell them unless you ask directly, but he will talk about Tohei
@Godsmasher22 Yeah I can agree with that. Again, bridging is a wrestling technique that avoids back contact, that really doesn't matter. If you throw someone onto their front, it is pretty effective too. The techniques that work combatively and apply the principle of maximum efficiency are the ones from wrestling that should be kept, IE moratte gari, kata garuma, kibisu gaeshi, and any others I'm missing.
@PompousAceAll I think most of them adapted that posture because it works in wrestling, and wrestlers can come into Judo and be dominant with morotte gari, kata garuma, and kibisu gaeshi. It isn't a weak posture, and the IJF pretty much banning that position and leg attacks indicates a fear of it, I think. Sad because I love kibisu gaeshi.
@shinjukool aikido since 87, "bjj" since 96 and judo 5 years. Aikido keiko is a kind of kata practice, sorta like "drilling" in BJJ/judo. The waza "works" but Aikido principally aims for a physically/mentally rigorous practice accessible to all (at some level) in order to forge students in ways broader than just the practical application of the art. there's more, can't be bothered to explain. sorry. Do aikido, judo, "bjj" (from qualified teachers) before judging.
What you are conveniently ignoring is the fact that ANY technique in ANY martial art can be resisted if you know in advance what it is going to be. And as for the "tracking" trick, there are some techniques that simply won't work under those conditions, but in others, an immediate counter can be applied that would result in a catastrophic loss of balance and most likely an injury to the new student. That is probably why you were told not to do that...
Tohei senseis 10th dan didn't spring out of nowhere, he was good on the mat. What I am curious about is if he ever took the fight off the mat. Gozo Shioda for instance, was quite famous for his fights with Yakuza in Tokyo bars, Morihiro Saito also had a reputation with the local gangs. Ueshiba sensei himself took challages from all comers in his day. Yet all the stories of Tohei sensei are Mr nice guy. So where are the anecdotes about him kicking ass in a uncontrolled environment?
@Godsmasher22 Interesting. Well its not unusual for similar techniques to develop alongside each other. Pankration (from Greece) has some hip and shoulder tosses that look like Judo long before there was any exchange of culture between Europe and East Asia.
There are stories of various aikido sensei who used to go out and get involved in real world fights for the fun or just because they liked a drink and got into trouble! I am curious if there are stories of Tohei doing this? Perhaps he was too much mister nice guy and never got in trouble. That sort of real world "testing" is what would take dojo technique and make it real technique. Just a thought. Anybody have links?
If this video were posted today, and no one knew it was Tohei, you'd have a bunch of aikidoka saying "that's not aikido, it's sparring, we don't compete in aikido" etc etc. hmm. What has the art come to.
kobekkobe: That's true for someone who is advanced enough in Aikido to know what "sen-no-sen" and "sen-sen-no-sen" mean, but for the general public, your statement would come across as vague and wouldn't help anyone understand what's really happening. The true goal of aikido is to PREVENT conflict from ever getting to the physical level, and this happens to be possible most of the time, especially in the case of "sporting" challenges.
Tohei's still a 10th dan. That video was shot a long time ago, and was working on a completely simple concept. If it were anything more than what was done there, you'd see something completely different. If you ever read and research Jigoro Kano's visits to Ueshiba's schools, it has been quoted several times that Aikido resembles the true Judo he had envisioned. btw, I only noticed people getting injured in Judo ever since it became a sport. So many things "not" gentle about the sport of Judo.
people! get real. the white dude was a visitor to Japan for a TV program on Aikido. Tohei Koichi is going to (really) flatten him? He just keeps him away and upends honorable Mr. Visitor-sir a few times in a very gentle way.
As an aikidoist, you would NEVER want to get into a prancing game with anyone. When facing an "experienced mugger", one option would be to hand over the money and spare the potential violence and damage to everyone involved; and the other (especially when it looks like cooperating will not keep you safe)--to see your attacker as a walking target and just go in and get the job done, be it simply by destroying him (NOT aikido) or holding the blow and changing to a submission if you can (aikido).
kobekkobe: For someone who wants to see an "external" test of aikido, however, that is only be possible when an aggressor is so unbalanced that he actually does cross the physical boundary and launch himself into an assault. The aikidoka, of course, should already be in motion before the physical attack begins, rather than just waiting to react to it (which would be go-no-sen).
The only place where aikido could really be tested is in a real-life conflict, with an attacker hurling himself at you with the intention to do you harm, and doing so impulsively, having lost any capacity to be reasoned with and talked to. Of course, if someone did that to an aikido instructor, then regardless of the outcome of the fight, he'll be going straight to jail at the end...
There is so much confusion among the people about what aikido is and is not, it'll be hard to clear it up in a few sentences. The main point, though, is that aikido is NOT a competitive sport. It is designed for handling raw aggression from an opponent who is acting on impulse and is therefore mentally and physically unbalanced. By contrast, an MMA match, violent though it may be, is a consensual encounter, with both opponents as concerned about protecting themselves as they are about attacking.
I have an idea what you were doing--having seen the technique demonstrated previously, you knew in advance where the nage was going to move, so you either instinctively or intentionally redirected your attacks to "track" them, instead of striking at the initial target, right? Or else, you would attack, but as soon as you saw your partner move to apply the technique, you'd hold back and switch to resisting. Those are the two most common tricks beginners try when they want to "test" aikido.
@TheTerrorUforgot Wrong. The Kodokan banned it because Judos Olympic status was threatened. The olypic committee ll the difference between Judo and Wrestling.
Aikidoka do not train to attack, so how could they possibly compete or win in a sparring match? The moment an aikido practitioner throws himself at an opponent, he stops doing aikido and becomes the agressor. In a real-life confrontation, if an attacker has the wherewithall to dance around, hold back, be on guard, etc., he is not really aggressing anymore, but competing, and so may be amenable to resolving the problem through talking, which is what a good aikidoka would try to do first anyway.
That sounds interesting, but it is not what is happening here. No arm breaking and no serious ass kicking. Do you have links to video footage or a first hand account?
But the moment an aikidoka acts preemptively in a competition, it's not aikido anymore, so what you'll really be testing is how good that particular individual is at attacking, not the effectiveness of aikido as an art.
in this video can be clearly seen and understood that ended with the death of Aikido Ueshiba. Koichi Tohei can not cope with an older fighter and a direct adept About sensei 10 dan.
But, just for argument's sake, let's say you walked into an aikido school, challenged the instructor and he accepted. And then, before you could even take your first swing, he rushed at you, closed the distance, threw you down and submitted you, what would you say? " "Holy shit, I guess aikido really works", right? WRONG! That wouldn't be aikido, it would be jiujutsu. Very experienced aikido practitioners do become very sensitive to such opportunities for a preemptive attack, including strikes.
Yeah! Also Koichi Tohei does what ahrdly ever anyone does today: to go backwards in an arch keeping the same distance/contact with uke: the art of becoming one with uke (instad of constant "irimi"s of today lowering aikido into an ordinary martial arts state).
@patrickhenrysghost I'm an IJF affiliate and that's who we got the news from. It was a stupid move that watered down the sport. Kano put those moves in because they work, and Judo has never looked like wrestling to anyone who knows what they're talking about. A smarter move would be to elongate the ne waza period and possibly take out a pin as a form of winning. Taking out leg attacks takes it from "gi wrestling" to "gi Greco-Roman wrestling."
I may have come a bit harsh but this is towards the people who think Aikido can really be this effective against Judo, its just not possible. Also I respect Tohei Sensei, and also acknowledge that Tohei has a high Dan rank in Judo itself. The video even displays a chokehold which Aikido does not teach.
Are you kidding me? If this Aikidoka were able to really pull off such awesome anti-grip techniques he would be a millionare teaching international Judoka how to do such techniques. But guess what, that video does not display a Judoka or another grappler vs a Aikidoka, its BS among other BS in this video.
Does this video shows alot of aikido? NO. In life/death situations or "Reality," anything goes, an artist is not bound by rules. "Aikido" is a way of life, not to be debate as some kind of ultimate killing art. And is it effective, can you kill someone with this art? It's common sense.
most don't know what they're watching. 2 gaijin roll into hombu dojo for a TV show & ask for a roll around at the end. K Tohei just knocks him down a few times gently and get's it over with. Bye. Made in the 50's hence the silly music.
Aikido is part of a lifestyle that I include in my life, but not my way of life. I'm a dance instructor. I just happen to have the opportunity to test it out on many situations.
@PompousAceAll I think youre an Aikidork who has no live training experience whatsoever. Judokas own Aikidorks 100% of the time. As a judo yellow belt, I was able to walk through Aikido black belts. While the Aikigeeks put on dead drills and lame demonstrations, the Judoka trains live and plays to win. Aikido sucks dude. For real.
Compared to any decent MMA fighter today both these guys look like shit. Herman in particular is no fighter (just a journalist briefly showing SOME resistance but mainly going along with the ride. Even Tohei doesn't have the reflexes, speed, strength and versatility of todays better MMAs. He would loose rather quickly in the UFC; and that is clear to see. Now "Ki"??... that is just magic, mysticism and wishful thinking. I've never, ever seen ki (or even aikido) used in any MMA match.
I work at a Judo/BJJ school and have rolled with them before, but practice Tohei's Aikido. I'd have to say, although not consistently, but with little Judo/BJJ training, I've never been choked or arm barred successfully by any of them, instructors included and have won a few rounds playing by their rules, despite them having easily 3-4 times more stamina than I do. So the effectiveness in my opinion is there, if I didn't have those rules to follow, I'd treat it very differently.
Tohei Sensei had a hard task in front of him. Avoid atemi (which seals openings), avoid small joint manipulation (how many times he could've smacked him in the face, turned under his arm and done a bitching sankyo?), and yet NOT LOSE to a heavier, aggressive man.
He succeeded.
I can't find a reference, but I remember reading about an incident like this where Tohei performed badly against a larger but unskilled opponent. Ueshiba sensei was apparently furious and Tohei was not too pleased either so he decided to rethink his training. Apparently by the time he started touring the USA he had improved a lot and never had such a problem again.
This remains a nice video. As the cameracrew guy doesn't play according to any rules and Tohei handles it very nicely.
Hmm, @1:20 a very effective irimi nage.
well, i know where you can go for a first hand accout. Yamada sensei (the New York One) was at hobu during this period. he wont tell them unless you ask directly, but he will talk about Tohei
@Godsmasher22 Yeah I can agree with that. Again, bridging is a wrestling technique that avoids back contact, that really doesn't matter. If you throw someone onto their front, it is pretty effective too. The techniques that work combatively and apply the principle of maximum efficiency are the ones from wrestling that should be kept, IE moratte gari, kata garuma, kibisu gaeshi, and any others I'm missing.
@PompousAceAll I think most of them adapted that posture because it works in wrestling, and wrestlers can come into Judo and be dominant with morotte gari, kata garuma, and kibisu gaeshi. It isn't a weak posture, and the IJF pretty much banning that position and leg attacks indicates a fear of it, I think. Sad because I love kibisu gaeshi.
@shinjukool aikido since 87, "bjj" since 96 and judo 5 years. Aikido keiko is a kind of kata practice, sorta like "drilling" in BJJ/judo. The waza "works" but Aikido principally aims for a physically/mentally rigorous practice accessible to all (at some level) in order to forge students in ways broader than just the practical application of the art.
there's more, can't be bothered to explain. sorry. Do aikido, judo, "bjj" (from qualified teachers) before judging.
Wow your prejudice is outstanding.
Gozo Shioda would have flattened Herman in 2 seconds.
What you are conveniently ignoring is the fact that ANY technique in ANY martial art can be resisted if you know in advance what it is going to be. And as for the "tracking" trick, there are some techniques that simply won't work under those conditions, but in others, an immediate counter can be applied that would result in a catastrophic loss of balance and most likely an injury to the new student. That is probably why you were told not to do that...
Tohei senseis 10th dan didn't spring out of nowhere, he was good on the mat. What I am curious about is if he ever took the fight off the mat. Gozo Shioda for instance, was quite famous for his fights with Yakuza in Tokyo bars, Morihiro Saito also had a reputation with the local gangs. Ueshiba sensei himself took challages from all comers in his day. Yet all the stories of Tohei sensei are Mr nice guy. So where are the anecdotes about him kicking ass in a uncontrolled environment?
@Godsmasher22 Interesting. Well its not unusual for similar techniques to develop alongside each other. Pankration (from Greece) has some hip and shoulder tosses that look like Judo long before there was any exchange of culture between Europe and East Asia.
There are stories of various aikido sensei who used to go out and get involved in real world fights for the fun or just because they liked a drink and got into trouble! I am curious if there are stories of Tohei doing this? Perhaps he was too much mister nice guy and never got in trouble. That sort of real world "testing" is what would take dojo technique and make it real technique. Just a thought. Anybody have links?
~InternetJunkie
I totally agree. This guy looks like he is using a little wrestling and really going to get him down.
Finally an aikidoka worthy of watching...real stuff. Not choreographed. Thats why seagal trains and adapts nowadays
Sounds like you can be some kind of world champion with the way you describe it.
Ever think of going to the Pan Ams or ADCC?
You are among the few who are able to spot fraud and fakery when others cannot. Very perceptive.
Misleading because Tohei was also a 3rd Dan Kodokan Judo, so he is familiar with grappling.
If this video were posted today, and no one knew it was Tohei, you'd have a bunch of aikidoka saying "that's not aikido, it's sparring, we don't compete in aikido" etc etc. hmm. What has the art come to.
当時は結構、力技でしたね！
This is a excellent demonstration!
kobekkobe: That's true for someone who is advanced enough in Aikido to know what "sen-no-sen" and "sen-sen-no-sen" mean, but for the general public, your statement would come across as vague and wouldn't help anyone understand what's really happening. The true goal of aikido is to PREVENT conflict from ever getting to the physical level, and this happens to be possible most of the time, especially in the case of "sporting" challenges.
В белом кимоно какую цель преследует не понятно на татами поваляться
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately I am in Germany, so not much chance any time soon. Maybe someone else can follow it up?
Tohei's still a 10th dan. That video was shot a long time ago, and was working on a completely simple concept. If it were anything more than what was done there, you'd see something completely different.
If you ever read and research Jigoro Kano's visits to Ueshiba's schools, it has been quoted several times that Aikido resembles the true Judo he had envisioned.
btw, I only noticed people getting injured in Judo ever since it became a sport. So many things "not" gentle about the sport of Judo.
people! get real. the white dude was a visitor to Japan for a TV program on Aikido. Tohei Koichi is going to (really) flatten him? He just keeps him away and upends honorable Mr. Visitor-sir a few times in a very gentle way.
Is he fighting a white belt?
This is not even a fight..
As an aikidoist, you would NEVER want to get into a prancing game with anyone. When facing an "experienced mugger", one option would be to hand over the money and spare the potential violence and damage to everyone involved; and the other (especially when it looks like cooperating will not keep you safe)--to see your attacker as a walking target and just go in and get the job done, be it simply by destroying him (NOT aikido) or holding the blow and changing to a submission if you can (aikido).
kobekkobe: For someone who wants to see an "external" test of aikido, however, that is only be possible when an aggressor is so unbalanced that he actually does cross the physical boundary and launch himself into an assault. The aikidoka, of course, should already be in motion before the physical attack begins, rather than just waiting to react to it (which would be go-no-sen).
The only place where aikido could really be tested is in a real-life conflict, with an attacker hurling himself at you with the intention to do you harm, and doing so impulsively, having lost any capacity to be reasoned with and talked to. Of course, if someone did that to an aikido instructor, then regardless of the outcome of the fight, he'll be going straight to jail at the end...
There is so much confusion among the people about what aikido is and is not, it'll be hard to clear it up in a few sentences. The main point, though, is that aikido is NOT a competitive sport. It is designed for handling raw aggression from an opponent who is acting on impulse and is therefore mentally and physically unbalanced. By contrast, an MMA match, violent though it may be, is a consensual encounter, with both opponents as concerned about protecting themselves as they are about attacking.
I have an idea what you were doing--having seen the technique demonstrated previously, you knew in advance where the nage was going to move, so you either instinctively or intentionally redirected your attacks to "track" them, instead of striking at the initial target, right? Or else, you would attack, but as soon as you saw your partner move to apply the technique, you'd hold back and switch to resisting. Those are the two most common tricks beginners try when they want to "test" aikido.
@TheTerrorUforgot Wrong. The Kodokan banned it because Judos Olympic status was threatened. The olypic committee ll the difference between Judo and Wrestling.
Aikidoka do not train to attack, so how could they possibly compete or win in a sparring match? The moment an aikido practitioner throws himself at an opponent, he stops doing aikido and becomes the agressor. In a real-life confrontation, if an attacker has the wherewithall to dance around, hold back, be on guard, etc., he is not really aggressing anymore, but competing, and so may be amenable to resolving the problem through talking, which is what a good aikidoka would try to do first anyway.
That sounds interesting, but it is not what is happening here. No arm breaking and no serious ass kicking. Do you have links to video footage or a first hand account?
But the moment an aikidoka acts preemptively in a competition, it's not aikido anymore, so what you'll really be testing is how good that particular individual is at attacking, not the effectiveness of aikido as an art.
この数年後、素人外国人相手でも対応できるようになってます
ruclips.net/video/X64HWyWV0nI/видео.html ←この動画の2:36から
GREAT VIDEO!!!! (muy bueno)
i'd like you post some more, (me gustaría ver un poco más!)
thx!!!
Pull guard Herman!
in this video can be clearly seen and understood that ended with the death of Aikido Ueshiba. Koichi Tohei can not cope with an older fighter and a direct adept About sensei 10 dan.
心身統一合気道にはガッカリした。これで十段。
maybe Tohei seisei doing judo.judo can't use wrest lock.
Is aikido limited to wrist locks techniques only?
@@techventureshub
No, it isn't.
Koichi Tohei is great! BUT, this Walt Disney music makes it feel like an old Mickey Mouse cartoon! :)
@PompousAceAll Not a good Judoka who knows the priciples of kuzushi, tsukuri, kake.
But, just for argument's sake, let's say you walked into an aikido school, challenged the instructor and he accepted. And then, before you could even take your first swing, he rushed at you, closed the distance, threw you down and submitted you, what would you say? "
"Holy shit, I guess aikido really works", right? WRONG! That wouldn't be aikido, it would be jiujutsu. Very experienced aikido practitioners do become very sensitive to such opportunities for a preemptive attack, including strikes.
Why would it be jiu jitsu?
Yeah! Also Koichi Tohei does what ahrdly ever anyone does today: to go backwards in an arch keeping the same distance/contact with uke: the art of becoming one with uke (instad of constant "irimi"s of today lowering aikido into an ordinary martial arts state).
@patrickhenrysghost I'm an IJF affiliate and that's who we got the news from. It was a stupid move that watered down the sport. Kano put those moves in because they work, and Judo has never looked like wrestling to anyone who knows what they're talking about. A smarter move would be to elongate the ne waza period and possibly take out a pin as a form of winning. Taking out leg attacks takes it from "gi wrestling" to "gi Greco-Roman wrestling."
they stopped by to film a video in the 50's post war. What's he gonna do fuck him up? forget it.
👍🏾
I may have come a bit harsh but this is towards the people who think Aikido can really be this effective against Judo, its just not possible.
Also I respect Tohei Sensei, and also acknowledge that Tohei has a high Dan rank in Judo itself. The video even displays a chokehold which Aikido does not teach.
Aikido does nit teach?
Kanai Sensei teaches them
Chiba Sensei teaches them
All original uchi deshi
Don’t speak if you don’t know
@@DOHCG They don't
Shioda sensei would have slapped him like a stepchild!
Are you kidding me?
If this Aikidoka were able to really pull off such awesome anti-grip techniques he would be a millionare teaching international Judoka how to do such techniques.
But guess what, that video does not display a Judoka or another grappler vs a Aikidoka, its BS among other BS in this video.
Does this video shows alot of aikido? NO. In life/death situations or "Reality," anything goes, an artist is not bound by rules. "Aikido" is a way of life, not to be debate as some kind of ultimate killing art. And is it effective, can you kill someone with this art? It's common sense.
Grappling?...More like wrestling Star Trek style🤔
most don't know what they're watching. 2 gaijin roll into hombu dojo for a TV show & ask for a roll around at the end. K Tohei just knocks him down a few times gently and get's it over with. Bye. Made in the 50's hence the silly music.
I must say, considering Tohei was what, a 10th dan at this point? He doesnt do very well. Not very impressed.
Herman won...
If that big guy had been punching, I think he would have knocked out the "master".
Lol but this video is about grapping.
なんだこれ🤣
Aikido is part of a lifestyle that I include in my life, but not my way of life. I'm a dance instructor. I just happen to have the opportunity to test it out on many situations.
@PompousAceAll I think youre an Aikidork who has no live training experience whatsoever. Judokas own Aikidorks 100% of the time. As a judo yellow belt, I was able to walk through Aikido black belts. While the Aikigeeks put on dead drills and lame demonstrations, the Judoka trains live and plays to win. Aikido sucks dude. For real.
Bollox
Compared to any decent MMA fighter today both these guys look like shit. Herman in particular is no fighter (just a journalist briefly showing SOME resistance but mainly going along with the ride. Even Tohei doesn't have the reflexes, speed, strength and versatility of todays better MMAs. He would loose rather quickly in the UFC; and that is clear to see. Now "Ki"??... that is just magic, mysticism and wishful thinking. I've never, ever seen ki (or even aikido) used in any MMA match.
I like Aikido and I'm sure Tohei is a beast when it comes to dealing with strikes but this looks like sloppy Judo.
no, prolly not. Pretty much wasted enough time w all this.
Judo! wtf. That was some guy in a white gi who doesn't even know what he's doing. hahaha. what a joke.
I work at a Judo/BJJ school and have rolled with them before, but practice Tohei's Aikido. I'd have to say, although not consistently, but with little Judo/BJJ training, I've never been choked or arm barred successfully by any of them, instructors included and have won a few rounds playing by their rules, despite them having easily 3-4 times more stamina than I do. So the effectiveness in my opinion is there, if I didn't have those rules to follow, I'd treat it very differently.