When is Stock NOT really STOCK?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- so this is a follow up to my last video on Project MISSION IMPOSSIBLE
since it was a hot topic I wanted to discuss when is Stock NOT really STOCK?
Unity Motorsports Garage Merch
shop.unitymoto...
#mopar #dragrace #nonamenationals #budgetbuild
Guys, the concept could not have been simpler or more direct. How much power can we make by reworking and massaging all of the original parts of a non-high performance engine. It was never supposed to be a BUILD, it was supposed to be an EXPERIMENT. The goal was an IMPOSSIBLE one (hence the name...) but it was a BENCHMARK to shoot for...1 hp per cube.
Let me repeat....it was supposed to be an EXPERIMENT. an EXERSIZE IN CREATIVE ENGINE BUILDING....it was supposed to be a FUN project that ANYBODY could follow along with and apply the TRICKS to ANY ENGINE.
How this all got so twisted and off the rails is beyond me
Tony that is what we are doing an EXERCISE IN CREATIVE ENGINE BUILDING..
We could spend $800 in decking the block,heads and offset grinding the crank, or put $400 rods in it.. seems pretty simple to me
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Andy, you're not seeing the forest for the trees.
@UncleTonysGarage Tony you said you didn't want to be involved, and that is fine. I get it, and you are doing your own build which is even cooler! David and I really do wish you the best of luck
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Yeah, I'm taking a completely different approach to this CONCEPT now. Actually just purchased an entire vehicle for it today. I'll talk about Mission IMPROBABLE tomorrow...and no, it has nothing to do with 318's.
Junkyard Jet was supposed to be an experiment as well. An experiment in what can be done with a very small budget. I believe Mission Impossible was to be a learning/teaching experience under the same premise as the Junkyard Jet. Yes money always makes things better, but not everyone has the disposable income to purchase steel rods, forged pistons etc etc. I look forward to watching both ides make it to the dyno.
I think Tonys was trying to teach what can be done with what the motor started as. Alot of car people like to part of or watch you guys work some magic. watching what your doing with mind and hands is what helps many grow.
Exactly. 3 really smart and talented hotrodders - I wanted to see what they could do with the stock parts ONLY.
@pete540Z good luck with using 50 year olds.. I'm sorry but I realized that people would be upset with just doing a simple overbore to get straight cylinders to work with.. saying it isn't a 318 anymore!
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage - I wouldn't have been upset if was a simple overbore and you guys only made 40hp more than stock - I wanted to see what you talented guys could do with stock stuff.
@@pete540Z well you pretty well saw it . O wouldve got rid pf those junk heads first thing regardless of who didnt like it !!! Pathetic that you honestly cant see that this bid on engine will actually worth bidding on and Last for whoever gets it !!! The weight David took out of the stock rods with the thin modern rings ARE your 40 hp easily !!! Thats just in Efficency improvement . But on a worn out bore ?? Ha ha if you dont have a seal you dont have a engine . Bet if your wallet would open to bid youd expect the best of everything PLUS A WARRENTY !!!!
@@bobgyetvai9444 if the block needed a bore, then find one that doesn't need a bore.
Guys we just wanted to see what you 3 men could do with pure stock parts. No aftermarket “high performance” parts allowed. That’s what the RUclips world wants to see. Any of us can order and build motor part by part from Jegs and make 400hp easy. But 300 hp from a 2bbl 318 now that’s entertaining.
well some of us knew from the get go that Mr Vizard was getting roped into some stupid stuff, its like asking the Lozano Brothers Porting to build a stock 318 engine, or in other words have a little common sense.
@@davegt27 then he shouldn't of agreed? Seems simple enough. The rest of the world understood the assignment.....only these guys didnt
@@davegt27exactly. Uncle tony was just riding vizards coat tails. Vizard has a MUCH MUCH better vision for the 318..with quality modern AFFORDABLE parts. Its 2024 not 1975 anymore. If David Vizard said the low performance parts tony sent him wouldnt make 300 horsepower, then that is GOSPEL..Vizard already knew and was being polite to tony frankly
@@Crazy8ts Nobody really cares how much horsepower it makes… we wanted to see the gains they could do with the all stock 318. Could they even beat the 230 horsepower dodge claimed? That’s what I wanted to see. If I wanted to watch a 2024 build I would goto other channels… And for that matter why even mess with a 318 in 2024 anyway? You can sneeze on a LS and make killer power.
@@snizzytown5217 true..in 2024 no one is going to put 100 hours grinding on stock smog era 318 castings to gain 25 horsepower when engines like the LS , coyote, and modern hemis are abundant in 2024. ..but tonys goal was in fact 1 horsepower per cubic inch..so at least 318 horsepower...thats a tall order and a big leap in.power over the stock restrictive smog era 318 castings he sent vizard...1 horsepower per cunbic inch was never going to happen with the piece of junk he sent to vizard...vizard is a living legend not a miracle worker. Tony lives in an fantasy land...and then walks away from an icon like Vizard for having a realistic vision and a more acheivable affordable less time consuming(labor cost)dedicated rotating assembly and better factory 318 head castings to acheive the most efficiency for the 1 horsepower per cubic inch goal...tony is backpeddling when he says a lot if horsepower wasnt the goal..toi get the junk.he sent vizard to make that much.power using only those parts to get 1 horsepower per cubic inch was asinine..that is a huge increase over what the smog era castings he sent them were factory engineered for..so yes ABSOLUTELY..a huge horsepower gain was his "intent" from those parts.. At the end of the day he wouldnt listen to viizard vizard already knew it wouldnt happen and was trying to be polite to tony. Tony is not a professionsl engine builder lets get that straight. David Vizards word on a rebuild is Automotive Gospel...Tony learned something.
Good one! I did a similar deal on my 400. NO ONE batted an eye when I told them I was using stock block, Stock crank, and stock length rods. I actually bought the ones from 440 source that have cap screws instead of bolts. I could get them cheaper than I could have mine reconditioned. I’m excited to see this build in action and as a mopar guy, am glad to see any changes and how they affect the 318’s outcome.
It comes down to common sense, Money, and is it practical..
I'm going to have fun with this Build!
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage like Tony said - it wasn't supposed to be a BUILD. It was an experiment with the stock parts only.
@@pete540Zwell it's a build now!... And I for one am glad that uncle caveman is out!
@@moparnut6286 Well you went there. Bye
@@pete540Z where the heck was he then ?? Tony wasnt even there !!! He did nothing !!!
Sesh... It seems like yall are really overthinking this when in my opinion the original idea was straight forward and really simple.
David and Andy are gonna actually make some power and document the process
@matthewklein9225 That's great. But evidently, the original idea some folks just can't understand.
@@pawns2prizes please describe what you want them to do? In detail.
@@matthewklein9225 I 100% agree Tonys idea is trial and error and it would be time consuming.
@matthewklein9225 Listen, they can do whatever they want. It's their time, money, RUclips channel, etc. Also, there's no point in going into detail on this when my original comment says it all.
This is a prime example of how quickly something simple can get fucked up. The plan was simple it wasn’t supposed to be a build it was supposed to be an experiment. Of course it’s easier stronger and probably cheaper if you time has any value to just buy aftermarket parts. If you replace one part in the engine (even a rod bolt) with a non stock part this simple experiment has no point anymore.
well, the experiment runs into the classic problem of giving the 318 any sort of real compression. and your bit about the affordability of parts is valid--was Tony footing the bill? I have to agree with what Andy said here or someplace else--he's building a brand, and using crappy worn out parts isn't going to help that. But as for "non stock" parts, is a Holley carb (for example) an aftermarket part, or a factory part? they came on quite a few performance cars. We probably already know how much power a 2 bbl 318 is going to make--Ma Mopar likely took the best one they had to dyno test originally. we all love to think we can port a cylinder head, but in reality most people just make the ports too big and mess it up.
So this statement does hold true, I felt that David and Andy should never have said they would do the engine, because they should have said there schedule would not have allow them the time to do it, this would have been a very interesting build as first discussed.
No, Mission Impossible as described in the live chat was dead on arrival because I realized people thought we would be using 50 year worn out parts to do this build... That is crazy talk..
Tony will be getting his worn out parts back and we can do our own version and he can do his
Andy
@UnityMotorSportsGarage it's crazy talk to you because you refuse to see the concept
You act like that was the last 318 in the world ...if Tony wants a 318 Im sure one of his buddies will drop one off they were and still are free...
This sounds like someone trying to explain to their wife why they spent so much money on a build.
If you are really slick, the wife will never even know....:)
so basically it’s a modified build it was meant to be for the home builder to spend min amount of money not the man hours involved. For the home builder Time doesn’t cost money
DV did a how to video on modifying the stock rod for anyone interested in saving money
There's not much you can do... Vizard said a stock rebuild will perform like a stock engine. Used to be called an "overhaul" when you tore an engine down cleaned things up and reassembled. With machine and head work its a "rebuild" Balancing and blueprinting is what Tony is talking about but it doesn't make sense with stock parts. Even a basic dirt poor hot rodder will scrounge up a cast iron intake and 4 barrel on the cheap . I get the old school hot rodder thing but ,you know what they really did? they put big Lincoln and Cadillac engines in small coupes and roadsters. They didn't play around with the stock flathead 4 or 6 engines...
Common sense /money/practical…..I totally agree….although the thing I originally liked about this project was that I thought I was going to see how far an engine could be taken with lots of elbow grease and little to no money
The question then becomes is the juice worth the squeeze.. trust me to make this come together the way we are doing will still be a TON of elbow grease
Andy
I’m still looking forward to the results and definitely see your guys point. Thanks for the great content.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage no, its absolutely not worth the squeeze...that's why we wanted to see it.
Great video Andy and David! I completely agree with your logic. Time is money. I value my time at north of $100 per hour. The $400 set of con rods etc makes perfect sense to me.
I love you guy’s but you really missed the whole point this time. I was really surprised and disappointed at how this came about. I know you keep explaining but you are explaining something that has nothing to do with the original concept? Still love you guys and UTG.
I respect your position on it, Since this engine will have my name on it I want it to be right and not cobbled together
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGaragethis is the whole problem in a nutshell. It was to be an experiment not a sales pitch! I really wanted to see what the dismal underperforming 318 could really produce! Just my $ 0.02!!! Also David’s project is a worthwhile but it should have been done either separate or after the original idea was completed!! Still just my thoughts! The whole matter is a huge disappointment and it definitely isn’t worth losing a friendship over!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarageif you built it why would it be cobbled together?
@wyche11 if using worn out parts it would be definitely cobbled together
Andy
@@M_Phipps0520 when Mopar picked out a 318 engine to dyno test in order to have a HP number to advertise...do you think they picked out their best built engine to test, or they just grabbed any one coming off the assembly line and hoped for the best? remember, this wasn't a performance engine they had to sandbag. so there's the answer to the big question.
i agree, this isn't worth losing friends over, but UTG has pulled the same stunt on DD Speed Shop's channel and they say they're all still friends. maybe that says something about how they view the viewers, but it seems like they all smooth things over in the end.
Weird analogy, but this reminds me of when I make music using only samples. There comes a point where it would be much easier to just record my own playing, but the whole point is to create something within a certain set of rules. It doesn't matter that some other approach might be easier, that's not the game I'm playing.
Thinking person's analogy.😊
Seems like the same argument as "what's a streetcar?". Tony's right. The original concept was pretty straightforward and would have been interesting. You talk about how yalls time is so valuable, yet your cylinder head guy has spent hundreds of hours modifying stock 318 heads. I guess his time is not as valuable. I guess he did get a bunch of youtube content out of it. Why not get a set of trick aluminum heads? It would bring more money for charity. Yall are all over the place and it makes this deal hard to watch.
It will be much clearer going forward!
Andy
I like the concept of tonys original idea. Not necessarily because its using old worn out parts but it can be applied to engines that have no aftermarket support. We did a similar build years ago with the ford 400. Now we did overbore it and cam it but when you limit yourself to factory or factory replacement parts breeds creativity. Now all that being said and no offense to tony but basically he was wanting to build it like a guy would have done back in the 80s or 90s when there wasnt much in the aftermarket for most engines. I see both sides of this and agree with both sides depending on what your end goal is. When u build an engine to the max with the original parts and give it to someone who may not completely understand its limits could cause a big problem if they push it past its goals and it comes apart thats how you get a bad reputation.
So, what if it morphed into something different, it's still all good and I like all of you just the same.
Coordinating a project like this over multiple states, with multiple people and time zones is a monumental feat in of itself.
When is Stock not really Stock? OoooOOooo Boy the "Number's Matching" crowd is going to latch onto this one pretty hard! Personally, I like the numbers that match the ones in my wallet, not the VIN Tags and Build Sheet's everyone drools over.
It's all for a good cause and I'm just happy you all are taking us along for the ride.
Thanks Brother! It's going to be awesome. I'm excited to be messing with a Mopar again
Andy
It is such a pitty to see my favourite carguys having hard feelings against each other. I hope they calm down soon.
Eh, don't look at it like that it's all good. Cant you feel the love?😁
I love so called stock builds? My 1968 302 (306) made 503 hp with all used parts but the cam and lifters. Ford Motorsports Factory replacement Rods and crank, had to find several batches of old 1986 flat top Four valve relief pistons that was factory 0.030" over, Yes, those are indeed Factory forged pistons to boot, A set of ported 1970 D0OE 351 Windsor heads by Jim Lingenfelter ( Yes, Kin on legendary John Lingenfelter) with 1.94" intake valves, and 1.60" exhaust valves, I angled milled the head from 20* stock to 18.5* ( Yes I worked at a automotive machine shop, I ported my Victor Jr intake, I bought a used rebuilt 750 Holley DP, Used Hooker SuperComp Headers, now, The cam was originally a custom ground cam for a 351W, no for a small cubic inch engine, 0.697" On the Intake and 0.703" on the Exhaust and 108 LSA, I do not know the rest of cam card, But it sounded like ProStock engine at ideal and screamed to 8800 rpm me shifting gears, my father loved driving my car but the taddle tall Tach said 9500 rpm when he drove it. I was hoping for 375 to 400 hp on my first personal build, I over shot that big time. One thing I did learn though? Time is indeed money if you Think that away, I personally don't care on the time to money part. I just love building engines period. As one person said, The super Stock/Stock eliminator class guys do alot on stock stuff thats beyond ones belief. But I learned from them on whats possible with stock parts that can be heavily modified. I also learned to get to know your local Automotive machinist, you never know what they might throw at you or what they might offer. live and learn as the late Sonny Leonard told me. Learn something new every day.
I hope this misunderstanding doesn't spoil a friendship. it's just a 318, no big deal. Mistakes have been made, doesn't matter why in the end.
As far as im concerned, though, stock was defined in the original brief. If it didn't come screwed to that engine from the factory, it wasnt stock. Just my 2c
Oh no, Tony and I are good, you know sometimes projects don't turn out the way we would like but a 318 isn't worth a friendship!
Andy
@@icetech6 a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while too.. 😁
Andy
Love all 3 these guys, but this turned into OCC episode quickly, should we consider Tony as Paul Sr? LOL
Once you threw this cylinder head guy into the mix it was apparent that the “normal guy” with a dirt floor garage couldn’t do all that will be involved with the cylinder head.
I was lucky enough to be in a couple machine shops that , yeah we built some stupid sized off the wall engines , BUT, we also had the tasks of building some engines that were for factory stock race boats and a couple F.A.S.T and Pure Stock engines .
My opinion, sometimes that skill set pulls you down into a humble mode and makes you think harder outside the box. Unfortunately some people cannot afford those multiple boxes.
His name...is " Charles Servedio" 😁👍
Andy, David, please ignore these people and continue to do your thing. I personally thank you both for the help. David’s books pointed me in the right direction 20 years ago with the Chevy stuff. His books are the closest thing to a male role model teaching me how to follow directions and take pride in doing something I had never done before. Both you guys make me sound like a crazy person when I’m around those guys who memorized the bottom lines of the jegs magazine.
Thanks for the kind words and support!
Andy
Everyone knew this wouldn’t end well
Its not over yet well maybe for Uncle Tony. If this was a NFL team Id say hes been " released to free agency..."😂
honestly, tho, if they build their engine, and Tony does his...then we the viewers win because we get more than one engine to copy.
@@alertgasper Never happen Tony isnt about doing the work. I cant beleive people dont see it. It's fairly obvious.
@@MrSwinger1 he'll get someone else in the shop to do it, as usual. and then the finger pointing will commence. what people should really see is, if it's true that these various channels are just whipping up drama and are really friends in life as claimed, what does that say about their view of us? probably collecting the youtube dollars and laughing.
@@alertgasper True very true...
Like this topic? Andy Wood will be LIVE on my channel on Friday at 8pm eastern time.
Heck yeah! It's going to be great. Y'all come on over!
Andy
Firstly guy's if you can do more video's like David's 318 rod and crank mod one's for us die hards that want to modify part's instead of buying them, that would be greatly appreciated.
Secondly, this mission impossible 318 build going pear shaped might just be the best thing for most of us low buck garage build guy's. We'll get to see David, Andy's and Charlies creation on one side and Uncle Tony's on the other. I myself can't wait to see both. The reality is for guy's like myself that might build an engine every few year's, we're likely to build something that's a combination of both philosophies.
I wish all four channels the best of luck, I love them all, but I am biased towards the mopar stuff 😉
We won't see both creations. Andy and David will most likely get theirs done, but Tony will abandon it if he ever starts.
@@Kenjh71100% spot on!
@@Kenjh71 I hope that you're wrong
Its easy to criticize when only 2 guys out of the 3 are getting their hands dirty !!!
Just where this Tony was supposed to come up with all this power at ?? On a worn out bore and pistons ?? Fact is it takes a Few Bucks to make power and have the dam thing Live !!! David or Andy didnt want a turd to be bidded upon for some poor person just to have it self destruct either Tony .
Nitrious use or some dam power adder is huge anymore . The ability to survive the first hit would be nice !!!
Stock to me also takes in whatever heads the A Engine platform had to offer in production . Without Charlies help this thing wouldnt pull a fat kid off a toilet !!! Oh yea that was somebody elses labor wasnt it ??
Look whose blown all this into a bigger pile of crap . You shouldve stuck around , did Something , and learned a little . Nice Job .....
Mr. Vizard and Andy took an idea and improved on it. I really doubt that Uncle Tony will do a version of Mission Impossible, he has a habit of not following through..
If you know nothing else, know this:
If you get into a project with UTG, you will do exactly what he says, with zero deviation or compromise, regardless of common sense or quality of build. UTG is not about quality or longevity.....he's about 1980's junkyard shenanigans. He's showcased this attitude on multiple other "collaborations" on his own channel. You hopped into bed with this snake, so don't be surprised that it's biting you now.
You got that right, cupcake. When I enter into an endeavor with someone, I am always very clear on the goals and the methods I expect to be used. I never proceed unless all parties agree to that exact outline.
From that point forward, if it deviates slightly for good reason, I'm flexible...if it takes off in a direction not in the spirit of the original outline, I step back and go hands-off.
I've done it countless times in the past, and I won't pause or hesitate for a second in the future.
Its funny watching you squirm Sanford...LOL!😁🤣😂
The project is still valid. Keep up the great work
There was a street racer that told everyone his car was all factory. He popped the hood of his 68 Firebird and I had to say yeah, the Edelbrock factory, the Holley factory and are those headers from the Doug Thorley factory? Good times.
An old timer told me a story how a guy with a 56 Chevy with an inkine 6 beat a 55 Ford in a street race...I thought Id share that. But these days is any 50 plus year old car truly stock?
it's like the joke about the museum that has the original hatchet George Washington used to chop down a cherry tree. Of course, the handle's been replaced twice and the metal end once, but hey, its all original :)
that said, AMC stamped Edelbrock intakes with a part number, and Hurst of course built specialty cars and many supercars had Hurst shifters and plenty had Holley carbs. so what is "factory" ?
I am looking forward to both this 318 engine build and Uncle Tony's 318 factory stock engine build. I'm sure most would agree us Mopar garage mechanics, and hot rodders in general, stand to learn a lot from both builds. I have already learn more than I could have on my own following Charles Servedio 318 head work and very extensive port flow data. So, all you guys are providing information that's taking the guess work out of it. I'll be building future 318 engines based on the outcome of these builds, isn't this the ultimate goal for doing these videos?
Andy, DV… I’m sorry I was disappointed at first… I completely understand the practical approach you are taking. Seems there are a lot of emotions involved from both viewers and the channels/builder involved. Kudos for doing the right thing and changing the name of the build. I absolutely love how much I have learned from Tony Andy and especially DV. You are all very gifted men at what you do and how well you teach the masses for FREE is amazing. If Tony wants to throw together a motor… I’ll watch it. If Andy and DV wanna build a motor with a few variations with the goal of gaining dependability and quality… you can take it to the bank I’ll watch that too. Love all of y’all and keep doing your thing!
I must say now this build is getting good. It makes sense to not mod stock Chrysler stuff simply because of the time and labor as mentioned. That equates to cost I agree. Also why invest all that time and labor to only miss the target horsepower goal. The decision on the way forward made makes sense.
The fact is it will be run in "stock" trim on the Dyno for a few pulls then I'm getting rid of the 2bbl junk and manifolds swapping the Cam on the Dyno and we are going to let it eat and see what it does and have fun doing it! The results will be that just the results
Andy
I love this project! There is so much to learn. For example. Watching David prepare those connecting rods was an example for all to study and apply to there engine building. No matter what you call the project it’s got a big place in engine building examples for all to think about and apply.
Thanks for the support Laut! You have always been supportive
Andy
An engine is no longer stock once you start replacing OE core parts with aftermarket performance parts. Reworking an original part is modification but still original. As in original manufacturer stock. You see this most often on "numbers matching" modified Barrett-Jackson cars.
If you rebuild your stock engine and put new parts in it is it still stock by your definition?
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Yes, so long as it's using OE parts. Now if I stick Keith Black Pistons, Edelbrock cylinder heads and a scat crank in it. That's hardly considered stock anymore. Wouldn't you agree? Now I couldn't give less of a damn What engine was built to benefit Saint Jude's, More power to you no matter what you build. But let's not twist the definition of stock in order to avoid the elephant in the room.
@peanutbutterandjammy you have just contradicted yourself. Once you get rid of the factory part numbered part it's not stock... Think about that, I could mix and match factory parts such as using Magnum 318 parts in the build but that isn't Stock for a 71 318.. They call it a trap and you can't get out..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage it's not a contradiction. I said OE parts as in a reproduction or new old stock of the original. not a mish mash from separate years or models. You know what stock means, so all this "What is stock" nonsense is pointless.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarageso Andy what your really saying is if the car is not as delivered from factory it's not stock anymore!... Just reringing the engine would make it not stock cause stock is originally as delivered.... So the stock word has to be bent.
Since Uncle Jabroni abandoned the project, build the Mission Impossible any way you choose. It's great to see that engine get some positive attention. Thanks for you efforts.
Geez, you both (Tony, Andy) make very good points on this engine build. I actually think both versions have merit. Full respect for both opinions. Just hope it doesn't lead to any problems between all of you.
No, I don't have any issue with Tony. Folks in the comments making WAY more out of it than needs to be... That is all
Andy
That is why inline engines are much more modifiable than V engines as far as them being practical because you can deck and mill all you want to or need to without running into tolerance stacking up and causing headaches and wallet aches
It is not cost effective to modify stock parts for sure, very time consuming - the amount of time David and Charles put in to modify those stock parts, phew! Very interesting videos though. Anyway, is Casper going to race bottle rocket again?
Some people have very little money but they have time to modify parts they have from a stock engine they already have or got cheap. That's the focus of Tony's channel and his original intent - take those stock parts and spend a lot of brain power and remove metal in the right places and ways to maximize the performance of those STOCK parts.
I appreciate the channel. Things evolve. We all live in a world that has to make money at the end of the day. You explained the situation. I'm happy with the common sense reasoning. Let's see what this thing will make HP wise and let's make some money for the kids. Go for it boys.
Thanks for the kind words!
It's time to get to work
Andy
Great conversation David and Andy.
I like seeing all the different ideas and opinions of engine builds.
I for one never have an issue with trying to make a better engine.
We could do this, we can do this.
But, what if we did this.
Experience and knowledge paves the way in our thought process.
Budget and time also dictates the process and the effective outcome.
Not everyone agrees all of the time.
But someone has to make a decision right or wrong how the project moves ahead.
When one donates his or her time and their doing the work for free.
I think there certainly needs to be some latitude to doing things their way.
Now their money and time is on the line.
Lets all build a Better Mouse Trap!.
Have a great day everyone.
Thanks David and Andy.
This is shaping up to almost the same plot as the movie the social network! 🤪
Honestly it's all good and I enjoy watching ALL the DIFFERENT views points and different ways to get the most with what they have
Agree!
Much like I've mentioned, I took a stock chevy 350 and built it to 780 hp at the crank. But it was 2 years of planning, researching parts, I had no help but my previous experience( 30 years of fixing and tuning every kind of engine known) and of course the relative goal of 5-600 hp. Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised by the result! However, I was very scrutinizing of the entire process including making every moving part weigh exactly the same, every piston weighed exactly the same after a little dremel work, every connecting rod, every valve, every pushrod, lifter, rocker arm etc, every valve spring was modified to have exactly the spring pressure I wanted etc, and that's why it ran so well and in a 6,000# truck it delivered 26 mpg at 60 mph and would hang the front wheels in 2nd any time I was under 30 mph because I matched everything and my trusted machinist bluprinted the block for me to make sure every lifter bore and cylinder bore and crank and cam bore was perfect before I assembled everything. That's the diffrence between a " stock untouched factory 350 and the one I painstakingly planned and executed.
Factory Appearing Stock Tire I am in total harmony with.
920 casting cylinder heads from a 1967 318 are a closed chamber design that responds well to porting and doesn't have the large pushrod hole intrusion into the port that the 302 casting has. Also, I believe the 67 318 intake and I know the 67 273 intake, was a single plane design that may respond better than the dual plane design did to porting.
Just some things to consider.
I think think thread is bringing everybody together...its majic! I even got to interact with Uncle Tony! I havnt been this giddy since I met Capt Kangaroo back in the 70s..😁😄😃😀
With all due respect, and I do respect you guys, but you've lost the plot. We wanted to see how much power you could make with the all the stock parts doing whatever you wanted with them. I wish you all the best and I hope you make tons of money for a very worthy organization but I don't care about your build. It's already been done. UT may or may not build a 318 to the original intent but if he does that's the one I'll be watching. PS: I hope Tony uses Charles's top end, beautiful work there.
1 h.p per cubic inch using only smog era 318 stock castings and is neber going to happen....its pie in the sky flying fantasy. Tony did in fact have a high horspower goal 318 horsepower out of a 180 hp smog casting 318 using only the factory stock smog castings is laughable.
Much respect, guys. Thank you for your valuable time and effort. Looking forward to the build and results.
Thanks for watching and it's going to be EPIC
Andy
I liked the idea of a guy with time, but no money, putting together the most power from a stock, clapped out 318. What I didn't consider was spinning that thing to the RPM required to get there. And I assumed junk yard factory, but higher performance parts like head, intake, exhaust,carb would be allowed, since that's more likely what someone might do.
I also assumed we would see the HP difference on a dyno as we went along.
The problem is you build a bottom end,or modify it AFTER all the other parts have been collected. So, I liked the intent, but now see the point about practicality more clearly, thanks to you. I'll follow all the channels because this is the content I enjoy.😊👍
I did an engine a few years back. ALL factory casting numbers. Decked the block, cut the heads, ported the heads, bigger valves , had to cut the intake, port the intake. Long and short of it when I was done I had an engine that looked 100% stock. All pre-1967 casting numbers. It made great power and ran great times
The new engine I just put together with all aftermarket parts makes more power and was cheaper to build.
YUP! I can wait to see that FE Fly... I definitely want to see it run..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage thank you very much, I can’t wait to get it back up and going. I miss driving it.
@frizzellracing let me know when y'all head to Shadyside next time!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage definitely, hopefully we can get up there soon to do some testing. Shadyside close to you ?
@frizzellracing I'm in Mt. Holly and SS is about an hour drive
3 tricks to raise compression + 302 roller+ Cleveland 2v OC heads + 289 rods + 351C pistons + grinding and port work + Imported boss dual plane intake + .444, 210@ .050, 115 LSA = 10.5:1 experiment. Built from lowly parts and cast off junk. It will run, and I can assure you many of the ideas and proceedures came off of RUclips; a trail of info from DV, Andy, Charlie, Tony, and countless other sources. Mission Impossible occurs in many places where ideas cant be left alone.....and the ideas have almost the same value as the final product. If not for hot rodding on the internet, my engine stand would have never been purchased.
Heck yeah! That is cool stuff
Andy
I was seriously thinking a similar project. I have the intake and maybe the heads already. Block and crank too. Very close to stock 5.0l with tons of work on the stock parts. I hate the stock cam and stock springs are a joke. Retainers could not be designed to weigh more!
@@servediocylinderheads The intake is the most exotic piece. The rest is just fiddling. If you mess with 2v heads, you will see monstrous low lift, and that is why I am going to give the stock cam a try. I think the LSA is close to what the heads would like once the pistons are .085 out of the bore and the heads are milled. Also, the stock cam will not need giant valve springs. PTV is less an issue than you might think.
at the start of this I FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT UTG MEANT. here we are debating terms & their meanings.... OK I GET IT! cuz recently i got into a spat over on a BB over the term "STOCK" when it came to how i referenced the GM reproduction L05 (1987-1995) 350 i put in my 86' ss. that is a stock factory engine unmolested long block engine & only diff is it had the port for a mech fuel pump unlike the then then ORIGINAL. in my mind ORIGINAL or factory original means WHAT LEFT THE ORIGINAL FACTORY back when. you were given a BACK WHEN factory engine and violated original terms with after market parts posing as factory parts.
i quit payin attn awhile ago. imo this was more a test upon your skills than it was ensuring the goal can be achieved. in other words if 290 hp was best you can get outta that then so be it as long as you gave it your all. oh and im sure UTG had no idea the depths you guys would have to go thru trying to get there...
to add 1 caveat. the gm FACTORY ORIGINAL ZZ4 NEVER featured in a FACTORY PRODUCTION vehichel as the L05 did.
Tony needs to get off his ass and build it thats all...
Just curious on the weight of the modified OEM rod vs. the H beam rod, it looks pretty close.
I knew Tony should have never brought St. Jude into the concept........Oh, wait.......
Hell Im happy that a 318 is getting so much attention they are good little engines. Ive been following this project since day one. I have to say I agree what you two are doing with it but? With that being said I see Tony's point as well. But in the real world if your on such a tight budget that you cant throw in at least a small add-on like the intake or for that matter even the cam since its all torn apart anyway. Then wait a little longer till you can get the parts even used parts will work. Its a good concept to try but you cant change the laws of physics even 250 to 275 HP I think is doable but only just doable with the all stock parts and it would have to be done PERFECT looking forward to the rest of the series on this little engine.
Yup. I was saying even a budget guy could scrape up a cast iron intake and 600 cfm 4 barrel I think I paid 60 bucks for a whole setup back in the late 80s.
Send tony the rods and crank dv worked on so tony can offset grind the crank to bring the factory pistons up the hole
But remember that is making a stroker 318!
You aint gonna get it without 10.5 to 1 or more C.R. and a 450 cfm carb ?
Nothing but love to all 4 channels.
"...you get to a point in a project"
...and say yes or no if you would like to be a part of it.
St. Judes and Bigger Bang for the buck using NON-STOCK parts, along with free donated High Perf parts - none of that was in Tony's original idea. His idea was to see what the result of massaging the stock parts to get as much benefit from them as possible. If you go back and watch the video with the 3 of you in David's garage, you'll see that you were all on board with massaging the stock parts, even regrinding the stock cam. I love you guys, all of you. But Tony's idea was simple. Andy and David added other goals (getting as much money for St. Judes as possible from the BUILD. and getting a High Perf engine by adding NON-STOCK parts, like you have with the rods and pistons, and the donated cam).
The part that is confusing is after agreeing, then not seeing eye to eye, now the wording in the comments is that it would've been, "cobbled" together.
Diminishing the project you agreed upon feels cheap and petty. 🤷♂️
Pivoting by using different parts is one thing, but yall are trying to explain it away by using the very shortcomings that made the project interesting.
Awesome, I can’t wait to see the results! Those new rods look really nice and with just ‘enough extra length to make the 318 come to life…I’ll be in the market for some of those myself real soon! I really enjoyed seeing how David transformed those stock rods and the stock crankshaft into race worthy pieces just to know that it could be done, It was very impressive! I also know that he has a lot of tasks and teaching that his time would be better invested doing. When we get right down to it…the truth is that just because David Vizard (a legend) could take those stock pieces and turn them into race ready works of art doesn’t mean that I or 95% of the population could do the same! I say that as a car guy who rebuilds cars for a living and has “assembled” many engines, and I’m being honest! The idea is inspiring no doubt but it’s not something that the weekend warrior could do by any means. Now, I could absolutely buy the rods and pistons with a little saving 100%. I’m reminded of the guys who run the (F.A.S.T. appearing Stock tires) class, you pop the hood and it appears to be a bone stock 426 hemi, with stock exhaust manifolds, stock intake, etc yet once you crack it open it has the ultimate hoard of go fast goodies; stroker crank, pistons, crank scraper, etc etc hidden inside…and it runs 9’s!!! It’s very impressive all the same and it’s not like after hurting the competitors feelings you have to tear it down to prove anything 🤷🏻♂️. Now, if I owned a custom engine shop and I wanted to do see what could be done with my downtime..maybe, but for anyone else the cost in machine shop hours would be 3x what the price of good aftermarket parts would be. There have been times when somebody will bring me a rust bucket from a field wanting it rebuilt. I’ll tell them hey I could find you a better candidate to start with brother;” and they will stand by their choice because of its sentimental or nostalgic value. I understand the principle of things. I’ve also witnessed “the particular details” create a ton of headache,, heartache, and frustration that was unnecessary. Where’s the easy button? 😂
There's no real dispute here. Drama for views.
Andy , first of all ...good video , thank you . I heard you say you cant wait for Uncle T to do his original version and get 300 horsepower ? Well , you're gonna have to wait , and a long , long time too ! I never thought for a minute that it could be done with the stock bodied carburetor . Your version and Uncle Tonys version will both be fun to watch though .
You still are giving options on people that want to build their own engine. So no big deal.
That is how we see it Don, the difference is now the smoke is clearing we can get the ball moving on this!
Thanks for watching
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Yes Sir!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage I'm a big fan of Charlie. He's helped out alot. Taking alot of pressure off of you guys helping the progress along. I'm glad you included him!
@@dondotterer24 he has put more time in 318 heads than any one person on the planet at this point! I want to show folks how good his work is. And he is a really good guy too
Andy
I agree
I understand where the viewpoints stand, and respect DV's and Andy's plan. The rods will not by construction create a huge power difference. The minor length increase will raise compression and probably mixture motion in the cylinder for good combustion. The piston conforms to rebuild dimensions. So when they install OEM casting heads, intake and carb that have been massaged, and test it, they fullfill the direction of the original premise. What happens after is aimed at maximizing the fundraiser for St Judes.
We wanted to watch mission impossible not another star trek movie. GOD bless you all on your projects.
Since Tony has already stated that he will do a 318 in the original ideas spirit, perhaps using heads he ports himself etc, would it be possible that you together dyno both engines in the same dyno? Would still be nice to see the difference of a low buck, home made effort and an all out serious build up with the same restrictions (ie. stock head castings and valve size, factory 2 bbl intake and carb, and 318 exhaust manifolds). I thik that would be great. And since you seem to have a body where to put the engine, I guess Tony might have one too; time for Drag Racing?
I really doubt that Uncle Tony will do a version of Mission Impossible, he has a habit of not following through..
In industry maintenance there's a saying i was told 30 years ago thinking in 3D determination design and denaro
Last winter I build a 427 bbc with a 454 block and 369 crank. I used the stalk 454 rods with a set of old forged dome 427 pistons I found on market place. If I put the motor together as it was there would have been lots of weight needed to be added to the crank for balancing. Instead I spent a entire weeks worth of nights, being super tired for work and I worked the rods as you showed. Saved me money buying new rods but also saved a few 100 bucks when I got the crank balanced, because I balanced the rods myself and I took enough weight out of them that the crank was to heavy and didn’t need material added just removed.
I used some stock 289 rods for a 302 build and had to remove some weight. I did what I saw DV do and had a gram scale tell me when I was done. Mission Impossible is helpful even with the storm of discontent it stirred up.
I like Tony’s idea in theory for the purpose of RUclips entertainment. On the idea that this is the way the little guy can champion a fast engine out of what he has, I think it is a terrible idea. You are just trading the cost of parts for extreme machine work. So unless our theoretical poor kiddo has a dad with a machine shop, this ain’t going to work on the cheap. Around where I live it is hard to get a machine shop that isn’t a flake, and I would like to avoid using one if and when reasonably possible. But the Mission Impossible idea is still a GREAT idea for clicks and views, and who wouldn’t want to see an engine meet Tony’s goals with all stock parts.
Exactly well said!
Andy
another way to increase comp is a thinner head gasket
Correct. Thinner gasket will increase compression. Except chrysler used a steel shim head gasket factory. Doesn't get any thinner than that. Pistons are too deep in the hole from the factory for compression or quench. Thats the value of what they have shown with those longer rods
Yeah you are exactly right.
It can be done with offset grinding the crank but once you do that it isn't a 318 anymore too.. having to bore the block is a must
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage - offset grinding the crank was discussed in the initial video. Sure, it's not a 318 any more, but it's still a stock engine with stock parts that have been modified. Stop making up stuff to rationalize your decision to not just do what you guys talked about in the original video.
I’ll be honest. I don’t care about the 318 at all. The knowledge that I’ve learned in these videos cannot be priced.
Go for it guys, glad you'll didn't let your different ideas come between you guys.
It's hard to please everyone the end results will be 5he Game changer .👍👍
This is a great project regardless of any misunderstanding or lack of clarity on anyone's part. Tony and you two are very knowledgeable and experienced and I am certain that all of us learn from all of you. I know my experience porting my GT40 heads for my old '83 Mustang used many of the tips, concepts and tricks from your videos. I also have learned several things from Tony. Very enjoyable content indeed!
Forget the original intent , and just build a .030 over 318 , with a DV speced cam , Charlie's heads , and try a few manifolds and carbs on 'er . Also one or two of the 2 barrels for kicks . Btw, who is going to do the rest of that grinding in the crankcase ,,, ?
Ok fellas. First...the mission impossible built is going on three years. The videos on massaging factory parts like the crank and rods were good. Even charles. Cylinder head and intake mods are somewhat reasonable.
Things have gotten out of control from your perspectives. Place the scientific tools down and do the build with nothing but tools a guy can get from harbor freight. No flow benches, no crank balancer, no valve grinders.
That is what the viewers are looking for.
Follow that direction, and the views and money will flow in.
Unfortunately heavily modifying all the standard components to the extreme level DV can improve them chews up cubic miles of time
About 30 000 days is all we get on average
parts useage: factory unmodified (factory stock), factory modified, aftermarket. the mission 318 was intended to be factory modified, like ported factory heads, ported factory intake, ported factory 2v carb etc. Had those terms been used more carefully, it would have been clearer to the audience. As has been said before, 400 hp can be obtained in a 318 using nearly all aftermarket parts, but what could be done with factory-modified only? That is what the original intent was supposed to be.
If you watched the Video that is exactly what we are still doing! Ported 675 casting heads Stock intake and a BBD carb but it won't remain in that configuration on the Dyno once we have obtained those numbers then we are swinging for the fence and going for more than 400hp! Alot more
Andy
I get where you’re both coming from. Two completely different projects with two completely different goals. I think you were both correct to part ways on this one. Hopefully you guys will do something in the future?the only issue I see with Tony’s is you can pull base circle out of a cam and change profiles but how can you use the stock springs?
Having said that I’m disappointed I didn’t get to see what DV could have done with all stock parts. But in the name of people getting a good engine from a charity your decision makes the most sense in this situation.
"The main reason we are doing this is for St Judes" Well.....That was never the intent. And to mock the project by saying "if you want a stock engine go buy a haynes manual" goes to show how you care about your audience. Yall dont care about the viewers, youre just trying to make this a money grab to recover your time and money. "We do care about St. Judes" Yes lets try and gaslight our audience into donating for an engine they wont get. Clearly trying to recoup money at this point and using St Judes name to do it is crazy. I would say good luck in the future but i wouldnt want to lie to you like you all did your viewers. "Im gonna have my name on it" LOL, ill make sure to avoid anything with your name on it in the future as I now know where the intent comes from.
Bye
C'mon dudes , stock is stock . (Minus what you can shave)😊
I'm not using 50 year worn out parts for a build... Not happening
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Andy must have been traumatized by watching 50 year old worn out parts drive out of his life on the drag strip
@jimmybravo7777 yeah that's it 🤣🤣🤣
@@UnityMotorSportsGarageThere ya go! Ya said it! Good! Only if you said that a year ago...
I made that mistake very early on. The poor fitting pistons and valve guides let oil into the chamber. It was beaten and detonated itself to death. Never again. @@UnityMotorSportsGarage
Please, please, please just put a junk 130hp 318 on the dyno, and stop talking about it for 20 videos.Give us some dyno data from upgrades. No-one cares about arguments with uncle tony. Please start the dyno testing!!!!!
I've been otherwise occupied, so I'm just getting up to speed on the scattering of 'Mission Impossible'.
I'm disappointed that it's gone off the rails from its original intention - and I'm not surprised that Uncle Tony has a bit of an attitude, he's not fond of his ideas discarded nor his word challenged. UT is a truly knowledgeable man, and that knowledge runs far and wide, so his qualifications more than qualify.
I'd imagine that if I placed one person responsible for the project going off in some odd direction, it would primarily be Mr. Vizard. I've followed David's work since the '80s, and he is incredibly knowledgeable, and talented, has no concept of thinking "inside the box" and presents as OCD (lol). David demonstrates this by his old school process of reworking the stock rod - it's an excellent example of how we used to modify rods when there were no aftermarkets, or they were priced out of reach.
That much said, on an engine that won't see 300hp, the modifications are overkill.
The cylinder head specialist's work fits that description as well.
With this benefit auction for St. Judes now into play, I understand the change in direction, and it's potential to help St. Jude's, but I'm still disappointed that the whole direction of the project changes.
Some will debate whether or not it's really changed, but by its initial intent, it's no longer following its intent.
I wish the best in the effort to benefit the patients of St. Jude, and respect the effort, it just a shame we lost the true intent of the project along the way.
Fine, build a 318 with after market parts, sell it, and give the money to St. Jude's. I wish you well. Just don't give us a lot of BS about getting the most from a stock engine with stock parts and pull the rug out from under us. I can't afford after market parts and was super excited about mission impossible only to be super disappointed. They say time is money. Well I must be rich because I have lots of time.
I can tell you haven't watched the video!
Andy
I can tell you I did watched the video. Carry on.@@UnityMotorSportsGarage
@@joe-hp4nk 👍
STOCK IS STOCK CUT GRIND & MEASURE.... TO ADD POWER TO STOCK ..........ONLY,,,,,,ORIGINAL PARTS
👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀 AND SEE WHAT U GET NOT HOW MUCH ,,,THAT WAS TONYS PLAN THAT WAS
ALLOWED TO GO A STRAY ,,,BUT THE NEW PLAN IS VERY GOOD ALSO KEEP GOING
No you lost the plot on this one ! How your are double down .
Kit from down under
For me I was looking forward to watching this and maybe picking up some knowledge on possibilities of modifying or manipulating factory parts for not just HP gain but better endurance, quicker revving etc. and making what the factory made to be better. I personally would like to have seen all factory parts starting with the engine block deburred, oil gallies modified, crankshaft, rods, pistons, pins, rings, lightened. Oil pump mods, anything possible with a cam even if it required ideas of scrounging a wrecking yard for better cam that would fit the smaller engine displacement. Possibly illing in extra valve reliefs are if enough room regroove for a thinner top ring. I wouldn't expect anyone to weld and hand grind a cam, but it has been done. Some rods has been offset bored on small end and bushings to give longer rod length. David has had many books with ideas that I would like to have seen actually been done. Doing Brazinski type mods to the intake, and any secret/mods to a factory carb. Charlie has done exceptional work with the heads, but with his mods and only using factory larger valves for that brad engine even again from a wrecking yard possibility I think would have been cooler. I understand it would take many more hours are having more volunteers helping to be easier and ultimately it is about money for the St Jude's Childrens Hospital. But to have a chance at bidding on a engine like above built by all of ya'll and things listed above, I would much more rather bid on are buy a possible lesser HP engine like that than the current one. I personally would have bid far more for more for a custom one like listed above. But I admire you all and will continue watching the build and if ya'll ever do build like above, I would definitely bid on it, maybe there will be a next time.
"....the problem with mission impossible..."
can clearly be seen in the vid.
Yeah like the pistons that had hammer marks in them and the bent crank...
Andy
GOALS are a desire not a MUST....cuz success & failure are both possible.
And Intentions can change
Andy
So like UTG has alienated how many people so far? I'm losing count , he should come with a hazmat placard.
⚠
I really doubt that Uncle Tony will do a version of Mission Impossible, he has a habit of not following through..
Ha ha well it's funny how he came here replying to people's comments that he has blocked on his channel. If you watch his channels comments it's like everyone thinks he's great. That's a created facade ...reality is alot of people are on to him.
Anybody ever notice that any person that has ever been involved with UT, is no longer involved with UT. Ever notice that all these projects and events UT is supposed to go to or complete never happen. Hmmmmmm . He always has a problem with everything that everyone is doing yet does nothing but makes talking videos himself. He has a garage to make it look like UTG. Yet, no work is being done there. Lol
I really doubt that Uncle Tony will do a version of Mission Impossible, he has a habit of not following through..
You nailed it...
Listen his channel is successful, you can't take that away from him. But it's a channel of talking about things , not doing things. He always says he's gonna do this or that, but unless someone else is doing the work, it's not gonna happen. Then the people that come in to do work, dissappear very shortly after.
@@lonewolf744 Tony's channel should be called the All Talk and No Action channel.
All Talk @@lonewolf744
I need to understand if when you say "stock" do you mean "stock" or do you mean oem? Becouse you can have oem but not stock? Oem parts can be modified & not be "stock". Or you can have unaltered oem that remains "stock".
It was supposed to be stock parts or 'true to their original design', as Uncle Tony states in his video.
Well , it is...sorta...😁
Its the journey not the destination. Your jumping on a airplane because you don't have the time to drive the journey. Just give us a heads up when it goes to dyno, meet you at the destination.
This experiment is next to impossible to acheive for a high volume race engine shop, the cost in hours doing the modifications needed is immense and I'm sure that someone else could do this with time on their hands, it appears to me that David and his crew have no time to modify the stock parts for optimum performance. Otherwise they would.
I see this subject from both sides, because I've been there with many brands of engine, mostly GM small blocks, and ford 302/ 289/ 351 w and a few old hemis like the 392 which I consider an icon. I've never built a 318, I've only slapped on factory mopar add one like cams, M1 single planes and thermoquads because those things im very good at. Never felt the need to max out a 318 to the limit because they were all my daily drivers but I have gotten some interesting results! The best mopars are 1974 and earlier, stout blocks, great heads, and almost indestructible bottom ends from the factory, after that they were cast in Mexico and the foundries there were not as good at quality control when it come to core shift, ive had 3 blocks fail that were cast down south because the cylinder wall cracked and imploded while running! So now I don't bother with anything newer than 1974 small blocks of any brand for building.
VW offroad limited class racers, regularly take a 50 hp 1585cc air cooled engine and make 100hp with a cam change, an exhaust and "Tricks".
Love what you do to increase value and output does not make sense to so many hours on parts you can get free from the manufacturer