Cas really does not want the apocalypse fought so he really believes he needs the power of the souls from purgatory to fight Raphael. He really does need the power because he cannot defeat a Archangel without it but Cas knows he is making a bad move to do it so his internal struggle between right/wrong especially with being what he is, is a very tough struggle for Cas! I love that this episode showed that he’s wrestling with between doing what’s right & what’s wrong
I really liked this episode. It kind of felt like Cass' confession. Cass did pull Sam from Hell but he did not know he was soulless until he examined him. Cass lied to the boys & this is a biggie! He is struggling with this so much, trying to be loyal to them & to save Heaven. There was nothing they could do to help him win his war but this is a bad situation all the way around. Crowley called Cass "the angel of Thursday". Eric Kripke Googled angel of Thursday because Supernatural was on Thursday night & he found Cassiel & that's how he came up with Castiel's name. Great reaction. I enjoy them & you so much.
I remember a quote, I think it was in this episode: "If I knew then what I know now I would have said: Freedom is a length of rope, God wants you to hang yourself by it."
I don't think Cas' problem was not having the time to explain himself. We know he initally wanted to go to Dean, but stopped himself because Dean was living a peaceful life with Lisa, and he didn't want to ask more of him. He then goes to work with Crowley on a risky plan, but one that's the only plan they've got. By the time Dean is dragged away from his life with Lisa, Cas is already pretty deeply involved with Crowley's plan. Why not come clean about it then though? I see multiple reasons that might play a part. Cas might fear that they would intervene, which could compromise the plan, or put them in danger. Cas might worry that the plan would be discovered by Raphael should Dean, Sam and Bobby learn of it; remember one of Raphael's supporters appeared in episode 3 right as Cas mentioned Balthazar, so clearly they could be spied upon, and the more people know and talk about something, the more likely it is to get out, and he didn't even tell his fierce supporter Rachel. And finally, Cas might fear losing their friendship. All these might play a part to different extends. I think it's clear from this episode that Cas is very questioning of his own motives. When killing the demons searching for monsters for Crowley, he says he did it to protect the brothers ... or to protect himself, he no longer knows. He mentions how his intentions used to be so pure, how he can see now that he has been prideful. So overall, I think Cas has a mixture of selfish, pragmatic and caring reasons for not telling them about his plan; I think Cas cares about his motivations but struggles with differentiating them; and I think it's highly likely that his selfish worry about losing their friendship grew the further along he went with the secrecy and lies. I think it's fair to criticize Cas for not coming clean sooner and just dealing with whatever reaction it causes, but I personally feel very understanding of why he didn't, especially not when in the midst of dealing with a civil war. And I especially get it, if the reaction we do see is close to what Cas might have feared. Because they really aren't being fair I think. Dean says, with much passion and conviction, that what they don't do is go "making another deal with the devil", even though they all worked with Crowley just last season. They say Cas' plan is wrong because they don't know what could potentially be let out of Purgatory, and because Cas containing the souls is risky; but they were willing to let Sam attempt to contain the literal devil after drinking gallons of demon blood, on the faint, faint hope that Sam might be able to overpower the devil himself. If that didn't work, the devil would have his chosen vessel, and the Apocalypse would start with the devil having the advantage, unless Dean says yes to Michael real quick. That's incredible risky, but they were desperate and had nothing else they felt they could try, this was seemingly the last resort. Now Cas is facing another archangel that wants the Apocalypse to happen, all the old options are still as exhausted as they were last season, the stakes just has high, with no option of using the same trick twice ... and Cas isn't allowed to run a risky plan, because somehow they'll find another way? Sure would love to hear what other way you didn't attempt last season before resorting to Sam throwing himself in the Cage with Lucifer for all eternity, very interesting!
I can understand why Cas teamed up with Crowley and I don’t fault him for that. What I do hold against him is Soulless Sam. He brought him back Soulless and let him roam wild, now true he didn’t know Sam didn’t have his soul but once he did he lied to Dean about and tried to stop him from getting his brothers soul back just so his best friend wouldn’t know of his mistake
When you say "just so his best friend wouldn't know of his mistake", I'm curious if you base that on something I don't remember, because I can't recall a point where we learn that Cas didn't actually believe what he told Dean about the potential consequences of getting Sam's soul back. I'm not denying that it's possible, but is it hard canon or an interpretation?
excellent episode for some information, but I did hate to see the boys get hurt so deeply. I might get some hate for this opinion but this is the episode that made me less of a Castiel fan, not even so much because of his betrayal but it changed the character away from the mysterious angel I enjoyed. But all in all an important episode for this transitional season.
Cas really does not want the apocalypse fought so he really believes he needs the power of the souls from purgatory to fight Raphael. He really does need the power because he cannot defeat a Archangel without it but Cas knows he is making a bad move to do it so his internal struggle between right/wrong especially with being what he is, is a very tough struggle for Cas! I love that this episode showed that he’s wrestling with between doing what’s right & what’s wrong
I really liked this episode. It kind of felt like Cass' confession. Cass did pull Sam from Hell but he did not know he was soulless until he examined him. Cass lied to the boys & this is a biggie! He is struggling with this so much, trying to be loyal to them & to save Heaven. There was nothing they could do to help him win his war but this is a bad situation all the way around. Crowley called Cass "the angel of Thursday". Eric Kripke Googled angel of Thursday because Supernatural was on Thursday night & he found Cassiel & that's how he came up with Castiel's name. Great reaction. I enjoy them & you so much.
I remember a quote, I think it was in this episode: "If I knew then what I know now I would have said: Freedom is a length of rope, God wants you to hang yourself by it."
Cas team 100% with this
I don't think Cas' problem was not having the time to explain himself. We know he initally wanted to go to Dean, but stopped himself because Dean was living a peaceful life with Lisa, and he didn't want to ask more of him. He then goes to work with Crowley on a risky plan, but one that's the only plan they've got. By the time Dean is dragged away from his life with Lisa, Cas is already pretty deeply involved with Crowley's plan. Why not come clean about it then though? I see multiple reasons that might play a part. Cas might fear that they would intervene, which could compromise the plan, or put them in danger. Cas might worry that the plan would be discovered by Raphael should Dean, Sam and Bobby learn of it; remember one of Raphael's supporters appeared in episode 3 right as Cas mentioned Balthazar, so clearly they could be spied upon, and the more people know and talk about something, the more likely it is to get out, and he didn't even tell his fierce supporter Rachel. And finally, Cas might fear losing their friendship.
All these might play a part to different extends. I think it's clear from this episode that Cas is very questioning of his own motives. When killing the demons searching for monsters for Crowley, he says he did it to protect the brothers ... or to protect himself, he no longer knows. He mentions how his intentions used to be so pure, how he can see now that he has been prideful.
So overall, I think Cas has a mixture of selfish, pragmatic and caring reasons for not telling them about his plan; I think Cas cares about his motivations but struggles with differentiating them; and I think it's highly likely that his selfish worry about losing their friendship grew the further along he went with the secrecy and lies.
I think it's fair to criticize Cas for not coming clean sooner and just dealing with whatever reaction it causes, but I personally feel very understanding of why he didn't, especially not when in the midst of dealing with a civil war. And I especially get it, if the reaction we do see is close to what Cas might have feared. Because they really aren't being fair I think. Dean says, with much passion and conviction, that what they don't do is go "making another deal with the devil", even though they all worked with Crowley just last season. They say Cas' plan is wrong because they don't know what could potentially be let out of Purgatory, and because Cas containing the souls is risky; but they were willing to let Sam attempt to contain the literal devil after drinking gallons of demon blood, on the faint, faint hope that Sam might be able to overpower the devil himself. If that didn't work, the devil would have his chosen vessel, and the Apocalypse would start with the devil having the advantage, unless Dean says yes to Michael real quick. That's incredible risky, but they were desperate and had nothing else they felt they could try, this was seemingly the last resort. Now Cas is facing another archangel that wants the Apocalypse to happen, all the old options are still as exhausted as they were last season, the stakes just has high, with no option of using the same trick twice ... and Cas isn't allowed to run a risky plan, because somehow they'll find another way? Sure would love to hear what other way you didn't attempt last season before resorting to Sam throwing himself in the Cage with Lucifer for all eternity, very interesting!
I can understand why Cas teamed up with Crowley and I don’t fault him for that. What I do hold against him is Soulless Sam. He brought him back Soulless and let him roam wild, now true he didn’t know Sam didn’t have his soul but once he did he lied to Dean about and tried to stop him from getting his brothers soul back just so his best friend wouldn’t know of his mistake
How would they have discovered his secret if Sam's soul was returned to him?
When you say "just so his best friend wouldn't know of his mistake", I'm curious if you base that on something I don't remember, because I can't recall a point where we learn that Cas didn't actually believe what he told Dean about the potential consequences of getting Sam's soul back. I'm not denying that it's possible, but is it hard canon or an interpretation?
excellent episode for some information, but I did hate to see the boys get hurt so deeply. I might get some hate for this opinion but this is the episode that made me less of a Castiel fan, not even so much because of his betrayal but it changed the character away from the mysterious angel I enjoyed. But all in all an important episode for this transitional season.
They were wayyyyy too hard on Cas.