Some timestamps: 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:43 Darby's books 00:03:10 Darby's background 00:14:10 Sources of the elements 00:20:49 Plato, elements, triplicities 00:30:50 Aristotle and natural place 00:34:56 Archetypal qualities 00:43:40 Hot, cold, wet, dry qualities 00:54:29 Water signs 01:02:17 Air and fire signs 01:18:15 Element imbalances 01:24:15 Cancer Capricorn 01:30:35 Virgo Pisces 01:39:30 Taurus Scorpio 01:57:26 Aries Libra 02:07:30 Closing remarks
📚 Books mentioned, and more. 4:22 Dane Rudhyar - Speed of Life Authors Sun, Moon & Rising Signs: ♈️ in 4th , ♒️ in 3rd & ♐️ is in 1st. 4:43 Isabel M Hickey Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs : ♌️9th , ♋️8th & ♏️ in 1st. 4:46 Frances Sakoian Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs : ♎️1st , ♍️12th& ♎️ is in 1st. 4:45 Louis Acker Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs : ( Birth chart unfound ) He is alive today about to experience his 3rd Saturn return and currently in his 11th house prefection year. The speakers : Darby Costello has published 5 books. ( chart not found ) Chris Brennan has published a book on Hellenistic Astrology. Sun, Moon & Rising Signs: ♏️9th, Moon& Rising Conjunct ♒️ in1st
Brilliant conversation. So enjoyable. Thanks again for all the work you do. I have Sun in Cancer and 10th H. Pisces. I worked as spiritual care chaplain in long term care . Management was always after my supervisor as to "what is it she does?" Because the 'work' I did didn't fit into their time and program management paperwork. When I was about to retire, my supervisor told them: When she leaves, you'll understand what she did. And that was true. After I had been gone for over a year some management people were still trying to get me to go back. I had a resident once wave me over to where she was sitting. She motioned me down so she could speak more closely. She said, "I see what you do ?" Slightly alarmed, I said, "What do you see?" And she said, "You fill in the gaps."
I'm also from Boston and started learning astrology then also. Studied Rudhyar, Isabelle and Jung. I'm 77 and still the only astrology books I saved to keep on my boat are those three. I didn't become an astrologer but do follow my transits. I enjoyed this so much simply because so little is written on the elements. So a lot of clarity. Thank you so much for this Chris and Darby.
I paused at 1:33:32, where you are speaking of Virgo as the practical earth sign. I completely agree! I am a VIRGO SUN/VIRGO MERCURY in the 7th whole sign house, with MARS CAPRICORN/MOON CAPRICORN in the 11th whole sign house. Practicality, details, timing, planning, and how that plays into relationships with others is a big part of my life. Whenever my friends speak to me about their difficulties, it is very difficult for me to HOLD BACK from offering practical information or tips to assist them! Luckily I have Pisces rising conjunct Jupiter so I can feel and listen to the "wordless", poetic, and ethereal resonances!
What a truly inspirational woman. I’m only 25 minutes in and I’m absolutely blown away by the theories and ideas thrown about. Thank you, Chris, and everyone else working on this podcast in helping guide me in my studies.
Fabulous episode. Darby has such a gracious attitude articulating carefully her ideas to be as close as possible to her vision of the elements 💜 Thank you Chris for gifting us with the most brilliant teachers 🙏
Chris you bring out the best of everyone you interview. You are so gifted and a gift to all your viewers. Thank you. This (and so many others) was informative and fun. 👏🙏🏼
I don't know if it is about times or culture or just her individual case, but she has clear examples and acquaintances for everything she says and that feels so humane; the sort of humane which is not present now a days despite of more and more people on earth.
One of my favourite podcast episodes! I love all the episodes that Chris has been making, but this one brought just so much joy and insight, I can not express my gratitude enough to both Chris and Darby 🌻🌻🌻
low key a great episode. i always appreciate going back to basics and cementing the basics into your foundation. makes interpretation come more naturally.
I like how Darby personified the Elements through people she knows. I'm an Air sun sign with lots of Earth planets in my chart and I feel more grounded than airy.
Really insightful! I hope Darby Costello can come on the podcast more times. I like how she explains things in a completely different way than others I have heard on the podcast and it gives me new insights to hear her explain things in ways that are new to me.
Listened to this on the Patreon side and it was an awesome podcast. Thanks for having Darby on. This topic really helps to further expand understanding and comprehension of the signs, planets, and houses. Great stuff.
31:48 🔥 Yes. This answers you firey question about how to bring fire "down". Fire needs fuel, such as your attention. It holds our attention and burns it up. But we need to turn the attention inward/downward in order to bring fire to a useful purpose. So, it must be "articulated". 🌬️ Fire will calm down and give its own attention if it senses that you're going to provide it with something else to burn. A new direction to run. Wonderful... 35:47 Yes. Fire and Water need to be _Interpreted._ I'm giving alot of my Airey attention right now to the "Sense-Making" movement. It interprets both external events which are constantly competing for (sucking up) our Attention as well as interior processes which tend to hide (sink away) from our Attention. But most importantly, it is being reflected back at itself so as to refine its own processes and become less easy to manipulate. 1:33:10 omg... this section explains my Jupiter so much... 😢 He is so frustrated and unhappy...
1:21:00 I have 5 planets in Libra in the 5th house. I can relate to the comment of people with planets in their 7th and being alone. I spent almost half my life giving to others, I'm now at the point where I want to learn more about myself, and need to be away from others to do so. I'm married but need a certain amount of time to myself or I become agitated.
Never thought about this way, love and strife together, which then stabilizes elements, this is great thinking!!! Awesome conversation!!! Instigating and full of new information i've never heard of before. great!
I bought the books when they came out. Hardbound astrology books were not common. This is making me feel old. The material is timeless. Thank you for having this podcast.
This is the most impressive podcast, for me- I fell in love with Darby's thoughts and communication- I got hooked when DC hesitated to accept that water is 'adjustable' shaped by 'the container...its craving for Union can make us see that as obvious, but it's much more than that- when water adjust /to fulfil its need/ but is not 'comfortable' it can become resentful & passive aggressive...AND yes, every strong water person touches you on some deeper, pre-verbal as DC said, level. Thank you to both of you~
In a time of speed, catchy soundbites and little commitment, it is a true delight to come across this format. A joy to listen to, and so valuable in terms of reflection, learning and understanding. Thank you for the gift of wisdom built on true research and experience, this is so so valuable!
Thank you for all of your podcasts. So much information and connect-ability brought to mind ...part of the air sign 'speaking' is inherently using air.
Dang I wish I had as many friends as this lady!!! 😂❤️ one of my favourite podcasts!! Such simple, fascinating ideas! Thank you 🙏🏼 I’m water sun & moon with fire rising! I feel like I am steam, wet heat, more water than heat, humid, cleansing, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes drowning or heavy with certain moods, hard to grasp or contain. my 8th house Pisces stellium is expansive & deep. My fire helps motivate me to rise again after exploring the emotional watery depths. I agree that the fire & water both speak languages that are not intelligible in this realm, just as you both spoke about. I am learning to translate :) To add about Taurus & Scorpio receiving gifts, I think Scorpio receives their gifts through intimate emotional exchange- that is our currency (I’m a Scorpio moon), while Taurus is satisfied to receive tangible gifts that cost physical money or time or effort.
This totally makes sense. Having fairly even elements, from my experience, I find I think creatively, process emotionally, discuss selectively and implement practically. Sometimes this helps, at times, chronically stuck. The chronically stuck is very much the emotional quality of water element.
I have 5 planets in fire which make up a natal grand fire trine... I do start things strong and the burn out...this grand trine is from the 10th(aries moon) 6th (sagittarius mercury mars and neptune) and jupiter in leo in the 2nd. It's a lot of creative and sexual energy that sometimes I cant use in a practical way.
Prometheus Unbound that’s kinda interesting. I have Leo moon in the 10th, (empty) Aries 6th house, and Sagittarius 2nd with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. I have a million ideas (Neptune), but give up too easily (Uranus randomly getting bored), Saturn in 2nd helps me to still set high standards (plus Aries in 6th). I kick myself if I fail (Leo moon in 10th). I’m noticing lately how my Saturn/Uranus in the 2nd house are opposed my Chiron in the 8th. Could explain a lot regarding money, work and healing negative karma.
I loved this so much! The talk about water in particular (I'm a Scorpio sun&rising) really helped me to see myself and my role in relationships differently/more fully.
30:40 water and fire is a steam engine. Nothing is more practical. That’s the paradox. Often the progressed element is the complimentary element for achieving balance and managing momentum.
This entire discussion was so fascinating and helpful! I really understand the elements on a whole new level now! I loved when she talked about her interest in earth & fire people as I have moon & mercury in aries, jupiter in leo, sun in taurus, virgo ascendent & uranus/neptune/NN conjunction in capricorn. All creating tight trines! Her words really resonated as I am a visual artist who uses every kind of earth material in my art!!! I am also a chef! (Earth + fire!) Thank God for my venus, mars & pluto water placements to cool me down 😅 Appreciate your consistent creation of quality educational content!
Chris and Darby thank you. What an interesting conversation! Elements and triplicities, the whole lot. I loved it. The best astrological explanation I have ever heard of the relationship with sign opposites. Darby, I loved your experiential tid-bits of the lived experiences of your friends that gave so much meaning to the conversation. Chris, I love the way you share astrology in all its unusual, historical and groundbreaking ways that bring meaning, groundedness in simple articulation that all can digest and understand. More of it please. Chris, please bring back Darby on similar conversation, it was wonderful, as it made my chart and all my relating with others make so much sense, even where I need to do more in close relationship being a Virgo sun, Cap moon with Pisces rising. thank you! Great stuff.
I am mostly mud here. lol. Water and earth. Libra in Venus is the only air and the only fire is Aries in Saturn. However I am a double Scorpio (watery martian mars) with Pisces Moon and Warrior Mars in Capricorn. I love my routines at home. My Pisces Moon is in the 4th house and Mars likes to get the work done. The Sun is in the 12th. I could isolate myself all day at home and be happy about it while still getting my work done. After my work, I love to do the things I enjoy. Saturn in the 5th house there is no joy until the work is done. It is hard for me not to be responsible. I have a stellium in Virgo as well.
I'm a venus pisces and around 1hr 35 spot on with the giving of self going unnoticed and then I drop the whole relationship over years of resentment! Thank you for shining light on that shadow for me xx
Thank you both! So interesting to hear of her journey. I was born in 68, with my moon between Pluto and Uranus. I’ve been interested in astrology since I as 17. That time was definitely a resurgence of interest in astrology ☀️🌙
The majority of my chart is fire, mostly Aries, and a bit of earth. What she says about fire seeing things and then needs to ground them in this dimension completely resonates. Creative ideas and visions flow through me near constantly and it’s difficult to keep up, or to focus on existing projects as new ideas are also blooming. My latest venture has been into the world of stained glass and it feels like I’ve found the perfect medium. I am immersing myself in learning as many skills as I can to be able to bring these visions to life. Feels like I’m finally getting the knack for how to work with this energy in a productive and satisfying way. 💛
Stellium in mutable fire makes hard to focus on one thing for a longer time including developing daily routine healthy habits like exercising. On a positive side it means adaptability in the crisis situations when things change, non-attachment to system or relationships other people get used to. But eqally important element in me is water - moon in pisces first house that makes trine with jupiter in scorpio. Inside I am fire but other people don't know it because outside I am water. This inner fire and outer calmness is especially amplified by exalted mars in twelfth house. 12th house is a carcer (prison) that doesn't let anger (mars) to go out. So i never explode on other people however bad they are.
Such an insightful conversation, thank you both for sharing! 🙏🏼❤ I have a Cancer Ascendant, the Sun, Mars and Pluto in Scorpio in the 4th house and the Moon in Pisces in the 8th house. 🌊 My poor Mercury in Sagittarius suffers sometimes, but I have found expressing myself through creativity, Martial Arts and meditation very helpful. ☺️
Wonderful!!Thank u for this beautiful show!It is such a joy for me to listen and learn from ur podcast,and this show particularly is supberb!She is one I resonate with in her amazing feelings she express's while describing how she came to write about the beautiful Elements.Thank u again.
This was very helpful to understanding why others are the way they are. As and Aries I often get frustrated with water types - with the unknowing that Darby described of why they do what they do and feel what they feel so not conscious and coming from this feeling level that they cannot articulate. I was married to a Cancer Sun Aries Moon man for 26 years, but then, I have Venus is Taurus - Ha - very loyal and dependable - and he was a fabulous cook!
Taking off my astrologer glasses and just commenting as a viewer, I bet Darby would absolutely LOVE to see me and my partner's charts. I'm a Sun-Moon-Merc-Venus-Chiron-NN in Libra + Aqua Rising (super air dominant). My partner is a Sun-Moon-Rising-Merc-Saturn-NN Capricorn + Taurus Mars (super DUPER earth dominant). We are the exemplar of what she was talking about the Air-Earth, and even people who know NOTHING about astrology have commented on this dynamic that we have, which is apparently extremely palpable and obvious. I seriously can't tell you the number of times I've been identified with Air by complete strangers, exactly like the fire-man and water-woman from her time in Africa that she tells the story of. And he is seriously the most Capricorn human you can imagine. I try not to talk about my own stuff too much, but when you're a really good case study for the elements and modalities (Libra-Capricorn square), it MUST be brought up sometimes haha.
I wonder what Darby's elemental make up might be. If I can say so, she seemed quite mentally scattered at times at a level that was often overwhelming for me to try and stay with her as she tended to ramble and sometimes depart from the topic. Chris had to reign her in and keep her on-topic a lot and it felt like a relief for the focus and stability he brought to the conversation. Maybe a good example of opposite energies needed to balance things.
I had a similar reaction. I am relatively new to in depth studying astrology and Chris and his podcasts have been a joy and a blessing. I was excited to see one on the elements but you described my frustration with it.
Darby was free as a bird... A lovely wise woman... She let Chris be the scholar and that was okay ... she was receptive and fluid and was always on the topic in her own way. Not rigid at all... Wonderful both of them.
I am working my way through these videos as they resonate with me and I am enthralled by each and every one of them. So much amazing discussion and information. I’m spending my summer with you 🙂. This morning I was considering my grand fire and water trines and realizing I needed much more in depth understanding of the elements in general to make sense of those grand trines and then I saw this video. I will go to the aspects video next. I don’t know if you know how important these videos are. I hope you know. 💜✨
"The story of the man who left his wife over the house" is so true of Pisces' behaviour...it reminds of a friend of mine (Pisces) who one day told me " I love you as you are", then never ever heard of her anymore...
Venelina Velitchkova omg, I have been saying this so often!! Why are all the Pisces ppl your chill friend (or lover) one day, then gone the next?! If they’re truly so emotionally deep, why be a flake? I met a Pisces guy on 12/3/2019. Had a great time. Before he left, we agreed that he’d give me a ride down the freeway in an hour. Not far but maybe a 10-15 min drive. Well...he never came back of course. Lost his phone so I asked him what happened on Facebook. He “read” the message and I, with my Scorpio rising self, wrote back, “you’re not gonna answer me??” Lol! He actually borrowed a shirt and still has it! Well we still haven’t met up. I just hate flakes. If you’re not “down”, don’t go “there.” Simple. I often forget that ppl have different rising signs, moon, & other planets. I don’t believe water signs are “so emotional” that they can’t think clearly. Then they should listen to their own inner feelings and NOT say yes to ppl when they want to say NO.
@@erikm8372 honestly.....it sounds like you're not a person I would feel comfortable communicating with. In no way did you express concern and took their choice as a personal attack rather than literally a choice for their own needs. We need freedom to come and go. And it's quite possible we change our minds, not that we are lying. I would recommend trying to come from a place of understanding rather accusation
Great new information and so much wisdom. Thank you so much for this! I love this podcast and will listen to it many times. I have a grand water trine that includes 4th house Cancer moon, 8th house Scorpio Venus/Saturn, and Pisces rising. I try to maintain boundaries but it feel natural to dissolve into the emotions of others and then with Virgo sun in 7th...analysis is another feature. It's no wonder others are ambivalent about me. It's never a complaint...just movements to and away from me that puzzle me.
I am a libra sun, Leo moon, and Scorpio rising. A lot of my chart is fire and air. I notice that I am deeply contemplative, but while I can isolate, I generally get the most done when I am able to express or articulate how I feel so that others can understand. I am also a type of person that likes to get things done, but can become deeply depressed if things don't work out the way I had envisioned them. I work in behavioral health and have a very easy time getting along with many people, and helping many to heal. However, to be just practical and focused seems difficult for me at times since I can't help but see so many possibilities before me with everything. Leo is in my Venus, but my 7th house has Taurus. So I'm still confused on that note, but I notice that I am always seeking someone who grounds me or provides, but I end up being the one grounding the other, aka having the house, and material things, but they generally ground me emotionally. The relationship with myself is so strong, I don't need to be in a relationship to know myself, but I genuinely love being with someone and want to have a life partner, like a best friend and lover in one
Amazing discussion. The scorpio talk is something I can definitely relate to (stellium in scorpio, mars, saturn and pluto all retrograde). Esp in childhood one can have collisions with the core of others, adults too that are too overwhelming to process. Sun and venus taurus - yes the body psyche axis is very active. Almost like a black hole - whatever gets in there gets comepletely transformed and transported - the native (me) included.
Being an air asc, 3 planets (North Node, venus, Mercury) in libra, it's been about ideas, communication and the 'cold' side of things, away from water. Also, I think, it is a lifelong challenge for me to get emotional cues, behavioural cues; and that's why I started studying group dynamics, psychology and the behavioural cues and heuristics at play when people interact. So, yeah, I did try to dance via help of written word done by brilliant minds. Also, I have planets in all 3 of fire signs which makes me have these legendary ideas(it could be a sagg word/legendary, but, i like the fire being legendary and taking one into another realm ; almost like the phoenix burning completing the cycle and returning back to the earth to rise again) about 3rd,7th,11th house.
One of the things that struck me,( the whole libra chart is a joke btw because 1st House has 7th sign and one cannot do mistakes with libra simply), is having saturn in pisces in 6th house, which makes me have no real routine and structure to go on and on day by day, yet I'm stressed by it too much, maybe due to saturn itself. Also, 12th being virgo and sun there, I'm very consistent about losses. I remember my 23-24,12th house profection year. For the first time, I had learnt to lose ego effectively. I made 3 11-day retreats and that changed all the things. I lost my old self. I went in a very virgo+sun places, which had time table schedule for 10-12 hour daily meditation. And, I started studying astrology in the same profection. Sun being the 11th Lord in 12th, I started associating with different groups of people and tried to literally shed all of my previous friends. (well, I didnot do the best I could clearly)
A small elemental example - I have an exact quincuncx between Virgo ASC and ASC ruler Mercury in Aries. There is a constant need to slow down so that I do not make mistakes, which Virgo hates of course. It takes time to be a perfectionist. Virgo Earth has to deal with the mundane reality of sorting out the flash thought. These two signs are in antiscia (equal light) so this helps the elemental difference. Earth can really dampen the fire. With a fire moon and sun as well, I think can get too expressive and hot headed so very much appreciate being around Taurus whom I find to be very calming if not a bit slow - ha! Have always very naturally got along with Air but mostly AQ and Gemini.
Sun, mercury, neptune and uranus in capricorn in the 12th house. Moon conjunct chiron, and mars in virgo in the 8th house. Venus, north node, and pluto in 10th house. Saturn in pisces in 2nd house. I have al my planets in earth or water signs - also al planets are in earth or water houses houses. Excepts for my Aquarius rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in my 11th house. Throughout my live i have felt this very intensely. I feel very deeply but i don't neceseraly expresses it loudly, I do overthink things. I feel that I lack competitiveness, and constantly seek masculine energy to fill that void. I’m lazy in the sense that i enjoy relaxation and enjoy my own company. If i worked too much i feel i deserve to take time off the world. I’m emotional but also believe relationships need more than love. At the same time its very difficult for me to stay in the relationship without passion - but also believe a partner that can take care of me and is dominant in that sense is very important and i will loose attraction if this is not there. Not because of the money, but because of the authority/confidence/stability this type of person portrays and demonstrates which is very attractive. I never get into relationships just to be in them, i can go years without it or rejecting people if i don't feel like its there from the beginning. I would rather be alone that entertain someone i don't see anything with. I don't know what it is in my chart, but i find it hard to disagree with someone, if i said something slightly different i always overthink and beat myself up that i might have hurt them. I have different personalities around different people (unconsciously) - i feel that different people bring out a different side of me but in a very dramatic way. Sometimes i feel like i have imposter syndrome or that i am fake and too faced or some may say ‘diplomatic’ - i may think i am being diplomatic but some people have accused me of not having my own opinion. I disagree with this - in my opinion it is just very easy for me to see the different sides of situations
I've always seen the elements be described on two axes of hot/cold and wet dry, and so Fire is hot/dry, Air is hot/wet, Water is cold/wet, and Earth is cold/dry. This gives more Yang elements of Fire and Air as hot, and the more Yin elements of Earth and Water as cold. The dry Fire and Earth as more individualistic & separate and the wet Air and Water as more bonding & connective. But in this talk at around 44:51, you show Fire as Hot and Air as Cold, and Water as Wet and Earth and Dry. You also cite Valens who contrasts Fire as hot and Air as cold, and later you say that Libra is more cooling for Aries. Can someone provide a bit more context for when the shift to Air being Hot, and the elements being described on two axes of Hot/Cold and Wet/Dry and not just one or the other? Also, Aristotle had Air and Fire rising, which is a metaphor for heat as heat rises, and earth and water settles, which is what colder objects tend to do.
I talk about this on pages 257-260 of my book. I wanted to get into it in this episode, but it would have been too long of a historical digression. Basically, there were two different approaches to assigning the qualities to the elements in antiquity: 1) Aristotle's approach, and 2) the Stoic approach. The short version of it is that Aristotle made air primarily wet and water primarily cold in his main work on the subject, On Generation and Corruption, although in some of his biological works he had a tendency to treat air as cooling. There was an alternative model introduced around the same time that made air primarily cold and water primarily wet, and this approach was taken up by the head of Aristotle's school after he died, Theophrastus, and then later also adopted by the Stoics. Only some of the Hellenistic astrologers assign the elements to the signs of the zodiac, and the ones who do like Valens follow the Stoic approach in treating air as cold and water as wet. This and the fact that those signs are opposing each other in the zodiacal wheel seems to imply to me that whoever came up with the scheme had the Stoic approach to the qualities in mind when they created it. I suspect then that this is the reason why some of the more Aristotelian inclined astrologers like Ptolemy do not follow that scheme in assigning the elements to the signs of the zodiac at all, because they perhaps did not agree with how it implicitly was based on the Stoic qualities. So Ptolemy just doesn't mention it or evidently use it at all, even though he lived in the same city and time period as Valens. What happened is that eventually in the Medieval period around the 9th century the Arabic speaking astrologers inherited an astrological tradition where the elemental assignments to the signs of the zodiac were taken for granted, but then at the same time they also inherited the philosophical tradition where Aristotle was very much in vogue, helped in part by Ptolemy's popularization of the casual/naturalistic model of astrology. So what seems to happen is that they kept using the assignment of the elements to the signs of the zodiac, but then assumed that they should use Aristotle's qualities when talking about the elements. Thus from that point forward the Aristotelian qualities were applied to the signs of the zodiac instead of the Stoic ones. That became the dominant approach for several centuries, but then after the 17th century none of this mattered because Aristotle and temperament theory fell completely out of vogue, and modern astrologers in the 20th century didn't really invoke the qualities, until the tradition revival beginning in the 80s, which went backwards in the tradition and started with Lilly and worked its way to the Medieval authors and then eventually the Hellenistic ones. Most of the people who focus on temperament theory over the past decade or two take the Renaissance and late Medieval approaches for granted, thus also Aristotle's qualities.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast That's really helpful. Thanks for elaborating on that Chris. I'll have to read that section of your book for more information and context on that all. I have a copy of Empedocles: The Extant Fragments by Yale University from 1981, and on pages 26-27, it lists Alcmaeon, Philistion, Diocles, and Aristotle as all making important contributions towards the two axes of hot/cold and wet/dry that started with Alcmaeon's assumption of an indefinite number of opposites, but then Philiston added the four seasons in the Hippocratic Nature of Man, Diocles may have brought in the aspects of temperament, and that "Empedocles therefore probably did not arrive at his theory of four roots by adapting an already recognized tetrad of opposites, although he did contribute to the subsequent formulae of elements based upon the opposites of hot, cold, wet, and dry." So I'll have to dig into your book and associated references. I still haven't read through all of Empedocles' extant fragments, but it sounds like from this version by M.R. Wright that the hot, cold, wet, and dry may be traced back to Empedocles. I've been very interested in the primary sources for the elements as I've been using it quite a bit in my Experiential Design theories. I personally prefer the hot/cold & wet/dry polarities as I think it has some deeper philosophical foundations that helps to draw associative correlations to other systems with two axes of spectrums. You can see in the second part of my talk how I've been applying the elements to Learning Theory, the Quadrivium, Aristotle's Causes, and some contemporary media theory. ruclips.net/video/p8-oWtwcAKI/видео.html Anyway, thanks for the chat and explanation. I still need to dive into this a bit more, and so this conversation was a good catalyst.
The comment about Theophrastus having just switched (and I guess reduced?) attributes of Air to mainly (just?) cold and Water to mainly (just?) wet, made me look up things again, first "Hellenistic Astrology" (p. 259, footnote 125), then James Longrigg "Elementary Physics in the Lyceaum and Stoa", which I both already had. According to Longrigg, it does look like Theophrastus did attribute cold to Air and wet to Water, but also gave Fire a special role altogether, with Earth-Water-Air heavy and going down, Fire light and going up (which is actually in a material/physical view not completely wrong, states of matter solid-fluid-gas and "energy"). I still remain curious how the views on elements changed over time, especially between Aristotle and the early centuries CE*; very interesting (and new to me) was that the astrologers who assigned elements to signs were coming from the (or at least one of the) Stoic views with Fire-hot, Air-cold, Water-wet, Earth-dry, that had definitely escaped me (I guess influenced also in my case by how Albumasar attributed elements to planets using Aristotles dual qualities per element). * In "The Origins of Stoic Cosmology", David E. Hahm argues basically that Aristotle did not yet strive for a unified theory of all, which (according to Hahm) would have been the reason that in works on different subjects the same elements had different attributes - but difficult to prove or disprove that. While the Stoics would have apparently been trying get to a unified theory (again according to Hahm, from memory). And thanks a lot for the replies here, very interesting!
As a Gem Asc, I think she could articulate but I find her expression more Earth-related & grounded (though her Mercury may help boost her point of view as well)
Soon (after I finish reviving my home) I’ll be deep diving into the signs, I listened to this a little to make sure I’m not going to alter views on the elements. 😂 I debated if 3 was better than 4, some argue 5-6. No, 4. Fire and Water, air and earth create a 3+3+3=9. Times 2, 18. 1+8=9. Even 36, 3+6=9. You want that pattern. I’ve already mentioned: exalted sun you get the Brigid archetype, exalted Saturn you get the Morrigan archetype. The missing 2 would be the water mother goddess Dana and the warrior god of earth Dagna. Exaltation of Jupiter, exaltation of mars. This brings up that creation myths can be derived from the thema mundi. I stumbled on this late last night when Aquarius moon come up, I haven’t derived many sign meanings yet. I did a little, but was taken back by how brutal Valens was with Aquarius 😂. Hit me, it has a rulership conjunction with its 12th and 1st so the 12th is strong in the character of the derived sign. Also, pisces 2nd. Aquarius was enslaved to serve water to the gods (especially Zeus). Some myths include the exaltation of Venus. The point, you probably don’t need the myths since you can derive the myths from the zodiac. This may actually help with being objective with meanings of signs. That’s part of why I find the Morrigan myths so fascinating, there’s a warning in her myths by her about what happens to a culture that loses respect for what she symbolizes. When people talk about libra is like a sign that symbolizes a fall, any planet being in its worse position (only challenged by Sagittarius). We don’t live in a culture that respects what the sign symbolizes. One myth she warns of climate change (😆). I’ll give one example utilizing libra tied to what I stated in a comment about using the word Semitic more properly. Astrologers will say they frequently come across a person saying they’re doing the work of the devil and accuse them of satanism and witchcraft; that feeling will explain what it’s like to feel personal anti-Semitism being upset of the accusation. Now, also important, the other side of the coin. There’s a movie called Midsommar where group visits a small village to find they take part in ancient paganism and they’re each (but one) sacrificed for a fertility ritual. The other side, there’s also good reason for people to have a dislike of paganism or pagan practices that is important to retain beyond the free will debate. That movie actually does align with practices related to Brigid and the Morrigan, the movie is actually very “Morrigan” as it is actually an allegory/metaphor about personal sovereignty and autonomy which is a known theme dealing with libra in terms of learning to demonstrate. Yet, it isn’t the same autonomy and sovereignty that’s defined by aries, it’s the contrary. Not a lot said about elements, you can derive and align element meanings by aligning them properly by myth since translators were not astrologers who’d be looking at myths from that point of view. Water seems associated with birthing, giving life, and immortality.
I have strong air, fire and water, almost total lack of earth 😁 Very floaty person, in the air and on clouds, imaginative, creative, no so much organized, like to have several projects active. Expressing myself visually and verbally. I need to slow myself a bit, get myself to the ground 😬
I am CnAsc, Sun Aq, Moon Sag- dominant fire- I have difficulties with water-people & I love them. I have to 'curb my enthusiasm' if I want them not to reject my ideas- although as a rule they do respect my opinion, in crisis in particular - what seems obvious to me and says 'go for it', is far from their minds, LOL.. They are getting on my nerves sometimes, but that's just my 'impatient' fire-sometimes Aq Sun helps, sometimes it doesn't ;)
I’d say Aries is the initial spark of the flame...like when you first light a match, Leo is the steady burning of the flame/heart center and Sagittarius is the flame ablaze, reaching towards the heavens... reaching outwards/towards higher knowledge or that which cannot be touched. There is also this sense of the spirit of the flame reaching towards the great spirit (a certain oneness, similar in a sense to the water signs... all going back to the ocean of oneness).
Another motion to show how a opposing placements are integral to balance & expansion of both forces. The Sun & Venus polarizing the Leo rising allows for a fine tuning of how you express yourself into the world. Help to combat the non-solid lifestyle the Pisces energy finds familiar. A Merc in Aqua should bring fourth a means to connect to a very tech oriented world yet still use the drive of Mars & Leos fire to set out a solid wave from collective oceans
@@venusexpress27 gah i get that~ stupidly self aware and of those around (when were not spacing out lol). i wish others paid attention to my idiosyncrasies/ thoughts/ emotions, etc. the way I naturally do for others. we can "live laugh love" but its kinda sick to have that conscious voice to pull us back out of the "void" or w/e
Scorpio Mars- absolutely brilliant! /I have one- good for psychotherapists /I am one/ but needs to be tamed, its edges brushed - and that came to me later in life
1:36:00 you can't do that, most people are unaware how piscean help them behind the scenes on spiritual realm, they will call you fanatic, wich, crazy, cult-member or so, and spread this conviction to others likeminded. I tried and I was punished for truth. So better to keep quietly follow yor path of joy mixed with sadness. Not taking credit from humans. The universe is circular and good returns of itself, as well as wrongdoing.
The four elements (and I must insist much more) were introduced to Greeks via Iranians. The Zoroastrians already had gods and godesses related to the sacred four elements (i.e. Anahita: godess of water, Ahuramazda: the highest diety associated with fire the most sacred element, etc) Even what later adopted by Nazis as Swaskita was the Iranian "wheel of Mithra" that represeted the four natural elemnts and it has astronomical significance (each wings apear at the begining of each season starting with one element (i.e. spring: fire, summer: water, etc.).....For political reasons (i.e. 700 years of war between the Iranian Empire and Roman empire, and of course before the Romans the wars with the Greeks), and later on the European colonization of Asia and esp the rively of the British with Iranians over India (i.e. before British colonization Indians spoke Persian as their second language), the European texts have continiously tried to eliminate traces of the Iranian civilization contribution (not to mention to contemprary animosity of USA et al.).....Anyway, most things attributed to ancient Greeks or Romans were origibally Iranian or at least inspired by Iranians, begining with the so-called Greek philosophy (Plato traveled to Iran to learn philosohy from the Persian magi)...Greek astrology also comes almost directly from Iran.
Listened to this again, unlike the 12 links, the buddhist explanation of the 4 elements would be something I’d directly import. The astrological 12 houses are fine, there’s just a way the 12 links work that are astrologically interesting. A word many use for water is “cohesive”. With them, the 4 elements are part of life experience you’ll always experience together, but with different ratios where one is more prominent. Earth is the only element that is solid, can be physically touched. Food, it’ll be earth but celery has air and water in it. Eating, the object being chewed (earth), saliva softening the food to swallow (water) to stomach (fire), to digestion to blood stream (water) as the solid (earth) moves through digestion, fire is also the metabolism, blood (water) needs oxygen (air) to sustain. Of course, solid waste and liquid waste with burned nutrients. Aid association with communication, lungs and the air vibration on vocal cords but this also has earth. Modalities, I’m wondering about “rebirth, karma, impermanence” as being somewhat equivalent. But, elements work. Not a replacement, it’s just a thing about “if something is true..” it’ll exist cross culturally. Next, I’m spending more on the “house debate” topic where I do have a feeling quadrants work due to various rulership schemes. Just some “outside of astrology” keywords. Water: clarity, fertility, spontaneity and cohesion, lacking grasp, over emotional. Fire: creative/catalytic spark, sexual union, anger, restlessness, anxiety. Air: change, growth, communication, ventilation, messenger of inner/outer, unstable, restless, dispersion. Earth: stability, nurturing, physical, rooted, too serious, mechanical. Very very similar.
Some timestamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:43 Darby's books
00:03:10 Darby's background
00:14:10 Sources of the elements
00:20:49 Plato, elements, triplicities
00:30:50 Aristotle and natural place
00:34:56 Archetypal qualities
00:43:40 Hot, cold, wet, dry qualities
00:54:29 Water signs
01:02:17 Air and fire signs
01:18:15 Element imbalances
01:24:15 Cancer Capricorn
01:30:35 Virgo Pisces
01:39:30 Taurus Scorpio
01:57:26 Aries Libra
02:07:30 Closing remarks
📚 Books mentioned, and more.
4:22 Dane Rudhyar - Speed of Life
Authors Sun, Moon & Rising Signs:
♈️ in 4th , ♒️ in 3rd & ♐️ is in 1st.
4:43 Isabel M Hickey
Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs :
♌️9th , ♋️8th & ♏️ in 1st.
4:46 Frances Sakoian
Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs :
♎️1st , ♍️12th& ♎️ is in 1st.
4:45 Louis Acker
Authors Sun, Moon & Rising signs :
( Birth chart unfound )
He is alive today about to experience his 3rd Saturn return and currently in his 11th house prefection year.
The speakers :
Darby Costello has published 5 books.
( chart not found )
Chris Brennan has published a book on Hellenistic Astrology.
Sun, Moon & Rising Signs:
♏️9th, Moon& Rising Conjunct ♒️ in1st
38: 38:50
One of the best podcasts I have ever heard on the elements and astrology!
Agree!
Wonderful learning 🙏
Brilliant conversation. So enjoyable. Thanks again for all the work you do. I have Sun in Cancer and 10th H. Pisces. I worked as spiritual care chaplain in long term care . Management was always after my supervisor as to "what is it she does?" Because the 'work' I did didn't fit into their time and program management paperwork. When I was about to retire, my supervisor told them: When she leaves, you'll understand what she did. And that was true. After I had been gone for over a year some management people were still trying to get me to go back. I had a resident once wave me over to where she was sitting. She motioned me down so she could speak more closely. She said, "I see what you do ?" Slightly alarmed, I said, "What do you see?" And she said, "You fill in the gaps."
I'm also from Boston and started learning astrology then also. Studied Rudhyar, Isabelle and Jung. I'm 77 and still the only astrology books I saved to keep on my boat are those three. I didn't become an astrologer but do follow my transits. I enjoyed this so much simply because so little is written on the elements. So a lot of clarity. Thank you so much for this Chris and Darby.
I paused at 1:33:32, where you are speaking of Virgo as the practical earth sign. I completely agree! I am a VIRGO SUN/VIRGO MERCURY in the 7th whole sign house, with MARS CAPRICORN/MOON CAPRICORN in the 11th whole sign house. Practicality, details, timing, planning, and how that plays into relationships with others is a big part of my life. Whenever my friends speak to me about their difficulties, it is very difficult for me to HOLD BACK from offering practical information or tips to assist them! Luckily I have Pisces rising conjunct Jupiter so I can feel and listen to the "wordless", poetic, and ethereal resonances!
What a truly inspirational woman. I’m only 25 minutes in and I’m absolutely blown away by the theories and ideas thrown about. Thank you, Chris, and everyone else working on this podcast in helping guide me in my studies.
Fabulous episode. Darby has such a gracious attitude articulating carefully her ideas to be as close as possible to her vision of the elements 💜
Thank you Chris for gifting us with the most brilliant teachers 🙏
Chris you bring out the best of everyone you interview. You are so gifted and a gift to all your viewers. Thank you. This (and so many others) was informative and fun. 👏🙏🏼
I don't know if it is about times or culture or just her individual case, but she has clear examples and acquaintances for everything she says and that feels so humane; the sort of humane which is not present now a days despite of more and more people on earth.
The story of drawing up a chart in 9hrs was hella cool. Must’ve felt exhilarating to figure that out with someone else
One of my favourite podcast episodes! I love all the episodes that Chris has been making, but this one brought just so much joy and insight, I can not express my gratitude enough to both Chris and Darby 🌻🌻🌻
low key a great episode. i always appreciate going back to basics and cementing the basics into your foundation. makes interpretation come more naturally.
I like how Darby personified the Elements through people she knows. I'm an Air sun sign with lots of Earth planets in my chart and I feel more grounded than airy.
Really insightful! I hope Darby Costello can come on the podcast more times. I like how she explains things in a completely different way than others I have heard on the podcast and it gives me new insights to hear her explain things in ways that are new to me.
This is truly a splendid conversation! Absolutely loved it, so spontaneous! Thank you so much 💕❤️🙏🏼✨
Listened to this on the Patreon side and it was an awesome podcast. Thanks for having Darby on. This topic really helps to further expand understanding and comprehension of the signs, planets, and houses. Great stuff.
Glad to hear that you enjoyed it! Thanks for supporting the show through our page on Patreon!
31:48 🔥
Yes. This answers you firey question about how to bring fire "down". Fire needs fuel, such as your attention. It holds our attention and burns it up. But we need to turn the attention inward/downward in order to bring fire to a useful purpose. So, it must be "articulated". 🌬️
Fire will calm down and give its own attention if it senses that you're going to provide it with something else to burn. A new direction to run.
Wonderful...
35:47
Yes. Fire and Water need to be _Interpreted._
I'm giving alot of my Airey attention right now to the "Sense-Making" movement. It interprets both external events which are constantly competing for (sucking up) our Attention as well as interior processes which tend to hide (sink away) from our Attention. But most importantly, it is being reflected back at itself so as to refine its own processes and become less easy to manipulate.
1:33:10
omg... this section explains my Jupiter so much...
😢 He is so frustrated and unhappy...
1:21:00 I have 5 planets in Libra in the 5th house. I can relate to the comment of people with planets in their 7th and being alone. I spent almost half my life giving to others, I'm now at the point where I want to learn more about myself, and need to be away from others to do so. I'm married but need a certain amount of time to myself or I become agitated.
Never thought about this way, love and strife together, which then stabilizes elements, this is great thinking!!! Awesome conversation!!! Instigating and full of new information i've never heard of before. great!
I love the fact that these two scholars are so knowledgable in the Classics.
I bought the books when they came out. Hardbound astrology books were not common. This is making me feel old. The material is timeless. Thank you for having this podcast.
This is the most impressive podcast, for me- I fell in love with Darby's thoughts and communication- I got hooked when DC hesitated to accept that water is 'adjustable' shaped by 'the container...its craving for Union can make us see that as obvious, but it's much more than that- when water adjust /to fulfil its need/ but is not 'comfortable' it can become resentful & passive aggressive...AND yes, every strong water person touches you on some deeper, pre-verbal as DC said, level. Thank you to both of you~
In a time of speed, catchy soundbites and little commitment, it is a true delight to come across this format. A joy to listen to, and so valuable in terms of reflection, learning and understanding. Thank you for the gift of wisdom built on true research and experience, this is so so valuable!
Thank you for all of your podcasts. So much information and connect-ability brought to mind ...part of the air sign 'speaking' is inherently using air.
how lucky we are to listen this conversation! thanks!
Thanks to this podcast I’ve found answers to questions I never realized I had. Thank you!!
Dang I wish I had as many friends as this lady!!! 😂❤️ one of my favourite podcasts!! Such simple, fascinating ideas! Thank you 🙏🏼
I’m water sun & moon with fire rising! I feel like I am steam, wet heat, more water than heat, humid, cleansing, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes drowning or heavy with certain moods, hard to grasp or contain. my 8th house Pisces stellium is expansive & deep. My fire helps motivate me to rise again after exploring the emotional watery depths. I agree that the fire & water both speak languages that are not intelligible in this realm, just as you both spoke about. I am learning to translate :)
To add about Taurus & Scorpio receiving gifts, I think Scorpio receives their gifts through intimate emotional exchange- that is our currency (I’m a Scorpio moon), while Taurus is satisfied to receive tangible gifts that cost physical money or time or effort.
This was so enjoyable to listen to. I really appreciated how topics were broken down so easily and the stories that tied into them.
Excellent episode. I could listen to you two talk elements all day. Thank you for this information.
This totally makes sense. Having fairly even elements, from my experience, I find I think creatively, process emotionally, discuss selectively and implement practically. Sometimes this helps, at times, chronically stuck. The chronically stuck is very much the emotional quality of water element.
Let me know in the comments below how the elements manifest in your chart and life!
I have 5 planets in fire which make up a natal grand fire trine... I do start things strong and the burn out...this grand trine is from the 10th(aries moon) 6th (sagittarius mercury mars and neptune) and jupiter in leo in the 2nd. It's a lot of creative and sexual energy that sometimes I cant use in a practical way.
Prometheus Unbound that’s kinda interesting. I have Leo moon in the 10th, (empty) Aries 6th house, and Sagittarius 2nd with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. I have a million ideas (Neptune), but give up too easily (Uranus randomly getting bored), Saturn in 2nd helps me to still set high standards (plus Aries in 6th). I kick myself if I fail (Leo moon in 10th).
I’m noticing lately how my Saturn/Uranus in the 2nd house are opposed my Chiron in the 8th. Could explain a lot regarding money, work and healing negative karma.
I loved this so much! The talk about water in particular (I'm a Scorpio sun&rising) really helped me to see myself and my role in relationships differently/more fully.
43:45 senses & elements
30:40 water and fire is a steam engine. Nothing is more practical. That’s the paradox. Often the progressed element is the complimentary element for achieving balance and managing momentum.
This entire discussion was so fascinating and helpful! I really understand the elements on a whole new level now!
I loved when she talked about her interest in earth & fire people as I have moon & mercury in aries, jupiter in leo, sun in taurus, virgo ascendent & uranus/neptune/NN conjunction in capricorn. All creating tight trines!
Her words really resonated as I am a visual artist who uses every kind of earth material in my art!!! I am also a chef! (Earth + fire!)
Thank God for my venus, mars & pluto water placements to cool me down 😅
Appreciate your consistent creation of quality educational content!
Chris and Darby thank you. What an interesting conversation! Elements and triplicities, the whole lot. I loved it. The best astrological explanation I have ever heard of the relationship with sign opposites. Darby, I loved your experiential tid-bits of the lived experiences of your friends that gave so much meaning to the conversation. Chris, I love the way you share astrology in all its unusual, historical and groundbreaking ways that bring meaning, groundedness in simple articulation that all can digest and understand. More of it please. Chris, please bring back Darby on similar conversation, it was wonderful, as it made my chart and all my relating with others make so much sense, even where I need to do more in close relationship being a Virgo sun, Cap moon with Pisces rising. thank you! Great stuff.
I am mostly mud here. lol. Water and earth. Libra in Venus is the only air and the only fire is Aries in Saturn. However I am a double Scorpio (watery martian mars) with Pisces Moon and Warrior Mars in Capricorn. I love my routines at home. My Pisces Moon is in the 4th house and Mars likes to get the work done. The Sun is in the 12th. I could isolate myself all day at home and be happy about it while still getting my work done. After my work, I love to do the things I enjoy. Saturn in the 5th house there is no joy until the work is done. It is hard for me not to be responsible. I have a stellium in Virgo as well.
"You can hear the element talking." Oh, I love that! "The spoken word is much more pure." (Something Austin Coppock had said in a previous video.) ♥
Thank you both so much. Wonderful episode, very enlightening.
I'm a venus pisces and around 1hr 35 spot on with the giving of self going unnoticed and then I drop the whole relationship over years of resentment! Thank you for shining light on that shadow for me xx
Water and air, the middle-elements, are both penetrative in nature. Air pollinates while water fertilizes.
Thank you both! So interesting to hear of her journey. I was born in 68, with my moon between Pluto and Uranus. I’ve been interested in astrology since I as 17. That time was definitely a resurgence of interest in astrology ☀️🌙
This is a great talk on the elements, so many really unique perspectives on them. It made a lot of sense, very useful.
The majority of my chart is fire, mostly Aries, and a bit of earth. What she says about fire seeing things and then needs to ground them in this dimension completely resonates. Creative ideas and visions flow through me near constantly and it’s difficult to keep up, or to focus on existing projects as new ideas are also blooming. My latest venture has been into the world of stained glass and it feels like I’ve found the perfect medium. I am immersing myself in learning as many skills as I can to be able to bring these visions to life. Feels like I’m finally getting the knack for how to work with this energy in a productive and satisfying way. 💛
Aries is the coursgeous starter. Maybe you're meant to sparkle your ideas around
I thoroughly enjoyed this topic and the flow of information between you both- thank you!
This was great! Totally got the image of Cancer as the cave inside the Capricorn mountain! Love ❤️
This was a WONDERFUL conversation with such a sweet woman!! The breakdown of the elements was truly insightful. Thank you both ❤
Stellium in mutable fire makes hard to focus on one thing for a longer time including developing daily routine healthy habits like exercising. On a positive side it means adaptability in the crisis situations when things change, non-attachment to system or relationships other people get used to. But eqally important element in me is water - moon in pisces first house that makes trine with jupiter in scorpio. Inside I am fire but other people don't know it because outside I am water. This inner fire and outer calmness is especially amplified by exalted mars in twelfth house. 12th house is a carcer (prison) that doesn't let anger (mars) to go out. So i never explode on other people however bad they are.
Such an insightful conversation, thank you both for sharing! 🙏🏼❤
I have a Cancer Ascendant, the Sun, Mars and Pluto in Scorpio in the 4th house and the Moon in Pisces in the 8th house. 🌊
My poor Mercury in Sagittarius suffers sometimes, but I have found expressing myself through creativity, Martial Arts and meditation very helpful. ☺️
This was so incredibly enjoyable!! Thank you both so much ❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥✨️✨️✨️
Wonderful!!Thank u for this beautiful show!It is such a joy for me to listen and learn from ur podcast,and this show particularly is supberb!She is one I resonate with in her amazing feelings she express's while describing how she came to write about the beautiful Elements.Thank u again.
This was very helpful to understanding why others are the way they are. As and Aries I often get frustrated with water types - with the unknowing that Darby described of why they do what they do and feel what they feel so not conscious and coming from this feeling level that they cannot articulate. I was married to a Cancer Sun Aries Moon man for 26 years, but then, I have Venus is Taurus - Ha - very loyal and dependable - and he was a fabulous cook!
A truly lovely conversation. Thank you so much
Taking off my astrologer glasses and just commenting as a viewer, I bet Darby would absolutely LOVE to see me and my partner's charts. I'm a Sun-Moon-Merc-Venus-Chiron-NN in Libra + Aqua Rising (super air dominant). My partner is a Sun-Moon-Rising-Merc-Saturn-NN Capricorn + Taurus Mars (super DUPER earth dominant). We are the exemplar of what she was talking about the Air-Earth, and even people who know NOTHING about astrology have commented on this dynamic that we have, which is apparently extremely palpable and obvious. I seriously can't tell you the number of times I've been identified with Air by complete strangers, exactly like the fire-man and water-woman from her time in Africa that she tells the story of. And he is seriously the most Capricorn human you can imagine. I try not to talk about my own stuff too much, but when you're a really good case study for the elements and modalities (Libra-Capricorn square), it MUST be brought up sometimes haha.
I wonder what Darby's elemental make up might be. If I can say so, she seemed quite mentally scattered at times at a level that was often overwhelming for me to try and stay with her as she tended to ramble and sometimes depart from the topic. Chris had to reign her in and keep her on-topic a lot and it felt like a relief for the focus and stability he brought to the conversation. Maybe a good example of opposite energies needed to balance things.
I had a similar reaction. I am relatively new to in depth studying astrology and Chris and his podcasts have been a joy and a blessing. I was excited to see one on the elements but you described my frustration with it.
LMAOO never in other podcasts would you analyse the speakers characteristics
Darby was free as a bird... A lovely wise woman... She let Chris be the scholar and that was okay ... she was receptive and fluid and was always on the topic in her own way. Not rigid at all... Wonderful both of them.
@@imperialtower 😂😂😂😂 bro gave the whole scouting report
I am working my way through these videos as they resonate with me and I am enthralled by each and every one of them. So much amazing discussion and information. I’m spending my summer with you 🙂.
This morning I was considering my grand fire and water trines and realizing I needed much more in depth understanding of the elements in general to make sense of those grand trines and then I saw this video. I will go to the aspects video next.
I don’t know if you know how important these videos are. I hope you know. 💜✨
This was such a rich and enlightening conversation. Thank you so much 🙏
Omg Darby !!!!! My fav astrology teacher!
Great guest, so engaging, please have her back!☺
Thank you so much for these informative pod cast they’re so awesome with gratitude Theresa
"The story of the man who left his wife over the house" is so true of Pisces' behaviour...it reminds of a friend of mine (Pisces) who one day told me " I love you as you are", then never ever heard of her anymore...
Venelina Velitchkova omg, I have been saying this so often!! Why are all the Pisces ppl your chill friend (or lover) one day, then gone the next?! If they’re truly so emotionally deep, why be a flake? I met a Pisces guy on 12/3/2019. Had a great time. Before he left, we agreed that he’d give me a ride down the freeway in an hour. Not far but maybe a 10-15 min drive. Well...he never came back of course. Lost his phone so I asked him what happened on Facebook. He “read” the message and I, with my Scorpio rising self, wrote back, “you’re not gonna answer me??” Lol! He actually borrowed a shirt and still has it! Well we still haven’t met up. I just hate flakes. If you’re not “down”, don’t go “there.” Simple.
I often forget that ppl have different rising signs, moon, & other planets. I don’t believe water signs are “so emotional” that they can’t think clearly. Then they should listen to their own inner feelings and NOT say yes to ppl when they want to say NO.
@@erikm8372 honestly.....it sounds like you're not a person I would feel comfortable communicating with. In no way did you express concern and took their choice as a personal attack rather than literally a choice for their own needs. We need freedom to come and go. And it's quite possible we change our minds, not that we are lying. I would recommend trying to come from a place of understanding rather accusation
Great new information and so much wisdom. Thank you so much for this! I love this podcast and will listen to it many times. I have a grand water trine that includes 4th house Cancer moon, 8th house Scorpio Venus/Saturn, and Pisces rising. I try to maintain boundaries but it feel natural to dissolve into the emotions of others and then with Virgo sun in 7th...analysis is another feature. It's no wonder others are ambivalent about me. It's never a complaint...just movements to and away from me that puzzle me.
Thank you! I missed this episode some how.
I am a libra sun, Leo moon, and Scorpio rising. A lot of my chart is fire and air. I notice that I am deeply contemplative, but while I can isolate, I generally get the most done when I am able to express or articulate how I feel so that others can understand. I am also a type of person that likes to get things done, but can become deeply depressed if things don't work out the way I had envisioned them. I work in behavioral health and have a very easy time getting along with many people, and helping many to heal. However, to be just practical and focused seems difficult for me at times since I can't help but see so many possibilities before me with everything. Leo is in my Venus, but my 7th house has Taurus. So I'm still confused on that note, but I notice that I am always seeking someone who grounds me or provides, but I end up being the one grounding the other, aka having the house, and material things, but they generally ground me emotionally. The relationship with myself is so strong, I don't need to be in a relationship to know myself, but I genuinely love being with someone and want to have a life partner, like a best friend and lover in one
Wonderfull💜 always waiting for your smile 🦁🦁🦁
Amazing discussion. The scorpio talk is something I can definitely relate to (stellium in scorpio, mars, saturn and pluto all retrograde). Esp in childhood one can have collisions with the core of others, adults too that are too overwhelming to process.
Sun and venus taurus - yes the body psyche axis is very active. Almost like a black hole - whatever gets in there gets comepletely transformed and transported - the native (me) included.
So interesting, thank you!
This was fantastic! Loved it! Thank you!!
Fire: spiritual vision (ideal form), Air : intellectualisation of form, Water: sum of definite visions, Earth: sum of definite forms
This talk was brilliant! Loved it.
Being an air asc, 3 planets (North Node, venus, Mercury) in libra, it's been about ideas, communication and the 'cold' side of things, away from water. Also, I think, it is a lifelong challenge for me to get emotional cues, behavioural cues; and that's why I started studying group dynamics, psychology and the behavioural cues and heuristics at play when people interact. So, yeah, I did try to dance via help of written word done by brilliant minds.
Also, I have planets in all 3 of fire signs which makes me have these legendary ideas(it could be a sagg word/legendary, but, i like the fire being legendary and taking one into another realm ; almost like the phoenix burning completing the cycle and returning back to the earth to rise again) about 3rd,7th,11th house.
One of the things that struck me,( the whole libra chart is a joke btw because 1st House has 7th sign and one cannot do mistakes with libra simply), is having saturn in pisces in 6th house, which makes me have no real routine and structure to go on and on day by day, yet I'm stressed by it too much, maybe due to saturn itself.
Also, 12th being virgo and sun there, I'm very consistent about losses. I remember my 23-24,12th house profection year. For the first time, I had learnt to lose ego effectively. I made 3 11-day retreats and that changed all the things. I lost my old self. I went in a very virgo+sun places, which had time table schedule for 10-12 hour daily meditation.
And, I started studying astrology in the same profection. Sun being the 11th Lord in 12th, I started associating with different groups of people and tried to literally shed all of my previous friends. (well, I didnot do the best I could clearly)
Great both ! Thank you 👍 your guest so intelligent !
I think elements havé much to do with tempérament / hormones .
Nice épisode !
A small elemental example - I have an exact quincuncx between Virgo ASC and ASC ruler Mercury in Aries. There is a constant need to slow down so that I do not make mistakes, which Virgo hates of course. It takes time to be a perfectionist. Virgo Earth has to deal with the mundane reality of sorting out the flash thought. These two signs are in antiscia (equal light) so this helps the elemental difference. Earth can really dampen the fire. With a fire moon and sun as well, I think can get too expressive and hot headed so very much appreciate being around Taurus whom I find to be very calming if not a bit slow - ha! Have always very naturally got along with Air but mostly AQ and Gemini.
Sun, mercury, neptune and uranus in capricorn in the 12th house. Moon conjunct chiron, and mars in virgo in the 8th house. Venus, north node, and pluto in 10th house. Saturn in pisces in 2nd house. I have al my planets in earth or water signs - also al planets are in earth or water houses houses. Excepts for my Aquarius rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in my 11th house.
Throughout my live i have felt this very intensely. I feel very deeply but i don't neceseraly expresses it loudly, I do overthink things. I feel that I lack competitiveness, and constantly seek masculine energy to fill that void. I’m lazy in the sense that i enjoy relaxation and enjoy my own company. If i worked too much i feel i deserve to take time off the world. I’m emotional but also believe relationships need more than love. At the same time its very difficult for me to stay in the relationship without passion - but also believe a partner that can take care of me and is dominant in that sense is very important and i will loose attraction if this is not there. Not because of the money, but because of the authority/confidence/stability this type of person portrays and demonstrates which is very attractive. I never get into relationships just to be in them, i can go years without it or rejecting people if i don't feel like its there from the beginning. I would rather be alone that entertain someone i don't see anything with. I don't know what it is in my chart, but i find it hard to disagree with someone, if i said something slightly different i always overthink and beat myself up that i might have hurt them. I have different personalities around different people (unconsciously) - i feel that different people bring out a different side of me but in a very dramatic way. Sometimes i feel like i have imposter syndrome or that i am fake and too faced or some may say ‘diplomatic’ - i may think i am being diplomatic but some people have accused me of not having my own opinion. I disagree with this - in my opinion it is just very easy for me to see the different sides of situations
Great discussion, thank you!:)
Love this topic! I'm mostly Water and Earth and i have difficulty in starting... anything.
I've always seen the elements be described on two axes of hot/cold and wet dry, and so Fire is hot/dry, Air is hot/wet, Water is cold/wet, and Earth is cold/dry. This gives more Yang elements of Fire and Air as hot, and the more Yin elements of Earth and Water as cold. The dry Fire and Earth as more individualistic & separate and the wet Air and Water as more bonding & connective.
But in this talk at around 44:51, you show Fire as Hot and Air as Cold, and Water as Wet and Earth and Dry. You also cite Valens who contrasts Fire as hot and Air as cold, and later you say that Libra is more cooling for Aries.
Can someone provide a bit more context for when the shift to Air being Hot, and the elements being described on two axes of Hot/Cold and Wet/Dry and not just one or the other?
Also, Aristotle had Air and Fire rising, which is a metaphor for heat as heat rises, and earth and water settles, which is what colder objects tend to do.
I talk about this on pages 257-260 of my book. I wanted to get into it in this episode, but it would have been too long of a historical digression. Basically, there were two different approaches to assigning the qualities to the elements in antiquity: 1) Aristotle's approach, and 2) the Stoic approach. The short version of it is that Aristotle made air primarily wet and water primarily cold in his main work on the subject, On Generation and Corruption, although in some of his biological works he had a tendency to treat air as cooling. There was an alternative model introduced around the same time that made air primarily cold and water primarily wet, and this approach was taken up by the head of Aristotle's school after he died, Theophrastus, and then later also adopted by the Stoics.
Only some of the Hellenistic astrologers assign the elements to the signs of the zodiac, and the ones who do like Valens follow the Stoic approach in treating air as cold and water as wet. This and the fact that those signs are opposing each other in the zodiacal wheel seems to imply to me that whoever came up with the scheme had the Stoic approach to the qualities in mind when they created it. I suspect then that this is the reason why some of the more Aristotelian inclined astrologers like Ptolemy do not follow that scheme in assigning the elements to the signs of the zodiac at all, because they perhaps did not agree with how it implicitly was based on the Stoic qualities. So Ptolemy just doesn't mention it or evidently use it at all, even though he lived in the same city and time period as Valens.
What happened is that eventually in the Medieval period around the 9th century the Arabic speaking astrologers inherited an astrological tradition where the elemental assignments to the signs of the zodiac were taken for granted, but then at the same time they also inherited the philosophical tradition where Aristotle was very much in vogue, helped in part by Ptolemy's popularization of the casual/naturalistic model of astrology. So what seems to happen is that they kept using the assignment of the elements to the signs of the zodiac, but then assumed that they should use Aristotle's qualities when talking about the elements. Thus from that point forward the Aristotelian qualities were applied to the signs of the zodiac instead of the Stoic ones.
That became the dominant approach for several centuries, but then after the 17th century none of this mattered because Aristotle and temperament theory fell completely out of vogue, and modern astrologers in the 20th century didn't really invoke the qualities, until the tradition revival beginning in the 80s, which went backwards in the tradition and started with Lilly and worked its way to the Medieval authors and then eventually the Hellenistic ones. Most of the people who focus on temperament theory over the past decade or two take the Renaissance and late Medieval approaches for granted, thus also Aristotle's qualities.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast That's really helpful. Thanks for elaborating on that Chris. I'll have to read that section of your book for more information and context on that all.
I have a copy of Empedocles: The Extant Fragments by Yale University from 1981, and on pages 26-27, it lists Alcmaeon, Philistion, Diocles, and Aristotle as all making important contributions towards the two axes of hot/cold and wet/dry that started with Alcmaeon's assumption of an indefinite number of opposites, but then Philiston added the four seasons in the Hippocratic Nature of Man, Diocles may have brought in the aspects of temperament, and that "Empedocles therefore probably did not arrive at his theory of four roots by adapting an already recognized tetrad of opposites, although he did contribute to the subsequent formulae of elements based upon the opposites of hot, cold, wet, and dry."
So I'll have to dig into your book and associated references. I still haven't read through all of Empedocles' extant fragments, but it sounds like from this version by M.R. Wright that the hot, cold, wet, and dry may be traced back to Empedocles.
I've been very interested in the primary sources for the elements as I've been using it quite a bit in my Experiential Design theories. I personally prefer the hot/cold & wet/dry polarities as I think it has some deeper philosophical foundations that helps to draw associative correlations to other systems with two axes of spectrums. You can see in the second part of my talk how I've been applying the elements to Learning Theory, the Quadrivium, Aristotle's Causes, and some contemporary media theory.
ruclips.net/video/p8-oWtwcAKI/видео.html
Anyway, thanks for the chat and explanation. I still need to dive into this a bit more, and so this conversation was a good catalyst.
The comment about Theophrastus having just switched (and I guess reduced?) attributes of Air to mainly (just?) cold and Water to mainly (just?) wet, made me look up things again, first "Hellenistic Astrology" (p. 259, footnote 125), then James Longrigg "Elementary Physics in the Lyceaum and Stoa", which I both already had.
According to Longrigg, it does look like Theophrastus did attribute cold to Air and wet to Water, but also gave Fire a special role altogether, with Earth-Water-Air heavy and going down, Fire light and going up (which is actually in a material/physical view not completely wrong, states of matter solid-fluid-gas and "energy").
I still remain curious how the views on elements changed over time, especially between Aristotle and the early centuries CE*; very interesting (and new to me) was that the astrologers who assigned elements to signs were coming from the (or at least one of the) Stoic views with Fire-hot, Air-cold, Water-wet, Earth-dry, that had definitely escaped me (I guess influenced also in my case by how Albumasar attributed elements to planets using Aristotles dual qualities per element).
* In "The Origins of Stoic Cosmology", David E. Hahm argues basically that Aristotle did not yet strive for a unified theory of all, which (according to Hahm) would have been the reason that in works on different subjects the same elements had different attributes - but difficult to prove or disprove that. While the Stoics would have apparently been trying get to a unified theory (again according to Hahm, from memory).
And thanks a lot for the replies here, very interesting!
DARBY is marvelous So totally unique and endearing 🧚🏻♀️🪸
Lynn
Dec 25th 2022
What are Darby sun moon ascendant ..
So many books behind her..Gemini some place
I bet Gemini acsendent.
As a Gem Asc, I think she could articulate but I find her expression more Earth-related & grounded (though her Mercury may help boost her point of view as well)
Soon (after I finish reviving my home) I’ll be deep diving into the signs, I listened to this a little to make sure I’m not going to alter views on the elements. 😂 I debated if 3 was better than 4, some argue 5-6. No, 4. Fire and Water, air and earth create a 3+3+3=9. Times 2, 18. 1+8=9. Even 36, 3+6=9. You want that pattern.
I’ve already mentioned: exalted sun you get the Brigid archetype, exalted Saturn you get the Morrigan archetype. The missing 2 would be the water mother goddess Dana and the warrior god of earth Dagna. Exaltation of Jupiter, exaltation of mars. This brings up that creation myths can be derived from the thema mundi. I stumbled on this late last night when Aquarius moon come up, I haven’t derived many sign meanings yet. I did a little, but was taken back by how brutal Valens was with Aquarius 😂. Hit me, it has a rulership conjunction with its 12th and 1st so the 12th is strong in the character of the derived sign. Also, pisces 2nd. Aquarius was enslaved to serve water to the gods (especially Zeus). Some myths include the exaltation of Venus. The point, you probably don’t need the myths since you can derive the myths from the zodiac.
This may actually help with being objective with meanings of signs. That’s part of why I find the Morrigan myths so fascinating, there’s a warning in her myths by her about what happens to a culture that loses respect for what she symbolizes. When people talk about libra is like a sign that symbolizes a fall, any planet being in its worse position (only challenged by Sagittarius). We don’t live in a culture that respects what the sign symbolizes. One myth she warns of climate change (😆).
I’ll give one example utilizing libra tied to what I stated in a comment about using the word Semitic more properly. Astrologers will say they frequently come across a person saying they’re doing the work of the devil and accuse them of satanism and witchcraft; that feeling will explain what it’s like to feel personal anti-Semitism being upset of the accusation. Now, also important, the other side of the coin. There’s a movie called Midsommar where group visits a small village to find they take part in ancient paganism and they’re each (but one) sacrificed for a fertility ritual. The other side, there’s also good reason for people to have a dislike of paganism or pagan practices that is important to retain beyond the free will debate.
That movie actually does align with practices related to Brigid and the Morrigan, the movie is actually very “Morrigan” as it is actually an allegory/metaphor about personal sovereignty and autonomy which is a known theme dealing with libra in terms of learning to demonstrate. Yet, it isn’t the same autonomy and sovereignty that’s defined by aries, it’s the contrary.
Not a lot said about elements, you can derive and align element meanings by aligning them properly by myth since translators were not astrologers who’d be looking at myths from that point of view. Water seems associated with birthing, giving life, and immortality.
Just beautiful ❤
This was great 👍🏻❤
Love your show!
At what minute do they talk about the earth element in this video? The time stamp are unclear about the earth element
This was very helpful...loved the dilineations... please consider doing elements in detail with Kelly and Austin
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I have strong air, fire and water, almost total lack of earth 😁
Very floaty person, in the air and on clouds, imaginative, creative, no so much organized, like to have several projects active. Expressing myself visually and verbally. I need to slow myself a bit, get myself to the ground 😬
When you say “Pisces people” or any other sign, do you mean Pisces Sun or just people with planets in Pisces? Thank you!
Feels like there was a bias towards water and maybe fire. Would have liked to hear more about earth and air.
I am CnAsc, Sun Aq, Moon Sag- dominant fire- I have difficulties with water-people & I love them. I have to 'curb my enthusiasm' if I want them not to reject my ideas- although as a rule they do respect my opinion, in crisis in particular - what seems obvious to me and says 'go for it', is far from their minds, LOL.. They are getting on my nerves sometimes, but that's just my 'impatient' fire-sometimes Aq Sun helps, sometimes it doesn't ;)
Chris, do you have Darby's chart?
I’d say Aries is the initial spark of the flame...like when you first light a match, Leo is the steady burning of the flame/heart center and Sagittarius is the flame ablaze, reaching towards the heavens... reaching outwards/towards higher knowledge or that which cannot be touched. There is also this sense of the spirit of the flame reaching towards the great spirit (a certain oneness, similar in a sense to the water signs... all going back to the ocean of oneness).
Chris reaction when it was time for Scorpio to be discussed, 😅
Totally fascinating thank you!
Sun and Venus in Pisces (8th house)
Moon in Virgo (2nd house)
Leo Rising
Mercury in Aquarius (7th house)
Mars in Aries (9th house)
Another motion to show how a opposing placements are integral to balance & expansion of both forces. The Sun & Venus polarizing the Leo rising allows for a fine tuning of how you express yourself into the world. Help to combat the non-solid lifestyle the Pisces energy finds familiar. A Merc in Aqua should bring fourth a means to connect to a very tech oriented world yet still use the drive of Mars & Leos fire to set out a solid wave from collective oceans
@@EricTecce Thanks for the interpretation :)
We have such similar charts! I really love being a pisces and lunar virgo-- balance is key! whats your interpretation of it?
@@melorgomolox6828 lots of headaches haha, my pisces side wants to live laugh love while my virgo moon is too aware all the time
@@venusexpress27 gah i get that~ stupidly self aware and of those around (when were not spacing out lol). i wish others paid attention to my idiosyncrasies/ thoughts/ emotions, etc. the way I naturally do for others.
we can "live laugh love" but its kinda sick to have that conscious voice to pull us back out of the "void" or w/e
Scorpio Mars- absolutely brilliant! /I have one- good for psychotherapists /I am one/ but needs to be tamed, its edges brushed - and that came to me later in life
Very good!
1:36:00 you can't do that, most people are unaware how piscean help them behind the scenes on spiritual realm, they will call you fanatic, wich, crazy, cult-member or so, and spread this conviction to others likeminded. I tried and I was punished for truth. So better to keep quietly follow yor path of joy mixed with sadness. Not taking credit from humans. The universe is circular and good returns of itself, as well as wrongdoing.
The four elements (and I must insist much more) were introduced to Greeks via Iranians. The Zoroastrians already had gods and godesses related to the sacred four elements (i.e. Anahita: godess of water, Ahuramazda: the highest diety associated with fire the most sacred element, etc) Even what later adopted by Nazis as Swaskita was the Iranian "wheel of Mithra" that represeted the four natural elemnts and it has astronomical significance (each wings apear at the begining of each season starting with one element (i.e. spring: fire, summer: water, etc.).....For political reasons (i.e. 700 years of war between the Iranian Empire and Roman empire, and of course before the Romans the wars with the Greeks), and later on the European colonization of Asia and esp the rively of the British with Iranians over India (i.e. before British colonization Indians spoke Persian as their second language), the European texts have continiously tried to eliminate traces of the Iranian civilization contribution (not to mention to contemprary animosity of USA et al.).....Anyway, most things attributed to ancient Greeks or Romans were origibally Iranian or at least inspired by Iranians, begining with the so-called Greek philosophy (Plato traveled to Iran to learn philosohy from the Persian magi)...Greek astrology also comes almost directly from Iran.
Listened to this again, unlike the 12 links, the buddhist explanation of the 4 elements would be something I’d directly import. The astrological 12 houses are fine, there’s just a way the 12 links work that are astrologically interesting.
A word many use for water is “cohesive”. With them, the 4 elements are part of life experience you’ll always experience together, but with different ratios where one is more prominent. Earth is the only element that is solid, can be physically touched. Food, it’ll be earth but celery has air and water in it. Eating, the object being chewed (earth), saliva softening the food to swallow (water) to stomach (fire), to digestion to blood stream (water) as the solid (earth) moves through digestion, fire is also the metabolism, blood (water) needs oxygen (air) to sustain. Of course, solid waste and liquid waste with burned nutrients. Aid association with communication, lungs and the air vibration on vocal cords but this also has earth. Modalities, I’m wondering about “rebirth, karma, impermanence” as being somewhat equivalent. But, elements work. Not a replacement, it’s just a thing about “if something is true..” it’ll exist cross culturally.
Next, I’m spending more on the “house debate” topic where I do have a feeling quadrants work due to various rulership schemes.
Just some “outside of astrology” keywords.
Water: clarity, fertility, spontaneity and cohesion, lacking grasp, over emotional.
Fire: creative/catalytic spark, sexual union, anger, restlessness, anxiety.
Air: change, growth, communication, ventilation, messenger of inner/outer, unstable, restless, dispersion.
Earth: stability, nurturing, physical, rooted, too serious, mechanical.
Very very similar.