The journals in the Nibelheim library answered everything. Most gamers did not take the initiative to search the bookcases in the back. They describe the escape and subsequent pursuit, but they also show that while Zack did not experience a reaction to JENOVA treatment, Cloud did. We discover that the soldiers let Cloud go (they say he “escaped” in the report) because of his “diminishing consciousness.” He’s not considered a threat because his treatment was incomplete. That's why Cloud had glowing eyes even though he was never a SOLDIER, he had been through Phases I and II of the experiment but unfortunately not Phase III which grants conscious control and stability over the Jenova cells. When Tifa finds him in Mideel, he’s been diagnosed with Mako poisoning. In fact, it’s so severe that the doctor says Cloud should not have survived. Now, Cloud is one tough SOB, but that’s not why he pulls through. He already had Mako in his bloodstream from the earlier experiments. It was at this point that Cloud got his third dose of Mako, completing Phase III. That's why when Sephiroth tries to control him after the final battle, Cloud is able to overcome and defeat him once and for all...until Advent Children anyway.
Interesting take. I've heard of another theory recently, about summons. Their origin is never adressed throughout the game, but they're used as regular materia, although there isn't that much summon materia around. In the lore of FFVII, materia forms from the crystallization of Mako/lifestream over time. Some of the most powerful materia in the game can be found either in remote areas which cannot be easily accessed (unless you're a chocobo breeder lol), or places lost and forgotten (the temple and city of the ancients, for example), which could indicate that some materia grow stronger if it's absorbing energy over extended periods of time. What if the summon materia was the embodiement of the Ancients' spiritual powers ? It's told at some point in the game some of them managed to fight and defeat Jenova, most likely at the cost of their lives. If their spiritual energy didn't vanish upon death, maybe they transformed into materia over time. Maybe that would explain why this specific type of materia is so scarce, and so overpowered.
That's a cool theory. Like the Ancient's life force crystalizing into powerful summon materia, to maybe aid as weapons against any further battles with Jenova.
After playing ffviii and ffix, I started thinking something similar but with a twist. Across final fantasy there have been two primary types of summons, espers (living beings that have gorged themselves on too many souls/mako/whatever the game calls the stuff) and Eidolons (latin for ghost of an idea; when summoning a dead esper it is in fact an eidolon, but not all eidolons come from beings that existed prior to people believing they existed and putting a nontrivial amount of souls into making them exist) Summon materia seems to be of the Eidolon category. I originally thought it was of the dead-esper magicte core variety (ffvi and ffxii are good examples of this) but after playing 8 and 9 I changed my mind, since materia is the knowledge and power of the ancients in crystal form it makes more sense for them to be eidolon's dreamt up by the memories of the dead, much like ffx's Aeons
That's possible, but remember the Titan materia, it was created in a mako reactor explosion, and I'm pretty sure that KOTR was created in a mako spring naturally, it had just been growing there for a very very long time.
One of the things I like about FF7 is that there is so much room for interpretation in the story (I choose to believe this is intentional, rather than sloppy writing)
Legit theory. Also, most of Aerith's limit breaks revolved around healing. So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she could have had a hand in cloud recovering so quickly.
This actually makes a ton of sense. Huh... I wonder if this is the angle they'll work in the remake projects. We're already getting massively expanded plot points. I'm inclined to believe that with all the added exposition and dialogue, that stuff like this will become a more natural element to the narrative. They'll have a LOT more resources with which to explain certain events this time around, and this plot point in particular is very important to the overall narrative. I wouldn't be surprised if what Square comes up with is very close to this, as this theory does a pretty damn good job of explaining how everything works. Idk who started the work on this theory, or who put the pieces together, but I think you explained it in a very digestible way. Stuff like this just gets me even MORE pumped for the remake. Sure the graphics will be pretty, and the combat will be flashy and cool (looking forward to playing Tifa the most), but the greatly enhanced narrative is what I'm looking forward to the most. Square has a rare opportunity to expand on the original narrative with the benefit of hindsight of the compilation works. The writers have a golden chance to make all the compilation works connect in a beautiful and satisfying way by expanding the world of the original. I sincerely hope they make the most of it and make the world of FFVII more complete and grounded than we ever thought possible.
Dude, this is FF... If you've ever played any if their games or just been to videogamerecaps dot com you'll know that the creators of/writers of FF can't do a story without making it without plot holes, WTF?!, and the age old, (and my favorite,) a WIZARD DID IT!!
Interesting... But my understanding of what happened in Advent Children is that Cloud got Geostigma because of the Jenova cells in his body. The children got it because of Jenova’s presence in the Lifestream from which they were born, and their bodies were rejecting it. If Geostigma is an autoimmune disease caused by the body rejecting Jenova, how do we explain Cloud getting Geostigma in the first place if Jenova’s cells are already gone? Additionally, I always interpreted Cloud sort of splitting into two just before the final “battle” in the game as the point at which he fully overcomes having Jenova cells in his body and completely retakes control despite the foreign presence, with the time he spent with Tifa in the Lifestream really only being the beginning of this sort of healing process. How do we explain Cloud and only Cloud hearing Sephiroth’s voice and sensing him after the Safer Sephiroth’s battle if the connection through his Jenova cells is already gone? And his seeming to become two entities for the final confrontation-is this not the pseudo-Cloud formerly controlled by Jenova?
I always thought about why Aeris didn't tell "Zack" Cloud about his obvious repressed or disregarded memories he has on his first Lifestream adventure. She knew a decent bit of the truth at that point and kept it to herself. The best I could come up with was that it would have done more harm to him at that point than good. When Tifa fell into the Lifestream with Cloud the second time, Aeris saw that as the opportunity to have Tifa break it down to him. Coming from Tifa, it would do a lot less harm to him mentally. I was really hoping they would have had some kind of minor interaction in Crisis Core to flesh that out a little bit. Her initial reaction to Cloud and the Buster Sword in FF7 could have been a "Where do I remember this dude from and why does he have Zacks sword" kinda deal. That "love triangle" has been one of my favorite parts of the story and I really wanted them to flesh it out more. At least we got Crisis Core to get Zack's side of things. Maybe the next In-Depth could be about him. We all know whichever one you are working on next is fake and gay anyway.
@@krismitchell5496 Looks like you don't catch a lot of his live streams.😅 It's an inside joke. RUclips comment sections are Cancer, in general. Troll comments can usually just be abreviated to some version of "This is fake and gay".
Man, chat's always having the best discussions without me I love theory vids, we should definitely do more! That said, I have two small questions about this one. 1. If Cloud's Jenova cells were ripped out of him, why does he still have the edge over the other squadmates? In all canon during the game and after the game, he's shown as the strongest member of AVALANCHE in feats of strength (barring maybe Vincent, who probably can't die). This is always assumed to be from Cloud having the soup of Hojo's Experiments/Mako/Jenova Cells that make him superhuman. Even the higher class SOLDIERs had Jenova cells inserted into them too, like Zack. Yes, Tifa in AC does similar feats for a short time, but since most of her moves against Loz were inspired by her limit breaks, I'm assuming she was doing limit after limit break, like her actual limit in-game, and adrenaline. Cloud has an edge generally, and I thought his Jenova Cells were a big part of that. However, I like how your and hotaru's theory works well in conjunction with Cloud getting Geostigma and how it wouldn't work if he had Jenova cells in him already, I like that angle. Food for thought. 2. What about the final battle of FF7? You said Sephiroth couldn't mess with Cloud's mind after Cloud was thrown into the Lifestream, but that final scripted battle mano y mano has always been ousting any remnants of Sephiroth from cloud's subconscious, AFAIK. Thanks, keep the theory vids coming!
I think Cloud is just a bad mofo because he's Cloud. He's the main character and don't take no crap from nobody. The final boss battle is pretty good evidence against this theory though. There's probaboy some theories you could construct as to why it works though, like maybe that mind trick was an extra power Sephiroth obtained once he became the all powerful being with the black materia. Or perhaps that was more of an inside battle within Cloud and that wasn't actually Sephiroth he was fighting?
@@4-8Productions true. Cloud sure is messed up in the head. It still works as a last ditch effort by Sephiroth to try and beat Cloud in a final fight, Jenova cells or no Jenova cells. Badass game is still badass. Thanks Death see ya
What I'm about to say isn't really a theory but it's pretty funny and weird: So me and my friend were playing through FF7 and on one of the first missions near the train station in Midgar there were these 2 NPCs. We walked up to them and they were speaking to each other something along the lines of: "this is the first time we have agreed on something" "Yes" "Are you ready?" "Let's do it" And they walked past each other and fell over lmao. Who are these NPCs and what were they talking about?
I always assumed when he fell into the lifestream that's when he transported through time and ended up in tactics and all the other games. Upon his arrival back his brain became all scrambled and thus Tifa had to put him back together.
As much sense as that makes, it could be a case of Jenova cells being pushed out by the Mako but in doing so, caused him to go into such a state? I mean, in the movie they stated he had the cells still in him but Sephiroth still lost the connection due to the mako, maybe? I believe this is pointed out in the movie. Another thought is that his memories were being altered the first time by Zack, not on purpose though. It was states that materia is condensed memories of the people in the Lifestream so that may be why it took so long the first time and why his memory needed to be found and pieced together within the lifestream. Just a thought. I could be wrong.
I think there could be some ground to believe the Jenova cells are what's keeping Cloud the way he is. They could be preserving Zack's memory which they could have been responsible for assimilating and giving to Cloud in the first place. And Cloud's Jenova cells could of been damaged by the live stream, causing Cloud to go into recovery. The reason his memory is so messed being that mako poisoning corrupted his memory in the first place. With the help of Aeris, Tifa, and potentially the remaining Jenova cells he could recover with help of Tifa's memory.
I got a crazy Theory... I always thought Vincent was Sephiroths father.. in the old instruction Booklet their Stats are similar.. near same height and stuff.. Also.. Hojo looks nothing like Sephiroth.. I think Vincent had a Affair with Sephiroth's mother.. Plus when you meet Sephiroth's mother behind the waterfall.. she calls out for Sephiroth and Vincent.. I do not think she calls for Hojo.. I could be wrong.. its been a while..
Oh I also support this theory. I think Hojo would have known and didn't care, after all he just wanted a test subject and not a child. And it would make everything so much more dramatic.
It was explained kinda wierdly in Dirge. Vincents dad protects lucrecia from chaos in the cave one day and he dies since he's an ordinary human. Because of this, she pushes Vincent away out of guilt when he starts getting feelings. In her stupidity, she gets together with Hojo to make a baby so they can experiment on it. Vincent confronts Hojo, gets terminally injured, lucrecia turns him all immortal so he can survive a chaos implantation. so much wierdness in all that stuff. but yeah, they only had sephiroth to be an experiment, she volunteered to be injected with jenova cells while pregnant. and went insane =D
It could be that Mako poisoning is poisoning of the mind and not of the body. We see no physical symptoms in the game that I can recall, other than a catatonic state. If the Lifestream is the memories and emotions of those who have died, and Mako is manufactured Lifestream, then too much could cause an overload of information which causes you to lose your sense of self. When Tifa helps Cloud find himself, she essentially cures him. She sorta cured him when they first met by triggering his memoreis, but it ultimately wasnt enough as he was still confused. Just my thoughts.
This was fantastic. I hope you do more of this. My love of FF7 stems mostly from the lore, the incredible story, the compelling characters (aside Cait Sith). This is the biggest reason for which I am subscribed to your channel. I look forward to more like these.
There is a theory that rufus shinra was secretly aiding cloud and his team along the way. But rufus didnt want to be shown overtly helping cloud. Why? Well, because shinra had its hands full with weapons and meteor and mass chaos. Let alone not being able to touch sephiroth. So rufus decided that cloud and his team continue to succeed where shinra fails and neutralizing the northern crater is a mutual goal.
Amazing theory. I've watched this three times and this is a compelling argument. I never understood the Mako poisoning from the trip through the lifestream; It just didn't add up so I assumed it was brain damage from extended time without oxygen to the brain and that returning to it, without drowning again, could fix him, since it's concentrated-life-water and all.
Interesting. However, I personally think Cloud regains his psyche due to the Jenova cells still in his body, paired to his connection with Tifa, since part of Jenova's power is to merge with other beings. In sort of the same sense that he gained Zach's memories when he died, he regained his own memories through Tifa's recollection of him. I think the Jenova cells in cloud only relinquish themselves after his final battle with shirtless Sephiroth, since I believe Sephiroth and Jenova were sort of one in the same, and it is debatable who exactly is holding control of who at that point. That battle was symbolism of his body being able to finally fight Sephi/Jenova's control after they had defeated his and Jenova's main bodies.
As a side note - I think Sephiroth "going mad" after finding out what he did about his birth, and studying Jenova, wasn't so simple. I think in that moment, because his original idea about himself was crashing down around him, his mind was more susceptible to Jenova's control due to the cells in his body, and I think a lot of his psyche was lost and taken over by Jenova. At least that's my theory :)
@@ATDF1 I actually like that idea. Sephiroth may have just completely lost his shit similar to how Cloud did when Sephiroth showed him the true events of the Nibelheim Incident. Sephiroth's idea of who he was came crashing down around him, allowing for the Jenova cells (which he had a lot more of, compared to everybody else) within him to take control. And since, y'know, Jenova is an asshole alien creature that just wants to kill everything, combined with Sephiroth's weakened mental state, caused him to kill everyone and burn the town down. Then you factor in Hojo's Reunion theory, alongside the fact that Jenova's main body was stuck pretty close by at Mt. Nibel at the time. Jenova-controlled Sephiroth burns the town down then heads off to reunite with the rest of Jenova at the reactor.
@@doctorsmiles2209 Yep. I always thought that was the most reasonable explanation. Sephiroth and Cloud are just a duality of the same unfortunate fate.
It's solid, but I'm confused as to how Cloud would remain as strong and capable as a SOLDIER even without his Jenova Cells. If this could be explained or accounted for, I'm sold!
this is the one thing i thought of during the video too! the Jenova cells are what made cloud “powerful” enough to withstand everything he went through/fight sephiroth. if there’s an explanation of how he keeps his strength, then i’m sold
LUNATIC_ GAMER719 thats what I thought too. Its weird that none of the other members of soldier were drawn to the reunion though.. any ideas as to why that is? I always thought the cells were what made cloud strong as well
He did not get mako poisoning because it wasn't mako. Mako is the condesned liquid form of lifestream. Lifestream alone is mild. Kids, drugs are okay if taken moderately and safely.
Man, I've never stopped to think about this topic, it makes a lot of sense! Very interesting theory, I think it makes even more sense than the mako poisoning! PS: I miss watching your gameplays :'( Work has been killing my free time Keep up the good work, Death!! :D
I like this theory since it explains what Aerith had been doing while dead. However, Cloud doesn't just have Jenova cells, he has S-Cells (Sephiroth's Cells). He is technically a 'clone' of Sephiroth at the genetic level. Because he is a SUCCESSFUL clone, Sephiroth's cells are now a cellular part of Cloud and cannot be undone/extracted. This is why Cloud still retains his strength, power, and speed even after Tifa mentally restores him - Cloud is still a part of Sephiroth (which debunks the theory that Sephiroth extracted his cells). In fact, Cloud is the only one who can take on Sephiroth (on both a physical and metaphysical level) BECAUSE of their connection via their S-cells. Had Sephiroth been successful in extracting his cells out of Cloud, Cloud would've returned to his pre-Nibelheim-Incident level. In Parasite Eve (which was the original premise for FF7), we see a similar predicament play out. Aya Brea obtains power from being genetically linked to her dead sister via an eye transplant. This process cannot be reversed, which is why Eve fails to absorb her. Aya can never be 'healed' of her tainted mitochondria since it's now a part of her at the genetic level, much like Cloud can never be healed of his S-cells since it's now a part of him.
Yes I agree what makes Cloud different is he has the s cells that's also why he isn't effected by the reioun. I think what happens after the nibelheim accident. Is once sephorith is defeated Jenova takes over Sephorith. I think her plan was to use sephorith in his weekend state to free her. Once he falls into the lifestream she brings him to the northern crater to heal his body to use it as a vessel. This is why sephorith doesn't seem to recognize cloud at all when they 1st meet. Cloud still has Sephoriths cells in him thats why he heard the warning from sephorith about the reactor at the beginning. It's also why Sephorith 1st appears at Shinra Headquarters. I think Sephorith was able to materialize a clone or reappear himself at clouds position. That's why all the blood seems to start at clouds cell. Later in the game sephorith gains some of himself back which is why he seems to remember cloud
That's very interesting, hadnt thought about it like that. It does make sense, and it is in depth enough that it actually could be how things happened behind the scenes. I can tell this took plenty of time and thought to complete, well done
Paul Newhouse I think it was another one of those creepy Hojo Experiments. It’s main attacks were its jaws, appendages, summoning minions that it had control of, and its rawr that caused debuffs. I theorize that it was a failed attempt to create a clone of J-E-N-O-V-A, or an experiment on an overdose of J-E-N-O-V-A cells, can’t put my finger on it. What do you think? It’s main weakness was Fire.
Hmmmm interesting case. But I think SquareEnix should be the one to answer all those questions. After all, FF7 it’s their golden baby, and fans would love to hear about it
So much to think about. I really want to play through FFVII again to re-read the dialogue. I think the theory holds up pretty well. I wouldn’t want to critique it because it’s been a few years since I played. My favourite theory (One that seems to be pretty much considered wrong) is that Jenova is the real antagonist of the game. Sephiroth died in the Mt. Nibel reactor and all that remains is his torso in the North Crater (containing the Jenova cells). It says in game how Jenova can change it’s appearance and I think Sephiroth is how it chooses to appear to Cloud (and the rest of the party by association) because it has the desired effect on him. I really should replay and pore over the dialogue some more.
I really like this theory, and everything seems on point, but what about at the end of the original game where Sephiroth forcefully rips Cloud’s mind or spirit or whatever to have the final confrontation that you can’t lose? Wouldn’t that imply he still had Jenova cells in him?
This isnt a theory(maybe a little), but what the hell happened at the nibel reactor when cloud throws sephiroth into the lifestream while being impaled on sephiroth's sword? Like cloud is a lowly shinra grunt who failed to get into SOLDIER, while zack who is 1st class gets wiped out totally by seph. There seems like a lot of cut content in ff7 like certain bosses etc so maybe they also cut a lot of story. I wonder if cloud had some back story that got cut. Maybe he had some particular ancient heritage or something and due to budget constraints (ff7 one of the most expensive games at the time) they cut this. The reason why i say this is because throughout the game Cloud barely talks about his whole village getting murdered, he has no flashbacks of his family. Ok he might be an only child with a single mother but we barely get to see how her dying affected him. He bare even mentions her if at all when he confronts sephiroth, nor do we see much interaction with her. I find this particularly odd as at the time Sakaguchi's mother passed, and it led to him wanting to put a sense of loss by killing off Aerith in the game. So what i want to know is why wasnt there more screen time with cloud's mum? I mean both Cloud & Sakaguchi lost their mother, but Cloud seems relatively unaffected throughout the game about hee. This is why i think that she was cut because her role was involved in defining exactly who or what cloud was and why he was able to throw around a god of man sephiroth. Maybe he had some ancient blood or something and some scenes with Cloud's mother alluded to that but they decided that it would take way too long to explain that part and they decided to cut most of her from the game. Look we dont even know his Mum's name......
Cloud beating Seph doesn't have a logical explanation. It's part that Seph was fatigued/weakened from the Zack fight, part surprise, part sudden superhuman strength under duress (which is documented but rare), and part Seph was willing to go to the Lifestream anyway. As to how he lived after that, he has Hojo to thank. He and Zack were found, rehabilitated, and also biologically experimented upon.
@@retrogamerdad9621 i dont think that is a concrete explanation. It seems very strange that cloud can beat a weakened sephiroth when he himself is wounded grieviously
I liked your theory, I think a few small details might be different but all in all a solid theory. One theory I've heard and have totally signed on to is Jenova is a Chaos Weapon from another world. The Chaos Weapon always causes the end of their world and summons Omega Weapon that turn into the life stream and jettison off the planet joining the greater Lifestream, but what happens to the Chaos Weapon? I think it just drifts in space indefinitely. I believe Jenova was one of those that ended up falling on Gaia.
Oh man, this is what I love! Nothing like a new theory on a 20+ year old game to give us fans something to ponder over. So thank you Death & Hotaru for this exercise! Having never considered such a theory before, I'm intrigued if there's more to it that's been omitted for the sake of making a concise video. Now with the reunion theory fused into this one, if Sephiroth could just pull out the Cloud Jenova cells without actually needing Cloud's body, why wouldn't he do the same for the hooded figures? Like why not snatch Cloud completely? Also, wouldn't he seek the Jenova cells Hojo infused himself with in the final Midgar battle? Maybe that's stretching things out and detracting from this particular theory. Perhaps Sephiroth only needed a minimum amount of cells to create Jenova Synthesis. I guess I always looked at it as though Cloud's behavior with Zack before Midgar and then his behavior after showing up at Mideel seemed similar: he was like a lost puppy looking for any kind of direction, whether that was using false memories or finding his true self. But then again, the fact that Cloud can't be manipulated by Sephiroth/Jenova after the Lifestream event is a very good point. Maybe his influence only works on those with weak minds or spirit, like the hooded figures, and when Cloud emerges from the Lifestream he's far stronger of being than he was in the beginning. In conclusion, Thanksgiving.
nahh, it was more like Cloud's body partly adapted to the Jenova cell while some residue or rejected by his body still remain flowing in his body, giving side effects like messing up his memories and what influence Cloud under Sephiroth's control, this is proven with Cloud's super SOLDIER capabilities which he never had before the experiment, at the same time his state of mind is susceptible to the effects of Mako infusion/Jenova Cell. some instances when Cloud's mind was influenced or affected by Mako infusion/Jenova Cell 1. When Zack died, Cloud got shocked and truamatized by this experienced he snapped out of his condition and with him taking on Zack's legacy, Cloud became willful to continue and then proceed to Midgar thus getting over his catatonic state. 2. When Cloud started realizing he was being controlled all along by Sephiroth into giving the Black materia and kill Aerith, Cloud began to be afraid and lose confidence as a result. This was made worse when Sephiroth was revealed everything Cloud believed and remembered about being in SOLDIER was all made up, which drove Cloud to confusion and lose it further when Sephiroth told him he has no memory because he is just a puppet, and Hojo told him he is just a Sphiroth clone. This made Cloud lost his will, which result to getting back to catatonic state or probably worse than when he was in Shinra basement. What cured Cloud is no doubt the Lifestream, and with the help of Aerith and Tifa for piecing together Cloud's memories and what really helped Cloud , was the fact that he was indeed Cloud who has memories who also confronted Sephiroth during Nibel incident to help Tifa, and he's not a Spehiroth clone although never been part of SOLDIER. this help regain Cloud's will and once and for all, get over his catatonic state.
Pretty cool theory I think it makes enough sense. One thing i recently got interested in is who infalna mentioned in the snow village documents. The first person sent to infect the people of guia when jenova first landed. Infalna says (he acted like a friend at first infecting everyone at the north scar spreading the jenova virus to the planet before they realised he was a threat 2000 years ago. I think perhaps jenova had a champion like sephiroth if not sephiroth himself 2000 years ago to help take over the planet. He is only mentioned once in Dr gasts recordings as a he and as a separate person from jenova at least thats all i have heard of him. It makes me wonder if this was sephiroth and if so it hints at a much older relationship with jenova than his birth by lucrecias and hojo.
I always looked at it as he had mako poisoning the second time when he was found, but was able to recover much quicker since his body had already been saturated with mako in the past, leading him to have a natural resistance to it and thus recover quicker from it.
as much as this theory makes sense, you're forgetting the fight with Hojo, where he injects jenova cells into himself. therefore sephiroth doesn't have access to ALL of her cells, since cloud and friends destroy Hojo at that point.
Yeah.. not having 100% complete jenova, sure.. I suppose that could be an issue but to me it just feels like... how would cells that aren’t part of a life form that it’s a parasite on move from a lab? I mean you’re not wrong, don’t get me wrong.. I just want to believe this so badly lol.
Interesting theory over all. I always assumed that when Tifa and Cloud fell into the Lifestream the planet itself (and maybe Aerith) helped Tifa heal Cloud because she could fill in the missing gaps for Cloud and the reason why Cloud's psyche was messed up was because his memories were mixed up from the beginning. Its a combo of Hojo's experiments to make the perfect "Sephiroth Clone" and the fact that Sephiroth was able to use Cloud as a puppet and then threw him away like trash when he was done. Yet somewhere in Cloud's mind the truth was always there. We also could say that Cloud experienced a good amount of trauma on top of witnessing Zack's demise. The doctor doesn't actually know Cloud to know his background and so seeing his Mako infused eyes may have made him make a mistake in his diagnoses. It wasn't that Cloud was suffering from Mako poisoning. It was what it always was, Sephiroth and Jenova's influence due to her cell's. The Lifestream of course curing this.
Couple of queries: 1. Sephiroth makes him wig out and pulls Cloud's mind into the lifestream at the end of the game in the scripted encounter. Cloud wins of course, but Sephiroth presumably couldn't do that if he didn't have Jenova cells in him still? 2. Why would Sephiroth not simply kill Cloud to complete the reunion like Jenova did with the clones, if he didn't simply fall into the lifestream as a result of the cave collapsing? Surely it fits better that Cloud fell in at the reunion, and that suited Sephiroth just fine since he had no use for him at that point? Bonus: Should Cloud have got a powerup from bathing in the mako on the way to Mideel (other than gameplay reasons)?
Here's a pretty wild theory, Jenova is an evolved form of Lavos from Chrono Trigger. Both of them are interstellar alien life forms that crash land on their respective planets millions of years in the past, and then use their power to manipulate people in the host world. What's more, at the end of Chrono Trigger, it indicates that Lavos was in the middle of evolving itself by taking genetic information from the population of the host planet and this allowed it to take on a more humanoid form. All this being the case, Jenova could actually be a Lavos Spawn that is from this evolved strain.
Love it. Keep it up death and community. As far as the theory, I had to watch this a few times to fully digest the info but it all makes sense to me. I think I can add some spice to the mix though. Yes, Sephiroth does remove the Jenova cells from Cloud, leaving him for dead, and Aeris does keep him alive. BUT! She couldn't do anything about restoring the mind of the true Cloud because she simply didn't know who he was. And, neither did he. After all, she only met Zack-Cloud in Midgar and didn't know any of his past like Tifa did. So, the best she could do was restore his body and spit him out of the Lifestream, leaving his mind basically blank. Something like a Mako _cleansing_ would be the term that comes to my mind. When they fall in the Lifestream for a second time, Tifa is verbally assaulted by.....something. My guess is that this is Aeris being mad at Tifa for hiding the truth and not helping Cloud sort out his memories in the first place. Tifa was going through her own trauma though. Her mom died and she got hurt falling off the cliff (in the same day I think) so her own memories are jumbled. She denies being the cause of Clouds problems but Aeris sends her into Clouds consciousness to make things right. They sort out their memories (and feelings) for each other and Aeris spits them out of the Lifestream. Send me a DM if you want to try to connect some more dots. QbRt#3097
The novel "The Maiden Who Travels the Planet" is pretty clear as to what Aeris does with Cloud and Tifa in the lifestream, however I really like the idea of Aeris clearing Cloud's mind. It might explain his state being worse than the first time he got Mako Poisoning better than "the Jenova cells got ripped out and therefore he's braindead"
Interesting theory. I have a theory though which might just go in tandem with it. I call it Sephiroth IS Jenova. More specifically, the Sephiroth we see through most of the game is in fact the body, or parts of Jenova taking his form. Before hand, let me apologize for the length and possible sloppyness of the writing here. It's late for me and I wanted to get as much of this theory of mine into writing while this video was fresh in my mine. So the First time we see or have anything to do with Jenova or Sephiroth really is in the Shinra Tower when Cloud, Barret and Tifa stumble upon Jenova's headless body in Hojos Lab. Not long after this Sephiroth breaks into the building and steals Jenova, Killing President Rufas along the Way. Palmer himself states that it was in fact Sephiroth. Problem is, The timing of this is too coincidental for me. Sephiroth just happens to break in right after Cloud and crew first see Jenova? More likely I think is that Jenova reacted to Cloud, who was there when Sephiroth was thrown into the lifestream, and awakened somehow. Remember how Cloud reacted from seeing Jenova, maybe the same thing happened in reverse. Every other time we see sephiroth after this is weird as well, such as when the group first encounters Jenova Birth on the way to Costa Del Sol. You see a Shinra guard die, then Sephiroth appears and flies around before disappearing and leaving Jenova behind to fight, then Jenova dies leaving a piece of tentacle behind which withers away. I think what really happened here is that Jenova manipulated the cells within the Shinra guard to appear as Sephiroth and then left a piece of herself behind after the crew defeats her. This same kind of explanation can be applied to when you fight Jenova Life and Death as well. So then The Sephiroth that we see and interact with throughout the game is not Sephiroth at all, but rather Jenova or someone infected with Jenova cells being manipulated into appearing as Sephiroth so as to egg on Shinra and Cloud and get what she and her son, who is still trapped in the Mako crystal at the Northern Crater want, The Black Materia. This makes even more sense if you think about what Jenova is and what it is capable of. In the town just before the Northern cave is the logs of Prof Gast and Aeris's mom, who explains to the professor that Jenova appeared before the Ancients as a friend. This can be interpreted as she literally took a friendly form and just like with the crew manipulated them into getting what she wants, all thousands of years before Sephiroth even exists. Also I think your mistaken about Reunion. You mention that Sephiroth is pulling Jenova Cells together, but it was Hojo who first postulated that reunion is in fact something intrinsic to Jenovas being. That is to say that if torn apart her pieces would always come together, even on a cellular level. This means that Jenova would be able to control Cloud to a degree, particularly when he is closer to her head, which is in the northern crater. This is backed up when Hojo says of Cloud "Well, at least this proves my reunion theory." implying that Cloud was drawn here by Jenova so she could reclaim her cells, which is backed up by your theory I think as Cloud than has all the Jenova Cells pulled from him. So then the only two time (Aside from flashbacks) that we ever truly see Sephiroth are at the Northern Crater and during the Final Boss Battle. That leaves only one question in my mind, Who is in Control. If we accept that all the freaky stuff that happens when Sephiroth appears, his uncanny timing and his influence over cloud are all explained by saying it was Jenova the Whole time; we then have to ask weather Jenova is Using Sephiroth, or if Sephiroth is commanding Jenova. There is strong evidence perhaps that Sephiroth is being controlled, as we know he doesn't start going insane until first entering Jenovas chamber on Mount Nibel after all. Also, as we have established that the Sephiroth for most of the game is in fact Jenova that would also mean he never talks after falling in the lifestream. And he did fall into the lifestream with Jenovas head, meaning her brain and presumably the majority of her mental capacity after all. If it is the case that Sephiroth is just a puppet it would mean that Cloud almost never interacts with Sephiroth at all in the game as the rest of the time it is Jenova using his image. Alternatively it could be that having access to Jenovas head allows Sephiroth to control Jenova, and through her act to bring the Black Materia to him. After all, the only way Sephiroth would know about Black Materia is through Jenova presumably. The best evidence for Sephiroth being in control, aside from making Jenova take his form, is that he is fought last. Jenova is in fact guarding Sephiroth as he absorbs the planets energy as opposed to the other way around. Granted I rather favor a third option wherein the two have a mutual relationship. Perhaps Jenova genuinely sees Sephiroth as her child and acts accordingly. In this scenario Jenova sacrificing parts of herself in the form of the boss battles Jenova Birth, Life and Death makes sense, and so would her making cloud give the Materia to Sephiroth specifically. So in summary, I propose that the "Sephiroth" we see throughout most of the game is not Sephiroth at all, but rather either Jenova herself or someone infected with her cells manipulated to appear as Sephiroth so as to best manipulate both Shinra and Cloud into doing her biding. Also, it is possible that either Jenova is and has always been controlling Sephiroth (which would actually make him kinda tragic), or he is controlling her and using Jenovas abilities to his advantage. Either way, love your videos, Thank you for reading this whole long thing and Keep doing what you do!
The thing about mako poisoning is that we have keep acting it's either similar to radiation poisoning or some other illness. The thing with mako and the lifestream itself is that it's the accumulation of the dead's soul in a way, their thoughts and personalities. It's stated that being in the lifestream can make you loose a sense of self as you fade, it makes you forget who you are and only a few people can maintain a distinct sense of self while in it. Aerith as a Cetra has a inherit control and Sepheroth is just strong in mind and will. Cloud the first time had a large does of mako but insignificant when looking at the lifestream. As such his sense of self was partially eroded away. The second time he was practically destroyed conplwtely, having already lost off sense of self to begin with, being in the lifestream itself made himself catatonic. It's only because Aerith saved him that he had a mind at all, but Aerith herself admits that she doesn't have a grand amount of power when it comes to the lifestream. She at best probably could guide Cloud to shore and maybe protect his mind from complete destruction. Aerith could only really reclaim minds that she knows, people like Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, and Zack. She really doesn't know the true cloud and would have only broken him more if she tried. I think it was a combined effort with Tifa, Cloud, and Aerith acting as a guardian, that gave Cloud his sense of self back. There is no hint as well that Sepheroth wants to rebuild Jenova if I remember. He has a destiny and mother complex sure. But the reunion theory ingame only really says that Jenova cells instinctively seekout each other, but there is nothing really to sugest that Sepheroth was actively seeking them out. I mean we see in game he has a great disregard for literal pieces of Jenova, using them as distractions and enemies against the party. Even failed clones never make it to him, falling into caverns or dying in their way. Lastly Clouds superhuman abilities come from Jenova cells and he shows them off a lot in the ending cavern as well as Advent Children, in game he jumps over insane distances and in Advent Children he cleves several ton rubble in two. The others are insane in ability and skill yes but only soldiers are shown to have the strength and ability Cloud shows off, which implies it's their training and Mako shower that gives them the power.
I love this theory. It always bothered me that Sephiroth did not try to mess with Cloud's mind after we find him in Mideel. Like, at the end of the game the dude is right there and is successfully murdering your various forms. Why not try it, Sephy? All it would have taken was a throw away line of him trying to control Cloud but Cloud resisting because of his healed psyche allowing him to fight it off, but that didn't happen. And Sephiroth seems like the type of guy to give himself any advantage he can get to see his plan come to fruition. But, if he knows he can't control Cloud because he was the one to rip those cells out of Cloud in the first place, then that suddenly makes complete sense. Of course he wouldn't try it, he already knows it won't work.
Two things bug me: 1) Aren't Jenova cells inside Cloud supposed to be defeated in the very last moment of the game after Safer Sephirot fight? 2) What about Lucrecia? She actually carries Jenova cells but never leaves the cave even in sequels
Adding to this comment, isnt hojo carrying jenova cells? Im gonna assume theres some ways to suppress or reject sphiroths ability to manipulate carriers of jenovah cells, although how lucrecia could be doing this despite not even knowing whether sephiroths alive or not leaves a lot more to be speculated...
Concerning Lucrecia I believe we only met her remnant spirit cause those caves where you find old materias and stuff are supposed to be highly mako concentrated so odd things can happen. Still there is no strict rational explanation , in most jrpg you happen to meet character's relatives spirits or ghosts, in this case I like to think it's simply a combined manifestation of Lucrecia's past hermitage/presence and Vincent's desire to be forgiven. The author's left it to be interpretated ans that's for the best 🤔
Could be explained away as she's the mother/host whatever ya wanna call her and him I the dad so it won't work the same on them. But hojo was driven insane or was already insane so didn't work on him, losts of outs for them to use
One question I have with this theory is: how can Cloud feel Sephiroth's presence after defeating his one-winged angel form? Everyone thought they had won after that battle, except him. I think he still had jenova cells inside of him at that point and that's why he had to fight Sephiroth in his mind, it was Sephiroth's last ditch effort to manifest himself through Cloud which failed because Cloud had regained his true sense of self. And I think that's why he suffered from geostigma later on. It seemed like most of the victims of geostigma were either born after the events of meteor (and thus with tainted lifestream at birth) or present in Midgar during the time when the lifestream rushed forth to push back meteor. But Cloud was in the airship flying above it all during that time, not in the lifestream surge. The reason I do believe it was mako poisoning is because mako poisoning isn't a mere physical toxin that makes your body sick, it's an affliction of the mind. By being exposed to mako, you end up absorbing the memories, emotions, and knowledge of the beings who made up that mako energy. For someone like Cloud who admittedly had a weak mind at the time, the flood of memories and knowledge were too much for him to process and he ended up losing his sense of identity because he couldn't tell where he ended and the new memories began. His crisis of identity before falling into the lifestream made him more susceptible to mako poisoning (or mako disorientation would be a better term for it). He had never actually recovered from the first round of mako poisoning. The Jenova cells inside of him had just convinced him that he was an amalgam of multiple people. But after Tifa sorted out his real memories from his fake ones, he regained a lot of mental fortitude and was able to resist the influence of the Jenova cells after that point since he was able to hold on to his true self identity. So I think it makes sense then that if someone is able to get through to a person who has mako sickness and help guide them back to their true self, that is the point at which they could recover from it. Tifa, on the other hand, had a very strong will/self identity and because of that, falling into the lifestream didn't have any significant effect on her beyond her initial shock at being exposed to the sudden rush of other people's memories.
What about clouds strength? Wasn't a lot of it due to the Jenova cells for the soldier training or was there something in crisis core that cleared that up? (only just realised Jenova is spelt a bit like Jehovah thanks spellcheck!) Also assuming IF Sephiroth/Jenova had a choice of pulling the cells wouldn't they prefer to keep some control of Cloud? Could it not be that It was worse the second time because he had already lost his psyche and became Zack/Cloud?
TTTTTANK but it wouldn’t have been worse, as someone pointed out the livestream isn’t as strong a concentration of Mako as Cloud got from Hojo, even though that was after years of experimenting and injectons full of who knows what. Cloud being literally broken because he loses track of who he is after so much time with JENOVA whispering in his head and getting himself mixed up with Zack actually makes a ton of sense. It’s been at least five years since Cloud has been alone in his own brain.
I may be wrong, but was it that every SOLDIER operative has been infused with high mako AND Jenova cells?? If i recall corectly, that's the case, and if it rly is true, that makes Cloud even weaker than the rest, cuz i see no SOLDIER ever went to Reunion, nor being shown. Looks like to me, that all that jenova cells plot wasn't that clear from the start, seems like it was being developed with the game itself, cuz there are many things that were not clarified nor shown. Let's hope that Remake straights some things up ;D
kuksio92 soldier got the shaft in ff7, 2 actually soliders and cloud were it. The remake is adding some. I had chill bumps playing CC as a young adult getting to watch the juno cannon fight, almost fap worthy
I absolutely love this game. had my younger brother play it for the first time earlier this year. He was skeptical at first but loved it at the ending. We talked about a lot of what-ifs which made this video remind me of his play through.
I think Cait Sith is a sentient mind trapped in a body controlled by Reeve, I think that weird dance that he does if hes on your team when aerith dies is him taking control away from Reeve using the power of being-so-scared-you-shit-your-pants That is Caith Sith's first time seeing a real death, because wasnt on the party when the avalanche crew died.
Or. You could just accept the fact that you've been pronouncing "Mako" and "Adamantoise" wrong your entire life. Aduh-Man-TUSS MAH-Ko. Those are the REAL ways to say these words.
The thing is geostigma is caused because the body is rejecting the jenova cells, I always took it as a hint as to how the president survived as well. It would make sense that he took in Jenova cells looking for more power.
I always figured he just had a tolerance the second time, but I'm open to anything that expands some depth without over the top rediculesness. "Multivers giants that show up as ghosts."
Honestly when I played the game I already kinda thought that this was the case. I just didn't think that the whole mako poisoning thing was real, not after Cloud recovered anyway
You know what would be insanely cool? If Square Enix saw this and decided to add this script to the FF7 Remake story. It would blow everyone's mind! Cross your fingers.
Sound theory. My only comment is that after cloud got mako poisoning the first time, he couldn't talk when zack was asking him questions in the back of the truck. cloud is in a very similar state the second time he is allegedly poisoned again when tifa tries to talk to cloud in his catatonic state and he simply responds with gibberish. Either way I think it is safe to assume that the affliction cloud sustained the second time was substantially worse.
Okay, interesting theory. But one person was left out of the equation: Lucrecia. She has Jenova cells in her body too. If this theory is true, then Sephiroth would have needed her too, amd since she's "frozen inside a crystal" (according to Dirge of Cerberus), then he wouldn't be able to recreate Jenova, unless he tracked down Lucrecia and forcefully tried to get her out of that crystal. Which, to be fair, would be interesting, seeing as she's his actual mother, and she could possibly have some sort of redemption (and retcon the travesty that was Dirge). Went off on a tangent there, but the point is, in order for this theory to work, and for Sephiroth's plan to work, Lucrecia would be needed, and the plot would need to be changed to accommodate this. But I love your theory! The idea that Aerith is protecting him makes a lot of sense, and I honestly wish for them to implement all if this into the remake. Imagine Sephiroth coming face to face with his mother, only to try to kill her, call her a mere vessel, and rip the Jenova cells out of her body. And giving subtle acknowledgment that Aerith protected them in the lifestream. This could happen when they revisit the forgotten capital with Bugenhagen. Anyway, just throwing some ideas around.
Tru Cloud! I can dig it. One theory that peaks my interest after watching this. Is I feel Geo-stigma is in fact infecting" young children" or just born. Cloud in fact after his final omni slash battle with Sephiroth. Cloud is "Reborn" once more. I think this a really deep hidden point that the Final fantasy series has always shown. That through life and Death Comes life and Death. Whether it is Kefka from Ff6 blowing up the whole plant to Create the world Of Ff10... or Areith Dying so she can save the Life of Tifa and Cloud. Im still waiting for the day we have balance on RUclips and someone Creates "2/4 production Life Separates Us" Channel . Well thanks if you read this
Cloud was already suffering from some sort of identity crisis and I think with Sethroth tampering worsened it even more to a state to her cloud didn't know who he was. I always saw that final form of Sethroth in his full human form taking place in clouds head as Sethroth final attempt to control Cloud.
I was going through all of your RUclips videos about final fantasy 7 and I've not seen any tutorials about checkable breeding and I was wondering if you might have the time an ability to go ahead and make a chocobo breeding tutorial video
It's a very interesting hypothesis indeed! My only question is how does the jenova cells get put back into his body for advent children? They fight jenova synthesis which it could happen, but what about sephiroth in clouds mind? And in Advent children he still messes with clouds mind a bit. Also if he had jenova cells taken out from him he wouldnt have the same physical abilities. He's been infused with mako, yes, but only 1st class soldiers have been experimented on with jenova that were successful enhanced their abilities( Seph, Angeal, Genesis, Zak) and the exception of cloud, the others in the black capes were weak and could hardly speak.
I've considered a couple of theories.. Prof. Gast is the doctor in Midele. And Sephiroth went as far as Junon holding Jenova's head cause the trail of blood ends there and doesn't continue.. I still believe he died somewhere in Junon (Survived when Cloud threw him into the Mako, ya know being a 'super human' and all)
It's crazy how long it has been since this game came it and still there's so much to figure out. Awesome video and yeah, this theory does make a lot of sense and tie a couple of loose ends in this story. Specially the fact that Sephiroth can no longer control Cloud.
The reunion theory is actually confirmed during the game. Can’t remember if it’s the OG or remake….anyways it states that Jenova was mortally wounded and was in the long process of healing and putting herself back together again. That’s why all the people with Jenova cells were in the process of converging and meeting. Jenova and Sephiroth were actually in acting jenovas ability to heal herself
The biggest hole in this theory is the final 1v1 battle with Cloud and Sephiroth after he still "feels" Sephiroth's presence. This scene is Cloud asserting his will as dominant over Sephiroth's, effectively destroying his influence and dissipating his spirit energy (lifestream goo, whatever you like) once and for all. I'm not sure how this theory would cover that scene. Otherwise, mako poisoning still makes the most sense. The doctor has seen tons of cases of mako poisoning, since the lifestream was on the surface nearby. He's never seen such a bad case because everyone else would've died; Cloud only survived because of the Jenova cells. He healed quickly after the flashback because of the Jenova cells. The thread tying these two together and proving that he still has his Jenova cells the whole game is the Jenova motif and how it's expressed through Cloud - him grabbing his head and hearing a high-pitched noise. The scene in the lifestream sees Tifa almost literally putting Cloud back together via her memories with him, as shown when the parts of him from the three memories form into one Ultra Cloud (lol). However, there's also the key fourth piece that rejoins him, the Jenova cell motif; that's a part of himself that he now has to recognize. After the lifestream bit, we don't have Jenova motif Cloud through the rest of the game (if memory serves), until just before that very final 1v1 battle between Cloud and Sephiroth. Oh boy, this has the makings of the next "Squall Is Dead" theory :)
Only problem is in Advent Children Vincent explains to Cloud that Geostigma is the body trying to fight off alien matter... Jenova cells. Basically Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells, either through Hojo's tinkering (why all the black hooded people were sick) or through contact with the Jenova cell infected lifestream.
that's certainly an interesting idea but I think what matters most for a story like FF7 is that ultimately it's a figurative state he's in after he loses the personal narrative that holds him together and is paralyzed by the shame of his weakness and the lies he's told to hide it, and that it's only through accepting that part of himself, discarding the egotistical desire to elevate himself above others like Sephiroth, and forging for the first time a real relationship with Tifa that he can be redeemed. The reason Sephiroth can no longer control him is because he has grown beyond his desire to be like Sephiroth, thanks in part to Tifa showing him that it's OK to be as vulnerable as he was afraid others would see, because despite that shame you might feel there are other there people who can support you and it's never too late to change. but the Jenova inside of him being removed is really another, more concrete way of saying the same thing, if you think about it, so I guess this theory checks out?
If cloud has the jenova cells taken out of him would he as physically able in advent children? I was under the impression that that was what made him able to fight like a first class soldier (i.e. having essentially the same procedure done on him, just not the training.)
A couple problems with the theory: 1. There are still SOLDIERs in the world (2nd class in Junon, 1st class in Midgar, possibly others that just didn't have story significance) and SOLDIERs all have jenova cells. There is even a guy in Junon who was an ex-soldier who starts dressing up in the sephiroth clone outfits out of compulsion after you get the highwind. 2. As far as I can tell Sephiroth has no real use for Jenova, so the reunion is just a natural phenomenon around Jenova that Sephiroth takes advantage of to get the black materia. That doesn't rule out Cloud not getting mako poisoning the second time since it's also perfectly possible that his original mako poisoning never resolved in the first place... it was just bandaged over with a fake composite persona. Break the persona and Cloud regresses to the original state.
I think I'd be willing to accept this as cannon. I think it fits well with the Jenova reunion that was taking place. I think I'd be curious what Aerith's take is with Cloud's psyche coming back together. She might be happy to see how the resemblance to Zack comes about.
The lifestream is not mako itself. The extraction process condenses and changes the compound is changed. Remember tifa fell also. Zack is also part of cloud in the beginning. Remember they are both part jenova, there for a collective mind and Zack was collectively a joined mind.
I like this theory, and I believe it could be a case of both. Cloud recovering quicker this time could just be from him recovering from the poisoning before and since it is Clouds mind they are in might show why Tifa had an easier time being protected by Aeris. Now the whole thing from AC: Vincent points out that geostigma is the Sephiroth gene or Jenovas memetic legacy. This would also explain to me why Kadaj and the gang calls him brother. To me, that's the part of Cloud and Zachs genetic manipulation by Hojo. I'm pretty sure he inserted not only Jenova cells in them but Sephiroths as well. Attempting to make actual Sephiroth clones. That explains to me why they never got a number like the rest who only got Jenova cells put inside them. But who knows...I really love the theory man, let's keep it going :)
But the final battle against Sephiroth happened because he still has Jenova cells, also in Advent Children Cloud has geostigma because he still have Jenova cells in him right ? That's what I understood, I don't think he ever had been cleaned from it, apart if it's written officially somewhere in the novels.
Just thinking... What about Lucretia? You find her after the reunion and she has Jenova cells. Do we assume that she was absorbed into Jenova? What happened to her after Vincent tells her Sephiroth is dead?
If he had the Jenova cells taken out of him... then what about his Mako Eyes, and also enhanced strength and all that stuff due to side-effects of being a test subject? Wouldn't those be removed as well?
That would support theories of the Doctor in Mideel, previously being a Medic for the Shinra Co. Either working with Soldier or troops deployed by the Company. Either way I sort of Agree with that statement, It be quite a stretch considering Aerith/Aeris didn't have a whole lot of Knowledge about her Ancient bloodline aside from what she was told during and between the events leading up to her death, Its quite possible she knew how too considering. She sort of helps even after she died, and talks to cloud before he goes Catatonic .
I was down for this until we considered Jenova cells being removed from cloud for a few reasons. Sephiroth while not able to control clouds mind the same way he did before the events of the north crater does still mess with his mind at the end of the game. The reason he doesnt have the same control is because clouds restored psyche allows him to resist sephiroth to grater effect but once they defeat safer sephiroth the only thing left sephiroth has to cling to are the jenova cells within cloud, he also alludes to this in AC. we can also consider that after the reunion all the sephiroth clones that no longer had jenova cells died from them being removed likely because those cells had become bound to the host bodies meaning so it could be assumed if cloud no longer had the jenova cells he would have been killed or had different affect in the encounter
The journals in the Nibelheim library answered everything. Most gamers did not take the initiative to search the bookcases in the back. They describe the escape and subsequent pursuit, but they also show that while Zack did not experience a reaction to JENOVA treatment, Cloud did. We discover that the soldiers let Cloud go (they say he “escaped” in the report) because of his “diminishing consciousness.” He’s not considered a threat because his treatment was incomplete. That's why Cloud had glowing eyes even though he was never a SOLDIER, he had been through Phases I and II of the experiment but unfortunately not Phase III which grants conscious control and stability over the Jenova cells. When Tifa finds him in Mideel, he’s been diagnosed with Mako poisoning. In fact, it’s so severe that the doctor says Cloud should not have survived. Now, Cloud is one tough SOB, but that’s not why he pulls through. He already had Mako in his bloodstream from the earlier experiments. It was at this point that Cloud got his third dose of Mako, completing Phase III. That's why when Sephiroth tries to control him after the final battle, Cloud is able to overcome and defeat him once and for all...until Advent Children anyway.
Oooh this is interesting.
Holy shit.
Interesting take.
I've heard of another theory recently, about summons. Their origin is never adressed throughout the game, but they're used as regular materia, although there isn't that much summon materia around.
In the lore of FFVII, materia forms from the crystallization of Mako/lifestream over time.
Some of the most powerful materia in the game can be found either in remote areas which cannot be easily accessed (unless you're a chocobo breeder lol), or places lost and forgotten (the temple and city of the ancients, for example), which could indicate that some materia grow stronger if it's absorbing energy over extended periods of time.
What if the summon materia was the embodiement of the Ancients' spiritual powers ? It's told at some point in the game some of them managed to fight and defeat Jenova, most likely at the cost of their lives. If their spiritual energy didn't vanish upon death, maybe they transformed into materia over time.
Maybe that would explain why this specific type of materia is so scarce, and so overpowered.
Awesome I wish ff7 remake tells us more
That's a cool theory. Like the Ancient's life force crystalizing into powerful summon materia, to maybe aid as weapons against any further battles with Jenova.
Nah
After playing ffviii and ffix, I started thinking something similar but with a twist. Across final fantasy there have been two primary types of summons, espers (living beings that have gorged themselves on too many souls/mako/whatever the game calls the stuff) and Eidolons (latin for ghost of an idea; when summoning a dead esper it is in fact an eidolon, but not all eidolons come from beings that existed prior to people believing they existed and putting a nontrivial amount of souls into making them exist) Summon materia seems to be of the Eidolon category. I originally thought it was of the dead-esper magicte core variety (ffvi and ffxii are good examples of this) but after playing 8 and 9 I changed my mind, since materia is the knowledge and power of the ancients in crystal form it makes more sense for them to be eidolon's dreamt up by the memories of the dead, much like ffx's Aeons
That's possible, but remember the Titan materia, it was created in a mako reactor explosion, and I'm pretty sure that KOTR was created in a mako spring naturally, it had just been growing there for a very very long time.
Ff7 writers are like... yeah...... sure that's what we were going for
Simplicity I second your statement.
One of the things I like about FF7 is that there is so much room for interpretation in the story (I choose to believe this is intentional, rather than sloppy writing)
FF7 story and plot and very existence is an oddity.
Look how broke the programming is.
Still its fucking amazing
I imagined the writers walking in, laughing and calling death fake and gay... but yeah, i liked this theory!
Well, take theory can be supported by the fact that Tifa never got mako eyes even after she and Cloud felt into the lifestream
Wow, a fresh theory in 2019 that has legs! This is a pretty solid one, I'm leaning towards it being true.
I enjoyed this video a lot.
Legit theory. Also, most of Aerith's limit breaks revolved around healing. So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she could have had a hand in cloud recovering so quickly.
This actually makes a ton of sense. Huh... I wonder if this is the angle they'll work in the remake projects. We're already getting massively expanded plot points. I'm inclined to believe that with all the added exposition and dialogue, that stuff like this will become a more natural element to the narrative. They'll have a LOT more resources with which to explain certain events this time around, and this plot point in particular is very important to the overall narrative.
I wouldn't be surprised if what Square comes up with is very close to this, as this theory does a pretty damn good job of explaining how everything works. Idk who started the work on this theory, or who put the pieces together, but I think you explained it in a very digestible way.
Stuff like this just gets me even MORE pumped for the remake. Sure the graphics will be pretty, and the combat will be flashy and cool (looking forward to playing Tifa the most), but the greatly enhanced narrative is what I'm looking forward to the most.
Square has a rare opportunity to expand on the original narrative with the benefit of hindsight of the compilation works. The writers have a golden chance to make all the compilation works connect in a beautiful and satisfying way by expanding the world of the original. I sincerely hope they make the most of it and make the world of FFVII more complete and grounded than we ever thought possible.
Dude, this is FF... If you've ever played any if their games or just been to videogamerecaps dot com you'll know that the creators of/writers of FF can't do a story without making it without plot holes, WTF?!, and the age old, (and my favorite,) a WIZARD DID IT!!
Kris Mitchell Maybe they’re plot holes. Or maybe the plot is so deep, it just looks like a hole ;-p
Actually loved it, the thought of Cloud going through withdrawals is kinda cool. Man I could talk FF7 theory forever.
Interesting... But my understanding of what happened in Advent Children is that Cloud got Geostigma because of the Jenova cells in his body. The children got it because of Jenova’s presence in the Lifestream from which they were born, and their bodies were rejecting it. If Geostigma is an autoimmune disease caused by the body rejecting Jenova, how do we explain Cloud getting Geostigma in the first place if Jenova’s cells are already gone? Additionally, I always interpreted Cloud sort of splitting into two just before the final “battle” in the game as the point at which he fully overcomes having Jenova cells in his body and completely retakes control despite the foreign presence, with the time he spent with Tifa in the Lifestream really only being the beginning of this sort of healing process. How do we explain Cloud and only Cloud hearing Sephiroth’s voice and sensing him after the Safer Sephiroth’s battle if the connection through his Jenova cells is already gone? And his seeming to become two entities for the final confrontation-is this not the pseudo-Cloud formerly controlled by Jenova?
I always thought about why Aeris didn't tell "Zack" Cloud about his obvious repressed or disregarded memories he has on his first Lifestream adventure. She knew a decent bit of the truth at that point and kept it to herself.
The best I could come up with was that it would have done more harm to him at that point than good. When Tifa fell into the Lifestream with Cloud the second time, Aeris saw that as the opportunity to have Tifa break it down to him. Coming from Tifa, it would do a lot less harm to him mentally. I was really hoping they would have had some kind of minor interaction in Crisis Core to flesh that out a little bit. Her initial reaction to Cloud and the Buster Sword in FF7 could have been a "Where do I remember this dude from and why does he have Zacks sword" kinda deal.
That "love triangle" has been one of my favorite parts of the story and I really wanted them to flesh it out more. At least we got Crisis Core to get Zack's side of things.
Maybe the next In-Depth could be about him. We all know whichever one you are working on next is fake and gay anyway.
Fake and gay anyway??! Is that an in joke or something??!
@@krismitchell5496 Looks like you don't catch a lot of his live streams.😅
It's an inside joke. RUclips comment sections are Cancer, in general. Troll comments can usually just be abreviated to some version of "This is fake and gay".
Agreed. I think Cloud hearing the truth at that point would wreck his brain.
Man, chat's always having the best discussions without me
I love theory vids, we should definitely do more! That said, I have two small questions about this one. 1. If Cloud's Jenova cells were ripped out of him, why does he still have the edge over the other squadmates? In all canon during the game and after the game, he's shown as the strongest member of AVALANCHE in feats of strength (barring maybe Vincent, who probably can't die). This is always assumed to be from Cloud having the soup of Hojo's Experiments/Mako/Jenova Cells that make him superhuman. Even the higher class SOLDIERs had Jenova cells inserted into them too, like Zack. Yes, Tifa in AC does similar feats for a short time, but since most of her moves against Loz were inspired by her limit breaks, I'm assuming she was doing limit after limit break, like her actual limit in-game, and adrenaline. Cloud has an edge generally, and I thought his Jenova Cells were a big part of that. However, I like how your and hotaru's theory works well in conjunction with Cloud getting Geostigma and how it wouldn't work if he had Jenova cells in him already, I like that angle. Food for thought.
2. What about the final battle of FF7? You said Sephiroth couldn't mess with Cloud's mind after Cloud was thrown into the Lifestream, but that final scripted battle mano y mano has always been ousting any remnants of Sephiroth from cloud's subconscious, AFAIK.
Thanks, keep the theory vids coming!
I think Cloud is just a bad mofo because he's Cloud. He's the main character and don't take no crap from nobody.
The final boss battle is pretty good evidence against this theory though. There's probaboy some theories you could construct as to why it works though, like maybe that mind trick was an extra power Sephiroth obtained once he became the all powerful being with the black materia. Or perhaps that was more of an inside battle within Cloud and that wasn't actually Sephiroth he was fighting?
@@4-8Productions true. Cloud sure is messed up in the head. It still works as a last ditch effort by Sephiroth to try and beat Cloud in a final fight, Jenova cells or no Jenova cells. Badass game is still badass. Thanks Death see ya
I love the idea of you doing final fantasy theories :)
What I'm about to say isn't really a theory but it's pretty funny and weird:
So me and my friend were playing through FF7 and on one of the first missions near the train station in Midgar there were these 2 NPCs. We walked up to them and they were speaking to each other something along the lines of:
"this is the first time we have agreed on something"
"Yes"
"Are you ready?"
"Let's do it"
And they walked past each other and fell over lmao. Who are these NPCs and what were they talking about?
I always assumed when he fell into the lifestream that's when he transported through time and ended up in tactics and all the other games. Upon his arrival back his brain became all scrambled and thus Tifa had to put him back together.
As much sense as that makes, it could be a case of Jenova cells being pushed out by the Mako but in doing so, caused him to go into such a state? I mean, in the movie they stated he had the cells still in him but Sephiroth still lost the connection due to the mako, maybe?
I believe this is pointed out in the movie.
Another thought is that his memories were being altered the first time by Zack, not on purpose though. It was states that materia is condensed memories of the people in the Lifestream so that may be why it took so long the first time and why his memory needed to be found and pieced together within the lifestream.
Just a thought.
I could be wrong.
I think there could be some ground to believe the Jenova cells are what's keeping Cloud the way he is.
They could be preserving Zack's memory which they could have been responsible for assimilating and giving to Cloud in the first place. And Cloud's Jenova cells could of been damaged by the live stream, causing Cloud to go into recovery.
The reason his memory is so messed being that mako poisoning corrupted his memory in the first place.
With the help of Aeris, Tifa, and potentially the remaining Jenova cells he could recover with help of Tifa's memory.
I got a crazy Theory... I always thought Vincent was Sephiroths father.. in the old instruction Booklet their Stats are similar.. near same height and stuff.. Also.. Hojo looks nothing like Sephiroth.. I think Vincent had a Affair with Sephiroth's mother.. Plus when you meet Sephiroth's mother behind the waterfall.. she calls out for Sephiroth and Vincent.. I do not think she calls for Hojo.. I could be wrong.. its been a while..
Dirge of Cerberus explains all about that
Oh I also support this theory. I think Hojo would have known and didn't care, after all he just wanted a test subject and not a child. And it would make everything so much more dramatic.
Before you make theory's get your facts straight plz!
@@eviltofu4364 I am behind you on that one
""Dirge of Cerberus explains all about that""
ruclips.net/video/VQt7tyCt8Ds/видео.html
It was explained kinda wierdly in Dirge. Vincents dad protects lucrecia from chaos in the cave one day and he dies since he's an ordinary human. Because of this, she pushes Vincent away out of guilt when he starts getting feelings. In her stupidity, she gets together with Hojo to make a baby so they can experiment on it. Vincent confronts Hojo, gets terminally injured, lucrecia turns him all immortal so he can survive a chaos implantation. so much wierdness in all that stuff. but yeah, they only had sephiroth to be an experiment, she volunteered to be injected with jenova cells while pregnant. and went insane =D
It could be that Mako poisoning is poisoning of the mind and not of the body. We see no physical symptoms in the game that I can recall, other than a catatonic state. If the Lifestream is the memories and emotions of those who have died, and Mako is manufactured Lifestream, then too much could cause an overload of information which causes you to lose your sense of self. When Tifa helps Cloud find himself, she essentially cures him. She sorta cured him when they first met by triggering his memoreis, but it ultimately wasnt enough as he was still confused. Just my thoughts.
okay yes i wrote the same but yours is way more concise. 😊
This was fantastic. I hope you do more of this. My love of FF7 stems mostly from the lore, the incredible story, the compelling characters (aside Cait Sith). This is the biggest reason for which I am subscribed to your channel. I look forward to more like these.
There is a theory that rufus shinra was secretly aiding cloud and his team along the way.
But rufus didnt want to be shown overtly helping cloud.
Why?
Well, because shinra had its hands full with weapons and meteor and mass chaos.
Let alone not being able to touch sephiroth.
So rufus decided that cloud and his team continue to succeed where shinra fails and neutralizing the northern crater is a mutual goal.
"What a fascinating story..." - Red XIII
Amazing theory. I've watched this three times and this is a compelling argument.
I never understood the Mako poisoning from the trip through the lifestream; It just didn't add up so I assumed it was brain damage from extended time without oxygen to the brain and that returning to it, without drowning again, could fix him, since it's concentrated-life-water and all.
Interesting. However, I personally think Cloud regains his psyche due to the Jenova cells still in his body, paired to his connection with Tifa, since part of Jenova's power is to merge with other beings.
In sort of the same sense that he gained Zach's memories when he died, he regained his own memories through Tifa's recollection of him.
I think the Jenova cells in cloud only relinquish themselves after his final battle with shirtless Sephiroth, since I believe Sephiroth and Jenova were sort of one in the same, and it is debatable who exactly is holding control of who at that point. That battle was symbolism of his body being able to finally fight Sephi/Jenova's control after they had defeated his and Jenova's main bodies.
As a side note - I think Sephiroth "going mad" after finding out what he did about his birth, and studying Jenova, wasn't so simple. I think in that moment, because his original idea about himself was crashing down around him, his mind was more susceptible to Jenova's control due to the cells in his body, and I think a lot of his psyche was lost and taken over by Jenova. At least that's my theory :)
@@ATDF1 I actually like that idea. Sephiroth may have just completely lost his shit similar to how Cloud did when Sephiroth showed him the true events of the Nibelheim Incident. Sephiroth's idea of who he was came crashing down around him, allowing for the Jenova cells (which he had a lot more of, compared to everybody else) within him to take control. And since, y'know, Jenova is an asshole alien creature that just wants to kill everything, combined with Sephiroth's weakened mental state, caused him to kill everyone and burn the town down. Then you factor in Hojo's Reunion theory, alongside the fact that Jenova's main body was stuck pretty close by at Mt. Nibel at the time. Jenova-controlled Sephiroth burns the town down then heads off to reunite with the rest of Jenova at the reactor.
@@doctorsmiles2209 Yep. I always thought that was the most reasonable explanation. Sephiroth and Cloud are just a duality of the same unfortunate fate.
It's solid, but I'm confused as to how Cloud would remain as strong and capable as a SOLDIER even without his Jenova Cells. If this could be explained or accounted for, I'm sold!
If I remember correctly normal SOLDIER only use mako energy. Sephiroth, Zach, and Cloud are the exception.
this is the one thing i thought of during the video too! the Jenova cells are what made cloud “powerful” enough to withstand everything he went through/fight sephiroth. if there’s an explanation of how he keeps his strength, then i’m sold
@@Cloudwtc Actually all members of SOLDIER have Mako and Jenova Cells.
LUNATIC_ GAMER719 thats what I thought too. Its weird that none of the other members of soldier were drawn to the reunion though.. any ideas as to why that is? I always thought the cells were what made cloud strong as well
He did not get mako poisoning because it wasn't mako. Mako is the condesned liquid form of lifestream. Lifestream alone is mild. Kids, drugs are okay if taken moderately and safely.
Man, I've never stopped to think about this topic, it makes a lot of sense! Very interesting theory, I think it makes even more sense than the mako poisoning!
PS: I miss watching your gameplays :'(
Work has been killing my free time
Keep up the good work, Death!! :D
Always love your stuff death. Thanks for putting this up!
The theory makes a lot of sense and I hope the Remake will shed light on whether this theory is just that a theory or legitimate.
So your saying this video is about to become very dated in the next few tears XD
I like this theory since it explains what Aerith had been doing while dead. However, Cloud doesn't just have Jenova cells, he has S-Cells (Sephiroth's Cells). He is technically a 'clone' of Sephiroth at the genetic level. Because he is a SUCCESSFUL clone, Sephiroth's cells are now a cellular part of Cloud and cannot be undone/extracted. This is why Cloud still retains his strength, power, and speed even after Tifa mentally restores him - Cloud is still a part of Sephiroth (which debunks the theory that Sephiroth extracted his cells). In fact, Cloud is the only one who can take on Sephiroth (on both a physical and metaphysical level) BECAUSE of their connection via their S-cells. Had Sephiroth been successful in extracting his cells out of Cloud, Cloud would've returned to his pre-Nibelheim-Incident level.
In Parasite Eve (which was the original premise for FF7), we see a similar predicament play out. Aya Brea obtains power from being genetically linked to her dead sister via an eye transplant. This process cannot be reversed, which is why Eve fails to absorb her. Aya can never be 'healed' of her tainted mitochondria since it's now a part of her at the genetic level, much like Cloud can never be healed of his S-cells since it's now a part of him.
Yes I agree what makes Cloud different is he has the s cells that's also why he isn't effected by the reioun.
I think what happens after the nibelheim accident. Is once sephorith is defeated Jenova takes over Sephorith. I think her plan was to use sephorith in his weekend state to free her. Once he falls into the lifestream she brings him to the northern crater to heal his body to use it as a vessel. This is why sephorith doesn't seem to recognize cloud at all when they 1st meet.
Cloud still has Sephoriths cells in him thats why he heard the warning from sephorith about the reactor at the beginning. It's also why Sephorith 1st appears at Shinra Headquarters. I think Sephorith was able to materialize a clone or reappear himself at clouds position. That's why all the blood seems to start at clouds cell.
Later in the game sephorith gains some of himself back which is why he seems to remember cloud
That's very interesting, hadnt thought about it like that. It does make sense, and it is in depth enough that it actually could be how things happened behind the scenes. I can tell this took plenty of time and thought to complete, well done
If you like crazy theories and conspiracies, FFVIII is a gold mine for you death.
I imagine that The Cells transforming into Jenova Synthesis was similar to the Construction of the Physical Mind Flayer
who/what was the mind flayer again? its drivin me nuts, was it a boss or enemy that caused confusion and/or drain mp?
Paul Newhouse I think it was another one of those creepy Hojo Experiments. It’s main attacks were its jaws, appendages, summoning minions that it had control of, and its rawr that caused debuffs. I theorize that it was a failed attempt to create a clone of J-E-N-O-V-A, or an experiment on an overdose of J-E-N-O-V-A cells, can’t put my finger on it. What do you think? It’s main weakness was Fire.
This makes a lot of sense and changes the way I understand and view the events of the game after the lifestream.
Hmmmm interesting case. But I think SquareEnix should be the one to answer all those questions. After all, FF7 it’s their golden baby, and fans would love to hear about it
So much to think about. I really want to play through FFVII again to re-read the dialogue.
I think the theory holds up pretty well. I wouldn’t want to critique it because it’s been a few years since I played.
My favourite theory (One that seems to be pretty much considered wrong) is that Jenova is the real antagonist of the game. Sephiroth died in the Mt. Nibel reactor and all that remains is his torso in the North Crater (containing the Jenova cells).
It says in game how Jenova can change it’s appearance and I think Sephiroth is how it chooses to appear to Cloud (and the rest of the party by association) because it has the desired effect on him.
I really should replay and pore over the dialogue some more.
your channel has made ffvii worth replaying
Not gonna lie this would be a sick scene showing Zack and Aeris returning cloud back with tifa
Love how much you commit into the game, keep up the good work ! *victory dance* (sword swing)
I would love to see you doing more of this type of videos. These are such fun discussions :-)
Wow... the idea that cloud survived the life stream because of aeris...brings a tear to my eye...
I really like this theory, and everything seems on point, but what about at the end of the original game where Sephiroth forcefully rips Cloud’s mind or spirit or whatever to have the final confrontation that you can’t lose? Wouldn’t that imply he still had Jenova cells in him?
This isnt a theory(maybe a little), but what the hell happened at the nibel reactor when cloud throws sephiroth into the lifestream while being impaled on sephiroth's sword? Like cloud is a lowly shinra grunt who failed to get into SOLDIER, while zack who is 1st class gets wiped out totally by seph. There seems like a lot of cut content in ff7 like certain bosses etc so maybe they also cut a lot of story. I wonder if cloud had some back story that got cut. Maybe he had some particular ancient heritage or something and due to budget constraints (ff7 one of the most expensive games at the time) they cut this. The reason why i say this is because throughout the game Cloud barely talks about his whole village getting murdered, he has no flashbacks of his family. Ok he might be an only child with a single mother but we barely get to see how her dying affected him. He bare even mentions her if at all when he confronts sephiroth, nor do we see much interaction with her. I find this particularly odd as at the time Sakaguchi's mother passed, and it led to him wanting to put a sense of loss by killing off Aerith in the game. So what i want to know is why wasnt there more screen time with cloud's mum? I mean both Cloud & Sakaguchi lost their mother, but Cloud seems relatively unaffected throughout the game about hee. This is why i think that she was cut because her role was involved in defining exactly who or what cloud was and why he was able to throw around a god of man sephiroth. Maybe he had some ancient blood or something and some scenes with Cloud's mother alluded to that but they decided that it would take way too long to explain that part and they decided to cut most of her from the game. Look we dont even know his Mum's name......
Cloud beating Seph doesn't have a logical explanation. It's part that Seph was fatigued/weakened from the Zack fight, part surprise, part sudden superhuman strength under duress (which is documented but rare), and part Seph was willing to go to the Lifestream anyway.
As to how he lived after that, he has Hojo to thank. He and Zack were found, rehabilitated, and also biologically experimented upon.
@@retrogamerdad9621 i dont think that is a concrete explanation. It seems very strange that cloud can beat a weakened sephiroth when he himself is wounded grieviously
I liked your theory, I think a few small details might be different but all in all a solid theory. One theory I've heard and have totally signed on to is Jenova is a Chaos Weapon from another world. The Chaos Weapon always causes the end of their world and summons Omega Weapon that turn into the life stream and jettison off the planet joining the greater Lifestream, but what happens to the Chaos Weapon? I think it just drifts in space indefinitely. I believe Jenova was one of those that ended up falling on Gaia.
Oh man, this is what I love! Nothing like a new theory on a 20+ year old game to give us fans something to ponder over. So thank you Death & Hotaru for this exercise! Having never considered such a theory before, I'm intrigued if there's more to it that's been omitted for the sake of making a concise video. Now with the reunion theory fused into this one, if Sephiroth could just pull out the Cloud Jenova cells without actually needing Cloud's body, why wouldn't he do the same for the hooded figures? Like why not snatch Cloud completely? Also, wouldn't he seek the Jenova cells Hojo infused himself with in the final Midgar battle? Maybe that's stretching things out and detracting from this particular theory. Perhaps Sephiroth only needed a minimum amount of cells to create Jenova Synthesis. I guess I always looked at it as though Cloud's behavior with Zack before Midgar and then his behavior after showing up at Mideel seemed similar: he was like a lost puppy looking for any kind of direction, whether that was using false memories or finding his true self. But then again, the fact that Cloud can't be manipulated by Sephiroth/Jenova after the Lifestream event is a very good point. Maybe his influence only works on those with weak minds or spirit, like the hooded figures, and when Cloud emerges from the Lifestream he's far stronger of being than he was in the beginning. In conclusion, Thanksgiving.
nahh, it was more like Cloud's body partly adapted to the Jenova cell while some residue or rejected by his body still remain flowing in his body, giving side effects like messing up his memories and what influence Cloud under Sephiroth's control, this is proven with Cloud's super SOLDIER capabilities which he never had before the experiment, at the same time his state of mind is susceptible to the effects of Mako infusion/Jenova Cell.
some instances when Cloud's mind was influenced or affected by Mako infusion/Jenova Cell
1. When Zack died, Cloud got shocked and truamatized by this experienced he snapped out of his condition and with him taking on Zack's legacy, Cloud became willful to continue and then proceed to Midgar thus getting over his catatonic state.
2. When Cloud started realizing he was being controlled all along by Sephiroth into giving the Black materia and kill Aerith, Cloud began to be afraid and lose confidence as a result. This was made worse when Sephiroth was revealed everything Cloud believed and remembered about being in SOLDIER was all made up, which drove Cloud to confusion and lose it further when Sephiroth told him he has no memory because he is just a puppet, and Hojo told him he is just a Sphiroth clone. This made Cloud lost his will, which result to getting back to catatonic state or probably worse than when he was in Shinra basement.
What cured Cloud is no doubt the Lifestream, and with the help of Aerith and Tifa for piecing together Cloud's memories and what really helped Cloud , was the fact that he was indeed Cloud who has memories who also confronted Sephiroth during Nibel incident to help Tifa, and he's not a Spehiroth clone although never been part of SOLDIER. this help regain Cloud's will and once and for all, get over his catatonic state.
Pretty cool theory I think it makes enough sense. One thing i recently got interested in is who infalna mentioned in the snow village documents. The first person sent to infect the people of guia when jenova first landed. Infalna says (he acted like a friend at first infecting everyone at the north scar spreading the jenova virus to the planet before they realised he was a threat 2000 years ago. I think perhaps jenova had a champion like sephiroth if not sephiroth himself 2000 years ago to help take over the planet. He is only mentioned once in Dr gasts recordings as a he and as a separate person from jenova at least thats all i have heard of him. It makes me wonder if this was sephiroth and if so it hints at a much older relationship with jenova than his birth by lucrecias and hojo.
I always looked at it as he had mako poisoning the second time when he was found, but was able to recover much quicker since his body had already been saturated with mako in the past, leading him to have a natural resistance to it and thus recover quicker from it.
Fantastic theory, makes a lot of sense, I'm gonna go with this from now on.
as much as this theory makes sense, you're forgetting the fight with Hojo, where he injects jenova cells into himself. therefore sephiroth doesn't have access to ALL of her cells, since cloud and friends destroy Hojo at that point.
Yeah.. not having 100% complete jenova, sure.. I suppose that could be an issue but to me it just feels like... how would cells that aren’t part of a life form that it’s a parasite on move from a lab? I mean you’re not wrong, don’t get me wrong.. I just want to believe this so badly lol.
Interesting theory over all. I always assumed that when Tifa and Cloud fell into the Lifestream the planet itself (and maybe Aerith) helped Tifa heal Cloud because she could fill in the missing gaps for Cloud and the reason why Cloud's psyche was messed up was because his memories were mixed up from the beginning. Its a combo of Hojo's experiments to make the perfect "Sephiroth Clone" and the fact that Sephiroth was able to use Cloud as a puppet and then threw him away like trash when he was done. Yet somewhere in Cloud's mind the truth was always there. We also could say that Cloud experienced a good amount of trauma on top of witnessing Zack's demise.
The doctor doesn't actually know Cloud to know his background and so seeing his Mako infused eyes may have made him make a mistake in his diagnoses. It wasn't that Cloud was suffering from Mako poisoning. It was what it always was, Sephiroth and Jenova's influence due to her cell's. The Lifestream of course curing this.
Couple of queries:
1. Sephiroth makes him wig out and pulls Cloud's mind into the lifestream at the end of the game in the scripted encounter. Cloud wins of course, but Sephiroth presumably couldn't do that if he didn't have Jenova cells in him still?
2. Why would Sephiroth not simply kill Cloud to complete the reunion like Jenova did with the clones, if he didn't simply fall into the lifestream as a result of the cave collapsing? Surely it fits better that Cloud fell in at the reunion, and that suited Sephiroth just fine since he had no use for him at that point?
Bonus: Should Cloud have got a powerup from bathing in the mako on the way to Mideel (other than gameplay reasons)?
1) Was cloud pulled in or did he go to face Sephiroth?
2) I think Cloud intrigues Sephiroth, if nothing else.
Here's a pretty wild theory, Jenova is an evolved form of Lavos from Chrono Trigger.
Both of them are interstellar alien life forms that crash land on their respective planets millions of years in the past, and then use their power to manipulate people in the host world. What's more, at the end of Chrono Trigger, it indicates that Lavos was in the middle of evolving itself by taking genetic information from the population of the host planet and this allowed it to take on a more humanoid form.
All this being the case, Jenova could actually be a Lavos Spawn that is from this evolved strain.
Love it. Keep it up death and community.
As far as the theory, I had to watch this a few times to fully digest the info but it all makes sense to me. I think I can add some spice to the mix though.
Yes, Sephiroth does remove the Jenova cells from Cloud, leaving him for dead, and Aeris does keep him alive. BUT! She couldn't do anything about restoring the mind of the true Cloud because she simply didn't know who he was. And, neither did he. After all, she only met Zack-Cloud in Midgar and didn't know any of his past like Tifa did. So, the best she could do was restore his body and spit him out of the Lifestream, leaving his mind basically blank. Something like a Mako _cleansing_ would be the term that comes to my mind.
When they fall in the Lifestream for a second time, Tifa is verbally assaulted by.....something. My guess is that this is Aeris being mad at Tifa for hiding the truth and not helping Cloud sort out his memories in the first place. Tifa was going through her own trauma though. Her mom died and she got hurt falling off the cliff (in the same day I think) so her own memories are jumbled. She denies being the cause of Clouds problems but Aeris sends her into Clouds consciousness to make things right. They sort out their memories (and feelings) for each other and Aeris spits them out of the Lifestream.
Send me a DM if you want to try to connect some more dots. QbRt#3097
The novel "The Maiden Who Travels the Planet" is pretty clear as to what Aeris does with Cloud and Tifa in the lifestream, however I really like the idea of Aeris clearing Cloud's mind. It might explain his state being worse than the first time he got Mako Poisoning better than "the Jenova cells got ripped out and therefore he's braindead"
Interesting theory. I have a theory though which might just go in tandem with it. I call it
Sephiroth IS Jenova.
More specifically, the Sephiroth we see through most of the game is in fact the body, or parts of Jenova taking his form.
Before hand, let me apologize for the length and possible sloppyness of the writing here. It's late for me and I wanted to get as much of this theory of mine into writing while this video was fresh in my mine.
So the First time we see or have anything to do with Jenova or Sephiroth really is in the Shinra Tower when Cloud, Barret and Tifa stumble upon Jenova's headless body in Hojos Lab. Not long after this Sephiroth breaks into the building and steals Jenova, Killing President Rufas along the Way. Palmer himself states that it was in fact Sephiroth. Problem is, The timing of this is too coincidental for me. Sephiroth just happens to break in right after Cloud and crew first see Jenova? More likely I think is that Jenova reacted to Cloud, who was there when Sephiroth was thrown into the lifestream, and awakened somehow. Remember how Cloud reacted from seeing Jenova, maybe the same thing happened in reverse.
Every other time we see sephiroth after this is weird as well, such as when the group first encounters Jenova Birth on the way to Costa Del Sol. You see a Shinra guard die, then Sephiroth appears and flies around before disappearing and leaving Jenova behind to fight, then Jenova dies leaving a piece of tentacle behind which withers away. I think what really happened here is that Jenova manipulated the cells within the Shinra guard to appear as Sephiroth and then left a piece of herself behind after the crew defeats her. This same kind of explanation can be applied to when you fight Jenova Life and Death as well.
So then The Sephiroth that we see and interact with throughout the game is not Sephiroth at all, but rather Jenova or someone infected with Jenova cells being manipulated into appearing as Sephiroth so as to egg on Shinra and Cloud and get what she and her son, who is still trapped in the Mako crystal at the Northern Crater want, The Black Materia.
This makes even more sense if you think about what Jenova is and what it is capable of. In the town just before the Northern cave is the logs of Prof Gast and Aeris's mom, who explains to the professor that Jenova appeared before the Ancients as a friend. This can be interpreted as she literally took a friendly form and just like with the crew manipulated them into getting what she wants, all thousands of years before Sephiroth even exists.
Also I think your mistaken about Reunion. You mention that Sephiroth is pulling Jenova Cells together, but it was Hojo who first postulated that reunion is in fact something intrinsic to Jenovas being. That is to say that if torn apart her pieces would always come together, even on a cellular level. This means that Jenova would be able to control Cloud to a degree, particularly when he is closer to her head, which is in the northern crater. This is backed up when Hojo says of Cloud "Well, at least this proves my reunion theory." implying that Cloud was drawn here by Jenova so she could reclaim her cells, which is backed up by your theory I think as Cloud than has all the Jenova Cells pulled from him.
So then the only two time (Aside from flashbacks) that we ever truly see Sephiroth are at the Northern Crater and during the Final Boss Battle. That leaves only one question in my mind, Who is in Control. If we accept that all the freaky stuff that happens when Sephiroth appears, his uncanny timing and his influence over cloud are all explained by saying it was Jenova the Whole time; we then have to ask weather Jenova is Using Sephiroth, or if Sephiroth is commanding Jenova.
There is strong evidence perhaps that Sephiroth is being controlled, as we know he doesn't start going insane until first entering Jenovas chamber on Mount Nibel after all. Also, as we have established that the Sephiroth for most of the game is in fact Jenova that would also mean he never talks after falling in the lifestream. And he did fall into the lifestream with Jenovas head, meaning her brain and presumably the majority of her mental capacity after all. If it is the case that Sephiroth is just a puppet it would mean that Cloud almost never interacts with Sephiroth at all in the game as the rest of the time it is Jenova using his image.
Alternatively it could be that having access to Jenovas head allows Sephiroth to control Jenova, and through her act to bring the Black Materia to him. After all, the only way Sephiroth would know about Black Materia is through Jenova presumably. The best evidence for Sephiroth being in control, aside from making Jenova take his form, is that he is fought last. Jenova is in fact guarding Sephiroth as he absorbs the planets energy as opposed to the other way around.
Granted I rather favor a third option wherein the two have a mutual relationship. Perhaps Jenova genuinely sees Sephiroth as her child and acts accordingly. In this scenario Jenova sacrificing parts of herself in the form of the boss battles Jenova Birth, Life and Death makes sense, and so would her making cloud give the Materia to Sephiroth specifically.
So in summary, I propose that the "Sephiroth" we see throughout most of the game is not Sephiroth at all, but rather either Jenova herself or someone infected with her cells manipulated to appear as Sephiroth so as to best manipulate both Shinra and Cloud into doing her biding. Also, it is possible that either Jenova is and has always been controlling Sephiroth (which would actually make him kinda tragic), or he is controlling her and using Jenovas abilities to his advantage.
Either way, love your videos, Thank you for reading this whole long thing and Keep doing what you do!
The thing about mako poisoning is that we have keep acting it's either similar to radiation poisoning or some other illness. The thing with mako and the lifestream itself is that it's the accumulation of the dead's soul in a way, their thoughts and personalities. It's stated that being in the lifestream can make you loose a sense of self as you fade, it makes you forget who you are and only a few people can maintain a distinct sense of self while in it. Aerith as a Cetra has a inherit control and Sepheroth is just strong in mind and will. Cloud the first time had a large does of mako but insignificant when looking at the lifestream. As such his sense of self was partially eroded away. The second time he was practically destroyed conplwtely, having already lost off sense of self to begin with, being in the lifestream itself made himself catatonic. It's only because Aerith saved him that he had a mind at all, but Aerith herself admits that she doesn't have a grand amount of power when it comes to the lifestream. She at best probably could guide Cloud to shore and maybe protect his mind from complete destruction. Aerith could only really reclaim minds that she knows, people like Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, and Zack. She really doesn't know the true cloud and would have only broken him more if she tried. I think it was a combined effort with Tifa, Cloud, and Aerith acting as a guardian, that gave Cloud his sense of self back. There is no hint as well that Sepheroth wants to rebuild Jenova if I remember. He has a destiny and mother complex sure. But the reunion theory ingame only really says that Jenova cells instinctively seekout each other, but there is nothing really to sugest that Sepheroth was actively seeking them out. I mean we see in game he has a great disregard for literal pieces of Jenova, using them as distractions and enemies against the party. Even failed clones never make it to him, falling into caverns or dying in their way. Lastly Clouds superhuman abilities come from Jenova cells and he shows them off a lot in the ending cavern as well as Advent Children, in game he jumps over insane distances and in Advent Children he cleves several ton rubble in two. The others are insane in ability and skill yes but only soldiers are shown to have the strength and ability Cloud shows off, which implies it's their training and Mako shower that gives them the power.
I love this theory. It always bothered me that Sephiroth did not try to mess with Cloud's mind after we find him in Mideel. Like, at the end of the game the dude is right there and is successfully murdering your various forms. Why not try it, Sephy? All it would have taken was a throw away line of him trying to control Cloud but Cloud resisting because of his healed psyche allowing him to fight it off, but that didn't happen. And Sephiroth seems like the type of guy to give himself any advantage he can get to see his plan come to fruition.
But, if he knows he can't control Cloud because he was the one to rip those cells out of Cloud in the first place, then that suddenly makes complete sense. Of course he wouldn't try it, he already knows it won't work.
mako, like the shark, break my fucking jaw and ear holes
Two things bug me:
1) Aren't Jenova cells inside Cloud supposed to be defeated in the very last moment of the game after Safer Sephirot fight?
2) What about Lucrecia? She actually carries Jenova cells but never leaves the cave even in sequels
Adding to this comment, isnt hojo carrying jenova cells? Im gonna assume theres some ways to suppress or reject sphiroths ability to manipulate carriers of jenovah cells, although how lucrecia could be doing this despite not even knowing whether sephiroths alive or not leaves a lot more to be speculated...
Concerning Lucrecia I believe we only met her remnant spirit cause those caves where you find old materias and stuff are supposed to be highly mako concentrated so odd things can happen.
Still there is no strict rational explanation , in most jrpg you happen to meet character's relatives spirits or ghosts, in this case I like to think it's simply a combined manifestation of Lucrecia's past hermitage/presence and Vincent's desire to be forgiven.
The author's left it to be interpretated ans that's for the best 🤔
Could be explained away as she's the mother/host whatever ya wanna call her and him I the dad so it won't work the same on them. But hojo was driven insane or was already insane so didn't work on him, losts of outs for them to use
One question I have with this theory is: how can Cloud feel Sephiroth's presence after defeating his one-winged angel form? Everyone thought they had won after that battle, except him. I think he still had jenova cells inside of him at that point and that's why he had to fight Sephiroth in his mind, it was Sephiroth's last ditch effort to manifest himself through Cloud which failed because Cloud had regained his true sense of self. And I think that's why he suffered from geostigma later on. It seemed like most of the victims of geostigma were either born after the events of meteor (and thus with tainted lifestream at birth) or present in Midgar during the time when the lifestream rushed forth to push back meteor. But Cloud was in the airship flying above it all during that time, not in the lifestream surge.
The reason I do believe it was mako poisoning is because mako poisoning isn't a mere physical toxin that makes your body sick, it's an affliction of the mind. By being exposed to mako, you end up absorbing the memories, emotions, and knowledge of the beings who made up that mako energy. For someone like Cloud who admittedly had a weak mind at the time, the flood of memories and knowledge were too much for him to process and he ended up losing his sense of identity because he couldn't tell where he ended and the new memories began. His crisis of identity before falling into the lifestream made him more susceptible to mako poisoning (or mako disorientation would be a better term for it).
He had never actually recovered from the first round of mako poisoning. The Jenova cells inside of him had just convinced him that he was an amalgam of multiple people. But after Tifa sorted out his real memories from his fake ones, he regained a lot of mental fortitude and was able to resist the influence of the Jenova cells after that point since he was able to hold on to his true self identity.
So I think it makes sense then that if someone is able to get through to a person who has mako sickness and help guide them back to their true self, that is the point at which they could recover from it. Tifa, on the other hand, had a very strong will/self identity and because of that, falling into the lifestream didn't have any significant effect on her beyond her initial shock at being exposed to the sudden rush of other people's memories.
Keep up the videos man. Huge FF7 fan myself. After all the shit i've been through in my life. Makes me smile to see this game is still adored.
Glad I could bring you some positivity, keep strong! 👍
@@4-8Productions Thanks man! Be safe out there.
What about clouds strength? Wasn't a lot of it due to the Jenova cells for the soldier training or was there something in crisis core that cleared that up? (only just realised Jenova is spelt a bit like Jehovah thanks spellcheck!) Also assuming IF Sephiroth/Jenova had a choice of pulling the cells wouldn't they prefer to keep some control of Cloud?
Could it not be that It was worse the second time because he had already lost his psyche and became Zack/Cloud?
TTTTTANK but it wouldn’t have been worse, as someone pointed out the livestream isn’t as strong a concentration of Mako as Cloud got from Hojo, even though that was after years of experimenting and injectons full of who knows what. Cloud being literally broken because he loses track of who he is after so much time with JENOVA whispering in his head and getting himself mixed up with Zack actually makes a ton of sense. It’s been at least five years since Cloud has been alone in his own brain.
I may be wrong, but was it that every SOLDIER operative has been infused with high mako AND Jenova cells??
If i recall corectly, that's the case, and if it rly is true, that makes Cloud even weaker than the rest, cuz i see no SOLDIER ever went to Reunion, nor being shown.
Looks like to me, that all that jenova cells plot wasn't that clear from the start, seems like it was being developed with the game itself, cuz there are many things that were not clarified nor shown.
Let's hope that Remake straights some things up ;D
kuksio92 soldier got the shaft in ff7, 2 actually soliders and cloud were it. The remake is adding some. I had chill bumps playing CC as a young adult getting to watch the juno cannon fight, almost fap worthy
Yay, really well put bro
I absolutely love this game. had my younger brother play it for the first time earlier this year. He was skeptical at first but loved it at the ending. We talked about a lot of what-ifs which made this video remind me of his play through.
I think Cait Sith is a sentient mind trapped in a body controlled by Reeve,
I think that weird dance that he does if hes on your team when aerith dies is him taking control away from Reeve using the power of being-so-scared-you-shit-your-pants
That is Caith Sith's first time seeing a real death, because wasnt on the party when the avalanche crew died.
Man this plus Neptuune's theory are both wicked theories, lets do some more digging and deep thought!
that altered beast shirt tho
Man I hope the remake pronounces it like "make-oh" like how I thought it was pronounced my entire childhood
Exactly
Mae-ko
Or. You could just accept the fact that you've been pronouncing "Mako" and "Adamantoise" wrong your entire life.
Aduh-Man-TUSS
MAH-Ko.
Those are the REAL ways to say these words.
Anyone got a link to the video about that crater chest? I keep looking for it but I couldn't pin down what video had it in it.
ruclips.net/video/_hqNV7JlREU/видео.html
The thing is geostigma is caused because the body is rejecting the jenova cells, I always took it as a hint as to how the president survived as well. It would make sense that he took in Jenova cells looking for more power.
I always figured he just had a tolerance the second time, but I'm open to anything that expands some depth without over the top rediculesness. "Multivers giants that show up as ghosts."
Honestly when I played the game I already kinda thought that this was the case. I just didn't think that the whole mako poisoning thing was real, not after Cloud recovered anyway
You know what would be insanely cool? If Square Enix saw this and decided to add this script to the FF7 Remake story. It would blow everyone's mind! Cross your fingers.
Sound theory. My only comment is that after cloud got mako poisoning the first time, he couldn't talk when zack was asking him questions in the back of the truck. cloud is in a very similar state the second time he is allegedly poisoned again when tifa tries to talk to cloud in his catatonic state and he simply responds with gibberish. Either way I think it is safe to assume that the affliction cloud sustained the second time was substantially worse.
Okay, interesting theory. But one person was left out of the equation: Lucrecia. She has Jenova cells in her body too. If this theory is true, then Sephiroth would have needed her too, amd since she's "frozen inside a crystal" (according to Dirge of Cerberus), then he wouldn't be able to recreate Jenova, unless he tracked down Lucrecia and forcefully tried to get her out of that crystal. Which, to be fair, would be interesting, seeing as she's his actual mother, and she could possibly have some sort of redemption (and retcon the travesty that was Dirge). Went off on a tangent there, but the point is, in order for this theory to work, and for Sephiroth's plan to work, Lucrecia would be needed, and the plot would need to be changed to accommodate this. But I love your theory! The idea that Aerith is protecting him makes a lot of sense, and I honestly wish for them to implement all if this into the remake. Imagine Sephiroth coming face to face with his mother, only to try to kill her, call her a mere vessel, and rip the Jenova cells out of her body. And giving subtle acknowledgment that Aerith protected them in the lifestream. This could happen when they revisit the forgotten capital with Bugenhagen.
Anyway, just throwing some ideas around.
Tru Cloud! I can dig it.
One theory that peaks my interest after watching this. Is I feel Geo-stigma is in fact infecting" young children" or just born. Cloud in fact after his final omni slash battle with Sephiroth. Cloud is "Reborn" once more. I think this a really deep hidden point that the Final fantasy series has always shown. That through life and Death Comes life and Death. Whether it is Kefka from Ff6 blowing up the whole plant to Create the world Of Ff10... or Areith Dying so she can save the Life of Tifa and Cloud. Im still waiting for the day we have balance on RUclips and someone Creates "2/4 production Life Separates Us" Channel . Well thanks if you read this
What about the jenova cells that hojo injected himself with? Or did sephy have enough for jenova synthesis
I really like this answer/theory! It very logical and very neatly fits the narrative.
Catatonic Cloud sounds like an awesome jazz band name
Cloud was already suffering from some sort of identity crisis and I think with Sethroth tampering worsened it even more to a state to her cloud didn't know who he was. I always saw that final form of Sethroth in his full human form taking place in clouds head as Sethroth final attempt to control Cloud.
I was going through all of your RUclips videos about final fantasy 7 and I've not seen any tutorials about checkable breeding and I was wondering if you might have the time an ability to go ahead and make a chocobo breeding tutorial video
It's a very interesting hypothesis indeed! My only question is how does the jenova cells get put back into his body for advent children? They fight jenova synthesis which it could happen, but what about sephiroth in clouds mind? And in Advent children he still messes with clouds mind a bit. Also if he had jenova cells taken out from him he wouldnt have the same physical abilities. He's been infused with mako, yes, but only 1st class soldiers have been experimented on with jenova that were successful enhanced their abilities( Seph, Angeal, Genesis, Zak) and the exception of cloud, the others in the black capes were weak and could hardly speak.
I've considered a couple of theories.. Prof. Gast is the doctor in Midele. And Sephiroth went as far as Junon holding Jenova's head cause the trail of blood ends there and doesn't continue.. I still believe he died somewhere in Junon (Survived when Cloud threw him into the Mako, ya know being a 'super human' and all)
It's crazy how long it has been since this game came it and still there's so much to figure out. Awesome video and yeah, this theory does make a lot of sense and tie a couple of loose ends in this story. Specially the fact that Sephiroth can no longer control Cloud.
The reunion theory is actually confirmed during the game. Can’t remember if it’s the OG or remake….anyways it states that Jenova was mortally wounded and was in the long process of healing and putting herself back together again. That’s why all the people with Jenova cells were in the process of converging and meeting. Jenova and Sephiroth were actually in acting jenovas ability to heal herself
The biggest hole in this theory is the final 1v1 battle with Cloud and Sephiroth after he still "feels" Sephiroth's presence. This scene is Cloud asserting his will as dominant over Sephiroth's, effectively destroying his influence and dissipating his spirit energy (lifestream goo, whatever you like) once and for all. I'm not sure how this theory would cover that scene.
Otherwise, mako poisoning still makes the most sense. The doctor has seen tons of cases of mako poisoning, since the lifestream was on the surface nearby. He's never seen such a bad case because everyone else would've died; Cloud only survived because of the Jenova cells. He healed quickly after the flashback because of the Jenova cells.
The thread tying these two together and proving that he still has his Jenova cells the whole game is the Jenova motif and how it's expressed through Cloud - him grabbing his head and hearing a high-pitched noise. The scene in the lifestream sees Tifa almost literally putting Cloud back together via her memories with him, as shown when the parts of him from the three memories form into one Ultra Cloud (lol). However, there's also the key fourth piece that rejoins him, the Jenova cell motif; that's a part of himself that he now has to recognize. After the lifestream bit, we don't have Jenova motif Cloud through the rest of the game (if memory serves), until just before that very final 1v1 battle between Cloud and Sephiroth.
Oh boy, this has the makings of the next "Squall Is Dead" theory :)
Back with the FF7 awesomeness...
Happy days....
Do more theory stuff.... 😁
Only problem is in Advent Children Vincent explains to Cloud that Geostigma is the body trying to fight off alien matter... Jenova cells. Basically Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells, either through Hojo's tinkering (why all the black hooded people were sick) or through contact with the Jenova cell infected lifestream.
that's certainly an interesting idea but I think what matters most for a story like FF7 is that ultimately it's a figurative state he's in after he loses the personal narrative that holds him together and is paralyzed by the shame of his weakness and the lies he's told to hide it, and that it's only through accepting that part of himself, discarding the egotistical desire to elevate himself above others like Sephiroth, and forging for the first time a real relationship with Tifa that he can be redeemed.
The reason Sephiroth can no longer control him is because he has grown beyond his desire to be like Sephiroth, thanks in part to Tifa showing him that it's OK to be as vulnerable as he was afraid others would see, because despite that shame you might feel there are other there people who can support you and it's never too late to change.
but the Jenova inside of him being removed is really another, more concrete way of saying the same thing, if you think about it, so I guess this theory checks out?
Is that an altered beast T?
If cloud has the jenova cells taken out of him would he as physically able in advent children? I was under the impression that that was what made him able to fight like a first class soldier (i.e. having essentially the same procedure done on him, just not the training.)
A couple problems with the theory:
1. There are still SOLDIERs in the world (2nd class in Junon, 1st class in Midgar, possibly others that just didn't have story significance) and SOLDIERs all have jenova cells. There is even a guy in Junon who was an ex-soldier who starts dressing up in the sephiroth clone outfits out of compulsion after you get the highwind.
2. As far as I can tell Sephiroth has no real use for Jenova, so the reunion is just a natural phenomenon around Jenova that Sephiroth takes advantage of to get the black materia.
That doesn't rule out Cloud not getting mako poisoning the second time since it's also perfectly possible that his original mako poisoning never resolved in the first place... it was just bandaged over with a fake composite persona. Break the persona and Cloud regresses to the original state.
I like this theory, makes sense to me. It'll be awesome if Square uses it in their remake.
I think I'd be willing to accept this as cannon. I think it fits well with the Jenova reunion that was taking place. I think I'd be curious what Aerith's take is with Cloud's psyche coming back together. She might be happy to see how the resemblance to Zack comes about.
The lifestream is not mako itself. The extraction process condenses and changes the compound is changed.
Remember tifa fell also. Zack is also part of cloud in the beginning. Remember they are both part jenova, there for a collective mind and Zack was collectively a joined mind.
I like this theory, and I believe it could be a case of both. Cloud recovering quicker this time could just be from him recovering from the poisoning before and since it is Clouds mind they are in might show why Tifa had an easier time being protected by Aeris. Now the whole thing from AC: Vincent points out that geostigma is the Sephiroth gene or Jenovas memetic legacy. This would also explain to me why Kadaj and the gang calls him brother. To me, that's the part of Cloud and Zachs genetic manipulation by Hojo. I'm pretty sure he inserted not only Jenova cells in them but Sephiroths as well. Attempting to make actual Sephiroth clones. That explains to me why they never got a number like the rest who only got Jenova cells put inside them. But who knows...I really love the theory man, let's keep it going :)
But the final battle against Sephiroth happened because he still has Jenova cells, also in Advent Children Cloud has geostigma because he still have Jenova cells in him right ? That's what I understood, I don't think he ever had been cleaned from it, apart if it's written officially somewhere in the novels.
Just thinking... What about Lucretia? You find her after the reunion and she has Jenova cells. Do we assume that she was absorbed into Jenova? What happened to her after Vincent tells her Sephiroth is dead?
If he had the Jenova cells taken out of him... then what about his Mako Eyes, and also enhanced strength and all that stuff due to side-effects of being a test subject? Wouldn't those be removed as well?
That would support theories of the Doctor in Mideel, previously being a Medic for the Shinra Co. Either working with Soldier or troops deployed by the Company. Either way I sort of Agree with that statement, It be quite a stretch considering Aerith/Aeris didn't have a whole lot of Knowledge about her Ancient bloodline aside from what she was told during and between the events leading up to her death, Its quite possible she knew how too considering. She sort of helps even after she died, and talks to cloud before he goes Catatonic .
I was down for this until we considered Jenova cells being removed from cloud for a few reasons. Sephiroth while not able to control clouds mind the same way he did before the events of the north crater does still mess with his mind at the end of the game. The reason he doesnt have the same control is because clouds restored psyche allows him to resist sephiroth to grater effect but once they defeat safer sephiroth the only thing left sephiroth has to cling to are the jenova cells within cloud, he also alludes to this in AC. we can also consider that after the reunion all the sephiroth clones that no longer had jenova cells died from them being removed likely because those cells had become bound to the host bodies meaning so it could be assumed if cloud no longer had the jenova cells he would have been killed or had different affect in the encounter
This is a really good theory. I hope to see more.