I played original Tainted Grail (and all expansions) with my group (4 people). And we actually loved it, even with all that grind you mentioned (btw I don't thnik there was so much grind, and 2 out of 4 campaigns didn't really have problem with relighting mehnirs). All new features are good incremental improvement though, so I've already backed new one.
I’ve always wanted to play the original, but could never find it at a reasonable price. Once I heard about KoR, I decided to wait for the campaign to back. Happy to hear it sounds like a 2.0 version of the original. Very excited for this one. Thanks for the video!
It’s been extremely refreshing to see AR take a very honest approach to “is this game for you?” Sending a review copy to creators who disliked the original is a ballsy move. I also saw they had an FAQ on their campaign page that was like “if I disliked the original will I like this?” Their answer was something like “we’ve made a lot of changes based on feedback. If you disliked certain elements of the old game, you might like this. If you hated everything about the old game, this won’t be for you.” Crazy to see that in today’s crowdfunding climate.
Great overview, thank you! I love the fiest one despite the gripes you have with it, which I share, but I felt they added to the feeling of a world in decline which is already a punishing and hard world. I think you could easily adapt a lot of the changes from the Waystone System to the Menhir System as House Rules and have more fun with the first one.
Great video, Love the comparison on what changed and its refreshing to see constructive criticism from someone who didn't enjoy the first one and how you note its like not your top campaign game you would pick but it has a lot to offer :)
Thanks for the video, glad you got a copy as I really appreciated your last video on the original. Also, congrats on having your video first in the list of video reviews on the Gamefound campaign page! Awaken Realms obviously appreciated your honest assessment, hope people se it and come to your channel.
AR say they're releasing a 2.0 version of Fall of Avalon (the original Tainted Grail) along with KoR. I hope that some or all of these changes will find their way into that 2.0 version.
No, still menhirs. This is some of the info from update 4 of the campaign detailing the changes l: A clearer selection of difficulties during the campaign setup. Standard game mode is slightly less focused on survival and resource grind (for example, we modified the default Food, Rest and Exhaustion rules and introduced a new Secret card that facilitates re-lighting Menhirs). The Story mode is even more forgiving. There's now a fast travel option in the Fall of Avalon campaign that unlocks as you progress through the game (similar to the existing options in Age of Legends and Last Knight campaigns).
I think you just saved me hundreds and hundreds of dollars! I never playd TG but loved the esthethic and wanted the sundropped miniatures so was going to go all in on the new campaign but hearing you explain how this game actually plays off the table in your hand really turned me off of this encounter system. I actually backed Primal The Awakening as it seemed more of a cooperative game where you can discuss and play cards cooperatively. I might choose to back instead Oathsworwn when they reprint it or Destinies. Thanks so much for these insights!
It’s still an interesting and fun combat system but it’s very different than Gloomhaven or Oathsworn in my opinion. So it really comes down to personal preference. Glad I could help out though!
Many complain about the grinding. But geez, do people have no own fantasy to use? What is more easy. To sell a game or to just use a simple house rule? 🙄
I recently played the original with a friend, and I enjoyed it a lot despite its issues. I don't dislike Menhirs fading, but I do agree that the costs to keep them up were way too high so i felt like so much of our time was spent grinding for resources. We actively failed two campaigns cause we activated a Menhir when we didn't really have enough resources after/a plan to recover our food. I'm looking forward to this game, I know my friend will grab it.
Yeah there are a few different ways they could have been altered or adjusted in the original to make them feel like punishing to those wanting to explore and experience the world. It also just comes down to preference too. I'm naturally someone who dislikes feeling punished for exploring. It's the same issue I had with The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, the timer would always give me anxiety because in those types of games, I like to take my time and explore slowly.
If BGG ratings are anything to go by, Oathsworn is rated 9.3 (although I thought it was 9.6 a week or two ago), while the original Tainted Grail is rated 8.2. That said, I expect the price of Oathsworn (the reprint) to be significantly higher than Tainted Grail (something like $250 for the core pledge with minis and $150 for the standee version vs $99 for TG). Personally, I'll probably be backing Oathsworn and am on the fence with TG (I already own the original and only considered it a good but not great game).
I actually would consider them in the same genre. Both involve storytelling, an evolving narrative, a campaign, boss fights and combat and gathering with a group of friends multiple times to over the course of months to finish.
Hey Tony, I'll need more time with Oathsworn and to experience more of Kings of Ruin to give you an answer! If you want me to go solely off first impressions, right now I'm more impressed with Oathsworn, but I'm really basing this off of one session with it and only 2 chapters of Kings of Ruin. Thanks for the comment! :)
@@AllYouCanBoard I understand. I appreciate your honesty and wanting to more experience before giving a Final Answer. I really enjoy games with a good story. That helps keep the experience fresh for me and makes it more than just game mechanics. Given that, I'm always interested in games with a good story AND good game play. For me Oathsworn may be the Best of Class, so to speak. Therefore, Oathsworn serves as a good measuring stick for me. If another game is close it becomes something I would probably enjoy. I hope that 'logic' made sense.
I just played through the print and play that was released as part of the Gamefound campaign, and really really enjoyed it. For me, very comparable to a sleeping gods with a bit more of an interesting combat/diplomacy system.
Great video as always! Having never played the first one, would you say the miniature add-ons is worth it? I really appreciate the miniatures in Return to DarkTower for example, but they are on the board for the entire game. In this game, seems like they would appear and leave rather quickly.
I think you can only answer that question for yourself, it really depends on how much you value miniatures to get engrossed in the experience. I'm playing Oathsworn right now with standees and no miniatures and am having a great time and it doesn't feel like I'm playing a watered down version of the game. And I saved a lot of money. But for some, it's a great addition and if you paint miniatures and enjoy that process, it's almost a no brainer.
Loved the first one. Can't wait for the second. Great video though and I'm interested to see how the new one plays. I quite enjoyed the grindy element for the majority of the 3 campaigns I played. For me personally it kept me on edge, made the wyrdness in its own right feel like a genuine threat and made the game feel like a survival adventure with restricted options in a given play through which to me.... that's what it was advertised to be and I'm now on my third fall of avalon campaign (having not played red death of the age of legends) Can completely understand why people didn't like it for that reason too though. Hopefully the new one can grow the tainted grail community. Will keep an eye out for your vids in the future and I liked your take on both games
What do you think about the upgade 2.0 pack/updated journals? Do you think they made enough changes to make you want to try the original out again? It's about $35 USD to upgrade the game from 1.0 to 2.0. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth doing or not.
I can't comment because I haven't tried them, but me personally, I wouldn't be anxious or excited to return to the original at this point. Especially with an improved version coming out in Kings of Ruin. But that's me!
did they made an like v2.0 of the original tainted grail? i mean did the backport the mechanics, that grinding isn't that "boring" in the first one? so it might be possible to have an update box, where some things changed its still playable but might be more favorable for people that didn't liked the mechanics in fall of avalon
Thanks for the video. I did back the original campaign and will likely back this one/update as well. I'm on the fence on the extra minis boxes, however. Extra things to collect/money to spend on that sort of thing distracts me. That said, I am interested in the revisions, etc. And I might get the playmat this time but again, that's cosmetic. 🤔
Yeah the minis are going to come down to personal preference and what miniatures add to your experience and enjoyment. It's hard to really make a recommendation in that area, but overall, this is an improved experience compared to original Tainted Grail, there's no question.
@@AllYouCanBoard Good to hear. I will def back this campaign. Starting a new job in November so that gives me time to save up as well before the PM opens.
As someone anxiously awaiting my copy of ISS Vanguard I must admit I have much trepidation and probably won’t back TG2. Awaken Realms have the unique talent of producing outstanding games that invariably shoot themselves in the foot. Menhirs, Slumbers, rule books; I could go on. Yet, from your video I take a certain amount of comfort. I don’t doubt that AR is a talented group and perhaps have learned from previous missteps. With regard to TG2, the writing, as you say, has improved. The story appears deeper and more nuanced. It’s all so very interesting but is it interesting enough to take a flier and back it in an economic downturn or simply wait for whatever happens in retail?
After playing Kings of Ruin, is there anything you can think of changing in the original Tainted Grail to make it align more with it? We've tried to play the original story FoA twice as 2 players and the double-backing, resource grind, etc makes it very hard to continue playing. Other than outright cheating, I'm tired of retrying over and over to 'figure out' how to play effectively but we do enjoy combat, diplomacy and the overall story so I'd like to try some house rules to finish the campaigns.
Suggestion: Play it with rules as written, but look through the upgrades. There are a number that *significantly* lower how hard lighting menhirs is, if you have two of those, you typically won't really have to worry about it much anymore. Or just play with the "easier" rule where you pay as written, but as if you had a player less. That's an official "easier" mode"
Don't play as written. Make exploring cost zero. Also if playing two players if both players are at a shrine the resource to light a menhir only cost as if it were one player
I think if you're looking for things to house rule to make it enjoyable, you might just need to try some trial and error and see what makes you happy. What brings you joy. Having exploration cost 0 or having menhirs never go out could work, but it's hard to say what impact these things will have on the balance of the game if you still want it to be a challenge or competitive. That being said, there are lots of discussions about this on the BGG forums and such and you might have some luck there finding things that have worked for others! If it makes you happy, that's what counts!
The story mode variant at the end of the rule book completely fixes the grind for us. That is, treating any action that depends on number of players as if one less person was playing. So we are 2 players, but following all directions and resource requirements as if we were just 1 player. It means menhirs cost less to light and stay lit slightly longer relative to what we're doing.
I think this game shouldn't be compared to Gloomhaven. They are in the different genre. It should be compared to Sleeping God instead. Both are narrative based.
I think that while Tainted Grail has a stronger focus on narrative, they are absolutely still in the same genre. They just place their focus on different areas, but they are both campaign and legacy games with combat and narrative that you'll play over the course of months with the same group of friends. I think the same type of game groups would consider purchasing and playing all 3 of the games you mentioned.
Gloomhaven's story is complete trash and does not improve throughout the campaign, it gets worse. Talk about a grind of a RPG that is completely overrated. The only thing Gloomhaven has going for it is the mechanics and they are not that great tbh. The Tainted Grail series kills it when it comes to story and that's why people play it. Personally, I'm tired of playing these "RPGs" with zero to no story. I enjoyed your video, thank you for the insight!
I agree that Gloomhaven has almost no story, but that is by design. It is like comparing a Final Fantasy game to Final Fantasy Tactics. Tactics had almost no story, but the game was about tactical combat, and it did that really well. Same with Advance Wars. Gloomhaven would be a much worse game if there was exploration and narrative emphasis. It has just enough to get you to the next tactical scenario, perhaps a bit too much. Jaws of the Lion sort of blew GH out of the water for me because you do almost nothing between missions. You can flip the page and try a new scenario. I totally understand if you don't like Gloomhaven because you prefer a game with a narrative focus. But it does what it does really well, and when it came out, there was nothing like it out there. I agree that a game that sucks you into the story, making the hours pass like nothing as you play, is the best. It takes real talent to write compelling narrative like that. But if Gloomhaven had that sort of narrative, no one would play it. People who want the tactics would be screaming about the story getting in the way, and people who want the story would be turned off by the combat taking too long.
@@fy8798 So I looked into your claim, and it turns out other people cared about the story more than I did. My mistake. When I played it 25 years ago, I just thought of the story as going on in the background. I should play it again. Still, Final Fantasy VI has the best story IMO. I still think that Gloomhaven would have been less popular if it required more exploration and narrative to get through. It might even be a better game, but less people would play it.
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/1.gif)
Did you enjoy the original Tainted Grail? Are you planning to back this standalone sequel?
I played original Tainted Grail (and all expansions) with my group (4 people). And we actually loved it, even with all that grind you mentioned (btw I don't thnik there was so much grind, and 2 out of 4 campaigns didn't really have problem with relighting mehnirs). All new features are good incremental improvement though, so I've already backed new one.
I’ve always wanted to play the original, but could never find it at a reasonable price. Once I heard about KoR, I decided to wait for the campaign to back. Happy to hear it sounds like a 2.0 version of the original. Very excited for this one. Thanks for the video!
I play extremely loosely (liberal story mode) and I enjoy Tainted Grail a lot. Game time prevents me from playing more often but I want to 😅
It’s been extremely refreshing to see AR take a very honest approach to “is this game for you?”
Sending a review copy to creators who disliked the original is a ballsy move. I also saw they had an FAQ on their campaign page that was like “if I disliked the original will I like this?” Their answer was something like “we’ve made a lot of changes based on feedback. If you disliked certain elements of the old game, you might like this. If you hated everything about the old game, this won’t be for you.”
Crazy to see that in today’s crowdfunding climate.
Great overview, thank you! I love the fiest one despite the gripes you have with it, which I share, but I felt they added to the feeling of a world in decline which is already a punishing and hard world. I think you could easily adapt a lot of the changes from the Waystone System to the Menhir System as House Rules and have more fun with the first one.
Great video,
Love the comparison on what changed and its refreshing to see constructive criticism from someone who didn't enjoy the first one and how you note its like not your top campaign game you would pick but it has a lot to offer :)
Thank you! Glad you found it useful.
Thanks for the video, glad you got a copy as I really appreciated your last video on the original. Also, congrats on having your video first in the list of video reviews on the Gamefound campaign page! Awaken Realms obviously appreciated your honest assessment, hope people se it and come to your channel.
Thanks for the kind words, glad you liked the video!
AR say they're releasing a 2.0 version of Fall of Avalon (the original Tainted Grail) along with KoR. I hope that some or all of these changes will find their way into that 2.0 version.
Did they put waystones into the 2.0 version of avalon also do you know?
No, still menhirs. This is some of the info from update 4 of the campaign detailing the changes l:
A clearer selection of difficulties during the campaign setup.
Standard game mode is slightly less focused on survival and resource grind (for example, we modified the default Food, Rest and Exhaustion rules and introduced a new Secret card that facilitates re-lighting Menhirs).
The Story mode is even more forgiving.
There's now a fast travel option in the Fall of Avalon campaign that unlocks as you progress through the game (similar to the existing options in Age of Legends and Last Knight campaigns).
I think you just saved me hundreds and hundreds of dollars! I never playd TG but loved the esthethic and wanted the sundropped miniatures so was going to go all in on the new campaign but hearing you explain how this game actually plays off the table in your hand really turned me off of this encounter system. I actually backed Primal The Awakening as it seemed more of a cooperative game where you can discuss and play cards cooperatively. I might choose to back instead Oathsworwn when they reprint it or Destinies. Thanks so much for these insights!
It’s still an interesting and fun combat system but it’s very different than Gloomhaven or Oathsworn in my opinion. So it really comes down to personal preference. Glad I could help out though!
Many complain about the grinding. But geez, do people have no own fantasy to use? What is more easy. To sell a game or to just use a simple house rule? 🙄
I recently played the original with a friend, and I enjoyed it a lot despite its issues. I don't dislike Menhirs fading, but I do agree that the costs to keep them up were way too high so i felt like so much of our time was spent grinding for resources. We actively failed two campaigns cause we activated a Menhir when we didn't really have enough resources after/a plan to recover our food. I'm looking forward to this game, I know my friend will grab it.
Yeah there are a few different ways they could have been altered or adjusted in the original to make them feel like punishing to those wanting to explore and experience the world. It also just comes down to preference too. I'm naturally someone who dislikes feeling punished for exploring. It's the same issue I had with The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, the timer would always give me anxiety because in those types of games, I like to take my time and explore slowly.
Nice video with proper perspective that all we were expecting.
Not to sound patronising, i hope, but always intelligent and eloquent and useful reviews. Excellent.
Thank you.
Thanks Jonathan, glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for sharing. Which do you like more. This game or Oathsworn?
These two games aren't even in the same genre lol
If BGG ratings are anything to go by, Oathsworn is rated 9.3 (although I thought it was 9.6 a week or two ago), while the original Tainted Grail is rated 8.2. That said, I expect the price of Oathsworn (the reprint) to be significantly higher than Tainted Grail (something like $250 for the core pledge with minis and $150 for the standee version vs $99 for TG). Personally, I'll probably be backing Oathsworn and am on the fence with TG (I already own the original and only considered it a good but not great game).
I actually would consider them in the same genre. Both involve storytelling, an evolving narrative, a campaign, boss fights and combat and gathering with a group of friends multiple times to over the course of months to finish.
Hey Tony, I'll need more time with Oathsworn and to experience more of Kings of Ruin to give you an answer! If you want me to go solely off first impressions, right now I'm more impressed with Oathsworn, but I'm really basing this off of one session with it and only 2 chapters of Kings of Ruin. Thanks for the comment! :)
@@AllYouCanBoard I understand. I appreciate your honesty and wanting to more experience before giving a Final Answer. I really enjoy games with a good story. That helps keep the experience fresh for me and makes it more than just game mechanics. Given that, I'm always interested in games with a good story AND good game play. For me Oathsworn may be the Best of Class, so to speak. Therefore, Oathsworn serves as a good measuring stick for me. If another game is close it becomes something I would probably enjoy. I hope that 'logic' made sense.
I just played through the print and play that was released as part of the Gamefound campaign, and really really enjoyed it. For me, very comparable to a sleeping gods with a bit more of an interesting combat/diplomacy system.
Great video as always! Having never played the first one, would you say the miniature add-ons is worth it? I really appreciate the miniatures in Return to DarkTower for example, but they are on the board for the entire game. In this game, seems like they would appear and leave rather quickly.
I think you can only answer that question for yourself, it really depends on how much you value miniatures to get engrossed in the experience. I'm playing Oathsworn right now with standees and no miniatures and am having a great time and it doesn't feel like I'm playing a watered down version of the game. And I saved a lot of money. But for some, it's a great addition and if you paint miniatures and enjoy that process, it's almost a no brainer.
The Minis are great to look at but the actual time they are on the board is so low that I would not recommend them getting for the gameplay
I backed Tainted Grail 2.0 and Kings of Ruin. I'm hoping 2.0 addresses many concerns you had about the first game. Maybe you should give it a try!
Loved the first one. Can't wait for the second. Great video though and I'm interested to see how the new one plays. I quite enjoyed the grindy element for the majority of the 3 campaigns I played. For me personally it kept me on edge, made the wyrdness in its own right feel like a genuine threat and made the game feel like a survival adventure with restricted options in a given play through which to me.... that's what it was advertised to be and I'm now on my third fall of avalon campaign (having not played red death of the age of legends)
Can completely understand why people didn't like it for that reason too though. Hopefully the new one can grow the tainted grail community.
Will keep an eye out for your vids in the future and I liked your take on both games
What do you think about the upgade 2.0 pack/updated journals? Do you think they made enough changes to make you want to try the original out again? It's about $35 USD to upgrade the game from 1.0 to 2.0. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth doing or not.
I can't comment because I haven't tried them, but me personally, I wouldn't be anxious or excited to return to the original at this point. Especially with an improved version coming out in Kings of Ruin. But that's me!
did they made an like v2.0 of the original tainted grail? i mean did the backport the mechanics, that grinding isn't that "boring" in the first one? so it might be possible to have an update box, where some things changed its still playable but might be more favorable for people that didn't liked the mechanics in fall of avalon
Great well thought out vid! Thank you!
Thanks for the video. I did back the original campaign and will likely back this one/update as well. I'm on the fence on the extra minis boxes, however. Extra things to collect/money to spend on that sort of thing distracts me. That said, I am interested in the revisions, etc. And I might get the playmat this time but again, that's cosmetic. 🤔
Yeah the minis are going to come down to personal preference and what miniatures add to your experience and enjoyment. It's hard to really make a recommendation in that area, but overall, this is an improved experience compared to original Tainted Grail, there's no question.
@@AllYouCanBoard Good to hear. I will def back this campaign. Starting a new job in November so that gives me time to save up as well before the PM opens.
Love this content, the way you explained things were very clear! Thanks a lot, subscribed your channel.
Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed it!
As someone anxiously awaiting my copy of ISS Vanguard I must admit I have much trepidation and probably won’t back TG2.
Awaken Realms have the unique talent of producing outstanding games that invariably shoot themselves in the foot. Menhirs, Slumbers, rule books; I could go on. Yet, from your video I take a certain amount of comfort. I don’t doubt that AR is a talented group and perhaps have learned from previous missteps. With regard to TG2, the writing, as you say, has improved. The story appears deeper and more nuanced. It’s all so very interesting but is it interesting enough to take a flier and back it in an economic downturn or simply wait for whatever happens in retail?
Yeah it's definitely a commitment, both in time and price. There's nothing wrong with waiting for retail and further thoughts and reviews!
After playing Kings of Ruin, is there anything you can think of changing in the original Tainted Grail to make it align more with it? We've tried to play the original story FoA twice as 2 players and the double-backing, resource grind, etc makes it very hard to continue playing. Other than outright cheating, I'm tired of retrying over and over to 'figure out' how to play effectively but we do enjoy combat, diplomacy and the overall story so I'd like to try some house rules to finish the campaigns.
Suggestion: Play it with rules as written, but look through the upgrades. There are a number that *significantly* lower how hard lighting menhirs is, if you have two of those, you typically won't really have to worry about it much anymore.
Or just play with the "easier" rule where you pay as written, but as if you had a player less. That's an official "easier" mode"
Don't play as written. Make exploring cost zero. Also if playing two players if both players are at a shrine the resource to light a menhir only cost as if it were one player
I think if you're looking for things to house rule to make it enjoyable, you might just need to try some trial and error and see what makes you happy. What brings you joy. Having exploration cost 0 or having menhirs never go out could work, but it's hard to say what impact these things will have on the balance of the game if you still want it to be a challenge or competitive.
That being said, there are lots of discussions about this on the BGG forums and such and you might have some luck there finding things that have worked for others! If it makes you happy, that's what counts!
The story mode variant at the end of the rule book completely fixes the grind for us. That is, treating any action that depends on number of players as if one less person was playing. So we are 2 players, but following all directions and resource requirements as if we were just 1 player. It means menhirs cost less to light and stay lit slightly longer relative to what we're doing.
Sadly my wife is never going to let me back this.
Might have something to do with how much I spent on the first game 🤷♂️
I played with a really Handsome group of guys, and we felt the same way. Hopefully when this comes out we can get the same group together!
Handsome with a capital H, wow. They must be something special.
I think this game shouldn't be compared to Gloomhaven. They are in the different genre.
It should be compared to Sleeping God instead. Both are narrative based.
I think that while Tainted Grail has a stronger focus on narrative, they are absolutely still in the same genre. They just place their focus on different areas, but they are both campaign and legacy games with combat and narrative that you'll play over the course of months with the same group of friends. I think the same type of game groups would consider purchasing and playing all 3 of the games you mentioned.
Thanks for sharing
You're very welcome!
men-hear
I dont like it the mecanic to do damage :/
It's not for everyone! Nothing wrong with that.
@@AllYouCanBoard Agree
Gloomhaven's story is complete trash and does not improve throughout the campaign, it gets worse. Talk about a grind of a RPG that is completely overrated. The only thing Gloomhaven has going for it is the mechanics and they are not that great tbh. The Tainted Grail series kills it when it comes to story and that's why people play it. Personally, I'm tired of playing these "RPGs" with zero to no story. I enjoyed your video, thank you for the insight!
I agree that Gloomhaven has almost no story, but that is by design. It is like comparing a Final Fantasy game to Final Fantasy Tactics. Tactics had almost no story, but the game was about tactical combat, and it did that really well. Same with Advance Wars. Gloomhaven would be a much worse game if there was exploration and narrative emphasis. It has just enough to get you to the next tactical scenario, perhaps a bit too much. Jaws of the Lion sort of blew GH out of the water for me because you do almost nothing between missions. You can flip the page and try a new scenario.
I totally understand if you don't like Gloomhaven because you prefer a game with a narrative focus. But it does what it does really well, and when it came out, there was nothing like it out there. I agree that a game that sucks you into the story, making the hours pass like nothing as you play, is the best. It takes real talent to write compelling narrative like that. But if Gloomhaven had that sort of narrative, no one would play it. People who want the tactics would be screaming about the story getting in the way, and people who want the story would be turned off by the combat taking too long.
@@lucduchien "Tactics had almost no story"?
What? It's the only Final Fantasy with a good story.
@@fy8798 So I looked into your claim, and it turns out other people cared about the story more than I did. My mistake. When I played it 25 years ago, I just thought of the story as going on in the background. I should play it again.
Still, Final Fantasy VI has the best story IMO.
I still think that Gloomhaven would have been less popular if it required more exploration and narrative to get through. It might even be a better game, but less people would play it.