Your earlier video was what helped with my decision to purchase the Philos. The choice for myself was between the Philos and the Timemore 78S. The Philos for pouriver and espresso looked to be the better choice. Next was build quality, burrs alignment and seasoning. I did use a couple of kilos to season, but the Timemore had a reputation of needed alot of seasoning. The size is not a problem in my small kitchen. It us the same height as my Lucca X58 HX machine. I added a sliding pad underneath which made the Philos easy to maneuver. I hated the dosing cup and replaced it with the Sworks shaker. A perfect fit and magnetic. I was looking for a long term, durable, reliable grinder that would give consistent results on both pour over and espresso. The Philis absolutely delivers. The I200 burrs are producing flavor notes I did not find with my DF64E. I actually find the half steps useful in dialing in espresso. For a few 100 more than the Timemore and may $ less than a long wait Zerno, the Philos is perfectly placed. The one big disappointment was the grinder is not through a dealer. I would have preferred the support if my local(Clive) shop for piece of mind down the road.
I can’t even remember how many months ago I ordered my Zerno. But as we speak, it is under construction, and should be in my hands in another six weeks or so. Thanks for the review. Outstanding as usual.
I got my Zerno in just under 10 months. I've been waiting 13 and counting for the Argos. You won't remember the wait after a week, you'll just be enjoying the coffee.
One comparison I would have liked to see is the cleaning process. I own a Philos, and it’s brilliant. No tools needed. An advantage of the rear adjustment is that the setting is perfectly maintained throughout the cleaning process. What an improvement from the Niche Zero! The Zerno looks easy too, but it’s not tool-free and the adjustment might get bumped. The one aspect that we can only sense with experience (or at least a video) is hard to reach places, small corners that trap coffee, and the need to flip things so the dust falls out. A problem with the Niche Zero is that there are places where the coffee residue cakes on and gets gummy. The Philos doesn’t have any such areas. A quick clean is almost instant. An OCD cleaning takes a couple of minutes, with the burr screws trapping the most dust, but a quick clean is all that’s needed for maintenance and for going to a different coffee without cross contamination.
Wow, I think the Niche Zero Has an amazing cleaning process. I literally waited six months and I didn't even get a gram of coffee out, and it only had two little spots where it was kind of caked if I remember correctly (on the burr carrier?)... I pull, on average, 2 18.5g shots before work. With guests, I usually never grind through more than 5 or 6 shotsworth. So i'm not a heavy user, but I also would say, it grinds, bare minimum, 1-2 shots per day averaged out. If this is easier, holy crap, it would be basically effortless! I do love my straight forward set up, but I feel like I could perhaps actually develop a taste for more clarity at this point. Since my grinder has mazzer burrs, this would be an intuitive next step, right? 😆 i'm looking squarely at this rabbit hole 😅
Great point, I should have included this. I would say the philos is quicker, but only marginally so if you keep the one driver for the z1 handy. (I keep that driver in the drawer below my bar). I will say the Z1 is a more thorough clean, because you can easily clean in behind the rotating burr and chute. In the philos you are unable to clean behind the rotating burr.
@NoZenith I dread cleaning my niche zero. The instructions for putting it back together just say to calibrate to "finger tight". That's impossible to repeat, and I get to spend a week trying to get my grind size back every time. I love the grinder, especially for the price, but cleaning it sucks.
Thank you for your detailed comparison and for always reminding us about sound fiscal sense when considering these grinders 😅 I'm satisfied with my Z1 and even when Zerno comes out with their 80 mm version, no FOMO there.
I already wrote something similar in other creators' videos on this topic, but I think another downside of the Z1 as a European (in addition to the very high import price) is that if some issue arises, you have no one in Europe to deal with. Because of that alone I would always rather go with something like the P64. Option-O has many official partners in Europe, so any warranty or repair issue can be resolved locally. It's obviously a great grinder, but really hard to justify if you are not from North America imo.
Having spoken with Vel and company quite a bit, I decided on the Zerno. Not only is it built to last - seriously, the component quality and machining is Kafatek-level - it's also very compact, and there are some really lovely QoL things that really stood out, especially the fact that they preload the bearings so there really is barely any movement during grinding. Very few manufacturers bother with this and it's part of why AFAIK the Z1 is the only 64mm grinder I'm aware of that can choke a 58mm machine with the Ode Gen2 brew burrs.
I went for the Zerno and I’m super happy with it. Solid, no plastic, quiet, grinds fast enough for me and has a small foot print that fits on our countertop. Was worth the wait and the money spent.
Great video - I think you perfectly showed the differences and why the relative price difference. Perfectly happy with my Philos (only espresso). I have the Z on order but I'm not sure its worth the extra $$ in my case as much as I already enjoy this one.
Had it been immediately available, I probably would have got the Zerno. But I just love my Philos. I love its size and looks, it puts a smile on my face each time I see it. One day I’ll get some SSP burrs to have a comparison, for now I love what I’m getting from the i200d burrs, between them and my Flair 58, it’s pretty forgiving, and fairly easy to dial whatever style you want. I enjoy everything from 15sec turbo to 50sec Slayer shots. Overall I get a great mix of bright and shiny and/or dense and creamy shots, at least on par with what I can find in pretty much any café here in Berlin. Would I like blind burrs, all metal parts and a suite of SSP burrs to tinker with? Yes, and I’ll get some different burrs one day. Not sure the price for importing a Z1 here would have been worth it, though, even without the absurd wait.
Honestly, if only they had a shopfront and you could buy them, go on an American holiday and bring one back on the plane in under carry. Avoid the import tax and go see the world 😂
Excellent comparison! Another consideration is whether you intend to maximize one piece of gear or your whole coffee experience. The Philos 200 burr opens up light roasts to me. I can then roast my greens lighter and appreciate that style of coffee more than I had before. It’s half the price, which is the cost of an IKAWA Home roaster. So for the price of a Z1, I get a grinder and a roaster and can experiment with small quantities of superb green coffees. Or, let’s say I don’t want to roast but would like to try my hand at a lever machine. This approach to coffee as a hobby is different than assembling a grinder, espresso machine and other brewers to enjoy purchased coffees. Neither approach is better. But price and availability with nearly comparable performance is an important difference.
I can't get past how reliable Mazzer grinders are. I trust them to last. Also, I feel like the all around burrs on the Mazzer make way more sense for me. I drink a wide variety of coffees and I don't want to change burrs frequently (although I will probably get both burrs anyway). I also want something that could work as a SOE or decaf option in a light commercial application, so the Mazzer just makes sense for me even if they were exactly the same price.
The dopamine rush when it arrives though 😮💨😮💨 CANNOT WAIT. I feel like the long wait times for manufacturing make the anticipation go through the roof with excitement
I would take a Philos over a Casa on espresso. On filter, I think it depends what you are looking for in the cup. ZP6 is very purpose specific and produces a distinct cup
I currently have a niche Zero and ordered the zerno wirh HU burrs. I’m so excited to compare the traditional espresso from the niche to the more cafe style espresso from the Zerno, the coffee shop I used to work at used a Victoria arduino Mythos 1 grinder and the burrs if slightly larger are very similar in cutting teeth. That with Single O coffee it tasted great. The grinder is beautiful, compact, so well built and contains no plastic besides the electronic components. The Philos is lovely, but the fact the front plate is stuck on with double sided tape, it just feels like they cut production cost too much, but price and wait times are a big thing for many people. also I think when Val was getting suppliers the Brushed motor was easier to source, I really, really, really wish it had a brushless DC motor similar to the Lagom P64, that thing is so quiet and humid when it’s running 😮💨 Zerno would top the list if it had a quiet motor. Also, a great thing to mention, kind of unlike the Philos, there’s companies like introvert are making bigger hoppers with similar wooden accents if people want to grind 45 to 50 g doses for pour over. There’s some awesome stuff going on! With Zerno and I love their Philosophy around design and manufacturing. Thanks for the Review Justin ❤
@@SetaRossa83glad to know they fixed that. 😂 who on the design team though yeah let’s make a $1000 grinder and stick our logo plate on with tape. Not a biggie but was shocked when people found it. Should’ve been done from the start 😅
According to Vel, the brushless motor will be backwards-compatible with current Z1s. I'm sure they'll have a swap option, but no details on that available yet.
Z1 honestly makes no sense in Europe. For the price with shipping, VAT and customs fees, you can already get a bigger burr grinder. Basically EK43 price range.
Not that I have any experience using the Varia , but from what I’ve seen I think it’s a fantastic Grinder, comes in at a cheaper price point. My only complaint is that the burrs are proprieta. They are built / cnc milled into the carrier , which means you can’t use any other type of burr unless you get some third-party option that enables you to fix SSP burrs into the carrier, if a company is going to charge so much money for a Grinder, you should be able to put any 64 mm burn in, I don’t like companies that lock you in to whatever they’re trying to get you to use. besides that it’s great.
Very nice articulate and well-reasoned overview of those two excellent flat grinders! But gotta ask if you're planning a review of the Kafatek MC6 for those crazier coffeeheads among us in your audience. 😆
I would LOVE to use and review an MC6. I’m not at the point (yet) where I can purchase grinders at that pricing tier for reviews and don’t know anyone local with one who is able to loan it out (I also like to use expensive grinders for a few months before reviewing!). At some point this will happen but likely not in the next few months.
A bit off topic, but we gotta get you to review the MAVO Phantox Pro. It’s all over Asia now, and considered to be between a Zp6 and Comandante c40 in terms of clarity. It’d be cool if you were the first English speaking channel to review it.
Hi hi, you never said if you found the SSP HU in philos to be better than the 189D in the philos, any thoughts? Don't put too much value on the price difference since I already have the HU burrs but not the 189D.
for Europe the price isn't even close due to shipping + tax on the Zerno which makes it almost 3x the price of the Philos. But I think I prefer the 078S anyway.
Would you consider a Philos a good pair with a Profitec Go? I’m comfortable with the cost because I know the importance of the grinder and I want a setup with tons of headroom. The main other one I’m considering is the 064S.
@@DaddyGotCoffee That makes sense. Is it an over-the-top pairing for what I can get out of the Profitec? That is my only concern. Hoping to keep this setup for the next 5-10 years.
One thing to note about Philos is the current price is introductary price. At some point it will increase so it may become more closer to Z1 but we dont know how much it will go to. Im guessing $1100. So still 400 cheaper then Z1.
Great detailed video. If you had to choose between Ek43S and Z1, what will be your choice? I am torned between these two grinders and I can not make up my mind. Thanks!!
I have an ek43 as well and the Zerno is what’s on my bar day to day. The ek43 is fun to bring out now and then but it’s big and loud. Also, we have fairly limited counter space and it’s much more convenient to have a grinder that I can quickly and easily change burrs in. With the EK43 I try to avoid burr swaps 🤣
@@DaddyGotCoffee It's not that hard to change burrs on the EK43 is it? It's not like a Timemore Sculptor grinder at least :D The problem is the PRICE of 98mm burrs!
I'd absolutely love to have a zerno, i currently have a pietro and im very happy with it but i would like my be-all end-all grinder to be electric. I love the fact you can get blind burrs, its a smaller footprint and that its a small company very clearly listening to feedback and making many upgrades retrofitable. But since i dont live in the land of expansive healthcare, imported small production goods from the US can even double in price. For that price i might as well get a webber if i had that level of money, it's sad to say it cause i really want one, but if i risk paying 3-4k all in all, the zerno just makes no sense to a non US consumer.
As European it's pretty easy choice which one to order. Zerno Z1 after shipping + import taxes is 2100€ while Philos is 999€ Yeah I don't think the price comparision is even close to each other.
Wow, I've been waiting for this comparison with bated breath. As usual, you're candid, critical, and thorough. My #1 concern is burr travel. For instance, with Zerno Z1, could I dial in my grind size for espresso one day and for my French press the next day, and then go back and forth accurately between settings? With my current grinder, I dial in my grind size for espresso and leave as is. Obviously, with different beans I adjust the dial slightly but changing grind settings is not an option due to burr travel. Changing between espresso and French press grinds, however, is a wide distance for the burrs to travel. Because of this, I use my electric grinder for espresso and my manual hand grinder for French press. It would be great to use an electric grinder where I can go back and forth between dial settings and know that the burrs have not traveled. What's been your experience? Thank you.
Great question! And I can do you one better than grind changes. I’ve dialed in an espresso, done a full burr swap (without re-zeroing), brewed filter, swapped BACK to the espresso burrs and had my dial in point on the exact same tick. Same for burr chirps. The Z1 is excellent at holding calibration across grind changes and even full burr changes
@@DaddyGotCoffee Get out the door !!! That's amazing !!! I would love to see a video demonstration switching grind size back and forth without loss of calibration. Thank you.
@@DaddyGotCoffee Thank you so much. One more question. On the Z1, how many turns of the dial does it take to go from a fine espresso grind to a coarse French press grind? If the dial has to be turned 360º for several rotations, it can get confusing. Thank you.
Would you recommend to wait for the zerno until April may while using a df64 v2? Or just get the mazzer? I dont have a lot of counter space to make adjustments to the mazzer which turned me off to it.
Great video. Thank you. I especially appreciated the Lagom alternative. I think it’s important to throw in an alternative for people to consider (in this case a price alternative). Lagom is 50% cheaper today (Canadian $) I was leaning toward a Phillips but now you have me looking at Lagom. Paired with the Profitec Go would this be a good pair to an espresso newbie?
It’s a really good grinder for under 400 bucks. I had some wobble in my T joint which has I think been eliminated. I really like the profile on both filter and espresso. Worth a look for sure!
For me and my testing I didn't notice much difference with blind burrs and the medium speed auger on the V2 of the Zerno Z1 vs P64 with same SSP MP burrs. The slow feed auger might have more of an impact though, if it was available at the time and wasn't so expensive to ship to Canada separately I would have loved to have kept the Zerno and tried it. Luckily now we have devices coming out to slow feed on various grinders, so that should achieve the same thing as an auger basically. Some people seem to over hype things and made it sound like an Auger / Pre breaker and vertical burrs are a game changer, but I was definitely underwhelmed.
Can't wait to get my hands on a slow feeder from cremaloop to use with my lagom casa. But I have been wondering about something. What if one placed a battery operated grinder like the Timemore X Millab on top of the bean funnel on another grinder, put the beans in the Millab, set it as course as it can grind and started both of the grinders at the same time. Ridiculous, I know. But wondering about the outcome.
I would want to test this myself before making a comment! I haven’t had hands on a P64 yet, but people really love them. I do think the prebreaker in the z1 adds, if nothing else, some flexibility.
I had both, I had the P64 initially and it's probably my favourite grinder. BUT Lance was saying how an Auger / pre breaker and blind burrs make a 64mm burr more like a 98mm burr, so when I finally got and compared the Zerno Z1 with blind SSP MP burrs to my P64 with regular SSP MP burrs I was pretty disappointed. For filter it was basically the same thing, hard to tell the difference. The espresso maybe was a little different, seemed maybe more forgiving, less clarity more body with the Zerno maybe due to burr seasoning differences or just shot to shot variance. Sometimes I like the Zerno shot better sometimes I liked the P64 shot better. But definitely NOT that much of a difference. I liked the versatility and quiet motor in the P64 more (You can use a dosing cup or portafilter forks on the P64, you get variable RPM which I find makes a difference with SSP MP burrs, but doesn't with SSP Cast or Mizen burrs it seems). So I kept the P64. Also was kinda disappointed the Zerno felt like it wasn't complete yet (Ionizer didn't work, chute had retention and they later had a 3d printed solution for it) and I paid a lot for shipping and duties to get it into Canada. They wanted to charge me another $25 USD I think it was to ship a 'free' 3d printed adaptor to fix the retention. Now they have a better chute design and gave up on the ionizer I don't think the placement of it worked or it was just never actually functional (on my ODE Gen2 I can HEAR IT working, on my Friends GEVI I think I could too, but never noticed it on the Zerno.. suspiciously....)
Wow! Thank you @BensCoffeeRants for this level of detail, it's greatly appreciated! I haven't seen anything online/youtube comparing these two grinders, so this is very helpful! @DaddyGotCoffee, this looks like a great opportunity for a future video comparison! Maybe Cafune can loan a P64? (P.S. Cafune is awesome!) Thank you both again!!
Yes, people have done that in the EAF discord Zerno channel. There was discussion by Vel about designing their own shaker. Currently the Sworks blind shaker has the correct orientation of the magnet that goes with the Z1.
I (think) I covered this in my full philos review. On the Z1, it’s so dependent on the burr you spec, which is why I want to make that video comparing the 5 available factory equipped SSP burr options on the z1. These types of comparisons will be in that video
@@DaddyGotCoffee Right, but the Philos can be ordered with different burrs than the Zerno, and not many will put SSP in the Philos or the Mazzer I burrs in the Zerno, so a comparison of the corresponding burr options would be actually integral to this video. Like, how is I189D vs SSP HU, and the I200D vs not sure what, I guess SSP MP or Cast?
@ on these specific comparisons I covered them in my philos full review:) if you’re looking for specific tasting notes on the i200d and i189 I would def give that a watch as there is a lot of detail there. If I were to have done full tasting comparison on both of those and all 6 burr options for the Z1 and compared them against other popularly requested grinders, this video would have been 60 minutes instead of 26 ☕️ Content on the SSP z1 options is incoming. 🤝
Thank you for this but no surprises that a grinder that costs 50 to 100% more is better. Not always true of course. The real question is, what other grinders at the same price point are available and how does this compare?
I probably spent over an half hour trying to get the blind burrs out on my V2 Zerno Z1 lol Now they have a magnet to pull them off, I had a paper clip your supposed to poke through the back of the grinder, but the video didn't show how that worked, I was poking the wrong hole :D
@@DaddyGotCoffee Yeah issue was the first time I didn't know what I was doing, but I was also switching back and forth between some burrs with screw holes and without so that adds an extra step and doesn't make it faster (you gotta deal with screwing in the little pegs for the blind burrs or removing them for ones with holes), if you have multiple blind burrs that makes it faster and easier especially now if it comes with a magnetic removing tool. Mine also had 3 little tiny screws for the blind burrs which attached on the sides! I don't think they have them anymore, and hopefully it's not needed. Seems like they're still changing things up / improving the grinder as they go which is a good thing I guess. But sucks if you're an early adopter!
Be interesting to see a comparison with Philos to the DF83V. I guess longevity would be the supposed selling point for the Philos. But only time will tell I guess
Ooof! That squeal from the Z1. I am very sensitive to higher pitch sounds, I don't remember what the doctor calls it. The pitch and tone was a massive selling point for the Niche Zero, as most other grinders with a similar small footprint and high quality output with low retention sounded like they were crying and wanting to die (wanted a Sette originally... but I honestly felt ill being in the same room during my one experience with that grinder 😅).
@coffee.junkie oh LOVELY. I should probably know what it's called, but high pitched things make me kind of nauseous. It's like a sharp jab in my ear, and then I just feel really upset. And it lasts for a little while after they get turned off. Small motors often have this high frequency whine in the background that most people can't hear such as small fans, humidifiers, charging blocks/wall warts, 12v cigarette lighter usb chargers, etc. Just the anticipation of having to do that every morning had me jump way up the price range (I literally paired the Niche Zero (USA purchase when they were at near peak price with the controversial additional fee) with a Bambino Plus, that I got on sale for 30% off 😅
@@NoZenith I believe with the Z1, the more annoying noise is coming from the gear mechanism rather than from the motor itself. My understanding is that the brushless motor will enable Vel to dispense with that entirely.
@@NoZenith when you listen to the Zeno motor running, the actual motor is running a much higher RPM compared to the burrs, that high-pitched noise sounds like it’s running at the speed of the burrs which makes me think it’s the gearbox, not the motor that’s giving the noise, how they can reduce that really annoying high-pitched frequency I’m not too sure, but it would be nice if it sounded like the option O P64. 😅
Mazzer grinders tend to go on forever. They are built to last. I look at that Zerno and I just don't think it's got the same build quality or longevity. That Mazzer is probably going to be going strong in 20 years time. Certainly longer than 10.
Good burrs options in either 83mm or 64mm now, I think depending on which burrs you want that's going to increase the total price. IF your wanting SSPS in either of them the 83mm versions are significantly more expensive!
I already have the DF83v, I bought it over a year ago when it first released I was just wondering how it compared in espresso. Honestly the quality is really really good. Not a single issue, only thing I’d change is it could have been aligned better from factory but I aligned it and it’s fine. Retention zero. Though a knocker would help For clean up.
Great comparison! I've heard Pietro hand grinder can rival $1500 grinders. If it interest you and the community, I would like to see it compared to the Zerno in term of taste. Thank you!
I actually touched on this if my 078 video if you go in the chapter list! UMV1 in the Z1 gives me the highest separation and tea like body. The Pietro gives almost a la good of separation (and better separation than any other grinder I’ve used below 2k besides the z1), with a more satin mouthfeel/body.
The Philos is nice but boy is it HUGE - no way my wife would let me have that on the counter. Not sure why it needs to be so large - the Z1 is quite powerful and looks like a toy next to the Philos.
@ On the technical side, the blind burrs on the Z1 are a big plus for me - not only easier to swap out but should lead to a more consistent particle distribution. I also really like that it’s modular and you can swap out the pre-breaker - this will future proof it and allow for experimentation. I have one on order - should ship in April/May - can’t wait!
When it comes to price tags both of these grinders are expensive. BUT better get yourself a fantastic grinder as an expensive coffee brewer/machine. In a shit in/shit out ratio always the better grinder wins.
The other way to think about it is that any of these superlative grinders will outlive all of us, so the difference in upfront cost will be amortized almost to nothing with any of these endgame machines. And as Lance Hedrick has pointed out, once you're happy with a grinder like this, there's no need really ever to "upgrade" to anything else.
Yea but at the rate of all these grinders coming out every other month, buyers will continue questioning, contonue watching influencers, continue to be swayed amd continue buying endgame grinders that never become endgame
@@ilkzode1822 Not a fault of the grinders. :) With perfectly wonderful grinders, it's a losing game being a compulsive serial machine swapper the same way some people are serial spouse swappers.
What are your thoughts on the P64? Especially with HU burrs? Have you ever had a chance to try it? Thinking about picking one up until I can get my hands on a Zerno lol
I haven’t (yet) used a P64 - I would love to review one this year. They are very well regarded and hold their value. I’d also love to do a shootout of all the higher end 64mm grinders. I have an orbit on deck as well!
No way to soundly compare with indisputable data regarding blind vs screwed burrs. Another gimmick in the consumer selling market. But buyers will be idiots and think so and spend more
Do these have variable RPM? From what I know, no, which IMHO for both, at these prices, I think it's a bit of a let-down, especially on the zerno side. They look great, I am sure they are great, but still, at that price level with all those options it should have it.
Thanks for the super clear video. I can see the Orbit in the back. Will you tell us what do you think about Orbit SSP MP vs Key II for espresso? Dark-medium, Medium and Light. I saw the MPs in the Zerno and the MP like in the Mazzer. Would it be better to go to HUs or LSv3 for espresso and milk based drinks, if 64mm? How will the Key II burrs will compare? Asking as the burrs (81 conical Mazzer) of Key II had some not very good comments the last week in some videos. Not your video. Many thanks and sorry if I am asking a lot of questions ☺
Hey there! My orbit has CV3s and I don’t actually have non-blind MPs, maybe I should get some? The Key is a very “different” grinder. I use and pull with it differently than I do other grinders. I saw that video and don’t disagree with the PSD analysis (in fact, I agree - it’s strange), but I was able to find a sweet spot where I really enjoy light roast espresso and it is not under extracted or bitter. Part of that is a slightly longer contact time than I would do with other grinders. I get a nice blend on lights without any weird edge on the bitter or sour side. Heavy processing is especially nice. I do prefer a lighter body in my espresso than many, which was also mentioned in that video. It took me a while to find the way I like to pull using it though, definitely different. I will say, results in the cup are more than just PSD and can be very complex. Agreed that the MC6 should also be looked at once you get into that price bracket and according to many it offers the best conical experience out there in the cup. I haven’t tested it (yet ☕️😎).
Cool! Many thanks for the answer. And if you want to do pour over MPs are super in the Orbit. Even Medium dark with 1:3 or 1:2.5 ratios. Difficult to dial in but very tasty when you get it right. Thanks!
The Zerno is amazing! You won't regret getting one! I've had many grinders, including a well aligned EK43 with many different burrs. I now have the Zerno Z1 and couldn't be happier,
The Mazzer probably has a unique selling point: the grinding level can be adjusted from the back!! Not only we, but also all of our friends and acquaintances have the grinder on the worktop in their kitchen and the grinder has to be operated from the front. For this reason alone, buying the Mazzer is out of the question for us. .
@davignon3058 Umm... he specifically said that the rear grind adjustment wasn't an issue. In fact, in every review of this grinder that I've seen the reviewer has said the same thing. If you can't take reviewer's word for that, why take their word for anything?
I own a Philos. The rear adjustment is perfectly fine and easy to operate. When I open and clean the grinder, the adjustment is maintained exactly, before and after. There’s no reason to fear the rear adjustment.
This video is complete garbage, confusing, non-technical, and with complete misinformation The I189D burrs is for darker roasts and I200D is for lighter medium roasts.
He literally shows the official Mazzer burr page at 5:28, which clearly explains the difference. What are you even on about? Could you care to expand on why you think it's "confusing", "non-technical" and "complete misinformation"?
@@simonkinzo5510 Interesting take, pretty sure I said exactly this in the video. 9:38 - i200ds are better suited to medium to light roasts 11:20 189s are better suited for med to dark roasts and produce a more traditional espresso shot
@ LOL - sorry I loeft the wrong timestamps in my last comment because you left the exact same comment on several of my videos featuring the philos. I stand by my comments in this video. i200d - higher clarity, suitable for all around use, i189, more focus on traditional espresso - and yes, that would include darker roasts. I expand on the roast level compatibility in the *other* video you left this comment on. ruclips.net/video/UuU2olgbPGA/видео.htmlsi=agxVLHqWfaY-8pKp&t=561
@@phraktlcan you give us a little info, even if you don't have time to fully elaborate? I'm unaware of where to even start to figure out what you're referencing. Thank you.
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Your earlier video was what helped with my decision to purchase the Philos. The choice for myself was between the Philos and the Timemore 78S. The Philos for pouriver and espresso looked to be the better choice. Next was build quality, burrs alignment and seasoning. I did use a couple of kilos to season, but the Timemore had a reputation of needed alot of seasoning. The size is not a problem in my small kitchen. It us the same height as my Lucca X58 HX machine. I added a sliding pad underneath which made the Philos easy to maneuver. I hated the dosing cup and replaced it with the Sworks shaker. A perfect fit and magnetic. I was looking for a long term, durable, reliable grinder that would give consistent results on both pour over and espresso. The Philis absolutely delivers. The I200 burrs are producing flavor notes I did not find with my DF64E. I actually find the half steps useful in dialing in espresso. For a few 100 more than the Timemore and may $ less than a long wait Zerno, the Philos is perfectly placed.
The one big disappointment was the grinder is not through a dealer. I would have preferred the support if my local(Clive) shop for piece of mind down the road.
I can’t even remember how many months ago I ordered my Zerno. But as we speak, it is under construction, and should be in my hands in another six weeks or so. Thanks for the review. Outstanding as usual.
I got my Zerno in just under 10 months. I've been waiting 13 and counting for the Argos. You won't remember the wait after a week, you'll just be enjoying the coffee.
One comparison I would have liked to see is the cleaning process. I own a Philos, and it’s brilliant. No tools needed. An advantage of the rear adjustment is that the setting is perfectly maintained throughout the cleaning process. What an improvement from the Niche Zero!
The Zerno looks easy too, but it’s not tool-free and the adjustment might get bumped.
The one aspect that we can only sense with experience (or at least a video) is hard to reach places, small corners that trap coffee, and the need to flip things so the dust falls out. A problem with the Niche Zero is that there are places where the coffee residue cakes on and gets gummy. The Philos doesn’t have any such areas. A quick clean is almost instant. An OCD cleaning takes a couple of minutes, with the burr screws trapping the most dust, but a quick clean is all that’s needed for maintenance and for going to a different coffee without cross contamination.
Wow, I think the Niche Zero Has an amazing cleaning process. I literally waited six months and I didn't even get a gram of coffee out, and it only had two little spots where it was kind of caked if I remember correctly (on the burr carrier?)... I pull, on average, 2 18.5g shots before work. With guests, I usually never grind through more than 5 or 6 shotsworth. So i'm not a heavy user, but I also would say, it grinds, bare minimum, 1-2 shots per day averaged out. If this is easier, holy crap, it would be basically effortless!
I do love my straight forward set up, but I feel like I could perhaps actually develop a taste for more clarity at this point. Since my grinder has mazzer burrs, this would be an intuitive next step, right? 😆 i'm looking squarely at this rabbit hole 😅
Great point, I should have included this. I would say the philos is quicker, but only marginally so if you keep the one driver for the z1 handy. (I keep that driver in the drawer below my bar).
I will say the Z1 is a more thorough clean, because you can easily clean in behind the rotating burr and chute. In the philos you are unable to clean behind the rotating burr.
@NoZenith I dread cleaning my niche zero. The instructions for putting it back together just say to calibrate to "finger tight". That's impossible to repeat, and I get to spend a week trying to get my grind size back every time.
I love the grinder, especially for the price, but cleaning it sucks.
Thank you for the review, VERY MUCH looking forward to the Zerno burr video you mentioned!
Thank you for your detailed comparison and for always reminding us about sound fiscal sense when considering these grinders 😅
I'm satisfied with my Z1 and even when Zerno comes out with their 80 mm version, no FOMO there.
I already wrote something similar in other creators' videos on this topic, but I think another downside of the Z1 as a European (in addition to the very high import price) is that if some issue arises, you have no one in Europe to deal with. Because of that alone I would always rather go with something like the P64. Option-O has many official partners in Europe, so any warranty or repair issue can be resolved locally. It's obviously a great grinder, but really hard to justify if you are not from North America imo.
Fair point. I know the Zerno team are pretty on things but there’s still an ocean in the way 🤣
Makes sense, P64 is still a great option, not obsolete as some people make it seem.
Having spoken with Vel and company quite a bit, I decided on the Zerno. Not only is it built to last - seriously, the component quality and machining is Kafatek-level - it's also very compact, and there are some really lovely QoL things that really stood out, especially the fact that they preload the bearings so there really is barely any movement during grinding. Very few manufacturers bother with this and it's part of why AFAIK the Z1 is the only 64mm grinder I'm aware of that can choke a 58mm machine with the Ode Gen2 brew burrs.
I went for the Zerno and I’m super happy with it. Solid, no plastic, quiet, grinds fast enough for me and has a small foot print that fits on our countertop. Was worth the wait and the money spent.
I finally got my VS6 with the gold flat burrs and it's incredible
Thanks for the great comparison, Brother!
Appreciate it! ☕️
Great video - I think you perfectly showed the differences and why the relative price difference. Perfectly happy with my Philos (only espresso). I have the Z on order but I'm not sure its worth the extra $$ in my case as much as I already enjoy this one.
Had it been immediately available, I probably would have got the Zerno. But I just love my Philos. I love its size and looks, it puts a smile on my face each time I see it.
One day I’ll get some SSP burrs to have a comparison, for now I love what I’m getting from the i200d burrs, between them and my Flair 58, it’s pretty forgiving, and fairly easy to dial whatever style you want. I enjoy everything from 15sec turbo to 50sec Slayer shots. Overall I get a great mix of bright and shiny and/or dense and creamy shots, at least on par with what I can find in pretty much any café here in Berlin.
Would I like blind burrs, all metal parts and a suite of SSP burrs to tinker with? Yes, and I’ll get some different burrs one day. Not sure the price for importing a Z1 here would have been worth it, though, even without the absurd wait.
Honestly, if only they had a shopfront and you could buy them, go on an American holiday and bring one back on the plane in under carry. Avoid the import tax and go see the world 😂
My Philos is arriving on Monday. Looking forward
Excellent comparison! Another consideration is whether you intend to maximize one piece of gear or your whole coffee experience. The Philos 200 burr opens up light roasts to me. I can then roast my greens lighter and appreciate that style of coffee more than I had before. It’s half the price, which is the cost of an IKAWA Home roaster. So for the price of a Z1, I get a grinder and a roaster and can experiment with small quantities of superb green coffees. Or, let’s say I don’t want to roast but would like to try my hand at a lever machine. This approach to coffee as a hobby is different than assembling a grinder, espresso machine and other brewers to enjoy purchased coffees. Neither approach is better. But price and availability with nearly comparable performance is an important difference.
I have both and I moved the philos to my second home I don’t visit often.
Really needed this video. Thanks
💪
Another well done video Justin. ☕️👍
I can't get past how reliable Mazzer grinders are. I trust them to last. Also, I feel like the all around burrs on the Mazzer make way more sense for me. I drink a wide variety of coffees and I don't want to change burrs frequently (although I will probably get both burrs anyway). I also want something that could work as a SOE or decaf option in a light commercial application, so the Mazzer just makes sense for me even if they were exactly the same price.
Totally - that’s a perfect use-case for the Philos
@@DaddyGotCoffee I would like it in white to match my Baby T, Major V, and PuqPress 😂
To be fair, you can put the Mazzer burrs in the Zerno.
great review. still waiting for my zerno
The dopamine rush when it arrives though 😮💨😮💨 CANNOT WAIT. I feel like the long wait times for manufacturing make the anticipation go through the roof with excitement
I drink 70% pourover , 20% latte & 10% espresso. Lagom Casa & ZP6 or just a Philos? Which would be better?
I make pour over and espresso based drinks 50/50, it’s been really easy to change the grind size. I never spray water and it’s not messy at all.
Using Philos
I would take a Philos over a Casa on espresso. On filter, I think it depends what you are looking for in the cup. ZP6 is very purpose specific and produces a distinct cup
I think the Philos is pretty hard to beat for the price. I only brew filter and liked it better than brews from my Timemore 078.
Nice video. Looking forward to more burr and pre breaker analysis. 👍
Me too!! Z1 feels like a playground in this sense!
I think Lance is working on some stuff right now, might take a few months.
Yeah the slow feed auger should be interesting, I believe it should increase flavour clarity and grind consistency even further.
I currently have a niche Zero and ordered the zerno wirh HU burrs. I’m so excited to compare the traditional espresso from the niche to the more cafe style espresso from the Zerno, the coffee shop I used to work at used a Victoria arduino Mythos 1 grinder and the burrs if slightly larger are very similar in cutting teeth. That with Single O coffee it tasted great. The grinder is beautiful, compact, so well built and contains no plastic besides the electronic components.
The Philos is lovely, but the fact the front plate is stuck on with double sided tape, it just feels like they cut production cost too much, but price and wait times are a big thing for many people. also I think when Val was getting suppliers the Brushed motor was easier to source, I really, really, really wish it had a brushless DC motor similar to the Lagom P64, that thing is so quiet and humid when it’s running 😮💨 Zerno would top the list if it had a quiet motor.
Also, a great thing to mention, kind of unlike the Philos, there’s companies like introvert are making bigger hoppers with similar wooden accents if people want to grind 45 to 50 g doses for pour over. There’s some awesome stuff going on! With Zerno and I love their Philosophy around design and manufacturing. Thanks for the Review Justin ❤
Philos front is now fixed with screws
@@SetaRossa83glad to know they fixed that. 😂 who on the design team though yeah let’s make a $1000 grinder and stick our logo plate on with tape. Not a biggie but was shocked when people found it. Should’ve been done from the start 😅
According to Vel, the brushless motor will be backwards-compatible with current Z1s. I'm sure they'll have a swap option, but no details on that available yet.
@@rohanlg790 for your knowledge, several skyscrapers have glass walls fixed with tape, glue is nowadays a commonly used long term solution.
@ I am electrician, you cannot compare industrial building materials to some cheep 3m double sided tape on a consumer electronics product lmao.
Z1 honestly makes no sense in Europe. For the price with shipping, VAT and customs fees, you can already get a bigger burr grinder. Basically EK43 price range.
How about the Varia VS6 compared to them?
Not that I have any experience using the Varia , but from what I’ve seen I think it’s a fantastic Grinder, comes in at a cheaper price point. My only complaint is that the burrs are proprieta. They are built / cnc milled into the carrier , which means you can’t use any other type of burr unless you get some third-party option that enables you to fix SSP burrs into the carrier, if a company is going to charge so much money for a Grinder, you should be able to put any 64 mm burn in, I don’t like companies that lock you in to whatever they’re trying to get you to use. besides that it’s great.
Very nice articulate and well-reasoned overview of those two excellent flat grinders! But gotta ask if you're planning a review of the Kafatek MC6 for those crazier coffeeheads among us in your audience. 😆
I would LOVE to use and review an MC6. I’m not at the point (yet) where I can purchase grinders at that pricing tier for reviews and don’t know anyone local with one who is able to loan it out (I also like to use expensive grinders for a few months before reviewing!).
At some point this will happen but likely not in the next few months.
A bit off topic, but we gotta get you to review the MAVO Phantox Pro. It’s all over Asia now, and considered to be between a Zp6 and Comandante c40 in terms of clarity. It’d be cool if you were the first English speaking channel to review it.
You’re not the first person to mention the Phantox to me!
Hi hi, you never said if you found the SSP HU in philos to be better than the 189D in the philos, any thoughts? Don't put too much value on the price difference since I already have the HU burrs but not the 189D.
Personally I prefer the HU over the 189s ☕️
@@DaddyGotCoffee Thanks!
for Europe the price isn't even close due to shipping + tax on the Zerno which makes it almost 3x the price of the Philos. But I think I prefer the 078S anyway.
Would you consider a Philos a good pair with a Profitec Go? I’m comfortable with the cost because I know the importance of the grinder and I want a setup with tons of headroom. The main other one I’m considering is the 064S.
If cost (and size) wasn’t an issue personally I would choose a philos for sure
@@DaddyGotCoffee That makes sense. Is it an over-the-top pairing for what I can get out of the Profitec? That is my only concern. Hoping to keep this setup for the next 5-10 years.
One thing to note about Philos is the current price is introductary price. At some point it will increase so it may become more closer to Z1 but we dont know how much it will go to. Im guessing $1100. So still 400 cheaper then Z1.
Great detailed video. If you had to choose between Ek43S and Z1, what will be your choice? I am torned between these two grinders and I can not make up my mind. Thanks!!
It would be an easy choice for my wife... 😁
@@coffee.junkieentertain me plz.
I have an ek43 as well and the Zerno is what’s on my bar day to day. The ek43 is fun to bring out now and then but it’s big and loud. Also, we have fairly limited counter space and it’s much more convenient to have a grinder that I can quickly and easily change burrs in. With the EK43 I try to avoid burr swaps 🤣
@@DaddyGotCoffee It's not that hard to change burrs on the EK43 is it? It's not like a Timemore Sculptor grinder at least :D The problem is the PRICE of 98mm burrs!
Two massively different grinders besides just burr sizes.
I'd absolutely love to have a zerno, i currently have a pietro and im very happy with it but i would like my be-all end-all grinder to be electric. I love the fact you can get blind burrs, its a smaller footprint and that its a small company very clearly listening to feedback and making many upgrades retrofitable.
But since i dont live in the land of expansive healthcare, imported small production goods from the US can even double in price. For that price i might as well get a webber if i had that level of money, it's sad to say it cause i really want one, but if i risk paying 3-4k all in all, the zerno just makes no sense to a non US consumer.
As European it's pretty easy choice which one to order. Zerno Z1 after shipping + import taxes is 2100€ while Philos is 999€ Yeah I don't think the price comparision is even close to each other.
Wow, I've been waiting for this comparison with bated breath. As usual, you're candid, critical, and thorough. My #1 concern is burr travel. For instance, with Zerno Z1, could I dial in my grind size for espresso one day and for my French press the next day, and then go back and forth accurately between settings? With my current grinder, I dial in my grind size for espresso and leave as is. Obviously, with different beans I adjust the dial slightly but changing grind settings is not an option due to burr travel. Changing between espresso and French press grinds, however, is a wide distance for the burrs to travel. Because of this, I use my electric grinder for espresso and my manual hand grinder for French press. It would be great to use an electric grinder where I can go back and forth between dial settings and know that the burrs have not traveled. What's been your experience? Thank you.
Great question! And I can do you one better than grind changes. I’ve dialed in an espresso, done a full burr swap (without re-zeroing), brewed filter, swapped BACK to the espresso burrs and had my dial in point on the exact same tick. Same for burr chirps. The Z1 is excellent at holding calibration across grind changes and even full burr changes
@@DaddyGotCoffee Get out the door !!! That's amazing !!! I would love to see a video demonstration switching grind size back and forth without loss of calibration. Thank you.
@@DaddyGotCoffee Thank you so much. One more question. On the Z1, how many turns of the dial does it take to go from a fine espresso grind to a coarse French press grind? If the dial has to be turned 360º for several rotations, it can get confusing. Thank you.
Awesome video. What are your thoughts on the Eureka Atom W65? I feel like the grind by weight feature is huge for a good work flow.
Sad how none of the reviews I've seen on the Zerno mention the funnel cap is not included. Just another $30 for something that should be included.
Curious your take on taste profile of the SSP MP burrs in Z1 and the I200D burrs in Philos. Are they similar?
Would you recommend to wait for the zerno until April may while using a df64 v2? Or just get the mazzer? I dont have a lot of counter space to make adjustments to the mazzer which turned me off to it.
I have a philos and the back adjustment is no issue, have grown to prefer it
You would've had to already placed an order to get a Zerno by April or May. It takes roughly 6 months from order date to time of delivery.
Great video. Thank you. I especially appreciated the Lagom alternative. I think it’s important to throw in an alternative for people to consider (in this case a price alternative). Lagom is 50% cheaper today (Canadian $) I was leaning toward a Phillips but now you have me looking at Lagom. Paired with the Profitec Go would this be a good pair to an espresso newbie?
Phillos (spell check 🤯)
It’s a really good grinder for under 400 bucks. I had some wobble in my T joint which has I think been eliminated. I really like the profile on both filter and espresso. Worth a look for sure!
For me and my testing I didn't notice much difference with blind burrs and the medium speed auger on the V2 of the Zerno Z1 vs P64 with same SSP MP burrs.
The slow feed auger might have more of an impact though, if it was available at the time and wasn't so expensive to ship to Canada separately I would have loved to have kept the Zerno and tried it.
Luckily now we have devices coming out to slow feed on various grinders, so that should achieve the same thing as an auger basically. Some people seem to over hype things and made it sound like an Auger / Pre breaker and vertical burrs are a game changer, but I was definitely underwhelmed.
Can't wait to get my hands on a slow feeder from cremaloop to use with my lagom casa. But I have been wondering about something. What if one placed a battery operated grinder like the Timemore X Millab on top of the bean funnel on another grinder, put the beans in the Millab, set it as course as it can grind and started both of the grinders at the same time. Ridiculous, I know. But wondering about the outcome.
If you had to compare the Zerno Z1 with the Option-O Lagom P64, what would you lean towards? Thanks!
I would want to test this myself before making a comment! I haven’t had hands on a P64 yet, but people really love them. I do think the prebreaker in the z1 adds, if nothing else, some flexibility.
I had both, I had the P64 initially and it's probably my favourite grinder. BUT Lance was saying how an Auger / pre breaker and blind burrs make a 64mm burr more like a 98mm burr, so when I finally got and compared the Zerno Z1 with blind SSP MP burrs to my P64 with regular SSP MP burrs I was pretty disappointed. For filter it was basically the same thing, hard to tell the difference. The espresso maybe was a little different, seemed maybe more forgiving, less clarity more body with the Zerno maybe due to burr seasoning differences or just shot to shot variance. Sometimes I like the Zerno shot better sometimes I liked the P64 shot better. But definitely NOT that much of a difference. I liked the versatility and quiet motor in the P64 more (You can use a dosing cup or portafilter forks on the P64, you get variable RPM which I find makes a difference with SSP MP burrs, but doesn't with SSP Cast or Mizen burrs it seems). So I kept the P64. Also was kinda disappointed the Zerno felt like it wasn't complete yet (Ionizer didn't work, chute had retention and they later had a 3d printed solution for it) and I paid a lot for shipping and duties to get it into Canada. They wanted to charge me another $25 USD I think it was to ship a 'free' 3d printed adaptor to fix the retention.
Now they have a better chute design and gave up on the ionizer I don't think the placement of it worked or it was just never actually functional (on my ODE Gen2 I can HEAR IT working, on my Friends GEVI I think I could too, but never noticed it on the Zerno.. suspiciously....)
Wow! Thank you @BensCoffeeRants for this level of detail, it's greatly appreciated! I haven't seen anything online/youtube comparing these two grinders, so this is very helpful!
@DaddyGotCoffee, this looks like a great opportunity for a future video comparison! Maybe Cafune can loan a P64? (P.S. Cafune is awesome!)
Thank you both again!!
Has anyone managed to flip the magnet in the blind shaker, so that it works with the zerno?
Yes, people have done that in the EAF discord Zerno channel. There was discussion by Vel about designing their own shaker. Currently the Sworks blind shaker has the correct orientation of the magnet that goes with the Z1.
@bitcoins3212 can you remember how it's done? :)
@ I personally have not done it. Probably best to ask in the EAF discord channel
@@bitcoins3212 thanks!
26 minutes and not a word about taste? :) I was hoping you might comment, for example, how Philos (or Zerno) fares against the Casa for espresso
I (think) I covered this in my full philos review. On the Z1, it’s so dependent on the burr you spec, which is why I want to make that video comparing the 5 available factory equipped SSP burr options on the z1. These types of comparisons will be in that video
@@DaddyGotCoffee Right, but the Philos can be ordered with different burrs than the Zerno, and not many will put SSP in the Philos or the Mazzer I burrs in the Zerno, so a comparison of the corresponding burr options would be actually integral to this video. Like, how is I189D vs SSP HU, and the I200D vs not sure what, I guess SSP MP or Cast?
@ on these specific comparisons I covered them in my philos full review:) if you’re looking for specific tasting notes on the i200d and i189 I would def give that a watch as there is a lot of detail there.
If I were to have done full tasting comparison on both of those and all 6 burr options for the Z1 and compared them against other popularly requested grinders, this video would have been 60 minutes instead of 26 ☕️
Content on the SSP z1 options is incoming. 🤝
Thank you for this but no surprises that a grinder that costs 50 to 100% more is better. Not always true of course. The real question is, what other grinders at the same price point are available and how does this compare?
I had it all figured out and decided to get a Philos and now I don't know. Hmmm.
I probably spent over an half hour trying to get the blind burrs out on my V2 Zerno Z1 lol Now they have a magnet to pull them off, I had a paper clip your supposed to poke through the back of the grinder, but the video didn't show how that worked, I was poking the wrong hole :D
If you switch them often it’s easier. If it’s months between switches… yeah.. I’ll just say it gets fast with practice 🤣☕️
@@DaddyGotCoffee Yeah issue was the first time I didn't know what I was doing, but I was also switching back and forth between some burrs with screw holes and without so that adds an extra step and doesn't make it faster (you gotta deal with screwing in the little pegs for the blind burrs or removing them for ones with holes), if you have multiple blind burrs that makes it faster and easier especially now if it comes with a magnetic removing tool. Mine also had 3 little tiny screws for the blind burrs which attached on the sides! I don't think they have them anymore, and hopefully it's not needed. Seems like they're still changing things up / improving the grinder as they go which is a good thing I guess. But sucks if you're an early adopter!
LOL, yeah the hole is inside where the funnel fits and not on the back of the grinder.
@JeepBigE lol yeah I knew that much but there was two holes in that area.
Be interesting to see a comparison with Philos to the DF83V. I guess longevity would be the supposed selling point for the Philos. But only time will tell I guess
And a huge quality increase with the Philos. Probably hard to compare a 64mm grinder with an 83mm grinder.
Go with mazzer, DF is just rushed Chinese manufacturing
A heavy weight vs.a fly wight MAZZZZZZZER KO.
Not even remotely in the market for anything close to this, but gotta keep the algorithm up, so you get to give us more content 🎉
Ooof! That squeal from the Z1. I am very sensitive to higher pitch sounds, I don't remember what the doctor calls it. The pitch and tone was a massive selling point for the Niche Zero, as most other grinders with a similar small footprint and high quality output with low retention sounded like they were crying and wanting to die (wanted a Sette originally... but I honestly felt ill being in the same room during my one experience with that grinder 😅).
@@NoZenith Good thing the brushless DC motor version is on its way. That should be much quieter.
@coffee.junkie oh LOVELY. I should probably know what it's called, but high pitched things make me kind of nauseous. It's like a sharp jab in my ear, and then I just feel really upset. And it lasts for a little while after they get turned off. Small motors often have this high frequency whine in the background that most people can't hear such as small fans, humidifiers, charging blocks/wall warts, 12v cigarette lighter usb chargers, etc. Just the anticipation of having to do that every morning had me jump way up the price range (I literally paired the Niche Zero (USA purchase when they were at near peak price with the controversial additional fee) with a Bambino Plus, that I got on sale for 30% off 😅
@@NoZenith I believe with the Z1, the more annoying noise is coming from the gear mechanism rather than from the motor itself. My understanding is that the brushless motor will enable Vel to dispense with that entirely.
@@NoZenith when you listen to the Zeno motor running, the actual motor is running a much higher RPM compared to the burrs, that high-pitched noise sounds like it’s running at the speed of the burrs which makes me think it’s the gearbox, not the motor that’s giving the noise, how they can reduce that really annoying high-pitched frequency I’m not too sure, but it would be nice if it sounded like the option O P64. 😅
Mazzer grinders tend to go on forever. They are built to last. I look at that Zerno and I just don't think it's got the same build quality or longevity. That Mazzer is probably going to be going strong in 20 years time. Certainly longer than 10.
Best reviewer
🥰☕️
Can you please compare the DF83v as well please 🙏🏼 compared to the Philos since they have closer prices
Good burrs options in either 83mm or 64mm now, I think depending on which burrs you want that's going to increase the total price. IF your wanting SSPS in either of them the 83mm versions are significantly more expensive!
Go with mazzer, DF is just quick Chinese manufacturing, the quality of mazzer is incomparable to DF or “micoffee” whatever they call them
I already have the DF83v, I bought it over a year ago when it first released I was just wondering how it compared in espresso. Honestly the quality is really really good. Not a single issue, only thing I’d change is it could have been aligned better from factory but I aligned it and it’s fine. Retention zero. Though a knocker would help For clean up.
Can we expect a VS6 review soon?
I don’t currently have a unit but leave it with me!
Here i am wondering why I clicked. I have a used rok grinder and it works amazing! I guess i am a magpie at heart, ohh shiny!
I started with a Rok grinder! No regrets!
I ordered a Z1 because I just don't like how big the Philos is...
I thought his shirt said ‘Root Canals’ … and I was like wtf 😭
🤣🦫
Great comparison! I've heard Pietro hand grinder can rival $1500 grinders. If it interest you and the community, I would like to see it compared to the Zerno in term of taste. Thank you!
I actually touched on this if my 078 video if you go in the chapter list! UMV1 in the Z1 gives me the highest separation and tea like body. The Pietro gives almost a la good of separation (and better separation than any other grinder I’ve used below 2k besides the z1), with a more satin mouthfeel/body.
The Philos is nice but boy is it HUGE - no way my wife would let me have that on the counter. Not sure why it needs to be so large - the Z1 is quite powerful and looks like a toy next to the Philos.
It’s a chonky boy for sure!
@ On the technical side, the blind burrs on the Z1 are a big plus for me - not only easier to swap out but should lead to a more consistent particle distribution. I also really like that it’s modular and you can swap out the pre-breaker - this will future proof it and allow for experimentation. I have one on order - should ship in April/May - can’t wait!
Zerno FTW 🏁
Well, listen, I've agreed that you'll send me these two mills and I'll test them too. 😀
🤣
I just wish they would do a mini Philos! It's just so big
True, and no plastic parts.
@@jasonmurkin3364 It's a small grinder compared to commercial grinders
When it comes to price tags both of these grinders are expensive. BUT better get yourself a fantastic grinder as an expensive coffee brewer/machine. In a shit in/shit out ratio always the better grinder wins.
The other way to think about it is that any of these superlative grinders will outlive all of us, so the difference in upfront cost will be amortized almost to nothing with any of these endgame machines. And as Lance Hedrick has pointed out, once you're happy with a grinder like this, there's no need really ever to "upgrade" to anything else.
Yea but at the rate of all these grinders coming out every other month, buyers will continue questioning, contonue watching influencers, continue to be swayed amd continue buying endgame grinders that never become endgame
@@ilkzode1822 Not a fault of the grinders. :) With perfectly wonderful grinders, it's a losing game being a compulsive serial machine swapper the same way some people are serial spouse swappers.
What are your thoughts on the P64? Especially with HU burrs? Have you ever had a chance to try it? Thinking about picking one up until I can get my hands on a Zerno lol
I haven’t (yet) used a P64 - I would love to review one this year. They are very well regarded and hold their value. I’d also love to do a shootout of all the higher end 64mm grinders. I have an orbit on deck as well!
@ that video would be insane! Hope you can get your hands on one for review. Love your content man!
Would like to see these tested alongside the varia vs6
No way to soundly compare with indisputable data regarding blind vs screwed burrs.
Another gimmick in the consumer selling market. But buyers will be idiots and think so and spend more
@@ilkzode1822 wait. You lost me. Which grinder has the blind burrs? The P64 has the screwed in burrs right?
Do these have variable RPM? From what I know, no, which IMHO for both, at these prices, I think it's a bit of a let-down, especially on the zerno side. They look great, I am sure they are great, but still, at that price level with all those options it should have it.
Neither have it. I have mixed feelings on variable rpm overall, but I hear you
@@DaddyGotCoffee I get it, and I'm with you, but with all the bells ans whistles should come that as well. Thanks for the vid, love your work! 🍻
Thanks for the super clear video. I can see the Orbit in the back. Will you tell us what do you think about Orbit SSP MP vs Key II for espresso? Dark-medium, Medium and Light. I saw the MPs in the Zerno and the MP like in the Mazzer. Would it be better to go to HUs or LSv3 for espresso and milk based drinks, if 64mm? How will the Key II burrs will compare? Asking as the burrs (81 conical Mazzer) of Key II had some not very good comments the last week in some videos. Not your video. Many thanks and sorry if I am asking a lot of questions ☺
If you're in Key 2 land, the conical Shuriken 2 burrs in a MC6 should be part of the conversation as well! :)
Hey there! My orbit has CV3s and I don’t actually have non-blind MPs, maybe I should get some?
The Key is a very “different” grinder. I use and pull with it differently than I do other grinders. I saw that video and don’t disagree with the PSD analysis (in fact, I agree - it’s strange), but I was able to find a sweet spot where I really enjoy light roast espresso and it is not under extracted or bitter. Part of that is a slightly longer contact time than I would do with other grinders. I get a nice blend on lights without any weird edge on the bitter or sour side. Heavy processing is especially nice. I do prefer a lighter body in my espresso than many, which was also mentioned in that video. It took me a while to find the way I like to pull using it though, definitely different. I will say, results in the cup are more than just PSD and can be very complex.
Agreed that the MC6 should also be looked at once you get into that price bracket and according to many it offers the best conical experience out there in the cup. I haven’t tested it (yet ☕️😎).
Cool! Many thanks for the answer. And if you want to do pour over MPs are super in the Orbit. Even Medium dark with 1:3 or 1:2.5 ratios. Difficult to dial in but very tasty when you get it right. Thanks!
@@DaddyGotCoffee❤
Make a video about Mischief M40 hand grinder please :)
I still want a Zerno. End game for sure
The Zerno is amazing! You won't regret getting one! I've had many grinders, including a well aligned EK43 with many different burrs. I now have the Zerno Z1 and couldn't be happier,
@@Abrikosmandenwhat burr do you have for the z1
The Mazzer probably has a unique selling point: the grinding level can be adjusted from the back!!
Not only we, but also all of our friends and acquaintances have the grinder on the worktop in their kitchen and the grinder has to be operated from the front.
For this reason alone, buying the Mazzer is out of the question for us.
.
@davignon3058 Umm... he specifically said that the rear grind adjustment wasn't an issue. In fact, in every review of this grinder that I've seen the reviewer has said the same thing. If you can't take reviewer's word for that, why take their word for anything?
I own a Philos. The rear adjustment is perfectly fine and easy to operate. When I open and clean the grinder, the adjustment is maintained exactly, before and after. There’s no reason to fear the rear adjustment.
I loved the rear grind adjustment on the Philos. Very easy to adjust.
You know you don't have to walk around to the rear of the grinder, right? :)
This video is complete garbage, confusing, non-technical, and with complete misinformation
The I189D burrs is for darker roasts and I200D is for lighter medium roasts.
He literally shows the official Mazzer burr page at 5:28, which clearly explains the difference. What are you even on about? Could you care to expand on why you think it's "confusing", "non-technical" and "complete misinformation"?
@@warlockshadowbolt contradicts with what he says
@@simonkinzo5510 Interesting take, pretty sure I said exactly this in the video.
9:38 - i200ds are better suited to medium to light roasts
11:20 189s are better suited for med to dark roasts and produce a more traditional espresso shot
@ LOL - sorry I loeft the wrong timestamps in my last comment because you left the exact same comment on several of my videos featuring the philos.
I stand by my comments in this video. i200d - higher clarity, suitable for all around use, i189, more focus on traditional espresso - and yes, that would include darker roasts.
I expand on the roast level compatibility in the *other* video you left this comment on.
ruclips.net/video/UuU2olgbPGA/видео.htmlsi=agxVLHqWfaY-8pKp&t=561
too many filler words, didn't understand the difference and didn't find it straightforward.
I wouldn't own a Zerno product if it were free. I'm definitely buying the Mazzer.
Why?
@johnnyshine09 I won't knowingly support a company that advocates for sinful behaviors.
@@phraktlcan you give us a little info, even if you don't have time to fully elaborate? I'm unaware of where to even start to figure out what you're referencing. Thank you.
@@NoZenith my comment was deleted, so I'll try again. You needn't look any further than the invitation page to their Discord.
@phraktl thank you! 🤗