1. Statistics don't matter when you're determining how unhealthy a card is for the game. Level eater didn't win a ycs, neither did Grinder Golem or Utopic Zexal. The fact that the card is hated by the majority of players and actively discourages people from interacting with their opponent is more than enough for it to be banned. 2. Deckbuilding HAS to adapt around the card, resulting in less results over time because people build around it. This is why Maxx "C" in master duel sucks, because you've got every single deck on 2 called by, 3 ash blossom, and crossout just to stop Maxx "C". Cards that literally warp entire formats are called "PROBLEMS". Cards like Drident in zoo format were good examples of how cards can impact a format (caused people to play my body as a shield, pianissimo, etc) but didn't cause every single player to say "if I don't have an out to [x] card, I just auto lose the game". In short, there are no pros to mystic mine. Only cons.
I was just about to say something similar. Just because a card doesn't have high wins doesn't mean it is not meta warping. Pokemon Showdown has a similar idea behind banning. It's not necessarily the best sweepers, the best wallbreakers or the best stall pokemon that need to be banned, it's Mons with little or specific counterplay that need to go, because they change the game around them, and FORCE teams to run counters. Which is exactly what Mine has done, change decks to dedicate slots to battling Mine as a card.
I would also add that the db stats are ass because there is a billion of people that run dogshit decks or even non-mine decks simply because they don't want to get it with every ratial slurs immaginable
@@TsuikeNovaus if you can explain why ocg still have maxx c, the literal definition of meta wrapping, then you can explain why mine is at 3. Go ahead. I'll make it easy for you. Every single deck ever exist in the ocg has this at 3 along with 8 other cards that disable it. But konami limits the card that counters it instead
@@hahalerymc6878 I...don't think we were arguing for or against Mystic Mine's banning. What we were saying was, the reasoning that Mystic Mine shouldn't be banned because it isn't winning games above a certain percentage is faulty. Now, Mystic Mine is going to continue to have a negative impact on the game, which I believe we all can agree on.
1st day at my new locals after switching I walked In and played 2 mystic mine players, if I wasn’t prepared and had played against it at my old locals I probably would have never come back, it’s such a terrible feeling to literally be unable to play.
@@sun332s7 When Eldlich was more common in Master Duels and sometimes True Draco, i literally run 2 Royal Decree just so when they flip" haha floodgate" i just "Ah ha! I floodgate your Floodgates!" just so i'm not dead because they flip Skill Drain, Imperial Order, Summon Limit and every other floodgate Eldlich can play.
I think that it doesn't matter unless the card is good and heavily played. It doesn't matter how much a card doesn't let you play if the card is actually not good.
Don't most cards and decks now try to prevent others from playing? Milling out hand traps, summoning cards like Natural beast or Apollousa for example (And there are a LOT of examples) and disruptions left and right? Also I wish they defined what 'fun' is cause all they said was mine isn't fun. And technically people would be forced to play mine if the boards that were set up now didn't so easily set up all the negates they do now. Perhaps these players need to not complain that Mine isn't banned, but ask themselves why it still hasn't been banned... Maybe Combo players are the toxic ones but they just don't see it
Mine is a strange card in that, the weaker mine is, the stronger it is. Like if its a big threat, everyone is playing an out. But if noone is playing mine, less people play outs, and then suddenly its a really good card
i am sure there are other cards like this but mine is the perfect example of a powerful suprise card. its strong in raw strength but can't handle hate well so its good when its splashed in anouther deck thats already good or used out of the blue before its get the attention meta decks get.
I think a large reason for time cards being good is that the best decks can play around most typically good side board options. Going second into tear, outside of dshifter there's basically nothing that will be all that much better than just another combo piece. For this reason side decks have enough space for go first traps and then some, hence the move towards time cards which serve a unique role.
They are cards which either give you life points or damage the opponent so that when the match's time limit is over the player with the higher life points (the one with the time card) wins
the problem with mystic mine is it is a double floodgate and only pops itself in the end phase so you either draw the out or try to make your field smaller to out it by its own eff then they can just kill you on their turn. If it was just no attack popping it would be easy. If it were just monster negate then just big bungus beatdown but the fact it does both is insane and why it should be banned if for nothing just to stop time shenanigans. I have won in time and it feels so dirty instead of playing it out and getting a real winner
@@archaonwalde8993 just draw the out Pray for your opponent not having a negate to the out set in the field Have outs enough because... You know... There's more 2 copies of it and demise exists Just that...
To be fair the win con thing has more to do with time rules. Also the whole shouldn't be forced to play a certain way goes both ways, you're forced to main deck hand traps to not instantly die turn 1, you're forced to main deck turn 2 cards if you go second to not lose, most of which are also unsearchable. The difference is in the options department, there are way more ways to do one than the other and it is also why its ok, all decks need some generic out when everything uses the same generic out that's when we got issues. I'm not advocating for mine, but when even with it the format is still 60%+ combo and slightly less combo it makes it harder for me to actually care. Backrow heavy decks need to slow the game down in order to be playable. While mine is searchable most backrow floodgates aren't cause generic backrow support is still in goat levels, draw cards and recovering it from the grave. Just compare something like wind statue or hell even VFD before it got banned in MD, how easy and consistent is to get those out in comparison to something like a skill drain that you have to draw or bust. Negates interruption and anything traps do that monsters also do is the same. On top of doubling out as bodies. One is simply 10 times better than the other. This is not ok, this isn't oh its modern yu gi oh so its fine, this is a game issue that needs to be resolved. Either you give it more support to catch up, you nerf your powercreep down which they can't or you do some master rule revision. Either way till any of these happen floodgates will never be completely removed from the game.
So the way I see it: very non specific floodgates are unfair gameplaywise, but especially mentally. Player one draws floodgate, sets floodgate, flips floodgate. He now only has to take care to flip the solemn for the out. Meanwhile the opponent sees the floodgate and is forced to 1) make sure he stays mentally composed after the scare 2) start formulating an outside the box plan to try and out the floodgate. It’s not fair that my opponent is playing memory while forcing me to play 4d chess. Because here’s the thing: mostly there’s a way out of the floodgate, if you‘ve built your deck correctly, but it‘s not one that guarantees you your win, nor one that guarantees that you‘ll stay mentally fit for the matches that are to come. So overall, Not fun. I don’t mind easier/harder decks, because that’s the fun of it for many people. I do mind mechanics that turn the game into a theoretical physics final for the opponent, and I‘m not sure proof through induction helps you outta there.
well unfortunately for you. nothing is more fun to me than flipping trap cards, so im sorry you dont enjoy it. But the thing about games is that everyone likes a different thing, and its important to remember everyone playing is also trying to win through their preferred play styles. just a bit of context, ur way isn't the only way
Floodgate players should be forced to think too at this point. Put some restrictions, activation conditions, or maintenance costs, that actually matter
@@paulnorrange9217 Hey, no need to be an asshole. I never intended to impose anything on anyone or imply that players who flip floodgates are - whatever you think I feel about you. Who do you take me for? My grudge is with the action of flipping the floodgate and how it warps the game in a way that I -let me repeat- I deem unhealthy. It's got nothing to do with liking/disliking the playstyle of stun or it's players. I'm usually really lucky and draw my outs but the times I don't do so directly, I end up exhausted in a bad way, and that's because my opponent flipped one generic floodgate. You know, I don't mind getting scythed or being made to skip a turn, at least my gameplan is simple: set 2 pass. I love flipping traps aswell, atm I'm trying to try and build Labrynth. However, trap.deck and floodgate.deck, while very similar, are not the same are they?
Konami: We’ve heard the recent outcry in balance against a certain card, so we’re taking Mystic Mine down to 2. We’re also bringing terraforming back to 3 :P
when i look at mine i just see dark ruler 2 electric bugaloo. i play it simply to slap down at the start of the turn combo under it because marincess doesn't need to activate monster effects while you have 2 or more monsters on field and then slap my field spell over it and now i have a 4k towers. when we go back into a format where the top decks aren't immune to handtraps anymore i'll play them instead but as of now i see mine just as the 7th, 8th and 9th copy of dark ruler.
I think mine dropped in representation recently because everyone, with all due respect, was prepared for it. Also the most represented deck playing eradicator main doesn't help it's case or any spell deck's case, that's probably the main reason why branded, striker, invoked and even altergeist mystic mine can't consistently top, besides anti spell actually seeing play ofc Around the time ycs hartford happened the only deck that had a native out to mine was adventurer punk, which kinda explains why 3/4 in top 4 were on mine and the guy who wasn't finished 4th, same for pote and spright, mine is like scythe in that sense as it mostly has success in the early stages of the format until people prepare for it or discover something better But a card that warps deckbuilding should probably be banned, the reason why it's win rate is so low is because everyone is overly prepared for it, there are no backrow decks outside of like branded eldlich rn, which isn't an incredibly powerful deck, it's just worse branded despia that doesn't lose to eradicator, and yet people are still packing tons of backrow removal In theory this could help the top decks remain at the top since instead of playing real side deck options, we're forced to play like 3 cosmic and like hfd/twin twister etc, although this hasn't happened so far
I went to a locals for the first time since like… PK fire was good, played against striker mine in the last round and it was the most miserable match of my life. Game one I just wasn’t allowed to clear my own board to let it expire, game 2 I was able to get rid of it but had to fight and fight to get there. Game 3 I got to lose to him gaining 100 life in time, so yeah not a positive experience dealing with it so far.
Regarding the YCS Rio, I think Konami as well doesn't regard LATAM events that well. It's funny to think that YCS Rio was smaller than the Brazilian Nationals that happened around a couple of months earlier, with a bunch of people not being able to join the Nationals as well :v
I'm from Asia and most of my online peers are OCG players,. they're literally shitting on how bad TCG have become. I haven't played for months but played again after the introduction of Master Duel. Like seriously, I tried playing on TCG again and got that shitty experience,.dude just play Dark Ruler and activated Mine just to won the game.
@@dhanyl2725 while I despise maxx C with whole of my heart, Mine is 100x worse than it. like, if I could exchange maxx c for mine I'd choose to do so. you have the option to play or risking it in maxx c and it actually gatekeeps shits like adamancipators or piledeck better. yes, it sucks to get cockroache-d but at least you are not facing a complete stop of a gamestate. hell, it's easier to face maxx c because your "out" to maxx c(ash, CBTG, droll,, etc) is already playable even without the need to warp you deck into 12 S/T removal that can be solemn-edsolemn-ed or c*cked by protections. of course the ideal world would be both maxx C and mine banned lol.
Thank you for the statistics I can now use them when people bitch about mine. Also mine has many counters. My personal favorite is Curse Seal of the Forbidden Spell
Mine doesn’t let anyone attack,it basically is only intended as a pause button,that’s the difference,it practically forces the game into a state of one player winning through deck out
Every *good* floodgate gets this hate. No one hates Swords of Revealing Light because it sucks. People dont hate Summon Breaker because it sucks. But you know what people do hate? Summon Limit, Skill Drain, Imperial Order, Anti-Spell Fragrance.
I mean if fun plays into it we should really discuss how unfun it is to watch your opponent play solitaire for 20 min to end on 6 Omni negates. Which is essentially them having a better mystic mine. Just play hand traps and just play around mine sound very similar to me.
Honestly, I find myself arguing against the Cons. Winning in time, adapting to the rules is something I appreciate as it's looking at them and working within their confines, using them to your advantage. "It's not fun" is too subjective to be a point of evidence. And lastly, arguing that people aren't building well enough at the start of a format to deal with it is... just ludicrous to me. That's like arguing that your opponent shouldn't play Falco because you don't knhow how to stop them juggling you between Shine and DAir. If you can't learn or prepare for the matchup, you SHOULD be losing.
A 47% isnt bad, that's a fucking coin flip (which is pretty impressive for a zero skill card). And thats just talking about decks that SIDE mystic mine. Veiler and Ash are (generally) considered to be much more fair cards because despite how busted they are, its generally accepted that they're good for disrupting choke points in combos and should stay for that reason. There's skill in recognizing when to resolve those cards, or when to hold them if you can tell that ashing or veilering your opponent's combo at that moment would be a waste. Also, what exactly is the "meta call" for siding Mine? Is it when you want to be a dick? The only thing stopping people from always maining Mine is because it gets the most out of a meta when people start to sleep on it because of other cards that people have rotated into their side decks. This isnt like Non-Fusion Area where the only reason its played is because the best deck is a fusion deck, you can play Mine in so many situations. The way you describe it, it seems that people play it in times of uncertainty because its a very safe card. I say that's why we banned Verte. I'd rather be locked under Winda or Barrier Statue, its that painful and I regret ever advocating for the card. The only reason I did was because i was salty that Droplet was so expensive, but its literally a 20 dollar card now (and I can only pray we get even cheaper reprints). We can ban Mine now, shits finally somewhat stable.
When I look at how Yugioh is played now with its accelerated pace, emphasis on monster effects, special summons, combos, etc... on the surface, having a card like Mystic Mine around just seems weird and counter intuitive to how Konami designs their newer cards. It would be as if Royal Oppression were unbanned all of a sudden.
NOT A MINE APOLOGIST: but, I do think there is a point to say that mine isn’t the only floodgates and I would even argue isn’t even the worst Rivalry Gozen TCBOO Skill drain all have unfair levels of synergy with strategies generically that Mystic Mine really doesn’t have monsters like Dweller and Artifact Scythe both continue for the rest of the turn making then lingering… Hell Lancea, droll and Shifter are handtraps… while I do agree Mystic Mine SHOULD be banned, saying thats the only thing wrong with competetive Yu-Gi-Oh at the moment is just wrong since the problems CURRENTLY stem from the banlist system being non-transparent and ineffective, if the banlist is about balancing the metagame… then why wasn’t Tearlaments hit directly? if the banlist is about making the game fun/fair, then why aren’t floodgates and floodgate decks like Floowandareeze not getting hit? If the Banlist is about what the players want then why isn’t mine banned yet? Some argue that it’s because they want to sell new product and it seems that Konami TCG does not ban cards, or rather too heavily nerf decks the first banlist they come out… this is actually true when you look at every card released in modern history. HOWEVER this gets confusing when you see that the team that makes the banlist obviously are Bias, since if it was only about selling cards they would have banned Mine to appease players… but obviously there are bias on what can and cannot exist. an in archtype boss monster that stops the opponent from searching is banned… but a similarly easy monster to summon that locks both players into only ss winds is not even a serious consideration? banning Red Reboot so I can stop myself from losing to d barrier, sanctum, ddg is banned. BUT we get floodgates like Spellbook of Judgement off the banlist..?
I mean, rivalry, gozen, even skill drain and tcboo to some degree, all leave room for player skill to matter on top of "just draw the out lol". Tcboo being probably the most obnoxious. The handtraps may feel terrible but can also be played around if you know they might come up. Even d barrier isnt all-powerful, being the turn skip that it essentially is. All of these are a pain, yes, but the side deck exists for a reason. Mine on the other hand requires a completely different approach to the game and outing it is necessary since you essentially cannot play under it at all. It drags out games into time where skill could have clearly mattered but didnt since the out wasnt drawn within 30 turns of passing. Where like i said, you dont even always _need_ to out the other big floodgates. Floo searching the statue during their standard setup is annoying yea. One droplet, drnm, even imperm or chalice, outs it, and floo probably wont have a negate since they are already bricky af and probably cant afford shit like extra traps and their usual end board relies on stun, with maybe a singular negate in avian. I still do hope for the statue getting a treatment like protos for swordsoul, being a super searchable floodgate turn 1. All in all, you got some valid points but these i felt a need to disagree
The video can be summarized in: mine needs to be banned for the unhealthy scenarios it creates in a tournament environment and for how much it conditionates the deck building process. Thank you Jesse, but even if I play a copy of eradicator, multiple smashers etc nothing saves me from my runick mine opponent banishing them.
@@dhanyl2725 you'll get used to it. Jk, on actual reason ocg player mostly accept maxx c is due to it's out are usable againts any other card whether againts meta or non meta, unlike mine out whose useless againts most non-mine meta deck.
Imo Mystic Mine needs to be at 3 until it irreparably contorts the game and the way people play it around its existence FOREVER kinda like "Gorz Order" and Mirror Force (running spelltrap spelltrap destruction is normalized as is less monster reliance) Unless they also ban all generic toolbox negates and "offensive" handtraps then throw it out with them
Is your deck bad? You want to win with a mediocre deck? Mystic Mine and other floodgates are your friends! Make sure to include solemn judgements so even if the opponent is prepared and draws the out they can't play.
See I hated Mine for the reason that people shouldn't have to build around singular cards within a format. But I've kind of grown to feel that in monster heavy formats Mine is what it is. If you're trying to burn and win off its back then that's kinda degenerate but unfortunately there's no rule of how people play cards that are legal, same with the dumb eradicator Tear nonsense. As it stands I see mine as another board breaker just like dark ruler is, only it takes a little more skill not to screw yourself over with it. Like we didn't see swordsoul players popping up with it in their decks because they were planning to stall with it, they had it because they can't fight off established boards very well. We see people maining cards like DRNM now, like gee I wonder if maybe some of the issue is that it's obnoxious trying to fight through decks now. And yet, and yet, we don't really see many people advocating ruler to be banned, maybe because the tcg made cards like nibiru and DRNM exactly for more problematic formats and these blowout cards are doing exactly what they were designed to do. These are the ones who put super poly to 3 and then made Garura. And then people like surprised Pikachu when they hit Appointer but not any of the actual blowouts sans reboot. I get it comes off as an annoying card but I genuinely think it comes down to usage and player deck how annoying it'll be. If you have an immediate out then you're probably winning, because the fact is no one is playing mine when they're in any kind of immediate winning position. There have been times I've gone against Mine and chose to hold off when I had an out in favor of just waiting until I had an otk available, and it works. Yes it slows things temporarily, but regardless of who's field it's on I think you can sometimes find a way to use it to your advantage if you're clever.
While Mine can be used be used to break boards, we have to be honest with ourselves with how many decks actually use it as such. Beyond Swordsoul, I can't really think of any decks. DRNM is much more preferable to Mine because it's not lingering, and it ensures that you don't lose that turn. You at least get to play the game on your turn. In addition, DRNM is solidly a going second card. With Demise of Lands and Metaverse, it can transform Mine into a going first card as well. Just wait for your opponent to summon more monsters than you or wait until they clear your monsters before flipping. I appreciate your anecdote about waiting under mine strategically, its something a lot of impatient players don't consider, but I don't think you've considered the other side of the coin. You could be under mine with an out in hand, waiting for the OTK opportunity, but as you're awaiting to gather more resources, so is your opponent. They could easily draw into multiple ways to protect that Mine or set up a second. Consider things like Solemn Judgement, Dark Bribe, Demise of Lands, and Metaverse. The Runick archetype comes to mind: Hugin gives inherent protection to mine as a passive effect. The argument could be made to wait until you have multiple outs, something that Joseph Giorlando had advised. Also consider that Runicks can mill away your multiple outs to Mine. Now we're adding on multiple conditions to combat a single card: you have to have an out, then wait for multiple outs, also make sure you have OTK, while also somehow not getting blown out while you're waiting. Why is the onus on the person under Mine? Is it not enough punishment to already be locked out of monster effects and attacking? Meanwhile the user of Mine can just sit on it.
@@SouBU95 Dai who topped with Exosister said he used mine as extra copies of Ruler himself but that it didn't come up a ton. People would play it in Spright from time to time also. I think you'll find a lot of the mid range combo decks have been playing it so they can do their normal shenanigans. It's not worth praying it's going to sit around indefinitely. As I specifically said "unfortunately there's no rule as to HOW decks use any specific card" but you probably aren't going to be seeing Mine as a win con with burn like at that LATAM ycs to the same degree as Europe or NA. I can think of one time I used it as a win con and it was because my opponent playing Tear had 2 cards left in deck after using desires twice and it was easier to say "I know you don't have an out left" while at the same time "I'm not the one who told you to burn through 20 cards." Also Runick is annoying yes, crazy how a deck that doesn't play by conventional deck standards could be such, but again, there's no rule as to how decks use specific cards. We could go on all the live long day pointing out every archetype in the game saying "well it's not fair that X deck uses it in this way that is more degenerate" but then it starts sounding closer to the argument people have had with generic boss monsters. Like "that's not fair, why does borrel savage see more play in random good stuff decks than pure rokket?" Idk maybe because the card is great but it's not GOOD ENOUGH to hold a strategy together on its own in this day and age, that's where I feel Mine is right now.
The card is unhealthy because of how absolutely free it is It requires nothing out of you There’s no cost It doesn’t even really take up a zone on the board And it purposely says flat out, no yugioh at all And I’m sorry but the counterpoint of “Oh just draw the out lol” is not a valid one because none of those outs are searchable so by the time most people do have the out You have already set up defense for it in either a field barrier or solemn judgement A quarter of my entire deck should not be dedicated to one card End of story Mine sucks!
The cost to playing mine is for the most part you can't advance your own game state under it either, unless you play geist, but that deck is bullshit for a lot of reasons. A lot of times mine ends up being either you deck them out or they out it and otk you the same turn. Either you win or lose by it. High risk high reward. Its a pretty skill expressive card because players have to play in a way that they win once an out is seen, for both sides.
@@shawnjavery the issue with your comment is that most decks that rely on mine dont care about their own gamestate, they just want to win via bullshit. Maybe put 1 or 2 monsters on board, making sure they have less at all times, which yea not everyone does right but that doesnt really make it skillful to use well, just says a lot about the lack of intelligence for players who dont use it properly. Many of the decks dont even care for their monsters effects, just the body and name. They also seem to really like running a bunch of board breakers specifically to put down a mine and lock down the game, with a few extra floodgates that are super obnoxious for good measure. Dont get me wrong, i would like to agree with your argument since it sounds right, but in practice i dont think it holds up
I'd rather see the roach released than have to deal with Mine. At least Maxx C puts can also work with other prevalent cards, Mine outs work only exactly against it and backrow
At least Mystic Mine protected me from an already full Kshatri-La board. I understand the hate but when it comes to those kinds of situations, Any help is welcomed.
obviously mystic mine should not be banned because of it being toxic and unfun but because the 6 superheavy samurai players in the world cannot play an out in their deck without ruining their whole archetype/deck afterwards
Do I think mystic mine should be banned? Yes Do I think it should have been banned last banlist (accounting for the other hits)? No, not yet The reason is very simple, it helps lots and lots of decks handle tear and other matchups that'd otherwise be unbearable, and I think that at this point we unironically have adapted to playing around it. If next banlist tear gets shit on (through banning the ishizu cards or in engine cards), you can ban both mine and shifter, which functionally both are there just to try and check tear as a deck
Ok, lets go threw the points... Data: Just looking at data and making decicions based on that without any actual context is known to be a bad idea, but you still did it. 1. How cares about the sidedeck rep of the card. I wanna know how many maindecks it plagues, because thats where its actually played by most people. 2. The top lists on db, are obtimised to win games quickly, because thats how you grind points the fastest. If you take 60 minutes to minestal your opponent to death, you are not grinding points quickly enough to be this high up, even if your deck has the higher winrate. 3. Never look at random winrate stats because they practically never tell you anything. Example: In dead by daylight the best killer in the game (nurse) has the lowest winrate of all, because shes hard to play and a bunch of noobs play her incorrectly. Not saying this is what happens with mine, but its an example for a broken thing with a low winrate. Also considering that beginners/worse players tend to gravitate to floodgates, its not highly unlikely. (Especially because the very good players tend to not include it, because its too slow. 5. 17% topcut rep means that about every 5th player is on that card. In a meta with runick and everyone being prepared for it, thats a pretty high number. Yes, ash is higher in terms of numbers, but people dont play cards specifically to counter exactly ash blossom. Events mine had success in: What about all the other events? What about the na championship with both finalists having 3 mine in their maindeck? What about the exosister list that recently won niagra falls? It also maindecked mine. You specifically named the german nats. In that event the second place list was on mystic mine in the maindeck. Why did that work? Also going back to context. Yes, ycs rio was pretty small, but it is still an absolute joke, that a random guy with his random fundeck can run through an entire tournament by just playing mine, even if the event only has hundreds of players. People building their decks around it: Yes, people activly have to build their decks to counter mystic mine. Tell me that stats on how many people enjoy having to do that, because you like statistics so much. Dont think i can/have to argue against the cons. They are obviouslly stronger points.
It's just not that good. Realistically it's not staying on the field. When you listen to the people who topped with it, and think about the context of the tops, it's format based at best
Floo is Mystic Mine the Archetype; But the impact comes down to opinion. If you like trying to play, but just ending up feeling useless, Floo is worse. If you rather lose unless you draw a specific thing, and would rather at least try fruitlessly, Mine is worse.
I think it's healthy. think about it all rogue decks in one way or another are playing a floodgate all banning mine accomplish is the realization konami doesn't want budget players. because as soon as mine is banned the meta players will target rivalry, gozen, there can on be one, summon limit, skill drain until all are gone which doesn't promote fairness because rogue players still have to play dark ruler or drolpet to even play against a meta deck which isn't balanced to begin with why should rogue have to adapt to play to out but the meta gets an exemption. think about it nibiru was designed to counter combo decks since then they have made a bunch of combo decks that don't care about nibiru
except mystic mine is way worse than any of those other floodgates. if you defend with the rogue player take you are jeopardizing the health of this game
This dumb "my unfair floodgate is fine because you spent your entire hand building a board of interruptions" argument gets thrown around a lot by salty rogue players that refuse to just build their deck better or play better cards. Like I'm sorry dude, setting batteryman micro cell and passing just ain't gonna cut it nowadays
I hear you, however, we have to realize that cards are not played in a vacuum. Cards that increase Rogue playability are not limited to being used solely vs Meta, nor are they limited to being included in only Rogue decks. Floodgates hurt the play of all decks, not just the best ones. Most Rogue decks today were once considered the Meta, the fact that they are now worse then the current Meta decks literally has to happen for the game to continue as a game. The new decks are made better than the old decks on PURPOSE and thus older decks will struggle to win. These decks being worse than others is not a good excuse for cards to exist that prevent entire game mechanics. Finally the cards that are played as the outs to the Meta are played in every deck that wants to compete, meaning that even the Meta decks have to "just draw the out" to the other Meta decks, its not something only Rogue has to do to compete. I understand that what you're really saying is that Mine and other Floodgate outs are cheaper/easier to use as a crutch for older decks, and it isn't wrong to want those things, but what we should be asking for is more reprints of highly useful cards, better designed floodgates (ones that cause difficulties but don't straight shut the game to a standstill), and more sets that boost older archetypes (such as Konami's recent structure deck series), rather than trying to defend poorly designed cards that currently fit a budget.
The "glorified solitaire" is just as grindy as oldschool if not more so, what are you even trying to say there Whereas mine is just both players passing for 50 turns in a row and discarding for hand size until one either decks out or draws into a removal spell which probably will be solemn'd anyway by that point
watching the cons portion you're not really convincing me its a bad thing. Mine is only good at the start of said format until the game warps itself naturally. So honestly its fine as long as it isn't hurting the format which it doesn't.
Yeah, just play 17 removals vs Runick/Burn to get ~50% to get success to remove Mystic Mine. If you dont play 17 removal with different names you are just too lazy.
Cry hardery Zhang. I’m sure Konami will listen to you on Stevie comment Imagine thinking you cant win with just 3 cosmic. I would love to see you bring runick mine to a tourament and dont get immidiately blown out by LS or evenly
All floodgates should be unbanned completely. Get off this consistency fetish the game is in and play some damn answers that aren't combo into an unbreakable board. I haven't seen a real fucking Aggro deck since Krawlers or Fur Hire and if i try to play a Control deck all I hear is bitching the game went past turn 3 and I didn't play "fair" by handtrapping 6 times.
1. Floodgates are fun to play because to have a variety of cards that do different things in the game increases deck building variations = fun duels. Yes, its bad when you have multiple of them activated, but if you builded your deck with outs, #main-sidedeck, you'll be having a balanced Yu-Gi-Oh experience (can't win them all). The best deck is the most balanced and Yu-Gi-Oh provides a gameplay were you can build a deck that can defend against anything your opponent does IF you put the cards in. 2. (I will infer with this one) Why in hell old strategies, archetypes can't be played because "they're not represented as a whole"? For example (regardless if this combination works or not), why Toons can't be seen dueling in present tournaments using cards like Mystic Mine to increase its effectiveness? Like, for example, are you only allowed to use new or current Tier 1 decks in order to play in tournaments because other players have invested stupid amounts of money in new cards? WA DA HEL, DUD?! 3. What kind of game do you want? A game which only certain players can go to locals and tournaments because they broke their pockets in expensive + new cards + new decks = new format? If I understood his explanation well... That's 🤮🤮🤮! 4. Holy crap! He's worried about Konami's multi-millionaire pockets!? 🙈🙈🙈
Called by handles maxx c, ash blossom handles maxx c, crossout handles maxx c, silent graveyard handles maxx c. I can keep going and all those ALSO stop other cards that are far more important than backrow. Mine is literally draw the backrow removal just to get solemn judgemented.
@@Lucifer_isthereal_god name me a single one of those card that is archtype searchable. You make the dumbest argument to mine while saying that exact shit to maxx c that I said in the original comment. Maybe open your eyes next time. Also fyi, mine is literally the reason we don't get a tier 0 format in the tcg. Ocg got 2 tier 0 format in a single banlist season and both involves searching the dumbass insect. Mine is infinitely healthier than maxx C. Don't spew shit like this without playing the actual format yourself. It's fucking laughable a melffys player has the most dogwater take on all of youtube, even worse than Farfa 4 years ago
Maxx C: Called by the Grave, Ash, Droll Lock Bird and Crossout. Mystic Mine: Eradicator Epidemic Virus I played with Runick this 2 weeks, only that card worked agaisnt me, not even Spell Canceller worked
@@zhang1750 name me a single card that is archtype searchable from those you listed that counter maxx C. Actual hypocrite by not reading my orginal comment. “ oh just draw the 5 out i listed or you lose your turn” Also great job being counter productive by not listing 5 billion backrow removal you can run, but you act like me going first means I dont have anything to deal with you. My Tearlaments deck eat runick alive, and with earth fairy engine coming over, Mystic mine will falls into obscurity again. What are you gonna do, cry about necrovalley next? Oh and guess what? Maxx C is searchable in both Tear Fairy and full power Spright while doing their normal combo. I didnt know they can also add Mystic mine from deck to hand. Must be because you are good at the game
1. Statistics don't matter when you're determining how unhealthy a card is for the game. Level eater didn't win a ycs, neither did Grinder Golem or Utopic Zexal. The fact that the card is hated by the majority of players and actively discourages people from interacting with their opponent is more than enough for it to be banned.
2. Deckbuilding HAS to adapt around the card, resulting in less results over time because people build around it. This is why Maxx "C" in master duel sucks, because you've got every single deck on 2 called by, 3 ash blossom, and crossout just to stop Maxx "C". Cards that literally warp entire formats are called "PROBLEMS". Cards like Drident in zoo format were good examples of how cards can impact a format (caused people to play my body as a shield, pianissimo, etc) but didn't cause every single player to say "if I don't have an out to [x] card, I just auto lose the game".
In short, there are no pros to mystic mine. Only cons.
I was just about to say something similar. Just because a card doesn't have high wins doesn't mean it is not meta warping. Pokemon Showdown has a similar idea behind banning.
It's not necessarily the best sweepers, the best wallbreakers or the best stall pokemon that need to be banned, it's Mons with little or specific counterplay that need to go, because they change the game around them, and FORCE teams to run counters. Which is exactly what Mine has done, change decks to dedicate slots to battling Mine as a card.
I would also add that the db stats are ass because there is a billion of people that run dogshit decks or even non-mine decks simply because they don't want to get it with every ratial slurs immaginable
@@TsuikeNovaus if you can explain why ocg still have maxx c, the literal definition of meta wrapping, then you can explain why mine is at 3. Go ahead. I'll make it easy for you. Every single deck ever exist in the ocg has this at 3 along with 8 other cards that disable it. But konami limits the card that counters it instead
@@hahalerymc6878 I...don't think we were arguing for or against Mystic Mine's banning. What we were saying was, the reasoning that Mystic Mine shouldn't be banned because it isn't winning games above a certain percentage is faulty. Now, Mystic Mine is going to continue to have a negative impact on the game, which I believe we all can agree on.
1st day at my new locals after switching I walked In and played 2 mystic mine players, if I wasn’t prepared and had played against it at my old locals I probably would have never come back, it’s such a terrible feeling to literally be unable to play.
Not even the first this has been a thing.
The best way to win a game of YGO is make sure your opponent can’t play
@@sun332s7 When Eldlich was more common in Master Duels and sometimes True Draco, i literally run 2 Royal Decree just so when they flip" haha floodgate" i just "Ah ha! I floodgate your Floodgates!" just so i'm not dead because they flip Skill Drain, Imperial Order, Summon Limit and every other floodgate Eldlich can play.
Playing mine at locals should guarantee that they get their ass beat outside after so they don’t come back.
In a game that most actually like to play, a card that basically reads "don't play the game" is unhealthy.
However I see the point made.
Isnt that just almost every card today?
@@panchotz100 saying no to an opponents effect is one thing.
Saying no to the game entirely is another.
Mine does EXACTLY THAT.
I think that it doesn't matter unless the card is good and heavily played. It doesn't matter how much a card doesn't let you play if the card is actually not good.
Don't most cards and decks now try to prevent others from playing? Milling out hand traps, summoning cards like Natural beast or Apollousa for example (And there are a LOT of examples) and disruptions left and right? Also I wish they defined what 'fun' is cause all they said was mine isn't fun. And technically people would be forced to play mine if the boards that were set up now didn't so easily set up all the negates they do now.
Perhaps these players need to not complain that Mine isn't banned, but ask themselves why it still hasn't been banned... Maybe Combo players are the toxic ones but they just don't see it
@@Topbeehler I point you to my above reply to Zeraph it pretty well sums up my reply to yours.
Genuinely enjoy the Smarter with Stevie vids, you bring up a lot of fun points and stats for consideration.
TLDR; First 45 seconds of the video are all you need to see 💯
Mine is a strange card in that, the weaker mine is, the stronger it is. Like if its a big threat, everyone is playing an out. But if noone is playing mine, less people play outs, and then suddenly its a really good card
i am sure there are other cards like this but mine is the perfect example of a powerful suprise card. its strong in raw strength but can't handle hate well so its good when its splashed in anouther deck thats already good or used out of the blue before its get the attention meta decks get.
Mystic mine should last only til the end of opponent's end phase after activation (so it lasts only 1 turn if activated during opp's turn)
I think a large reason for time cards being good is that the best decks can play around most typically good side board options. Going second into tear, outside of dshifter there's basically nothing that will be all that much better than just another combo piece. For this reason side decks have enough space for go first traps and then some, hence the move towards time cards which serve a unique role.
What's a time card?
They are cards which either give you life points or damage the opponent so that when the match's time limit is over the player with the higher life points (the one with the time card) wins
@@valonyaver600 thanks
Tear also struggles against nib, and depending on the hand even ash/veiler/imperm/dd crow can be devestating
How does a card that forces you to run specific outs increase variety of deck building?
I think the biggest issue with the card is that it's at more than 1 along with being able to activate it on your opponent's turn
Mystic Mine is the mine that sets up the Wendigo storyline in Until Dawn
So it's equally shit because the other half of the story is just a super bad prank
the problem with mystic mine is it is a double floodgate and only pops itself in the end phase so you either draw the out or try to make your field smaller to out it by its own eff then they can just kill you on their turn. If it was just no attack popping it would be easy. If it were just monster negate then just big bungus beatdown but the fact it does both is insane and why it should be banned if for nothing just to stop time shenanigans. I have won in time and it feels so dirty instead of playing it out and getting a real winner
just draw the out very simepl
@@archaonwalde8993
just draw the out
Pray for your opponent not having a negate to the out set in the field
Have outs enough because... You know... There's more 2 copies of it and demise exists
Just that...
Haha. Anyway, activate ojama trio?
@@lucasemanuel5146 demise is so annoying just when you think you outed it then demise brings it back
To be fair the win con thing has more to do with time rules. Also the whole shouldn't be forced to play a certain way goes both ways, you're forced to main deck hand traps to not instantly die turn 1, you're forced to main deck turn 2 cards if you go second to not lose, most of which are also unsearchable. The difference is in the options department, there are way more ways to do one than the other and it is also why its ok, all decks need some generic out when everything uses the same generic out that's when we got issues.
I'm not advocating for mine, but when even with it the format is still 60%+ combo and slightly less combo it makes it harder for me to actually care. Backrow heavy decks need to slow the game down in order to be playable. While mine is searchable most backrow floodgates aren't cause generic backrow support is still in goat levels, draw cards and recovering it from the grave.
Just compare something like wind statue or hell even VFD before it got banned in MD, how easy and consistent is to get those out in comparison to something like a skill drain that you have to draw or bust. Negates interruption and anything traps do that monsters also do is the same. On top of doubling out as bodies.
One is simply 10 times better than the other. This is not ok, this isn't oh its modern yu gi oh so its fine, this is a game issue that needs to be resolved. Either you give it more support to catch up, you nerf your powercreep down which they can't or you do some master rule revision. Either way till any of these happen floodgates will never be completely removed from the game.
So the way I see it: very non specific floodgates are unfair gameplaywise, but especially mentally. Player one draws floodgate, sets floodgate, flips floodgate. He now only has to take care to flip the solemn for the out. Meanwhile the opponent sees the floodgate and is forced to 1) make sure he stays mentally composed after the scare 2) start formulating an outside the box plan to try and out the floodgate. It’s not fair that my opponent is playing memory while forcing me to play 4d chess. Because here’s the thing: mostly there’s a way out of the floodgate, if you‘ve built your deck correctly, but it‘s not one that guarantees you your win, nor one that guarantees that you‘ll stay mentally fit for the matches that are to come. So overall, Not fun. I don’t mind easier/harder decks, because that’s the fun of it for many people. I do mind mechanics that turn the game into a theoretical physics final for the opponent, and I‘m not sure proof through induction helps you outta there.
well unfortunately for you. nothing is more fun to me than flipping trap cards, so im sorry you dont enjoy it. But the thing about games is that everyone likes a different thing, and its important to remember everyone playing is also trying to win through their preferred play styles. just a bit of context, ur way isn't the only way
Floodgate players should be forced to think too at this point. Put some restrictions, activation conditions, or maintenance costs, that actually matter
@@paulnorrange9217 Hey, no need to be an asshole. I never intended to impose anything on anyone or imply that players who flip floodgates are - whatever you think I feel about you. Who do you take me for? My grudge is with the action of flipping the floodgate and how it warps the game in a way that I -let me repeat- I deem unhealthy. It's got nothing to do with liking/disliking the playstyle of stun or it's players. I'm usually really lucky and draw my outs but the times I don't do so directly, I end up exhausted in a bad way, and that's because my opponent flipped one generic floodgate. You know, I don't mind getting scythed or being made to skip a turn, at least my gameplan is simple: set 2 pass. I love flipping traps aswell, atm I'm trying to try and build Labrynth. However, trap.deck and floodgate.deck, while very similar, are not the same are they?
this guy did not just make a love the bomb refference
Konami: We’ve heard the recent outcry in balance against a certain card, so we’re taking Mystic Mine down to 2. We’re also bringing terraforming back to 3 :P
Point 2 of not banning mine really falls apart considering Niagra was topped by a deck running mine. Is the format still unsolved 4 major events in?
The player himself said Mine didn't do much and was used more to bait out negates.
Mine wasnt used at all the entire events with that decklist. You see it pop up once when the guy was majorly winning already with the board state
when i look at mine i just see dark ruler 2 electric bugaloo. i play it simply to slap down at the start of the turn combo under it because marincess doesn't need to activate monster effects while you have 2 or more monsters on field and then slap my field spell over it and now i have a 4k towers. when we go back into a format where the top decks aren't immune to handtraps anymore i'll play them instead but as of now i see mine just as the 7th, 8th and 9th copy of dark ruler.
I think mine dropped in representation recently because everyone, with all due respect, was prepared for it. Also the most represented deck playing eradicator main doesn't help it's case or any spell deck's case, that's probably the main reason why branded, striker, invoked and even altergeist mystic mine can't consistently top, besides anti spell actually seeing play ofc
Around the time ycs hartford happened the only deck that had a native out to mine was adventurer punk, which kinda explains why 3/4 in top 4 were on mine and the guy who wasn't finished 4th, same for pote and spright, mine is like scythe in that sense as it mostly has success in the early stages of the format until people prepare for it or discover something better
But a card that warps deckbuilding should probably be banned, the reason why it's win rate is so low is because everyone is overly prepared for it, there are no backrow decks outside of like branded eldlich rn, which isn't an incredibly powerful deck, it's just worse branded despia that doesn't lose to eradicator, and yet people are still packing tons of backrow removal
In theory this could help the top decks remain at the top since instead of playing real side deck options, we're forced to play like 3 cosmic and like hfd/twin twister etc, although this hasn't happened so far
I went to a locals for the first time since like… PK fire was good, played against striker mine in the last round and it was the most miserable match of my life. Game one I just wasn’t allowed to clear my own board to let it expire, game 2 I was able to get rid of it but had to fight and fight to get there. Game 3 I got to lose to him gaining 100 life in time, so yeah not a positive experience dealing with it so far.
Do this for Maxx C in Master Duel please!
the 47.5 winrate when used seems quite misleading does it count mirrors? it also not counting the side/main deck space dedicated to it
It's also db and not a real life major tournament
Regarding the YCS Rio, I think Konami as well doesn't regard LATAM events that well. It's funny to think that YCS Rio was smaller than the Brazilian Nationals that happened around a couple of months earlier, with a bunch of people not being able to join the Nationals as well :v
I'm from Asia and most of my online peers are OCG players,. they're literally shitting on how bad TCG have become. I haven't played for months but played again after the introduction of Master Duel.
Like seriously, I tried playing on TCG again and got that shitty experience,.dude just play Dark Ruler and activated Mine just to won the game.
Wait how is ocg any different? If anything I'm literally afraid of playing ocg cuz it looks worse than tcg, especially with maxx c around
@@dhanyl2725 it's just the classic tcg/ocg player makes fun of the other mentality, nothing special, we do the same to them with maxx c all the time
@@andrejv.2834 Oh, I thought there's some compelling logic behind it kekw
I guess I'm too naive...
@@dhanyl2725
while I despise maxx C with whole of my heart, Mine is 100x worse than it. like, if I could exchange maxx c for mine I'd choose to do so.
you have the option to play or risking it in maxx c and it actually gatekeeps shits like adamancipators or piledeck better.
yes, it sucks to get cockroache-d but at least you are not facing a complete stop of a gamestate.
hell, it's easier to face maxx c because your "out" to maxx c(ash, CBTG, droll,, etc) is already playable even without the need to warp you deck into 12 S/T removal that can be solemn-edsolemn-ed or c*cked by protections.
of course the ideal world would be both maxx C and mine banned lol.
@@bimaakhmadi9466 Eh, I hate the illusion of choice maxx c provides, at the very least mystic mine is frank in its degeneracy
So how do statistics users explain the pre-emptive banning of cards?
Mistic Mine is just a tier 2 deck that works like a Perfect gatekeeper of a format. I know I sound fucking insane, but this is just true.
Thank you for the statistics I can now use them when people bitch about mine. Also mine has many counters. My personal favorite is Curse Seal of the Forbidden Spell
The win % doesn't mean anything, it's just db
I defend mine because I don't see the same hate given to other floodgates, which are just as miserable and kill my bad rogue deck.
If it still let me attack I'd be okay with it, but it's basically true king the field card
Mine doesn’t let anyone attack,it basically is only intended as a pause button,that’s the difference,it practically forces the game into a state of one player winning through deck out
Every *good* floodgate gets this hate. No one hates Swords of Revealing Light because it sucks. People dont hate Summon Breaker because it sucks. But you know what people do hate? Summon Limit, Skill Drain, Imperial Order, Anti-Spell Fragrance.
Every floodgate gets hate
If DRNM obtained a searcher, I wouldn't mind MM getting banned.
I mean if fun plays into it we should really discuss how unfun it is to watch your opponent play solitaire for 20 min to end on 6 Omni negates. Which is essentially them having a better mystic mine. Just play hand traps and just play around mine sound very similar to me.
Eva got banned in february
No deck makes six omni negates anymore. Can we ban Mine now?
@@SouBU95 hyperbole is a lost art huh?
Honestly, I find myself arguing against the Cons. Winning in time, adapting to the rules is something I appreciate as it's looking at them and working within their confines, using them to your advantage. "It's not fun" is too subjective to be a point of evidence. And lastly, arguing that people aren't building well enough at the start of a format to deal with it is... just ludicrous to me. That's like arguing that your opponent shouldn't play Falco because you don't knhow how to stop them juggling you between Shine and DAir. If you can't learn or prepare for the matchup, you SHOULD be losing.
nice dr. lovegood reference; you ever actually watch that one or just aware of it thru social osmosis? if not imo it's deffo worth a viewing
Dr. strangelove wow idk what my brain did
A 47% isnt bad, that's a fucking coin flip (which is pretty impressive for a zero skill card). And thats just talking about decks that SIDE mystic mine.
Veiler and Ash are (generally) considered to be much more fair cards because despite how busted they are, its generally accepted that they're good for disrupting choke points in combos and should stay for that reason. There's skill in recognizing when to resolve those cards, or when to hold them if you can tell that ashing or veilering your opponent's combo at that moment would be a waste.
Also, what exactly is the "meta call" for siding Mine? Is it when you want to be a dick? The only thing stopping people from always maining Mine is because it gets the most out of a meta when people start to sleep on it because of other cards that people have rotated into their side decks. This isnt like Non-Fusion Area where the only reason its played is because the best deck is a fusion deck, you can play Mine in so many situations.
The way you describe it, it seems that people play it in times of uncertainty because its a very safe card. I say that's why we banned Verte.
I'd rather be locked under Winda or Barrier Statue, its that painful and I regret ever advocating for the card. The only reason I did was because i was salty that Droplet was so expensive, but its literally a 20 dollar card now (and I can only pray we get even cheaper reprints). We can ban Mine now, shits finally somewhat stable.
I run numeron mine and side deck in runic mine in for game 2 or 3. How do y’all feel about me? Genuinely 😂
When I look at how Yugioh is played now with its accelerated pace, emphasis on monster effects, special summons, combos, etc... on the surface, having a card like Mystic Mine around just seems weird and counter intuitive to how Konami designs their newer cards.
It would be as if Royal Oppression were unbanned all of a sudden.
Love the Doctor Strange love reference lol.
5:41 This is how Konami makes new cards.
haha love these "smarter" vids :D
NOT A MINE APOLOGIST:
but, I do think there is a point to say that mine isn’t the only floodgates and I would even argue isn’t even the worst
Rivalry
Gozen
TCBOO
Skill drain
all have unfair levels of synergy with strategies generically that Mystic Mine really doesn’t have
monsters like Dweller and Artifact Scythe both continue for the rest of the turn making then lingering… Hell Lancea, droll and Shifter are handtraps…
while I do agree Mystic Mine SHOULD be banned, saying thats the only thing wrong with competetive Yu-Gi-Oh at the moment is just wrong since the problems CURRENTLY stem from the banlist system being non-transparent and ineffective, if the banlist is about balancing the metagame… then why wasn’t Tearlaments hit directly? if the banlist is about making the game fun/fair, then why aren’t floodgates and floodgate decks like Floowandareeze not getting hit? If the Banlist is about what the players want then why isn’t mine banned yet? Some argue that it’s because they want to sell new product and it seems that Konami TCG does not ban cards, or rather too heavily nerf decks the first banlist they come out… this is actually true when you look at every card released in modern history. HOWEVER this gets confusing when you see that the team that makes the banlist obviously are Bias, since if it was only about selling cards they would have banned Mine to appease players… but obviously there are bias on what can and cannot exist. an in archtype boss monster that stops the opponent from searching is banned… but a similarly easy monster to summon that locks both players into only ss winds is not even a serious consideration? banning Red Reboot so I can stop myself from losing to d barrier, sanctum, ddg is banned. BUT we get floodgates like Spellbook of Judgement off the banlist..?
I mean, rivalry, gozen, even skill drain and tcboo to some degree, all leave room for player skill to matter on top of "just draw the out lol". Tcboo being probably the most obnoxious. The handtraps may feel terrible but can also be played around if you know they might come up. Even d barrier isnt all-powerful, being the turn skip that it essentially is. All of these are a pain, yes, but the side deck exists for a reason. Mine on the other hand requires a completely different approach to the game and outing it is necessary since you essentially cannot play under it at all. It drags out games into time where skill could have clearly mattered but didnt since the out wasnt drawn within 30 turns of passing. Where like i said, you dont even always _need_ to out the other big floodgates.
Floo searching the statue during their standard setup is annoying yea. One droplet, drnm, even imperm or chalice, outs it, and floo probably wont have a negate since they are already bricky af and probably cant afford shit like extra traps and their usual end board relies on stun, with maybe a singular negate in avian. I still do hope for the statue getting a treatment like protos for swordsoul, being a super searchable floodgate turn 1.
All in all, you got some valid points but these i felt a need to disagree
I don't mind Mystic mine, problem is that it's going to hurt my pure runick deck...
Run Witchcrafters with them. It's still stall, but way less obnoxious and ban-worthy
Doesnt "pure" runick just run a bunch of floodgates (including mine) in hopes of decking out the opponent through all the mill banish effects?
@@ensamvarg8504 yup
The video can be summarized in: mine needs to be banned for the unhealthy scenarios it creates in a tournament environment and for how much it conditionates the deck building process.
Thank you Jesse, but even if I play a copy of eradicator, multiple smashers etc nothing saves me from my runick mine opponent banishing them.
Mcdizzy here I'm a stun player and mine and imato go well together also you could stall or not good two card mixture
Mine is vanity’s 2.0 change my mind
Mine should be untouched.
That way as an OCG/MD player, i can laugh at tcg banlist.
I mald and seethe as a tcg player playing md cuz of maxx c tho :(
@@dhanyl2725 you'll get used to it.
Jk, on actual reason ocg player mostly accept maxx c is due to it's out are usable againts any other card whether againts meta or non meta, unlike mine out whose useless againts most non-mine meta deck.
Yes i love playing a 31 card deck
@@ensamvarg8504 31 card deck with 9 staple that can be used againts most deck in the game?
Count me in.
@@dewanegara8333 i prefer actual diversity in deckbuilding but have fun
Imo Mystic Mine needs to be at 3 until it irreparably contorts the game and the way people play it around its existence FOREVER kinda like "Gorz Order" and Mirror Force (running spelltrap spelltrap destruction is normalized as is less monster reliance)
Unless they also ban all generic toolbox negates and "offensive" handtraps then throw it out with them
What does this even mean
Is your deck bad? You want to win with a mediocre deck? Mystic Mine and other floodgates are your friends! Make sure to include solemn judgements so even if the opponent is prepared and draws the out they can't play.
See I hated Mine for the reason that people shouldn't have to build around singular cards within a format. But I've kind of grown to feel that in monster heavy formats Mine is what it is. If you're trying to burn and win off its back then that's kinda degenerate but unfortunately there's no rule of how people play cards that are legal, same with the dumb eradicator Tear nonsense. As it stands I see mine as another board breaker just like dark ruler is, only it takes a little more skill not to screw yourself over with it. Like we didn't see swordsoul players popping up with it in their decks because they were planning to stall with it, they had it because they can't fight off established boards very well. We see people maining cards like DRNM now, like gee I wonder if maybe some of the issue is that it's obnoxious trying to fight through decks now. And yet, and yet, we don't really see many people advocating ruler to be banned, maybe because the tcg made cards like nibiru and DRNM exactly for more problematic formats and these blowout cards are doing exactly what they were designed to do.
These are the ones who put super poly to 3 and then made Garura. And then people like surprised Pikachu when they hit Appointer but not any of the actual blowouts sans reboot. I get it comes off as an annoying card but I genuinely think it comes down to usage and player deck how annoying it'll be. If you have an immediate out then you're probably winning, because the fact is no one is playing mine when they're in any kind of immediate winning position. There have been times I've gone against Mine and chose to hold off when I had an out in favor of just waiting until I had an otk available, and it works. Yes it slows things temporarily, but regardless of who's field it's on I think you can sometimes find a way to use it to your advantage if you're clever.
While Mine can be used be used to break boards, we have to be honest with ourselves with how many decks actually use it as such. Beyond Swordsoul, I can't really think of any decks.
DRNM is much more preferable to Mine because it's not lingering, and it ensures that you don't lose that turn. You at least get to play the game on your turn. In addition, DRNM is solidly a going second card. With Demise of Lands and Metaverse, it can transform Mine into a going first card as well. Just wait for your opponent to summon more monsters than you or wait until they clear your monsters before flipping.
I appreciate your anecdote about waiting under mine strategically, its something a lot of impatient players don't consider, but I don't think you've considered the other side of the coin.
You could be under mine with an out in hand, waiting for the OTK opportunity, but as you're awaiting to gather more resources, so is your opponent. They could easily draw into multiple ways to protect that Mine or set up a second. Consider things like Solemn Judgement, Dark Bribe, Demise of Lands, and Metaverse. The Runick archetype comes to mind: Hugin gives inherent protection to mine as a passive effect.
The argument could be made to wait until you have multiple outs, something that Joseph Giorlando had advised. Also consider that Runicks can mill away your multiple outs to Mine.
Now we're adding on multiple conditions to combat a single card: you have to have an out, then wait for multiple outs, also make sure you have OTK, while also somehow not getting blown out while you're waiting. Why is the onus on the person under Mine? Is it not enough punishment to already be locked out of monster effects and attacking? Meanwhile the user of Mine can just sit on it.
@@SouBU95 Dai who topped with Exosister said he used mine as extra copies of Ruler himself but that it didn't come up a ton. People would play it in Spright from time to time also. I think you'll find a lot of the mid range combo decks have been playing it so they can do their normal shenanigans. It's not worth praying it's going to sit around indefinitely. As I specifically said "unfortunately there's no rule as to HOW decks use any specific card" but you probably aren't going to be seeing Mine as a win con with burn like at that LATAM ycs to the same degree as Europe or NA. I can think of one time I used it as a win con and it was because my opponent playing Tear had 2 cards left in deck after using desires twice and it was easier to say "I know you don't have an out left" while at the same time "I'm not the one who told you to burn through 20 cards."
Also Runick is annoying yes, crazy how a deck that doesn't play by conventional deck standards could be such, but again, there's no rule as to how decks use specific cards.
We could go on all the live long day pointing out every archetype in the game saying "well it's not fair that X deck uses it in this way that is more degenerate" but then it starts sounding closer to the argument people have had with generic boss monsters. Like "that's not fair, why does borrel savage see more play in random good stuff decks than pure rokket?" Idk maybe because the card is great but it's not GOOD ENOUGH to hold a strategy together on its own in this day and age, that's where I feel Mine is right now.
wow other ppl think dinos are lame i legit thought i was the only one holy fuck..
I enjoy hard countering Mystic Mine with searchable D/D Orthros and Kali Yuga :>
The card is unhealthy because of how absolutely free it is
It requires nothing out of you
There’s no cost
It doesn’t even really take up a zone on the board
And it purposely says flat out, no yugioh at all
And I’m sorry but the counterpoint of
“Oh just draw the out lol” is not a valid one because none of those outs are searchable so by the time most people do have the out
You have already set up defense for it in either a field barrier or solemn judgement
A quarter of my entire deck should not be dedicated to one card
End of story
Mine sucks!
The cost to playing mine is for the most part you can't advance your own game state under it either, unless you play geist, but that deck is bullshit for a lot of reasons.
A lot of times mine ends up being either you deck them out or they out it and otk you the same turn. Either you win or lose by it. High risk high reward. Its a pretty skill expressive card because players have to play in a way that they win once an out is seen, for both sides.
@@shawnjavery the issue with your comment is that most decks that rely on mine dont care about their own gamestate, they just want to win via bullshit. Maybe put 1 or 2 monsters on board, making sure they have less at all times, which yea not everyone does right but that doesnt really make it skillful to use well, just says a lot about the lack of intelligence for players who dont use it properly. Many of the decks dont even care for their monsters effects, just the body and name. They also seem to really like running a bunch of board breakers specifically to put down a mine and lock down the game, with a few extra floodgates that are super obnoxious for good measure.
Dont get me wrong, i would like to agree with your argument since it sounds right, but in practice i dont think it holds up
based stevie take
Mystic Mine is here so that we don't get Maxx "C" unbanned
I'd rather see the roach released than have to deal with Mine. At least Maxx C puts can also work with other prevalent cards, Mine outs work only exactly against it and backrow
If everything was banned only if it was actually good, I would still be playing orcust.
At least Mystic Mine protected me from an already full Kshatri-La board. I understand the hate but when it comes to those kinds of situations, Any help is welcomed.
obviously
mystic mine should not be banned because of it being toxic and unfun but because the 6 superheavy samurai players in the world cannot play an out in their deck without ruining their whole archetype/deck afterwards
Do I think mystic mine should be banned? Yes
Do I think it should have been banned last banlist (accounting for the other hits)? No, not yet
The reason is very simple, it helps lots and lots of decks handle tear and other matchups that'd otherwise be unbearable, and I think that at this point we unironically have adapted to playing around it.
If next banlist tear gets shit on (through banning the ishizu cards or in engine cards), you can ban both mine and shifter, which functionally both are there just to try and check tear as a deck
man, stevie really do be climbing my fav yugituber list fast
Ok, lets go threw the points...
Data:
Just looking at data and making decicions based on that without any actual context is known to be a bad idea, but you still did it.
1. How cares about the sidedeck rep of the card. I wanna know how many maindecks it plagues, because thats where its actually played by most people.
2. The top lists on db, are obtimised to win games quickly, because thats how you grind points the fastest. If you take 60 minutes to minestal your opponent to death, you are not grinding points quickly enough to be this high up, even if your deck has the higher winrate.
3. Never look at random winrate stats because they practically never tell you anything. Example: In dead by daylight the best killer in the game (nurse) has the lowest winrate of all, because shes hard to play and a bunch of noobs play her incorrectly.
Not saying this is what happens with mine, but its an example for a broken thing with a low winrate. Also considering that beginners/worse players tend to gravitate to floodgates, its not highly unlikely. (Especially because the very good players tend to not include it, because its too slow.
5. 17% topcut rep means that about every 5th player is on that card. In a meta with runick and everyone being prepared for it, thats a pretty high number. Yes, ash is higher in terms of numbers, but people dont play cards specifically to counter exactly ash blossom.
Events mine had success in:
What about all the other events?
What about the na championship with both finalists having 3 mine in their maindeck?
What about the exosister list that recently won niagra falls? It also maindecked mine.
You specifically named the german nats. In that event the second place list was on mystic mine in the maindeck. Why did that work?
Also going back to context. Yes, ycs rio was pretty small, but it is still an absolute joke, that a random guy with his random fundeck can run through an entire tournament by just playing mine, even if the event only has hundreds of players.
People building their decks around it:
Yes, people activly have to build their decks to counter mystic mine. Tell me that stats on how many people enjoy having to do that, because you like statistics so much.
Dont think i can/have to argue against the cons.
They are obviouslly stronger points.
unlimit harpies
Just use the out
If it still let you attack but only deal half damage I would be ok with it but as it is now I just want it banned
No drama? I don’t believe it
I'm going to say it one more time Super Poly is not bad for the game
Sounds like an isekai title 😅
Mystic Mine is literally the most fair card in the game. Just control less monsters 4head
I wouldn't say it's the "most fair card" but it probably is the most fair floodgate
Say it to YCS Rio winner.
@@zhang1750 imagine thinking this was a serious comment
It's just not that good. Realistically it's not staying on the field. When you listen to the people who topped with it, and think about the context of the tops, it's format based at best
Every card and deck is format based
@@andrejv.2834 a floodgate that is only decent at best in certain formats is not ban worthy
@@depressedguzma9858 true
Unfortunately mine is not one of those floodgates
Floo is Mystic Mine the Archetype; But the impact comes down to opinion.
If you like trying to play, but just ending up feeling useless, Floo is worse.
If you rather lose unless you draw a specific thing, and would rather at least try fruitlessly, Mine is worse.
I think it's healthy. think about it all rogue decks in one way or another are playing a floodgate all banning mine accomplish is the realization konami doesn't want budget players. because as soon as mine is banned the meta players will target rivalry, gozen, there can on be one, summon limit, skill drain until all are gone which doesn't promote fairness because rogue players still have to play dark ruler or drolpet to even play against a meta deck which isn't balanced to begin with why should rogue have to adapt to play to out but the meta gets an exemption. think about it nibiru was designed to counter combo decks since then they have made a bunch of combo decks that don't care about nibiru
Considering meta are the ones most threatened by each wave of support and each banlist... they arent really getting any sort of exemption.
except mystic mine is way worse than any of those other floodgates. if you defend with the rogue player take you are jeopardizing the health of this game
This dumb "my unfair floodgate is fine because you spent your entire hand building a board of interruptions" argument gets thrown around a lot by salty rogue players that refuse to just build their deck better or play better cards. Like I'm sorry dude, setting batteryman micro cell and passing just ain't gonna cut it nowadays
I hear you, however, we have to realize that cards are not played in a vacuum. Cards that increase Rogue playability are not limited to being used solely vs Meta, nor are they limited to being included in only Rogue decks. Floodgates hurt the play of all decks, not just the best ones. Most Rogue decks today were once considered the Meta, the fact that they are now worse then the current Meta decks literally has to happen for the game to continue as a game. The new decks are made better than the old decks on PURPOSE and thus older decks will struggle to win. These decks being worse than others is not a good excuse for cards to exist that prevent entire game mechanics. Finally the cards that are played as the outs to the Meta are played in every deck that wants to compete, meaning that even the Meta decks have to "just draw the out" to the other Meta decks, its not something only Rogue has to do to compete. I understand that what you're really saying is that Mine and other Floodgate outs are cheaper/easier to use as a crutch for older decks, and it isn't wrong to want those things, but what we should be asking for is more reprints of highly useful cards, better designed floodgates (ones that cause difficulties but don't straight shut the game to a standstill), and more sets that boost older archetypes (such as Konami's recent structure deck series), rather than trying to defend poorly designed cards that currently fit a budget.
@@Paradox-ih7rp you call healthy a full negate board on the first turns?
47% win rate doesn't sound low. Also every justification you made was ass. "decks are already being built around mine" sooo... Just draw the out?
Common Stevie L
play agains the mine or play glorified solitaire against the meta decks….
wow so much interaction nowadays in yu gi oh 😅
The "glorified solitaire" is just as grindy as oldschool if not more so, what are you even trying to say there
Whereas mine is just both players passing for 50 turns in a row and discarding for hand size until one either decks out or draws into a removal spell which probably will be solemn'd anyway by that point
watching the cons portion you're not really convincing me its a bad thing. Mine is only good at the start of said format until the game warps itself naturally. So honestly its fine as long as it isn't hurting the format which it doesn't.
Mystic mine did nothing wrong. People are just too lazy to play removal.
exactly now all monsters have effects, some monsters have 2-3 effects mystic mine is a counter to that.
Play literally anything but monster then if you are so good at the game Raul
Yeah, just play 17 removals vs Runick/Burn to get ~50% to get success to remove Mystic Mine. If you dont play 17 removal with different names you are just too lazy.
Cry hardery Zhang. I’m sure Konami will listen to you on Stevie comment
Imagine thinking you cant win with just 3 cosmic. I would love to see you bring runick mine to a tourament and dont get immidiately blown out by LS or evenly
As I've said before: "Mystic Mine is a fair and balanced card."
mbt WRONG take! super poly should be at 3 FOREVER!
All floodgates should be unbanned completely. Get off this consistency fetish the game is in and play some damn answers that aren't combo into an unbreakable board. I haven't seen a real fucking Aggro deck since Krawlers or Fur Hire and if i try to play a Control deck all I hear is bitching the game went past turn 3 and I didn't play "fair" by handtrapping 6 times.
1. Floodgates are fun to play because to have a variety of cards that do different things in the game increases deck building variations = fun duels. Yes, its bad when you have multiple of them activated, but if you builded your deck with outs, #main-sidedeck, you'll be having a balanced Yu-Gi-Oh experience (can't win them all). The best deck is the most balanced and Yu-Gi-Oh provides a gameplay were you can build a deck that can defend against anything your opponent does IF you put the cards in.
2. (I will infer with this one) Why in hell old strategies, archetypes can't be played because "they're not represented as a whole"? For example (regardless if this combination works or not), why Toons can't be seen dueling in present tournaments using cards like Mystic Mine to increase its effectiveness? Like, for example, are you only allowed to use new or current Tier 1 decks in order to play in tournaments because other players have invested stupid amounts of money in new cards?
WA DA HEL, DUD?!
3. What kind of game do you want? A game which only certain players can go to locals and tournaments because they broke their pockets in expensive + new cards + new decks = new format?
If I understood his explanation well...
That's 🤮🤮🤮!
4. Holy crap! He's worried about Konami's multi-millionaire pockets!? 🙈🙈🙈
Mystic mine is 100x healthier than maxx c. I don't want to play 8 shit ass card that deals with specifically the insect and not the entire backrow
Called by handles maxx c, ash blossom handles maxx c, crossout handles maxx c, silent graveyard handles maxx c.
I can keep going and all those ALSO stop other cards that are far more important than backrow.
Mine is literally draw the backrow removal just to get solemn judgemented.
@@Lucifer_isthereal_god name me a single one of those card that is archtype searchable.
You make the dumbest argument to mine while saying that exact shit to maxx c that I said in the original comment. Maybe open your eyes next time.
Also fyi, mine is literally the reason we don't get a tier 0 format in the tcg. Ocg got 2 tier 0 format in a single banlist season and both involves searching the dumbass insect. Mine is infinitely healthier than maxx C. Don't spew shit like this without playing the actual format yourself. It's fucking laughable a melffys player has the most dogwater take on all of youtube, even worse than Farfa 4 years ago
Maxx C: Called by the Grave, Ash, Droll Lock Bird and Crossout.
Mystic Mine: Eradicator Epidemic Virus
I played with Runick this 2 weeks, only that card worked agaisnt me, not even Spell Canceller worked
@@zhang1750 name me a single card that is archtype searchable from those you listed that counter maxx C. Actual hypocrite by not reading my orginal comment. “ oh just draw the 5 out i listed or you lose your turn”
Also great job being counter productive by not listing 5 billion backrow removal you can run, but you act like me going first means I dont have anything to deal with you.
My Tearlaments deck eat runick alive, and with earth fairy engine coming over, Mystic mine will falls into obscurity again. What are you gonna do, cry about necrovalley next?
Oh and guess what? Maxx C is searchable in both Tear Fairy and full power Spright while doing their normal combo. I didnt know they can also add Mystic mine from deck to hand. Must be because you are good at the game
mystic mine should not have been made to begin with