Missed a key point - regen isn't possible at high SOC. If you charge to 100%, that first part of your drive will use friction brakes and have limited to no regen - until SOC is dropped down. So that is another key reason to avoid 100% except when needed. And info on recommending LFP charging to 100% is incorrect. Should only do that periodically to reset range calculation, and not charge to 100% daily for same reason as NMC. Check Engineering Explained for more detailed info.
So let’s examine what happens in real life: Someone pulls up to the charger, plugs the car in and then walks off to go into a store. In my case, the EVgo chargers are located next to a target. I’ll go into the target and do some grocery shopping. Come back and still have to wait for the car to finish charging. Tesla charges a fee for idling. If you don’t come back in the appropriate amount of time you’re going to end up paying more than you expected because you were idling. Electrify America is experimenting with stopping the charge at 85%. I’m not sure if they’re going to charge an idling fee. EVgo allows you to charge up to 100% and has no talk about limiting the charge to 85%. I think the smarter thing to do for psychological reasons is the 85% battery charge Mark to 100% and every percent above that make the indicator claim that you’re at 110% or 120%. Most people want to believe that they have “a full battery” when they leave the charger. But that would also require these companies to stop lying about the range. Imagine being sold a car that promises you up to 307 miles range only for them to tell you that you should only charge to 285 miles range.
Social Security works like that, my full retirement age is 67 for 100%, it goes over 100% up to age 70 and I have seen that it works on people, it's the same as fast food: our smallest cup is a medium
Maximum range is a much better compared to her than range at recommended Optimum battery health daily commute level of 80% and would incentivize automakers to lie. If I had a gas car and they said you can reduce maintenance by only filling your tank 80% full, I would gladly do it
@@rp9674we has buyers should always have a choice and not have to following any dealership or maker. We own it so we should be able to do as we please with it. When getting my leased EV I was never told anything. It was all about the sale and being out asap. I was fine with that as I already knew how EVs all work. Lots of people don't and this goes for rentals as well.
@volcalstone a combination of people doing more research and educating you when they sell you in EV, they should send you links to their company instructional videos and give you in person instruction as needed, can't trust leaving it up to just the salesperson. On some levels it's very simple, but there are a lot of details. Like the compromise between your convenience and optimal battery health, example: charge to 80% normally, charge to 100% when needed, don't worry about it
When there is someone waiting behind me to charge or the lines are long, I will typically try to reduce my amount of charge if I can. Otherwise: I usually go to the charging station early or late so that I can avoid lines of people.
I’ve only been to a charger with a line once out of about 30 times. I didn’t have to wait but it filled up while I was charging so I unplugged and left since I had enough to get to the next supercharger
@@mhs0407Is it safe to assume you feel quite intimidated by the very existence of BEV’s, ergo, the need to post your petrol “fuellish” comment here? You need to logically consider that most people commenting here have more than likely started out driving petrol fuelled vehicles in the past. They all know how long it takes to refuel a vehicle with liquid fuel…..🙄 They don’t hate on petrol / gas powered cars - they’ve simply evolved to a higher plane of automotive propulsion technology - hence the move to EV’s. It’s a choice they have made, and most will never be going back to an internal combustion engine. You don’t have to get an EV if you don’t want to; by all means, do stay with burning hydrocarbons to power your vehicle. It’s a free country and you’re welcome to choose what you want, as are EV owners. And there’s no need to feel intimidated or insecure about EV’s either, by boasting about a 4 minute refuelling process. Drive what you like and enjoy the experience. Isn’t freedom a wonderful thing? 😊 Live and let live!
The 80% rule still matters. Cramming that last 20% in generates a lot of heat. Keep it over 10% and under 80% is the "rule of thumb" for current battery tech. Perhaps new batteries will bring new rules but if you've got the range and charging options and dare I say discipline to pull that off your batteries should last longer. Good luck EV fans and save that last plug for me!
It's more of "We did a video to talk about why the 80% number is such a big thing in EVs and it was popular so we wanted to follow up." This is more chemistry dependent than our first one, because LFP wasn't a real big thing at the time. It is now.
Actually, LFP should not be charged to 100% on a regular basis neither. Manufacturers do ask you to do it but for entirely different reasons: it's the only way for the car to "know for sure" in which percentage of charge it is. This is because in the case of LFP is more difficult for the car to keep track of the battery percentage in the long term of not charged to 100% from time to time. But in reality both battery chemistries experience faster degradation when regularly exposed to higher levels of battery charge
Nonsense! Ill informed! Charge your batteries to 100% all the time and leave them there for months on end and everything will be perfectly fine and your warranty will be maintained.
@@boblatkey7160 Where is your info coming from Bob, if you don't mind my asking? You seem pretty cocksure without offering anything beyond the exclamation mark.
This is correct, the way the lfps work, the voltage curve is not a convenient way to measure charge. As a result, they have to actually calibrate the current battery health by having it charged to 100% at least occasionally You still should probably not charge an lfp battery to 100%. Every single time, but charging it at least once a month to 100% should allow for calibration to be mostly accurate Why Tesla is recommending you? Charge it to 100% every time? No idea
80% is best purely from a time saving aspect! Do that and then plot where your next charger should be unless you plan on driving through Montana or something.
Thank you very much for bringing this topic up, depending on who your listening too, the jury is very much still out on just how much this 80% rule is applying, I think it matters more on say the 2017 to 2020 Chevy Bolts, but less on say the 2023 KIA NIRO EV
Cadillac 2023 LYRIQ Charging 19.2 KWH CHARGER. I typically charge to 50-60% using a Level 1 charger. Objective slowest charging as possible while maintaining 50% SOC adjusting pending anticipated driving needs( some days no charging needed). Fast charging only for long distances planning not to exceed 80% if possible. I have a 19.2 KWH CHARGER with a 11.5 kwh EVSE. What charging recommendation would you recommend for my situation?
It seems the info I found is the lyric uses an NMCA cell based lithium battery. Set the car to an 80% limit and just plug in when you feel like it. If you are going to go on a trip then set it to 100% and charge up so youbare ready to leave at full capacity. There is no reason to ever use the 120V EVSE if you have a 240V available, both are relatively slow charge rates compared to the pack size as either will be slow enough to not cause things like heat issues.
some of the reason you’ve outlined have nothing to do with battery degradation but to do with the accuracy of state of SOC . The 80% rule could easily be the 90% rule but for one factor the charge rate slows after 83% so to make things easier. People talk about the 80% rule.
I think this “rule” is just etiquette on a public charger. But until the charging networks are flawless, I don’t blame people for going beyond 80% at a public charger. I’ve been nearly stranded before when I roll up to the next charging stop and the machines are out of order. Really nice to have enough charge left over to get you out of a bind like that! The argument about battery degradation is kinda dumb to me. It’s the car company putting a 10-year warranty on the battery pack they sold you and then trying to reduce their costs to fulfill that warranty. Stop trying to sell us cars with false advertising then…if you want to say the range is 260 miles, don’t tell me to only charge to 208 miles! I mostly charge at home and go full every time. Why not?
I have a 2021 Tesla 3 with a LFP battery. And the service department has told me in person only 80% daily. Where does it say 100% on Tesla’s website please???
It would seem there are two 80% rules, then. And this only refers to DC charging, which is what, 15% of charging sessions? In home charging my Bolt, I stop at 80-88% unless there's a long trip coming up, and with AC I haven't seen a slow-down until it's viery near a cap. So the more general "80% rule" is about degradation risk near the top and bottom of capacity. I think this could confuse the EV-curious.
I leased my Tesla and absolutely screw the charging limit recommendation. I’m paying the full leasing premium every month so I expect a car that can do 349miles. Why would I charge only up to 280 miles? Fucking joke that business model. It’ll be Tesla’s problem after the lease terminates.
The 80% rule is one of the downsides to BEVs, because it means you need much-larger batteries to make range and charging less anxious issues for road trippers, where 800-volt architecture is a must …
how many channels is this guy going to be a part of? Is he on #3 or #4 at this point? where is his partner in 'crime'? All good points. Ppl should just public charge to 80-85% and and go on about their business. Most users of EVs can get 2 days use of an 80% battery (winter is different), so why not live EV life around an 80-85% battery w/public charging? Yes, some trips/excursions might need the extra, but plan the trip to the next station w/in the 80-85% range and go from there. Big deal out of nothing? 🤔
I have come to the conclusion nobody knows for sure what is the best charging policy . I think most manufacturers buid in a buffer range . It maybe as high as 10 percent. Maybe thats why ford says you can charge to 90 percent
It matters considerably, as on mine the most range the car will show is 325 miles. With80% charge that comes down to 260 displayed miles. Factor in reality, AC /heater usage, and that you really don't want to get to any less than 10-20% before charging and your real life range is now approaching 150 miles. Pretty shocking that I'm now getting less than half what was displayed originally whilst it was sat on the drive
Mine is for business use. A typical trip could be done in a day in a diesel. That same trip in an ev now involves an overnight stay. Not very cost effective or productive
The 80% rule is a religion, not based on science. 100% is not really 100%, 0% is not really 0%. We all know about buffers. Every EV is different on an individual level based on usage patterns and degradation. If 80% was a real thing, 80% would be 100% and there would be penalties for overcharging. Ignore the priesthood and use your awareness of your vehicle and common sense.
The 80% rule is garbage nonsense. I charge all of my lithium batteries in eight different electric bicycles and miscellaneous toys all the way to a 100% and I leave them there and they have been around for years with many many charge discharge cycles. I also work for an energy storage manufacturer and we charge all of our lithium batteries to 100%, we let them sit at 100%, and they maintain their 10 year warranty regardless. 0 fires, ever.
So you're extrapolating your E-bike and gadget experience to the realm of the automotive EV. Sounds pretty dubious to me. The "energy storage" sounds interesting but again, I'm guessing those aren't seeing the temp extremes and aggressive charge discharge cycles that an automotive application would face. Is that like a. Tesla Powerwall? At least I know where you're coming from now. I wouldn't hesitate to lvl 2 charge a EV to 100% daily if I needed that range otherwise why risk it? Do your E-bikes take lvl 3 charging? That is really what. people are concerned with cramming electrons into a pack near full up with a Lvl 3 fast charging. And what that does over time. Apparently it's a public charger etiquette issue as well. Who knew?
Incorrect on LFP. This is just regurgitating old and bad info. Poorly timed given a new study just came out. The worst way to charge LFP is in small increments between 80-100%. LFP needs to be charged to 100% occasionally due to its low voltage curve so that range estimation can be more accurate. The degradation increase is however estimated to not be massive. Current estimate is worst case charging will leave you at 90% after 200k miles on a car with 250 miles range and 98% for that same car if charging is kept at low SOC. There's some nuance in there.
LFP battery is not good to be charged 💯. but only if they are charged occasionally up to 100 the car can approximate what autonomy it can have, to effectively show the percentage of the battery.
My opinion is as battery capacities improve, to make 80% the new 100%. And make a 'range boost' option available when slow charging, which would charge the battery to 100%. That would also decrease degradation.
New research has shown than even LFPs degrade if you charge them to 100% but less. Best charging is still a bit different than regular batteries, apparently it's best to discharge them to around 5% and them fully charge them to 80% with 100% once every 2 weeks, less cycles the better. Only reason manufacturers recommend that you charge to 100% once in a while is to calibrate battery capacity because LFPs have a pretty flat voltage curve so it's difficult to know exact percentage of charge.
Being a relatively recent EV owner this channel is a gift that keeps on giving. I was wondering if brand new EVs initially don't give the rated range. For example I have a Tata Motors Punch EV, with a 35 kwh LFP battery with a rated 300 km per charge. However I got 200 km on my last charge (had driven very aggressively during the last use) I was told range will go up after a few charging cycles. Is this true?
The more aggressive you drive, the less range you'll get. Of course, that's the same with a petrol or diesel powered vehicle. Just make sure with that LFP battery you're charging to 100% at least once a week.
I have charged my Hyundai Ioniq to 100% almost every workday for more than 5 years, on my home charger. Still no loss in range, it still shows the same range as when it was new. (It has now driven 80.000 km.) DC fast changing is different, but I assume most of the charging is done at home for most people? (Not having home charging makes owning an EV meaningless imo)
how fast is your home charger? is it slower than a public charger? I'm not sure the issue here is 100% in general, but to 100% at a high rate public rapid charger. Slow charging doesn't cause the heat that quick/rapid charging does; and I believe it is this heat issue that is the major concern for going to 100% at a public fast charger that is the issue.
I'm on a 2011 Nissan Leaf still on original battery and I do have lower range (now get 65-70 miles instead of 105) after 13 years but I still see all charge bars if I charge to 100%. The 80% rule only applies if you leave the car sit for awhile, but I usually leave the car at lower levels anywhere from 35 to 60% if it sits for more than a few hours. The other rule I follow is to vary the charge. If my battery which isn't thermal controlled is still looking good for a few more years then that should tell you something. I'm now on my 3rd one of those stupid accessory 12v batteries and gone through 4 key fob batteries in that time. Take care of the battery and it will take care of you.
Did you get the new battery that Nissan offered way back when. My bro in Arizona got one and said California lawsuits made it happen. He actually said, "California is finally actually good for something." But that was the heat affecting his brain, I think. His was dipping near 60 miles in about 2 years in the Arizona heat before the replacement.
@@james.a.h. everyday I drive between 250 to 300km and is of my interest analyzing the behavior of the car. I control the % of the battery after finishing work… Sure the degradation is not 0% but I can tell you is almost non perceptible. Edit: I charge everyday during the night at 7kW/h
This is minformation. The Journal Of Electrochemical Society just released a study last week that contradicts automaker advice titled "The Operation Window of Lithium Iron Phosphate/Graphite Cells Affects their Lifetime" that found the same coorelation between battery degradation and charging above 75% exists with LFP batteries as does with NMC batteries. What automakers have been suggesting has been wrecking these batteries. But they don't care because they are cheap and they just offer them with a lower warranty. tl;dr- Charging to 100% harms LFP batteries, but occasionally charging to 100% is necessary for the BMS to know how full the battery is. So do it maybe once a week but don't keep it at 100% state of charge for very long.
Assuming you have NMC batteries, the most common for North America, I think the best way to choose a normal day-to-day charging level is: 1. See what battery % you use on a typical day. 2. Add ~20% to that. 3. Temper that result, considering that: * >80% routinely is rough on the battery, * 50% is considerably less taxing on the battery than 80%, and *
According to an article published by Journal of The Electrochemical Society, this video is completely wrong. They assert that regularly charging LFP batteries above 80% accelerates their degradation. In that you could be causing people to accelerate battery degradation, perhaps you should pull this video. (The Operation Window of Lithium Iron Phosphate/Graphite Cells Affects their Lifetime)
"There is clearly a tradeoff between useful capacity and capacity retention. It is not realistic to recommend cycling LFP cells between 0%-25% SOC only, because that is a waste of capacity. However, we propose that LFP cells cycled between 0%-80% (or 0%-60%) would have a reasonable capacity and a longer lifetime than cells cycled between 0%-100%."
Sorry to say this but we drive 2020 hyundai kona 64kw LG battery we charge it to a 100% once a week every week on our hone ac 7kw system and have done so since new. Last week it went in fir service and fluid changes and the battery health check shows no degradation. We don't use dc charger system very often my 6 or 7 times a year . If the battery get warm during charging you hear the cooling system engaging . So the 80% is a bit old hat abd only really apply to super fast dc charging. Most people charge there cars at home using the ac 7kw home charging system. It a slow but reliable method and with night time electricity being also free it's worth it.
So would it be that much more harmful to go to 85% instead of just 80% its only 5% more? Plus by the time you actually leave the vampire drain shaves off another 3%.
I am not so sure about the battery degradation issue. I know of several 300k plus mileage EVs that use super chargers all the time almost 100% of the time since new and they still have over 90% of their original range aka battery life left ... 5 plus years into their lifetimes...
I was sure that the 100% for LFP is to do with battery level calibration. Its to do with the voltage curve of the battery tech. The car knows its perfentage based on how much voltage its producing however the curve is very flat up til the last few percentage with LFP.
MNC Li-Ion battery longevity decay with use and storage. The longevity decreases the least when you keep the battery at 40%-45% charged. Since all makers keep 5%-10% reserve above the point they will low charging that relates to 45%-55%. To maximize longevity unless planning on using more capacity you should keep your BEV battery within these ranges.
EE just did a good video too about LFP batteries and the nuances in terms of charging and the effect on longevity. I think it’s always good to try and adhere to the recommendations as long as it doesn’t impact convenience.
The only reason why they want you to follow the 80% rule (what used to be the 85% rule) is because it takes as much time to go from 0% charge to 80% charge as it does to go from 80% to 100%. I use EVgo charging and I typically charge my car to 100% which gives me 307 miles on a 102 kilowatt hour battery in my Cadillac LYRIQ. I am not worried about damaging the battery. The battery is warrantied for damn near 10 years. The car is a lease. I can understand why they want to keep the line moving and have people charge and leave as quickly as possible, but until these cars are standardized like Tesla and their supercharger network you’re not going to see that happen. Electrify America is experimenting with cutting the charge at 85% . Will have to see how that goes. I was at the EVgo station yesterday and for some reason the charge stopped at 85%. I unplugged the plug and then I plugged it in so that I could finish going from 85% to 100%. I have free charging for two years.
@@matthewhuszarik4173true but there should be a battery health monitor at the time of purchase but the again I'm not sure if battery wear will show up within 1 or 2 years even. I would only buy a used BEV if I knew the history of the vechicle like buying it from someone you know.
My volvo says 90% recommended....should I still stay with 80%? My charger curve from 70-80% is the same as 80-90% but 90-100% is much slower as described here. I'm thinking that guidance should be for all owners to find that inflection point on the charging curve and set that as your "normal" ceiling, only to go past that when road tripping, etc.
Charging to 100% is always slower on a trip than charging until it slows - which is generally around 80% - and moving on and charging again when you need to.
So it sorta depends on what you're trying to do. For everyday charging, it's never a bad idea to follow the owner's manual for charging. If you aren't using all 90% every day, stopping at 80% wouldn't hurt, but you might not see much more benefit. We're learning batteries are far more resilient in cars than they are in devices like phones. On road trips, fill up to as much as you need to get to the next charging station or where you need to go. If you're trying to "cannonball" the road trip, it is actually quicker to pull into a charging station at a low state of charge, plug in until the charging speed drops off, and then hurry up to the next charging stations and do it again. It's not strictly necessary to do it that way, but some people do and it's proven to be a bit quicker.
I’ve also suspected that charging over 80% becomes less efficient too so I believe that you pay more per kw/h as you creep nearer to 100%. Is this true? And also I love single pedal driving but regen is significantly limited when the battery is charged to over 90%. Something to bear in mind when you live on a hill as I do and you suddenly find the car freewheeling when you set off.
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Missed a key point - regen isn't possible at high SOC. If you charge to 100%, that first part of your drive will use friction brakes and have limited to no regen - until SOC is dropped down. So that is another key reason to avoid 100% except when needed. And info on recommending LFP charging to 100% is incorrect. Should only do that periodically to reset range calculation, and not charge to 100% daily for same reason as NMC. Check Engineering Explained for more detailed info.
So let’s examine what happens in real life:
Someone pulls up to the charger, plugs the car in and then walks off to go into a store. In my case, the EVgo chargers are located next to a target. I’ll go into the target and do some grocery shopping. Come back and still have to wait for the car to finish charging.
Tesla charges a fee for idling. If you don’t come back in the appropriate amount of time you’re going to end up paying more than you expected because you were idling.
Electrify America is experimenting with stopping the charge at 85%. I’m not sure if they’re going to charge an idling fee.
EVgo allows you to charge up to 100% and has no talk about limiting the charge to 85%.
I think the smarter thing to do for psychological reasons is the 85% battery charge Mark to 100% and every percent above that make the indicator claim that you’re at 110% or 120%.
Most people want to believe that they have “a full battery” when they leave the charger.
But that would also require these companies to stop lying about the range.
Imagine being sold a car that promises you up to 307 miles range only for them to tell you that you should only charge to 285 miles range.
Excellent points about battery warranties and leasing!
- Craig
Social Security works like that, my full retirement age is 67 for 100%, it goes over 100% up to age 70 and I have seen that it works on people, it's the same as fast food: our smallest cup is a medium
Maximum range is a much better compared to her than range at recommended Optimum battery health daily commute level of 80% and would incentivize automakers to lie. If I had a gas car and they said you can reduce maintenance by only filling your tank 80% full, I would gladly do it
@@rp9674we has buyers should always have a choice and not have to following any dealership or maker. We own it so we should be able to do as we please with it. When getting my leased EV I was never told anything. It was all about the sale and being out asap. I was fine with that as I already knew how EVs all work. Lots of people don't and this goes for rentals as well.
@volcalstone a combination of people doing more research and educating you when they sell you in EV, they should send you links to their company instructional videos and give you in person instruction as needed, can't trust leaving it up to just the salesperson. On some levels it's very simple, but there are a lot of details. Like the compromise between your convenience and optimal battery health, example: charge to 80% normally, charge to 100% when needed, don't worry about it
When there is someone waiting behind me to charge or the lines are long, I will typically try to reduce my amount of charge if I can. Otherwise: I usually go to the charging station early or late so that I can avoid lines of people.
That's very conscientious of you. You're a good EV citizen!
- Craig
I’ve only been to a charger with a line once out of about 30 times. I didn’t have to wait but it filled up while I was charging so I unplugged and left since I had enough to get to the next supercharger
I simply fill up my 505 HP Giulia Quadrifoglio to 100% in about 4 minutes at the gas station, then I'm on my way!!! 😂😂😂
@@mhs0407
The Quadrafaglio is a boring car honestly.
Same for Maserati.
Hellcat is a better deal.
@@mhs0407Is it safe to assume you feel quite intimidated by the very existence of BEV’s, ergo, the need to post your petrol “fuellish” comment here?
You need to logically consider that most people commenting here have more than likely started out driving petrol fuelled vehicles in the past.
They all know how long it takes to refuel a vehicle with liquid fuel…..🙄
They don’t hate on petrol / gas powered cars - they’ve simply evolved to a higher plane of automotive propulsion technology - hence the move to EV’s.
It’s a choice they have made, and most will never be going back to an internal combustion engine.
You don’t have to get an EV if you don’t want to; by all means, do stay with burning hydrocarbons to power your vehicle.
It’s a free country and you’re welcome to choose what you want, as are EV owners.
And there’s no need to feel intimidated or insecure about EV’s either, by boasting about a 4 minute refuelling process.
Drive what you like and enjoy the experience.
Isn’t freedom a wonderful thing? 😊
Live and let live!
The 80% rule still matters. Cramming that last 20% in generates a lot of heat. Keep it over 10% and under 80% is the "rule of thumb" for current battery tech. Perhaps new batteries will bring new rules but if you've got the range and charging options and dare I say discipline to pull that off your batteries should last longer. Good luck EV fans and save that last plug for me!
You are 100% wrong
@@boblatkey7160 Wouldn't be the first time although I usually top out at about 80% wrong. Gotta keep a kernel of truth, ya know.
Charging to 80% isn’t a rule.
It’s etiquette. 😉
At public stations sure but this video is covering mostly the effect on the pack itself.
It's more of "We did a video to talk about why the 80% number is such a big thing in EVs and it was popular so we wanted to follow up." This is more chemistry dependent than our first one, because LFP wasn't a real big thing at the time. It is now.
So what about the Toyota BZ4X? Toyota recommends to charge to 100% with no issues...
Actually, LFP should not be charged to 100% on a regular basis neither. Manufacturers do ask you to do it but for entirely different reasons: it's the only way for the car to "know for sure" in which percentage of charge it is. This is because in the case of LFP is more difficult for the car to keep track of the battery percentage in the long term of not charged to 100% from time to time. But in reality both battery chemistries experience faster degradation when regularly exposed to higher levels of battery charge
Nonsense! Ill informed! Charge your batteries to 100% all the time and leave them there for months on end and everything will be perfectly fine and your warranty will be maintained.
@@boblatkey7160 Where is your info coming from Bob, if you don't mind my asking? You seem pretty cocksure without offering anything beyond the exclamation mark.
That's my understanding too, the voltage curve is flatter against charge so more difficult to estimate range
This is correct, the way the lfps work, the voltage curve is not a convenient way to measure charge.
As a result, they have to actually calibrate the current battery health by having it charged to 100% at least occasionally
You still should probably not charge an lfp battery to 100%. Every single time, but charging it at least once a month to 100% should allow for calibration to be mostly accurate
Why Tesla is recommending you? Charge it to 100% every time? No idea
yup, there is a new study that explain the LFP battery's degradation
Sorry, but LFPs will also suffer accelerated degradation like NMCs if charged to 100% regularly.
80% is best purely from a time saving aspect! Do that and then plot where your next charger should be unless you plan on driving through Montana or something.
Thank you very much for bringing this topic up, depending on who your listening too, the jury is very much still out on just how much
this 80% rule is applying, I think it matters more on say the 2017 to 2020 Chevy Bolts, but less on say the 2023 KIA NIRO EV
My 2023 ID 4 from Chattanooga Tennessee has the LFP battery.
Cadillac 2023 LYRIQ Charging 19.2 KWH CHARGER.
I typically charge to 50-60% using a Level 1 charger. Objective slowest charging as possible while maintaining 50% SOC adjusting pending anticipated driving needs( some days no charging needed). Fast charging only for long distances planning not to exceed 80% if possible. I have a 19.2 KWH CHARGER with a 11.5 kwh EVSE.
What charging recommendation would you recommend for my situation?
It seems the info I found is the lyric uses an NMCA cell based lithium battery. Set the car to an 80% limit and just plug in when you feel like it. If you are going to go on a trip then set it to 100% and charge up so youbare ready to leave at full capacity.
There is no reason to ever use the 120V EVSE if you have a 240V available, both are relatively slow charge rates compared to the pack size as either will be slow enough to not cause things like heat issues.
9 days and this video is already old. LFP cannot be fully charge without any problem in long period.
It really only seems to apply to DC fast charging.
some of the reason you’ve outlined have nothing to do with battery degradation but to do with the accuracy of state of SOC . The 80% rule could easily be the 90% rule but for one factor the charge rate slows after 83% so to make things easier. People talk about the 80% rule.
I think this “rule” is just etiquette on a public charger. But until the charging networks are flawless, I don’t blame people for going beyond 80% at a public charger. I’ve been nearly stranded before when I roll up to the next charging stop and the machines are out of order. Really nice to have enough charge left over to get you out of a bind like that!
The argument about battery degradation is kinda dumb to me. It’s the car company putting a 10-year warranty on the battery pack they sold you and then trying to reduce their costs to fulfill that warranty. Stop trying to sell us cars with false advertising then…if you want to say the range is 260 miles, don’t tell me to only charge to 208 miles! I mostly charge at home and go full every time. Why not?
I have a 2021 Tesla 3 with a LFP battery. And the service department has told me in person only 80% daily. Where does it say 100% on Tesla’s website please???
It would seem there are two 80% rules, then. And this only refers to DC charging, which is what, 15% of charging sessions? In home charging my Bolt, I stop at 80-88% unless there's a long trip coming up, and with AC I haven't seen a slow-down until it's viery near a cap. So the more general "80% rule" is about degradation risk near the top and bottom of capacity. I think this could confuse the EV-curious.
I leased my Tesla and absolutely screw the charging limit recommendation. I’m paying the full leasing premium every month so I expect a car that can do 349miles. Why would I charge only up to 280 miles? Fucking joke that business model. It’ll be Tesla’s problem after the lease terminates.
The 80% rule only counts for fast charging, right?
I charge my ev6 to 100% at home and never at a fast charger so my batteries never over heat
The 80% rule is one of the downsides to BEVs, because it means you need much-larger batteries to make range and charging less anxious issues for road trippers, where 800-volt architecture is a must …
what about PHEV, if only charge to 80% it won't do the purpose for most people as range is already not too long
how many channels is this guy going to be a part of? Is he on #3 or #4 at this point? where is his partner in 'crime'? All good points. Ppl should just public charge to 80-85% and and go on about their business. Most users of EVs can get 2 days use of an 80% battery (winter is different), so why not live EV life around an 80-85% battery w/public charging? Yes, some trips/excursions might need the extra, but plan the trip to the next station w/in the 80-85% range and go from there. Big deal out of nothing? 🤔
I have come to the conclusion nobody knows for sure what is the best charging policy . I think most manufacturers buid in a buffer range . It maybe as high as 10 percent. Maybe thats why ford says you can charge to 90 percent
100% for LFP is for range accuracy not for durability
I have a model 323 I have 66,000 miles 100% supercharging
It matters considerably, as on mine the most range the car will show is 325 miles. With80% charge that comes down to 260 displayed miles. Factor in reality, AC /heater usage, and that you really don't want to get to any less than 10-20% before charging and your real life range is now approaching 150 miles. Pretty shocking that I'm now getting less than half what was displayed originally whilst it was sat on the drive
Kind of funny how the range is projected on 0-100% charge but the actual charge is 10-80% so the actual range is 70% of projected.
Well that range is actually there if you need it. Kind of a safety buffer. Even the 100% rated full range has a buffer on it too.
Anyone who doesn’t charge at home is defeating the purpose anyway. Exception is a road trip
Mine is for business use. A typical trip could be done in a day in a diesel. That same trip in an ev now involves an overnight stay. Not very cost effective or productive
Which battery does an iPhone have?
Yep, it's always the gov
I can't capacity on the battery
FAR TOO ADVERTISEMENTS ON THIS VIDEO!
The 80% rule is a religion, not based on science. 100% is not really 100%, 0% is not really 0%. We all know about buffers. Every EV is different on an individual level based on usage patterns and degradation. If 80% was a real thing, 80% would be 100% and there would be penalties for overcharging. Ignore the priesthood and use your awareness of your vehicle and common sense.
OMG really? I charge to 90 all the time. You are horrifying me! its it too late. do I need to buy a new car
Yes, 80% is still a good percentage , unless you want to burn down your Car, house, garage ,and any park structure you park in.
yes, charging above 80% could take out an entire city for absolutely no reason
That is absolute garbage nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about.
There’s a greater risk of an internal combustion engine fire than an EV vehicle fire.
Enjoy your 2014 Prius
Troll.
The 80% rule is garbage nonsense. I charge all of my lithium batteries in eight different electric bicycles and miscellaneous toys all the way to a 100% and I leave them there and they have been around for years with many many charge discharge cycles. I also work for an energy storage manufacturer and we charge all of our lithium batteries to 100%, we let them sit at 100%, and they maintain their 10 year warranty regardless. 0 fires, ever.
Not yet, it's coming sooner than you think. Hope your ready when it happens
So you're extrapolating your E-bike and gadget experience to the realm of the automotive EV. Sounds pretty dubious to me. The "energy storage" sounds interesting but again, I'm guessing those aren't seeing the temp extremes and aggressive charge discharge cycles that an automotive application would face. Is that like a. Tesla Powerwall? At least I know where you're coming from now. I wouldn't hesitate to lvl 2 charge a EV to 100% daily if I needed that range otherwise why risk it? Do your E-bikes take lvl 3 charging? That is really what. people are concerned with cramming electrons into a pack near full up with a Lvl 3 fast charging. And what that does over time. Apparently it's a public charger etiquette issue as well. Who knew?
Incorrect on LFP. This is just regurgitating old and bad info. Poorly timed given a new study just came out.
The worst way to charge LFP is in small increments between 80-100%.
LFP needs to be charged to 100% occasionally due to its low voltage curve so that range estimation can be more accurate.
The degradation increase is however estimated to not be massive. Current estimate is worst case charging will leave you at 90% after 200k miles on a car with 250 miles range and 98% for that same car if charging is kept at low SOC. There's some nuance in there.
Also, I think the guidelines from Tesla presented here are old.
I just watched engineering explained with this new study. The best one with the LEAST degradation was from 0-20%
LFP battery is not good to be charged 💯. but only if they are charged occasionally up to 100 the car can approximate what autonomy it can have, to effectively show the percentage of the battery.
My opinion is as battery capacities improve, to make 80% the new 100%. And make a 'range boost' option available when slow charging, which would charge the battery to 100%.
That would also decrease degradation.
New research has shown than even LFPs degrade if you charge them to 100% but less. Best charging is still a bit different than regular batteries, apparently it's best to discharge them to around 5% and them fully charge them to 80% with 100% once every 2 weeks, less cycles the better. Only reason manufacturers recommend that you charge to 100% once in a while is to calibrate battery capacity because LFPs have a pretty flat voltage curve so it's difficult to know exact percentage of charge.
Being a relatively recent EV owner this channel is a gift that keeps on giving. I was wondering if brand new EVs initially don't give the rated range. For example I have a Tata Motors Punch EV, with a 35 kwh LFP battery with a rated 300 km per charge. However I got 200 km on my last charge (had driven very aggressively during the last use) I was told range will go up after a few charging cycles. Is this true?
Since TaTa means something else in the USA, I always smile when I hear it. 😂🎉
The more aggressive you drive, the less range you'll get. Of course, that's the same with a petrol or diesel powered vehicle. Just make sure with that LFP battery you're charging to 100% at least once a week.
I have charged my Hyundai Ioniq to 100% almost every workday for more than 5 years, on my home charger.
Still no loss in range, it still shows the same range as when it was new. (It has now driven 80.000 km.)
DC fast changing is different, but I assume most of the charging is done at home for most people?
(Not having home charging makes owning an EV meaningless imo)
how fast is your home charger? is it slower than a public charger? I'm not sure the issue here is 100% in general, but to 100% at a high rate public rapid charger. Slow charging doesn't cause the heat that quick/rapid charging does; and I believe it is this heat issue that is the major concern for going to 100% at a public fast charger that is the issue.
I'm on a 2011 Nissan Leaf still on original battery and I do have lower range (now get 65-70 miles instead of 105) after 13 years but I still see all charge bars if I charge to 100%. The 80% rule only applies if you leave the car sit for awhile, but I usually leave the car at lower levels anywhere from 35 to 60% if it sits for more than a few hours. The other rule I follow is to vary the charge. If my battery which isn't thermal controlled is still looking good for a few more years then that should tell you something. I'm now on my 3rd one of those stupid accessory 12v batteries and gone through 4 key fob batteries in that time. Take care of the battery and it will take care of you.
Did you get the new battery that Nissan offered way back when. My bro in Arizona got one and said California lawsuits made it happen. He actually said, "California is finally actually good for something." But that was the heat affecting his brain, I think. His was dipping near 60 miles in about 2 years in the Arizona heat before the replacement.
@@cbotten106 Nope, I'm still on the original 24KWH battery. I'm on the edge of the desert, but my car is garaged.
Having all 12 capacity bars on an original 2011 24kWh LEAF is highly unlikely. How many miles are on the car?
Only 15k since all I use it for is short errand run trips. Long trips I take my Harley.
What a waste of time. Nothing new here. Even my dog knows I should charge my NMC to 80%. These "content creators" are getting desperate.
Based on how popular these videos are your dog is smarter than most people.
I have a Renault Zoe, NCM battery, did 90k km last year driving Uber and charging everyday to 100%. There is no degradation since day 1🤷🏻♂️
What stats did you use to come up with 0% degredation?
@@james.a.h. everyday I drive between 250 to 300km and is of my interest analyzing the behavior of the car. I control the % of the battery after finishing work…
Sure the degradation is not 0% but I can tell you is almost non perceptible.
Edit: I charge everyday during the night at 7kW/h
That is good but it is not 0...
Thanks for clarifying all of this
So much commercial
This is minformation. The Journal Of Electrochemical Society just released a study last week that contradicts automaker advice titled "The Operation Window of Lithium Iron Phosphate/Graphite Cells Affects their Lifetime" that found the same coorelation between battery degradation and charging above 75% exists with LFP batteries as does with NMC batteries. What automakers have been suggesting has been wrecking these batteries. But they don't care because they are cheap and they just offer them with a lower warranty.
tl;dr- Charging to 100% harms LFP batteries, but occasionally charging to 100% is necessary for the BMS to know how full the battery is. So do it maybe once a week but don't keep it at 100% state of charge for very long.
Assuming you have NMC batteries, the most common for North America, I think the best way to choose a normal day-to-day charging level is:
1. See what battery % you use on a typical day.
2. Add ~20% to that.
3. Temper that result, considering that:
* >80% routinely is rough on the battery,
* 50% is considerably less taxing on the battery than 80%, and
*
According to an article published by Journal of The Electrochemical Society, this video is completely wrong. They assert that regularly charging LFP batteries above 80% accelerates their degradation. In that you could be causing people to accelerate battery degradation, perhaps you should pull this video. (The Operation Window of Lithium Iron Phosphate/Graphite Cells Affects their Lifetime)
"There is clearly a tradeoff between useful capacity and capacity retention. It is not realistic to recommend cycling LFP cells between 0%-25% SOC only, because that is a waste of capacity. However, we propose that LFP cells cycled between 0%-80% (or 0%-60%) would have a reasonable capacity and a longer lifetime than cells cycled between 0%-100%."
That’s why we quote the owners manual. The OEM is the one to warrant the battery and the cost associated with doing that.
@@EVPulse Your video still contradicts the findings of the study that I referenced.
@@EVPulse "It's ok to perpetuate false information that will ultimately screw over customers, as long as the OEM says it, it's fine".
Journalists...
Sorry to say this but we drive 2020 hyundai kona 64kw LG battery we charge it to a 100% once a week every week on our hone ac 7kw system and have done so since new. Last week it went in fir service and fluid changes and the battery health check shows no degradation. We don't use dc charger system very often my 6 or 7 times a year .
If the battery get warm during charging you hear the cooling system engaging . So the 80% is a bit old hat abd only really apply to super fast dc charging.
Most people charge there cars at home using the ac 7kw home charging system. It a slow but reliable method and with night time electricity being also free it's worth it.
So would it be that much more harmful to go to 85% instead of just 80% its only 5% more? Plus by the time you actually leave the vampire drain shaves off another 3%.
I am not so sure about the battery degradation issue. I know of several 300k plus mileage EVs that use super chargers all the time almost 100% of the time since new and they still have over 90% of their original range aka battery life left ... 5 plus years into their lifetimes...
I was sure that the 100% for LFP is to do with battery level calibration. Its to do with the voltage curve of the battery tech. The car knows its perfentage based on how much voltage its producing however the curve is very flat up til the last few percentage with LFP.
MNC Li-Ion battery longevity decay with use and storage. The longevity decreases the least when you keep the battery at 40%-45% charged. Since all makers keep 5%-10% reserve above the point they will low charging that relates to 45%-55%. To maximize longevity unless planning on using more capacity you should keep your BEV battery within these ranges.
Newer Nissan Leafs cannot be set for lower than 100% charging. The given reason is that the top 10% is locked out from being charged.
EE just did a good video too about LFP batteries and the nuances in terms of charging and the effect on longevity.
I think it’s always good to try and adhere to the recommendations as long as it doesn’t impact convenience.
Jason’s video was good (as always.)
Rule 1: don't charge over 80% if you don't have to,
rule 2: got to do what you got to do
0:48 seat belts go over the center console now? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is it bad charging to 98% with a nmc battery?
They're more like guidelines...
The only reason why they want you to follow the 80% rule (what used to be the 85% rule) is because it takes as much time to go from 0% charge to 80% charge as it does to go from 80% to 100%.
I use EVgo charging and I typically charge my car to 100% which gives me 307 miles on a 102 kilowatt hour battery in my Cadillac LYRIQ.
I am not worried about damaging the battery. The battery is warrantied for damn near 10 years.
The car is a lease.
I can understand why they want to keep the line moving and have people charge and leave as quickly as possible, but until these cars are standardized like Tesla and their supercharger network you’re not going to see that happen. Electrify America is experimenting with cutting the charge at 85% . Will have to see how that goes.
I was at the EVgo station yesterday and for some reason the charge stopped at 85%. I unplugged the plug and then I plugged it in so that I could finish going from 85% to 100%. I have free charging for two years.
You are the reason I will never buy a used BEV
@@matthewhuszarik4173true but there should be a battery health monitor at the time of purchase but the again I'm not sure if battery wear will show up within 1 or 2 years even. I would only buy a used BEV if I knew the history of the vechicle like buying it from someone you know.
Free charging from automakers is a big part of the public-charging problem
For proper regenerative braking, 80% is good number.
My volvo says 90% recommended....should I still stay with 80%? My charger curve from 70-80% is the same as 80-90% but 90-100% is much slower as described here. I'm thinking that guidance should be for all owners to find that inflection point on the charging curve and set that as your "normal" ceiling, only to go past that when road tripping, etc.
Charging to 100% is always slower on a trip than charging until it slows - which is generally around 80% - and moving on and charging again when you need to.
So it sorta depends on what you're trying to do. For everyday charging, it's never a bad idea to follow the owner's manual for charging. If you aren't using all 90% every day, stopping at 80% wouldn't hurt, but you might not see much more benefit. We're learning batteries are far more resilient in cars than they are in devices like phones.
On road trips, fill up to as much as you need to get to the next charging station or where you need to go.
If you're trying to "cannonball" the road trip, it is actually quicker to pull into a charging station at a low state of charge, plug in until the charging speed drops off, and then hurry up to the next charging stations and do it again. It's not strictly necessary to do it that way, but some people do and it's proven to be a bit quicker.
I think charging curve is the BMS programming reaction to data input from sensors, but not necessarily a direct indicator of future battery health
What about models y long range awd
Tesla only uses LFP in the standard range model 3 and Y, so long range models still use NMC and the 80% "rule" applies.
I check under software and it say Lithium ion for long range awd 7 heaters so I don't know if you right and wrong . ???
No one at my Local Toyota dealership warned me to only fill my Corolla's plastic tank to 80% to preserve its lifespan.
I’ve also suspected that charging over 80% becomes less efficient too so I believe that you pay more per kw/h as you creep nearer to 100%. Is this true?
And also I love single pedal driving but regen is significantly limited when the battery is charged to over 90%. Something to bear in mind when you live on a hill as I do and you suddenly find the car freewheeling when you set off.