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Tom, it sounds like you’re not convinced by any current atonement theories, I’m wondering if there is a current theory of atonement that you think is the closest to “getting it right.” Anything stand out? Appreciated this conversation and how approachable/ easy to understand it was.
@@stark_raving_dad Thanks for the question. I think Abelard gets it partly right. But I think we need more than an example we can witness, we need empowering moment by moment. And I think a good atonement theory looks for the transformation of all creation, not just humans. But that's the best I've got (other than what I said in the interview).
Could you please give us a reference for this supposed quote from Augustine? I find often people either don't understand and therefore are not intending to misquote or purposefully take quotes out of context. So please, I need to know where this is at, this "use your brother". I've searched on everything I can find. The berean in me requires I see if it is so.
I am what you guys would-I assume- call fundamentalist. I am not what I so often hear casted. I didn't grow up in the church. I didn't go to seminary-at least didn't finish anyway, and I believe what I believe because I love Christ Jesus above all things. I love the scriptures because they are Theopneustos-God Breathed. I am more like John Piper than some raving KJVonly nutjob. Everything I beleive about everything is derived from the Bible. I am 54, saved at 17 and I did have a rough patch for a short time but for the most part of the last 37 years I've been all out for the Lord. God has sustained my faith. I do my best to listen to others and even if I am offended by the perspectives of others', I still want to be sure that I am not misunderstanding, misrepresenting and therefore lying about others. I am not afraid to hear the other side. If what I believe is true, then it can stand up to scrutiny. And it has. I don't believe that What Mr Oord has said here for the most part stands up to scrutiny. I love this God whose Name he just maligned. I can tell he doesn't know the languages well enough to be making claims of authority like 'Shaddai means breasts'. That is despicable. I have many times seen people, even those with doctorates making bold claims when all they've done is look at a strongs concordance or some other concordance or lexicon and pick the option or meaning they like the most. Thats not how symantecs work. Take the word Love like he did. I love my wife. I love apple pie. Could someone a thousand years from now claim that the same word was used for my love for pie as for my wife, and that since I added a few other words like, awesome and tasty, it is clear I loved food more than my wife?! No, I think we can see the difference. Words have different meanings in different contexts. Also in our culture they take on different understandings. The scriptures are indeed Gods word. Matthew 22:29-32 Jesus said, But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. Notice he makes His point based on the tense of the verb. where God IS the God of the living...32 " ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..." the AM is what everything resides upon. If the scriptures had said "I was or I will be, or something along those lines, it wouldn't have made the point Christ needed to make. But Jesus, The Very Word of God Himself, Providentially oversees the preservation of His own Word. And notice too Jesus said they were mistaken and didn't understand. The pharisees were known for seeing scripture through the lens of tradition. Everyone has tradition. Don't think you have none. Your "progressive or rethinking mentality" is your lens. The trick is having a biblical lens. Any paradigm or "lens" that is higher than scripture becomes your highest authority. Gods Word is my highest Authority because God is my Highest Authority.
🎙 Check out our Podcast on all streaming platforms at blakefine.org/rethinkingchristianity/
💌 ReThinking Christianity Newsletter blakefine.org/rethinkingchristianitynewsletter/
📲 Follow us on Instagram & TikTok instagram.com/rethinkingchristianitypodcast/
www.tiktok.com/@rethinkingchristianity?lang=en
🏅Venmo account.venmo.com/u/Blake-Fine
Thank you
Thanks for this conversation!
Thanks again for coming on!
Tom, it sounds like you’re not convinced by any current atonement theories, I’m wondering if there is a current theory of atonement that you think is the closest to “getting it right.” Anything stand out? Appreciated this conversation and how approachable/ easy to understand it was.
@@stark_raving_dad Thanks for the question. I think Abelard gets it partly right. But I think we need more than an example we can witness, we need empowering moment by moment. And I think a good atonement theory looks for the transformation of all creation, not just humans. But that's the best I've got (other than what I said in the interview).
@@ThomasJayOord Thanks Tom for the response and the interview. Appreciate your insights!
Good stuff! Thx. Gonna buy some of his works. I also have been thinking along these lines. 😊
Could you please give us a reference for this supposed quote from Augustine? I find often people either don't understand and therefore are not intending to misquote or purposefully take quotes out of context. So please, I need to know where this is at, this "use your brother". I've searched on everything I can find. The berean in me requires I see if it is so.
Oord thinks that HE decides what is good and evil and has the authority to tell God how to behave.
I am what you guys would-I assume- call fundamentalist. I am not what I so often hear casted. I didn't grow up in the church. I didn't go to seminary-at least didn't finish anyway, and I believe what I believe because I love Christ Jesus above all things. I love the scriptures because they are Theopneustos-God Breathed. I am more like John Piper than some raving KJVonly nutjob. Everything I beleive about everything is derived from the Bible. I am 54, saved at 17 and I did have a rough patch for a short time but for the most part of the last 37 years I've been all out for the Lord. God has sustained my faith. I do my best to listen to others and even if I am offended by the perspectives of others', I still want to be sure that I am not misunderstanding, misrepresenting and therefore lying about others. I am not afraid to hear the other side. If what I believe is true, then it can stand up to scrutiny. And it has. I don't believe that What Mr Oord has said here for the most part stands up to scrutiny. I love this God whose Name he just maligned. I can tell he doesn't know the languages well enough to be making claims of authority like 'Shaddai means breasts'. That is despicable. I have many times seen people, even those with doctorates making bold claims when all they've done is look at a strongs concordance or some other concordance or lexicon and pick the option or meaning they like the most. Thats not how symantecs work. Take the word Love like he did. I love my wife. I love apple pie. Could someone a thousand years from now claim that the same word was used for my love for pie as for my wife, and that since I added a few other words like, awesome and tasty, it is clear I loved food more than my wife?! No, I think we can see the difference. Words have different meanings in different contexts. Also in our culture they take on different understandings. The scriptures are indeed Gods word. Matthew 22:29-32 Jesus said, But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Notice he makes His point based on the tense of the verb. where God IS the God of the living...32 " ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..." the AM is what everything resides upon. If the scriptures had said "I was or I will be, or something along those lines, it wouldn't have made the point Christ needed to make. But Jesus, The Very Word of God Himself, Providentially oversees the preservation of His own Word. And notice too Jesus said they were mistaken and didn't understand. The pharisees were known for seeing scripture through the lens of tradition. Everyone has tradition. Don't think you have none. Your "progressive or rethinking mentality" is your lens. The trick is having a biblical lens. Any paradigm or "lens" that is higher than scripture becomes your highest authority. Gods Word is my highest Authority because God is my Highest Authority.