fifa street 1 and 2. Is fucking awesome, and most of EA big (the developer ea big) games at the time had the same concept of "lets make this sport looks like some anime battle shit that is super cool". Also your channel is goat dude
Pyre definitely should have gotten a mention. I sometimes wonder how far that game would've gotten if it had online multiplayer. Also, I think Blitzball is a little farther along the Fantasy spectrum.
Ya know, if you want RUclips to do that more often, you could also do a funny little thing called subscribing. (This advertisement is in no way affiliated with the RUclipsr Leon Massey)
@@philiphunt-bull5817It's in a different way for sure, but...EA Sports UFC and Fight Night are both sports games and fighting games, so why not Lethal League?
@@kfcnyancat For me, it's because I feel like those titles put more focus on being sports simulators than games. They're so different from the leaders of the fighting game genre in style, design, and culture that there just isn't much overlap between the audiences' tastes. Lethal League, on the other hand, has fighting game DNA. It's basically an airdasher, closer to Guilty Gear than any real racket sport. It was born and raised in the world of fighting games and feels more like a genre bend/blend than a departure. In a world without Street Fighter, combat sport games like Fight Night would still exist. Lethal League wouldn't.
The ball as a neutral medium is something i never thought about. It introduces a new factor into the mix about offence and defence. Like how in counter strike as soon as the bomb is planted the attackers become the defenders. In sports games the switch just happens as soon the ball leaves your possesion. Banger video btw I'm glad i found this in my recommendations.
Dw longer stuff is coming, probably not in the hour range but definitely in the 20+ minute range. Saving most of that stuff for closer to December tho, gotta optimise that ad revenue after all.
11:55 Personally, I found I enjoyed Omega Strikers a lot more once I came at it from the other angle, that is "moba with some sport" rather than "sport with some moba." Taking it for what it actually is instead of what it presents itself as/what I saw it as. At least, that's just my opinion.
Omega Strikers has a had a lot of talk about how lethal it is compared to controlling the core (ball, puck, w/e). I agree and I don't know how the dev team is gonna deal with it, but the game is still fun and worth a try considering it is free. I really enjoy the team aspect and positioning, be it to kill or passing to score. Was thinking of this game since the video started and sad to see it didn't mesh, great vid as usual tho! Just happy OS got mentioned tbh.
My gripe when i played Omega Strikers (at least back on launch) was that getting those maps with a lot of walls or gimmicks felt like shit, and that 3 assasins deleting an enemy from the start was too strong a strat for casual play, which the game sorely lacked
KLONOA MENTIONED WOOH Charged really did go all in on the value of interacting with the mechanic, not only does the ball end up at full power a GLORIOUS shining white that feels like a deadly entity heading towards a goalie but each pass that powers it up from base power has a rising pitch. This means that if you and a teammate want to rapidly power it up before a shot at the goal, you get this glorious rapidly rising pitch of absolute ecstasy that makes me want to send a metal sphere through a crocs head.
Lethal League Blaze is one of my favorite games of all time glad to see someone talk about it even if only for a little, even cooler is that hyhy one of the most awesome Blaze players in featured in the footage thank you very much Leon Massey for making such cool and fun to watch content would love to see you cover Lethal League Blaze more in any possible way. Much love and stay safe and happy out there
The moment you started to go through about the neutral middle ground aka the soccer ball that has to be interacted by both sides, I thought to myself “lethal league?”. Great video as always Leon!
Understandable that you didn’t mention Inazuma Eleven on account of its incredibly niche status, but it’s a very interesting take on the Sports Fantasy genre that blends soccer with real-time RPG elements. I’ve never seen something as uniquely creative as that but it works really well. I’d recommend checking it out if that sounds even remotely intriguing or even just odd to you.
Love to see an analysis like this on sports fantasy titles! Though one disagreement about Omega Strikers: I feel like the neutral nature of the puck (core) is still felt pretty well despite the focus on Avatar and Method. There are moments where a well timed energy burst to stop the core and give you complete control can quicky turn into you accidentally giving the opponent the time they need to set up an unsavable goal. Or situations where sending the core at too high a speed towards a goal lock can quite literally backfire into your goal. There's also times where you will intentionally unlock your own goal, something that the opponent would normally want, but use that to set up a goal; which is only possible thanks to the neutrality of the core. (oh and don't ask me why there's an XP system I think it's just a positive feedback loop to make MVPs more obvious)
that's what i find so captivating about the campaign modes in proper sports games, especially in nba since basketball is my favorite - it's that fantasy element, putting myself into the world of sports, going full ape mode rpg with stats and shit and just building a character, figuring out a playstyle for that character and living out a fantasy. I'm not playing nba2k to simulate real world, i'm playing to simulate things that would be **impossible** in real world.
I think there’s something to be said for standard sports simulators. For certain types of gamers such as you and I, they tend to fall flat, but I’ve actually found value in them as just that: simulators. I was playing ultimate frisbee with some buddies last year and asked one who was particularly adept how he always seemed to be exactly where the frisbee ended up going. He just shrugged and said “idk, I play a lot of Madden I guess”. It made me realize that 1:1 sport simulation games are phenomenal for teaching game awareness without being limited by physical ability or having to scramble together enough other players to experiment with a full match. It actually convinced me to buy FIFA because I wanted to get better at IRL Soccer and it genuinely helped me understand the flow of the game from a broader, more fundamental perspective. Extremely useful tool in that regard, but at the end of the day, that’s just a type of training. When it comes to fun, I’d much rather play something more along the lines of what you talked about in this video.
Shoutouts to game modes that aren't emulating sports but are structured like "sports games". Pikmin 4's dandori battles are competitive collectathons with items strewn across the level but you can steal from enemy convoys. Catherine: Fullbody's pvp is a puzzle tower-climbing race where you can block off your opponent from above or demolish their solid ground from below.
8:00 the second you began this explanation, I knew you were going to mention LL Blaze. I had the biggest smile on my face when you did. Such a cool game Oh wait I didn’t notice/forgot it was in the thumbnail lol
I love these types of games, theyre genuinely some of my favs, but finding a friend who will sit down and play these with me is difficult, especially for older games like mario strikers.
Really great video. This does a great job putting into words what I've felt passionately about as an indie dev: There's a world of opportunities to make sports games tailored to the medium of games, rather than simply emulating what exists in real life. Games like Rocket League, Pyre, and Tape to Tape are great examples and I look forward to seeing and being part of creating more. I love how you highlighted the importance of a neutral object through which both teams interact. It adds a sort of indirect competitive aspect that, when combined with physics, leads to funny and surprising moments like own goals and crazy ricochets.
Love seeing Lethal Leauge, Roller Champions mentioned. I think if it wasn't for the horrible launch seperation across platforms, and lack of advertisement it could've been pretty big. Lethal leauge is both type of game, and while it's connections to the FGC are how I got into it, and give some of it's charm the fact that it is seen only as a wierf fighter, and not even consifered as sport most of the time really kills it (also, creators just released Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Check it out) (JSR style, with tony hawk, skates, and BMX (even walking))
Mario Strikers Charged is one of my favorite games of all time. If you want to see Waluigi build a box of walls, trap himself inside, score 5 goals, and then *checks notes* gesture to his crotch? Then it's the game for you.
I think another really important aspect of how fantasy sport games simplify sports is that a lot of rules in real life sport aren't for the benefit of the game as such, the parts that test skills or place restrictions players have to work around. Lots are just for dealing with the limitations of reality- either rules to make enforcing rules simpler for the ref/umpire/whoever's in charge (the balk in baseball comes to mind) or rules to protect the squishy players (illegal strikes in MMA, stopping the game when someone's pretending to be hurt in football, etc.) These rules are obviously good and necessary (well, maybe not that last one) but that's all they are- necessities. They only make the game better in that they make it possible for humans to play them. And in the fantasy space of video games, where it's not possible to cheat in a way the game doesn't expect without hacking, or where injuries can be ignored or shrugged off or incentivized based on what kind of game you're making, where you can put a magic force field around the pitch and not have to worry about any out of bounds rules, there's no reason to replicate those "necessary" rules other than a mindless desire for realism.
I think about this subgenre of games all the time: Fifa Street, Speedball, Mario Sports, Mutant Football League/Blood Bowl, Kunio-Kun Dodgeball. Wish devs were be able to exercise a bit more creativity when it comes to sports games.
The diagramming of the 5 components of a game and the difference between a traditional fighter and sports game is mindblowing. That'll stay in my head for a long time. Great video!
When I woke up today, I didn't expect Leon Massey to release a 15-minute video exclusively discussing the niche indie game-within-a-game Rivals of Tether. And yet here we are.
i figured nfl street wasnt going to be mentioned but was surprised at the lack of mario hoops 3on3 and the use of nba street one over vol 2. amazing vid nonetheless
Good shit as always. When you identified that part of what makes sports "sporty" is the way that teams specifically interact through a neutral object (and/or mechanic?), a switch flipped in my brain!
I used to play this game on the ps1 called Rageball. It was like handball/football but with a lot of violence, superpowers and environmental hazards. Really wish it would be talked about more. Great video as always!
Man, I thought this was going to go in a completely different direction. I have LOVED sports RPGs ever since I played Mario Tennis for the Game Boy Color back in the early 2000s. I was hoping you would list out more games that take that formula and instead of turning a sports game into a fighting game, turn a sports game into a JRPG. But I guess this is you, so I shouldn't be surprised, eh? Oh well, maybe someone else will make that video...
Heavy Smash (Data East) was my first experience in the arcades with Fantasy/ futuristic soports, and since then i have been a huge fan. Looking foward to Super Buckyball Tournament
leon i love you i rewatched the skateboarding video a few days ago to get myself hyped up again for bomb rush cyberfunk (it's sick as hell btw) and now you drop another banger? let's goooo B)
I'm away for today so I only got to play an hour of it before I got on the train but GDODNFHOSNGEKFBKFJDG what I played of it was great, I reckon it's gonna play very differently to what I was expecting but I loved the hour I got of it
@@LeonMassey I'm in the same boat, it released at 4pm so i only got about an hour in before i had to go get dinner, but it's even better than i was expecting so far and it definitely feels worth what i paid for it on release
Another element of sport games that goes unmentioned here but I think is really unique and amazing is non descrete input. It's not universally present in the subset of games looked at in this video, but the overlap is pretty big. Like rocket leage for example: there's no shoot ball butten in rocket leage, there's only drive, boost, jump and flip buttons and it's up to you to create the action of "shoot" from these basic building blocks. The obvious logical wholes of interacting with the world (shooting the ball, hitting your oponent, climbing) aren't given direct inputs, but rather the component actions creating those are (driving + jumping, clenching a fist + swinging your arms, reaching out + grabbing), thus giving executing the logical wholes this air of skill and finesse. Kinda like the difference between clicking a button to cast a spell in Hogwarts Legacy and casting 7 smaller building block spells that interweave to create one really cool spell in Magicka.
Nice vid, suprised you didnt mention Pyre. It's the previous game from the devs of Hades, and its kinda like if you mixed NBA with Magic and a Visual Novel. It's pretty gas
Your thoughts on the inclusion of neutral elements that can be influenced by players to varying, sometimes hilariously detrimental results, are very interesting. I think that's a big part of why I enjoy and appreciate the inclusion of the "extreme battle" mode to Street Fighter 6. Nothing rejuvenates the fun in a lobby night with your mates like dropping a rampaging bull into the mix
I love both sides. While Nba Street is a cray sports fantasy game that still implements the complex strategies of basketball in little bite size moments, and I'll never stop playing it, sometimes I like to visit the 2k and early NBA Live titles for the more simulation feel where I have to worry about so many more aspects. Manipulating the floor to give a driving lane or managing player stamina with substitution, setting up pick and rolls. All these things make me feel like a spectator, coach, and player all at once. Its almost like someone being really good and knowing all the shortcuts and shit on mario kart, but also being able to manage a 3 hour long race with pit stops and tire wear on Iracing. Both really fun for different reasons!
Considering most of these fantasy sports games were products of the 2000s up to the 2010s, I wonder if that means that game development was had more room for innovation, or studios had wiggle room to experiment more. Not to say we dont get "sports, but funner" now, Lethal League and Rocket League are some modern examples, but as you mention, this "genre" isn't too popular _or_ prevalent nowadays, at least outside the car-shaped exception This is a long winded way to say "buy more Lethal League and gift them to your friends, so we can get Lethal League Fr33z3"
Surprised no Windjammers mention! Otherwise excellent vid, even from someone who likes sports and sports games, you make great points (and why I’m sad new Super Strikers was middddd)
Me at the start of the video: Please talk about Pyre. Me halfway through the video: Pretty please talk about Pyre. Me towards the end of the video: There's still time to talk about Pyre, right? Me after the video ends: 😥
Leon NEEDS to make a video on Jet Set Radio Future (JSRF) or the spiritual successor that just came out, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk. I feel like he could make a really good video on it, on top of enjoying it a lot as a "Sport Fantasy" type game.
"You can't have a big titty mod for your cars" I don't know about that. Anyone in rocket league would salivate at the thought of having a massive rear end or a massive front end to slam with.
Another banger! When it comes to Soccer games that ignore rules to be more fun as 'games' it reminded me of the Game Grumps having a shit ton of fun playing World Fighting Soccer 22.
Your ball neutrality definition of sports is a really interesting way to contextualize baseball especially, even though that wasn’t a sport in the video. The game is turn-based, but the offensive and defensive turns each either have control or the ball or the ability to score, never both. The defense controls the ball at all times unless it is being pitched, making contact with the bat, or flying through the air after contact. However, this control is a responsibility and not a privilege because it is totally impossible for the team on defense to score. Of those three ball states where the defense is not in control, the offense only gains control for the instantaneous moment where the bat makes contact with the ball, and when it’s in the air after being either thrown or hit, it is neutral. Those moments of neutrality come in extremely short bursts (a pitch takes under a second, and a ball is rarely in play for more than 5 seconds or so), but they are the only times when the offense can make progress towards scoring runs. Because a pitch takes so little time, the offense’s goal is not to take control themselves, but to use their tiny instant of control during the pitch to buy a couple seconds of ball neutrality so they can run to the next base. The defense has all the control but none of the power, so they need to make those mandatory moments of neutrality as short as possible through good pitching and fielding. This balance between control for the defense and scoring power for the offense makes it possible for a sport where the defense controls the ball almost the entire game and the offense fails to accomplish anything at all in almost 70% of their chances (or something closer to 95% of you count pitches instead of batters as “chances”) to be exciting all the way through. The game is stacked against both sides, so the margin for error is so thin that any team could totally fall apart or miraculously bring everything together as a result of the smallest mistake. The game expects perfection, but no one can achieve that, so instead it’s a game of near-perfection from the defense just barely containing the chaos that the offense is desperately clawing at the seams to try to unleash. Baseball is cool, and I hope some part of that was coherent enough to convince you of that, because I’m not proofreading any of what I just wrote.
I'll be honest and say games like fifa street I always kinda looked over since I thought they were just street rules version of the sport, but seeing you talk about it there's a lot more than I expected. makes me want to check it out actually. Also great editing on this one, lots of fun little details.
There's a french show called Foot 2 Rue (Street Soccer or something similar) that I enjoyed a lot when I was a kid. One because the characters and the settings (orphans using street soccer as both a dream and escapism in rural Marseilles) were amazing. Two because the fucking matches were so sick. To this day I long for a game that can recreate such a free form version of soccer forever, Street Fifa being the closest to that.
That DP electric chair is one of the funniest visual gags I've ever seen. I also love the term "expression sport" when referring to shit like skateboarding.
Man this video was an absolute banger, really digging the new style! The artistic flair really brings the video together along with the creative concepts you bring together
One example that could've been useful to convince a good subsection of people would be talking about Grifball. It's not it's own game, but if there was anything out there that could express sports fantasy to your average older-than-25 FPS player, it'd be drudging up their memories of double XP weekend Grifball.
At the risk of sounding like a tool, everything I’ve watched from you is surprisingly intelligent, and I really enjoy looking forward to new content because even if it is about a topic I’m not really that interested in, I know you will present it in a way that makes it interesting. I really appreciate the work you put into this channel. Thanks.
Captain Tsubasa got screentime let's goooooooo As someone who never had interest in football/soccer it surprised me how much I love that game. It probably adheres to the rules of the sport closer than other fantasy sports titles, but at the same time it translates that sports anime hype and charm perfectly from its source material. I'm sure Fifa and it's contemporaries have player stats to strategize around, but nothing beats setting up a hyper-specific scenario with select players to pull off supers that recreate scenes from the manga. Or the stress in making sure your opponent can't do the same to you.
This is why I've always wanted a mario pro wrestling game Wrestling is based around twisting and bending reality with stage performance into something surreal and superhuman, so trying to replicate those exact things in a boring realistic simulator as if it was a normal sport seems antithetical to the concept, when something more bombastic and unrestrained would be closer to the actual spirit
A feature of real life sports that they get closer to implementing into games on purpose is rules flubbing. Videogames by their nature are constructed out of laws. A ref in a videogame will always notice an offsides penalty, or correctly place a downed ball in hand egg. But in real life there's a ton of vague wiggle room because of human error. I'd like to see a game where as you progress from minor to major leagues, the rules get tighter as the refs go from your uncle to someone's trained uncle. I know glitches in games exist but they follow their own corrupted laws.
This video reminds me of a weird obscure game I remember was a lot of fun, it was an Xbox exclusive for the original console, it's called Deathrow the cover art looked like garbage but it was like a combination of ultimate Frisbee and a brawler because you could win via scoring the disc into hoops or literally beating the shit out of the opposing team until they were all knocked out
Ever played Pyre? by the bastion/transistor/Hades fame? its pretty good example for this. (although it might be a bit too much of a visual novel to your liking)
As a guy who used to play Madden like crazy. I can honestly say that if someone never liked American football, just playing Streets or Blitz will make then love American football for the exact reasons you stated.
While I do love Sports Fantasy and played a couple of the games myself, I never could get into Rocket League. I tried it a couple of times, but every time I did, something felt off. I guess the physics of the game didn't feel fleshed out enough? I'm not exactly sure if that is the exact problem I have with the game, but when I bump into the ball it always feels like it is going in either the wrong direction to where I expected it to go, or with too much or too little speed, or both.
Awesome vid! Some of my favorite sports-them-ups is Push Me Pull You, Regular Human Basketball, and Knockout City. When they to REALLY WEIRD with the sports genre, I'm all in!
The crazy thing is his video essays aren’t completely unrelated, they follow a cohesive narrative. As he grows as a RUclipsr and someone who plays games so do we
I'm very happy for two reasons. Firstly that this was an excellent video to watch, but also secondly that it's not quite the same video that I've been writing on Rocket League and "real sports" games so I don't have to throw that in the bin haha
Nice video, however you didn't mention inazuma eleven. Therefore your point is void. Jokes aside the whole neutral medium concept is pretty interesting, I feel like it's still pretty common in most vs games, for example Fighterz dragon balls. Also totally agree on omega strikers, I've put a decent amount of time into the beta and tried the full release but I just wish there was more of a focus on playing with the core and not ko'ing your opponents.
Never seen this channel but because of this thumbnail I went and checked out the channel and saw the rest of them and I just have to say... "I like theses original thumbnails which also remind me of Desio? the Doom mechanic explains guy who has the sprites of the game with a yellow background
Great video as always Leon, you made some incredibly insightful and thought-provoking points, absolutely incensed that you gave sports fantasy this label when I *know* your ass has seen Battle Garegga (realtalk though I’d love to hear your take on the modern bullet hell shmup. The genre’s a window into a completely unique way to design great games, and they come with some pretty unique merits and design challenges. Channels like Bog Hog and the Electric Underground might be a good place to start for talking points?)
Yeah, these kind of games can be fun. NFL Blitz is a good one, if mostly because tackling someone in that game is super satisfying with the great sound design and the fact that you can suplex the opponent and shit when you tackle them. Also when the players aren't just farming for XP in MCC, Grifball can be a lot of fun (though idk if that truly counts being a separate mode in a FPS game).
![Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YsnLYxXESds/mqdefault.jpg)
How have you managed to convince me there's a Fifa game actually worth playing
I haven't, wake up
Holy shit you’re alive! Love your reloading vids man
Dude your reloading video is genuinely one of the best videos I've ever watched
Bro I'm gonna try that game
fifa street 1 and 2. Is fucking awesome, and most of EA big (the developer ea big) games at the time had the same concept of "lets make this sport looks like some anime battle shit that is super cool". Also your channel is goat dude
Honestly kinda shook Pyre was skipped over in this one as the furthest into fantasy sports could lean.
Pyre definitely should have gotten a mention. I sometimes wonder how far that game would've gotten if it had online multiplayer.
Also, I think Blitzball is a little farther along the Fantasy spectrum.
Yeah I was surprised too. Great game
Maybe he just hasn't played it
YEAH Pyre is my favorite of the genre, and the first one that came to mind when 'sports fantasy' was first mentioned. It's got a LOT to it as well.
Literally skimmed this video just to look for pyre
RUclips really wanted me to watch this one by recommending it the second it was uploaded
Ya know, if you want RUclips to do that more often, you could also do a funny little thing called subscribing.
(This advertisement is in no way affiliated with the RUclipsr Leon Massey)
9:55
I think it would be cool if the "Lethal League is a sports game" and the "Lethal League is a fighting game" people kissed.
The statements are not in conflict, and I don't understand why he acted like they are.
@@philiphunt-bull5817It's in a different way for sure, but...EA Sports UFC and Fight Night are both sports games and fighting games, so why not Lethal League?
@@kfcnyancat For me, it's because I feel like those titles put more focus on being sports simulators than games. They're so different from the leaders of the fighting game genre in style, design, and culture that there just isn't much overlap between the audiences' tastes. Lethal League, on the other hand, has fighting game DNA. It's basically an airdasher, closer to Guilty Gear than any real racket sport. It was born and raised in the world of fighting games and feels more like a genre bend/blend than a departure.
In a world without Street Fighter, combat sport games like Fight Night would still exist. Lethal League wouldn't.
lethal league is both sports and fighting game. i usually describe it as "dodge ball but you have to kill the other guy, and you have no boundaries"
wait until you meet my brother who calls Lethal League a party game
The ball as a neutral medium is something i never thought about. It introduces a new factor into the mix about offence and defence. Like how in counter strike as soon as the bomb is planted the attackers become the defenders. In sports games the switch just happens as soon the ball leaves your possesion.
Banger video btw I'm glad i found this in my recommendations.
15 minutes? Damn, I love my Massive Lion at least hour long! Thanks for video, great like always
Dw longer stuff is coming, probably not in the hour range but definitely in the 20+ minute range. Saving most of that stuff for closer to December tho, gotta optimise that ad revenue after all.
@@LeonMasseyget that bag, king
I won’t lie, I wasn’t expecting our boi to become the next FUNKe but this is clearly a good timeline.
Can’t wait for the sf6 video tho 🤤
It's appreciated, now we just need to find the next youtuber to take the Shammy path. if you know, you know.
11:55 Personally, I found I enjoyed Omega Strikers a lot more once I came at it from the other angle, that is "moba with some sport" rather than "sport with some moba." Taking it for what it actually is instead of what it presents itself as/what I saw it as. At least, that's just my opinion.
Omega Strikers has a had a lot of talk about how lethal it is compared to controlling the core (ball, puck, w/e). I agree and I don't know how the dev team is gonna deal with it, but the game is still fun and worth a try considering it is free. I really enjoy the team aspect and positioning, be it to kill or passing to score. Was thinking of this game since the video started and sad to see it didn't mesh, great vid as usual tho! Just happy OS got mentioned tbh.
My gripe when i played Omega Strikers (at least back on launch) was that getting those maps with a lot of walls or gimmicks felt like shit, and that 3 assasins deleting an enemy from the start was too strong a strat for casual play, which the game sorely lacked
KLONOA MENTIONED WOOH
Charged really did go all in on the value of interacting with the mechanic, not only does the ball end up at full power a GLORIOUS shining white that feels like a deadly entity heading towards a goalie but each pass that powers it up from base power has a rising pitch. This means that if you and a teammate want to rapidly power it up before a shot at the goal, you get this glorious rapidly rising pitch of absolute ecstasy that makes me want to send a metal sphere through a crocs head.
Lethal League Blaze is one of my favorite games of all time glad to see someone talk about it even if only for a little, even cooler is that hyhy one of the most awesome Blaze players in featured in the footage thank you very much Leon Massey for making such cool and fun to watch content would love to see you cover Lethal League Blaze more in any possible way. Much love and stay safe and happy out there
The moment you started to go through about the neutral middle ground aka the soccer ball that has to be interacted by both sides, I thought to myself “lethal league?”. Great video as always Leon!
Understandable that you didn’t mention Inazuma Eleven on account of its incredibly niche status, but it’s a very interesting take on the Sports Fantasy genre that blends soccer with real-time RPG elements. I’ve never seen something as uniquely creative as that but it works really well. I’d recommend checking it out if that sounds even remotely intriguing or even just odd to you.
For real, Inazuma is really the peak of fantasy sports gaming
ngl I kept expecting inazuma eleven to show up since there was some captain tsubasa footage and the two are pretty similar (I think?)
Love to see an analysis like this on sports fantasy titles! Though one disagreement about Omega Strikers: I feel like the neutral nature of the puck (core) is still felt pretty well despite the focus on Avatar and Method. There are moments where a well timed energy burst to stop the core and give you complete control can quicky turn into you accidentally giving the opponent the time they need to set up an unsavable goal. Or situations where sending the core at too high a speed towards a goal lock can quite literally backfire into your goal. There's also times where you will intentionally unlock your own goal, something that the opponent would normally want, but use that to set up a goal; which is only possible thanks to the neutrality of the core.
(oh and don't ask me why there's an XP system I think it's just a positive feedback loop to make MVPs more obvious)
Any kind of Lethal League Blaze appreciation is always welcome. Ain't Nothin Like A Funky Leon.
that's what i find so captivating about the campaign modes in proper sports games, especially in nba since basketball is my favorite - it's that fantasy element, putting myself into the world of sports, going full ape mode rpg with stats and shit and just building a character, figuring out a playstyle for that character and living out a fantasy. I'm not playing nba2k to simulate real world, i'm playing to simulate things that would be **impossible** in real world.
I think there’s something to be said for standard sports simulators. For certain types of gamers such as you and I, they tend to fall flat, but I’ve actually found value in them as just that: simulators.
I was playing ultimate frisbee with some buddies last year and asked one who was particularly adept how he always seemed to be exactly where the frisbee ended up going. He just shrugged and said “idk, I play a lot of Madden I guess”.
It made me realize that 1:1 sport simulation games are phenomenal for teaching game awareness without being limited by physical ability or having to scramble together enough other players to experiment with a full match. It actually convinced me to buy FIFA because I wanted to get better at IRL Soccer and it genuinely helped me understand the flow of the game from a broader, more fundamental perspective.
Extremely useful tool in that regard, but at the end of the day, that’s just a type of training. When it comes to fun, I’d much rather play something more along the lines of what you talked about in this video.
Shoutouts to game modes that aren't emulating sports but are structured like "sports games". Pikmin 4's dandori battles are competitive collectathons with items strewn across the level but you can steal from enemy convoys. Catherine: Fullbody's pvp is a puzzle tower-climbing race where you can block off your opponent from above or demolish their solid ground from below.
8:00 the second you began this explanation, I knew you were going to mention LL Blaze. I had the biggest smile on my face when you did.
Such a cool game
Oh wait I didn’t notice/forgot it was in the thumbnail lol
Really love the direction this channel is going, thanks massive lion
I love these types of games, theyre genuinely some of my favs, but finding a friend who will sit down and play these with me is difficult, especially for older games like mario strikers.
Really great video. This does a great job putting into words what I've felt passionately about as an indie dev:
There's a world of opportunities to make sports games tailored to the medium of games, rather than simply emulating what exists in real life. Games like Rocket League, Pyre, and Tape to Tape are great examples and I look forward to seeing and being part of creating more.
I love how you highlighted the importance of a neutral object through which both teams interact. It adds a sort of indirect competitive aspect that, when combined with physics, leads to funny and surprising moments like own goals and crazy ricochets.
Love seeing Lethal Leauge, Roller Champions mentioned.
I think if it wasn't for the horrible launch seperation across platforms, and lack of advertisement it could've been pretty big.
Lethal leauge is both type of game, and while it's connections to the FGC are how I got into it, and give some of it's charm the fact that it is seen only as a wierf fighter, and not even consifered as sport most of the time really kills it
(also, creators just released Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Check it out) (JSR style, with tony hawk, skates, and BMX (even walking))
Mario Strikers Charged is one of my favorite games of all time. If you want to see Waluigi build a box of walls, trap himself inside, score 5 goals, and then *checks notes* gesture to his crotch?
Then it's the game for you.
I think another really important aspect of how fantasy sport games simplify sports is that a lot of rules in real life sport aren't for the benefit of the game as such, the parts that test skills or place restrictions players have to work around.
Lots are just for dealing with the limitations of reality- either rules to make enforcing rules simpler for the ref/umpire/whoever's in charge (the balk in baseball comes to mind) or rules to protect the squishy players (illegal strikes in MMA, stopping the game when someone's pretending to be hurt in football, etc.) These rules are obviously good and necessary (well, maybe not that last one) but that's all they are- necessities. They only make the game better in that they make it possible for humans to play them.
And in the fantasy space of video games, where it's not possible to cheat in a way the game doesn't expect without hacking, or where injuries can be ignored or shrugged off or incentivized based on what kind of game you're making, where you can put a magic force field around the pitch and not have to worry about any out of bounds rules, there's no reason to replicate those "necessary" rules other than a mindless desire for realism.
I think about this subgenre of games all the time: Fifa Street, Speedball, Mario Sports, Mutant Football League/Blood Bowl, Kunio-Kun Dodgeball. Wish devs were be able to exercise a bit more creativity when it comes to sports games.
The diagramming of the 5 components of a game and the difference between a traditional fighter and sports game is mindblowing. That'll stay in my head for a long time. Great video!
When I woke up today, I didn't expect Leon Massey to release a 15-minute video exclusively discussing the niche indie game-within-a-game Rivals of Tether. And yet here we are.
i figured nfl street wasnt going to be mentioned but was surprised at the lack of mario hoops 3on3 and the use of nba street one over vol 2. amazing vid nonetheless
Good shit as always. When you identified that part of what makes sports "sporty" is the way that teams specifically interact through a neutral object (and/or mechanic?), a switch flipped in my brain!
I used to play this game on the ps1 called Rageball. It was like handball/football but with a lot of violence, superpowers and environmental hazards. Really wish it would be talked about more.
Great video as always!
Man, I thought this was going to go in a completely different direction. I have LOVED sports RPGs ever since I played Mario Tennis for the Game Boy Color back in the early 2000s. I was hoping you would list out more games that take that formula and instead of turning a sports game into a fighting game, turn a sports game into a JRPG. But I guess this is you, so I shouldn't be surprised, eh? Oh well, maybe someone else will make that video...
Heavy Smash (Data East) was my first experience in the arcades with Fantasy/ futuristic soports, and since then i have been a huge fan. Looking foward to Super Buckyball Tournament
leon i love you i rewatched the skateboarding video a few days ago to get myself hyped up again for bomb rush cyberfunk (it's sick as hell btw) and now you drop another banger? let's goooo B)
I'm away for today so I only got to play an hour of it before I got on the train but GDODNFHOSNGEKFBKFJDG what I played of it was great, I reckon it's gonna play very differently to what I was expecting but I loved the hour I got of it
@@LeonMassey I'm in the same boat, it released at 4pm so i only got about an hour in before i had to go get dinner, but it's even better than i was expecting so far and it definitely feels worth what i paid for it on release
you have accurately described why i am not still playing omega strikers and i didn't even think about why
Lethal league, Rocket League, and strikers charged have always been some of my favorite games. Something about this genre always sticks with me
Another element of sport games that goes unmentioned here but I think is really unique and amazing is non descrete input. It's not universally present in the subset of games looked at in this video, but the overlap is pretty big. Like rocket leage for example: there's no shoot ball butten in rocket leage, there's only drive, boost, jump and flip buttons and it's up to you to create the action of "shoot" from these basic building blocks. The obvious logical wholes of interacting with the world (shooting the ball, hitting your oponent, climbing) aren't given direct inputs, but rather the component actions creating those are (driving + jumping, clenching a fist + swinging your arms, reaching out + grabbing), thus giving executing the logical wholes this air of skill and finesse. Kinda like the difference between clicking a button to cast a spell in Hogwarts Legacy and casting 7 smaller building block spells that interweave to create one really cool spell in Magicka.
Nice vid, suprised you didnt mention Pyre. It's the previous game from the devs of Hades, and its kinda like if you mixed NBA with Magic and a Visual Novel. It's pretty gas
Your thoughts on the inclusion of neutral elements that can be influenced by players to varying, sometimes hilariously detrimental results, are very interesting. I think that's a big part of why I enjoy and appreciate the inclusion of the "extreme battle" mode to Street Fighter 6. Nothing rejuvenates the fun in a lobby night with your mates like dropping a rampaging bull into the mix
shoutouts to windjammers, honestly shocked you didn't mention it
I love both sides. While Nba Street is a cray sports fantasy game that still implements the complex strategies of basketball in little bite size moments, and I'll never stop playing it, sometimes I like to visit the 2k and early NBA Live titles for the more simulation feel where I have to worry about so many more aspects. Manipulating the floor to give a driving lane or managing player stamina with substitution, setting up pick and rolls. All these things make me feel like a spectator, coach, and player all at once. Its almost like someone being really good and knowing all the shortcuts and shit on mario kart, but also being able to manage a 3 hour long race with pit stops and tire wear on Iracing. Both really fun for different reasons!
Leon's animations continue to be an absolute joy
TLDR:
Balls in holes is fun when including fantasy
Considering most of these fantasy sports games were products of the 2000s up to the 2010s, I wonder if that means that game development was had more room for innovation, or studios had wiggle room to experiment more.
Not to say we dont get "sports, but funner" now, Lethal League and Rocket League are some modern examples, but as you mention, this "genre" isn't too popular _or_ prevalent nowadays, at least outside the car-shaped exception
This is a long winded way to say "buy more Lethal League and gift them to your friends, so we can get Lethal League Fr33z3"
0:06 But I liked my cleverly disguised excel
That's okay I have a mate who's also deep in the excel mines
Surprised no Windjammers mention! Otherwise excellent vid, even from someone who likes sports and sports games, you make great points (and why I’m sad new Super Strikers was middddd)
Windjammers is a classic, with Windjammers 2 being a great modern sequel.
And who could forget about Tekken Ball?
HOW DID I FORGET WINDJAMMERS AHHHHHHHH
How dare you. Repent!
Me at the start of the video: Please talk about Pyre.
Me halfway through the video: Pretty please talk about Pyre.
Me towards the end of the video: There's still time to talk about Pyre, right?
Me after the video ends: 😥
Leon NEEDS to make a video on Jet Set Radio Future (JSRF) or the spiritual successor that just came out, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk. I feel like he could make a really good video on it, on top of enjoying it a lot as a "Sport Fantasy" type game.
"You can't have a big titty mod for your cars"
I don't know about that. Anyone in rocket league would salivate at the thought of having a massive rear end or a massive front end to slam with.
Another banger! When it comes to Soccer games that ignore rules to be more fun as 'games' it reminded me of the Game Grumps having a shit ton of fun playing World Fighting Soccer 22.
8:09 I really like this analogy of fighting games and sports
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING ROLLER CHAMPIONS 💚
Your ball neutrality definition of sports is a really interesting way to contextualize baseball especially, even though that wasn’t a sport in the video. The game is turn-based, but the offensive and defensive turns each either have control or the ball or the ability to score, never both. The defense controls the ball at all times unless it is being pitched, making contact with the bat, or flying through the air after contact. However, this control is a responsibility and not a privilege because it is totally impossible for the team on defense to score. Of those three ball states where the defense is not in control, the offense only gains control for the instantaneous moment where the bat makes contact with the ball, and when it’s in the air after being either thrown or hit, it is neutral. Those moments of neutrality come in extremely short bursts (a pitch takes under a second, and a ball is rarely in play for more than 5 seconds or so), but they are the only times when the offense can make progress towards scoring runs. Because a pitch takes so little time, the offense’s goal is not to take control themselves, but to use their tiny instant of control during the pitch to buy a couple seconds of ball neutrality so they can run to the next base. The defense has all the control but none of the power, so they need to make those mandatory moments of neutrality as short as possible through good pitching and fielding. This balance between control for the defense and scoring power for the offense makes it possible for a sport where the defense controls the ball almost the entire game and the offense fails to accomplish anything at all in almost 70% of their chances (or something closer to 95% of you count pitches instead of batters as “chances”) to be exciting all the way through. The game is stacked against both sides, so the margin for error is so thin that any team could totally fall apart or miraculously bring everything together as a result of the smallest mistake. The game expects perfection, but no one can achieve that, so instead it’s a game of near-perfection from the defense just barely containing the chaos that the offense is desperately clawing at the seams to try to unleash.
Baseball is cool, and I hope some part of that was coherent enough to convince you of that, because I’m not proofreading any of what I just wrote.
I'll be honest and say games like fifa street I always kinda looked over since I thought they were just street rules version of the sport, but seeing you talk about it there's a lot more than I expected. makes me want to check it out actually.
Also great editing on this one, lots of fun little details.
The line 'enjoy the footie' is a rice purity test and i failed it
There's a french show called Foot 2 Rue (Street Soccer or something similar) that I enjoyed a lot when I was a kid. One because the characters and the settings (orphans using street soccer as both a dream and escapism in rural Marseilles) were amazing. Two because the fucking matches were so sick. To this day I long for a game that can recreate such a free form version of soccer forever, Street Fifa being the closest to that.
That DP electric chair is one of the funniest visual gags I've ever seen. I also love the term "expression sport" when referring to shit like skateboarding.
I recommend mario tennis aces. It’s a fighting game in disguise
Man this video was an absolute banger, really digging the new style! The artistic flair really brings the video together along with the creative concepts you bring together
One example that could've been useful to convince a good subsection of people would be talking about Grifball. It's not it's own game, but if there was anything out there that could express sports fantasy to your average older-than-25 FPS player, it'd be drudging up their memories of double XP weekend Grifball.
the models and animations are great, but I love that dithering effect, good touch
lethal league blaze mentioned, immediate watch
Only Leon Massey could make me give a shit about anything sports related
I don't know if you'll take it as a compliment or not, but your videos not dealing with fighting games are some of your best work. keep it up!!!
Who are you, FUNKe? I love this animation style it looks so good, very nice that you're using it, love your videos my guy
At the risk of sounding like a tool, everything I’ve watched from you is surprisingly intelligent, and I really enjoy looking forward to new content because even if it is about a topic I’m not really that interested in, I know you will present it in a way that makes it interesting. I really appreciate the work you put into this channel. Thanks.
Captain Tsubasa got screentime let's goooooooo
As someone who never had interest in football/soccer it surprised me how much I love that game. It probably adheres to the rules of the sport closer than other fantasy sports titles, but at the same time it translates that sports anime hype and charm perfectly from its source material. I'm sure Fifa and it's contemporaries have player stats to strategize around, but nothing beats setting up a hyper-specific scenario with select players to pull off supers that recreate scenes from the manga. Or the stress in making sure your opponent can't do the same to you.
This is why I've always wanted a mario pro wrestling game
Wrestling is based around twisting and bending reality with stage performance into something surreal and superhuman, so trying to replicate those exact things in a boring realistic simulator as if it was a normal sport seems antithetical to the concept, when something more bombastic and unrestrained would be closer to the actual spirit
A feature of real life sports that they get closer to implementing into games on purpose is rules flubbing. Videogames by their nature are constructed out of laws. A ref in a videogame will always notice an offsides penalty, or correctly place a downed ball in hand egg.
But in real life there's a ton of vague wiggle room because of human error. I'd like to see a game where as you progress from minor to major leagues, the rules get tighter as the refs go from your uncle to someone's trained uncle.
I know glitches in games exist but they follow their own corrupted laws.
This video reminds me of a weird obscure game I remember was a lot of fun, it was an Xbox exclusive for the original console, it's called Deathrow the cover art looked like garbage but it was like a combination of ultimate Frisbee and a brawler because you could win via scoring the disc into hoops or literally beating the shit out of the opposing team until they were all knocked out
Leon Massey is the best video game talker on RUclips, hands down
Really enjoying your use of the paper mario and the thousand year door soundfont. Love your video!
Ever played Pyre? by the bastion/transistor/Hades fame? its pretty good example for this. (although it might be a bit too much of a visual novel to your liking)
6:46 I know this has NOTHING to do with the video itself but seeing the Shy Guy be *extra* rude to that one Toad got me good.
The aesthetic of this video, chef's kiss.
i love seeing lethal league footage and saying ''yo i played that guy'' because the playerbase is so tiny
Bro, Lethal League Volleyball mode is so good I played it for hours with friends
As a guy who used to play Madden like crazy. I can honestly say that if someone never liked American football, just playing Streets or Blitz will make then love American football for the exact reasons you stated.
Bomb Rush Cybefunk is out, its as great as I expected.
Stepping into the electric chair for one second.
Lethal League Blaze: Strike
While I do love Sports Fantasy and played a couple of the games myself, I never could get into Rocket League. I tried it a couple of times, but every time I did, something felt off. I guess the physics of the game didn't feel fleshed out enough? I'm not exactly sure if that is the exact problem I have with the game, but when I bump into the ball it always feels like it is going in either the wrong direction to where I expected it to go, or with too much or too little speed, or both.
Awesome vid! Some of my favorite sports-them-ups is Push Me Pull You, Regular Human Basketball, and Knockout City. When they to REALLY WEIRD with the sports genre, I'm all in!
Thank you Leon for blessing my work day with content I'm bored outta my mind.
The Monkey Soccer mini game in Ape Escape 2 is secretly one of the greatest soccer games of all time.
The crazy thing is his video essays aren’t completely unrelated, they follow a cohesive narrative. As he grows as a RUclipsr and someone who plays games so do we
the monitor at 0:43 inflicted the psychic equivalent of getting flashbanged on me
I'm very happy for two reasons. Firstly that this was an excellent video to watch, but also secondly that it's not quite the same video that I've been writing on Rocket League and "real sports" games so I don't have to throw that in the bin haha
Nice video, however you didn't mention inazuma eleven. Therefore your point is void. Jokes aside the whole neutral medium concept is pretty interesting, I feel like it's still pretty common in most vs games, for example Fighterz dragon balls.
Also totally agree on omega strikers, I've put a decent amount of time into the beta and tried the full release but I just wish there was more of a focus on playing with the core and not ko'ing your opponents.
those rl cam settings are crazy
the main thing i got from this was you sharing my exact thoughts on omega strikers so good job i guess
Everytime Leon says the word "meter" the little goblin in my brain screams
Love SSX and Burnout, still hoping for a revival
This are some of the most gamey as games ever made and they're amazing
Shouout to that Captain Tsubasa game, that thing activates my neurons
I played the hell out of nba street as a kid didn’t even know fifa street exists. Looks absolutely amazing
Never seen this channel
but because of this thumbnail
I went and checked out the channel and saw the rest of them
and I just have to say...
"I like theses original thumbnails
which also remind me of
Desio? the Doom mechanic explains guy who has the sprites of the game with a yellow background
Great video as always Leon, you made some incredibly insightful and thought-provoking points, absolutely incensed that you gave sports fantasy this label when I *know* your ass has seen Battle Garegga
(realtalk though I’d love to hear your take on the modern bullet hell shmup. The genre’s a window into a completely unique way to design great games, and they come with some pretty unique merits and design challenges. Channels like Bog Hog and the Electric Underground might be a good place to start for talking points?)
Yeah, these kind of games can be fun. NFL Blitz is a good one, if mostly because tackling someone in that game is super satisfying with the great sound design and the fact that you can suplex the opponent and shit when you tackle them. Also when the players aren't just farming for XP in MCC, Grifball can be a lot of fun (though idk if that truly counts being a separate mode in a FPS game).
this video coming out the same day as Bomb Rush Cyberfunk is pretty funny