ICF Wall failure then Repair.(DON'T DO THIS EVER!!!!)
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- Опубликовано: 5 дек 2019
- This video is about an ICF foundation that was backfilled before the modular house was set on it. Heavy rain had washed clay dirt against the wall up near the top. I put this video together to maybe prevent someone from experiencing this problem. I highly recomend to always backfill with a stone drainage plane against the wall and fill the rest of the over dig with gravel or sand. This gives any surface water a place to go to get to the perimeter drain. Your foundation will be damp if backfilled even at the top with clay dirt. I have a system for backfilling foundations but I can't always go back to the project during the process. Any questions feel free to message me. Thanks for the support and I hope you can learn from my videos.
Man, that’s a nightmare! You guys did a super job with the repair and made the client good. You guys are awesome!
Thank you. It did suck though
thanks for sharing that lesson's learned. As we use to say in my business ''learn from mistakes of others cause you won't live long enough to make them all yourself''
Yes for sure. Lol
The lessons learned videos can be the most valuable of all. I don’t want someone going through that crap like I did.
Thanks for the comments 👍
I was taught to never backfill until the first-floor joists and decking were in, which seems to be doubly true with ICF wall construction.
Yup. This was a modular home so house should have been set on first.
Building always has an element of what can go wrong will go wrong... details are killer important. Thank for this lesson - highly valuable.
Ouch, not enough people show the whqt could go wrong. Thank you for sharing and educating others.
I had my reservations about that excavator by the conditions you were forced to work in during your own course of the job. You are more than fair and we enjoy very much watching your videos. You have way more patience than I sir. Much respect
Man that hurts. Good lesson for everyone who didn't know that you can't have 20,000 lbs of water pushing against a uncured, unbraced foundation wall I guess.
You would be surprised at what people dont know. 👍👍
I have always always said control the water all the times before - during construction and even after building to protect from wash outs - muddy work conditions and even frost damage. A message from Captain Hindsight ! ! !
Capt Hindsite love it
Great rework! Glad that you showed it to us. Always better to learn from a mistake
Glad you enjoyed it! yes you do not want to be in this situation. lol
I am saving this video so that I can show it to my customers that don't believe that hydrostatic pressure is a REAL thing. There no substitute for waiting for the concrete to cure, installing the floor system and using clean stone gravel for back-fill.
Thanks for sharing. First video of its kind. Great recovery.
Thank you but it sucked. LOL
Stellar video. Very informative
Thank you.
Hi Bondo. Your a Good Man for fixing for n/c. That excavator was LUCKY!
Thanks uncle Jim. I agree. And it was a real pain in the butt. LOL 👎👎
Let's get that roof on the cabin. I'll come up..... LOL
I got the metal on it yesterday uncle Jim. Gonna throw it up there in the next few days. I’ll video the progress. 👍👍
The person that backfield that should pay for that 100 percent. Backfill happens after first floor and floor sheathing goes on always. You're a lot more composed than I would be. I'd be flipping out.
Every time I have seen a wall that thin and built deep or long, it has always had a buttress a couple of feet thick placed on the inside or outside of the wall every few feet (around twenty) to give it extra strength against the pressure of the soil on the outside even when crushed rock and filter fabric is used to keep the soil away from the wall and allow the water to quickly drain away.
This wall was built to the specs from the manufacture of the product Nudura. The wall should have not been backfilled without the modular house on there and clay soils should not have been used. We call those pilasters. They may have helped but we never have any problems if backfilling properly.
Thanks for the feedback buddy. 👍
@@bondobuilt386
I understand but I am the type of person, slightly paranoid, who tends to overdo things to get that extra just-in-case safety factor in everything I do. I have never done building construction like you do or for a living but one time I built a small storage building for a guy in his backyard that stood up to all of the winds we get; we can get straight line winds equal to a catagory one hurricane that will relocate anything not securely anchored and blow big trucks on their side and blow down signs and power lines from time to time.
After about ten years he moved and took the storage building with him. I learned later that my name was used as a curse a time or two as they were getting un-anchored from the ground. If they had called I could have told them the easier way to do it but they did not and had to figure it out themselves.
@@oldtimefarmboy617 never hurts to overbuild some things but cost is a factor as well. I tend to go above and beyond to prevent this type of problem but I can’t be everywhere. They backfilled when I was hunting in a different state.
@@bondobuilt386
I understand. My father has been a farmer for 59 years and understand the need to balance the "should be done" against what the customer is willing to pay. It is simply a fact of life that lots of customers do not and will not understand, in your business, that a few extra Benjamins can make the difference between a house that will be trouble free for the rest of their life and beyond and paying a lot of Benjamins to fix what could have been avoided when it was built.
My question now would be, will the person who failed to back fill the wall to specifications have to eat the cost or are they going to stick you with the bill for the other persons screw-up?
@@oldtimefarmboy617 it cost us both money for his mistakes. I fixed the wall for free. He dug it up and did the backfilling over again with stone.
Since the wall isn’t actually waterproofed. It really needs water impermeable dimble barrier. That runner will fail, even in that rain the water would have went down to drain. Gravel all the way to within a foot or two of surface is ideal. Ice has more pressure if it’s 20 degrees.
Well done on getting fixed. :)
Richard Maunder thank you 😊
Except all ICF companies warn NEVER have a cold join @10:00 for below grade. Mono pour only.
@@TriDaddy Ya I wish there was another way to fix it.
I never back fill anything without a sub floor first.
I totally agree buddy. This was a modular so house should have been set first. Bad move to backfill it to soon. I was hunting out of state when I got the bad news call. 🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@bondobuilt386 who paid for u to redo? If u work with the contractor regularly puts u in a tuff spot. Maybe insurance paid?
@@bondobuilt386 how many day did you wait before you back filled?
@@antoniorosas1334 over 30 days.
No horizontal or vertical rebar?
Expansive clay soil and water caused the wall to blow out . Thanks for sharing. And you suggest to back fill with gravel or stone but not dirt. Thanks again
You poor bastard, damned good of you to repair it for them. Obviously it wasn't anything you did wrong. I'd hire you all day long!
Dang 2020 started early for you! Im planning on 12" thick wall on my uphill slope with heavy rebar. We want a brick veneer on that wall anyway so the thickness will serve dual purpose. I have my own bobcat excavator and skid loader and will do the back-fill myself (i do my own pond dams at our farm)
Ya Greg vthat was a bad day. LOL 12” wall will be super strong. I usually hang around and make sure they backfill properly but on this job I went hunting out west and got thge call that the excavater blew the wall. 👎👎 I liker a stone drainage plane against the wall.
ruclips.net/video/6JO8mMN53bE/видео.html
I always backed fill with stone 90% up the wall and we did it our selves after floor system was in place , no final backfill until upper walls and roof was dried in.
Yup I totally agree bud. I was in Mousouri when it was backfilled. I had to come home and fix it. ☹️
I've seen heartbreakers in different trades, but this is a big one.
Most ICF manufactures do not recommend backfilling without a floor system in place.
Mike Yazel I agree completely. The excavator guy thought he could get away with it. Bad move.
@@bondobuilt386 that’s why owners should communicate with the general contractor not the subs.
@@4philipp I totally agree. This job was a mess. No general contractor. The home owner just hired subs for the basement and septic and dirt work. Had many problems. Long story lol
Thanks for the comments 👍
That’s heartbreaking. Must have cost then a fortune to fix.
Yes it was a bad day to say the least. We fixed it with the excavator that backfilled it and didn't charge the customer. The customer bought the materials.
Bondo Built why would the costumer have to pay for any of that? The contractor messed up, they should have owned up.
@@IMWILDMAN yes I agree. I fixed it for free. That was what I felt was the right thing for me to do even though it was not my fault.
@@bondobuilt386 good contractor I would have done the same. Buildblock is popular here in New England. That wall would have cost me about 6k in materials (no Concrete or pump truck here) icf costs are pricey up this way
That must have been an interesting conversation with the homeowner to get her/him comfortable excepting the rest of the foundation! Who had to pay for that repair?
Seems like 60 foot long wall should be either thicker or have some insets/partion t walls to help brace. Still won't solve future cracking and water seepage though. Voice of experience. My house has 100 foot wall but 3 partition twalls that come in 12 feet to make room walls. Still had to dig it up and recoat it. Darn tar coating and corrugated pipe. Ought to be banned
What is the limit, length and height, for those walls? I know the wall will gain strength when concrete cures and the floor is framed but there must be some extra engineering for longer and taller walls.
532 👍's up BB thank you for sharing this 🤗
Not your fault. But good customer service should come back to you in the future. Word spreads.
Yes Michael I have already done more work for that customer. 👍👍
wow. queasy just seeing it happen.
Yes it was a gad call when I was in Missouri hunting and the excavator called me and told me. Ruinined my vacation. All I could think about.
How do you waterproof between slab and wall
@Bondo Built You mentioned 4ft of drain rock; a couple of follow-up questions:
* Was there a dimple board or other drainage plane for the above-gravel portion?
* Was the perimeter drain actually draining to daylight (or hooked to a temporary pump)?
* Was the drain schedule-40 or the black corrugated? The excavator was pretty ham-fisted, so if it was the latter I wouldn't be surprised if had already crushed it.
I'm glad you documented this. If I do an ICF basement and get any pushback from the GC or subs about doing it right, I'll just show this video :)
Probably overkill, but a nice system to approximate is this one: ruclips.net/video/r4GdEJal8KM/видео.html
James great questions buddy. I told the excavator to run 1 foot of clean stone to the top for a drainage plane. I always do this on repair work and new builds. I’ll send you a video of how I do this. The drain does go to daylight. This guy loves to use the black crappy pipe. I dig that up and fix it all the time. I made him use sewer and drain for the inner and outer drains that hooked together and then go to the solid green gasketed pipe that goes to daylight.
The drain was pulling water all the time. The wet clay pushed the wall in. No drainage plane was done at the top.
ruclips.net/video/6JO8mMN53bE/видео.html
@@bondobuilt386 Thanks that's a reasonable system. I think if it were me, I would use geotextile to slow dirt migration into the gravel layer, and ideally a dimple-mat over the waterproofing too. Cost adds up a bit, but fixing something later is a huge headache. Thank you for your videos, I'm learning a lot about ICF.
Thanks James. I have trouble getting customers to spend the extra to backfill these foundations like I want and its a battle with the excavation guys as well.to brind in the stone up in lifts to the top. They think im crazy and say Im over doing it. I like the way they did it on the video you showed me but those are 5 million dollar homes. The customers I deal with would never pay me for that. If it were my own house I WAS BUILDING I would do it just like that though. Great system right there buddy. 👍👍
I dunno wat went wrong but I've been working ICF for 3 years now my first project was a gigantic 500 by 120 shop never has dat happened wow
So the problem was mostly wet dirt being used as backfill for the top part?
The ICF basement that I am planning is smaller then this, however I want the inside walls also build with ICF instead of traditional framing. I am guessing but that should provide a lot more resistance to inward pressure.
Yes it was backfilled with wet clay towards the top. Also the modular house should have been seton there first before backfilling. Traditional framed house would want the deck on before backfilling and backfill with well draining materials. 👍👍
@@bondobuilt386 yes a deck at least is good. While my entire house will be ICF, I want the subfloor also to be poured ICF. That will give it a ton of stability and make it easier to build the ground level up
How did you prepare for your first ICF pour? I’m concerned about vibrating and blowouts. How do you fix a blowout?
Just don't have a blowout! Prior to your pour, go and watch a decent crew pouring ICFs and pay close attention to the guy vibrating. Even talk to him and get him to show you exactly how much to vibrate.
Why are you vibrating wall. I was thought never to vibrate icf? Just wondering your thoughts
We wait to the lo gest time possible before back filling. I must say tho that ur walls are not thick enough, in the UK an ICF basement wall would be, an outside core of 150mm, 200mm concrete, and a 50mm inner leaf.
Yes this was backfilled to soon for sure with wet soils. This was a modular home so the home should have been set on before it was backfilled. The wall thickness is engineered to Nudura spesifications. It is a 6” thick wall.
That’s not necessary if the concrete is correct and it’s engineered to be so. My basements only 6” thick also with 4500psi wall mix. It’s all good. Stone was used for backfill then 1-2 ft of clay with some grading. If you have a good dimple membrane and French drain then water can’t build up and you won’t get a hydrostatic pressure failure.
OMG... I assume they must have backfilled the first week after the pour?
I always worked on foreign cars and one day I had to do spark plugs on a E350 Ford bus. I thought you had to take the fuel rail off and when I did some injectors had stuck in the intake and I went ahead and changed the plugs. I went to start it and it had a rod knock. The fuel had drained from the rail into the spark plug holes and into the chamber. When I turned the motor over it bent the connecting rod. Lemme tell you, you start at the headlight and you don't stop till you reach the firewall. 1 week later i had it all fixed but I felt like such a Gdamned moron. I know how that excavator guy must've felt screwing it up. But you stick around and you fix it and move on with life.
What was the MPA of the first concrete and how old before back filling?
It was 3500 Lbs concrete. It was about 1 month old when backfilled.
I heard you mention hunting season. Did you get to go then??
That would suck.
I was in Mousouri when I got the news had to come home and fix the wall. 👎👎
So how does one make sure those new joints are not gonna leak?
We use a stick on membrane.
Damn, what a mess.
your not kidding it was for sure.
Well, that sucks!
Nice job, thanks for sharing. Who paid for the redo?
The cost was shared by all involved including me. 👎🏻
@@bondobuilt386 What a bummer! You had nothing to do with the way it was back filled unless they claim you never told them to wait until the house was set.
Tom it was a learning experience. LOL
Made a great video to help some poor fool from going through what we did. LOL
You cannot backfill until trusses are secured between the walls.
"That's how you do a repair. But I don't recommend it." Don't recommend doing the repair/don't recommend doing it as depicted, or don't recommend getting in that situation in the first place?
LOL I don't recomend getting in that situation at all.
Looked like they used tar as a waterproofing on the outside wall. Tar will ruin ICF. Big mistake. Should use poly wall liquid waterproof.
Hoss It was a peel and stick membrane. No tar was used.
I’m curious how many days on the cure? I’m guessing less than two weeks.
Hi Clinton. It was about a month old when it was backfilled.
@@bondobuilt386 thanks for sharing that makes me question my thoughts on cure timing. I would not have thought a month in it would have done that. Really shows how important other pieces of the puzzle fit together. Thanks again for sharing.
@@clintonboyer1217 you bet. I made this video to help people not have to go through this type of problem. Worst part is I knew better but you can’t always be there when other things are being done. If the modular house was set on it would have never moved. Also good free draining soils. 👍
1st mistake. He didn’t put a French Drain system in
2nd mistake. He didn’t put 3 different types of waterproofing membrane.
3rd mistake!!! Never backfill with dirt. He should have used some 8mm landscape fabric and 15 mm plastic to separate the dirt from the gravel and backfill gravel all the way to the top.
4th mistake is ….. he should of put another French drain in on ground level.
5th mistake is… he should of diverted the water away from the house!!!
Would of saved a ton of money if he took his time and thought everything through
How thick was the concrete in this ICF?
6" thick
How thick is that wall? 6 inch or 8 inch?
,
It was 6” thick wall.
Why wasn't the excavator using his thumb? That's what it's for!
This could have been avoided with a proper perimeter drain. And of course, not backfilling before the top of the wall is supported..
This foundation has a double perimeter drain with 4’ of crushed stone over it. Problem was it was backfilled to soon like vyou stated. also the top was backfilled with heavy wet soil that had a high clay content.
Thanks for watching👍
damm
sucked lol
Wow that’s expensive mistake for simply trying to move too fast
Pat absolutely buddy. 👎👎
so few horizontal rebar，and no pilar
there is a row of bar in every course 18” . more thben Nudura specs call for.
How did the financial responsibility for fixing this shake out? Any of this expense covered by insurance -- and if so, whose insurance?
The insurance was claiming act of god. We just split it up 3 ways and fixed it. Myself the homeowner and the excavator. I dont think it was Gods fault though. Lol
@@bondobuilt386 : Just my opinion, but it was easily the excavators fault. He's the one who backfilled the damn thing so early. And he didn't even do it right; I didn't see a lick of rock behind that wall when he was removing it. But you said that about the rock in the video. I didn't see any drainage tile (pipe) behind the wall either... Didn't he even add any drainage at the footer of that wall? That wouldn't have passed in Utah.
@@TrailTrackers there was pipe and about 4 feet of rock believe it or not. I wanted bank run gravel the rest of the way up but he put clay dirt on top of stone the rest of the way and it was wet to boot. Smh 🤦♂️ I’m glad it’s fixed. I just hope my video helps someone from not having to deal with that crap.
Thanks buddy. 👍
Terrible. Feel bad for you. Unrelated i know, but what is the core thickness?
6 inch thick bud. Thanks
How green was the concrete when it failed?
It was a month old.
@@bondobuilt386 How thick was the wall? 6"
@@justinfranks8222 Yes 6" wall but the problem was the backfill and the fact the house had not been set. Even a 10" wall would have failed in these conditions.
@@bondobuilt386 Yeah, the hydrostatic pressure. Like you said, backfill design would have helped. Also, if a subfloor was installed prior to backfill to help hold the top of the walls from folding inwards.
@@justinfranks8222 Ya it was a modular home so the entire house should have been set first.
You could put 1 million pieces of rebar in there you need to put drainage perimeter drain around that thing do you have no clue what you’re gonna do in the foundations gonna fail again
If I done nothing wrong and told them the diffrence about the clean stone and they didn't listen to my advise I would have made them sign a waiver Makin me nit resposunle
Matt I usually hang around for the backfill to make sure it’s done to my specs but I went hunting out west and he backfilled it while I was gone
Where are you working. We plan to build the house and we like the work you do.
We work in upstate Newe York. 45 minutes north of Syracuse. Thanks. 👍😊
Please don’t hire this clown he has no idea what he is doing , I watched all his videos and he’s clueless when it comes to building this clown is one of the reasons why we have building codes and building inspectors this video is a perfect example of what a screwup he is
Hope someone had insurance.
Bad day it was for sure. 👎🏻👎🏻
FUBAR EXCAVATING
Some times things are learned in life the hard way Jim. ☹️
not only clay and water...: 6" wall, long wall run, not much rebar, simply poor design and execution.
Why not use ICF for construction of the whole house?? This is something I will never understand, it’s people with “prison physics” in reverse. Skinny chicken legs and bulging muscle everywhere else...