Looks like you need a bore scope have a look inside the #3 cylinder before you pull it. Probably going to have to pull it regardless but be nice to know.
@@Failure_Is_An_Option And _MANY_ others by the look of it. You can ask one of those other people as well since the dude (Mathue) you're commenting to in my observation doesn't respond to comments in your vein.
Squatch, thanks for showing the differences between early and later style rocker arms. The early certainly look more robust and rebuildable. Id be worried about deformation on the the later two piece style when pressing the bushings in/out. Shame it sounds like you are still going to have to pull the head.
I am confident you can rebush that rocker arm but higher priorities are calling. The clacking noise is not there immediately so it may have something to do with heat. As the head heats up, the seat pocket may be enlarging and releasing the seat. Just a keyboard theory.
Before you remove the cylinder head, try measuring the pressure for each cylinder. This may not show the source of the problem (valve …, rings, pistons, rods, lubrication,…), but it may show performance difference between cylinders. There was at least one commenter who had a sparkplug problem. I was great seeing the use of your Engine Stethoscope Set.
This is a test that we used to use when diagnosing a rod knock, but it can often be used in other situations. Pull the spark plug on each cylinder one at a time (then replace it) with the engine running. If the knock goes away, you've found the problem cylinder. It works more often that you would think. If the rocker arm has a bushing, you can replace it. The manual tells you not to, because they assume that farmers will beat it out and hammer in a new one, which will mangle the rocker arm. If you chuck it up in the lathe and use your inside boring bar, you can cut the bushing out until it is foil thin. Then you can get the rest out with a pick or a screwdriver. Find the right bushing, heat up the rocker arm and put the bushing in the freezer, then install in the rocker arm No pressing it into the rocker arm, if doesn't go in with heat/cold, find or make another bushing that will fit.
You can re-bush that arm. I've done it. You just have to make some sort of "cradle" to support the part so that it does not bend or separate when you drive the old one out / new one in. Beware tho, as the two halves might have taken a "tweak" when they were welded originally - and they may spring one way or another, despite your efforts to keep them from bending or moving. An old timer showed me how he actually bronze brazed the seams before pressing the bushings out/in.
You pushed down on the valve in question by hand and it seemed very easy I know they don't run a lot of spring preasure but that looked a little weak might want to check further
It's just enough to make you nuts, I did like the valve grinding machine. I almost had one, an old gentleman was giving it to me and my buddy said what are you going to do with that it will just sit in your garage, so I past it up, even though once in a blue moon it would be handy, it was free! I kick myself for listening to my friend.
I’m watching this at work on my break, I had my fingers crossed for you so hard and when the noise was still there my heart sank for you! But you’ll get it whipped easy your diag skills are unmatched great work squatch!
My first thought was a collapsing lifter, ie hydraulic lifter, but then I heard there are solid cam follower lifters. May be a sticking lifter or valve not moving smoothly? I know you will find the cause and am looking forward to learning what was the problem. Thanks for sharing.
This gets better all the time Toby pull the plug and scope the head inside the cylinder look at the top of the piston and the valve seats while your looking rotate the engine, before you go looking ,run the engine until the noise appears and is loud then pull the plug look inside the cylinder with the bore scope check all of the above I mentioned
Never saw a even worn out rocker arm tick. But it definitely was worth a try. It still could be a loose valve seat. I am not confident in my idea that it is a slipped valve guide if it is not a valve seat. But what else could it be? Valve head hitting the piston would get worse by pressing against valve. And you would feel it when you turn the engine over. What a mystery. Oh I would use the cast rocker arms. But that is just me. You can shim the loose one but also you could braze the cast one to build up the end and machine it to fit. But that is a lot of work as you would have to press out the bushing then braze and machine followed by bushing pressed back in / replace. Another super long shot is the valve retainer half moons. Maybe the valve shaft is sliding in the valve retainers? Thanks again for the mystery. Question: what if everything checks out and you cannot find the problem? Will you just run it that way till it breaks or goes away? Try another head???
Of course you can bush the rocker arm. The best mechanics in history approached problems with the attitude of why can’t I! I once told a very reputable wizard that “they say you can’t do that”, his response was “who are they? It’s my shop, I’ll do what I want” I became a much better technician once I adopted his philosophy. Keep up the good work!
Use a borescope camera through the spark plug holes and check the condition of the valve heads and seats and you will see if anything has moved. Also check height of all the valve stems with a ruler and see if all are same height, if a seat has moved down you will find a lower valve stem. This knock sound maybe can be also a valve head rubbing on the side of the cylinder bore when it opens, if the valve is too close to it. Sometimes cylinder heads machining are not exact equal and changing the head could have caused the problem. With a borescope you will be able to see it also. Before pulling back the head out you have to check all easier options.
Ive heard that before and it was excessive valve guide clearance on exhaust valve in that particular case, I found it by pushing sideways on valves while running
Pull the spark plug wires, one at a time, while it's running. If the noise settles down on the dead cylinder, I would suspect a wrist pin problem. Bushing, pin, or piston. I've rebuilt several engines in my lifetime and had these quirks happen. Frustrating, yes. Just another challenge each of us go through in these journeys. BTW, your pole shed looks wonderful. I would like to have watched a similar video 15 years ago. I've done a lot of projects in mine. Keep up the good work, Squatch!
It sure seems something internal, temp related I’d almost try taking off the fan belt just to make sure something in the drive system isn’t resonating through the block
Excellent video did you check the spark plug on the rattling cylinder i have seen the electrode break and even the grounding tang on the end of the spark plug come off . Check the compression a loose valve seat should have lower compression pressure
Possible reason for the bushing in the welded rocker not being serviceable could be that in removing it the 2 halves do or risk losing their centering due to deformation when pressing out the bushing. It sounds as if they're hollow. One side can in part could be pushed in while the other can get pushed out, especially at the lip. The forged being a solid (thus heavier) pc would have no give.
Maybe make the bushing exactly like you want it, and then use it to push the other one out and maintain alignment and support the whole way while pushing the new one in.
My guess is the stamping bores are not full depth so pushing a bushing in our out will distort the stamping as there is no way to hold the center area so it is supported on the inside. Probably would have to cut the old bushing out then use a heat shrink fit to install the new one. I imagine that how they did it at the factory.
There is no doubt in my mind that you can rebus that rocker arm. Your skills are second to none. I feel bad about you having to go deeper into the engine to find the problem. You will get there. Very enjoyable video Toby. Thanks
Thanks Squatch, my grandfather had an H and a Super C. He used to say he loved plowing with his Super C and my Uncle Charlie ran the H. That H is gorgeous. Nice job 👍 with it. Can you see a scribed small line in the top of that valve by the retainer. Then watch it. If it doesn’t turn and/or doesn’t turn consistently then the guide is too tight. Good luck. 👍 Awesome machine 😊
What a find though. #3 rocker being worn by .013, yet #3 still making noise after rocker replacement. Has to be the seat. Eager to see your findings after head is removed. But wait! How about using a scope through the spark plug hole? Possibly you might see a loose seat? Thanks!
The spark plug holes on these are located a considerable distance away from the valves, with them being so far up in the combustion chamber dome/recession - but taking the manifold off and looking down the exhaust port would get you right there 👍
Thanks for the video Toby. I wouldn't blame yourself too much for not thoroughly checking for wear on the rocker arms. Like you said there was no prior noise to make you suspicious. Hopefully it's nothing major and didn't cause any damage to the head. Looking forward to the next video as always. Cheers
Like you I would try to replace the bushing in the rocker, but with a much better forged rockers , why not refurbish them and go with a much better replacement 👍
I actually really appreciate these videos where something goes wrong. I always learn a lot from watching them. I know it isn't fun for you, and it would be great if everything was good from the start, but there isn't as much educational value in it.
Squatch, You named the project "Preparation H" and did not think at lease one pain in the Ass would show up? Murphy will have his way. Good luck and God bless you all!!
Good to see you using the stethoscope. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve screamed at the screen to get one out when another uTube is chasing a knock.
Methodical troubleshooting is the only way to fix something. It's too bad you have to disturb the cylinder head but time and patience pays back double in the end. I believe you will be able to bush that worn rocker arm too!
I do think it would be prudent to do compression and leak down testing as well as borescoping that cylinder before you pull it apart. This can be turned into a valuable teaching moment for Squatch and the results you will expect and what it is all about so the average person will do some testing first instead of just ripping it down. I know you have done similar things in prior videos, but refreshers is always good
Well that kinda sucks but it gives your viewers some drama but I was really hoping that you nailed it with replacing the old rocker ! Now what do you think caused that one rocker to be so worn and the others to be within tolerances and what do you think would’ve happened if you left it as was? But this is a EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of why I love your channel and I know I speak for most of your viewers just when I thought I new it all You show us differences in 2 piece welded rockers and cast 1 piece rockers and that the rockers are in sequence that might not be the best description but I know you know what I mean 😀 But I can hardly wait for the mystery to be solved and hopefully it isn’t too costly 😀🇨🇦
The rockers in this engine, are they a singular part? Or are they a common number across several units? Other engines? The question I guess, is if you could find a good set of the stamped ones by waiting to keep the unit more OE ? Or is that even a concern for you? Gorgeous work sir, can’t wait to see it in the sun and your smile when you drive it. You seem to realy enjoy these old tractors. Good on ya! my Australian friend says….
Thanks! Yes, these rockers are quite common because they were used on the H as well as W-4 series tractors of the era. They built tons of them, so it's not very difficult to find spares :-)
I think that it's definitely a valve seat . It's just tight enough that it gets pulled back up in by the spring far enough that it isn't ticking when you first start it . But as soon as it heats up it starts to knock again .
Maybe it's just me and my tools but when I have taken a rocker shaft like that apart I can never get those circular clips back on. I remember once when it was late and cold and one went flying... (lost for months) If you re-bush or replace that rocker maybe you can show a trick or two with the clips. Too bad about that tick. Maybe you can get some good content from it in the end. You and Senior troubleshot that down in a matter of minutes!
I use a tiny flat screwdriver. Enter 1 end of the ring clip into the groove and gently pry the clip with the screwdriver against the end of the rocker shaft just enough to get the clip on the shaft. Push it on the rest with a heavier screwdriver. If you pry it too severely, it will open the clip up, easily fixed though.
Gotta be the valve seat at this point. The fact that it gets worse as it warms up kinda of solidifies that theory since the casting is expanding a bit and letting the valve seat rattle in the hole. The rocker may have added to the noise a bit, but not like it did after it ran for a little while. At least the head is nice and accessible, so no big deal with pulling it. Better to catch it now than have it drop a valve and destroy the engine.😱
As a test, how about removing that rocker arm and test running the engine to see if it still ticks. That would tell you whether it is a valve problem or not.
I’m not gonna claim to know everything. But I would have thought if the seat was moving deeper into the head, you would’ve seen a decrease in valve lash
I hate the bad luck for you! But the way I look at it is it’s going to be more content for everyone else to enjoy! I love old tractors especially ones with family history being restored and kept alive!
Excellent video Toby :) also not fun also like learning new things too and hopefully next video solved it maybe! Only thing come to me thinking why shave pinch in more foul that Number 3 valve have on near cylinder motor do problem and may cure it ! Shave part talking is cone on head and give try on and hope that helps out!
I work for a place that sells old Chevy truck parts. For the 216 and 235 six cylinder there are 4 sets of 3 rocker arms. 3 right intake, 3 left intake, 3 right exhaust, and 3 left exhaust. It's the only way to get the angles right as you work around the pillar posts.
Just a little thing I experienced in the same mode the bolts that hold down the rocker assemblies get distorted threads and lose their effected ability to to stay tight, that was on a big diesel Mack engine, and Mack does recommend you replace those bolts when re assembling them.
I was convinced it was the rocker too. Pulling the head is at least somewhat simple. Better than chain driven dual over head cams with variable timing.
The bush in the welded rocker may have an internal OD rib or bi-conical shape to hold it central when the two halves are pressed onto it,which will prevent it being pressed out. Or , the they are just concerned an inept mechanic will bend the rocker pressing the bush out due to supporting the rocker poorly in the press. The lateral strength of the welded unit will be less than the forged one.
Just a thought overnight. Any chance the valve has a sticky point? With the wear on the rocker bushing could that be caused by extra effort needed to move the valve? Just some thoughts and I am sure you will show the details of what you find. As always I appreciate watching you work on these old machines.
Pretty cool tool! I hope that the rocker arm is the end of it, and there isn't a further issue. I have seen LOTS of them [issues] while working on this D... Great video once again!
Hahahaha 👍 he has nothing but very cool tools from vintage cat wrenches to every vintage tooling machine for ground up restoration to home made 😆 think the only has to send heads out to be resurfaced 😀
Dang, so close. I was rooting for ya. I put together a MM R with the jug style blocks you are familiar with and one was bad and leaking coolant. I needed the winter off before I went back to tear it apart again…. Frustrating!
That is always my fear when I do a complete rebuild that something deep inside is not right and I have to take it all apart again. I hate rework when I spend so much time (like you have done) making sure everything is just right and then something comes up and bites you. Good luck on finding the issue.
I rebushed my super M rockers. I used McMaster carr bronze bushings and sized them to press into the rockers, left the ID a tick small and used a lapping tool with abrasive paste in a pistol drill to size them to the shaft after pressing them in. The originals are a pain to get out, FYI. Also, why not look in that cylinder with a boroscope before pulling the head.
@@squatch253 cool! You’re more than capable, get after it lol. I think I had to size ID, OD and length on the lathe. I don’t remember how I made sure they were centered when I pressed them in, may have turned up a steel sleeve to put in the press that was the right height to center them when they bottomed out on a flat plate… you’ll come up with a slick method I’m sure.
Have you tried looking into the cylinder with a bore scope? Head likely has to come off no matter what but atleast you might be able to see what’s going on and be prepared looking for parts or giving a machine shop heads up.
Icranked the volume up and pt my hearing aids on and Squatch your gunna have to pull the head to (a) fix the valve seat or (b) check to see if the bore sleeve is seated in the block side to side
It may not have been THE problem but it was A problem.
I'm looking on the bright side I get to see inside that motor one more time 😃
Easy to say when your not the one doing the work ☝️ 😝 not that I disagree 🤷♂️ jus’ saying ✌️
I was hoping it was the rocker arm bushing. Maybe take a look through the spark plug hole with a camera would show something
Looks like you need a bore scope have a look inside the #3 cylinder before you pull it. Probably going to have to pull it regardless but be nice to know.
Wow, it has that heavy tick even as it spins down after the ignition is turned off.
You pay for this? Really?
@@Failure_Is_An_Option And _MANY_ others by the look of it.
You can ask one of those other people as well since the dude (Mathue) you're commenting to in my observation doesn't respond to comments in your vein.
Good luck with the continuing investigation, Squatch 🤞
If anyone can find/cure the problem, it's you 👍
Squatch, thanks for showing the differences between early and later style rocker arms. The early certainly look more robust and rebuildable. Id be worried about deformation on the the later two piece style when pressing the bushings in/out. Shame it sounds like you are still going to have to pull the head.
I am confident you can rebush that rocker arm but higher priorities are calling. The clacking noise is not there immediately so it may have something to do with heat. As the head heats up, the seat pocket may be enlarging and releasing the seat. Just a keyboard theory.
It does seem to come and go as temperature changes. Could it be that the temperature change also occludes an oil passage or something?
I agree it looks like you can reboot that. Time to experiment and find out
Before you remove the cylinder head, try measuring the pressure for each cylinder. This may not show the source of the problem (valve …, rings, pistons, rods, lubrication,…), but it may show performance difference between cylinders. There was at least one commenter who had a sparkplug problem.
I was great seeing the use of your Engine Stethoscope Set.
Never owned a stethoscope, still use a screwdriver to my ear, never let me down👍🏻🏴🇬🇧
This is a test that we used to use when diagnosing a rod knock, but it can often be used in other situations. Pull the spark plug on each cylinder one at a time (then replace it) with the engine running. If the knock goes away, you've found the problem cylinder. It works more often that you would think.
If the rocker arm has a bushing, you can replace it. The manual tells you not to, because they assume that farmers will beat it out and hammer in a new one, which will mangle the rocker arm. If you chuck it up in the lathe and use your inside boring bar, you can cut the bushing out until it is foil thin. Then you can get the rest out with a pick or a screwdriver. Find the right bushing, heat up the rocker arm and put the bushing in the freezer, then install in the rocker arm No pressing it into the rocker arm, if doesn't go in with heat/cold, find or make another bushing that will fit.
I can TOTALLY relate to that you’re dealing with.
The clutch on my truck, I’m having ALL KINDS OF ISSUES!!!!
You can re-bush that arm. I've done it. You just have to make some sort of "cradle" to support the part so that it does not bend or separate when you drive the old one out / new one in. Beware tho, as the two halves might have taken a "tweak" when they were welded originally - and they may spring one way or another, despite your efforts to keep them from bending or moving. An old timer showed me how he actually bronze brazed the seams before pressing the bushings out/in.
Well, that's too bad. I was hoping with you that might cure it. Looking forward to the next episode already.
On the bright side, you have the only H with a built-in metronome. :D
Egg shaped rocker arm 😮😮 Glad you found it Hope it will be nice And quiet
You pushed down on the valve in question by hand and it seemed very easy I know they don't run a lot of spring preasure but that looked a little weak might want to check further
It's just enough to make you nuts, I did like the valve grinding machine. I almost had one, an old gentleman was giving it to me and my buddy said what are you going to do with that it will just sit in your garage, so I past it up, even though once in a blue moon it would be handy, it was free! I kick myself for listening to my friend.
I’m watching this at work on my break, I had my fingers crossed for you so hard and when the noise was still there my heart sank for you! But you’ll get it whipped easy your diag skills are unmatched great work squatch!
My first thought was a collapsing lifter, ie hydraulic lifter, but then I heard there are solid cam follower lifters.
May be a sticking lifter or valve not moving smoothly?
I know you will find the cause and am looking forward to learning what was the problem.
Thanks for sharing.
Many times, downward pressure with your hand on the rocker can identify the culprit. It's the first thing I do.
This gets better all the time Toby pull the plug and scope the head inside the cylinder look at the top of the piston and the valve seats while your looking rotate the engine, before you go looking ,run the engine until the noise appears and is loud then pull the plug look inside the cylinder with the bore scope check all of the above I mentioned
Don’t have a bore scope.
Morning Squatch. Greetings from Japan!
Good evening Luke, greetings from US!
Hey Luke!
Keep your chin up Toby .. ALL GOOD !!! 😎😎 thats what makes following your channel so interesting 👍👍👍 CHEERS my GOODMAN !!!!!!!!
Never saw a even worn out rocker arm tick. But it definitely was worth a try. It still could be a loose valve seat. I am not confident in my idea that it is a slipped valve guide if it is not a valve seat. But what else could it be?
Valve head hitting the piston would get worse by pressing against valve. And you would feel it when you turn the engine over.
What a mystery.
Oh I would use the cast rocker arms. But that is just me.
You can shim the loose one but also you could braze the cast one to build up the end and machine it to fit. But that is a lot of work as you would have to press out the bushing then braze and machine followed by bushing pressed back in / replace.
Another super long shot is the valve retainer half moons. Maybe the valve shaft is sliding in the valve retainers?
Thanks again for the mystery.
Question: what if everything checks out and you cannot find the problem? Will you just run it that way till it breaks or goes away?
Try another head???
Of course you can bush the rocker arm. The best mechanics in history approached problems with the attitude of why can’t I! I once told a very reputable wizard that “they say you can’t do that”, his response was “who are they? It’s my shop, I’ll do what I want” I became a much better technician once I adopted his philosophy. Keep up the good work!
Use a borescope camera through the spark plug holes and check the condition of the valve heads and seats and you will see if anything has moved. Also check height of all the valve stems with a ruler and see if all are same height, if a seat has moved down you will find a lower valve stem. This knock sound maybe can be also a valve head rubbing on the side of the cylinder bore when it opens, if the valve is too close to it. Sometimes cylinder heads machining are not exact equal and changing the head could have caused the problem. With a borescope you will be able to see it also. Before pulling back the head out you have to check all easier options.
Ive heard that before and it was excessive valve guide clearance on exhaust valve in that particular case, I found it by pushing sideways on valves while running
Thanks for the video Toby. Sad to hear it wasn’t an easy fix. Hoping it’s nothing to major. Can’t wait for the next video
Shout out to your patience and perseverance as well as methodical approach.
You should pull a plug out and see if you can see anything with a bore scope camera if it is a valve seat
Pull the spark plug wires, one at a time, while it's running. If the noise settles down on the dead cylinder, I would suspect a wrist pin problem. Bushing, pin, or piston. I've rebuilt several engines in my lifetime and had these quirks happen. Frustrating, yes. Just another challenge each of us go through in these journeys. BTW, your pole shed looks wonderful. I would like to have watched a similar video 15 years ago. I've done a lot of projects in mine. Keep up the good work, Squatch!
With all the work you have devoted to this project, I am so sorry to hear that you have to take the engine apart.😢
That just comes with the territory when using mostly all used parts that are 70 years old - lots of “X” factors at play 👍
It sure seems something internal, temp related
I’d almost try taking off the fan belt just to make sure something in the drive system isn’t resonating through the block
I say 're-bush' the welded rocker arm. Nice troubleshooting video. Some days the answer is 'no'. Keep up the good work.
Excellent video did you check the spark plug on the rattling cylinder i have seen the electrode break and even the grounding tang on the end of the spark plug come off . Check the compression a loose valve seat should have lower compression pressure
Possible reason for the bushing in the welded rocker not being serviceable could be that in removing it the 2 halves do or risk losing their centering due to deformation when pressing out the bushing. It sounds as if they're hollow. One side can in part could be pushed in while the other can get pushed out, especially at the lip. The forged being a solid (thus heavier) pc would have no give.
Maybe make the bushing exactly like you want it, and then use it to push the other one out and maintain alignment and support the whole way while pushing the new one in.
My guess is the stamping bores are not full depth so pushing a bushing in our out will distort the stamping as there is no way to hold the center area so it is supported on the inside. Probably would have to cut the old bushing out then use a heat shrink fit to install the new one. I imagine that how they did it at the factory.
There is no doubt in my mind that you can rebus that rocker arm. Your skills are second to none. I feel bad about you having to go deeper into the engine to find the problem. You will get there. Very enjoyable video Toby. Thanks
sounds like that one rocker arm ran low or dry on lube oil for a time ! you are correct always check and recheck your work
Thanks Squatch, my grandfather had an H and a Super C. He used to say he loved plowing with his Super C and my Uncle Charlie ran the H. That H is gorgeous. Nice job 👍 with it. Can you see a scribed small line in the top of that valve by the retainer. Then watch it. If it doesn’t turn and/or doesn’t turn consistently then the guide is too tight. Good luck. 👍 Awesome machine 😊
What a find though. #3 rocker being worn by .013, yet #3 still making noise after rocker replacement. Has to be the seat. Eager to see your findings after head is removed. But wait! How about using a scope through the spark plug hole? Possibly you might see a loose seat? Thanks!
The spark plug holes on these are located a considerable distance away from the valves, with them being so far up in the combustion chamber dome/recession - but taking the manifold off and looking down the exhaust port would get you right there 👍
Thanks for the video Toby. I wouldn't blame yourself too much for not thoroughly checking for wear on the rocker arms. Like you said there was no prior noise to make you suspicious. Hopefully it's nothing major and didn't cause any damage to the head. Looking forward to the next video as always. Cheers
Like you I would try to replace the bushing in the rocker, but with a much better forged rockers , why not refurbish them and go with a much better replacement 👍
Good Luck Tobie, you are a professional and will pin point the problem
Well you had to give it a shot. Hope to see a video on trying to re bush that rocker though. Good luck 👍
I actually really appreciate these videos where something goes wrong. I always learn a lot from watching them. I know it isn't fun for you, and it would be great if everything was good from the start, but there isn't as much educational value in it.
Great video Squatch. You have given me food for though as I dive into my H.
Squatch, You named the project "Preparation H" and did not think at lease one pain in the Ass would show up? Murphy will have his way. Good luck and God bless you all!!
Very interesting. Thanks
Good to see you using the stethoscope. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve screamed at the screen to get one out when another uTube is chasing a knock.
Screwdriver to your ear is way cheaper and just as effective😊
Wow that’s crazy! Never expected that- I know you can rebush that rocker, I have faith in you! Good- luck.
Methodical troubleshooting is the only way to fix something. It's too bad you have to disturb the cylinder head but time and patience pays back double in the end. I believe you will be able to bush that worn rocker arm too!
Well. Thought you had it. Not a total loss. It needed to be repaired. This would keep me awake at night.
I do think it would be prudent to do compression and leak down testing as well as borescoping that cylinder before you pull it apart. This can be turned into a valuable teaching moment for Squatch and the results you will expect and what it is all about so the average person will do some testing first instead of just ripping it down. I know you have done similar things in prior videos, but refreshers is always good
It would be really cool to see NVH on an old school tractor. On the other hand i see why that wouldn't be received well.
Well that kinda sucks but it gives your viewers some drama but I was really hoping that you nailed it with replacing the old rocker ! Now what do you think caused that one rocker to be so worn and the others to be within tolerances and what do you think would’ve happened if you left it as was? But this is a EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of why I love your channel and I know I speak for most of your viewers just when I thought I new it all You show us differences in 2 piece welded rockers and cast 1 piece rockers and that the rockers are in sequence that might not be the best description but I know you know what I mean 😀
But I can hardly wait for the mystery to be solved and hopefully it isn’t too costly 😀🇨🇦
Squatch, I've seen weak lifters cause a tap like this and as a retired master tech like you, you know it's a possibility even with brand new lifters.
These lifters are solid, not hydraulic 👍
The rockers in this engine, are they a singular part? Or are they a common number across several units? Other engines? The question I guess, is if you could find a good set of the stamped ones by waiting to keep the unit more OE ? Or is that even a concern for you? Gorgeous work sir, can’t wait to see it in the sun and your smile when you drive it. You seem to realy enjoy these old tractors. Good on ya! my Australian friend says….
Thanks! Yes, these rockers are quite common because they were used on the H as well as W-4 series tractors of the era. They built tons of them, so it's not very difficult to find spares :-)
Accept that challenge. You can install a bushing in the #3 rocker arm. If not, it can’t be done. 👍
I think that it's definitely a valve seat . It's just tight enough that it gets pulled back up in by the spring far enough that it isn't ticking when you first start it . But as soon as it heats up it starts to knock again .
Maybe it's just me and my tools but when I have taken a rocker shaft like that apart I can never get those circular clips back on. I remember once when it was late and cold and one went flying... (lost for months) If you re-bush or replace that rocker maybe you can show a trick or two with the clips. Too bad about that tick. Maybe you can get some good content from it in the end. You and Senior troubleshot that down in a matter of minutes!
You’re not the only one that would love to see how a pro does it!
I use a tiny flat screwdriver.
Enter 1 end of the ring clip into the groove and gently pry the clip with the screwdriver against the end of the rocker shaft just enough to get the clip on the shaft. Push it on the rest with a heavier screwdriver.
If you pry it too severely, it will open the clip up, easily fixed though.
Gotta be the valve seat at this point. The fact that it gets worse as it warms up kinda of solidifies that theory since the casting is expanding a bit and letting the valve seat rattle in the hole. The rocker may have added to the noise a bit, but not like it did after it ran for a little while. At least the head is nice and accessible, so no big deal with pulling it. Better to catch it now than have it drop a valve and destroy the engine.😱
I wish that would have been the problem Squatch, but I'll give you an A+ for effort.
As a test, how about removing that rocker arm and test running the engine to see if it still ticks. That would tell you whether it is a valve problem or not.
“Its the Johnson rod”
-George Costanza
I’m not gonna claim to know everything. But I would have thought if the seat was moving deeper into the head, you would’ve seen a decrease in valve lash
I hate the bad luck for you! But the way I look at it is it’s going to be more content for everyone else to enjoy! I love old tractors especially ones with family history being restored and kept alive!
DANG, that is frustrating. I know you'll get it figured out though.
Great job 👍 thanks for great video content
I'm sure those rockers are common enough you could find a NOS set for pretty cheap
Excellent video Toby :) also not fun also like learning new things too and hopefully next video solved it maybe! Only thing come to me thinking why shave pinch in more foul that Number 3 valve have on near cylinder motor do problem and may cure it ! Shave part talking is cone on head and give try on and hope that helps out!
I work for a place that sells old Chevy truck parts. For the 216 and 235 six cylinder there are 4 sets of 3 rocker arms. 3 right intake, 3 left intake, 3 right exhaust, and 3 left exhaust. It's the only way to get the angles right as you work around the pillar posts.
Just a little thing I experienced in the same mode the bolts that hold down the rocker assemblies get distorted threads and lose their effected ability to to stay tight, that was on a big diesel Mack engine, and Mack does recommend you replace those bolts when re assembling them.
On the bright side we will get another video to watch!
I was convinced it was the rocker too.
Pulling the head is at least somewhat simple.
Better than chain driven dual over head cams with variable timing.
Great video. I know how frustrating that can be.
I was hoping it was an easy fix with the rocker arms.
The bush in the welded rocker may have an internal OD rib or bi-conical shape to hold it central when the two halves are pressed onto it,which will prevent it being pressed out.
Or , the they are just concerned an inept mechanic will bend the rocker pressing the bush out due to supporting the rocker poorly in the press. The lateral strength of the welded unit will be less than the forged one.
Just a thought overnight. Any chance the valve has a sticky point? With the wear on the rocker bushing could that be caused by extra effort needed to move the valve? Just some thoughts and I am sure you will show the details of what you find. As always I appreciate watching you work on these old machines.
Pretty cool tool! I hope that the rocker arm is the end of it, and there isn't a further issue. I have seen LOTS of them [issues] while working on this D... Great video once again!
Hahahaha 👍 he has nothing but very cool tools from vintage cat wrenches to every vintage tooling machine for ground up restoration to home made 😆 think the only has to send heads out to be resurfaced 😀
Dang, so close. I was rooting for ya.
I put together a MM R with the jug style blocks you are familiar with and one was bad and leaking coolant. I needed the winter off before I went back to tear it apart again…. Frustrating!
That is always my fear when I do a complete rebuild that something deep inside is not right and I have to take it all apart again. I hate rework when I spend so much time (like you have done) making sure everything is just right and then something comes up and bites you. Good luck on finding the issue.
I did you check the width of the stands? Maybe one side is wider than the other.
I rebushed my super M rockers. I used McMaster carr bronze bushings and sized them to press into the rockers, left the ID a tick small and used a lapping tool with abrasive paste in a pistol drill to size them to the shaft after pressing them in. The originals are a pain to get out, FYI. Also, why not look in that cylinder with a boroscope before pulling the head.
Don’t have a boroscope.
@@squatch253 sent some pics to Kenny kizzle of the rebush job. Told him he can send them to you.
Got the pictures, thanks! 👍
@@squatch253 cool! You’re more than capable, get after it lol. I think I had to size ID, OD and length on the lathe. I don’t remember how I made sure they were centered when I pressed them in, may have turned up a steel sleeve to put in the press that was the right height to center them when they bottomed out on a flat plate… you’ll come up with a slick method I’m sure.
I think you could use a bore scope through the spark plug hole to check the valve seat, before you pull the head.
Pull one plug at time to fine what cylinder is causing
i would install the exhaust fan in your garage if you plan on test the engine in garage
Now this is Rocker science!
Have you tried looking into the cylinder with a bore scope? Head likely has to come off no matter what but atleast you might be able to see what’s going on and be prepared looking for parts or giving a machine shop heads up.
The stamped arm bushings might have a flange at the middle of the OD that is captured by the halves prior to welding so the bushings wouldn’t migrate.
Well on the bright side you may have saved yourself a small head ache on down the down finding that running clearance on the rocker.
Looks like you have had some nice weather for a few days good for slab curing hope the deer stayed off of it
Yep no deer, but the pigeons are starting to move in now with no doors yet to keep them out lol
Slips on the valve and slides along the shaft and with higher rpm and oil pressure it goes away as the oil cushion is stiffer.
Amazon prime days for the win on borescopes, some with controlable heads for relatively cheap
Icranked the volume up and pt my hearing aids on and Squatch your gunna have to pull the head to (a) fix the valve seat or (b) check to see if the bore sleeve is seated in the block side to side
I think you could put a bushing in there, too. But I don't know for sure, I'm just a farmer.
Yes Sir, you are just a farmer! You feed the world every day!
You keep this country going!
I hate to say it but it could be a non rotating lifter and it has a worn spot on it that ocasinally gets over the cam lobe and changes the clearances
I'm pretty sure I could hear Christine cackling in the background. You can almost hear her telling the H, "You have learned well, young Padawan."
Man, can't wait to see what it is. Hmm....scratches head
Could you pop the pushrods & cam followers out of #3 and start it up on 3 cylinders to confirm it is the valve seat?
The bright side of this problem, it make it more interesting for us viewers. What's next!!