Were Americans WRONG to Kill this German Pilot?
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- Опубликовано: 24 ноя 2022
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This is the story of German pilot Herbert Maxis in Operation Bodenplatte on January 1st of 1945. In this video, we try to determine whether it was right or wrong to kill this German after he crash landed his Messerschmitt Bf-109.
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Wow , that was, in my opinion, an excellent & informative video, I enjoyed very much.
I have never contemplated that particular aspect of WW2, that gave me a lot to consider, well done, and thank you for such an interesting video. I have never viewed a video before about the legality or the " right versus wrong " of war. So much more to consider,,,,,
Me as a German. And my uncle and grandpa was in war. The German was inspired from the famous German knight society rules. It was a SHAME, as a knight, to kill a beaten , unarmed enemy. And special an enemy who surrender! And to kill this not armed, not Dangerous soldier, was of course, a war crime. The USAAF, did war crimes the whole war. The bombing of cities, due like the surface of the moon. And DRESDEN! Was a war crime. And special, to the and of the war, the hunter of civilians on the street yvon the fields, hunter and killing all on the ground. As Germany was without defend,cause no luftwaffe airplane, was a war crime. But! The German never killed at ground USAF, emergency landing crew's! They never killed USAF crews who leaves plane with parachute. The police, secure the crews , against the German people, who lost everything causing this Terror bomber. And now I think. It was a failure of the German. USAF, us army, us soldiers, was so ruge, like dumb cowboy's. My ancient did a failure. We have to kill any USAF pilots we catching and get in prison. I am glad. Nice. The friend of my dad. Operation market field? Mass parachute paratroopers attack. He Standing at ground with a mg42. 1500 rounds per seconds. He kills a mass . That's was good .
@@ricksturdevant2901 thank you!
seriously? was it wrong for the British to wipe out 35% of the Afrikaners population in South Africa during the Boer war by putting Woman and Children in concentration camps and starving them to death in order to Force the Boer "AKA FARMERS " surrender ..a Crime they still have not apologized for ..oh and guess who learned that idea in WW2
@M. B. BlenkoBlanka At no time can any Allied bombing be considered a war crime.
Your lot started it.
If such bombing had killed every single Getman that would have been totally justified.
The Allies were trying to combat German extermination of themselves.
Any means necessary were required.
There is no level of killing beyond which it would be considered a war crime.
Attempted total destruction of the enemy was a justified objective in an effort to force the Germans to surrender.
Allied military strategy was NEVER a war crime.
One of my favorite "moments" of WW2 took place during the fierce battles around the Anzio Beach Perimeter. This is from General Ernst Harmon's (2nd Armored Div) biography. During a lull in the fighting, an American soldier had "liberated" some champagne and a black top hat from some local buildings and had proceeded to get roaring drunk. He got a bit turned around and his buddies watched as he drunkenly weaved his way towards the German line. They yelled, screamed and then silently waited for the inevitable shot or spray of machine gun bullets. They were amazed when he made it to the line and a German officer stepped forward, spun the man around and nudged him back towards his own line. There were cheers from both sides when he made it back.
War is terrible but sometimes the opportunity for mercy and humanity, even humor, arise.
Wow. That's a great story.
@@housemoneywithjimwalsh3109 Hopefully you'll be able to see it on the screen one day. I'm writing a screenplay about General Harmon and the African and Italian campaigns. Harmon was one of the best armored commanders we had. He was the one Ike sent to assess the situation after the Kasserine mess and made the decision that Gen, Lloyd Fredendall be removed from command. Ike then offered Harmon command of II Corps and Ernst Harmon made the toughest ethical call and turned him down saying "That just wouldn't be right."
I really hope you’re right and everyone sees your screen play
Great story,
I remember a story from the north Africa campaign, german DR with the DAK goes out in desert to do a No2, gets lost and walks to the allies side in error.
Germans need there DR so the do a swap!!!! For him,
Also can't remember if same deal but a English soldier caught was part of the rothman cigarette family, he was swapped for cigarettes.
Lots of cigarettes
My dad was in RAF bomber command during WW2. He was shot donw on his 27th mission over Germany, captured and brutally interrogated even though he was quite badly.wounded. After this, his was sent to hospital and treated very well. He spent two years in Stalg Luft 1 before being liberated. He said that most of the Germans he encountered during that time were very decent people.
The same happend to my dad in 1945. He then, after my mother died in 1965, married the german nurse that treated him in 1968.
@@ianwilson6417 Wow! What a fantastic story! I hope they had a happy life.
I'm from an American town that had a huge POW camp for german prisoners during the war. We have a lot of Amish and other german speakers in the area so we used the prisoners for farm labor. They were paid and generally agreed that they ate better than in Germany. More than a few decided to stay after the war. They married local girls and probably thanked god every day they were captured by the Allies.
@@Aldornas What a great comment. I had not considered this scenario previously. Thank you for sharing. Coincidentally, I arrived back to the UK from Germany two hours ago having visited the site of Stalag Luft 1 where my father was imprisoned. Very emotional but what is so clear is that the local people are desperate to preserve the memory of what happened there and make sure as many people are aware of it as possible.
you should go to Polen and see how those decent people treat Polish civilian in polish country!
Here is a quote from French ace Pierre Clostermann: "There will always be, and from all sides, people to make the war more horrible than it is".
The French rarely engage in much combat, instead capitulating early.
@harrybalsak916 Number of French soldiers who died during the First World War: 1,397,800
Number of American soldiers who died during the First World War: 116,708
Keep your lessons of courage in your clown pants 😂@@harrybalsak916
@@harrybalsak916
C’est le gouvernement de l’époque qui a demandé à l’armée française de stopper les combats . Combien de ces militaires ont traversé la manche pour continuer le combat auprès des britanniques !!! Relisez l’histoire des commandos Hubert, des pilotes français de la RAF et tant d’autres sans oublier nos valeureux groupes des réseaux résistants. Cordialement.
@@harrybalsak916 French Foreign Legion were tough to beat also Napolean had a tough Army but yes the Russian Weather beat him too but he did burn moscow He lost the Waterloo Battle too Less see WW1 & 2 the French had become to confortable One more Point the Worlds elites fear the Gulotine
Read a book titled "Lord's of the sky". Many stories of not only brutality of flying fighter planes in war from WW1 to Vietnam, but unbelievably brave acts of compassion. Including a German pilot in WW1 who shot down a plane in the enemies territory, landed, got the pilot out, bandaged his wounds and managed to take off before the infantry got there.
Yet another German would have summarily shot the wounded pilot. Understandably, because his reasoning would be "he could come back and kill some of my compatriots".
@@adotintheshark4848 Bullshit. Did you watch too much "1917"?
@@Muschelschubs3r war is hell.
@@adotintheshark4848 Show us a real example. Thanks.
@@adotintheshark4848 "war is hell" it´s the justification for many war criminals or supporters of them.
Having actually been in ground combat, I can offer that in the heat of battle, when you are being shot at by people who want you dead, compassion quietly excuses itself and leaves the area. Some folks restrain themselves, some just don't, and you never know which one YOU are until the moment is around you.
Me as a German. And my uncle and grandpa was in war. The German was inspired from the famous German knight society rules. It was a SHAME, as a knight, to kill a beaten , unarmed enemy. And special an enemy who surrender! And to kill this not armed, not Dangerous soldier, was of course, a war crime. The USAAF, did war crimes the whole war. The bombing of cities, due like the surface of the moon. And DRESDEN! Was a war crime. And special, to the and of the war, the hunter of civilians on the street yvon the fields, hunter and killing all on the ground. As Germany was without defend,cause no luftwaffe airplane, was a war crime. But! The German never killed at ground USAF, emergency landing crew's! They never killed USAF crews who leaves plane with parachute. The police, secure the crews , against the German people, who lost everything causing this Terror bomber. And now I think. It was a failure of the German. USAF, us army, us soldiers, was so ruge, like dumb cowboy's. My ancient did a failure. We have to kill any USAF pilots we catching and get in prison. I am glad. Nice. The friend of my dad. Operation market field? Mass parachute paratroopers attack. He Standing at ground with a mg42. 1500 rounds per seconds. He kills a mass . That's was good .
That's well said. Most people sit on their couch or behind a desk and read the AAR & judge what's right or wrong.
This is the same perspective other veterans offered. Thanks for your insight.
@@m.b.blenkoblanka4167 shit happens when you put a psycho Austrian former corporal and failed artist in as Das Fuhrer that killed everyone that disagreed with his BS. Does this clear things up since you don’t know the difference between Austria 🇦🇹 and Australia 🇦🇺
If the Germans did not want alleged "war crimes" committed against them, then they shouldn't have started the war with brutal occupation forces. They shouldn't have bombed population centers of London and Paris and others. Sorry to be harsh, but the Nazi regime and axis powers got exactly what they deserved in retribution to their attacks. Then the allied powers, especially America, spent many years helping them rebuild from the destruction that they brought upon themselves.
If you read a similar account of the capture of the British Ace Robert Stanford Tuck he continued engaging a German AA gun while he was crash landing in flames, after he was captured the Germans congratulated him on his tremendous deflection shooting that destroyed the gun position and he was treated well.
Good read..."Tuck's luck"
He actually held that his sparing came from having shot the gun itself that got "banana-peeled" either by a lucky shot if his guns busrting the barrel, or by detonating a German shell, which his captors found hilarious.
@@FarTooRight"sounds like an American name"...
Yeah, because the US has such a long, unique and totally separated linguistic and cultural history from the United Kingdom... :D
I would imagine Stanford would be his mothers maiden name ,very popular in the early 1900s in well to do family.
I have a story told by my father late in his life he passed in 2009 and very rarely spoke of the war. Early on 1942 He was 20, he was lucky, had a cushy job 8thAAF Miami Beach Fla physical training instructor. Keeping with the subject I will make it brief, after battle of the bulge (late1944) allies filled in replacements and had final push to wars end, my father went from Cushy to Anti- tank Destroyer, those guys who follow in front of tanks with a mine/metal detector (said he volunteered as he got a few bucks more)..he told me a column was moving up, Holland/West Germany..and the line came to a halt, as they watched a struggling B-17 making its way back to any allied airfield..go into a death spiral, the guys all looking up..counted out loud 7 chutes open(seemed liked 7 of 10) got out. The area where the B-17 guys had landed still was not fully secure of the enemy, no one thought anything more..about 24/36 hours later after town was taken and cleaned out, a few guys stumbled on to the planes wreckage. To the shock of these guys, there was 9 marked fresh graves about 50 yards away. No one was sure how these 9 came to be dead as 7 chutes for sure opened, 2 more graves, plus one missing. No one asked questions, might have been locals or defending Germans,who killed these airmen, no one cared, but needless to say that group my dad was with, didn't take any German prisoners until orders came down about a week later, why no surrendering prisoners had been caught. So this scenario easily works both sides.
Which basically means that they were no better than the Nazis. Kind of hard when you say it that way.
Did nobody thought about Germans gave those airman which did in the crash a proper burial ?
Anyway: Your father committed a war crime...
@@papst7377 The burial might have been done by the locals, not by the Germans, or by the Germans, hard to know, both happened. What kind of wonders me about this story is that the nine graves were all together. Normally when you parachute out, especially with these bell parachutes (sorry if that's the wrong word, I mean those round ones, not the modern ones, English isn't my first language) you can't really control where you land and you get blown all over the place (just check the stories of what happened to 101st Airborne on D-Day), especially with inexperienced jumpers in less-than-ideal conditions like a crew who has probably never jumped before exiting an uncontrolled bomber in a death spiral. This could mean two things, either the bomber was already really low to the ground when they jumped and they bascially all dropped at or around the crash site, which makes safe landings quite unlikely, meaning they very likely didn't survive the jump or the Germans meticulously searched an area of multiple square kilometers while also probably retreating and under heavy enemy fire until they found all seven (likely hiding) spread out crew members of the bomber, took them all back to the wreckage of the bomber, executed them and either left them there or burried them there for the Americans to find.
@@MyRegardsToTheDodo Mist likely: Nobody jumped out.
They died in the crash
Locals didn't want too live with body's in the backyard so they buried them.
OOOOOOR German troopers buried them.
Also: How did OPs father knew those where the graves from the plane crew?
Maby the plane just came down next to fresh graves from the last bombing of civilians.... 🤷
Anyway. There is no apology: This was a war crime.
But as we know: Americans really don't care about war crimes committed by theire own...
Hi there, i would like to share a bit of a different story from what is usually talked about when talking about war stories. I also cant say if things 100% happened as i was told, but i do belive that a family member wouldn't lie about something like this.
My grandfathers sister was born in 1928 in a remote Village in Saarland Germany. The village they lived in was and is still quite small and most of the inhabitants were and are farmers.
So one day ( i dont know if it was 1944 or 45 ) she told me, she was going on to the fields to work as they did every day, but during her work on the filed she and her siblings where shot at for no apparent reason by American planes, this also happened multiple times after that day. As she is now dead unfortunately i cant really say if those planes really where American but it is likely.
If you made it this this far i would first like to thank you for reading, and i would like to say that im am well a were what some german pilots did during the war as im sure someone will want to tell me if i dont include this paragraph.
In war there are good and bad people on every side, lets just hope there isnt a war like this again.
Have a nice day :)
There is a war like that going on in the Ukraine right now, with Putin and his thugs invading the Ukraine and killing thousands and thousands of Ukrainian citizens.
it was a war-crime ... an American tradition that has continued in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. etc.
My cousin married a Ukrainian who was in Germany as a very young lad during the war. He told me that when they were working in the fields someone would stand watch on the highest point looking out for enemy planes so as to warn them of the planes approach, as the allied aircraft would strafe anything that they saw moving
American pilots had the order to target civilians with strafing runs.
Yeager speaks of this order in his book.@@23GreyFox
Fascinating comments and all the different perspectives. As a veteran of a long-forgotten war, I was well-trained to deal with the handling of prisoners. In the end, personally, it came down to, "Do not do unto others, what you would not like done to thyself".This principle has served me my entire life
So what do you do when your buddies head gets popped and they guy throws his rifle on the ground? You’d let him off that easy? Fuck that get out of my foxhole
A good principle to live by and I agree. However, I am also a realist. In this situation the Massacre at Malmedy of 84 to 115 (sources vary in the number) Americans who had surrendered and were POWs, when murdered by Nazi SS troops, took place just two weeks before this incident. The news of it spread like wildfire through the American Army. Let it be said that the number of German prisoners taken, in particular members of the SS, dropped significantly. Had the SS subscribed to your principal, it is probable a lot more Germans would have lived to see the end of the war. This was a World at War and the rules about killing people were not always followed. I don't have to like it to accept it.
They had this message engraved in the prison of Fort Warren during the Civil war to serve as a reminder for the guards
Yes this is Biblical TRUTH in fact words of Jesus Christ !
Or ya know...rephrase that as "if you do unto others, so shall be done unto you." Hence if you shoot pilots in their parachutes then it's fair game to do the same.
"But the German civilians were dying from bombs!" So were Brits and later Poles.
You can't even say people can't understand this. They did when it was nukes. Look, we're all still here, because nobody wanted to pull the trigger first.
It is never wise to inflict retribution upon enemy POWs, since when word gets out, you can expect the same to happen to your POWs.
Just don't expect that by being better that'll automatically keep them from being worse. Who's to say which country committed the first war crime of any war, it's likely the best buried.
Apparently, you don't know that any enemy we ever fought didn't give a damn how well we treated their prisoners...they still showed ours no mercy.
@@jlbush8249 Apparently you don't know history at all. We have fought enemies, to include Germany, that overall treated our prisoners quite well. While the US has fought wars where they mistreated enemy POWs (read some literature on America's counter insurgency in the Philippines). When you fight dragons, you must always be vigilant against you, yourself becoming the dragon.
@@flemishpopulist1477 We were too soft on the Phillipine rebels imo.
I read about one German soldier playing chicken with a British tank. Every time the British tank fired its gun, he would duck inside the foxhole as the shells whistled over his head and then would poke his head back up and start firing is machine gun at the tank again. The gunner inside the tank got very annoyed and fired his shell just before the foxhole and saw the foxhole disappear in a cloud of dirt and dust. A very shaken German soldier climbed out of what was left of his foxhole, stood there for a moment staring at the tank with a completely bewildered look on his face before dropping his machine gun. The tank crew watched with great pity as the German soldier turned around and staggered slowly away from them.
I thank God I was never in this position. What would I have done? My father was in AAA unit for a while in Europe. He later was in a regular artillery unit leading a squad protecting a forward artillery observer. He never talked much of those days, but in his last years, he told my mother that twice men on either side of him were killed. War is as close to hell as the living will know.
My gunsmith actually knows a man who had trained as a pilot for Germany towards the end of the war and his very first sortie he took up and measurement 109 made his way to France and landed after flying very low, at an Allied air base and actually ended up sweeping floors there till the end of the war and was offered to move to wherever he wanted, and he ended up living in Nova Scotia. He had given up instantly after bringing the plane in, and had told them exactly what he had planned to do all along and that's what he did. He said the war was over there was no reason for people to keep throwing themselves into the meat grinder.
Smart guy. I think it actually took more courage to do what he did than continue to fight.
There are two books, entitled "The German Aces Speak, by Colin Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis which detail life in the Luftwaffe. Essentially extensive interviews with famous pilots. Really good reads with interesting insights from the " other guys". If you are interested in this topic, I highly recommend them!
And what helped his cause was that he didn't shoot at anyone before landing
A German fighter pilot followed and escorted a crippled a B-17 over the Baltic Sea and spared the lives of the crew. The pilot was intrigued the the actions of the German fighter. He went to search for that pilot after the war. To make the long storey short, the American B-17 pilot lived in Seattle, and later learned that the German pilot lived in Vancouver BC. The both men met and now they are like brothers.
It’s easy to make moral judgments many decades later and have no understanding of the state of mind many people were in, allied aircrews were often murdered after they landed after bailing out, I defy anyone to prove similar didn’t happen in any wars by either sides
My father was a Korean war Marine. A Chinese soldier surrendered to him shortly after killing his buddy. It took immense willpower not to squeeze the trigger on him when he came out with his hands up. His sergeant was afraid he would shoot him, and said he'd be up on murder charges if he did.
This is a great story for this video.
Killing him would still be wrong. But showing mercy is always morally the right thing to do. And shows what kind of person we really are.
This was a war crime because the pilot had surrendered, but the German fighter pilot in the other episode was parachuting over his own territory, and would probably fight again if allowed to do so, in addition to being a war criminal. pilots must not be allowed to parachute over their own territory only to be issued another plane, especially when planes outnumber pilots.
@@alan6832 Where is the honor in killing a defenseless opponent.
@@kevin-yv1ig You are right - there no honor in killing defenseless opponent. BUT only if your opponent is honorable person. Americans are lucky. They never witnessed how Luftwaffe "knights" shoot-up with machine guns unarmed and defenseless civilian refugees on the roads of France and Russia....This particular case can be classified as a war crime. German pilot was strafing military position. But a lot of things can happen in the heat of battle can also qualify as war crimes... However - striping his dead body for souvenirs is not just act of marauding. Unspeakable shame!
On youtube, a Canadian veteran told of his service when the allies stormed the shores on D Day...his division was ordered at a briefing that not to let anything hinder them in their advance into the beach head....as they landed and made their way toward the fortifications he passed a young German soldier with his arms in the air in an obvious surrender and shot him dead....as he was telling this, he had teared up and said that was his greatest regret in the war...cheers🍷🇨🇦
"I shot a young german kid who surrendered to me - tough times. cheers 🍷CA"
@@avireks hes just sharing a story there boss
@@hackcult3738Smetimes you just can’t fix stupid. Just ignore the ignorant.
yep, murdering defensless people cause regret of course. mericans
@@avireks shooting foreing kid is a very anglo thing
While I have been fortunate enough to have not been involved in the horrors of a war first hand, I would hope that my professional training as a soldier would rise to the top and guide my conduct in such an situation. While the pilot was firing on his approach to the crash, he may not have even realized it. If he wasn't scared out of his mind he would have been doing much better than I would have. He was a inexperienced pilot, in a very hot fire fight, in a compromised aircraft, about to crash in his enemy's backyard and most likely wounded (either in the fighting or during the landing or both), things couldn't get much worse from his end but apparently it did. I can understand the actions of the American but I can't agree with or condone his action. Not the action of a professional soldier. War can certainly warp one's thinking.
Being a veteran myself, I understand all arguments involved, but this was completely in the wrong. The tell-tale detail was that he was shot in the back of the head. This was clearly an execution for which there is no defense. The fact that emotions were high is also not a defense, and if this was the cause, this speaks to the lack of discipline of the unit and/or control the officers had on their men.
Personally, I agree with this.
Agreed. Execution of enemy soldier who is not position to harm anyone is always war crime. If you have time to shoot back if the neck. It's premeditated murder.
@@TJ3 In the heat of battle, which some may have felt was going on as the plane's guns were blazing during the landing...when does the whistle get blown?
I agree with your points, but in order to prosecute, the eyewitnesses would have to testify against the killer. That was unlikely to happen.
Think again how many civis do you think he killed in the back of the head whilst strafing civilian convoys during the Blitz Krieg doctrine.
No the Nazis knew what they where doing and the causes.
Its no different than giving the death penalty to a convicted child killer. Except these where a bunch of people that wanted full domination of the world with also a policy of kill everything we don't like.
Franz Stigler was a Luftwaffe ace that allowed an American B17 Bomber to return to England. They B17 was totally shot up with many of the crew wounded. He felt it would be murder to shoot the bomber down. While in training Stigler was told by his commanding officer “If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you - not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”
That was a amazing story and they became Great friends telling each other they loved each other. Franz saw dead men in the B17. There are accounts of Great Humanity from the German Soldier's who hated the S.S. There were many Germans that helped the Jews knowing their fate if they were caught. People forget the first Country taken over by the NAZI'S was Germany. I hated the scene in Fury when the rookie was forced to kill a regular German Soldier. That was murder. But when the S.S. Officer got caught that was Justice.
@@kurtsherrick2066 Then the SS soldier looked under the tank, and let the American go. Didn't harm him. Yet Brad Pitt shot a prisoner in cold blood earlier in the movie , and would have raped that young German woman if his crew member wouldn't have gone into the woman's room with her. But that was all ok.
@Wolfram Krause Yes the cruelty of war and the humanity that is shown by those who understand the other guy is just doing what you are. Fighting a war that doesn't have anything to do with each of them. The tank battle between The Americans and the Tiger was ridiculous. Why would a Tank come out of hiding when he doesn't have to. Then doesn't take out the lead tank and the only one with a bigger gun and gets the other tanks first. The Tiger would have just sat still and took out all 4 off them out. The Tiger would have taken out Fury first.
@@kurtsherrick2066 Absolutely, and over 100 SS troopers wouldn't have rushed the disabled tank (Brad Pitt's). The wouldn't have risked an infantry assault. They would have either nailed that tank with an 88 or called up a Tiger or Panther to take it out. It was a silly movie that had little credibility in my estimation.
I was going to say the same thing about the end of the movie about the German Infrantry fighting a broke down Sherman. That was ridiculous. That would have never happened. They easily could just gone around. The Germans were smarter than that. Of course Hollywood had a have a dramatic climax but it could have been done another way. The Tiger scene was just as ridiculous.
Thanks for making this video TJ3 History, a very valid topic. I first came across this incident a few months ago whilst researching the history of what was Hans Dittes hybrid Bf 109G-10/Buchon. The remains of Maxis' aircraft were reportedly recovered from a pit where they had been buried in the 1980s and parts were incorporated into Dittes' machine that is now part of Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm at Manching and a static rebuild that is on display at Aviaticum Museum, Wiener Neustadt Ost, near Vienna.
It would seem that he was killed in the heat of the moment and many others would suffer the same fate on both sides in incidents of a similar nature, very sad but these things still happen in wartime.
heat of the moment, my arse ! He had his hands up, and he was shot with a pistol in the back of the head ... it was a war-crime
I have a photo of my father standing next to a downed German focke wulf 190 in WW2. My father was a forward scout in the 3rd Armored Division and has told me many stories of his experiences. To counter this particular incident, my father was under General Rose, and this situation was very similar to what happened to General Rose from my father’s account. Basically, General Rose and his driver drove into a German occupied area in the woods, they where blocked from escaping so both General Rose and his driver got out of their Jeep to surrender with their hands in the air. For some reason General Rose reached in his jacket to show them a document he was carrying and this is when a German shot General Rose in the Head. The driver bolted into the woods and escaped to tell the story. He said if the Germans knew he was a surrendering General they never would have shot him.
But they thought he was going for a gun instead of a paper document. So, this situation was happening on both sides and I feel no one has a right to judgment. War is terrifying no matter what side your on. In the end, my father told me he personally had no hatred for the common German Soldier. But a captured German SS soldier was a very different story.
A rational opinion. A regular German soldier could have been a conscript. Any SS would be a volunteer. Basically a regular German soldier might be a Nazi. A SS soldier is a Nazi.
My Dad was in the Third Army in WW2 and he told me ." Some days we took prisoners and some days we didn't ," As per unwritten orders from his superiors. He said we didn't have the resources to deal with Prisoners. That's just the way it was". He told me, "Some guys didn't mind shooting them, but the winners write the history". He was an old man when he told me this, and that he had never told anyone this before... I could tell he was still haunted by these memories
One of my Uncles was captured during the Battle of the Buldge; an ambulance driver that was right at a front line area. The Germans ordered the wounded out, took the truck with my Uncle back to their Aide station, and made him start treating their wounded. The ranking Sargent made it clear to my Uncle, if he didn/'t comply as ordered, or if he tried to escape he would be shot, but not harmed otherwise. When the Buldge battle turned against the Germans, they ordered him to walk back toward the American lines. He thought he might be shot, but the old Sargent said he would not, and he thusly walked away, and lived.
Too much factors to say what was correct or wrong but orders are orders you get in trouble for not following them too, it sucks. I think your dad did best he could at the time, he is correct on winners write history
With Food running low ! Noise Discipline becomes paramount
War crimes are standart in all american wars, they bomb civillians in other countries to this day without any accountability.
Interesting how the Germans didn't take that logic with the Soviets, even though arguably they would have had a more successful invasion without feeding entire Soviet armies in POW camps.
When I was in Vietnam my unit was attacked by a large force of NVA. After the sun came up an NVA soldier stood up with his hands and weapon above his head yelling Chu hoi( I surrender). My two foxhole buddies and I were still "boot marines" and unsure of what to do. When the NVA began to approach still holding his rifle we began (by mistake) to yell Lai Dia (come here) instead of Dung Lai (stop). The closer he came the more panicked we became, not wanting to murder him, but not wanting to be shot either. When he got close enough we grabbed his rifle and knocked him to the ground. We were still being hit pretty hard on the other side of our perimeter and the whole camp was still in much disarray. One of the other guys and myself took the prisoner and headed to find our company SGT ( a huge black guy who scared us to death but knew everything) We found him and said ,"Sgt we caught one, what you want us to do with him" The Sgt being very busy trying to keep things under control with out batting an eye said WASTE HIM! I nearly died myself. I had shot people but not like this. Luckily, the SGT was too busy to mess with us and took off to more pressing matters. We took our prisoner and headed to the LZ with him. We found a Capt. there and handed over our prisoner. War crime diverted!
"Just following orders" can lead to some very harsh consequenses, later. Like guilt.
American soldiers are just tools of imperialism.
Panama, Guatemala, Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria, who will be the next victim on the list?
@@peterruiz6117 most people who won't bat an eyelash at an order like that are incapable of feeling guilt. But yeah, if you're human at all you will.
@@alphana7055 So.only American soldiers are the bad ones? You have a lot to learn about life and war in particular!
@@radamson1 When was the last time american soldiers fought a defensive war?
My dad's uncle was a US Army infantryman in WWII. He saw action in France. At one point, a few of his fellow soldiers murdered disarmed German POWs. At some point later, a German Luftwaffe officer surrendered to my dad's uncle. He took his Femaru pistol and holster and convince the officer to run away so that he wouldn't be murdered. The officer ran off. I have the Femaru pistol and holster. 😄
Oh, and none of those American soldiers who had murdered the disarmed German soldiers made it home from WWII. Should I grieve their loss? 🤔
How do u know they died?
@@melianhoover1910 You're right. They might have been missing limbs, faces, etc. They did not, however make it out unscathed.
To this day the American government has a hard time to persecute, or even acknowledge, war crimes of US soldiers. To find cases of soldiers end up before the military court for war crimes are extremely rare.
The brutatlity that people experience in war turns some into worse than animals. My ex-wife's grandfather served in the South Pacific as an airplane mechanic during WWII. He said that at one during the war, some of the men at his base captured a Japanese soldier, castrated him and then shot him when tried to run off. None were punished. I can't imagine ever doing anything like that... and I suspect that before the war... none of the men involved would have imagined doing anything like that.
I'll take shit that didn't happen for 1,000 Alex...
That story doesn't make any sense for several reasons.
When Bob Tuck, RAF ace, was shot down by ground fire in January 1942, IIRC, he was safely taken prisoner by the men of the AA emplacement that brought him down even though he had managed to kill at least one, possibly more, of them prior to his downing.
Bob Tuck was known for Tuck's Luck and when he was captured, the Germans roughly dragged hi to the AA gun platform and was expecting to be shot, but the Germans were impresed by his shooting ability and one of his 20mm cannon shells had gone down one of the gun muzzles and the barrel was blown up! "Good shooting, Englander!"
I read his account. He was praised for his accuracy, as a round from his Spitfire went down the muzzle of one of the anti aircraft guns. Then, he had dinner with the Germans, and one told him he was glad Tuck would no longer have to risk his life, fighting. BIG contrast in enemy attitudes, sometimes (?).
On the other hand, we had individuals like Ernest Hemmingway...
Just a foot note to that story, He had straffed a gun enplacement & was shot down by the same gun. the gun crew were angry & he was fearful for his life. then it was brought to their attention that one of Tucks shells had entered the end of the anti aircraft gun barrel & had split it open. The mood changed from revenge to smiles at his lucky shot.
@@peterruiz6117 You can't generalise from one story of German mercy and insinuate the Germans had a different "attitude"
A story, eine Geschichte: I'm German, I'm from Hamburg, I'm a photographer (53) and I grew up listening to the stories of my father and mother. Over and over again. I listened to war stories. My parents were extremely old when I was born. In 1944, as an engineering student and a conscript, my father was a non-commissioned officer and was responsible for the expansion and repair of Luftwaffe runways in Bavaria. He told me that the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) at the time had done nothing to counter the Allied superiority in the air. There was hardly any dogfighting, it was skeet shooting. The war should have ended long ago, but like so many Germans who were not yet aware of the scope of the crimes committed in Germany's name or, even worse, simply looked the other way all went on. Till the bitter end.
And this superiority, especially in the air, led to a hunt for everything that moved. And that included civilians. One day early in the morning my father went to the airfield to do an inspection. It was in an open area, everything was concreted. Forests around him. Then, and he's told this story over and over again, a Mustang P 51 descended towards him out of the low sun over the treetops. The plane had swooped down on him from an extreme height, like a hunting bird. After reaching the beginning of the runway, the pilot steered the plane straight toward him, flying low, the propeller almost touching the concrete floor. My father saw the pilot in his glass dome. He knew he was doomed, but not wanting to run away, they all approach him with his hands up and praying to the Virgin Mary. This whole process must have all happened in milliseconds. As he said this prayer, he suddenly saw that for some reason there was a manhole cover next to the opening of the runway's storm sewer. Someone had forgotten to reseal this single shaft. And my father jumped into that open manhole while the pilot operated his guns at the same moment. Suddenly it went black around him and he heard the machine gun shots pass over him. The pilot circled over him again and dropped a cluster bomb over him (that's what he remembered ...maybe he fired just one more time) and then veered away in his fighter plane. My father was saved. This was the reason why we had an altar of Mary in our little garden.
My father, born in 1920, has meanwhile passed away. But I am sure that wherever he may be, he is now united with many of his comrades from the US and has found peace ...
I read that the German people, because of their government's propaganda, by and large were not aware that the war was actually not winnable as early as 1942-43 as many think. This because of the disastrous invasion of Russia. Hard to believe, but when considering the situation with the public in Russia and access to the internet even with restrictions, it's understandable that the German public was somewhat clueless of the looming defeat. And I always thought that of all the mistakes that Hitler made, two sealed his deserved fate. First, the timing of the invasion of Russia, not the season, but the year. Two, declaring war on the US in December of the SAME year of the invasion into Russia. What would have happened if Russia and Germany had remained allies and Germany didn't declare war on the US. Roosevelt wanted in to stop this very scenario. Maybe he would have found a way anyway but it would have been much more difficult with Russia and Germany still partners in crime.
That was pretty brave of the US pilot. If your dad had had his mother with him, the Pilot would have been too scared, for sure.. 😬
This action come as no surprise, nor were these actions by American pilots as benign as the media wants to portray. My Mother recalled a P-51 hunting down a kid on a bicycle and shooting at him. The kid was lucky that day. The American pilot was a poor shot, and the kid dove into a culvert. Had he remained on the bike he would have been killed. We are inundated with the barbarous acts committed by the Germans but the Americans seem to be given a pass is how it looks. Same for the Russians. How many of them were punished for war crimes against civilians? Any at all?
@@wolframkrause3476 Vae victis!
@@wolframkrause3476 i rember storys about the people of mainz hanging down airmen at the rathouse. Non military took these downed airmen and hung them after they had surrendered. After this americans always saved an extra bomb and flew over mainz. Sometimes civilians are not so innocent as they appear......kids on bikes....welll kids where on the 88s firing at mustangs in 1944. Many of them where 14 year olds. U can google it. So not so innocent!
What strikes me, is the amount of testimonies in the comments, that your work brings to a light.
It's very valuable!!
Personally, I think, it was understandable for the P-51 pilot to kill the parachuter, it was revenge in his mind, plus the German was a nazi last i recalled ( I think? ) war brings out the worst in you, so saying that he was wrong is a bit redundant in my opinion
“War is hell” sums it up. A lot of incomprehensible things happen and there is no way to tell right from wrong.
war crime
of course there is right and wrong. a crazy and blood thirsty merican just want to kill a german before war end and founnd his oportunity there with a defenless pilott. It was a crime
This happened to a relative of mine. My great uncle was an American pilot, shot down over Germany, and killed by local brown-shirts against the advice of others. At war's end, the town officials were tried and convicted of murder by an American court.
They should not went to the American court. They should went to their court.
@@stephencraig2994 What the fuck does that mean? Did you mean to say "should not have" ??? Go back and edit this.
@@stephencraig2994 You clearly don’t understand what happens in an occupational country after a war has been waged and lost. One is lucky to even have a puppet led country at that point, they won’t be “your” courts anymore after losing a war, get real.
@@stephencraig2994 depends, if it was under occupation after the surrender the specific zones had military jurisdiction.
@@stephencraig2994 they shot an American airman not German that’s the reason why they’ve gone to an American court. A German one would have slapped them on the back and said good shooting .
My brother in law was in the 101st Airborne in Vietnam and saw lots of combat, being wounded twice during two tours. He said he regretted only one NVA/VC soldier he killed. It was an NVA soldier captured after an intense battle that saw my brother in law's hometown friend blown to pieces next to him by a mortar round. My brother in law said he took out his grief and anger about losing his friend and beat the captured enemy soldier to death in revenge. But years later when he told me this, he said he regretted it because it was not a fair fight. The enemy soldier had his hands tied and could not fight back. He said everyone else he had to kill in Vietnam combat, it was either kill or be killed, but not that captured soldier. He was sorry he did it.
He is/was human. And a decent person with morality since he regretted that act.
The burden he carried must be heavy
Beating to death is not that easy... A sadist or on drugs like many in Vietnam.
I'm sure he regrets a lot of things in life...
So he killed a POW that had his hands tied behind his back, that is a war crime no matter how you paint it and is considered murder.
Im so sorry for your brother in law. It must be a horrible feeling. God have mercy on him
I love the moral of this channel, it never spreads hate , unlike others.
I read an account by a German officer serving in the Afrika Korps. He was in a fairly quiet sector where they and the British had adopted a sort of live and let live attitude. Some of his men came up and announced they had managed to steal a British truck full of provisions. He knew what the likely retaliation would be so he engineered a replacement company on the pretext that his company needed to investigate some "suspicious activity". He returned with his company after a few days having unsurprisingly, discovered nothing and asked the departing company commander how things had been whilst he'd been away. The answer was that it had been pretty quiet, except one night the British had snuck over and stolen two trucks.
Happened to several of my relatives, in N. Africa and on the eastern front, both killed shortly after surrender.
My Father was born in 1925 and grew up in the Nazi regime. 1943 he became a "Flugzeugführer"...a pilot. He flew a ME bf110 and was shot down 1944 in France. He then was brought to Biloxxi, Mississippi as a pow, came back in 1948 or 49 to Germany. 1963 he met my Mom and produced me and my brother. Unfortunately he died in a car accident in 1972. I still have his "Soldbuch"" and I would like to hear all of his stories!
Your father was a dupe and a criminal.
There was a German POW camp here in Texas between the small central Texas towns of Bastrop and Elgin. Baron Von Bastrop founded the little town in 1832. There were a lot of folks in that part of Texas whose families had come over from Germany generations before. The Army Base was called Camp Swift. My family bought land where the old base used to be. We heard many stories from locals about the families who would go to the POW camp with home cooked meals and spend the day speaking German (probably not very well after several generations);. Christmas was a big deal when Churches from many miles away would send food, small presents and families to spend Christmas Day with the young men. Many of the young soldiers stayed and raised families here.
If you read this Torsten I made an entry this evening 6 entries after yours. Please take time to read it. GOD bless You and Your Family. Condolences on losing your Dad.
Most people simply do not know all German military were not Nazis. Rommel wasn't a Nazi he was a soldier plain and simple and a dam good one at that.
There isn't to much said on how much respect normal German servicemen got from their opposition. Even less said on how Hitler pleaded to be given back the areas of Germany that had been carved up after WW1. Some of those Germans that wanted back were within that new taken area of Poland. France stopped Germany being given that region back. Hitler stated if we are not given the area by a set date we will take it and that's exactly what he did.
Our so called history is written by the victors all other sides of history are hidden.
My favourite plane of all time was the 109 way before the spitfire. Simply something about German ingenuity of that era, exactly why all our countries had taken every scientist and engineer we could find
fom 1948 to 1949 he was a slave laborer which was in violation of the Geneva Convention.
@@michaelwhisman hmmmm, what are correction facilities doing in America with prisoners, slave labour work force
The allied did many things that would be considered war crimes today. But since the allied won, most was never prosecuted
The winners write history.
The allies were quite cruel, just as the axis powers.
But shhh
no war-crimes by the Allies were prosecuted ... Victors' Justice stinks
Good presentation. You certainly did your research. Well done.
That reminded me of a story about Douglas Bader when he straffed a truck while gliding down to belly land, when he got out of his plane, the germans wanted to kill him but the fact that this pilot had no legs saved is life!
Your source is inaccurate. Douglas Bader parachuted from a higher altitude, exiting his Spitfire while leaving one of his artificial limbs which had become jammed in the cockpit.
Possibly, you might be recalling a different incident when WC Robert Stanford Tuck crash landed while straffing a German 88mm flak battery. The story goes that the Germans were about to lynch him. That was until someone noticed that one of the flak gun barrels had been hit straight down the barrel by Stanford Tuck's weaponry, causing it to appear like a peeled banana. ... Seemingly, their teutonic humour saw a funny side to all this, where despite the carnage he was taken a POW.
what, Bader bailed out and left his leg in the plane,
@@greggiles7309 It was caught in the rudder pedals. Not sure if you know, but Doulas Bader had lost both legs before the war in an aircraft crash. He was released from the RAF as there was no provisions for a legless pilot. He fought to get back in when the war broke out and proved he could fly as well as any pilot and was allowed to fly again.
Side note to the story of Bader. After his capture, he requested that an unarmed Allied plane be allowed to fly near the POW camp he was held in and airdrop a new pair of artificial limbs. His captors granted his request. Upon receiving his new limbs Bader promptly escaped. After he was recaptured, the Germans took his limbs, and only allowed him there use during certain hours to insure that no more escape attempts were made. Upon his liberation, he was given the honor of leading the VE day victory flight over London. The guy had brass ones so big, they must've clanged together when he walked.😃👍
@@greggiles7309 Yeah. Sadly he was left without a leg to stand on... 😖
My grandfather Refugio Arguijo was there. He told me this exact story. He said the pilot made a beautiful crash landing, surrendered and "some son of a bitch shot him". He recalled the incident with disgust.
Interesting!
And the pilot just shot one of them so.....fair is fair
@@woodsyguy2753 Yeah, except that the guy he shot down was trying to shoot him aswell. Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to excuse your so glorious american boys, war crimes are war crimes, independent of sides.
@@woodsyguy2753 Boy, study the Geneva convention before spreading bullshit
@@woodsyguy2753 Not really an excuse. In war death is a sad part of reality. I'm sure if a soldier from wherever you live had shot someone while on tour you wouldn't agree to him being executed after surrendering
So while was in college in the 90s, I was an Air Force ROTC cadet. After college, I went to the Air Force and went on with my career.
However one night close to my campus at a bar a fella in his 70s came in and sat at the bar next to me. He noticed my haircut and that struck up a hours long conversation over several beers. We stayed in touch and became extremely good friends until his death in 2005.
He was a 15th AF bomber crewman during the war. I’ll never forget him talking about the BS he hears on these documentaries talking about the mortality of not shooting someone in their parachute… he said that was absolute BS….. “everyone shot the holy living crap out of everyone. The media has tried to silence this for over 50 years but in reality it was a slaughterhouse.”
Never forget TRUE war is hell fellas……
I’d say I’m lucky to live in a time where I can feel awful about this, because in WW2 it was routine for far worse atrocities to happen every single day.
Not a justification but just… I think it would kill my soul to go through such a complete and total war like WW2
You may want to look at the story of Ward M. Millar, who was shot down over North Korea in 1951. When ejecting from his F-80 both ankles were broken and he was soon captured. His story is miraculous. He escaped three months later.
The Germans killed over 3 million Soviet prisoners of war. They could simply not feed at all, leaving tens of thousands of prisoners of war to die of hunger, gathering them in a "camp", a piece of field fenced with barbed wire.
They treated civilians even worse. My relatives were shot with neighbours, apparently because they were of Polish nationality. The inhabitants of hundreds of villages were burned alive; in Bellarus, 2 million people - every third civilian was killed.
Yes and Nazi Germany used fourteen extermination camps (German: Vernichtungslager), also called death camps (Todeslager), or killing centers (Tötungszentren), in Central Europe during World War II to systematically murder over 2.7 million people - mostly Jews
My dad fought in WW II and said he killed hundreds of German soldiers but only had nightmares about one. Dad had flanked a machine gun nest and had taken aim on the gunner. Just as he was pulling the trigger the man jumps up and dad adjusted his aim and fired. Then dad realized the soldier was raising his hands and surrendering. Dad had other nightmares but only one about killing an enemy.
Should have surrendered sooner. Soldiers can't make the world move in "slow mo" when they're shooting, running, shooting, make the world move in "slow mo" so they can think hard about each decision.
Should. Have. Surrendered. Sooner.
@@JohnWHoff Lame excuse.
@@wolframkrause3476 so you have this magic ability to make the world move in slow motion?
@@JohnWHoff Still more quickly than you can handle, slick.
@@wolframkrause3476 What would your esteemed excuse be, then? Ever been in combat? Do tell, "slick."
In the late 1950s I was based at a fighter base in NSW and was very friendly with a local farmer, ex WWW I soldier, who was a sniper during the war. He never talked much about the war but one day he told me about the time he was lining up a German soldier who had stopped at the river bank. Just as he was about to shoot the German dropped his trousers, after looking around to check that no one could see him. Bill said that he just couldn't shoot him as he was sure it would haunt him for the rest of his life.
Excellent analysis. As a USMC combat vet, I appreciate your objective analysis of an incident that is anything but cut and dry; as combat rarely is.
The german pilot was shot in the back of the head. Execution style. Yeah, it's not cut and dry.
My Father in Law was in the 95th Infantry Division. He told Me about He and a few other guys coming to the top of a low rise. On the other side was a wide expanse of snow covered ground . A bunch of Germans were pulling a artillery piece across it. He said they “ just opened up and mowed them down”. He explained that if even one of them had fired a unaimed shot . That shot could easily have taken one of their lives.
In the movie The Green Berets there is a scene where John Wayne swings a rifle against a tree to break it. My Father in Law witnessed a similar thing when they came upon casualties of a recent forest firefight with both German and American Dead and wounded . One of the dead was a good friend of one of the people coming onto this scene and He was very upset. He grabbed a German K-98, swung it with one hand against a tree to break it. The rifle went off. The bullet traveling down his arm into His body Killing Him instantly.
One of My Uncles ( My Dads older Brother) was a combat engineer 289th Regimental Combat Team 75th Infantry Division , The Bulge Buster’s formerly The Diaper Division. He recalled going through many towns and places and told about seeing dead Americans who had been bound and had their bayonetted Rifles shoved up their rectums as if they were skewered. Another Uncle who was a machine gunner all through Italy in the 168th Rgmt. 34th Infantry Division told of one of His Men surrendering during a close firefight. They later found that man bound and shot through the back of the head.
My Great Uncle was in the 95th infantry division. He was a prime mover driver
Maybe the Germans were thinking of their wives and children burned to death in umpteen different German cities. Ever occur to you! ?
I don't believe you ... yes, the Americans were an undisciplined 'circus' and well known for murdering unarmed / defenceless Germans, however the Germans were highly disciplined and usually very chivalrous
Anyone who does not believe true first hand personal experiences that were told to Me are living in their own fantasy world. All Armies are made up of cross sections of their respective societies. My Uncle who saw the Men Bound with Rifles shoved up inside them like a pig on a spit Was a combat engineer in the 289th Regiment of the 75th Infantry Division. They were fresh off the boat and nicknamed the Diaper Division because they were all so young , yet they stopped the veteran 2nd SS Das Reich Division Cold at Grandmenil. To say that all German troops were “ chivalrous” Is naive and denies the facts of many atrocities that there is not space enough in this forum to list. Who do You want us to believe ran the death camps where Jews and other’s considered undesirable’s were enslaved , starved and put to death. See the Interview of Ernie Magri 14th Armored Division another of My Uncles. My Father in Law Melvin Moose Muzinich was the Son of Slavonian Immigrants. His Father was known to have been a admirer of Hitler before the War. Moose was in a Jeep with German prisoners sitting on the Hood when other “ chivalrous” German’s shot their own Men off of there and nearly killed Moose. The guy I mentioned who surrendered to German’s In Italy and was later found bound and shot by “ chivalrous “ German’s had often spoke of deserting prior to that and a higher ranking sergeant ordered My Uncle Louie Ardito to shoot that Man if He attempted to Desert. The way Louie Described that action where the Man was taken By the Germans was very similar to a close quarter’s firefight depicted in the Movie Anzio starring Robert Mitchum. Louie was in D company 133rd Infantry Regiment 34th Infantry Division. He was of the same Age and size as Audie Murphy the son of Italian Immigrant parents. At 15 years old He was welding conning tower’s on submarines at Mare Island Naval Shipyard. He described the Germans He Fought many of Whom were of the Herman Goring Division and Paratroops as very professional militarily and as prisoners and Human beings Much Like themselves. He and My Uncle who was in the 75th Div. Hauled produce after the War and then went into selling manure for landscaping. Some of their customers had been German Soldiers and they shared their experiences . Moose Married My Mother in Law Eleanor Kuhne who’s Father was educated in Germany and immigrated to the U.S. Carl was from the Hamburg Area and Built lenses for U.S. Submarine periscopes during the War and later calibrated Microscopes used in Hospitals and food processing. He made enough money in a couple of months to travel the world with His many wives . His Son Walter Kuhne followed in his footstep’s is Fluent in German and recounted how Germans Drinking their Beer sang Erica. Moose’s home was like a cowboy museum and He collected many Firearms ( We Hunted Deer together as He had Hunted with My Grandfather who was a Italian Immigrant who had fought at Adwa. Moose had all kinds of old Newspaper’s about the War Crimes Trials , Nazi Youth Daggers and flags old plows , saw blades forges ax grinding wheels etc . It was like Roy Rodgers Ranch many pictures on the internet. His Grandson My Stepson is now a doctor in the Green Beret. When He was serving in Iraq He related how when on Patrols in market places Iraqi men would sit cross legged showing the soles of their feet/ sandals ( a show of disrespect). Having been in combat with insurgents who would meld back into the population He and others would feel so angered that they would not have cared if the while country were wiped clean as a slate of glass. Later while serving as a medic for the Reconstituted Iraqi Military and Police Forces He treated wounded of both sides and recounted patrols down streets deserted like ghost towns until women with children would meekly at first singly then in pairs increasing in numbers approach seeking medical aid. He said It was the most moving and rewarding experience of His life to be able to do that for people. His Grandfather said they killed the German’s pulling the artillery piece through snow without warning or offering them a chance to surrender because it only took one man firing a unaimed shot to kill one of their own group. Moose collected and played cassette tapes of German military and Nazi marching songs I like them Too. The Germans and Italians are now our allies and have the finest militaries who have fought bravely together with the US. Many U.S. military personnel are descended from former Nazi Soldiers. I am a MAGA Republican Trump voter. Other’s in My family are hard core democrat Trump haters who’s veins pop out of their necks in spaz attacks like Marine Corps Drill instructors at the mere mention of Trump.
@@michaeldoyle5136Only a idealistic person leading a sheltered life could not believe it. I grew up and worked with veterans . In the U.S. we meet many people. My kids went to Catholic School with Korean Kids whose Grandfather was North Korean and escaped to the South before immigrating Here. I have spoken to Russians who served in WW2 and in the peacetime Russian Army. Guys who served in many armies including Rhodesians . My Second Wife has a Aunt who immigrated to the U.S. from Germany . She is about 14 years younger than Me and Has a uncle living in Germany who was a very young SS Trooper and to this Day a very Hard Core recalcitrant Nazi, She Is from Frankfurt. A good friend of Mine who speaks French as fluently as English Met His German Wife while vacationing in France. He lived in Germany working at a steel mill and in Bavaria with His Brother’s in Law building Homes and gaining fluency in German. Do not misunderstand Me when I recount truth’s I am not trying to generally vilify anyone. I only wish to point out historical accuracy. I am a Catholic but My Wife and I attend Bible study and Church Services with a Baptist Pastor who is Black and had served in Germany while in the U.S. Army in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. He has talked of the good times He spent in Germany. There are Many good Black people who’s values are Conservative MAGA like My own . It can be a touchy subject though pointing out the inaccuracies in the movie A Town Without Pity. With all the talk about White Privilege a study of the facts regarding The Bamburg Rape Trial reveal something different. Path’s of Glory 1957 also interesting based on the Souain Corporals Affair. To break down Racial barriers and prejudices , reading books By Thomas Sowell.I paved a driveway for a Man who was the executive officer of a U Boat sunk while He was hospitalized in France. We live in a increasingly mixed world but there are constants as Depicted in the video John Wayne Punches Commies or in song like Love Me I’m A Liberal and “ Ain’t I Right” by Marty Robin’s. One of My Uncles recalled going back to Italy during the Early days of Mussolini . He said people were working in fields singing “ the pick and the shovel will rule and the rich will have to work too” a Fascist Song but I detect Communism in that.
I'm a soldier with 10 combat tours from desert storm to OIF/OEF and Afghanistan and I can understand it happening and even in my heart I can agree with it as people who've never lost a brother or sister in combat can never truly understand the loss and anger a soldier whose lost those they've served with....however my honor and oath says it's wrong and a war crime and just because the enemy are barbaric doesn't mean we as soldiers should tarnish our honor by stooping to their level. We should be better than those we fight and always follow the laws of war.
"War is Hell" "Thou shall not Kill"
I remember reading about a Spitfire pilot that was shot by his own side, his plane had crashed and was on fire but he was trapped inside his burning plane. Instead of watching a brother in arms burn alive they put him out of his misery, I could not get that out of mind for a while after reading it.
I read a story about a B17 pilot that was part of a crew that belly landed at their base but caught fire as it stopped. Most of the crew got out but the co-pilot was trapped and fire forced rescuers away. The co-pilot screamed "don't let him burn to death".. The pilot took his 45 and shot his co-pilot so he wouldn't burn to death. There was an investigation and talks of court martial. In the end the pilot was fined for firing his weapon "inappropriately and nothing more was said. I saw an act of mercy. The man who shot the German pilot may have had that "blood lust" where he had just seen a buddy killed and saw the killer in his sights. He may not have even realized the German pilot was surrendering. Adrenalin makes the brain act strange. In hind sight the soldier was wrong, but in the heat of the moment he responded to a threat.
@@johnemerson1363 In the heat of the moment he murdered the German pilot. FIFY.
There was no "threat".
That's in Pierre Clostermann's book isn't it?
@@matydrum May well be. I don't remember. But he did write about those subjects.
From the movie The Great Waldo Pepper.
The Bodenplatte book has many accounts of veterans and interesting stories. I remember one of a young good looking German who was speaking perfect English insisting he comb his hair before any pictures.
I don't think this is a hard one. Emotion aside, it was murder, plain and simple. Even if the guns were firing on final approach (which I doubt) the rounds would have gone into the air because of the aircraft's slight nose-up attitude required for a belly landing.
Always an outstanding video and presentation.
Great that you've taken the 'neutrality' position when reporting this story, TJ. I am certainly no expert, but I can envision that emotions of all kinds and adrenalin have to be truly running high and often trump any logic or compassion as we see in the comfort of our homes reading this nicely produced account. Jim C.
Also the world is full of @$holes who are unable to control their emotions. One sees this type of behavior everywhere even outside of combat. Smith was one such @$hole. The uniform is irrelevant.
There's nothing to be neutral about. The pilot's war was over and he was surrendering. Shooting him was murder. "Emotion" is not an excuse for murder.
@@gandydancer9710 War crime? yep you betcha - happens all the time since Ogg killed Moog. If you've never been in combat you have no concept of the "emotions" one feels. ChuLai 1968
@@lamoe4175 That murder happens all the time is no answer to the charge that it's murder.
That would be Mỹ Lai, btw. Your point is that it was perfectly OK?
@@gandydancer9710 Typical response from a person I'm going to make the assumption has never been in a similar situation. Did I say it was OK? Did I agree it was a war crime? Just because I understand why dosen't mean I condone it. But I do get the impression you are the one person who has never ever done anything that was morally questionable and therefore get to pass judgment on those you feel don't meet your standards? RIGHT?
BTW - Kerry shot a man in the back and bragged about it? How do you feel about that?
The movie Breaker Morant covers the morality issue pretty well and reinforces your video conclusions regarding the topic. Well done presentation, thanks.
Rule 303!
"Breaker Morant", as with most movies about actual incidents, has inaccuracies. www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/breaker-morant-executed
The last time an Australian was tried by the British justice system.
@@Desertduleler_88 Actually Breaker Morant was born in Bridgewater England although he served in the Australian Army. In actual fact, as many as 20% of the Australian army were born in Britain in WW1 and if you take their parents into consideration then that number would be a lot greater. Have a nice day
@@lufe8773 Doesn’t change what the gutless British did.
Excellent video! As always! Thank you!
My grandfather was part of Darbys rangers in ww2 and they captured some German soldiers, which a few of our American troops wanted to execute. Seeing this my grandfather intervened and stopped the murder of the Germans.
Later the Americans were captured with the nazis wanting to execute the Americans. But the Germans that were saved by my grandfather and others, kept them from being murdered by the nazis. Its amazing to think that one act of kindness is why I'm here today and that grandpa had three sons who became very good business men. Our decisions have consequences for good or bad.
My grandfathers name was Norman Alloway.
They marched through Rome and saw the coliseum and spent the rest of the war in a luftwaffe prison camp.. they were treated well, but didn't have enough food.
Clifford Alloway.
Worked with a guy a couple of decades ago who was in the army in Europe. He related an incident to me. They had around 10 pow's. The Sgt ordered 4 men to take them to the command post and be back in 10 minutes. Response was that there was no way they could make it there and back in 10 minutes. He responded, "Do I have to draw you a picture?" They set off into the woods. a couple of minutes later, machine gun fire was heard, the 4 men came back and said "They tried to run!"
Yeah depends when the bill comes due and god decides the usa finally has to foot the bill.
There is a theory that, following the Malmedy massacre a few weeks previously to this incident, US commanders gave unofficial verbal orders to take no prisoners. Interestingly, on the same day the Chenogne massacre occured. It seems to have occured at a time when tensions were particularly high. It really did depend on who was on the ground.
It was quit common on all sides, either revenge or it was simply a hassle to guard prisoners so they were shot, its just that the media whitewashed the victors including the Soviets...
As a retired U.S. Marine, I have always been proud of OUR humanity, and even in more than one of the firefights that I was involved in, at the end of the firefight, our corpsmen (medics) would tend to our enemies that survived the firefight, as we took them in as prisoners of war. Therefor, I am in the belief that killing this pilot was wrong, if not a war crime altogether, regardless of what he was doing before surrendering. We are better than that, always have been, and always will be.
There was also an incident where a German pilot was seen killing bomber crews who were in parachute decent. An American pilot saw him killing 5 crew members this way. This was considered wrong on both sides. The American pilot was so enraged he shot the German aircraft and when the pilot bailed the American returned the favor and nearly emptied his guns on the German pilot.
I lived in Germany over 30 years and had contact with huge amounts of WW2 Vets to include members of my Wife's family. (I'm releasing a book about the Waffen SS Vets I knew, socialized with and interviewed before they passed away, many were famous Knights Cross holders) . One of the Luftwaffe Vets I knew was a well known Militaria and Antik dealers in Nurnbergs Altstadt. He was called up from the Hitler Youth for service in the Waffen SS, but he knew from talking to other Germans that his prospects on the Ostfront were pretty Grim as a Grenadier, so he volunteered for the Luftwaffe. Nurnberg was a hugely militarized city ( " Stadt der Reichsparteitage") with the SS Signals school there and several Luftwaffe Fighter bases there, in Herzogenaurach, and nearby Kitzingen, Ansbach, and Giebelstadt. He applied and was accepted based solely on his 10 hours flying gliders in the HJ. After a very cursory basic training, he reported for Fighter training and was posted initially to a Reichsverteidigung Schwadron. With only 7 hours in the Me-109, his Staffel was picked for duty during "Bodenplatte". He knew it was a "Himmelfahrtskommando" (Suicide mission) but there was no getting away... "befehl ist befehl" . He survived tangles with P-47s in Belgium serving as a "Jagdfliegergefreiter" (a Fighter Pilot Private) After 5 successful sorties he was promoted to Unteroffizier/Fahnenjunker. (Sergeant/Officer Candidate). After a strafing run on a US column, he was hit by concentrated Anti-aircraft fire and belly landed in a field not far from Aachen. He was recovered by SS Armored troops and evacuated to Frankfurt for reintegration into the Luftwaffe. He feigned a head and back injury, and was in a German Army Hospital when the war ended. He was initially held/interrogated by US personnel when they took Frankfurt but was released and given his Entlassungsschein. He hitchhiked his way back to Nurnberg and lived out the rest of his life.
Bear this in mind: Members of the Waffen SS were all volunteers! No one was drafted into the Waffen SS!
Tj many thanks. There are plenty of more episodes like this. Heinz Knoke, the famous I flew for the Fuhrer, was straffed by Mustangs after belly landing his 109. He was crippled for the rest of his life. The USAF pilots were somehow indoctrined two. In their minds they were killing Nazis, not military men. Thanks for the excelent account.
It's why in training, you learn to see anything else first and human second in battle. Makes it easier to kill them.
@Shawn 🏴☠️ Stafford I love Transams as well.
@Shawn 🏴☠️ Stafford Good memories from Kitt and Karr. Childhood shout take forever, or perhaps not...not sure. Yes TJ says it, I can't spot is native accent though. Greetings!
Very interesting presentation of this incident. Just an fyi regarding your pronunciation of Luftwaffe-- It's not "Left-waffe," as you pronounce it, but more accurately "Looft-waffe."
There was a different but related issue that Robert Johnson(?) wrote about in his book Thunderbolt? Going from memory from like forty something years ago, he says after he disabled a fighter in a dog fight against a pilot he felt sure was high level ace, he says he saw the convoy ejected and the ace try to bail out. He says he hit the man with a .50 cal burst, killing him in his plain. Although it didn’t seem too controversial he felt the need to explain in the nest sentence that he felt this pilot would have been in a new plain Within hrs and could have killed any number of allied pilots.
war-crime
In opinion it's the fact that he literally went out guns blazing that sealed his fate - the soldiers on the ground likely thought what if he's armed as most pilots carried pistols, and he's fanatical enough to try and take as many of them out with him as possible. I can see how they wouldn't take any risks. Also it's worth considering how absolutely brutal the Battle of the Bulge was, particularly with the Malmady Massacre fresh in their memories. Not justifying it, but context is everything in a situation like this.
Many times in Vietnam both living and dead Viet Cong were wired with booby traps for this very reason. A hostile enemy is capable of killing you...sometimes even after they are dead.
@@mosriteminioncause7741 Exactly, a young pilot too likely fairly fresh out of the indoctrination of the Hitler Youth, you never know do you?
@@goldenhawk352 Yeah very possibly so - this is what I meant by context is everything
In video it clearly said that pilot was shot in the back of the head. One shot execution style! If pilot (surrounded by bunch of armed by automatic weapons guys) was making any aggressive moves he would have been full of lead!
@@maximtyo2625 That is a fair point, it doesn't seem like it was a reaction shot, more like a revenge shot. Damn it's crazy to think what we're capable of doing to each other eh?
Hello TJ3. I really love your videos and I would like to request a video Idea. Brazil’s participation in WW2 is very unknown, can you make a video about the 1st Brazilian fighter squadron?
I did 2 tours of duty in Vietnam. All I can say is that, if you've never been in similar situations, there's no way you can adequately judge the actions of these brave soldiers. They were truly, "The Greatest Generation".
5 combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll judge them all day long.
Two wrongs do not make a right. The rules of war, as spelled out in the Geneva Convention are quite clear in killing an unarmed, defenseless soldier; it's a war crime, punishable by death. Period. There is no excuse, no justification for murder. Anger, emotion, etc., does not overrule the law. It's not a valid excuse. The highest law of all, as commanded by God, also forbids murder as stated in the Ten Commandments; "You shall not murder" - Exodus 20:1-17.
@@archangel3285 AS a combat veteran you certainly have the right to judge the matter. But I have absolute "0" respect for the opinions of these arm chair generals who have have never served in any capacity.
@Patrick-sb2sb on that point I completely concure.
@@HiTechOilCo IN what branch of the military did you serve, and where did you do your combat duty??
15:24 Thank you for this video, I’m Roy Griggs Aston to Flenory Griggs the private who shot down the plane white 13. Yes ear is terrible and things happen so quickly to live. My father spoke of this but I was a teenager the first time I heard of it. Things bothered him over the years But I can say he was Proud to serve our country and I can’t say how Proud I am of Him.
Roy Griggs 17:48
I love these videos and I think it would be cool if you also covered WW1 aviation stories.
He has several, check them out all awesome
Another interesting story about Operation Bodenplatte (base plate) is the one about the FW190D-9 black12 which was brought down by the ingestion of a Partridge into it's radiator.
Typical, those German planes will kill and eat everything in their path.
Lori or Keith?
The Geneva Convention was very specific about war crimes. We must have the Moral fortitude to distinguish our behavior above that of our enemy. The emotional aspect in war is always present and needs to be presented in ways that won't cause us to behave improperly and lower our integrity and Honor. Simply, we must live with and be responsible for our actions! Innocent people and prisoner's should never be murdered. It is what it is.
During war, it's hard to keep a difference between right and wrong. Anger and revenge are more common. And if you see for ex what the allies did to Hamburg ...
Sounds dubious... if a 109 was gonna crash land, the pilot was probably not able to control his plane properly let alone perform a strafing run to try kill someone on the ground... which he would likely miss at all... so it's definitely not an act of revenge but rather murder.
both, acts of revenge and murder of defenseless combatants are war crimes, so
In a black and white world shooting the pilot was probably morally wrong but in the heat of battle when he`d been firing his guns at you just a few seconds ago it`s difficult to condemn the man who shot him. If you`re still firing at the enemy as your plane is crashing into their camp you can`t really expect mercy a few moments later. The whole thing is just tragic from both sides.
Me as a German. And my uncle and grandpa was in war. The German was inspired from the famous German knight society rules. It was a SHAME, as a knight, to kill a beaten , unarmed enemy. And special an enemy who surrender! And to kill this not armed, not Dangerous soldier, was of course, a war crime. The USAAF, did war crimes the whole war. The bombing of cities, due like the surface of the moon. And DRESDEN! Was a war crime. And special, to the and of the war, the hunter of civilians on the street yvon the fields, hunter and killing all on the ground. As Germany was without defend,cause no luftwaffe airplane, was a war crime. But! The German never killed at ground USAF, emergency landing crew's! They never killed USAF crews who leaves plane with parachute. The police, secure the crews , against the German people, who lost everything causing this Terror bomber. And now I think. It was a failure of the German. USAF, us army, us soldiers, was so ruge, like dumb cowboy's. My ancient did a failure. We have to kill any USAF pilots we catching and get in prison. I am glad. Nice. The friend of my dad. Operation market field? Mass parachute paratroopers attack. He Standing at ground with a mg42. 1500 rounds per seconds. He kills a mass . That's was good .
@@m.b.blenkoblanka4167 many Germans absolutely did engage in this behavior during eth war. Killing prisoners, shooting pilots in parachutes, committing genocide in the concentration camps, etc.
There is no grey zone. When you're hungry and rob food in a grocery store, it's still robbery. Circumstances might inflict the judgement, but the crime is still there.
@@ottovonbismarck2443 omg. I wish, with billions of others in the world. Nuclear bomb on USA. Napalm attack on New York! Mass bombing, with Terror white Phosphor, on Los Angeles's. The USA? 1943! They got the plan, to bombing poison gas on German cities. Thems Plan? The German got less gas masks. Special no mask for children. The us ship's with the gas was delivered in a harbour in Italy. God save. The German did knowledge of this and with a surprise attack they destroyed the ships. The Italian people in the harbour city, died in a mass by a " mystery" death's. In my opinion? USA are the biggest Terrororganisation of the world history. And remember! 200 Million killed Indian! Remember, the racism against the black, long after the war, far until the 1960! The Nazis got for his racist theory's, USA teachers! And the evil Charles Darwin evolution theory! Only the fittest survived! What huge lied was and is! And Germany, before nazis Take over. Was the best place in the whole world for Jews to life! Omg.
@@m.b.blenkoblanka4167 Germany bombed London long before the allies bombed any German cities. Both sides commited acts that could be considered war crimes, not just the allies. Have you ever heard of the holocaust?
During WWII my mother was married to a Polish airman. She says that a German pilot after parachuting was caught on a telegraph pole and that one of my father's colleagues climbed the pole and wrapped the parachute chords around his neck strangling him but it looked like an accident. Later they buried the German. I consider this a war crime and this incident is the same. It sounds like the German had lots of guts still shooting it out as he tried to control his crash landing.
Tragic. Yet, as you stated/quoted, sometimes the moral lines are indistinguishable in war. For example, snipers are rarely shown mercy when captured, because they're usually captured by troops that just saw one of their buddies die at the sniper's hand. A similar situation may or may not be what happened here. Not making excuses, and also not claiming that I, in anger, couldn't do the same thing. Victors hold war crimes trials, but rarely are their comrades tried, even though the same things happen on both sides. As you quoted, "War is hell", and it can bring out the best or worst in people.
You also have to take into account how late in the war this event happened. A lot of American GI’s are grizzled veterans. Most have watched friends die. Then, you have the youngsters, new replacements, zero combat experience, also the logistical and supporting units that don’t fight on the frontlines. While in the USMC I found that the most blood thirsty Marines were the ones who didn’t hold a front line infantry MOS. This was murder and done so by someone who simply wanted to boost their ego, to have a story to tell when they got home, a coward.
Very good take ,on the guy who did it....Whoever he was. Believable.
A downed pilot can't exit his plane, shoot his pistol at someone then raise his arms in surrender with confidence he'll be spared. If the pilot is firing from his aircraft as he is crash-landing, he's doing the same thing.
Maybe, but whilst hes in the air he is a combatant. On the ground, he isn’t. Even if he was still shooting, if he surrendered, he surrendered.
Me as a German. And my uncle and grandpa was in war. The German was inspired from the famous German knight society rules. It was a SHAME, as a knight, to kill a beaten , unarmed enemy. And special an enemy who surrender! And to kill this not armed, not Dangerous soldier, was of course, a war crime. The USAAF, did war crimes the whole war. The bombing of cities, due like the surface of the moon. And DRESDEN! Was a war crime. And special, to the and of the war, the hunter of civilians on the street yvon the fields, hunter and killing all on the ground. As Germany was without defend,cause no luftwaffe airplane, was a war crime. But! The German never killed at ground USAF, emergency landing crew's! They never killed USAF crews who leaves plane with parachute. The police, secure the crews , against the German people, who lost everything causing this Terror bomber. And now I think. It was a failure of the German. USAF, us army, us soldiers, was so ruge, like dumb cowboy's. My ancient did a failure. We have to kill any USAF pilots we catching and get in prison. I am glad. Nice. The friend of my dad. Operation market field? Mass parachute paratroopers attack. He Standing at ground with a mg42. 1500 rounds per seconds. He kills a mass . That's was good . war crime
@@m.b.blenkoblanka4167 Then Germany shouldn't have bombed London or other civilian centers, shouldn't have invaded other nations without just cause like Poland, and shouldn't have killed prisoners of war, committed genocide against the Jews and others, etc.
Yes, Nazi Germany was such a model society of knightly virtues.....NOT!
M. B. BlenkoBlanka ; your comments sound very warped, and lack historical fact. You lack moral compuse. Maybe you missed your time in history as a very defeated, very dead Nazi. May God have mercy on people like you ; or maybe not.
Germans most certainly did execute downed pilots. It wasn't an institutional practice. But there are dozens of accounts of this happening.
My dad was first officer in the merchant navy in ww2. He came close to getting shot by the captain one time when they were attacked by a BF109. My dad was on the anti aircraft gun, and he managed to shoot the plane down. It belly landed off from the ship and the pilot was standing on the wing before it sank.
The captain told him to shoot the pilot over and over, even holding his pistol to dads head. Dad just stated the Geneva Convention rules of war, and said no. The captain shoved dad out of the way and shot the pilot. It was a crazy time, and affected people in very different ways.
Your dad did the right thing and shows moral strength in contrast with the captain.
Your dad did the right thing and shows moral strength in contrast with the captain.
Your dad did the right thing and shows moral strength in contrast with the captain.
Like you say its impossible to say since we were not there but from first glance i would have called this a War Crime, but again we were not there to determine that fact. Here is a good story to come out of that war, My grandfather was a Luftwaffe Ace of aces having flown in many campaigns like Battle for Holland, France, Britain and North Africa and then defense of the Reich from early 1943, with over 170 kills in early 1944 flying a Focke wulf Fw190 A8 he noticed a lone P47 Thunderbolt with a smocker trail and heading towards Germany, at first my GF thought why was this american heading towards Germany? then the thought his instruments mu st also be shot up including his compass, My GF slowly pulled up beside him. A young American was noticeably afraid when he noticed the Balkan cross on the fuselage and then the kill marking on the FW190 tail section. With hand signals my GF showed the American pilot that eh was heading in the wrong direction, so he signaled for him to follow him and my GF banked off heading towards the Dutch coast, at First the American did not follow but eventually did. once they reached the Dutch coast my GF saluted the American and banked off again flying for his airbase. Years later in the 1950's at a Afrika Korps Reunion which was held in München they met again and remained friends their whole lives, writing letters to each other keeping in touch and then meeting up at the re-unions, my GF also went to the states to visit him on a few occasions during the 60s and 70s, once they got too old for that type of travel they just wrote or phoned each other. My grandfather ended the war with the Rank of Colonel flying ME262's out of Parchim airfield, he lived to the age of 97 and died in 2010.
Bad sh*t happens in war sadly. As the allies were victorious, very few allied soldiers faced any war crime tribunals when some probably should have.
...und getan haben!
muh war crimes
you sound like a leftist
His weapon, the aircraft, was still in a combat situation whilst in the air despite that fact that it was going to hit the deck, thus the pilot still using the weapon. The pilot was effectively disarmed of his main weapon once it was stationary on the ground. So given the fact that his weapon was on the ground and his arms were in the air he had surrendered. He became a disarmed non combatant in that instant.
This was a war crime, just like all the other war crimes when murdering unarmed surrendering or surrendered ex combatants.
When I was an apprentice, so pre 1982, and we were getting geared up to do a job the old guy close to retirement told us all his first hand tale of combat in Normandy after D-Day. He was the driver of the lead vehicle of a small armoured column consisting of an armoured car, a churchill tank, another armoured car and and at the tail another Churchill tank. They were moving along a road with high hedges. They lost contact with the rear Churchill so they had to reverse back along the road because they could not turn around. They found the Churchill brewed up, with its turret blown off and the crew all dead, I wont go into the details we heard on that. The commander of the Churchill was 23 and had been newly married just prior to D-Day. The Churchill had been fired at through a gap in the high hedge that led into some fields.
They had got out of their vehicles to check on the Churchill crew behind the cover of the high hedges and to have a quick sortie to ascertain what had hit the Churchill tank with such devastation. They spotted the Tiger tank moving across the fields and immediately radioed for some artillery assistance as they could not shoot at it themselves due to location and no chance to bring any guns to bear. The very first ranging round that came in landed directly in front of the Tiger as it was moving. The driver made a major error in coming to a halt directly over the crater of that first round.
We were told that they were all screaming at that radio to the artillery, "Fire again", "fire again", blam, one destroyed Tiger tank with a round right through the top of the turret. He said that the crew in the turret were totally dead along with the turret, the other two crew men, the driver and radio op / machine gunner from the body of that tank got out but they were on fire. They ran over to the two German tiger crew and had their fires put out and assistance and first aid was administered, they were pretty badly burned up.
The bit in all of it that stands out to me to this very day was at the very end of the tale. He was just staring ahead and down at the ground shaking his head deep in some thought for about 30 seconds or so. Then he just said: a fucking shame, just a fucking shame, they were just guys, just like us. I found that quite a sobering and very surprising proclamation at the end of what he had just told us. Instead of just summarily killing the Germans that had just killed their friends in the Churchill, they administered as much aid to them as they could.
See the difference when compared to what happened to that German pilot?
Germany didnt sign or take part in the Geneva convention so technically it wasnt.
@@DankNoodles420 What does that have to do with the price of cheese?
But it was an American who performed the execution or did I miss something. Didn't America sign up to the Geneva convention or am I still missing something from your comment?
@@DankNoodles420 Germany did , it was Japan and Soviet union , they did not.
Damn, just damn. I'm surprised they didn't just watch or give them mercy kills. Good story, happy-ish ending.
The line that divides right from wrong gets often crossed by all parties........such is the tragedy of war.
First hand account could and did often create a heightened level of anger and revenge . It’s hard to remove this element when your comrade or friend is killed or maimed . To remain humane in your thought and soul belief requires the highest of human compassion and dignity. We can’t expect all to have that during the ugliness of war .
"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." -William Tecumseh Sherman
or, "the price of peace is war" Inevitably, you can't have one without the other.
Sherman was a war-criminal
I recall a German wing commander who told those under him if he caught them machinegunning defenseless pilots hanging under their chutes, he'd shoot them down himself. Don't recall his name, but this WAS NOT an empty threat. And his people knew it.
It was Adolf Galland, General of Luftwaffe Fighter forces. Goering even asked him if he would consider killing allied pilots who had bailed from disabled aircraft, and after Galland told him he would not do it, all Goering could say was that he thought that's what Galland would say.
The american pilots killed enemy pilots who succesfully bailed out of their aircraft. They did that in Normandy and in Romania. Probably everywhere they fought. One romanian pilot said that everytime he shot at an american war plane he tried to shoot it in such a way that it will give the other guy a chance to survive. The americans did not respect the Geneva convention. They committed many war crimes.
There was a particular Australian Pilot that did this poor behaviour often
@@adamchristo3082 That's why they called him killer
While he was in his plane and able to continue fighting, he was a combatant doing his job to the very end. As soon as he crashed landed and getting out of his plane, unless he had his side arm out and shooting, then he was no longer a combatant and was murdered. It happened right there next to the air base, therefore in that occasion the commanding officer of that base is also complicit of a war crime since he had it covered up. It doesn't matter if the person that shot him just saw his buddy next to him get killed by that guy, there are defined rules between who is a combatant and who's not. Another one is enemy shooting Medics, Medics are not combatants, unless they are actively shooting back, however they were readily shot when running out to care for a wounded soldier. Shooting a Medic is also a war crime, I wonder how many people were charged for doing that. Hard to figure out who did it but in the case of this downed pilot, there's no doubt and the shooter should have been charged. The Peterson case is different. There's no doubt as to the guilt of the German pilot and justice was served on the spot, otherwise that German Pilot probably would have landed on the ground, returned to his unit to fly more missions shooting aviators that had to abandon their air craft. Peterson wasn't out shooting all the German pilots that had to eject, he only shot that one.
Two wrongs do not make a right. The rules of war, as spelled out in the Geneva Convention are quite clear in killing an unarmed, defenseless soldier; it's a war crime, punishable by death. Period. There is no excuse, no justification for murder. Anger, emotion, etc., does not overrule the law. It's not a valid excuse. The highest law of all, as commanded by God, also forbids murder as stated in the Ten Commandments; "You shall not murder" - Exodus 20:1-17.
@@HiTechOilCo war is hell
Years ago I read an article concerning air combat units conducting operations over Japan. The aircrew were advised to not parachute or crash land in cities they had just bombed! Their survival could not be guaranteed!
This case aside, there are times when prisoners can not be taken. When the mission doesn't allow the manpower or resources to handle or care for them or when releasing them would allow your presence to become known.
I can tell youve never served. Ever heard of the geneva convention? yeah thats a war crime and anyone that takes part in that is certainly going to face UCMJ in this day and age.
My father witnessed such things happening just after D-Day.
It’s either kill or be killed. If you let the enemy live today he may kill you tomorrow.
@@robertpulliam9973 that’s some big talk you’re talking like you’re speaking from experience when did you serve?
@@Meatrocket69 I served in the Marine Corps and the Air Force. Did two tour's in Iraq. There's war in theory and there's war in reality.
I'd say, technically the answer is simple: Strafing an enemy anti-air emplacement isn't a war crime. Shooting a wounded surrendering soldier at point-blank is (if he, in fact, _was_ surrendering properly and not wielding his sidearm or anyting like that). I don't think the fact that he was very much fighting just minutes or even seconds ago is an excuse, since that could probably be said about most soldiers surrendering due to battle wounds and/or destroyed rides.
That being said, it is hard to morally condemn the shooter without knowing more about his reasons. Maybe he just lost his best friend to german strafing. Maybe he was scared senseless. Maybe he was adrenalized to a point were his only thought was "kill those bastards". But maybe he just saw it as an opportunity to increase his 'kill count' without any actual risk. I guess, nobody here knows.
So, a war crime? Yes. Understandable or even (morally) forgivable? Maybe.
Same goes for _both_ parachute-hunting pilots, in my view. Even though the reasons for the allied pilot are pretty obvios and comprehensible, while we can only speculate about possible reasons that lead the german pilot to commit such a crime.
Disclamer: German here, so I might be biased. But I'd like to think my reasoning wouldn't change if the sides were inverted. Which, I'm sure, happened way to often, too.
Definitely possible that he came in shooting while landing but I find that very unlikely. If he’s landing from engine failure he’s focused on landing not strafing plus I’m not a physics expert but it’s likely firing would throw off his control of an idling plane so even if he wanted to keep firing, wouldn’t have done it.
14:37
The American next to the pilot is 1:1 Eugene Sledge in The Pacific.
Nice video. However, as a multi-tour Combat Veteran myself those that are under fire fire rarely, if ever take the time at that moment to rember "The rules of War" unless you have been fortunate enough to have received substantially more training on that subject than most soldiers. Any reaction has to be, of necessity the result of training as often taking the time to think about a situation are fatal. Emotions run high in those situations, sometimes with unfortunate consequences.
This is a similar perspective from my Veterans I have spoken with. Thanks
As an old Screaming Eagle Squad Leader, while training plays an important part, it ultimately comes down to leadership. If the leaders fail to follow the UCMJ and allow things to happen, those things can become the norm. It runs the gamut from looting to murder and can destroy discipline and cohesion.
A Canadian infantry man in Afganistan shot a very badly wounded Taliban who was suffering badly.
The soldier was court marshalled and found guilty.
@@DavidMScott-cs8pp Mercy killing is still frowned upon but state sanctioned killing is smiled upon.
My uncle Lt. August Garcea was a P-47 pilot in the 358th FG. His last mission was on November 22, 1944. On that mission, his P-47 (Ser.# 44-20234) was damaged in a dog fight with a group of Me109s near Hagenau, France. He belly-landed his plane successfully and later examination of his aircraft showed only minor damage. This is where the story gets interesting. The 358th Fighter Group developed a reputation for strafing anything on the ground that even looked like it might be used as transport for German equipment, personnel or ammunition. Gun camera footage often showed that these attacks were justified when the strafing attacks led to secondary explosions. Their eight .50 caliber guns could do horrific damage to any military or farm vehicle they targeted. The 358th FG were easily identified by their orange tails by other USAAF forces, German ground troops and civilians.
After the war when his crash site could be safely approached, he was found buried next to his slightly damaged plane wrapped in his parachute. After a forensic examination of his body, it was determined that he was not killed by gunshot wounds. Instead, it was surmised that German civilians killed him after surviving his crash landing. The wounds appeared to have been made by a pitchfork probably wielded by angry civilians who knew that he was a pilot from the group that had a reputation for strafing horse-drawn farm wagons and civilian vehicles. The civilians on the ground were either forced by the German military to use civilian transport to haul ammunition and supplies or did so willingly. In any case, there are some missing facts that can only lead to the conclusion that he was killed after leaving his aircraft. He may or may not have been actively trying to surrender to his captors. There is no evidence either way and no witnesses to provide any information. So these incidents were perpetrated by both sides and may or may not have been justified.
These Germans probably had relatives killed by USAF pilots purposely bombing civilians like they did at Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, etc etc. I don't feel too sorry for pilots regardless of nationality whose purpose is to terrorize the civilians. Maybe that was not your uncle's purpose, so his death was unfortunate. There were B-17 crew who bombed civilians in order to break the civilians' will to fight. They were terror raids on a helpless population. That some of these B-17 crews shot down were hung by the locals, what would you expect? Had the Americans been in a similar scenario, they would have hung German aircrews and rationalized it. Someone responsible for killing women, children, old folks deserves no less than a noose around his neck. They hung the Nazis at Nuremburg for doing the same didn't they?
@@wolframkrause3476 I understand your sentiment, but you might recall when German bombers terrorized London and targeted civilians. I'm sure there were reprisals against some Luftwaffe pilots, but as I understand, most shot down over England were treated fairly well. I suppose you would favor hanging those German pilots too, huh?
After all..in your own words, they were "responsible for killing women, children, old folks deserves no less than a noose around his neck. "
if I had been one of those German civilians capturing a pilots from such a criminal unit, I'd had done the same
The soldiers on both sides looking at the plane together “well would you look at that”
Awesome vid and information
Just a friendly piece of advice don’t shoot at the people that are fixing to capture you
I'm now 71 and almost all of my relatives fought in WW2 , or were involved in war production. Just one of those things that happen and just so close to VE day. None hears of the "Wild Boar" hunts the Gestapo used to have on shot down allied airmen, or tying them up with phone wire and throwing them in to burning buildings. War is a risky affair, particularly if you are in the front lines.
The diary of a german fighter pilot, Johann Twietmeyer of III./JG77 shows an interesting perspective. First, their commander was shot dead by a Mustang while hanging on his parachute after bailing out. They were digusted and infuriated, but nobody of his Gruppe ever did the same or retaliated. In their eyes, the enemy fighter pilots were the same as them. Pilots who tried to shoot down the enemies planes, not kill them. In their pov, allied bomber pilots weren´t the same. For them, allied bomber pilots were just murderers that were killing civilians by the thousands. They had little respect for them, but they never thought about shooting them after they bailed. There are people on all sides of the war that made the war either even worse or a tiny little less worse.