The World War II Ace Found Still in His Cockpit After 24 Years
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2022
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This is the story of Hans Bartels, the German ace from WWII who would be shot down, but then eventually found after 24 long years, still in the cockpit of his Messerschmitt Bf-109. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. Hope you enjoy! Please like, comment, and subscribe. #WW2 #WWIIHistory #WarThunder Have an idea for one of my videos? Submit it here! forms.gle/91xwbGKQsRCNZmwm9
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My great uncle flew a Thunderbolt and was shot down over Italy June 7 1944. And survived! I have all the local write ups and original Western Union messages that were sent home. At first, the only word family had was that he was missing. Italians hid him for 5-6 days until allies caught up to his area. They hid him in a cave and fed him wine and goat cheese. LT Charlie Turner died in 1996.
I'm sure it was stressful and he got tired of it, but chilling in an Italian cave with wine and goat cheese does sound pretty nice.
@@cliffordcrimson7124 once he got back to the states and had some leave he helped train Black pilots. On one occasion a student bumped into his plane and he had to bail out then too. Later in life he didn’t fly anymore. Retired from Lockheed in Marietta Ga.
@@JDrumnavy not sure I'd fly after that either. My grandfather was a guard at Redstone before he joined the OSS/CIA. I know he traveled to Marietta and I assume it had to do with Lockheed, but he never told me what all he did there. Perhaps they knew each other.
Movie
Movie
Movie
U play HIM!
Deepest respect!
40-years ago, a Dutch friend brought me to a War museum in his City at Enschede, Netherlands.
There, a similar story of a German pilot that was recently discovered inside his Messerschmidt..shot down after a mission.
All of the German pilot's personal belongings were intact..his dog tag..his map,where his supposed Target was encircled..his Walther PPK sidearm.
The other half of his dog tag and jewelries were sent back to his mother, who was still alive in Germany at that time.
@Manfred Richthofen -- Wie geht es Ihnen all die Jahre, mein guter Herr? Übrigens, Sie sind ein Adliger; warum hast du das "von" weggelassen?
All who fell should be given full honours and familys told they are found it is only decent and correct . May they be at peace.
What about his remains? Was his body well preserved or decomposed?
I was an Auxiliary PO In Nassau Cty Long Island in 2004-2006. My partner in the radio patrol car was a Luftwaffe veteran well in his 80’s who was shot down in his fighter planes 3 times - last time he was captured and spent two years in a U.S. POW Camp In Texas. He went back to Germany after the war and then came to Long Island to live.
One night, our patrol duty was to guard a synagogue on the Anniversary of KRISTALLNACHT. He was not a Nazi, just an airman doing his duty. I am Jewish, as were others in out Aux unit, and we became friends. He asked me if I saw the irony that a Luftwaffe veteran who flew a Messerschmitt in the Battle of Britain was now guarding a synagogue with a Jewish party Aux Police Officer. It certainly WAS ironic - one for the books!!!
btw, he lost a nephew who was a US MARINE in Iraq!
There is a Finnish pilot called Kauko Ikonen and his fighter plane "Myrsky" still buried in a field in Nakkila, Finland. The plane went so deep into the field that it was impossible to remove neither the plane nor the pilot. The place of the accident is both a memorial and a grave, in fact the smallest cemetery in Finland, for one person only. The crash took place in 1947.
Honestly as a pilot in training I would love to be buried in my plane just not like that
come on dude it's hardly impossible to remove it. They can build modern buildings in Norway, right, with modern foundations? They can get a goddam WW2 fighter out of the ground.
the war was over in 1945
What type of aircraft?
@@craigbeatty8565 a destroyed one
Years ago at the bottom of the sea near Leros Island,Hellenic Air Force divers had found the remains of a Junker air plane. They also found the sceleton of the pilot and his watch. After some research they found out his ID. The watch was sent to his family. They managed to lift up the plane and now is seated in Decelia - Tatoi Air Force Museum ,Athens Greece.
AaaAA
"sceleton"
skeleton
That was an odd typo.
Skeleton
And all those airmen and seamen who went under their dark-cold grave at sea we will never recover them. They may rest in peace forever there.
I was one of them.
I remember some
And it is not sarcasm
Some years ago an aircraft archaeology group traced Spitfire shot down in East Anglia in the Battle of Britain with the pilots remains still in the cockpit. At the time his only surviving relative was a sister and he was given a full military funeral.
It transpired when it was first shot down on farmland the farm workers reported it as it made a hole about 20 feet deep in the field and there was nothing left above ground of the actual fuselage. It was a fairly remote part of the country and they reported it to their employer who said "I expect someone knows about it" and left it at that. A couple of years later some army engineers happened by and they told them about it their response was; Keep quiet or the squadron commander will make us to dig it up.
Tragic that he had been posted missing while his wife and most of his family never knew what happened to him because people just could not be bothered.
That’s the British mentality. Not my problem!
@@claywebb8199 Given this is about WW2 - where the British very decidedly could be bothered about rather a LOT of major things, are you off you gourd or just trolling?
@@Ralnon - the original post speaks for itself, read it rather than getting on your soapbox and replying to mine.
Clearly no one could be bothered to investigate it, not the farmer or the Army and hence the pilots family suffered needlessly for decades. Not that it particularly matters as he was German, but he could have been an allied pilot.
@@claywebb8199 obviously you need to read the original post again, the aircraft was a Spitfire ergo he was an allied pilot.
um yeah like they had a clear notion that it was a plane
Can easily understand why a wedding ring was needed to ID the pilot. Participated in the recover of a 56 FG/61 FS P-47 near (Mariakerke) Lippeloo, Belgium, back in the early 2,000s. The a/c was hit by flak while strafing a train knocking out the engine. The pilot (1/Lt William Grosvenor) put the a/c into a steep climb and bailed out near the climb apex and survived. The first thing recovered during the dig were metal light-weight superstructure and machine guns. The deepest was the engine block together with everything behind it - compressed into a block not much more than 6 feet long if that. Curiously a medical kit was left intact together with the bandaids, etc, in it.
Wow! Cool
You can pick up on the story if you search for the film it was done for - 'Last Best Hope'. (2006). A great story of 'Bill's evasion (E&E 1881), ultimate betrayal & capture in Brussels, then his unexpected freedom & liberation . . . after the 'Phantom Train' ride . . . in which 1,370 political prisoners and 41 'captured evading' airmen (with excellent stories of their own) were loaded on a train bound for Germany that ended up being shunted back and forth along tracks for three days, thanks to the excellent efforts of the Belgian Resistance. What a lucky war experience for a 24 year-old kid. As a war-time 'ground tourist, he saw the world from all sides.
I was in the Navy for 20 years and participated in a couple of crash recovery /clean ups.. I've seen a J79 Phantom engine crushed like an accordion, until it was about 7 to 8 feet long.
done a few recoveries, it's pretty much the same on single engine aircraft, despite the forces involved during a crash it is amazing what can survive, I saw a instrument panel compass intact and functional from about 12 feet down
@Al Allen - Lighten up Al.
It would have been good if you would have actually referenced Mr. Werner Girbig's name. He was the German gentleman that located the wreckage and human remains. Over the years he recovered dozens of missing German pilots and wrote, or co-authored several books.
Do you know where Werner Girbig exactly found the bf109? As was mentioned it was found near the castle Gudenau which narrows it down to about 3 kilometers from where I live.
@@NoSTs123 I used to have his book, Vermisst! It mentions the recovery in detail. Alas, my books are stored at my son's place in Germany and I recently moved to South Korea. Sorry
@@theaviationarchaeologist8519 Thanks anyways. Im buying the book from Medimops.
And again very well done! I know I'm late, but here are some facts: Oberfeldwebel Heinrich "Heinz" Bartels flew about 500 combat missions and shot down 99 enemy aircraft. 2 Spitfires on the Channel front (1941), 47 on the Eastern front, 24 in the Mediterranean and 26 on the Western front. His score includes - of course - many Soviet fighters, 9 Spitfires, 15 P-38, 9 P-47 and 11 P-51! And you are right, TJ, Bartles flew his final mission with his "YELLOW 13" - a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 (Werknummer 130359).
Thank you for the specifics. My uncle was also a fighter pilot and survived the war. My own father was a Marine and fought in the Pacific. He also survived. I have great admiration for Heinz. These were men of great skill, bravery and dedication. He likely knew that Germany had already lost the war by late 1944 yet he stayed dedicated to duty. Men like Heinz, my Uncle and Father are not taught such things but are made of it. The times "quickened" them but quality of the steel was inherent. Respect is due to them regardless of their nation's cause.
@@brunothepug8807 Thank you for your interesting words. And your sentence "Respect is due to them regardless of their nation's cause" hits the nail on the head. I wish that all commenters could show this respect.
@@josefhorndl3469 Do not let such ignorance bother you Josef. Those that took an oath and fulfilled their duty understand and the rest usually do not. I would say Navy sailors perhaps felt this sense of mutual loss most strongly. There was a moment of elation that the enemy's ship was going down and not yours follow by silence of respect that the sea, a common enemy, had taken fellow mariners to the depths.
He claims to have shut down 99 aircraft. I don’t believe any Nazi propaganda.
I went scuba diving in Guam in the 1980’s and there was a WWII Japanese Zero offshore in about 80 feet of water. Someone had placed a mannequin in the cockpit, and it was a great joke to take a new diver out to the site and have him dive down on the plane and see a pilot still in the seat!
Wonder if its still there
DEFINITELY one of your best " stories " - a missing warrior is given his final peace , after being discovered 24 years from the last time he was seen alive
Thanks!
Yeah his a great story teller
Where dog tags used by pilots as well as normal infantry?
It just seems i never came across any pilot body identified via dog tags..
He suffered a horrible death and he deserved it, the Nazi bastard. I’m glad Schilling Annihilated him, I won’t even honor the name of this racist swine. Death to all racist Nazis. This is a story I had not heard, so happy today to hear that this Kraut bastard was buried deep by the mighty guns of the P 47 thunderbolt…
Do you know guys, this is not a game. These racist sub-humans would have slaughtered the rest of us. And we note that we did not slaughter them after thoroughly defeating them, Although we should have executed all of the military Nazis. I mean it.
His 100 kills should have been against the subhuman filth hitler, and 99 of his top generals and colonels. Then he would have been hero.
3:11 this is why the aces of JG 27 stand out to me. There is some argument that some of their kill claims were inflated but to just *survive* against the RAF/USAAF, let alone be very successful against them was incredibly impressive. These guys held their own against the toughest enemy imaginable.
I mean highly unlikely because of how rigid the kill confirmation system was in the Luftwaffe and you would most likely be court martialed for lying about it.
It is the old "Westfront" versus "Ostfront" discussion. In 1944 the Soviets also had Spitfires and other Western fighters, and on the Ostfront you also could encounter the USAAF, for example over Ploesti in Rumania. And after bailing out over the Reich you could return to your unit and live to fight another day. In the East you were either killed instantly or went to a POW camp to die a long and painful death... only few downed pilots like Erich Hartmann returned after years from the Soviet Union.
Besides, the Soviet fighters and their pilots weren't that much worse than their western allies in 1944 and 1945.
All in all, I strongly believe being a German fighter pilot on the Eastern Front wasn't easier than in the West.
@@stscc01 No no it's not my intention to say the units on the Eastern Front had it particularly easy. There were challenges unique to every setting. Personally I think I'd be more scared to fly a 109 deep into the Russian steppe than the Libyan desert. That said I think in 1941-43 at least the RAF were considerably more dangerous opponents than any other allied fliers. They had the most experience, they had, at that time, the best planes. Units transitioning to the East from combat against the RAF tended to do amazingly on the Eastern Front, but units coming from the Eastern Front to the west usually had a hard time. But again, that's just an evaluation of fighter-vs-fighter combat, not the difficulties or horrors of each front.
@@DocLeQuack I make mention of it because there was a scandal in JG 27 where someone was caught making totally false victory claims and you can barely mention the wing without someone chiming in about this, but yeah I generally do take Luftwaffe victory claims at the word. The false claims were, in fact, very rare.
@@hanswolfgangmercer You're right, 1941 to 1943 the RAF was for sure the most dangerous adversary for the Luftwaffe. But especially the Soviets did in fact improve quite a lot from 1943 on. Not only did they get western aircraft and improved their tatics, but the newer Soviet aircraft were quite good, too.
And, like in the West, the Luftwaffe was outnumbered almost always in the last years of the war. The war in the air wasn't the same on the Ostfront, and of course many pilots had difficulties to adapt to the air war over Germany when they were ordered there. But that was also true for pilots coming from the West to the Eastern Front. A good friend of our family was flying on the Eastern Front with JG52 from 1943 on until the end of the war. He wasn't too happy about the comments that it was "much easier" to fly against the Soviets... ;-)
He returned from the SU in 1954, after being a POW for 9 years...
I know of a Maltese based English Photo pilot who was found in I think the seventies in former Yugoslavia, where his plane had crashed. And in Denmark, a German fighter plane was found many years later, in a now dry moor, where he as a new pupil had landed and had sunk in his plane, never to be found, and the war ended shortly after. So not much search was done for him. When the plane was finally found, it still had guns with ammo ready.
I was at the crash site in Villip myself and at the Air Force Museum in Berlin Gatow where his parachute is on display. Contrary to what is shown in the video, his plane did not slide over the ground and then come to a standstill. His remains were found at a depth of 8 m. Well researched !
So he landed it and died inside from wounds?
Or went in nose first?
@@dionsanchez2775 if a persons body (and aeroplane) is found about 7 metres (21 feet) underground, it indicates that his aeroplane hit the ground at speed, probably under full power/throttle and drove itself that deep under impact. Not the sort of landing one would hope for !! so I think nose first
It's a wounder no-one saw the plane crash, as he crashed not far from a inhabited area 🤔.
When aircraft are spotted or they can be heard ,people take shelter.
I know he was the enemy at the time but I'm glad they found him and got closure for the family.
One thing is very important : his family were Hitler fans ? If yes, then, they are/were monsters. And he was definitely a POS.
He wasn't the enemy,he was a fighter against new wolrd order
Thanks for watching guys! Did my best here. Please consider subscribing. :)
Heinz is still one of my favorite aces so I’m bit picky… you omitted so many things about him that I don’t know where to begin. Never lost a wingman (even untrained greenhorns assigned in 1944 to JG27 as replacements), almost faced court martial in JG5 after a drunken celebration which luckily led to him being transferred to Med, he was able to dogfight with Lightning’s while flying Bf-109 G6 with 2x20mm cannons under wings (considered no match for late US fighters at this stage).
If you want I have a scan from Jäverblatt about him, quite a read, albeit in German.
Glad you at least showed the cockpit glass that was recovered from the crash site. It bears marks of 0.5inch bullets and the angle suggest that he was caught slightly from the right side and low 6. Having lost his newbie wingman (his old wingman departed for Christmas leave) the odds caught up with Heinrich and he was most likely heavily injured or directly killed. The armor plate was no match for American 0.5inch bullets and if I remember the parachute was intact so he didn’t attempt to bail out.
Thx for the story and if you’re ever in Bad Godesberg do light a candle on his grave… should you have one more to spare, few meters from Heinrich rests Johannes Steinhoff with his wife (he lived in the town after he retired).
A comprehensive analysis of the Luftwaffe's Jagdflieger Experten is Mike Spick's book 'Luftwaffe Fighter Aces'. He rates Heinz Baer (220 victories) as the top all-fronts Luftwaffe ace of WW2 . Bartels' victories (99 apparently) are listed in each theatre, but his career unfortunately isn't discussed in the book. Awarded the Ritterkreuz, he's recorded as KIA Nr Bonn on the 23rd Dezember '44. Strike rate around 5 sorties per kill. Bubi Hartmann's was 4.05. It's interesting that, of the 3rd and 4th highest scorers, Günther Rall and Otto Kittel (275 & 267 victories respectively) were 8th and 7th in the highest strike rates list - at just over 2 sorties per kill. To survive in the intensity of dogfights while marking up scores/sorties like those of Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rudorffer and Baer (all above 1000 sorties) indicates these men were phenomenally gifted (and fortunate) pilots. I believe Hartmann was shot down or crash landed 16 times!
Kinda creepy when you think about it.
*You see some large object off in the distance. You move closer to it and realize it's a plane, a BF109. "That's neat, I found a crashed WWII plane." You think. Looking closer you see something inside. After pushing the snow off the front of the canopy you realize that you're staring into the eyes of a frozen corpse.*
Uhm, great story, and it's wasn't like the 30 ft deep ice-overgrown P38's Lightnings left in Alaska or Greenland or something, getting out of fuel (and without pilots). This was marshy terrain, in Germany, and no it's not always winter there;)
????
Senator Biden joins the chat
@@waterheaterservices hahaha
That would be some story, but this plane augered in "deep in the ground" per the re-teller of the tale
My grand father - Waffen SS
with the 12th SS
Used to tell me he often found wrecked aircraft along his retreat from Normandy
bodies found most the time still in the planes
Where did he end up as pow, i was always curious if the ss had their own camps in the west
The P 47 was a tank and shooting one down was never a guarantee. Even with cannon grade ammunition there was no guarantee. Extremely impressive.
A great lump of a fighter better suited to ground attack than aerial warfare.
Yes,but dont forget,the Germans had 20 mms canons.
Some of the best graphics I have seen on YT for a while and skilfully edited. Congrats!
A barracuda crashed at Maydown, Derry ,Ireland in the late forties. It was at the edge of a shallow lake. the authorites let it there until ,1970 ,without any considertions for the pilot .They dug him out and buried him in 1970....
My mother is from Berlin, she was in the Luftwaffe during the war , her job was to scramble the Messerschmitt fighters as they were picked up on radar…
My grandma was a air raid warden during the battle of Britain she would mark and report unexploded bombs and had a bucket of sand for fire bombs.
My second cousin fought in the Battle of Berlin. First Polish Army (1944-1945), fought with the Red Army. Shot in the left arm.
So would 101 sqn be listening for her and blocking her?
The p51 mustang is my favorite airplane. It sounds amazing flying over head, kinda like a muscle car from the 60’s-70’s. This was an excellent video. Much better than some of the WWII movies that have come out in the past 10 or more years. Watching the battles in the sky in your video was so excellent.
There is a WWII plane about 60 miles from here in the lower part of the western Idaho “panhandle”. My son and some of his buddies went to try to find it off of a trail (they were on 4 wheelers) used by hunters, motorcycles, horseback riders, and game. The plane has been looted quite heavily since it’s discovery in the 1960’s (I think that’s when). My son said it was hard to find even when looking right at it. It’s a heavily wooded area, with many smaller mountains. I think it was found by loggers tears ago when doing “clear cutting” logging (which is illegal now.
Tom Cruise has a P-51.
My grandfather Joseph Gagnon from south network Maine flew p51 s and I always remember him talking about how it sounded that 16 cylinder Rolls Royce Merlin he always said sounded like no other plane! He actually totaled one inflight training by pulling out of a dive soo late the G forces rippled the aluminum skin. His supieor Officer said he wasn’t sure if he should court Marshall him or shake his hand after that. I believe he was told to pull out of the dive long before he did. He was also reprimanded for flying under a bridge somewhere on the south east coast near his base, and also for diverting from a course and buzzing his family farm. He was a real hot shot back then.He graduated top of his class with a hit percentile of 90 I believe he said and the next closes cadet was like 60 or 70 percent. He told me he was ready to take on all Japan himself but sadly by his description that is he never saw combat. he was made an instructor himself for French cadets because he spoke fluent French. I have often wondered what his kill numbers would have been had he been able to see combat like he so badly wanted!!! I miss listening to his stories from that time so much love you Grampa!
I rode in Bob Love's P-51D in November of 1982 TWICE in one day and that was among the 5 finest days of my life. From inside the cockpit the wings look too short and the engine sounds like an old Ford flathead V-8 with straight pipes turning low rpm. I can still smell that sweet high octane exhaust. When the tailwheel touched the runway it sounded like a cement mixer tire. I run out to my roof deck any time I hear somebody's Mustang fly overhead and savor the sound but its sure unbelievably different from inside the cockpit.
There's nothing unusual about this. In the early 1970s I worked in Kent, the hottest part of the Battle of Britain. A colleague ran one of several crash site investigation clubs and his even had a small museum of 'finds' ie aircraft parts. One site was identified, not far from Maidstone and permission was obtained from the govt to excavate what was thought to be a German plane from which the pilot had successfully baled out. Turned out to be a Hurricane with human remains. In due course the Royal British Legion organised a formal service with military honours. A flypast had been promised but unfortunately had to be canceled. I lost a photograph I took of the event, to my long-lasting regret. Such discoveries, however, were by no means unusual.
You used your own words to tell that story and its much appreciated. You couldn't have done that with an old lost photograph.
Back in the 70s, I worked as the MoD point of contact for groups seeking official consent to excavate crashed aircraft. Most of the requests came from the South East of England and involved crash sites of aircraft from the Battle of Britain period. It was a pretty standard letter which made clear that recovery was to cease immediately in the event of the discovery of human remains or live ammunition. Sadly, there were a few rogue groups who either never sought permission and/or ignored the directive regarding the excavation of human remains.
Ah you know of the junkers 88 that crashed behind the kings arms at boxley then
Excellent! Bartels is one of my fave. His Red 13 109G-6/R6 W.Nr. 27 169 while in Kalamaki is my fave profiles. He was experte turn specialist and as you mentioned his victories against P-38's, led all of the Luftwaffe with most Lightnings shot down.
His actual name was Heinrich Bartels. It'd be good if his name was in the video description because I had to dig a little to find it.
@@jimmyjakes1823 apparently I was a victim of autocorrect and didn't catch it.
Heinrich "Heinz" Bartels shot down 15 Lightnings (!), 11 Mustangs, 9 Thunderbolts, 9 Spitfires and many Soviet fighters. He died in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 13" (W.Nr. 130359), but you are right, his "Red 13" in Kalamaki looks damn cool :)
The P 38 was not highly regarded by the Luftwaffe. It was a lot harder to shoot down B 17 s and Lancaster's or at least it was more dangerous.
No matter how good you are,there's always someone better. That goes for a lot of things in life. Much respect for all who fought in WW 2....on all sides.
Excellent video. This story reminds me of Gunther Lutzow, another German ace who disappeared in April 1945. He was leading a formation of Messerschmitt 262s to intercept US bombers. His ending is still unclear, since no wreckage or body was ever recovered. However, it was suggested he most likely crashed after being unable to pull out of a dive while being pursued by American fighters.
My Grandfather flew the ME262’s right at the end to defend Berlin. Spent most of his career flying Stuka’s and ME109’s the latter which he never stopped speaking about.
@@davidrandall9964 that’s pretty cool. My great grandfather fought in the regular German army while our other relatives were in the American army and navy. He was still in Germany and the rest had migrated to America some years before.
@@alanluscombe8a553 I had two uncles, one fought in the American army in North Africa & Italy, the other fought in Russia with the Wehrmacht. After the war my German uncle emigrated to Canada & then eventually to Pennsylvania. Both are long deceased but I still remember their hilarious arguments about the war whenever they visited our house.
Thats why i clocked it!
Oberleutnant Günther "Franzl" Lützow wrote airwar history, because he was the first pilot who achieved an aerial victory while flying a Messerschmitt Bf 109. On May 6th 1937 he shot down a Polikarpov I-15 Chato over Spain. Lützow was a member of Legion Condor's Jagdgruppe J/88 (2. Staffel) and his plane was a very early Bf 109 A. The whole story of Günther Lützow is absolute impressive!
A German WW2 fighter aircraft was found in the mid 1970s in Epping Forest, near London England, with the pilot's clothes still hanging there, but the body gone over time.
Myboysabitoldernow,idieforthem,ifevertheygottoutchedilovethemboth
Mydadsparasuetkitistillinhid dork shedstilleith hiswingsonthechest sometimesigointoo the work she’d andsmellitsoit remindsmeohimitabitbdusty but, it’s my dad swingdownfromuanamericanplanefightingthe batteloftheboulgde
There is a theory that downed pilots remain in their aircraft mainly due to the fact that they cannot climb out and walk away once they are dead.
No excrement Sherlock
Luftwaffe Aces on the eastern front had higher kill numbers. But for those that bailed out and were captured, they also faced far more brutal treatment at the hands of their Soviet captors.
No one likes a pilot who has strafed or bombed them.
They had higher kill numbers because the Soviet fighters were so inferior at the start of the war.
@Alan bud and the German pilots also had experience and skill on their side.
We trash talk the Russian fighters too much.
In fact, the only time in WWII the german fighter command forbid german fighters to engage combat with enemy fighters, was in Russia.
The Russian fighters started out badly, true, but they learned quickly. They ended up so skilled, both pilots and planes, that the german fighter command forbid german pilots to engage.
It was simply considered a sure loss.
This was the only time in WWII the german fighter command considered the enemy superior,- not ever against British or US fighters.
Surviving german pilots expressed the highest respect for the Russian pilots. Very, very brave, well trained, skilled pilots and superior fighter planes.
We,- in the west, just likes to tell another story.
@UClwB-sKd0Ubsa-w4tXYkVDA If you don't know your history.
In spring 43 Germany had lost WWII. Lost most of their army, most of their skilled pilots and no longer access to fuel. The war was in reality over.
D-Day was not about defeating Germany. Not at all. They had lost the war in Russia. D-Day was about preventing Stalin advancing through Germany and on. Perhaps even to Portugal?
History shows, Stalin could have been in Berlin summer 44,- without a sweat. But instead, Stalin preferred to carefully occupy every country on the path,- preparing for his dream - The Soviet Union, including every country in Europe.
Yes,- in spring 43,- Germany had lost all their experienced and skilled pilots - in Russia. The high scoring aces,- killed too. Not enough experienced pilots to train new pilot home in Germany.
From 43 and on,- german fighter pilots was mostly 18 years old teenagers with less than a week of pilot training. Luftwaffe now had greater losses due to failed start and landings, than actual combat.
From 43,- Luftwaffe was in so much in need for fuel, that the teenagers was ordered "the best way to learn flying was actual combat".
They could not even get their planes in the air!!
The allied never fought the true strength of Luftwaffe (or army),- Russia did,- and Russia won.
I live in a western country,- I'm absolutely no fan of Russia, nutcase leaders, nutcase communism - but this one is their victory. Could they have done it alone? I guess not, the allied did consume some german resources. But 70-80% of the german forces was lost in Russia. Including the "best" ones.
And yes,- the air force in Russia did start out poorly,- but they learned quickly,- and probably build the best fighter planes and had the best pilots in WWII. For Germany, the war in west was a war in parentheses. It all happened in Russia.
Most german surviving aces, having fought against them all, praise russian fighter pilot highest.
Again, the only time german fighter command forbid german fighter pilots to engage enemy fighters - was in Russia. Sure loss. It was still ok to send 3 fighter planes up against 100 P-51's. Fair chance.
ruclips.net/video/t5vM4qtQqlM/видео.html
I preferred the ME109 to the Spitfire even though the latter had the edge. It was an amazing aircraft. Then the USAF had the Mustang and the Thunderbolt both superb fighters.
Crazy, he died at only 29 after 99 kills in air combat. Most 29 year olds today have kills on XBox, between watching crap Netflix and eating poop in a box brought to their doors by Deliveroo!
So true that's about how young people are today , , I knew a Lancaster bomber pilot who was flew over 30 missions , and made it back to his hometown Christchurch , New Zealand 🇳🇿 , RIP 🙏 Murray Bruce McPherson , gone but never forgotten , a very brave new Zealander
Not a bad life. In 1940 a nineteen year old that had a solo flight a few hours flying a high-speed trainer could expect to be posted to a fighter squadron and would not be expected to live more than 1 fight. New guys would come and go so fast older pilots did not bother with names. Which would you prefer? I will choose x box and take out, over 6 hours and off you go remember the red button is for the guns good luck!
@@deborahmcgauley6095 That’s not what I’m really getting at, what I’m saying is young men have it easy now but that’s all going to change very soon. You’ll have a choice, live on your knees or die standing.
While stationed in Berlin from 1958-1963 they were dredging the Wannsee lake in Berlin when they dredged up one of our planes with the pilot still in the cockpit, they found his dog tags.
Great video and amazing story of a very talented pilot.
Also,can we thank the video game makers of the last thirty years for fighting to move forward the technology so this mans retelling could be so well done?
What an amazing story.
You said what I was thinking 😂
That's was a great story, he was definitely the knight's cross , iron cross times 5 at least. I would love to know his tactics, downing America's successful modern aircraft. Great video
This is a good video. Great visual and wonderful audio (appears to be a masterful narrator and not a computer voice) TJ3 History will be worth watching to see what comes next.
This may be inaccurate because my memory may be hazy on the subject but I seem to recall reading once about a Spitfire that was found suspended in the trees in a densely wooded area of southern Britain with the pilot still in the cockpit. The plane had apparently run out of or glided down with the pilot dead at the controls and "landed" in the treetops. The trees then grew up around it and it wasn't discovered for some time...can't recall how long but think it was decades.
Again, I may be misremembering the story but it's always stuck with me for being so strange....
Your quite right I read the story in about 1967. What amazed me was how a plane could stay hidden in woods for over 20 years without being discovered. Kent is a very cultivated county with very few densely wooded areas . I feel very sorry for the entombed pilot.Would be interesting to hear the full story.
@@russellbeaumont310 His people now know what happened to him. They can stop hoping that one day he would walk through the door.
Well done Pilot, well done indeed. Rest in Peace. You did your duty.
My dad and his brothers used to play in the forest in Germany after the war. He said they found several downed planes with bodies still inside.
Flown by the flying pig squadron no doubt
I just found your channel and really enjoy your content. Individual stories certainly bring the war to life in a unique way. On a side note, there are a few suggestions I could make to improve your narration. Reply if interested. Keep up your fantastic research!
There was a famous British pilot who disappeared in the same manner
He was coming back from a cross channel mission and was seen flying off to the north of London and just varnished..
He was found some years later still in his plane in the English country side
Can't remember his name.
That may have been Lancelot 'Lancie' Mitchell from Keith, Banffshire. My parents knew him and that he had disappeared in the Battle of Britain; He was found 20? years ago, in the cockpit of his Hurricane, buried in the mud of the Thames Estuary
It probably was shot by a friend fire shot... And the author preferred to be anonymous, probably the same ocurred to Saint Exupery...
Rest in Peace Sir. The warrior has returned home.
He was home. It was Germany. He landed just too fast
@@119jle I meant returned home to his family.
Impressive piece of history. Thanks for bringing in and paying tribute to this German Pilot who served is country. Greetings from Mexico City.
Bartels flew "Rot Dreitzehn", Hans-Joachim Marsseille flew "Gelb Vierzehn". (Red 13, and yellow 14)
True, but Bartels died in "Gelbe Dreizehn" (yellow 13)
Saburo sakai, the Japanese ace of ww2, fended off 6 newly improved and highly sophisticated American F6F Hellcats with his aging mitsubishi AGM Zero for over 20 or so mintues while blinded on one eye.
He remembered the American fighters have an attack pattern so predictable that he was able to outmaneuver them to a point his arm got so tired of performing the same maneuvers over and over again for over 20 minutes until he reached the safety cover of anti-air battery.
Just goes to show it doesn't matter how sophisticated your aircraft is, it all depends on the abilitiy of the pilot.
I agree the skill of the pilot goes a long way in keeping you alive. I don't think his skill would matter much against say an F-16. My point is, making absolute statements like you did doesn't make logical sense and tends to make you sound silly. The zero outmatched the wildcat, but the hellcat, corsair, and the mustang ultimately decimated the zero. The zero had many weakness that were thoroughly exploited by opposing pilots, regardless of their skill level, eventually even the best pilots were doomed. Sadly out of desperation, the remaining pilots were reduced to human missiles. Yes superior weapons matter more than pilot skill.
The idea that pilot quality was the deciding factor was only true if the opposing aircraft were of similar quality/ability.
Wasn't Sakai blinded by defensive gunfire from an SBD?
@@wanyelewis9667Correct but upon recovery,Sakai returned to combat and took down two F6F Hellcats and survived a 20 min duel with 15 F6Fs and yes with one eye,an injury incurred after mistaking Dauntless's or Avengers for Wildcats.That eye injury kept out of the fight for many months.
I wonder if Marga, the pilot’s wife, was still alive in 1968 when his body was recovered?
Me too
If he was 29* she may have been about 24, so born about 1920. So in 1968, she was less than 50, if not killed in the war. She COULD have been 30ish in '44. So maybe 54ish? Probably alive
*It appears he was 26, not 29, so she was likely between 21 and 25. in '44. So not even 45 yrs. So likely to have been very alive.
After playing ace combat 4 now I know where yellow 13 on that game was referring to
Wow! That was a Top-Class upload 🤙
Thankyou 😁
Rest In Peace fella you were only doing your job to protect your own country ❤
Thank you for bringign us this history it is awesome how this german pilot was found still on the cockpit its like the german pilot never abandoned his beloved plane
Likely killed in the air or too low to bail out.
Really interesting, really good story.
Your CGI is so good. Fir my sins I make model kits, and use your videos as references for weathering as they are that good.
Love your stuff.
Jase 🇬🇧
War is Tragic ... However Nice to find a great pilot.. Thankyou
A formidable German Fighter Pilot who would have been successful in any of the best planes. Thanks.
When I left Alaska in 1988, they had found a fighter trainer aircraft in the woods near Elmendorf AFB. from 1946-48, read in the paper, but I can't find anything on it now! It had said that the pilot was still in the craft! Common phrase, in Alaska is, "he gone missing!" Shrugs!
One of the women in my church was married to an RCAF bomber pilot who completed two tours of duty in WW2 over northwestern Europe. That was 60 missions! He came home and married her and then was lost in 1946 in the Northwest Territories of Canada in his bush aircraft, and has never been found. There are places in the Canadian north that no one has ever set foot on. 🤷♂🤷♂🤷♂
@@ToddSauve
You can’t have explosions and fire in space, but it does look good. Glad you have a great sponsor for your channel.
Bartels squadron also operated from occupied Greece,from Kalamaki airfield(close to Athens) and Gadouras airfield at Rodos island
I wonder if the autopsied to determine if he died from bullet wound or impact, or if they could tell, both. Good story. Glad that war is behind us.
Good question
I doubt that could be done after 24 years. I mean, an autopsy would not be definite on a body that had decomposed for that long.
@@scottrichardson8158 not completely true. A bullet thru bone would still be easily visible.
@@scottrichardson8158 Meh, they autopsy ancient remains (Vikings, Romans, Greeks) and find weapon damage evidence on bone all the time. A full Viking skeleton at the Viking Museum in York is a good example. It's highly unlikely a 50 cal round wouldn't do bone damage as it passed through a body.
Am curious about that too, he may have been wounded fatally by gunfire so no ejection. He could also have been dogfighting near the ground so once his plane was hit and compromised he didn't have time to bail out.
My grandfather flew a p-38, those planes could outrun anything in the air when they dove and had enough firepower to sink ships. I can't imagine one man taking out 13 of these fork-tailed devils
There's a cool episode of "Combat!" featuring a P-38, guest starring James Caan as a German feldwebel (sergeant).
The trouble is the P 38 sent to Europe didn’t have a supercharger like the ones in the Pacific did it. It made it under powered. This was a huge drawback read P 38 forked tailed Devil by Martin Caidin.
Once the 38 got aileron boost (hydraulics) it could turn with anything. I doubt any piston engine fighter at that time had any assist, just leverage and muscle. Not knowing but I'd bet the 262 had it.
I found this video to be rather fascinating. Thank you.
Great piece of History. Thank YOu!
A very brave man and a skilled pilot!
In the photo he is wearing his knights Cross . I know germans tended to wear lots of their awards as a normal thing was his kc found? They tend to be regarded as the German vc and are not that common.
Don't matter what plane you fly, it helps, but it's your skills as a pilot.
Amazing that the plane was not found for that long, especially as Germany was being rebuilt to get its economy going again.I can't confirm but all Germans did not wear wedding rings. In Stalag Luft 3, a German posing as an American POW asked the question " why are many of you wearing gold rings on your hands? He blew his cover real bad. BTW, you graphics and squadron markings are excellent
What has rebuilding Germany got to do with finding an aeroplane. It's not one big urban site but much of it covered in forest and other landscapes.
Wow, ... The quality of these animations is really terrific.
Very interesting story, thanks for posting!
Thank you!
P-47 had eight .50 browning machine guns, 4 in each wing. If you got hit by a P-47, your plane would be ripped to pieces.
But the P 47 pilots used to fire all of them at same time ???
@@kkteutsch6416 Yes, all 8 machine guns would fire. The pilot had no control over how many guns he could shoot. It was all or none (unless a gun jammed or ran out of ammo).
@@kkteutsch6416 Unlike with Wildcat and Hellcat pilots, Thunderbolt pilots could not switch certain guns off to conserve ammunition.
Glad he made it home, warriors deserve respect.
Ruhe in Frieden. To all who fought bravely and with respect whichever nation 🇬🇧🫡
Bartels died as an Oberfeldwebel, an E-6 equivalent. Pretty darn good for a mere enlisted pilot.
in the second WW, they were equal to E7
well 99 kills is also not bad
Why was it darn good for a mere enlisted man? Great Britain’s leading ace started as a sergeant pilot, as did others in England.
@@Sodbusterrod I was being sarcastic. Enlisted pilots flew during both world wars for several nations with excellent success. Retired enlisted TX ARNG with 14 years active and 13 drill status.
After the war, it was decided that enlisted and officer pilots could not drink within the same base club. Putting the lowly enlisted in their place and preventing awkward conditions after working hours.
@@charlesbukowski9836 Semantics. Allow me to elaborate: Luftwaffe had 8 enlisted grades and the USAAF had seven. I was attempting to relate to my fellow Americans.
E-7. MSG. STABSFELDWEBEL
E-6 TSG. OBERFELDWEBEL
E-5 SSG. FELDWEBEL
E-4 SGT. UFW
E-3 CPL. UNTEROFFIZER
E-2 PFC. ALL GEFREITER
E-1 PVT. ALL SOLDATEN
As a retired ARNG Military Policeman, I am fully aware of most nation's paygrades. Cheers
Heinz is often used as short version for Heinrich - even for official use as for newspapers. Like Bob for Robert.
I’m pretty sure it’s rob for Robert. I’m pretty sure nobody has the Bobert
Never mind their were people with the name bobert
Well still working on my German pronunciations and language things. But thanks!
@NathanFogarty
So why is William Billy ,if there are no Billiams ?
@@samkangal8428
No clue
Look up FAMOUS Robert's, and see if it's ROB, OR Bob....
Though how do you get Jack Out of John
I own his 70th Luftwaffe Victory Presentation Dagger. I've had it about 25 years or more.
Give it back to the family. You don’t deserve parts of his uniform and never earned it
@@119jle So all GI's returning from WWII should not have taken any "souvenirs"? I agree, but they did. You find the family and I can discuss it with them.
RIP......salute to all fallen soldiers.....
Interesting story. ... Is the the area where the wreckage with his body was found particularly remote? Certainly seems strange it was not discovered way earlier.
Agreed
It crashed near a castle surrounded by lake and the ground was wet. Furthermore I believe it was a private land so recovery happened only in the 1960ties. Many planes were shot in the Bonn-Köln-Bad Godesberg area on that day and before, no one really paid much attention to this since most of the plane wreckage “disappeared” into the wet ground.
Details of the recovery can be found in Werner Girbig’s book “Vermist” (Lost).
Because after all those years of war, the average German just wanted to get on with their life. Many fighter crash sites were on farmer's fields and subsequently just filled in. Many were also confused with bomb/artillery craters. In 2005 I recovered a P-47, which was over 5 meters deep with the pilot still in the cockpit. These sites are still found frequently.
@@iRichardi Agreed; from those JG26 unit histories/war diaries, it seems not uncommon for a pilot to disappear: crashing at high speed in 'marshy' ground results in the wreckage being drilled into soft ground pretty deep. Sometimes the wreckage and the pilot remains weren't found until years or even decades later.
Planes bury themselves surprisingly deep and without much evidence when nosediving into boggy or even just soft farmland.
All that kinetic energy causes the engine block to act like a bullet or battering ram and then the rest of the fuselage and even the wings follow. They usually end up about ten or even 15 feet deep, shattered and compacted like an accordion.
Good story, but needs a lot more detail as to what kind of terrain he landed in etc. It's very hard to believe that he crashed anywhere in Germany other than a very deep lake or an inaccessible mountain region and not be discovered for such a long time.
He was 6 feet deep that can be a problem if you are looking, if you aren't looking it is an unmarked grave.
I once spoke to a man who witnessed a fw190 plunged onto the ground close to him. In hengelo gld nl
After the happening and finding the nerves to get up he told me, to his surprise the aircraft buried itself instantly..
Around 1989 it was excavated ,and it was mainly found 8 meters deep and compressed..
The machineguns were thereafter exposed in a local museum here.
The pilot had bailed out.
So , if there is no close eyewitness,and it impacts in a forest then it is likely that it takes a few years before its disclosure..(if ever)
Regards
As I commented before. Germany has vast tracts of forest and other remote areas where a plane could easily disappear. After all they are still finding them in the U.K, the Netherlands and Belgium . All much smaller countries.
In the book Jg27 (Motorbuch Verlag, ca. 1975), one of his comrades described the situation as follows: "We took off. My engine wouldn't start, so I jumped into a freedom Bf109, which, as it turned out, only had an older and less powerful loader. We encountered Thunderbolts in the climb, which attacked us from above. The fight developed as we continued to climb, with my aircraft falling further and further behind. 4 Thunderbolds turned on me. Hein came to my aid and shoot down one, then we were separated and I lost sight of him."
It is the first time for me, to hear a American talking about German Flaying Asses and how good the where … can‘t believe it … thx for this video
Great information video and nice to know the pilot was finally laid to rest back in his homeland, a fitting ending.
Thanks!
He died in his homeland Just moved him
His aircraft was Red 13, not Yellow 13.
Sorry Thomas, but he died in Yellow 13, a Bf 109 G-10. But Red 13 is - of course - his best known aircraft, 'cause of the published pictures and drawings!
It is such a pleasure to watch such excellent recreations.
Great report. Unusual seeing P-51Bs for once instead of the famous P-51Ds.
This is a very interesting story
At 5:01 you say (and the cc shows) "on the 24th of 1944..." My question: 24th of which month in 1944?
I noticed that too.
He likely meant `24 April 1944`. That is the oldest recorded date of all of his P-51 victories - his first P-51 kill. Three P-51s are marked down on that date. He has no other kills on that day.
Excellent video! The images are very detailed but I think you are showing the P-51B fighters instead of the P-51D that were operational by the USAAF 8th Division by mid 1944. The models have a different canopies and were flown with their silver aluminum finish! But great video! Thanks for sharing.
Keep up the great work you are doing
I hope his wedding ring and ALL his other personal effects - including, insignia decorations and Ritterkruez - were ALL returned to his family. Respect, and R.I.P to a brave man who - like so many others - fought for his country. 👍
He fought for a wicked Hitler and his minions that didn't have the backbone to stand up for what was right. I have no respect for those who did that.
@@G53X0Y0Z0 You might as well go back in time and hate the Muslims, Vikings, Anglo-saxons - in fact EVERY culture on earth to hold true to that belief. If you want to keep holding grudges (especially for historical issues that did not directly affect you), then I guess you're a pretty lonely and miserable person on this planet, hey? 🤔
@@G53X0Y0Z0 Do you believe they had a choice ? Your opinion means bloody nothing !!!!!!!!!!!
If wanna read more about Heinrich Bartels, read the book of Werner Girbig "Vermisst...". In a chapter is described how Bartels was found.
Very cool!
I was told there is a 109 bf messasmit crash in a small village in Henley near lpswich suffolk it was only found because the owner was digging in he garden and found a bit of unnoticeable piece of metal that as not rusted after digging a 4 ft hole
Wow that's a heck of a story.
Thanks.
In the hands of an expert pilot the Me 109 was the best.
In fact it was the best, till the end of war.. It was an enemy weapon, but it was too successful to be left in the shadows …
"High maneuverability" the Mustang!? Come on.
There is unanimity among pilots who had the chance of flying the P-51 and other fighters and fighter-bombers: the P-51 was basically designed to fly leveled, far, high and fast, and its controls quite tough, apart from having a rather narrow and uncomfortable cockpit, which was also cold in high-altitude flight.
This is what expert pilots say, not me.
And that not to mention that, as I read in more than one specialized source, not only was the Mustang vulnerable even to rifle-calibre bullets, but also could only bear a discrete amount of damage (and no- it´s not just a matter of having a liquid-cooled engine as people often say, but structural robustness in general).
So, better leave aside that sentimentalist propaganda on the P-51 and try and be more realistic.
Have you been a jerk your whole life or are you new to this. This german great pilot but glad he got shot down. The german people should still be ashamed for what they did.
Another video of his talks about a lonely Lavochkin flown by Kozhedub taking down 2 P51S.
If you watch my videos, you would see that I'm likely one of the least "sentimental" or "propaganda" history creators out here. I have plenty of videos on Mustangs getting destroyed and failures of the allies. The Mustang, although certainly no Spitfire or Zero in maneuverability, was definitely more agile and better in turns than say the previous American escorts like the P-47. In addition, I seriously doubt pilots like Bob Hoover would have flown the Mustang as an aerobatic aircraft in flight shows for 30+ years if it wasn't fairly maneuverable in the air. And to say I had a cramped cockpit is just nonsense. Gunther Rall, one of the highest scoring Luftwaffe Aces, specifically commented on how roomy the cockpit was when he got to try out the P51. Have a good one.
Leopard,there is a reason the mustang was called the Cadillac of the sky.The yolk was easy and the pilots burden was light.But,it didn't take much to bring one down,being liquid cooled.Have a good one.
I knew an old boy who spoke to the fact that the “razor back” 51s were superior to the later models with the bubble canopy.
An interesting story. Thank you for posting.
Interestingly, he was able to fight and shoot down the most modern Western fighters with an old (1934) Me109. This shows that the pilot was much more important than the plane he was using.
The Me 109s of 1944 bore only a faint resemblance to the 1934 models.
Thunderbolts were the easiest airplane for the Germans in WW2 ( read the excellent book " A Higher Call " to see what the Germans and Franz Stigler said and did ), even, easier than the highly maneuverable I16.
In the book about the Luftwaffe's best fighter squadron Jg26 it was the opinion that the P38 Lightning was a sure thing. The Thunderbolt has the reputation of being a hard aircraft to down Thunderbolts have come home from missions with parts blown off full of holes and their R 2800 double wasp engines with cylinder heads blown off. There was a saying among U S pilots, " if you want glory fly a P51 if you want to go home fly a P47"
@@deborahmcgauley6095 Well, The US withdrew all Lightings from the European theater, because, the Germans shot too many of them at a very high rate. However, the Lightning was used against the Japanese, although the Zero was much better. This is because the Zero had a very underpowered engine in the second half of the war, only 1300HP. 2000HP was needed, but, the Japanese were afraid the production quantity would be affected and did not install a 2000HP engines. Another US airplane in the Pacific was the Hell Cat. The same as the Lightning, the Hell Cat was inferior to the Japanese Zeroes, but, had a 2000HP engine against the Japanese 1300HP.
In regards to P47, P47 was a very heavy aircraft and was not maneuverable. The Germans shot them like flies in Africa. Also, P47 failed to protect the bombers. 109 was powerful, agile, maneuverable, can perform excellently at 30km and was much lighter. This is why all P47's were replaced by P51 Merlin. Initially, the US installed Alison engines to P51, which, failed to perform at high altitudes. High altitudes was the main strategy of the Luftwaffe, thus, P51 Alison were totally useless and easy to shoot down. The US was unable to make a half decent engine ever. The Hell Cat engines, also, were unable to outperform 109's Mercedes ( Daimler ) engine. Roosevelt got pissed off and made the correct decision : licensed the Rolls Royce Merlin engine from the British and had Packard make the Merlin engine in the US, under the license. Once the Merlin was installed on P51, the US had something, kind of, compatible to 109. The problem with the Merlin engine was the carburetor ( as opposed to the German fuel injection ). The Merlin cannot fly inverted for a long while. However, this maneuver was never used in the war, so, the disadvantage did not make any difference. On top, the carburetor, then and now, was much more reliable, compared to fuel injection : nothing to break in a carburetor.
Most importantly, the US and Britain used 150 octane kerosene as opposed to the German 87 octane gasoline. 87 octane is very closed to diesel. Thus, the Germans fight with almost diesel against the US and British kerosene. And, still, performed better.
@@StevenStanleyBayes The 474th fighter group flew P-38s in the ETO right until the end.
@@kennethnielsen9981 Very unsuccessfully and non combat missions, I hope for their sake. Most likely, observations, pictures, low altitude reconnaissance, student training, etcetera.
Even this video says this is what this airplane has been used for in Wales.
Well done! The video closely follows the narrative, the aircraft depicted seem largely correct as to particular models in service during the timeframes mentioned. That the flight simulator is incapable of modeling the crushing compression of a steep angle dive on the fuselage between the engine and empennage on the 3D modeling of the aircraft (likely why it lay hidden in the woods for so long) was never something under the author's control.
Thanks!
Nice video could you do a video about louie zamperini for more people to know
When defending the Reich, the German pilots were reckless and engaged in risky maneuvers. Thus, under normal circumstances, P47's cannot shoot the much superior 109. This applies to many P47's versus few 109's. However, because the German pilots were reckless, almost Kamikaze style and ready to take high risks, many P47's may shoot a reckless 109, as is, probably, this case.
The German pilots were incredibly reckless, when, they had to achieve an important victory, such as 100 airplanes or a number, which, would get them the Iron Cross ( any level ) or when they compete against another German, who had similar number of airplanes.
Concerning the P47 vs German fighters please see Greg’s Airplanes and Automobiles for his excellent documentaries on the P47 and many other aircraft. As he points out it was primarily the P47 that established allied air superiority over Western Europe in 1943. He makes it clear the P51 was not there in large numbers until 1944. Such was the elimination of the Luftwaffe that my wife’s uncle flew 50 fighter-bomber missions from April 1944 through July 1944 and never saw a German aircraft.
@@Sodbusterrod Please, read the previous comments I have just made.
Again, in brief : P47 was NOT a fighter, but, a ground attack airplane. As such, P47 was excellent. However, as a fighter, P47 was not more dangerous than a fly. The US Bombers, escorted by P47, did not succeed because of P47, but, because of their B17's with tons of weapons. Thus, the B17's machine gunners destroyed most of the German airplanes and not the P47's.
P47 was very slow, underpowered, non maneuverable and, most importantly, incredibly heavy.
Please, search the Internet for Franz Stigler and Hans Joakim Marseilles. Also, the movies " Tuskegee " accurately reflected on the impotence of P47 and changed the tide with P51 Marlin. Once P51 Marlin was introduced, the percentage of downed B17's by 109's and, even, by Me262 decreased. One P51 Marlin, even, shot a Me262 and this was the first ace to, ever, shoot a jet engine in history. ( The pilot was black, from the Tuskegee's, but, this is not important. )
@@StevenStanleyBayes Please understand a Hollywood movie such as The Tuskegee Airmen has 2 purposes: first to make money and second to entertain. Any facts that get in the way of those 2 are not a concern of the producers. I too have heard that Allied bombers shot down more German fighters than the escorting fighters. That however is not the issue of the quality of the P47. Bomber kills are a function of the box formation, bomber construction, aircraft defense and flight discipline.
Again view the video P-47 Thunderbolt Conclusion Pt. 8 by Greg’s Airplanes and Automobiles. This 767 international pilot cites the flight manuals, USAAF, RAF, and NACA engineering results, pilots and more. Of course I will not attempt to repeat here his 75 min summary or the 7 other incredibly researched presentations on the P-47. I will give a few important facts that he makes indisputable. We can agree, I hope, that the German pilot of spring 1943 was far better and longer trained than a 1944 recruit. In ‘44 the Germans slashed new pilot training in a fighter to 20 hours while a P-47 pilot had 80 hours and many more in some cases before seeing combat. It was these superior airman that the USAAF faced in 1943 when they shot down over 140% of the German pilots while suffering a loss rate of about 20%. The American pilots were flying primarily the P-47. Let’s look at the USAAF England based fighter numbers given for February 1944 when Big Week was launched. Of the 835 fighters capable of bomber escort P-47 ‘s 668, P-38’s 94, and P-51’s 73. It’s clear who was doing the vast majority of the work.
He clearly establishes that a P-47 was an inferior fighter at low level. It was superior to any German fighter piston fighter except the TA-152, 69 built, at high altitude in a speed contest. It was far more rugged, much better dive rate, and had a superior roll rate. Concerning P-47 versus jet aircraft, in the Nationalist Chinese against Chinese Peoples’ air force a P-47 was credited with a kill against a MiG 15 which was a better plane than a Me-262.
To me a telling quality of the P-47 is that every top 10 P-47 pilots survived the war. I encourage you to look at Greg’s videos. He researches dozens of aircraft with attention to science and engineering that is beyond impressive.
I’ve read the Stigler-Brown book and read up on Hans-Joachim Marseille. There is not much there to enlighten us on the P-47.
@@Sodbusterrod Yes, the movies are movies, but, occasionally, they are based on truth. For example, the P47 was referred to as a grandfather's Buick, compared to P51 Merlin, which, was 100% true.
As far as Stigler is concerned, Stigler, clearly, spoke of the achievements of the Germans against the US fighters. Back then, they used P47 only and did not have P51's of any kind. The mentioned Hans Joakim Marseilles had more than 100 victories over the US ( and some British in the battle of Britain, but, mostly ) US fighters for a very tiny period. Marseilles was, nearly, equal to the German aces, who, scored a lot in The USSR at the very beginning of the war, in some cases, against biplanes. Marseilles was awarded the highest, possible, level of the Iron Cross for this and was invited as a guest, personally, by Hitler and Mussolini. Marseilles became such a " Star of Africa ", so the Germans made a black and white movie after the war. This is the only German movie I know of, in which, the Germans glorify their own WW2 soldier.
I do not know what statistics there is and where they took this from, but, the truth is P47 cannot fight against a 109, even, with pilots with a few hours :
1. P47 was heavier ( and, yes, can dive slightly better, but, only, slightly ).
2. P47 was NOT maneuverable and cannot make tight turns, something, important for bombing protection.
3. P47 was immensely slow and could not accelerate faster than a horse driven carriage.
4. P47 had a very low maximum speed, comparable to biplanes.
5. Most importantly, P47 had a very low ceiling. More like artillery than an airplane.
6. P47 was not maneuverable at all, kind of, a flying iron.
7. The engine of P47 was very powerless, more like a moped engine.
8. The only advantage of P47, P47 was very sturdy ( and heavy ). To be heavy is a disadvantage, but, to be sturdy is in cases of a ground attack airplane. The increased diving angle comes from sturdiness ( and air breaks ). P47 had good airbrakes and did not need to be very sturdy, but, was, anyway.
9. P47 was not a better diver than the Dauntless, but, can carry more.
Thus, P47 was, mainly used to destroy enemy trains in Italy and Germany. Also, once P51 Merlin came, no one wanted P47's any more, not as fighters and they were not used. Again, Germans were shooting them like flies. They were flying ducks. P47 killed a more of pilots than enemy. Thus, the US replaced them fully with P51 Merlin and never used them as fighters.
With P47, only 20% of the bombers returned. After P51 Merlin, 80% and, even, 100%.
There is a reason why everyone praises P51 Merlin and no one ( except some garage ) P47 everywhere. P47 may have been good in the 20's, but, not in the 30's and, certainly, not in the 40's. The US knew this, but, did not have anything else, because, the British needed their Spitfires and Hurricanes in Britain.
Basically, P47 was obsolete in every shape and form, except as a ground attacker, which, was not the most difficult of tasks and, usually, new pilots were, firstly, given these tasks, before, moving to P51 Merlin. Also, for students to learn how to fly.
In regards to the MiG in China, anyone can shoot any airplane, even, with a hand gun under SOME circumstances, even, now. This is how Captain Goering invented the fighter in WW1.
@@StevenStanleyBayes So you haven’t had a chance to see the engineering and flight test comparisons?
Before you do that you might want to share your research with universities, Wikipedia, WWI museums etc. that Göring even before he joining the German Luftstreitkräfte and while an infantry officer invented the fighter plane in WWI and not Garros, Fokker and others. To me that is a more important discovery.
4:58 ...'on the twentyforth of nineteen fortyfour' sounds pretty accurate ,calenderwise, but what could be of interest as well ,would be (the24th)of what specific month within that year ,thanks👍🙂
Flight stick is a control column. Interesting. Subscribed.
Such a sad story about a great man.
Guess he was on “ Eternal Patrol” ? Hope he can now R.I.P. 😔