Even if not taken as your first level class, Fighter is great. People tend to not appreciate fighting styles as much as they should. Forget the heavy armor and Con save, add the weapon proficiencies, fighting style, THREE weapon masteries, and second wind on any weapon based character and you have a winner.
Thanks for your insights. Multiclassing is so much more simple and common than in AD&D days. Given that it's so prevalent these days how many third party publishers are printing "new" classes that are just a multiclass smooshed together?
I would hazard to say almost all of them. I can’t think of pretty much any concept that can’t be done with the base 12 classes, let alone with multiclassing.
Multi-classing was very strong in AD&D 2nd edition and quite simple. You just split your exp between the classes and got both, so you were often about one level behind so the the others were 6th level you could be a 6th level wizard/6th level cleric with spell full slots from both classes.
innate sorcery is good but not so much on a dip, since it only works on sorcerer spells. but i personally think sorcerer beats a ranger by a landslide for a 1-2 lvl dip ( con prof, shield spell ), if i want armor prof / weapon masteries i would rather go either Paladin or figther ( paladin for caster classes beats figther tbh )
@shoganmajere7913 imagine you want to use a weapon, but you only ever get one attack, like a rogue. Dip of sorcerer with true strike will give you advantage on all of your weapon attacks forever. That way you don't have to use steady aim, and your bonus action is free to do any of your cunning action options.
Love your idea of taking a dip into sorcerer for rogue true strike, very clever. In most other situations I ruled it out because of innate sorcery’s limit to only working on sorcerer spells.
My first character is an abjuration wizard, but when I started figuring it out I came to a realisation that wizards have very little amount of abjuration spells inside combat, so i decided to get 3 level dip into cleric for heavy armor, bastion special rooms and usefull abjuration spells. Necromanters will suffer with the same issue - sharing spells with clerics
I don't care about 1 levels dips that much, but.... the lack of weapon mastery options for Gish subclasses makes a 1 level dip into a class that gets weapon mastery mandatory, which i have a problem with. Overall, i hate when a dip feels mandatory just to allow you fulfill the fantasy that you were invisioning when you created your character.
Hmm. Interesting point! There may be other ways to deal with it? The weapon mastery feat as one example. Also, there’s a lot of time still ahead for old subclasses to be updated to give more gish options.
I agree on this one. Weapon Mastery feat is an option, but it also means giving up something. I wanted to build a Grappler/Toppler for a level 5 one-shot, and went straight Monk with Weapon Mastery. Only once the game started did I discover how much Grappling kind of sucks, and wished I'd instead gone Fighter 1 (Unarmed), and Monk 4 (Grappler). Throw on Tavern Brawler, and I could have made almost as many attacks, had a reliable 5 ft Push, had a reliable Damage+Grapple, and I could still have made exactly as many Topple attempts every round (Warrior of the Open Hand). So, yeah, that 1-level dip wasn't technically "mandatory," but would have blown open so many options (at the cost of delayed advancement in the core class....). Anyway, not a fan of Weapon Mastery today 😉
Yeah, I hate how poorly a Straight Class Blade Pact Warlock works as a gish.... No shields. No medium armor (which are both different Feats now). No Weapon Masteries. That Paladin is basically Required. (at least the Warlock Capstone sucks... 🤷)
I enjoy these kinds of dips and seeing how people work them. I also love seeing people optimize as I see it as a way to engage further with the system. I find that most people who don't like optimization also don't know the system as much as those who do. That being said here's my takes on the dips: #5: Personally, I think that medium armor proficiency is better than heavy armor. As the jump from no armor to medium is fair greater than medium to heavy. As well as it takes dexterity which casters already want for initiative. Not to mention that low level spells like Healing Word and Bless are good to have. I would say even better than Good Berry and Entangle. #4: I do agree that Paladin is a good class as a dip. But, its not as good as it used to be. Weapon Masteries make it nice to have if your a weapon using caster. Yet, those types of builds work best as having paladin or having multi-attack. I would take this with a Valor Bard, so that you are a bit better with your weapon. #3: I don't see much from Ranger that you can't get from other classes. Sure, you get Hunter's Mark. But, Hunter's Mark is a weak spell. I would only recommend this to a build where you'll be making a lots of attacks and not concentrating on anything. So basically just Fighter and Monk. There's potential, but Ranger just is not a good class in 2024 edition. #2: Warlock is always a good dip. Pact Slots allow for easier short rest resources, Pact of the Blade makes melee charisma builds easier to make, and grants access to the best cantrip in Eldritch Blast. Warlock is eating good this edition. But, I do know that they lost the ability to have medium armor at level one so you'll need to get it from somewhere else. Personally, I'm looking forward to a future game where I get to try a Valor bard with a Bladelock dip. Also note, You can still get Boom Blade and Green Flame Blade with DM approval, those classes still have access to legacy expansion spells. #1: Personally, I think that Wizard and Sorcerer still reign supreme in the point of having the best single level dip. Sure, Shield is easier to get than ever. But, having the full sweep of the defensive trinity, Shield, Absorb Elements, and (possibly) Silvery Barbs, just makes any spell caster that dips these two classes far better at defending themselves from damage than anything else. Sure, having Unarmored Defense from Monk is nice, but you'd need a cumulative +7 to beat medium armor and +9 to beat Medium armor plus shield. With the Martial Arts, sure its good but you need to already be built for melee for the extra attack to be useful. Which, for most builds I don't think it will be, Melee is scary and how I play, I avoid it as much as possible. Monk certainly is not a bad dip, but in my opinion noting can beat the Defensive Trinity.
Monk for me isn't even in the top 5 add to what @eldritchdefender metioned ( that free unarmed strike doesn't give you anything if you want to use your bonus action for anything e.g. smithing, PAM, twf, LoH, Paladin vows just to name a few ) my list would go something around : #1 sorcerer / Wizard with Sorcerer having a slight advantage because of con prof. saves #2 Warlock but not far behind #1 #3 Paladin ( weapon mastery, armor prof, shield, LoH, searing smite beats divine smite on anything not resistant / immune to fire ) #4 Figther ( instead of spell casting of the paladin action surge if going for 2 lvls and figthing style with just 1 lvl) #5 Cleric ( for the armor prof if you don't want to take the dip at 1st lvl and want heavy armor it beats figther imo )
@@shoganmajere7913 Monk really depend on why you are "dipping". Monk is really good if you have high wisdom and don't want to wear armor for role-playing reasons. If it's just for power where are probably stronger options.
In defense of Ranger, Hunter’s mark early on is a decent spell. In fact Ranger’s early levels/ tier 1 have some really good damage numbers. Free castings of HM for early lvls when spell slots are limited is extremely handy. Plus not extremely efficient but they do have a ranged smite in hail of thorns.
@@guardiantree8879 Hunter's Mark is an alright spell at first when you get it. But, it quickly gets out classed. It is really only notable in tier one. But, dips that aren't for armor tend to come later and the ranger just doesn't give much that paladin or other classes do.
I'm good with everything but the Monk. I don't disagree with what it brings to the table but I feel that there are better options for anyone to would want to take advantage of martial arts or unarmored defense. Wizard will take Druid or Cleric until the Artificer is released in the next book (they should have released it in the PHB but Whatever,) Druid gives them the Armor profiency without spell progression loss plus Druid has cure Wounds, and Scheleigh so BA make my weapon d8,d10,d12,2d6 by tier. Sorcerers, CHA caster= add Warlock for better. I am very much into a Wizard with healing so that is one of the musts for a Wizard MC. Now with bastions that means that I am making studded leather Barding for my Owl to enspell with Cure Wounds and If I play Warlock my Imp will be sporting wands and even a dagger of catapult. If I get time to make stuff myself then I can do better but these arvAL legal right now.
Would loved to have heard about Ability requirements as a cost on a couple of these, especially those with two primary skills. Needing that 13 in what would otherwise be a dump stat does limit several of these pretty severely.
For a Sorcerer, besides going 2 level dip for Warlock, another great combo is actually Cleric. 1 level dip gets you Heavy Armor Proficiency (Protector option), and you don't lose Full Caster spell progression slots like you do with the Halfcaster Warlock. You also get a lot of useful low level spells Sorcerers don't get like Bless, Cure Wounds, Spare the Dying, or you can lessen your Sorcerer "spells known load" by taking solid spells like Protection from G/E. 😊
If you plan to max out your wisdom, going both atleast 1 level into Cleric and Druid can grant you a +10 to Arcana Checks, which isn't amazing but really funny.
Warlocks are not half casters tho. They get 9th level spell at level 17 just like a cleric or wizard does, and you can cast sorcerers spells with your Pact slots and vice versa. Warlock is still a full caster just like it always was when it comes to multiclassing
is Spare the Dying still a reach of Touch in 2024, making it the same as using bandages or a potion on your dying friend? useful? it was always a waste of a spell slot, doing nothing that you couldn't do without the spell. You want Revivify, not Spare the Dying.
@captaindred342 The point is if you dip a lv or two, you aren't stacking Warlock spell slots on top of Sorcerer slots like you do with Cleric. What a Halfcaster class does is it adds a separate pool of spell slots at the lowest level going up.
Still the best two (2) level dip for Sorcerers, the Warlock. All those free yummy Innvocations. Yes, please! I'll take Agonizing Blast, Lessons of the First Ones (for any useful background feats missed - Toughness/Alert/Skilled) and/or Eldritch Mind for a built in "poor man's" Warcaster feat. Quicken Metamagic + Agonizing Eldritch Blast always goes Brrrrrrrr! 😊
I’m shocked fighter & Sorcerer didn’t make the list for their con proficiency bonus. That’s a massive boon for casters. Plus fighter gives weapon masteries & armor. Sorcerer has a few useful spells to choose as well.
It’s true. I guess I must admit to kind of equating dip in this case as something you take after your main class has already been set, as opposed to taking the dip level first to set your saving throws. My bad there! Thanks for pointing it out
I would include Fighter on this list. Level one gaining access to both weapon masteries and a fighting style is just really powerful. If you want to dual wield as any character, two weapon fighting and the nick weapon mastery gives you a full damage extra attack before level 5. Second wind is still good to heal in a pinch as well. If you don't want to be dexterity based, then pick up a greatsword and the defense fighting style to mitigate the absence of a shield, and the Graze property so you are always guaranteed a bit of damage. Even for purely defensive reasons if you don't plan on making weapon attacks as a spellcaster, the benefits of a fighter dip shouldn't be underestimated.
I think Ranger dip makes dipping Druid one lvl useless as with Ranger you also get weapon masteries plus the benefits Druid gives. Now 2 levels Druid to get wildshape & find familiar is a decent option.
I disagree on the ranger. Hunter's mark is just not worth it when paladin does much the same with divine favor at no concentration. I wish ranger was better than it actually is because it's a sad sight when I can look at what's supposed to be good about a ranger just gets replaced/replicated but better with a different class. I don't fault you for your reasoning but it feels like hazbro just made rangers WORSE in the 2024 rules
So far I have been pleasantly impressed with the rangers at my 2024 rules tables. I still miss the cool flavorful abilities, but they kinda kick backside, and almost always have options, while the paladins have struggled more with resource management. Admittedly, we are low level at these tables still. Time will tell!
@@DM-Timothy The math I've seen has Rangers falling way behind above level 11. I recently settled on some Homebrew fixes to Hunter's Mark (starting at 9th level) that increase the damage and begin to remove some of the barriers that make it not worth using at high level (particularly since their level 17 and 20 features are tied to it).
You really don't need to plan on what to do with your character once they reach level 20. Most characters don't get to level 20 anyway and if they do it's probably near the end of the champaign anyway. I'm surprised that Fighter wasn't on the list, you gain Constitution Saving Throw Proficiency, Heavy Armor and shield, Martial weapons, a Fighting Style, Second Wind and Weapon Mastery with 3 weapons
I’m an oddity, I almost always run games to level 20. And you’re right fighter is a good contender, though for whatever reason I was thinking of dip classes from a standpoint of what to dip into after creation instead of as your first level.
@@DM-Timothy Fighter not as quite good later to dip later on, but still bad, you just you get medium Armor instead of Heavy and you don't get the Saving Throw, but you still get everything else. Kudos for taking the campaigns to 20 level. I still think that the main drawback you get when dipping is the delayed progression of your main class. Fun video. Cheers! 😀
Like u said dipping is stronger than ever, and further 16 / 4 builds, I'll add 12/4/4 builds are going to be huge, cause some subclass lvl 3 are insane. 1 FIghter dip is basically only if you want heavy armor AND con save for casting reason, which makes no sense given druid and cleric got it. fighting style isnt a big deal, 2 level is super potent like tactical mind and action surge are huge. So unless you want an heavy armored mage which isnt really attractive, you still got cleric and druid as mentionned. Champion 3 dip is huge tho. Except the subclasss options (champion/battlemaster) a lot of the figher dip option can be found elsewhere in a better way. I'll always favor artificer or even Warlock eldritch mind dip for con prof. Sorcerer can even be an option with further dip such as wild sorcery, at the cost of wisdom usually. In fact, warlock can actually be huge. 2 level allow A LOT for a wizard. which is kinda SAD. Sorcerous burst is kinda insane wether by mylticlassing sorcerer and get the advantage on all attack (btw truestrike advantage feels nasty on lvl 1/2) or simply going warlock tome. SB with agonizing or the push is huge. WL dip also allow fun combination where you usually want to avoid going 2 level 5 on martials because of extra attack not stacking, well now you can go warlock get pact of the blade level it up to get life drinker/hex, but get ur extra attack somewhere else (not from thirsting blade). So you're not loosing that extra invoc, niche but nice. ALSO, you get eldritch smite. Which is very solid and a legit upgrate for ranger (this is kinda my route for ranger tier 3 now) Ranger gloomstalker dip is huge if you goes for advantage and crit phishing on a dex/wis character ... such as monk. You also got expertise which is very nice, cause rogue sux balls now. 2 level of monk basically grants u free bonus disengage/or shove choice, for me it is the new rogue dip. Like you I find the monk super duper just because dex and wis are OP stats, I don't like armor, and I enjoy using any simple martial weapon with dex. It allows a lot of RP and character building which is Rogue used to do. But now unless u want to play a crossbow bolter turret you dont go rogue. I'll never like paladin cause fuck up that licking boot class. lvl 1 and 2 are however super duper mechanically stronk. (thx they nerfed it) Until kensei is out, I'm going to test a shadow monk 12, champion 4, gloomstalker 4. Unlimited Blink tp, BA disengage, stats overload, h ighest initiative of the game, crit phishing for the mini free smite, expertise, action surge darkness on demand that break action economy, and hunter mark + darkness + surge to demolish boss. Deflect attack isnt bad either. This is basically the better version of an assassin. Yeah you're loosing the insane monk capstone, but in the end I think I got something solid. But I might enjoy also having fun with a ranger / warlock smiting too. Dexlock were never bad in the first place. And having smite on a ranger is juicy.
Not sure I would name Monk #1. Seems to be a #5 because of the niche it fills. I’ve seen the arguments for Ranger though and agree. Poor Rangers, only good for a single level dip. 😢
My vote would have been Fighter for best dip. Particularly since you started the video talking about going a full 4 level dip, there's nothing that quite compares to Action Surge for a two level dip.
Fighter was definitely a contender and I’ll agree with you on Action surge. The options just got so wild at higher dip levels I wanted to start with simple 1 level dips. :)
for a one dip fighter isnt that great anymore. For a 2 dip, I'll count monk equally, there is A LOT packed in. for 3 dip the fighter subclass are for now just better.
@MrNxou yeah... The reason to dip is to get armor and Weapon Masteries. With Fighter you also get 1d10 healing as a Bonus Action healing and a Fighting Style. Paladins can prepare Smite at first level now, and don't slow down spell slot progression... 🤔 Does sound better for a potential gish, particularly if you're gonna be a Charisma caster going forward.
@@guamae People who wants the narrative option a rogue used to. Except u trade expertise versus no armor and dexy simple martial weapon as narrative/mechanics for ur character concept. And u get bonus action dash/disengage for free. Rogue is so bad in melee, now unless you want to play a turret, its unattractive
It’s an interesting point. What if you flip this though, the patron and deity are allowing you to take on 100% of the commitment, and only have to give you 5% of the power they could otherwise offer…
Booming/Greenflame Blade are very much still a part of the "Meta". They were not really lost, at least at most online tables. I'm looking at my Sorlock and Bladesinger Monk's DnD Beyond Character sheets and when I click on those spells they are not listed as "Legacy". They are there as default options. I'm playing a level 20 One Shot with my Sorlock today and Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade aren't banned for instance. I play 4 tables 2024 rules and none are banned. I have no "Legacy Spells" Just FYI.
Given that most campaigns peter out by level 10, a few may reach 15, but very few actually reach 20 and even fewer spend time playing after reaching 20...so why is there such a big deal placed on the class "capstone"? WooHoo you are level 20 and got your super nifty capstone...and the campaign is over... Oh, I missed that we are talking 2024 rules,...nope still doesn't impress me.
Part of it is human nature to think all the way to a characters potential end goal, and part of it is that I personally run my games to level 20 on a regular basis. Totally fair if it’s not your thing, though!
It is so MAD if you go beyond Cleric, Druid, Ranger, or Rogue. Sure I want to beef up my Wizard's AC but having to invest in bother Dex and Wis to reach it is very limiting. In summary, the Unarmored Defense is a limited draw for a one level dip.
I'm not a DM but I've seen plenty of Paladin/Hexblades and Bard/Hexblades and whenever I asked them about their Patron they just looked back at me with blank stares. None of them ever even bothered to include one in their backstory. They just wanted those juicy features.
@ it’s been in the game for ages. We used to call it being a Munchkin but that’s sort of mean. I think for example a fighter who later in the campaign finds a family secret that unlocks the magic potential hidden in his blood to multiclass his not sorcerer or something like that is totally fine but to do it just to cheese the game is a bummer for me.
Just to point out, people can play perfectly munchkin even without multiclassing, and vice versa - they can multiclass without necessarily being munchkin. One of the big reasons to multiclass is if you’re trying to achieve a character concept that’s not really represented by any of the single classes. For example a more mage-y kind of gish than you might get from EK or warlock or Valor Bard. Does trying to achieve a certain fantasy count as “narrative reason” or does it have to be “the character had an in game mystical experience…” I appreciate that munchkining can set a tone for the game that breaks immersion and isn’t fun for other players or the DM, but I think player intent is really the root of that, multiclassing may be a symptom but maybe not.
@ …..okay? A mage gish already exists…. Eldrich knight and blade singer and probably several others, so muchkin excuses are weak And as I already said I don’t care if multi class for a narrative reason. If it’s strictly for your muchkin “build” I wouldn’t allow it at my table
Nothing on my end. I don’t often delete comments (haven’t yet, actually) but sometimes RUclips moderates them themselves, and I rarely know precisely why. Sorry if that’s happening to your comment!
Great list but also: Fighter. Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery, Heavy Armor, Constitution Proficiency. At level 2: Action Surge
I definitely went back and forth on fighter. Thanks for your comment!
Even if not taken as your first level class, Fighter is great. People tend to not appreciate fighting styles as much as they should. Forget the heavy armor and Con save, add the weapon proficiencies, fighting style, THREE weapon masteries, and second wind on any weapon based character and you have a winner.
Fighter is definitely a contender. I was always a little bummed by Second Wind’s reliance on further fighter levels, but it’s still a nice perk.
Fun note for the Cleric and druid dip.
Both can buff the arcana skill with wisdom.
So if for some reason you are after that. +int + 2x wis is fun.
Thanks for your insights. Multiclassing is so much more simple and common than in AD&D days. Given that it's so prevalent these days how many third party publishers are printing "new" classes that are just a multiclass smooshed together?
I would hazard to say almost all of them. I can’t think of pretty much any concept that can’t be done with the base 12 classes, let alone with multiclassing.
Multi-classing was very strong in AD&D 2nd edition and quite simple. You just split your exp between the classes and got both, so you were often about one level behind so the the others were 6th level you could be a 6th level wizard/6th level cleric with spell full slots from both classes.
Really surprised sorcerer didn't make the list. Innate sorcerery is really good!
innate sorcery is good but not so much on a dip, since it only works on sorcerer spells.
but i personally think sorcerer beats a ranger by a landslide for a 1-2 lvl dip ( con prof, shield spell ), if i want armor prof / weapon masteries i would rather go either Paladin or figther ( paladin for caster classes beats figther tbh )
@shoganmajere7913 imagine you want to use a weapon, but you only ever get one attack, like a rogue. Dip of sorcerer with true strike will give you advantage on all of your weapon attacks forever. That way you don't have to use steady aim, and your bonus action is free to do any of your cunning action options.
Love your idea of taking a dip into sorcerer for rogue true strike, very clever. In most other situations I ruled it out because of innate sorcery’s limit to only working on sorcerer spells.
glad someone else saw the combo with rogue truestrike ^^
@@brynwtsn Not "forever", 2 minutes a day.
Or you can Hide,
or use Steady Aim,
and not slow down your class progression.
This is the stuff I love. Good job!
I’m glad! If there’s more of this sort of thing you’d like to see, lemme know what and I’ll see what I can do?
My first character is an abjuration wizard, but when I started figuring it out I came to a realisation that wizards have very little amount of abjuration spells inside combat, so i decided to get 3 level dip into cleric for heavy armor, bastion special rooms and usefull abjuration spells. Necromanters will suffer with the same issue - sharing spells with clerics
I don't care about 1 levels dips that much, but.... the lack of weapon mastery options for Gish subclasses makes a 1 level dip into a class that gets weapon mastery mandatory, which i have a problem with. Overall, i hate when a dip feels mandatory just to allow you fulfill the fantasy that you were invisioning when you created your character.
Hmm. Interesting point! There may be other ways to deal with it? The weapon mastery feat as one example. Also, there’s a lot of time still ahead for old subclasses to be updated to give more gish options.
I agree on this one. Weapon Mastery feat is an option, but it also means giving up something. I wanted to build a Grappler/Toppler for a level 5 one-shot, and went straight Monk with Weapon Mastery. Only once the game started did I discover how much Grappling kind of sucks, and wished I'd instead gone Fighter 1 (Unarmed), and Monk 4 (Grappler). Throw on Tavern Brawler, and I could have made almost as many attacks, had a reliable 5 ft Push, had a reliable Damage+Grapple, and I could still have made exactly as many Topple attempts every round (Warrior of the Open Hand).
So, yeah, that 1-level dip wasn't technically "mandatory," but would have blown open so many options (at the cost of delayed advancement in the core class....).
Anyway, not a fan of Weapon Mastery today 😉
Yeah, I hate how poorly a Straight Class Blade Pact Warlock works as a gish....
No shields.
No medium armor (which are both different Feats now).
No Weapon Masteries.
That Paladin is basically Required.
(at least the Warlock Capstone sucks... 🤷)
I enjoy these kinds of dips and seeing how people work them. I also love seeing people optimize as I see it as a way to engage further with the system. I find that most people who don't like optimization also don't know the system as much as those who do.
That being said here's my takes on the dips:
#5: Personally, I think that medium armor proficiency is better than heavy armor. As the jump from no armor to medium is fair greater than medium to heavy. As well as it takes dexterity which casters already want for initiative. Not to mention that low level spells like Healing Word and Bless are good to have. I would say even better than Good Berry and Entangle.
#4: I do agree that Paladin is a good class as a dip. But, its not as good as it used to be. Weapon Masteries make it nice to have if your a weapon using caster. Yet, those types of builds work best as having paladin or having multi-attack. I would take this with a Valor Bard, so that you are a bit better with your weapon.
#3: I don't see much from Ranger that you can't get from other classes. Sure, you get Hunter's Mark. But, Hunter's Mark is a weak spell. I would only recommend this to a build where you'll be making a lots of attacks and not concentrating on anything. So basically just Fighter and Monk. There's potential, but Ranger just is not a good class in 2024 edition.
#2: Warlock is always a good dip. Pact Slots allow for easier short rest resources, Pact of the Blade makes melee charisma builds easier to make, and grants access to the best cantrip in Eldritch Blast. Warlock is eating good this edition. But, I do know that they lost the ability to have medium armor at level one so you'll need to get it from somewhere else. Personally, I'm looking forward to a future game where I get to try a Valor bard with a Bladelock dip. Also note, You can still get Boom Blade and Green Flame Blade with DM approval, those classes still have access to legacy expansion spells.
#1: Personally, I think that Wizard and Sorcerer still reign supreme in the point of having the best single level dip. Sure, Shield is easier to get than ever. But, having the full sweep of the defensive trinity, Shield, Absorb Elements, and (possibly) Silvery Barbs, just makes any spell caster that dips these two classes far better at defending themselves from damage than anything else. Sure, having Unarmored Defense from Monk is nice, but you'd need a cumulative +7 to beat medium armor and +9 to beat Medium armor plus shield. With the Martial Arts, sure its good but you need to already be built for melee for the extra attack to be useful. Which, for most builds I don't think it will be, Melee is scary and how I play, I avoid it as much as possible. Monk certainly is not a bad dip, but in my opinion noting can beat the Defensive Trinity.
I appreciate the detailed thoughts! Thank you!
Monk for me isn't even in the top 5
add to what @eldritchdefender metioned ( that free unarmed strike doesn't give you anything if you want to use your bonus action for anything e.g. smithing, PAM, twf, LoH, Paladin vows just to name a few )
my list would go something around :
#1 sorcerer / Wizard with Sorcerer having a slight advantage because of con prof. saves
#2 Warlock but not far behind #1
#3 Paladin ( weapon mastery, armor prof, shield, LoH, searing smite beats divine smite on anything not resistant / immune to fire )
#4 Figther ( instead of spell casting of the paladin action surge if going for 2 lvls and figthing style with just 1 lvl)
#5 Cleric ( for the armor prof if you don't want to take the dip at 1st lvl and want heavy armor it beats figther imo )
@@shoganmajere7913 Monk really depend on why you are "dipping". Monk is really good if you have high wisdom and don't want to wear armor for role-playing reasons. If it's just for power where are probably stronger options.
In defense of Ranger, Hunter’s mark early on is a decent spell. In fact Ranger’s early levels/ tier 1 have some really good damage numbers.
Free castings of HM for early lvls when spell slots are limited is extremely handy. Plus not extremely efficient but they do have a ranged smite in hail of thorns.
@@guardiantree8879 Hunter's Mark is an alright spell at first when you get it. But, it quickly gets out classed. It is really only notable in tier one. But, dips that aren't for armor tend to come later and the ranger just doesn't give much that paladin or other classes do.
I'm good with everything but the Monk. I don't disagree with what it brings to the table but I feel that there are better options for anyone to would want to take advantage of martial arts or unarmored defense.
Wizard will take Druid or Cleric until the Artificer is released in the next book (they should have released it in the PHB but Whatever,)
Druid gives them the Armor profiency without spell progression loss plus Druid has cure Wounds, and Scheleigh so BA make my weapon d8,d10,d12,2d6 by tier.
Sorcerers, CHA caster= add Warlock for better.
I am very much into a Wizard with healing so that is one of the musts for a Wizard MC.
Now with bastions that means that I am making studded leather Barding for my Owl to enspell with Cure Wounds and If I play Warlock my Imp will be sporting wands and even a dagger of catapult. If I get time to make stuff myself then I can do better but these arvAL legal right now.
Totally fair. Also, fun ideas for magic item combos on the familiars. :)
Would loved to have heard about Ability requirements as a cost on a couple of these, especially those with two primary skills. Needing that 13 in what would otherwise be a dump stat does limit several of these pretty severely.
Fair point! A thirteen is usually pretty easy to map out to a non-prime stat in my experience, but it’s not NO cost, for sure.
For a Sorcerer, besides going 2 level dip for Warlock, another great combo is actually Cleric.
1 level dip gets you Heavy Armor Proficiency (Protector option), and you don't lose Full Caster spell progression slots like you do with the Halfcaster Warlock.
You also get a lot of useful low level spells Sorcerers don't get like Bless, Cure Wounds, Spare the Dying, or you can lessen your Sorcerer "spells known load" by taking solid spells like Protection from G/E. 😊
If you plan to max out your wisdom, going both atleast 1 level into Cleric and Druid can grant you a +10 to Arcana Checks, which isn't amazing but really funny.
Multiclassing definitely gives amazing amounts of spells known, that’s worth keeping in mind for sure, thanks!
Warlocks are not half casters tho. They get 9th level spell at level 17 just like a cleric or wizard does, and you can cast sorcerers spells with your Pact slots and vice versa.
Warlock is still a full caster just like it always was when it comes to multiclassing
is Spare the Dying still a reach of Touch in 2024, making it the same as using bandages or a potion on your dying friend?
useful? it was always a waste of a spell slot, doing nothing that you couldn't do without the spell.
You want Revivify, not Spare the Dying.
@captaindred342 The point is if you dip a lv or two, you aren't stacking Warlock spell slots on top of Sorcerer slots like you do with Cleric. What a Halfcaster class does is it adds a separate pool of spell slots at the lowest level going up.
Still the best two (2) level dip for Sorcerers, the Warlock.
All those free yummy Innvocations. Yes, please! I'll take Agonizing Blast, Lessons of the First Ones (for any useful background feats missed - Toughness/Alert/Skilled) and/or Eldritch Mind for a built in "poor man's" Warcaster feat.
Quicken Metamagic + Agonizing Eldritch Blast always goes Brrrrrrrr! 😊
I’m shocked fighter & Sorcerer didn’t make the list for their con proficiency bonus. That’s a massive boon for casters.
Plus fighter gives weapon masteries & armor. Sorcerer has a few useful spells to choose as well.
It’s true. I guess I must admit to kind of equating dip in this case as something you take after your main class has already been set, as opposed to taking the dip level first to set your saving throws. My bad there! Thanks for pointing it out
What this guy said, con proficiency is so good for casters
I would include Fighter on this list. Level one gaining access to both weapon masteries and a fighting style is just really powerful. If you want to dual wield as any character, two weapon fighting and the nick weapon mastery gives you a full damage extra attack before level 5. Second wind is still good to heal in a pinch as well. If you don't want to be dexterity based, then pick up a greatsword and the defense fighting style to mitigate the absence of a shield, and the Graze property so you are always guaranteed a bit of damage. Even for purely defensive reasons if you don't plan on making weapon attacks as a spellcaster, the benefits of a fighter dip shouldn't be underestimated.
Fighter was definitely a contender. They’re a great dip, even if I didn’t think top 5 myself.
I think Ranger dip makes dipping Druid one lvl useless as with Ranger you also get weapon masteries plus the benefits Druid gives.
Now 2 levels Druid to get wildshape & find familiar is a decent option.
You could pick Magician from druid I guess? If you really want higher Arcana and Nature checks.
That’s a fair point! There might be a few spells on Druid list that ranger don’t get, but by and large I’d agree ranger is the superior option.
I disagree on the ranger. Hunter's mark is just not worth it when paladin does much the same with divine favor at no concentration. I wish ranger was better than it actually is because it's a sad sight when I can look at what's supposed to be good about a ranger just gets replaced/replicated but better with a different class. I don't fault you for your reasoning but it feels like hazbro just made rangers WORSE in the 2024 rules
So far I have been pleasantly impressed with the rangers at my 2024 rules tables. I still miss the cool flavorful abilities, but they kinda kick backside, and almost always have options, while the paladins have struggled more with resource management. Admittedly, we are low level at these tables still. Time will tell!
@@DM-Timothy The math I've seen has Rangers falling way behind above level 11.
I recently settled on some Homebrew fixes to Hunter's Mark (starting at 9th level) that increase the damage and begin to remove some of the barriers that make it not worth using at high level (particularly since their level 17 and 20 features are tied to it).
You really don't need to plan on what to do with your character once they reach level 20. Most characters don't get to level 20 anyway and if they do it's probably near the end of the champaign anyway.
I'm surprised that Fighter wasn't on the list, you gain Constitution Saving Throw Proficiency, Heavy Armor and shield, Martial weapons, a Fighting Style, Second Wind and Weapon Mastery with 3 weapons
I’m an oddity, I almost always run games to level 20. And you’re right fighter is a good contender, though for whatever reason I was thinking of dip classes from a standpoint of what to dip into after creation instead of as your first level.
@@DM-Timothy Fighter not as quite good later to dip later on, but still bad, you just you get medium Armor instead of Heavy and you don't get the Saving Throw, but you still get everything else.
Kudos for taking the campaigns to 20 level. I still think that the main drawback you get when dipping is the delayed progression of your main class.
Fun video. Cheers! 😀
Like u said dipping is stronger than ever, and further 16 / 4 builds, I'll add 12/4/4 builds are going to be huge, cause some subclass lvl 3 are insane.
1 FIghter dip is basically only if you want heavy armor AND con save for casting reason, which makes no sense given druid and cleric got it. fighting style isnt a big deal, 2 level is super potent like tactical mind and action surge are huge. So unless you want an heavy armored mage which isnt really attractive, you still got cleric and druid as mentionned. Champion 3 dip is huge tho. Except the subclasss options (champion/battlemaster) a lot of the figher dip option can be found elsewhere in a better way.
I'll always favor artificer or even Warlock eldritch mind dip for con prof. Sorcerer can even be an option with further dip such as wild sorcery, at the cost of wisdom usually.
In fact, warlock can actually be huge. 2 level allow A LOT for a wizard. which is kinda SAD.
Sorcerous burst is kinda insane wether by mylticlassing sorcerer and get the advantage on all attack (btw truestrike advantage feels nasty on lvl 1/2) or simply going warlock tome. SB with agonizing or the push is huge.
WL dip also allow fun combination where you usually want to avoid going 2 level 5 on martials because of extra attack not stacking, well now you can go warlock get pact of the blade level it up to get life drinker/hex, but get ur extra attack somewhere else (not from thirsting blade). So you're not loosing that extra invoc, niche but nice. ALSO, you get eldritch smite. Which is very solid and a legit upgrate for ranger (this is kinda my route for ranger tier 3 now)
Ranger gloomstalker dip is huge if you goes for advantage and crit phishing on a dex/wis character ... such as monk. You also got expertise which is very nice, cause rogue sux balls now.
2 level of monk basically grants u free bonus disengage/or shove choice, for me it is the new rogue dip. Like you I find the monk super duper just because dex and wis are OP stats, I don't like armor, and I enjoy using any simple martial weapon with dex. It allows a lot of RP and character building which is Rogue used to do. But now unless u want to play a crossbow bolter turret you dont go rogue.
I'll never like paladin cause fuck up that licking boot class. lvl 1 and 2 are however super duper mechanically stronk. (thx they nerfed it)
Until kensei is out, I'm going to test a shadow monk 12, champion 4, gloomstalker 4.
Unlimited Blink tp, BA disengage, stats overload, h ighest initiative of the game, crit phishing for the mini free smite, expertise, action surge darkness on demand that break action economy, and hunter mark + darkness + surge to demolish boss. Deflect attack isnt bad either. This is basically the better version of an assassin. Yeah you're loosing the insane monk capstone, but in the end I think I got something solid.
But I might enjoy also having fun with a ranger / warlock smiting too. Dexlock were never bad in the first place. And having smite on a ranger is juicy.
Not sure I would name Monk #1. Seems to be a #5 because of the niche it fills. I’ve seen the arguments for Ranger though and agree. Poor Rangers, only good for a single level dip. 😢
Love the cat videos
I’m glad! :)
My vote would have been Fighter for best dip. Particularly since you started the video talking about going a full 4 level dip, there's nothing that quite compares to Action Surge for a two level dip.
Fighter was definitely a contender and I’ll agree with you on Action surge. The options just got so wild at higher dip levels I wanted to start with simple 1 level dips. :)
for a one dip fighter isnt that great anymore. For a 2 dip, I'll count monk equally, there is A LOT packed in. for 3 dip the fighter subclass are for now just better.
@MrNxou yeah... The reason to dip is to get armor and Weapon Masteries. With Fighter you also get 1d10 healing as a Bonus Action healing and a Fighting Style.
Paladins can prepare Smite at first level now, and don't slow down spell slot progression... 🤔
Does sound better for a potential gish, particularly if you're gonna be a Charisma caster going forward.
@MrNxou I'm not sure who wants to dip monk though... Except for Dance Bards, or if you need your Ranger to Grapple....
@@guamae People who wants the narrative option a rogue used to. Except u trade expertise versus no armor and dexy simple martial weapon as narrative/mechanics for ur character concept. And u get bonus action dash/disengage for free. Rogue is so bad in melee, now unless you want to play a turret, its unattractive
Fighter not being here is shocking. Monk being here is borderline baffling. I’m more receptive to Ranger
I was definitely torn on fighter.
I hate the "1 level dip".
What self-respecting Patron or Diety would allow a character to "dip" for all the goodies without any real commitment.
It’s an interesting point. What if you flip this though, the patron and deity are allowing you to take on 100% of the commitment, and only have to give you 5% of the power they could otherwise offer…
Booming/Greenflame Blade are very much still a part of the "Meta". They were not really lost, at least at most online tables.
I'm looking at my Sorlock and Bladesinger Monk's DnD Beyond Character sheets and when I click on those spells they are not listed as "Legacy". They are there as default options.
I'm playing a level 20 One Shot with my Sorlock today and Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade aren't banned for instance. I play 4 tables 2024 rules and none are banned. I have no "Legacy Spells" Just FYI.
Totally true, as long as you allow “expanded content” they are base.
Given that most campaigns peter out by level 10, a few may reach 15, but very few actually reach 20 and even fewer spend time playing after reaching 20...so why is there such a big deal placed on the class "capstone"? WooHoo you are level 20 and got your super nifty capstone...and the campaign is over... Oh, I missed that we are talking 2024 rules,...nope still doesn't impress me.
Part of it is human nature to think all the way to a characters potential end goal, and part of it is that I personally run my games to level 20 on a regular basis. Totally fair if it’s not your thing, though!
Im surprised by monk, since that is weaker than fighter by far.
I think that depends a lot on your class/build, but I was definitely torn on fighter’s inclusion or not in the top 5.
It is so MAD if you go beyond Cleric, Druid, Ranger, or Rogue. Sure I want to beef up my Wizard's AC but having to invest in bother Dex and Wis to reach it is very limiting. In summary, the Unarmored Defense is a limited draw for a one level dip.
@@larscolson1383 Wizard dip Paladin or Ranger gets armor/shield/weapon proficiency, healing, and doesn't lose spell slot advancement 😬 Much better option than Monk (assuming you can't dip Artificer)
I appreciate your videos, but your pronunciation of "melee" is killing me. It is "May-lay" not "Mee-lee".
You’re not alone, I know. My apologies, this is a 3 decade habit I struggle to notice in the moment in order to break it.
I absolutely hate this mentality. I don’t allow people to multiclass without a narrative reason.
I'm not a DM but I've seen plenty of Paladin/Hexblades and Bard/Hexblades and whenever I asked them about their Patron they just looked back at me with blank stares. None of them ever even bothered to include one in their backstory. They just wanted those juicy features.
I don’t have an issue with multiclassing, but I do agree that a narrative reason is vital!
@ it’s been in the game for ages. We used to call it being a Munchkin but that’s sort of mean.
I think for example a fighter who later in the campaign finds a family secret that unlocks the magic potential hidden in his blood to multiclass his not sorcerer or something like that is totally fine but to do it just to cheese the game is a bummer for me.
Just to point out, people can play perfectly munchkin even without multiclassing, and vice versa - they can multiclass without necessarily being munchkin.
One of the big reasons to multiclass is if you’re trying to achieve a character concept that’s not really represented by any of the single classes. For example a more mage-y kind of gish than you might get from EK or warlock or Valor Bard. Does trying to achieve a certain fantasy count as “narrative reason” or does it have to be “the character had an in game mystical experience…”
I appreciate that munchkining can set a tone for the game that breaks immersion and isn’t fun for other players or the DM, but I think player intent is really the root of that, multiclassing may be a symptom but maybe not.
@ …..okay?
A mage gish already exists…. Eldrich knight and blade singer and probably several others, so muchkin excuses are weak
And as I already said I don’t care if multi class for a narrative reason. If it’s strictly for your muchkin “build” I wouldn’t allow it at my table
@DM-timothy yo one of my comment disappeared, it was factual, anything wrong ?
Nothing on my end. I don’t often delete comments (haven’t yet, actually) but sometimes RUclips moderates them themselves, and I rarely know precisely why. Sorry if that’s happening to your comment!
RUclips AI is fierce for deleting comments with no explanation 🤷