A nice follow up video would be about how to tie the history of the creation of magic items to their powers and the discovery of all this by the characters
It's a super solid stance. I wish it was more widespread in D&D culture like back in 2nd ed. Regardless, if your group is cool with that, it's honestly one of the BEST answers.
My game has the occasional merchant selling a "magic" item. Of course, when the light spell that made their "magic" sword glow wore off, the merchant was nowhere to be found. They were suspicious and cast detect magic, and lo and behold, the sword is enchanted with evocation magic, which was absolutely 100% true. That particular sword set them back 1000GP. And they thought they'd gotten a bargain. I do also let them buy the occasional actual magic item, but usually it's low-grade stuff - they also won an Immoveable Rod in a game of chance.
I've played around with a few different ways of doing some of this in my games; although it's a little easier without messing with any rules-as-written because I typically play Pathfinder, in which identify isn't an automatic 'learn-info' button, but a large bonus to your skill check to identify the item's properties (the spell that just gives you the answers is a 6th level one, so, usually fairly late-game stuff). This means that you can treat the identification stuff pretty much the same way you do things like Sense Motive (which I think is renamed to 'Insight' in 5e?) checks; giving the players full, partial, obscure, misleading, or even false information depending on their roll and the DC of the object (also, in PF, each object can only be attempted once a day). This all meshes quite well with a more in-universe descriptive and 'hint' based style like you talked about; and I recommend at least running this 'nerf' by your group as a way to add a little mystery back into Honestly, I often recommend that if you have problems with the balance of several certain spells or mechanics (identify, remove poison/disease/curse, and dispel magic especially) being able to too easily bypass obstacles with no real cost; check out the PF versions and see if they might work for you (which they might not of course, depending on how you and your party play) to save you some time on having to rework too much yourself. Other than that; I've mostly done things with homebrew items and/or systems (my main campaign I ran for a few years was a high-ish level, very high-magic, high-power one, so most magic items weren't _supposed_ to be 'special' or 'rare' at for them; and I was very generous with money and magic items in general; and when I want them to be more special, I would usually do it through either putting it in an encounter/situation with a lot of cool spectacle and memorable moments, and/or homebrewing an item to do cool things that specifically fit one of the party); but I do generally find that creating a good sense of 'mystery' and 'wonder' around magic is, after the first few levels, _really_ hard in the default settings and systems, and while a lot of these things can help you improve it, you're probably always going to feel that it's never quite enough. The fact of the matter is that the magic systems of D&D and PF are just _not_ designed to support narrative and atmospheric stuff very much; they have touches here and there, left over from the older editions, but mostly in a couple out-of-place quirks of flavor-text and restrictions that most classes and builds can just bypass anyway, it's all almost _exclusively_ built for gameplay. Magic is too ubiquitous in these worlds for any sense of rarity (without _extreme_ levels of curation by the DM and heavy restrictions on the players), has such little and such confusingly arbitrary (and often contradictory) flavor that there's not much to build on for any real sense of atmosphere; and it doesn't make enough logical or cohesive sense, and is far too random a kitchen-sink-amalgamation-of-tropes, for it to be used effectively for plot or puzzle purposes most of the time. If you want to get around any of those, it's going to take a _lot_ of extra work and you're probably going to have to be pretty restrictive on allowing/disallowing certain things; to the point where you're often better off just switching to another system and setting entirely if you want it to be a major theme in your games.
This is definitely my preferred style of delivering magic weapon or item mechanics to players. I can’t stand having to go above game to explain them like a video game tutorial.
Magic items have always been something I've homebrewed since AD&D days. My magic items gain power as the character levels up. Weapons are named and have history. Learning the lore of the poignard "Eye Biter" or the flamberge "Fleshripper" is part of character development and now I have ready made side quests for the PCs. The "Dramatic Moment" reveal is awesome. It's a very common trope for characters in fiction that when the first start to discover that they have powers that they are also unpredictable and tend to only manifest when the character is in peril. What I try to do is give the player the basic description like you did, "it's lighter than normal, sharper than normal, balanced perfectly, feels right on your hand" etc. so that they know it's worth holding onto. And if the 'wrong' PC is claiming the item then I do the reverse, "it feels like your holding a hilt made of thumbtacks" or "there's an unpleasant mild tingling that runs up and down your arm and seems to be headed for your heart" and if the item is powerful enough a magic/psychic shout in their head "NO" is a decent Rat Bastard DM response.
These are some good tips! One that I've been using is to give the item to flavor-text along with the stats. Kinda like those recipes with a story at the top. This way you can let them know what the item does, but introduce a new mystery. As an example, my table picked up a magic torch, pretty simple item itself, but the into said "These torches have been crafted for the royal bathhouse my Grand Artificer Zanraiden. I attest they should burn for no less than 600 years." All the sudden they had 100 more questions about the "dungeon" they'd been exploring.
Ooh, I like that! Curious, how do you "justify" the explanation? Is it flavor text essentially from Arcana knowledge of the group? Or are there cute little tags? ;) (mostly kidding on that last possibility..)
@DM-Timothy I think of it as being hidden within the spell that created the item. Like a bit of Easter egg code in a game. In the setting, the standardized imperial magic items don't have these messages. They only show up in ancient artifacts. Out of game, I give it to them in the little graphic I make for the homebrew items.
Very cool. That's definitely going to influence how I introduce magic items going forward. The best thing I'd been doing was determining that attunement give you an idea of what the things did but kinda vague on the details. (I know that wand can cast several times a day but I don't know exactly how many. I know the magical energy does harm to creatures but I don't know in what form it how much damage.) The details are revealed from actually using the item like you said... But your way adds extra wonder and epic-ness. Thanks man. Great video.
I think that becomes a big problem when the mage casts identity on an uncommon magic item like wand of magic missiles and doesn't know how many charges it has or that if they use them all up, that it crumbles. How about a Staff of the Python? Maybe they figure out it summons a huge constrictor, but if you leave it to "mystery" that when the snake dies, the staff crumbles, have you really done your job in providing mystery or tedium that led to a magic items being unnessesarily wasted? I would have an issue with mages or anyone able to get a hold/cast Identify just to be told even wasting a 1st level slot and Spell Known won't tell me that a short sword is simply a +2 weapon. Why did I pick Identify when I took Fey Ancestory when I could have picked Bless? Because I didn't know Identify was going to be nerfed. And Fey Ancestory and a Few other Magic feats is the only way casters other than mages can even get Identify. There's already drawbacks to Identify, like needing to touch the item which can be cursed and boom! You went from Identifying a magical item to being cursed by a cursed one. Irony! The mystery can easily be introduced via good descriptions. Most the items have decent flavored descriptions of what they do. I dont think nerfing Identify helps. It basically takes Identify and turns it into a more expensive Detect Magic because Detect Magic would also let you know about any magical auras and what school they are in.
As for flavor, I would ask the player how they see their own weapon before adding how I see that + 2 Longsword. If it's my Mystical Monk, she sees this thin long beautifully crafted Jian (Eastern version of the Longsword) with a flowing red tassle on the pommel. She's a bladesinger so this weapons lightness makes welding it as comfortable as spinning a light walking cane. It hums with an unearthly ethereal metallic hum and can easily scratch hardened steel like a diamond can do to gold. If the DM then wants to add a ledgend/name to it, sure. For a plus 2 weapon, what more "mystery" does one need? This isn't Artemis's sentient flaming blade, or Drizzts Iceing Death. This isnt that whack sword in Tyranny of Dragons that urges it's welding into bloodlust frenzies, its a powerful and beautifully crafted rare magical Jian/Longsword. Nothing more. Like, it would be wierd to get a +1 magical weapon that's so full of "mystery" and then you just end up trading it in or selling it off after 7 levels when you find a +2 weapon. Unless it's a + 3 weapon or has some powerful abilities, I wouldn't spend too much time adding a whole backstory to it detailing the last four generations of previous owners and all their exploits. Very Rare or Ledgendary items should get that treatment. Now that's a very special weapon and end game material. No one remembers the first magical blade Drizzt had because it was a common blade many drow had. They remember Icing Death and Twinkle. 😊
@@007ohboy Those are some good points. I've never had complaints and Identify still does a lot more than Detect Magic. It doesn't stop at what school of magic the item uses. And nothing would stop someone from saying that something will crumble after X uses. Identify at your table might do just that. I do generally find that fancy descriptions can build mystery about an item's background but the real thrill is figuring out what it does and making it work the first time. As for weapons, that'll always be figured out in combat if it's a +X. ("Plus two? Sweet!") But that's just me. I still have Identify do more than Detect Magic. I oversold the bit about not knowing "in what form" something takes damage. I think I usually state that, now that I think about it.
My personal favorite method is to swap Legend Lore and Identify’s spell level. That way you can give hints and lore at low levels, or skip straight to the crunch at higher ones.
I love this idea. And way to create such an incredibly memorable moment for your paladin
100%. And it’s fairly applicable to other classes and their iconic magic items, too
Experimentation with unidentified magic items has always been fun.
It can be! :D
A nice follow up video would be about how to tie the history of the creation of magic items to their powers and the discovery of all this by the characters
Solid suggestion. I’ll add it to the Musing list!
I once had a profound moment
"Magic items cannot be bought." I told A player. Suddenly our game was amazing...
It's a super solid stance. I wish it was more widespread in D&D culture like back in 2nd ed. Regardless, if your group is cool with that, it's honestly one of the BEST answers.
My game has the occasional merchant selling a "magic" item. Of course, when the light spell that made their "magic" sword glow wore off, the merchant was nowhere to be found. They were suspicious and cast detect magic, and lo and behold, the sword is enchanted with evocation magic, which was absolutely 100% true. That particular sword set them back 1000GP. And they thought they'd gotten a bargain. I do also let them buy the occasional actual magic item, but usually it's low-grade stuff - they also won an Immoveable Rod in a game of chance.
@@MarkoSeldo Ouchie! lol I bet they were even more cautious next time...
@@DM-Timothy well, they haven't tried shopping for magic items since then...
I've played around with a few different ways of doing some of this in my games; although it's a little easier without messing with any rules-as-written because I typically play Pathfinder, in which identify isn't an automatic 'learn-info' button, but a large bonus to your skill check to identify the item's properties (the spell that just gives you the answers is a 6th level one, so, usually fairly late-game stuff). This means that you can treat the identification stuff pretty much the same way you do things like Sense Motive (which I think is renamed to 'Insight' in 5e?) checks; giving the players full, partial, obscure, misleading, or even false information depending on their roll and the DC of the object (also, in PF, each object can only be attempted once a day). This all meshes quite well with a more in-universe descriptive and 'hint' based style like you talked about; and I recommend at least running this 'nerf' by your group as a way to add a little mystery back into
Honestly, I often recommend that if you have problems with the balance of several certain spells or mechanics (identify, remove poison/disease/curse, and dispel magic especially) being able to too easily bypass obstacles with no real cost; check out the PF versions and see if they might work for you (which they might not of course, depending on how you and your party play) to save you some time on having to rework too much yourself.
Other than that; I've mostly done things with homebrew items and/or systems (my main campaign I ran for a few years was a high-ish level, very high-magic, high-power one, so most magic items weren't _supposed_ to be 'special' or 'rare' at for them; and I was very generous with money and magic items in general; and when I want them to be more special, I would usually do it through either putting it in an encounter/situation with a lot of cool spectacle and memorable moments, and/or homebrewing an item to do cool things that specifically fit one of the party); but I do generally find that creating a good sense of 'mystery' and 'wonder' around magic is, after the first few levels, _really_ hard in the default settings and systems, and while a lot of these things can help you improve it, you're probably always going to feel that it's never quite enough.
The fact of the matter is that the magic systems of D&D and PF are just _not_ designed to support narrative and atmospheric stuff very much; they have touches here and there, left over from the older editions, but mostly in a couple out-of-place quirks of flavor-text and restrictions that most classes and builds can just bypass anyway, it's all almost _exclusively_ built for gameplay. Magic is too ubiquitous in these worlds for any sense of rarity (without _extreme_ levels of curation by the DM and heavy restrictions on the players), has such little and such confusingly arbitrary (and often contradictory) flavor that there's not much to build on for any real sense of atmosphere; and it doesn't make enough logical or cohesive sense, and is far too random a kitchen-sink-amalgamation-of-tropes, for it to be used effectively for plot or puzzle purposes most of the time. If you want to get around any of those, it's going to take a _lot_ of extra work and you're probably going to have to be pretty restrictive on allowing/disallowing certain things; to the point where you're often better off just switching to another system and setting entirely if you want it to be a major theme in your games.
Fair observations and suggestions. Thanks for your detailed comment! :)
This is definitely my preferred style of delivering magic weapon or item mechanics to players. I can’t stand having to go above game to explain them like a video game tutorial.
Totally agree!
"There are some who call me...Tim?"
;)
Magic items have always been something I've homebrewed since AD&D days. My magic items gain power as the character levels up. Weapons are named and have history. Learning the lore of the poignard "Eye Biter" or the flamberge "Fleshripper" is part of character development and now I have ready made side quests for the PCs.
The "Dramatic Moment" reveal is awesome. It's a very common trope for characters in fiction that when the first start to discover that they have powers that they are also unpredictable and tend to only manifest when the character is in peril. What I try to do is give the player the basic description like you did, "it's lighter than normal, sharper than normal, balanced perfectly, feels right on your hand" etc. so that they know it's worth holding onto. And if the 'wrong' PC is claiming the item then I do the reverse, "it feels like your holding a hilt made of thumbtacks" or "there's an unpleasant mild tingling that runs up and down your arm and seems to be headed for your heart" and if the item is powerful enough a magic/psychic shout in their head "NO" is a decent Rat Bastard DM response.
I like the idea of having picked a specific recipient and giving narrated clues like that. Very nice!
These are some good tips! One that I've been using is to give the item to flavor-text along with the stats. Kinda like those recipes with a story at the top. This way you can let them know what the item does, but introduce a new mystery. As an example, my table picked up a magic torch, pretty simple item itself, but the into said "These torches have been crafted for the royal bathhouse my Grand Artificer Zanraiden. I attest they should burn for no less than 600 years."
All the sudden they had 100 more questions about the "dungeon" they'd been exploring.
Ooh, I like that! Curious, how do you "justify" the explanation? Is it flavor text essentially from Arcana knowledge of the group? Or are there cute little tags? ;) (mostly kidding on that last possibility..)
@DM-Timothy I think of it as being hidden within the spell that created the item. Like a bit of Easter egg code in a game. In the setting, the standardized imperial magic items don't have these messages. They only show up in ancient artifacts. Out of game, I give it to them in the little graphic I make for the homebrew items.
@@Rayne_Storms Nice! I hope your players appreciate your diligent work! :)
Very cool. That's definitely going to influence how I introduce magic items going forward. The best thing I'd been doing was determining that attunement give you an idea of what the things did but kinda vague on the details. (I know that wand can cast several times a day but I don't know exactly how many. I know the magical energy does harm to creatures but I don't know in what form it how much damage.) The details are revealed from actually using the item like you said... But your way adds extra wonder and epic-ness. Thanks man. Great video.
My pleasure! Glad it was helpful. That's honestly always the biggest win for me to make a video worthwhile. :)
I think that becomes a big problem when the mage casts identity on an uncommon magic item like wand of magic missiles and doesn't know how many charges it has or that if they use them all up, that it crumbles.
How about a Staff of the Python? Maybe they figure out it summons a huge constrictor, but if you leave it to "mystery" that when the snake dies, the staff crumbles, have you really done your job in providing mystery or tedium that led to a magic items being unnessesarily wasted?
I would have an issue with mages or anyone able to get a hold/cast Identify just to be told even wasting a 1st level slot and Spell Known won't tell me that a short sword is simply a +2 weapon.
Why did I pick Identify when I took Fey Ancestory when I could have picked Bless? Because I didn't know Identify was going to be nerfed. And Fey Ancestory and a Few other Magic feats is the only way casters other than mages can even get Identify.
There's already drawbacks to Identify, like needing to touch the item which can be cursed and boom! You went from Identifying a magical item to being cursed by a cursed one. Irony!
The mystery can easily be introduced via good descriptions. Most the items have decent flavored descriptions of what they do.
I dont think nerfing Identify helps. It basically takes Identify and turns it into a more expensive Detect Magic because Detect Magic would also let you know about any magical auras and what school they are in.
As for flavor, I would ask the player how they see their own weapon before adding how I see that + 2 Longsword.
If it's my Mystical Monk, she sees this thin long beautifully crafted Jian (Eastern version of the Longsword) with a flowing red tassle on the pommel. She's a bladesinger so this weapons lightness makes welding it as comfortable as spinning a light walking cane. It hums with an unearthly ethereal metallic hum and can easily scratch hardened steel like a diamond can do to gold. If the DM then wants to add a ledgend/name to it, sure.
For a plus 2 weapon, what more "mystery" does one need? This isn't Artemis's sentient flaming blade, or Drizzts Iceing Death. This isnt that whack sword in Tyranny of Dragons that urges it's welding into bloodlust frenzies, its a powerful and beautifully crafted rare magical Jian/Longsword. Nothing more.
Like, it would be wierd to get a +1 magical weapon that's so full of "mystery" and then you just end up trading it in or selling it off after 7 levels when you find a +2 weapon.
Unless it's a + 3 weapon or has some powerful abilities, I wouldn't spend too much time adding a whole backstory to it detailing the last four generations of previous owners and all their exploits.
Very Rare or Ledgendary items should get that treatment. Now that's a very special weapon and end game material. No one remembers the first magical blade Drizzt had because it was a common blade many drow had. They remember Icing Death and Twinkle. 😊
@@007ohboy Those are some good points. I've never had complaints and Identify still does a lot more than Detect Magic. It doesn't stop at what school of magic the item uses. And nothing would stop someone from saying that something will crumble after X uses. Identify at your table might do just that.
I do generally find that fancy descriptions can build mystery about an item's background but the real thrill is figuring out what it does and making it work the first time. As for weapons, that'll always be figured out in combat if it's a +X. ("Plus two? Sweet!")
But that's just me. I still have Identify do more than Detect Magic. I oversold the bit about not knowing "in what form" something takes damage. I think I usually state that, now that I think about it.
How does this work when combined with the identify spell?
My personal favorite method is to swap Legend Lore and Identify’s spell level. That way you can give hints and lore at low levels, or skip straight to the crunch at higher ones.
But Timothy, that’s more work for me as a DM applying the effects of the magic item, without telling my player the stats 😅
But great thoughts!
Valuable video 🎉
Thank you for providing such content ❤
Hehe, it is true. I'm glad you enjoyed the video!! Thank you for saying so. Kind comments like that keep me going! :D
@@DM-Timothy greatings from Austria
@FixDnD Back at you from Washington State USA! :)
I identified that dwarf as gay. No mystery there lol