Honestly pretty disappointed in myself for this one! Could have made the video so much better, but way too many things went wrong (story for another day). After all the recent support you guys have shown, I'm determined to make sure I never let you down or waste your time, so this is the worst video I'm ever uploading from this day forward. Only bangers from here, see you for the Murim video 😤
There's a guy on youtube named perseus grim who made a bideo about this same topic of medieval satsis, he made good points and i suggest you check his video
If you want more views like the cultivation manga you should probably make a video about regressors or bully manhwa(seem like they all have similar audiences and similar trope)
Isn't that a modern very low fantasy with advanced tech, they don't even have fantasy creatures. It's just magic users and items. There isn't much fantasy of the fantasy series apart from people using magic in secret abd not instructing the non magic esper users.
@@bunnyconcubus8468 First- Magic users already make it a fantasy story regardless, it doesn't need to be set in medieval europe with 100+ magical creatures & races, and the intense scale of destroying the world and reshaping it 10k+ times definitely doesn't make it a low fantasy story. Second- Angels, Vampires, and Dragons are in the series, they're just not shoved in every second and wait for their time to shine & make a BIG impact. Third- It's morden setting is a refreshing take on the genres due to the fact that many stories with magic and science tend to focus on one over the other or fuse them together while Toaru separates them and sees how that affects the story.
@@Pumpkin7269 I wasn't saying to be fantasy that they need to be in medieval setting, my favorite genre of writing and consuming fantasy story is modern fantasy or advanced tech fantasy and wouldn't really call magic users fantasy. If a series just has a bunch of humans that ain't exactly fantasy-fantasy. Most fantasy lovers wouldn't exactly call it fantasy though. Monster musume is more fantasy than that series and yeah I wouldn't exactly call insane level of magic that can reshape the world is needed in fantasy, but whenever I'm looking for fantasy I at the very need a few fantasy races that aren't just human reskins. You can't tell me that the world your making is fantasy wether modern or not and not at the very least have more than humans running around the planet.
One work of fiction that I really like the magic system is A Practical Guide to Evil, in it there are various magic systems. But the main one, used by one of the most important characters, is Trismegistan Sorcery. It is interesting in the way it is a magic system that requires much study, research and trial and error, it is really like a form of science. It has to be very precise and it seems to involve a lot of arithmetics into it. People who don't have the actual ability to practice that magic can still study and understand it. Very cool.
Because a majority of fantasy settings are derivative of the Tolkien framework and medieval period was probably the last era of "epic fantasy" before the renaissance dispelled alot of myths. The medieval era, despite being relatively close to us, is so foreign in concept to how we live today, that it ends up being its own world that most people can quickly build something off of. Most writers don't want to add to much industrial tech because that would be to familiar and ruin the mystery. Science doesn't develop because of pure utility either, human curiosity and the search for answers to anything is good enough a reason for people to look at geology or anything else. That is also why I disagree with the whole "Magic is just unknown science" concept, because magic IS the unknown. Magic is whatever our imagination wants it to be. Science is just what we know so far.
When I added that sufficiently understood magic was indistinguishable from science, I wanted to get across the point you're suggesting. I had an entire section about why magic was so 'unmagical', but the video was too long, and it felt too off topic, so it had to get cut. The reason I don't think scientific advancement for the sake of curiosity is really feasible, is because of how many people and generations it takes for any practice to become meaningful. Because the science individuals might develop would have no uses, it would never be shared widely enough for people to continue after the originators, so it might become a cycle of new people starting the same field from scratch continuously
Magic or in sci fi sometimes called clarke tech where the whole "Any sufficiently advanced science is magic" thing comes from isnt just the unknown. It is also novel and the opposite of the Mundane. Take for example, Phones. Like you said there is a huge gap in understanding since back in the day and now. Yet you ,me and most people dont know how a phone actually works while literally anybody in the right place owns one. You dont know the intricacies of your touchpad the pixels generating light how it turns your touch into imputs how you can send mails or talk to people across the country or continent even. Nor do you know what it takes to calculate each action or the materials of each chip transistor cpu or such. Yet it isnt magic to you, just magic like at best in spite of not fully understanding it. That is what happens when things become mundane. Hardly anybody knows they hold a computer in their hands that once took BUILDINGS in size , Now small enough to fit in your pocket. Yet people rarely ask how or why. There is another point which is not knowing what you can all do with a tool or law yet we do utulize it. Either way the whole subject of Magic and Technology is very complicated when relating it to the Mind of Man.
I agree strongly on the curiosity point. Additionally, some inventions are developed accidentally. I'm reminded of how gunpowder was accidentally invented by Chinese sages wanting to create the Elixir of Immortality.
And even with more modern settings when I was a teenager I used to be really into urban fantasy and most of those books focus on the mystery and excitement of getting to discover and explore a hidden magical world somehow existing in cities and right under our noses
there is a genre called Magi Tech, it uses both magic and technology. it's either technology that uses magical energy for fuel or it's magic that follows the laws of physics and uses technology as a medium or catalyst to function.
I remember a anime where with the technology advancement, mages found out that they could translate the spells into binary code and execute them the same way you cast it, the anime was in the modern time where it was shown the spells being "cast" through phones and computers. 🤔
@@kintsuki99Well yeah, technology is just practical application of knowledge so even a wand that shoot fireball would be technology But I’d argue magic tech would still be a legit term. Technology is a general term has many types/subsets, biotech is focused on biology application, thus similarly “magitech” would just be technology that focus on the application of magic
@@kintsuki99 very shallow take. magitech as a term is assuming that the power source and/or means of accomplishing stuff is magical. if it's powered by a force that characters refer to as "magic" then the term is not ridiculous. it just means that this is a commonly used word for the forces involved, and implies that the modern idea of "magic" as a term to explain unexplainable and mysterious phenomenon is not how the term is used here
You shoukd take a look at the Kaimere setting, its both science fiction/fantasy with magic being a highly advanced bacteria that can transmute and teleport matter
@@jackmakila3776 Star wars fans hate the idea of the force being powered by Midoclorians. They prefer to think Midoclorians feed on the force not the source of it
[This comment is for Star Wars fans here] Aren't the Midochlorians *just a conduit,* which The Force flows through? Like, *how Qui-gon LITERALLY EXPLAINED IN Phantom Menace?* So, if Midochlorians are *just* a conduit of the Force (assuming I remembered it correctly), it means that the count still matter in "strength" and "capacity" of Force users, while *not* being a strict requirement like in (Canon) works after Prequels (presumed to be so by me at the moment)!
surprised nobody else has mentioned it, but Warcraft is a major example that comes to mind when I think of fantasy stories with technology and science, with theirs mostly being in the form of engineering and alchemy. Even then, their technology is often to sci-fi levels (mechsuits, airships, teleporters, etc.) while people are still using swords, bows, and magic.
Warcraft is a really cool setting, but technology is one of the biggest plot holes it has (in a franchise that's more holes than plot at this point). There isn't any good reason given in lore for why bows and crossbows are still around when gunpowder weapons are being mass-produced, or why the alliance hasn't poured ALL of its available resources into Gnomeregan to boost its technological level and just steamroll the horde under literal steamrollers. I love the setting, but the writers tend to operate under 'don't think too hard about it' rules.
21:30 "god forbid, dao of nuclear physics fall in the wrong hands" - Look up "cultivator against hero society" Its about a cultivation prodigy that got banished to another world (of superheroes) for the crime of inventing nuclear level attack that ANYONE COULD USE.
@@samuek607 Never a bad time but you should. Like in there world magic and Science are 2 means to an end and each FF game is based in a different time period or universe or dimension And they vary on how much science or magic influences there existence. But one of the core things about the lore is that high technology is actually the starting point of existence not cavemen and such Actually another series that does the same is Adventure time which is actually a world with science and magic Final fantasy 7, FF10, FF8, FF12 are great examples of this and good stories.
@@samuek607 Nope you can even start playing after you have gray hair and have more free time. That's the great thing about games (They are timeless). You'll still find people passionate about the game/story.
Your answer 3 is legit the plot of FF16 😅 In a world where you can just CREATE water by just having a Slav- i mean Magic Bearer hold a fancy rock, no wonder peasants couldn't figure out how to dig wells(an actual plot point). Yet, i like science fiction, despite knowing that a reality like that would be quite flat tbh. Honestly, extinction is the less likely route, i think Singularity would come really fast.
One I like is simply the pattern of progression and regression. Yes, the 5th demon lord's crusade, The wizard's reacherch in forbidden magic set off the magic nuke in the empire's capital or just the crimson moon calamity etc, will have such a devstaing effect and wipe the progress clean. Creating a cycle when they make progress and rebuild until the next world ending calamity hit them setting them back. A lot of fantasy seem to fit into it.
I understand how far that might set them back, but I also feel like such world's underestimate humans. As I made light reference to, the Late Middle Ages saw the European population cut entirely in half, *before* a hundred year war, and the adoption of one foreign technology immediately changed the era and threw humanity forward. Crisis and war have typically been the greatest motivations for development, and in a world where crisis is so likely, concentrating the intellectual wealth of a people in a single place that may easily be destroyed doesn't make sense to me
@@samuek607 yeah, people don't seem to realize how incredibly close the world would have to come to being totally destroyed for that to result in less technological development instead of more. i've definitely seen settings where they pulled that off, but more often than not it's kind of a cheap excuse that betrays how little the author actually knows about how industry and social development actually work
@@samuek607 but there's also the transmission of knowledge that is important for technology to be preserved not just developing it in the first place and we did have lost some technology in the flow of years (the most famous one is the recipe of greek fire as an example) and it's where a magic nuke might hurt a lot more on that front than event with more casualty because the casualty will be more important towards the specific group that will hold the specific knowledge (like if it kills most of your mage then the transmission of magic knowledge will be broken but it will not impact knowledge outside of that domain and a nuke also tend to destroy books and such contrary to sickness for example) and it's more often than technology lost in that way will just stay forgotten because the technology will just in an alternative route because that route as more research preserved to go forward that way than what was lost.
@@samuek607 Nah, its simple. A lot of the records were digital and then something happened to delete/make the data non-accessible. Sure, they have those fancy crystals that have all the data/lore of the world... but... whats the operating system to read it? Hell, that kind of interface does it use?
I honestly believe that many fiction writers are afraid of advance technology (mostly guns and electricity) because they think that it can undermine there whole magic system and setting. Even though it wouldn’t most of the time
For example early renaissance guns sucked butt in many aspects compared to bows and crossbows. As well even in modern time, the whole world doesn’t have electricity to rely on
@@trap-man22what made guns and even crossbows more preferably in comparison to actual bows is the fact that it's easier to learn how to use those than to spend years of training with a marksman or archer
That's something I completely forgot to talk about 😭 I studied ip on the creation of gunpowder, and the development of guns from the Fire Lance for nothing 😞
Most times it's hard to mesh magic with our current science, unless they try to make it sci-fi. And even at that, the science aspects come out inaccurate, and nobody wants to start studying the branches of physics so the story they intended to be fictional could be more accurate
Toaru does it well, a Cyberpunk-esc city filled with scientists, mechs, & espers (psychics basicly), and the Hidden magic society whose spells are based of mythical & religious stories (with angels and dragons hidden behind the scenes) fighting each other because they reject the other's Philosophies, along with some infighting as well, you get everything you want in a SiFi + Fantasy story there.
@@Hiddenphantom9999 To Aru is specifically made as an "what would happen if the biggest ocultist we know about actually had 4real 100% pure magic powers" thought experiment, Aleister Crowley being an recent guy is just because we know almost nothing about anyone before him (even Gille de Rais is a paragraph of provable trivia and a fucking bible of unknown / uncertain elements). And the magic actually influences the science more than the other way around, being a world were everyone of the Science Side is trying to study magic / espers while magicians just do their thing without caring about science (except by really niche uses by a handful of more progressist magicians). You can put the same idea in basically any timeframe and it would basically work the same. Just reskin the Scientists as Greek Philosophers, Medieval Scholars, Chinese Alchemists...
If it's not the feudal setting, sometimes you do get to see fantasies set in an industrial/turn of the century period. Avatar(get to see the before and after), Dishonored(magic impossibly rare, but bleeding edge tech that can sub for it from the fantasy creatures), Fable 3(An industrial nation surrounded by magic phenomena they just work around), Fullmetal Alchemist(totally indistinguishable), and the Old Kingdom series(plays with it, one country is WW1 England in all but name, and the Old Kingdom is locked into medieval. as soon as any tech crosses the border it falls apart and vice versa with charter magic.)
Pokémon has science. There are Pokémon professors dedicated to trying to learn about the setting's magical creatures and they have the ability to convert said creatures into energy and store them in balls. Cars, trucks and cruise ships exist. Guns used to exist but haven't appeared in any capacity since the banned "Legend of Dratini" episode.
@@MegaPokefan97 It's science-fantasy or contemporary fantasy. Sci-fi tends to be more futuristic settings or outer space. Pokémon's setting is roughly late 20th century/early 21st century with JRPG monsters running around that have "magical powers" that the player can capture and recruit. It's literally "fantasy monsters in the modern day but the player can befriend them".
LOTR is set in a post-post-post apocalypse, where one side is too busy developing cheap iron, while the other is too busy tragically dying out. Architectural and metallurgic advancements of Second Age are viewed as unachievable marvels in Third even by people who have eyewitnessed said age. It is implied that by Fourth Age the progress is to begin moving forward again. As for Frieren's setting, even by anime alone we can see fundamentally different course of development of tech into magitech. Anime only show glimpses, like mass-produced mavic lanterns or magic that is worked on and advanced as if it is software, but we also see that in 1000 years humans went from approximately Imperial Rome to pre-Renaissance late medieval period, so I see no scientific stagnation there whatsoever.
I mean it makes sense doesnt it. If magic is powerfull and common. It would make sense that people would study it rather than mechanical contraptions. Like why invent the pump if i can just conjure water.
@@herdoman5169 it can make sense, but that really depends. to use the pump example, we have to ask, how easy is it to conjure genuinely large amounts of water, how freely and consistently can people do it, and how many people are capable of that? automation is a big part of industry, even in partial terms. if the magic people are using to conjure water requires effort, resources (including something like "your own mana" or whatever) and for someone to be like, standing there doing it for a long period of time, that's already enough to drive a desire for inventions that automate at least some of the process
Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe has a setting that takes place in the far future where civilizations rise and fall, and in the current civilization, it has become so stagnated it resembled a somewhat medieval setting. However despite the usage of armors, swords, and spears, the existence of aircraft, aliens, and advance firearms are still present but in rare forms. The series has an interesting blend between science and fantasy
There is always science elements in fantasy world. it's either they didnt progress much or stagnated due to so many missing knowledge that neccessary to progress because the existance of magic. even worse scenrio is when magic or church intervented the human advancement because they simply possess a threat to their influence. there is soooo many story about it already explored and it's main topic in isekai genre with the gap of knowledge between the tranmigator and the locals
I remember there is a video about why people of Rome didn't use something like wheelbarrows. But people choose to carry things on their back or head. The reason is simple: there is no need to invent, produce and maintain something like a wheelbarrow. You don't need science to survive day to day life. And in the place of science, you can use any kinds of traditions instead.
Damn shame there was no Avatar in it, probably one of the best takes on magic tecnology and all, the ways the benders change architecture of cities, veicles and war machines. Ice or stons walls without entraces, gates only opened by bending air or fire, earth bender trolleys, the airbenders staffs, the fire kingdoms ballons, trains and tanks... And to add to the realism, small towns don't really share the tecnologies from the capitals. While you see the evolution in tecnology from Atla to Korra with cars, electricity and radios, your average small town in the earth kingdom barely changes in decades.
"Why doesn't Fantasy World have science" The local scholars, potionmakers and alchemists: Are we all one big joke to you? Also 1:31 depending on the verse magic can either do anything or nothing, so within that range: Holy magic cures all ailments, whatever transmutation magic can't, including possession and curses, and even boosts your energy sometimes. Telepathy and similar thought links can coordinate large numbers with ease. Accelerate. Boost. Force Repel. Or perhaps just get a faster animal. Freezing food perseves it nigh indefinitely. Now that I'm done, 21st century technology would certainly make for a great rival since it requires less cultivation of energy.
It could also be like Dune where there are personal magnetic shields that repels fast traveling projectiles with the caviat that slower weapons can penetrate the force field. So, people abandoned firearms for melee weapons.
@@Edujs23A rock moving as fast as a bullet will still be stopped. That's why projectile weapons in Dune use munitions that are capable of slowing right before they hit a shield so they can effectively bore through it.
Most fantasy takes notes from multiple eras, so if the science of what should and should not exist is revealed, it would create loads of paradoxes. Introduce magic, and you'd need to rewrite human history to account for all its consequences that impact scientific development. I watched another video, What Is 'Medieval' Fantasy?, highlighting how Lord of the Rings avoids placing itself in a distinct era in history to allow multiple settings to exist simultaneously, such as Isengard and The Shire.
Subbed because of your cultivation vid and also looked through some of your other vids on the channel because of it. Your long form vids are really good, especially ones like these where you go in-depth into explaining things.
RUclips used to send me to the naughty corner for long videos, but now that I know I have the green light to go ahead, there are a ton more on the way!
I remember reading an isekai manga where they used magic to control giant mechs to fight against demons and it’s been one of my favourite uses of tech in a fantasy world. I wish more fantasy writers would do that kind of stuff.
Attack on Titan did a great job blending both. It did such a good job with the story that most people don’t realize how well the science and fantasy elements were mixed
@@dankl3ss194 Its fiction. The origin of the powers is a mystery and ultimately irrelevant to the story. It can be alien, or a prehistoric thing, or has divine origins, it doesnt matter in the end. What matters is the application of it, and it did indeed do a great job at defining the rules and the nature of the Titan powers as well as blending it into military logistics in a realistic and fairly scientific manner.
@@yagoldt6195 Do you hear how dumb you sounds? So any story about anything like a medieval story about vampires can just say the vampires are bitten by aliens and the stupid readers should be happy? There is nothing logic or scientific about a random bullsht entity that has never appeared or hinted at before
I was targeting a duration of about 14 minutes for the algorithm, but I felt like that wasn't enough to say anything meaningful. Glad my decision to flesh it out more was worth something!
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket''/''xianxia flintlock rifle''/''xianxia cultivation-based snaphance gun'' or how a ''soul wheelock pistol''/xianxia cannon could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool imo, imagine how wealthy and powerful you could become if you were the owner of a weapon manufacturer company that mass produced these supernatural firearms.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke ""Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from science." - Larry Niven "It doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works." - Terry Pratchett
I love learning and I really quite enjoy how you mix learning about history with thinking & talking about worldbuilding. Also I both enjoy your voice and your general manner of speaking. Thank yoi for making this :)
"Literacy rates are questionable" that's one of the main answers right there. The social change to increase literacy rates is needed first. Once education becomes a standard simply by virtue of numbers and probability science will progress The better done settings without "science" treats it's magic in a scientific way so in reality there IS science Edit: also a common thing is that science did develop but something happened that made that civilization fall
an interesting and informative take. The question holds a lot more weight when only certain people are able to use Magic. So for everyone you can't it makes you wonder why they never go to the Science path.
There is a novel made by the author of LoTM called “Throne of the Magical Arcana” where magic is just science and magicians can use their “cultivation” so to speak to manipulate the laws of the world. The enemy of the so called “magicians” is the church who purposefully uses information to prevent science from spreading.
I read that just recently! Characters didn’t really grab me much, but the plots were woven together real masterfully and they had a lot of well writen climaxes. ToMA excels at making the reader come to a conclusion and then subverting it in a satisfying yet mind blowing way. The magiscience is also, of course, awesome. Fight scenes ranged from amazing to mid
Another video that touches this subject is: [Why Fantasy Worlds SHOULD Be Stuck in Medieval Times] by {Perseus Grim} which lays out some of his reasoning as to why fantasy is like that, mostly from an author/audience POV, I suggest anyone interested to check it out after this video.
this is why i love final fantasy 6 so much, that was the first time i see magitek (magic and technology) in a fantasy setting, even if its just steampunk its really cool to see science in fantasy setting
Those who rule through the right of might of magic would not want their rule to be challenged. They would suppress non-magical development aka suppress technological development.
Another awesome video. Great quality despite of what you said in the pinned comment. I love the editing and the choice of music. Script is also as crisp as always despite some slight meandering at times. There is one explanation regarding this subject that I haven't seen anyone mention. Namely the fact that rules of physics, the fundamental methods by which the world operates, can be completely different in fantasy than they are in the real world. I mean, a typical audience just straight up ignores all 3 laws of motion any time a character moves something with their mind. Especially the 3rd one. It doesn't break anyone's suspension of disbelief and it seems plausible despite making no sense if you think about it. Unless stated otherwise who's to say that a fantasy world is even made of atoms or that electricity can exist in it (In the same form it exists for us). There can be differences in chemistry that stop progress and industrialization from being possible. (At least the same type progresses our world experienced). Maybe coal doesn't exist or works differently, or plastic is impossible, or instead of fossil fuels dead biomatter becomes spirit stones. This could also easily work in combination with the other arguments stated in the video. It would just mean that the fantasy worlds have an uncanny resemblance to ours despite functioning differently. I think that we don't see this explanation because it is almost impossible to write it naturally into a story. Unless you had a protagonist that knows the physics of our world and the physics of the fantasy world and can compare them. Too bad no isekai would ever do something like that. Isekai authors would just find a way to make their characters' "comprehension of physics and chemistry" into something that makes said character OP. This explanation is always part of my head canon anyway, when watching/reading fantasy. Why is a 200m tall monster not collapsing under its own weight ? Physics is just built different around here, don't think about it. Why won't people just invent cars ? They are impossible or just not feasible. Gasoline doesn't exist. There is no efficient power source and no way to store energy because batteries won't work. Lithium doesn't exist. This world is not even made of atoms, why would it exist ?
I think its also down to many not being interested in science, and not wanting to worldbuilding all the complexities of the world. Most fantasy worlds are just more conservative versions of the countries the authors live in + magic - technology.
Honestly I always thought the reason fantasy worlds with magic never developed Science is because there was no need to 🤷♂. As the saying goes "necessity is the mother of invention" and with no aparente reason to delve into science they just never did.
the issue is that in most examples like this, they clearly do still have those needs, and a lot of fantasy just goes "well they have magic so they don't need tech" but then we never see them actually using magic to address those same problems, we just kinda pretend that because people know how to shoot fireballs and cast healing spells, no one cares about solving the ninety billion other problems everyone has. what would make the most sense is pretty much always going to be either having science as we understand it too OR developing uses for magic that actually address those needs, whether that's through magitech or something else. example: plumbing. i wanna see one of three things: they invented it anyway because of course they did, they invented plumbing systems using magical devices (this strikes me as generally the most reasonable option for high-magic settings), or there's some magical way to instantly and nearly effortlessly dispose of waste and that's what people are doing.
There's also the consideration that these fantasy worlds are set in earlier periods in history. We can't just assume "because they have magic, they would instantly have technology on par with ours in the real world, no matter what century they are in". There is also the fact that, even though some necessities aren't met with magic, it would be impractical to look for methods aside from magic to fix those problems. In a fantasy setting, if there WAS a need for plumbing (which there always is) they would instantly think of ways to make magic work for them, instead of some convoluted method that needs years of trial, error and refinement, as well as resources and research.
@blackban4689 I did acknowledge that I was excusing worlds that were simply in the past; I meant only to refer to worlds where tech stalled (if you caught this and you're just explaining it to the previous comment, my bad)
Thing is they do have some kind of tech, some fantasy have Trains that use vapor and they have carriages. There is a lot of normal people in fantasy story that don't have magic, and magic tend to be for the rich and the nobility. So the commoners artisans and merchants could develop science to make their life easier.
@@kagetsuki23 Yeah you're right,b ut that also varies from world to world, some only nobility can use magic, others any one can (it's up to the author of said world)
English is not my first language, so i have to concentrate some times to understand what are you saying, but the tone and the pace of your voice is calming. And the content is pretty cool
Well, if we're going to go this far, why do these worlds even have the same weapons, armor, and cityscapes? Outside of their walls be dragons and such, everything would be born of a necessity to combat the most pressing concerns.
Check out the powdermage trilogy it has technology in it, it is set in a Napoleonic wars kind of a fantasy world with guns and cannons and all of that and it has a really good magic system
One thing I've seen in Sword and Sorcery settings from time to time, inspired by Conan, is that things did in fact used to be more advanced, but things happened to cause massive losses of knowledge. And now, what we might see as obvious would be seen as just as magical as actual sorcery. Also, there was a story where the reason there was a lack of combustion engines was because god like figures saw some of the things in that tech tree and altered local metaphysics so internal combustion engines acted as rituals generating fire elementals, or was it rifts to the realm of fire? One of those. But yeah, another might be that they went digital. And then something happened to make it so that all that information is no longer accessible/readable. Mostly because they lost the means to access the storage mediums for the data.
@@samuek607 Think it was a warcraft fanfic to be honest. Mostly just remembered it because they did it because they didn't want demons using that tech tree and so had to make it non-viable for everyone. Which yeah, is another reason why some fantasy settings might not have advanced technology. Divine level figures placing consequences/denial on certain kinds of tech they don't like/want people using.
Honestly, it's one of the things I always want to see in a setting with lesser technology than us. Such places don't have to develop the same things as us, and that's the whole appeal of technological progress in my eyes. Magic-centric settings with a level of science comparable to our own wouldn't have to be solely medieval for example, they would definitely have at one point a knowledge of physics entirely distinct to our own because of its interaction with magic, even though it still unlocks progress towards certain processes that we know of today, like the nuclear. It's a very interesting thing to explore, so it's always great when I see a work have some.
Maybe you could do a follow up at some point at the various works that combine the two genres. There's quite a few as other comments have pointed out, but you even used Brandon Sanderson's Knights Radiant in the video (around when you mentioned that nowadays we see magic as a sort of science in their own world)- he has trains, rockets, and other forms of tech in some of his stories. And Avatar the Last Airbender and Nimona come to mind as well, though admittedly there wasn't a lot of magic in Nimona, just Nimona herself
Honestly this is the same reason I gave my world magic but also "modern" weapons. Specifically percusion cap style ones with an addiotion festure of making "batteries" which badically act as a one time magic realease item whedre or not you personally can use magic that allow for elemebtal attack attridbute as well. After coming from DnD RP origins and making my own "homebrew" (which might as well be entirely different from standard DnD by the end of my making it) mix of magic and technology.
I think one way you could have science in a fantasy world would be for someone who does not have access to magic desperately searching for an alternative out of the desire to overcome their own perceived weakness.
I agree. I brought up for rare magical abilities were with this in mind. There have to be *some* people who try make use of any resources available to try achieve something
There's this series called the "Index series." Where Science side uses Psychic powers, While the Magic Side uses magic. Fights between a Psychic and a Magician is very entertaining since there are two power systems with different mechanics clashing with each other
Magic is their science. It’s how their world works, and because it functions differently then the time is also different. But it’s also kind of weird to really put a number and a scale on development and advancement. How would we know if we’re as advanced as we’re supposed to be. There’s nothing else to compare us to. We just know if part of the world does or doesn’t have what we consider the latest and best thing invented. Even if something advanced was invented or thought of, then it would just be lost again if the it wasn’t useful enough for the people around them. Things are made to solve a problem they have with the materials they have available and then it’s up to luck if it survives. You can have made a medicine that cures everything, but it won’t stop some guy from killing you with a sword and burning your house and all of your research to ash. Magic just changes everything in the world. Maybe the medieval world of most fantasy is actually too similar to our world. It’s like they add magic into whatever time period the story takes place in. If magi and magical beasts were a natural part of the world then cavemen would also have been affected by it. Every step of human evolution would have been affected by it and so it would be completely different.
Bro is casually making these Goated videos I hope your hard work succeeds you seem like one of the more intelligent RUclipsrs so I believe you’ll find away to good profits please keep making Epic vids like this And one more thing could you make a video on your opinion of how to make A Sci-Fi/Fantasy manga cuz it would be pretty cool
I won't claim to be intelligent, but I appreciate the compliment! Haven't really made any videos about how to *make* manga, but after a few of the videos in the queue right now are done, it shouldn't be too much trouble to consider
They have... Science is the obsevation and notation of the natural world not the technology that comes from it. Anyworld with magic were there are magic scholars there is science, as magic is part of the natural world and is being studied. In One Piece there are chracters that are especifically called scientists and they research things, which includes the "magic" existing in their world. Magic is a science.
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket'' or how a xianxia cannon could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool tbh
Reforged from Ruin kinda does that. With story progressing towards the centre of all-colonizing Empire there's more technical advancements too see, more sophisticated creations mixed from high tech and classical xianxia stuff. You can divine shit? Why not make a whole ministry that utilizes tech to unite minds and powers of many practitioners to spy across all vast territories of your state?
That's a reason why in my DnD setting I use only a short timespan between recent iron age and an apocalyptic war that cuts the development of civilization short. For the same reason I pushed it behind middle ages and gave a smattering of mostly magic-based inventions that enter the world gradually. I feel that if I at any moment give the world more than around 1000 years of stagnation in the same-ish era, it will take down all the realistic elements I am trying to implement.
Concerning the plague: It also gave workers a lot more power as they suddenly were in much scarcer supply, so technologies that helped the lower classes could have more support at the time.
First off this is interesting stuff, I just subscribed and like your videos so far. I like the Fantasy worlds where Science is a thing and it does advance or alternately it regressed and the current setting is like Roman fell so we need a few hundred years to get out stuff together. Eminence in Shadow is a recent example.
I also imagine certain scientific advancments are really hard to make when your geniuses keep either getting stolen away to a mages tower, or eaten by monsters.
Honestly, this topic is why i love the guilty gear series. They don't trust science because of y2k (im not kidding), so they turned to magic, but they treat magic like a science.
wow, i always answered this question thinking that mages would be outdone by the sheer quantity of budget and time required to train one, rather than simply giving a gun to a child. but this was truly well thought and fast paced great video !
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket'' or ''spirit pistol'' or how a xianxia cannon /Qi-powered grenade could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool imo...
Technology is application of science. If the world have magic eventually it would develop into its own field of research & its own form of technology. For example: In Ozanari Dungeon(& its spin-off), there are flying vehicles, flying fortress/castle, companies producing chimera(basically the magic version of biotech) but because the amount of people gifted with magic(need to help create & fuel the magic engine that is key to running or to the process of producing these invention) is limited, the distribution of tech is not uniformed with large part of some population living in medieval age, there is only 1 notable scientist trying to make non magic machine for ordinary folk because it cost money & time, with most of the knowledge & high tech facility designed around magic it's harder & less profitable for them to switch to research non-magic tech, although this mad scientist always try to run before he could walk, instead of making simple machine 1st, he always try to make mecha
Supporting argument for the first section of answer three: rome actually invented basic steam engines. They were considered useless curiocities. Slaves were cheaper, easier to work with, and more versatile. I think magic would find a similar interplay with science. Though, personally, you're more likely to find a lot of things like chemistry and physics being discovered and utilized by mages to more efficiently cast their magics rather than making machines. Also; do you think nuclear dao would be demonic or orthodox in nature?
The main reason why magic and science usually dont go together is the fact that magic breaks physics. I mean that doesnt sound too bad until you realize that technology is all about exploitation of laws. And a way to circumvent any limits there(that are there for a good reason) would lead to a very unbalanced situation of an infinjte energy source given enough time. In my opinion it becomes something of a huge flaw in the worldbuilding of any magitech genre as it will always have the overarching “why didnt they just” question. Like why dont they use magic to create uranium or whatever. And the only counter to that is they dumb and dont u can do that.
Going with your “writers too lazy to do research” reason, I am in the camp that many writers mimic their favorite media without looking deeper into the nuance of why certain tropes were implemented in those works. The writer includes classic narrative elements (like magic or lack of tech) because they are cool and/or expected for their genre, but don’t consider in-depth how they would affect the development of their story worlds. I think in general writers (myself included 😅) should study Earth history more and experience real life more to better inform their own works. Sidenote to the above: Not every story needs deep worldbuilding, and it’s more important that you finish your story than get distracted perfecting every little detail. I just appreciate an effort to having the setting make sense on at least a surface level.
The inclusion/exclusion of science definitely doesn't make/break a story (barely matters if we're being honest), but an understanding of the development of civilization is super important for any fantasy writer to make a convincing world (regardless of how much/little is actually revealed)
I regret to inform you that this video's alleged quality did NOTHING to reduce my enjoyment of it. (yed, including the info dump) Joke aside, the inherent human selfishness boosted by the corruption of power are probably the two strongest reasons for science in fantasy worlds to be mismatched. In the world setting I write, technology (as we understand today) is an extension of magical academy, where the "fuel" for any artifact is the very same resource that only mages get access to, giving THEM the ability to control it's advancement and spread. In the setting there is a single location with technology beyond ours, and it's (unsurprisingly enough) led by a legendary archmage who has the entire island under tight surveilance, ensuring secrets cannot leak unless he allows it.
Is your writing available anywhere? I love reading (as my channel should make apparent lol), and it sounds like a story which explores the effects of a non-earth setting on the development of societies and psychologies, which happens to be my favourite kind of story (actually read SEVERAL Isaac Asimov books over the last few months and have a hole to fill)
@@samuek607 damn I'm sorry to say that no, I have explored it over the years and written the outline but life's just been in the way to say the least. Does make me glad to hear the description for my setting compared to the big man, my library is full of his books as my father was a huge fan and I grew up reading his works!
So... what about fantasy worlds that do have tech and robots? Either from ancient civs, like The Elders Crolls and NWC era Might and Magic games, or by advancements of some races, like Azeroth's Gnomes and Goblins tech.
this is why when i showed freiren to my boss at work she was like "really? thousands years past and no one really invented something scientifically or technologically?" mind you she asked me what is the best anime right now because she really liked FMAB.. and also Freiren is top 1 in MAL at some time when i told her to watch it and so she was under the impression that fantasy world? in anime? and it's above FMA? so it should probably have the sam-- no it's not.. FMA still had magic system but it was grounded by science. Also I like Mushouko tensei because it's only the protagonist with our education system.. applied science to their Magic system (in light novel they go indepth as to how the MC come up with his spells)
I have a setting i'm fleshing out where science is just unrefined magic and magic is the end goal. So science typically comes first and magic later. But magic is also a fundamental force of the universe and not a snap your fingers and make stuff happen kind of thing. I got the idea after studying up "real world magic" rituals and practices like Chaos Magic and stuff for writing purposes, the idea being it's not just shooting fireballs like a superhero but requires a sort of mental and spiritual quantum connection to the forces of the universe and years of training, practice, trial and error. Sticks and stones came first and spiritual refinement and magic later in this setting. Trying to master nature with brute force to mastering yourself and your connection with all things yada yada.
There are I think a few other reasons why. Perhaps the world doesn’t operate on our real world laws of physics, but instead on something else (the world of glorantha comes to mind) which ensures that the rules governing that world cannot be exploited in the same way as in our world. Another reason being that the real life scientific method may not be as easily discovered as we think. (In essence the scientific method is an anwser to a really difficult question, that we already know). In fantasy world it may be even more difficult to stumble upon it. How could a scientist from a magical world know, that the world is governed by laws and rules if a mage regularly circumvents them and gods perform miracles?
I'd never heard of Glorantha before (I'll have to give it a look), but you're right about natural laws being an explanation. I completely overlooked that. As for the scientific method, I think I forgot to say this (my bad), but gatherings of wizards like magic towers/circles feel to me like evidence it exists. Mages dedicate themselves to the research and furthering of magic the way any reputed scientists would, I just think the difference is *where* those efforts are directed
I don’t think scienctific method would be reliant on real physical law at all. Scientific method is just a list of steps to acquire knowledge. Any fantasy world where there’re wizard councils doing wizardry research would likely follow the scientific method. The expansive list of hundreds and thousands of spells doesn’t just spawn out of thin air when the first person cast the first magic spell. Spells would’ve been created, tested, recorded and passed down over centuries to accumulate into a giant list. Let’s say we want to create a big fireball spell Step 1 - observation/question - we need a big fireball Step 2 - research similar - a smaller fireball spell already exist Step 3 - hypthesis - what if we make the small fireball bigger by adjusting the material component or changing incantation Step 4 - experiment - test the new spell and analyze the result, if it fail then back to step 3 and try again Step 5 - conclusion - after multiple tests to make sure it’s safe and not a fluke, the “big fireball” spell is completed and can be recorded into whatever spell books or taught to others
Saw some of your older videos, saw alot of webtoon content, would be interested to hear if you have heard or read, the warrior returns, it has some amazing soundtracks that ive never expected to be from a webtoon
1. Contempt (Either of the present or the future) 2. Changing of landscapes (Or ignorance of history) 3. Science wouldn't land in the hands of the common man but only serve to advance the ruling class (Hextech from Arcane)
Thanks for the video, this is something I keep thinking about if fantasy worlds should have science and technology separated from magic, or a combined form of both or if it should have technified magic instead of real world science. So how about this?: The advancement of science and technology in fantasy worlds should be inversely proportional to how common and useful magic is. (I honestly want to hear opinions on this because I'm not saying this is the definitive answer, just the best one I have at the moment after thinking about the answer number 3 of the video)
Avatar: The Last Airbender is a fantasy series w/a magic system (bending)...and it has tech that had advanced (especially by the time of its sequel series: The Legend of Korra).
I don't know what you mean by yapping too much: I'm thoroughly enjoying a deep dive into the topic! Now, by the end of a video I had a thought. This is all the reasons why rantasy worlds would NOT develop science. But what if they did? For what reason they would, and how could that shape these societies? The irony of talking about aristocrats not wishing to give the commoners tools while showing Howl's Moving Castle which has riflemen and super bombers is not lost on me :D If you haven't done that already, I think that would make for a video just as interesting as this one 🙏
They do. It's just not very advanced. The problem is we write pre-modern fantasy worlds with the perspectives of our post-modern reality. So people in these worlds don't have electrictiy, but they still act like a fratbro addicted to his iphone. We usually remember to do stuff like change "Hh my God!" to "By the gods!" but without seriously entertaining what peoples actual relationship to such concepts actually was, so their psycology is very out of place and can feel "anachronistic" depending on how much the historical aspect of the fantasy elements is stressed. A remedy for this would be for education to take the re-enactment aspect of history a bit more seriously as opposed to a purely academic perspective.
Imagined: Necromancer and their army of skeletons sitting behind desks in a room with a illusory projection of one page on a wall, so that every skeleton could see it. Undead Printing Press.
Hey can someone give me the name of the anime around 12:55 with the earthquake sending a locomotive flying? I think I need to watch it. Also, great video OP you explained it just like I would have but somehow better due to your precise references and sources. I'm subscribing now keep it up!
Honestly pretty disappointed in myself for this one! Could have made the video so much better, but way too many things went wrong (story for another day).
After all the recent support you guys have shown, I'm determined to make sure I never let you down or waste your time, so this is the worst video I'm ever uploading from this day forward. Only bangers from here, see you for the Murim video 😤
There are a couple rough minutes in the beginning, but it seems fine after that so far
There's a guy on youtube named perseus grim who made a bideo about this same topic of medieval satsis, he made good points and i suggest you check his video
If you want more views like the cultivation manga you should probably make a video about regressors or bully manhwa(seem like they all have similar audiences and similar trope)
IT GIVE ME MAAAAANYYY IDEAS.
Nah this was great
"Why do Fantasy stories don't have any science elements?"
Toaru Franchise: This is a weakness that doesn't exist for me.
Isn't that a modern very low fantasy with advanced tech, they don't even have fantasy creatures. It's just magic users and items. There isn't much fantasy of the fantasy series apart from people using magic in secret abd not instructing the non magic esper users.
@@bunnyconcubus8468
First- Magic users already make it a fantasy story regardless, it doesn't need to be set in medieval europe with 100+ magical creatures & races, and the intense scale of destroying the world and reshaping it 10k+ times definitely doesn't make it a low fantasy story.
Second- Angels, Vampires, and Dragons are in the series, they're just not shoved in every second and wait for their time to shine & make a BIG impact.
Third- It's morden setting is a refreshing take on the genres due to the fact that many stories with magic and science tend to focus on one over the other or fuse them together while Toaru separates them and sees how that affects the story.
@@Pumpkin7269 I wasn't saying to be fantasy that they need to be in medieval setting, my favorite genre of writing and consuming fantasy story is modern fantasy or advanced tech fantasy and wouldn't really call magic users fantasy.
If a series just has a bunch of humans that ain't exactly fantasy-fantasy. Most fantasy lovers wouldn't exactly call it fantasy though. Monster musume is more fantasy than that series and yeah I wouldn't exactly call insane level of magic that can reshape the world is needed in fantasy, but whenever I'm looking for fantasy I at the very need a few fantasy races that aren't just human reskins. You can't tell me that the world your making is fantasy wether modern or not and not at the very least have more than humans running around the planet.
i came to say this
@@Pumpkin7269hence "low" fantasy
A fantasy world's version of science would be magic-research.
Because sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.
Indeed
An anime that follows this is the irregular at magic high school
One work of fiction that I really like the magic system is A Practical Guide to Evil, in it there are various magic systems. But the main one, used by one of the most important characters, is Trismegistan Sorcery.
It is interesting in the way it is a magic system that requires much study, research and trial and error, it is really like a form of science. It has to be very precise and it seems to involve a lot of arithmetics into it. People who don't have the actual ability to practice that magic can still study and understand it. Very cool.
Because a majority of fantasy settings are derivative of the Tolkien framework and medieval period was probably the last era of "epic fantasy" before the renaissance dispelled alot of myths. The medieval era, despite being relatively close to us, is so foreign in concept to how we live today, that it ends up being its own world that most people can quickly build something off of. Most writers don't want to add to much industrial tech because that would be to familiar and ruin the mystery.
Science doesn't develop because of pure utility either, human curiosity and the search for answers to anything is good enough a reason for people to look at geology or anything else. That is also why I disagree with the whole "Magic is just unknown science" concept, because magic IS the unknown. Magic is whatever our imagination wants it to be. Science is just what we know so far.
When I added that sufficiently understood magic was indistinguishable from science, I wanted to get across the point you're suggesting. I had an entire section about why magic was so 'unmagical', but the video was too long, and it felt too off topic, so it had to get cut. The reason I don't think scientific advancement for the sake of curiosity is really feasible, is because of how many people and generations it takes for any practice to become meaningful. Because the science individuals might develop would have no uses, it would never be shared widely enough for people to continue after the originators, so it might become a cycle of new people starting the same field from scratch continuously
A lot of mathematical excercises were completely useless and were developed because of curiosity, now they are used in cryptography.
Magic or in sci fi sometimes called clarke tech where the whole "Any sufficiently advanced science is magic" thing comes from isnt just the unknown. It is also novel
and the opposite of the Mundane.
Take for example, Phones. Like you said there is a huge gap in understanding since back in the day and now. Yet you ,me and most people dont know how a phone actually works while literally anybody in the right place owns one. You dont know the intricacies of your touchpad the pixels generating light how it turns your touch into imputs how you can send mails or talk to people across the country or continent even. Nor do you know what it takes to calculate each action or the materials of each chip transistor cpu or such. Yet it isnt magic to you, just magic like at best in spite of not fully understanding it. That is what happens when things become mundane. Hardly anybody knows they hold a computer in their hands that once took BUILDINGS in size , Now small enough to fit in your pocket. Yet people rarely ask how or why.
There is another point which is not knowing what you can all do with a tool or law yet we do utulize it.
Either way the whole subject of Magic and Technology is very complicated when relating it to the Mind of Man.
I agree strongly on the curiosity point. Additionally, some inventions are developed accidentally. I'm reminded of how gunpowder was accidentally invented by Chinese sages wanting to create the Elixir of Immortality.
And even with more modern settings when I was a teenager I used to be really into urban fantasy and most of those books focus on the mystery and excitement of getting to discover and explore a hidden magical world somehow existing in cities and right under our noses
there is a genre called Magi Tech, it uses both magic and technology. it's either technology that uses magical energy for fuel or it's magic that follows the laws of physics and uses technology as a medium or catalyst to function.
Isn't it a trope?
I remember a anime where with the technology advancement, mages found out that they could translate the spells into binary code and execute them the same way you cast it, the anime was in the modern time where it was shown the spells being "cast" through phones and computers. 🤔
Magic is technology...
That term "magi tech" is ridiculous and shows how little people understand of the world they live in.
@@kintsuki99Well yeah, technology is just practical application of knowledge so even a wand that shoot fireball would be technology
But I’d argue magic tech would still be a legit term. Technology is a general term has many types/subsets, biotech is focused on biology application, thus similarly “magitech” would just be technology that focus on the application of magic
@@kintsuki99 very shallow take. magitech as a term is assuming that the power source and/or means of accomplishing stuff is magical. if it's powered by a force that characters refer to as "magic" then the term is not ridiculous. it just means that this is a commonly used word for the forces involved, and implies that the modern idea of "magic" as a term to explain unexplainable and mysterious phenomenon is not how the term is used here
You shoukd take a look at the Kaimere setting, its both science fiction/fantasy with magic being a highly advanced bacteria that can transmute and teleport matter
Thats just starwars
Gave it a quick google. Don't usually read anything that short, but I may be tempted to make an exception :)
@@samuek607 Nice, new video confirmed 👏🏻
@@jackmakila3776 Star wars fans hate the idea of the force being powered by Midoclorians. They prefer to think Midoclorians feed on the force not the source of it
[This comment is for Star Wars fans here]
Aren't the Midochlorians *just a conduit,* which The Force flows through? Like, *how Qui-gon LITERALLY EXPLAINED IN Phantom Menace?* So, if Midochlorians are *just* a conduit of the Force (assuming I remembered it correctly), it means that the count still matter in "strength" and "capacity" of Force users, while *not* being a strict requirement like in (Canon) works after Prequels (presumed to be so by me at the moment)!
surprised nobody else has mentioned it, but Warcraft is a major example that comes to mind when I think of fantasy stories with technology and science, with theirs mostly being in the form of engineering and alchemy. Even then, their technology is often to sci-fi levels (mechsuits, airships, teleporters, etc.) while people are still using swords, bows, and magic.
Warcraft is a really cool setting, but technology is one of the biggest plot holes it has (in a franchise that's more holes than plot at this point). There isn't any good reason given in lore for why bows and crossbows are still around when gunpowder weapons are being mass-produced, or why the alliance hasn't poured ALL of its available resources into Gnomeregan to boost its technological level and just steamroll the horde under literal steamrollers. I love the setting, but the writers tend to operate under 'don't think too hard about it' rules.
21:30 "god forbid, dao of nuclear physics fall in the wrong hands" - Look up "cultivator against hero society"
Its about a cultivation prodigy that got banished to another world (of superheroes) for the crime of inventing nuclear level attack that ANYONE COULD USE.
Some do. Some don't
Final fantasy has science and magic for example
Would this be a bad time to confess I've never played?
@@samuek607 Never a bad time but you should. Like in there world magic and Science are 2 means to an end and each FF game is based in a different time period or universe or dimension
And they vary on how much science or magic influences there existence.
But one of the core things about the lore is that high technology is actually the starting point of existence not cavemen and such
Actually another series that does the same is Adventure time which is actually a world with science and magic
Final fantasy 7, FF10, FF8, FF12 are great examples of this and good stories.
There’re at least 16 numbered main entries plus sequels, remakes and spin-offs. Surprised you didn’t try one, even for curiosity.
@@samuek607 Nope you can even start playing after you have gray hair and have more free time. That's the great thing about games (They are timeless). You'll still find people passionate about the game/story.
@@pablotomasllodra4423 Gaming wasn't really a thing back in my day...
Me now: Wow, he's making learning kinda alright
Me tomorrow: 'Movable Type?' Stop making things up.
I thought it was a typo the first time I read about it
Your answer 3 is legit the plot of FF16 😅 In a world where you can just CREATE water by just having a Slav- i mean Magic Bearer hold a fancy rock, no wonder peasants couldn't figure out how to dig wells(an actual plot point). Yet, i like science fiction, despite knowing that a reality like that would be quite flat tbh. Honestly, extinction is the less likely route, i think Singularity would come really fast.
One I like is simply the pattern of progression and regression. Yes, the 5th demon lord's crusade, The wizard's reacherch in forbidden magic set off the magic nuke in the empire's capital or just the crimson moon calamity etc, will have such a devstaing effect and wipe the progress clean. Creating a cycle when they make progress and rebuild until the next world ending calamity hit them setting them back. A lot of fantasy seem to fit into it.
I understand how far that might set them back, but I also feel like such world's underestimate humans. As I made light reference to, the Late Middle Ages saw the European population cut entirely in half, *before* a hundred year war, and the adoption of one foreign technology immediately changed the era and threw humanity forward. Crisis and war have typically been the greatest motivations for development, and in a world where crisis is so likely, concentrating the intellectual wealth of a people in a single place that may easily be destroyed doesn't make sense to me
@@samuek607 yeah, people don't seem to realize how incredibly close the world would have to come to being totally destroyed for that to result in less technological development instead of more. i've definitely seen settings where they pulled that off, but more often than not it's kind of a cheap excuse that betrays how little the author actually knows about how industry and social development actually work
@@samuek607 i prefer the way tensura does it, where a calamity set on a clock happens striking every advanced nation back to the stone age
@@samuek607 but there's also the transmission of knowledge that is important for technology to be preserved not just developing it in the first place and we did have lost some technology in the flow of years (the most famous one is the recipe of greek fire as an example) and it's where a magic nuke might hurt a lot more on that front than event with more casualty because the casualty will be more important towards the specific group that will hold the specific knowledge (like if it kills most of your mage then the transmission of magic knowledge will be broken but it will not impact knowledge outside of that domain and a nuke also tend to destroy books and such contrary to sickness for example) and it's more often than technology lost in that way will just stay forgotten because the technology will just in an alternative route because that route as more research preserved to go forward that way than what was lost.
@@samuek607 Nah, its simple. A lot of the records were digital and then something happened to delete/make the data non-accessible. Sure, they have those fancy crystals that have all the data/lore of the world... but... whats the operating system to read it? Hell, that kind of interface does it use?
I honestly believe that many fiction writers are afraid of advance technology (mostly guns and electricity) because they think that it can undermine there whole magic system and setting. Even though it wouldn’t most of the time
For example early renaissance guns sucked butt in many aspects compared to bows and crossbows. As well even in modern time, the whole world doesn’t have electricity to rely on
@@trap-man22what made guns and even crossbows more preferably in comparison to actual bows is the fact that it's easier to learn how to use those than to spend years of training with a marksman or archer
That's something I completely forgot to talk about 😭
I studied ip on the creation of gunpowder, and the development of guns from the Fire Lance for nothing 😞
@@itsjustvin7630 you’re on the money on the fact that bows just take a long time to learn, and there also more versatile too.
Most times it's hard to mesh magic with our current science, unless they try to make it sci-fi. And even at that, the science aspects come out inaccurate, and nobody wants to start studying the branches of physics so the story they intended to be fictional could be more accurate
I think that sci-fi and fantasy if mixed well can be great
I've seen some mixed stories before, but I'm not sure I've found one with a perfect balance yet
@@samuek607Evangelion does this well
@samuek607 Some try to achieve a balance but then decide that magic is more fun and abandon the science side
Toaru does it well, a Cyberpunk-esc city filled with scientists, mechs, & espers (psychics basicly), and the Hidden magic society whose spells are based of mythical & religious stories (with angels and dragons hidden behind the scenes) fighting each other because they reject the other's Philosophies, along with some infighting as well, you get everything you want in a SiFi + Fantasy story there.
something something science-fantasy. combining anomalies(magic) with technology
Index glaring at corner (it’s an absolute masterpiece imo)
I will confess that I might have only seen a single season well over a decade ago ;-;
Might be time to give it a fair shot
@@samuek607If so read everything but do not watch the anime
@@samuek607 I would recommend reading it otherwise it's very confusing and the anime was super rushed
Index/Railgun are Urban Fantasy. He’s talking about more historical times.
@@Hiddenphantom9999 To Aru is specifically made as an "what would happen if the biggest ocultist we know about actually had 4real 100% pure magic powers" thought experiment, Aleister Crowley being an recent guy is just because we know almost nothing about anyone before him (even Gille de Rais is a paragraph of provable trivia and a fucking bible of unknown / uncertain elements).
And the magic actually influences the science more than the other way around, being a world were everyone of the Science Side is trying to study magic / espers while magicians just do their thing without caring about science (except by really niche uses by a handful of more progressist magicians).
You can put the same idea in basically any timeframe and it would basically work the same. Just reskin the Scientists as Greek Philosophers, Medieval Scholars, Chinese Alchemists...
If it's not the feudal setting, sometimes you do get to see fantasies set in an industrial/turn of the century period. Avatar(get to see the before and after), Dishonored(magic impossibly rare, but bleeding edge tech that can sub for it from the fantasy creatures), Fable 3(An industrial nation surrounded by magic phenomena they just work around), Fullmetal Alchemist(totally indistinguishable), and the Old Kingdom series(plays with it, one country is WW1 England in all but name, and the Old Kingdom is locked into medieval. as soon as any tech crosses the border it falls apart and vice versa with charter magic.)
Pokémon has science. There are Pokémon professors dedicated to trying to learn about the setting's magical creatures and they have the ability to convert said creatures into energy and store them in balls. Cars, trucks and cruise ships exist. Guns used to exist but haven't appeared in any capacity since the banned "Legend of Dratini" episode.
glad you brought this up!
That's not a fantasy series. It's sci-fi
@@MegaPokefan97 It's science-fantasy or contemporary fantasy. Sci-fi tends to be more futuristic settings or outer space. Pokémon's setting is roughly late 20th century/early 21st century with JRPG monsters running around that have "magical powers" that the player can capture and recruit. It's literally "fantasy monsters in the modern day but the player can befriend them".
LOTR is set in a post-post-post apocalypse, where one side is too busy developing cheap iron, while the other is too busy tragically dying out. Architectural and metallurgic advancements of Second Age are viewed as unachievable marvels in Third even by people who have eyewitnessed said age. It is implied that by Fourth Age the progress is to begin moving forward again.
As for Frieren's setting, even by anime alone we can see fundamentally different course of development of tech into magitech. Anime only show glimpses, like mass-produced mavic lanterns or magic that is worked on and advanced as if it is software, but we also see that in 1000 years humans went from approximately Imperial Rome to pre-Renaissance late medieval period, so I see no scientific stagnation there whatsoever.
Unique perspective + entertaining script + ravishing voice + research = absolute hit
Some great video editing too!
Most fantasy stories go with the logic that magic cripples civilizations ingenuity
I mean it makes sense doesnt it. If magic is powerfull and common. It would make sense that people would study it rather than mechanical contraptions. Like why invent the pump if i can just conjure water.
@@herdoman5169 it can make sense, but that really depends. to use the pump example, we have to ask, how easy is it to conjure genuinely large amounts of water, how freely and consistently can people do it, and how many people are capable of that? automation is a big part of industry, even in partial terms. if the magic people are using to conjure water requires effort, resources (including something like "your own mana" or whatever) and for someone to be like, standing there doing it for a long period of time, that's already enough to drive a desire for inventions that automate at least some of the process
Necessity is the mother of invention
The father is a question: "why not"
Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe has a setting that takes place in the far future where civilizations rise and fall, and in the current civilization, it has become so stagnated it resembled a somewhat medieval setting. However despite the usage of armors, swords, and spears, the existence of aircraft, aliens, and advance firearms are still present but in rare forms. The series has an interesting blend between science and fantasy
There is always science elements in fantasy world. it's either they didnt progress much or stagnated due to so many missing knowledge that neccessary to progress because the existance of magic. even worse scenrio is when magic or church intervented the human advancement because they simply possess a threat to their influence. there is soooo many story about it already explored and it's main topic in isekai genre with the gap of knowledge between the tranmigator and the locals
I remember there is a video about why people of Rome didn't use something like wheelbarrows. But people choose to carry things on their back or head.
The reason is simple: there is no need to invent, produce and maintain something like a wheelbarrow.
You don't need science to survive day to day life. And in the place of science, you can use any kinds of traditions instead.
That's why I am fan of settings with Magitek - something that looks like technology but is fueled by magic.
Damn shame there was no Avatar in it, probably one of the best takes on magic tecnology and all, the ways the benders change architecture of cities, veicles and war machines. Ice or stons walls without entraces, gates only opened by bending air or fire, earth bender trolleys, the airbenders staffs, the fire kingdoms ballons, trains and tanks...
And to add to the realism, small towns don't really share the tecnologies from the capitals. While you see the evolution in tecnology from Atla to Korra with cars, electricity and radios, your average small town in the earth kingdom barely changes in decades.
Actual banger video, keep it coming my guy.
Glad it was to your liking!
"Why doesn't Fantasy World have science"
The local scholars, potionmakers and alchemists: Are we all one big joke to you?
Also 1:31 depending on the verse magic can either do anything or nothing, so within that range:
Holy magic cures all ailments, whatever transmutation magic can't, including possession and curses, and even boosts your energy sometimes.
Telepathy and similar thought links can coordinate large numbers with ease.
Accelerate. Boost. Force Repel. Or perhaps just get a faster animal.
Freezing food perseves it nigh indefinitely.
Now that I'm done, 21st century technology would certainly make for a great rival since it requires less cultivation of energy.
It could also be like Dune where there are personal magnetic shields that repels fast traveling projectiles with the caviat that slower weapons can penetrate the force field. So, people abandoned firearms for melee weapons.
Wouldn't grenades be a good alternative?
Use rock bullets
@@Edujs23A rock moving as fast as a bullet will still be stopped. That's why projectile weapons in Dune use munitions that are capable of slowing right before they hit a shield so they can effectively bore through it.
0:50 the most captivating experience since slavery??? That's insane
I need my freedom of speech revoked
@@samuek607 I disagree. Your madness amuses me. Keep going.
@@Inkspeed that is an inner me talking lol.
@@samuek607 you are correct slavery is indeed a very captivating experience
@@L_______ a littel bit too captivating
Most fantasy takes notes from multiple eras, so if the science of what should and should not exist is revealed, it would create loads of paradoxes.
Introduce magic, and you'd need to rewrite human history to account for all its consequences that impact scientific development.
I watched another video, What Is 'Medieval' Fantasy?, highlighting how Lord of the Rings avoids placing itself in a distinct era in history to allow multiple settings to exist simultaneously, such as Isengard and The Shire.
Subbed because of your cultivation vid and also looked through some of your other vids on the channel because of it. Your long form vids are really good, especially ones like these where you go in-depth into explaining things.
RUclips used to send me to the naughty corner for long videos, but now that I know I have the green light to go ahead, there are a ton more on the way!
I remember reading an isekai manga where they used magic to control giant mechs to fight against demons and it’s been one of my favourite uses of tech in a fantasy world. I wish more fantasy writers would do that kind of stuff.
Attack on Titan did a great job blending both. It did such a good job with the story that most people don’t realize how well the science and fantasy elements were mixed
You trippin. They explained titans origin as alien creature thing out of nowhere
@@dankl3ss194 Its fiction. The origin of the powers is a mystery and ultimately irrelevant to the story. It can be alien, or a prehistoric thing, or has divine origins, it doesnt matter in the end.
What matters is the application of it, and it did indeed do a great job at defining the rules and the nature of the Titan powers as well as blending it into military logistics in a realistic and fairly scientific manner.
@@yagoldt6195 Do you hear how dumb you sounds? So any story about anything like a medieval story about vampires can just say the vampires are bitten by aliens and the stupid readers should be happy? There is nothing logic or scientific about a random bullsht entity that has never appeared or hinted at before
If I was a writer it would be answer 1. If you want a purely medieval setting you don't have to mix it up with science.
Ngl i love it when fantasy uses magic to make their own technology like Golem servants, magic tools, ancient artefacts etc.
What a beautiful video. I was hooked by the title, and actually got answers rather than a brief discussion about fantasy and technology.
I was targeting a duration of about 14 minutes for the algorithm, but I felt like that wasn't enough to say anything meaningful. Glad my decision to flesh it out more was worth something!
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket''/''xianxia flintlock rifle''/''xianxia cultivation-based snaphance gun'' or how a ''soul wheelock pistol''/xianxia cannon could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool imo, imagine how wealthy and powerful you could become if you were the owner of a weapon manufacturer company that mass produced these supernatural firearms.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
""Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from science." - Larry Niven
"It doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works." - Terry Pratchett
I love learning and I really quite enjoy how you mix learning about history with thinking & talking about worldbuilding. Also I both enjoy your voice and your general manner of speaking. Thank yoi for making this :)
Glad you enjoyed it :)
"Literacy rates are questionable" that's one of the main answers right there. The social change to increase literacy rates is needed first. Once education becomes a standard simply by virtue of numbers and probability science will progress
The better done settings without "science" treats it's magic in a scientific way so in reality there IS science
Edit: also a common thing is that science did develop but something happened that made that civilization fall
an interesting and informative take.
The question holds a lot more weight when only certain people are able to use Magic. So for everyone you can't it makes you wonder why they never go to the Science path.
If they are allowed.
There is a novel made by the author of LoTM called “Throne of the Magical Arcana” where magic is just science and magicians can use their “cultivation” so to speak to manipulate the laws of the world. The enemy of the so called “magicians” is the church who purposefully uses information to prevent science from spreading.
Lord of the mysteries mentioned
I read that just recently! Characters didn’t really grab me much, but the plots were woven together real masterfully and they had a lot of well writen climaxes. ToMA excels at making the reader come to a conclusion and then subverting it in a satisfying yet mind blowing way. The magiscience is also, of course, awesome. Fight scenes ranged from amazing to mid
Another video that touches this subject is: [Why Fantasy Worlds SHOULD Be Stuck in Medieval Times] by {Perseus Grim} which lays out some of his reasoning as to why fantasy is like that, mostly from an author/audience POV, I suggest anyone interested to check it out after this video.
this is why i love final fantasy 6 so much, that was the first time i see magitek (magic and technology) in a fantasy setting, even if its just steampunk its really cool to see science in fantasy setting
I really need to find time to play it, I've heard so much about it here
Was not expecting a Kairos reference. Impressive!
Witch hat atelier spotted - you get a like.
Those who rule through the right of might of magic would not want their rule to be challenged.
They would suppress non-magical development aka suppress technological development.
Another awesome video. Great quality despite of what you said in the pinned comment. I love the editing and the choice of music. Script is also as crisp as always despite some slight meandering at times.
There is one explanation regarding this subject that I haven't seen anyone mention. Namely the fact that rules of physics, the fundamental methods by which the world operates, can be completely different in fantasy than they are in the real world. I mean, a typical audience just straight up ignores all 3 laws of motion any time a character moves something with their mind. Especially the 3rd one. It doesn't break anyone's suspension of disbelief and it seems plausible despite making no sense if you think about it.
Unless stated otherwise who's to say that a fantasy world is even made of atoms or that electricity can exist in it (In the same form it exists for us). There can be differences in chemistry that stop progress and industrialization from being possible. (At least the same type progresses our world experienced). Maybe coal doesn't exist or works differently, or plastic is impossible, or instead of fossil fuels dead biomatter becomes spirit stones.
This could also easily work in combination with the other arguments stated in the video. It would just mean that the fantasy worlds have an uncanny resemblance to ours despite functioning differently.
I think that we don't see this explanation because it is almost impossible to write it naturally into a story. Unless you had a protagonist that knows the physics of our world and the physics of the fantasy world and can compare them. Too bad no isekai would ever do something like that. Isekai authors would just find a way to make their characters' "comprehension of physics and chemistry" into something that makes said character OP.
This explanation is always part of my head canon anyway, when watching/reading fantasy. Why is a 200m tall monster not collapsing under its own weight ? Physics is just built different around here, don't think about it. Why won't people just invent cars ? They are impossible or just not feasible. Gasoline doesn't exist. There is no efficient power source and no way to store energy because batteries won't work. Lithium doesn't exist. This world is not even made of atoms, why would it exist ?
I think its also down to many not being interested in science, and not wanting to worldbuilding all the complexities of the world. Most fantasy worlds are just more conservative versions of the countries the authors live in + magic - technology.
Honestly I always thought the reason fantasy worlds with magic never developed Science is because there was no need to 🤷♂. As the saying goes "necessity is the mother of invention" and with no aparente reason to delve into science they just never did.
the issue is that in most examples like this, they clearly do still have those needs, and a lot of fantasy just goes "well they have magic so they don't need tech" but then we never see them actually using magic to address those same problems, we just kinda pretend that because people know how to shoot fireballs and cast healing spells, no one cares about solving the ninety billion other problems everyone has. what would make the most sense is pretty much always going to be either having science as we understand it too OR developing uses for magic that actually address those needs, whether that's through magitech or something else.
example: plumbing. i wanna see one of three things: they invented it anyway because of course they did, they invented plumbing systems using magical devices (this strikes me as generally the most reasonable option for high-magic settings), or there's some magical way to instantly and nearly effortlessly dispose of waste and that's what people are doing.
There's also the consideration that these fantasy worlds are set in earlier periods in history. We can't just assume "because they have magic, they would instantly have technology on par with ours in the real world, no matter what century they are in". There is also the fact that, even though some necessities aren't met with magic, it would be impractical to look for methods aside from magic to fix those problems. In a fantasy setting, if there WAS a need for plumbing (which there always is) they would instantly think of ways to make magic work for them, instead of some convoluted method that needs years of trial, error and refinement, as well as resources and research.
@blackban4689 I did acknowledge that I was excusing worlds that were simply in the past; I meant only to refer to worlds where tech stalled
(if you caught this and you're just explaining it to the previous comment, my bad)
Thing is they do have some kind of tech, some fantasy have Trains that use vapor and they have carriages. There is a lot of normal people in fantasy story that don't have magic, and magic tend to be for the rich and the nobility. So the commoners artisans and merchants could develop science to make their life easier.
@@kagetsuki23 Yeah you're right,b ut that also varies from world to world, some only nobility can use magic, others any one can (it's up to the author of said world)
I actually really liked the historical examples and educational bits, though I'll check out your other videos too
English is not my first language, so i have to concentrate some times to understand what are you saying, but the tone and the pace of your voice is calming. And the content is pretty cool
Well, if we're going to go this far, why do these worlds even have the same weapons, armor, and cityscapes? Outside of their walls be dragons and such, everything would be born of a necessity to combat the most pressing concerns.
Check out the powdermage trilogy it has technology in it, it is set in a Napoleonic wars kind of a fantasy world with guns and cannons and all of that and it has a really good magic system
One thing I've seen in Sword and Sorcery settings from time to time, inspired by Conan, is that things did in fact used to be more advanced, but things happened to cause massive losses of knowledge. And now, what we might see as obvious would be seen as just as magical as actual sorcery. Also, there was a story where the reason there was a lack of combustion engines was because god like figures saw some of the things in that tech tree and altered local metaphysics so internal combustion engines acted as rituals generating fire elementals, or was it rifts to the realm of fire? One of those.
But yeah, another might be that they went digital. And then something happened to make it so that all that information is no longer accessible/readable. Mostly because they lost the means to access the storage mediums for the data.
Was the story you were trying to recall 'The Fire Hunter' by any chance?
@@samuek607 Think it was a warcraft fanfic to be honest. Mostly just remembered it because they did it because they didn't want demons using that tech tree and so had to make it non-viable for everyone.
Which yeah, is another reason why some fantasy settings might not have advanced technology. Divine level figures placing consequences/denial on certain kinds of tech they don't like/want people using.
Honestly, it's one of the things I always want to see in a setting with lesser technology than us. Such places don't have to develop the same things as us, and that's the whole appeal of technological progress in my eyes. Magic-centric settings with a level of science comparable to our own wouldn't have to be solely medieval for example, they would definitely have at one point a knowledge of physics entirely distinct to our own because of its interaction with magic, even though it still unlocks progress towards certain processes that we know of today, like the nuclear.
It's a very interesting thing to explore, so it's always great when I see a work have some.
Maybe you could do a follow up at some point at the various works that combine the two genres. There's quite a few as other comments have pointed out, but you even used Brandon Sanderson's Knights Radiant in the video (around when you mentioned that nowadays we see magic as a sort of science in their own world)- he has trains, rockets, and other forms of tech in some of his stories. And Avatar the Last Airbender and Nimona come to mind as well, though admittedly there wasn't a lot of magic in Nimona, just Nimona herself
Honestly this is the same reason I gave my world magic but also "modern" weapons. Specifically percusion cap style ones with an addiotion festure of making "batteries" which badically act as a one time magic realease item whedre or not you personally can use magic that allow for elemebtal attack attridbute as well.
After coming from DnD RP origins and making my own "homebrew" (which might as well be entirely different from standard DnD by the end of my making it) mix of magic and technology.
I think one way you could have science in a fantasy world would be for someone who does not have access to magic desperately searching for an alternative out of the desire to overcome their own perceived weakness.
I agree. I brought up for rare magical abilities were with this in mind. There have to be *some* people who try make use of any resources available to try achieve something
There's this series called the "Index series." Where Science side uses Psychic powers, While the Magic Side uses magic. Fights between a Psychic and a Magician is very entertaining since there are two power systems with different mechanics clashing with each other
Magic is their science. It’s how their world works, and because it functions differently then the time is also different. But it’s also kind of weird to really put a number and a scale on development and advancement. How would we know if we’re as advanced as we’re supposed to be. There’s nothing else to compare us to. We just know if part of the world does or doesn’t have what we consider the latest and best thing invented. Even if something advanced was invented or thought of, then it would just be lost again if the it wasn’t useful enough for the people around them. Things are made to solve a problem they have with the materials they have available and then it’s up to luck if it survives. You can have made a medicine that cures everything, but it won’t stop some guy from killing you with a sword and burning your house and all of your research to ash. Magic just changes everything in the world. Maybe the medieval world of most fantasy is actually too similar to our world. It’s like they add magic into whatever time period the story takes place in. If magi and magical beasts were a natural part of the world then cavemen would also have been affected by it. Every step of human evolution would have been affected by it and so it would be completely different.
It depends on the fantasy world, some have some science. But to, its usually because magic IS a part of their science, their physics, etc
Bro is casually making these Goated videos I hope your hard work succeeds you seem like one of the more intelligent RUclipsrs so I believe you’ll find away to good profits please keep making Epic vids like this
And one more thing could you make a video on your opinion of how to make A Sci-Fi/Fantasy manga cuz it would be pretty cool
I won't claim to be intelligent, but I appreciate the compliment!
Haven't really made any videos about how to *make* manga, but after a few of the videos in the queue right now are done, it shouldn't be too much trouble to consider
Toaru Majutsu being the most perfect Science/Fantasy novel ever made:😎
Another great video.
Just leaving a comment here to say “I was here at 3K subs”.
So I can look back on this when you hit 100K subs. 😁
They have...
Science is the obsevation and notation of the natural world not the technology that comes from it.
Anyworld with magic were there are magic scholars there is science, as magic is part of the natural world and is being studied.
In One Piece there are chracters that are especifically called scientists and they research things, which includes the "magic" existing in their world.
Magic is a science.
Read Ascendance of a bookworm for someone realistically starting the industrial revolution in a fantasy world
I actually love that story, and wish I had time to fit it into the script!
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket'' or how a xianxia cannon could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool tbh
Reforged from Ruin kinda does that. With story progressing towards the centre of all-colonizing Empire there's more technical advancements too see, more sophisticated creations mixed from high tech and classical xianxia stuff. You can divine shit? Why not make a whole ministry that utilizes tech to unite minds and powers of many practitioners to spy across all vast territories of your state?
That's a reason why in my DnD setting I use only a short timespan between recent iron age and an apocalyptic war that cuts the development of civilization short. For the same reason I pushed it behind middle ages and gave a smattering of mostly magic-based inventions that enter the world gradually.
I feel that if I at any moment give the world more than around 1000 years of stagnation in the same-ish era, it will take down all the realistic elements I am trying to implement.
Concerning the plague: It also gave workers a lot more power as they suddenly were in much scarcer supply, so technologies that helped the lower classes could have more support at the time.
First off this is interesting stuff, I just subscribed and like your videos so far. I like the Fantasy worlds where Science is a thing and it does advance or alternately it regressed and the current setting is like Roman fell so we need a few hundred years to get out stuff together. Eminence in Shadow is a recent example.
I also imagine certain scientific advancments are really hard to make when your geniuses keep either getting stolen away to a mages tower, or eaten by monsters.
Honestly, this topic is why i love the guilty gear series. They don't trust science because of y2k (im not kidding), so they turned to magic, but they treat magic like a science.
wow, i always answered this question thinking that mages would be outdone by the sheer quantity of budget and time required to train one, rather than simply giving a gun to a child.
but this was truly well thought and fast paced great video !
I think you will be the only person to claim this was fast paced 😭
I just wish we see more Artillery in Xianxia worlds/Cultivation settings imagine a ''spirit musket'' or ''spirit pistol'' or how a xianxia cannon /Qi-powered grenade could be like or a cultivator rocket would function, that would be pretty cool imo...
Technology is application of science. If the world have magic eventually it would develop into its own field of research & its own form of technology. For example: In Ozanari Dungeon(& its spin-off), there are flying vehicles, flying fortress/castle, companies producing chimera(basically the magic version of biotech) but because the amount of people gifted with magic(need to help create & fuel the magic engine that is key to running or to the process of producing these invention) is limited, the distribution of tech is not uniformed with large part of some population living in medieval age, there is only 1 notable scientist trying to make non magic machine for ordinary folk because it cost money & time, with most of the knowledge & high tech facility designed around magic it's harder & less profitable for them to switch to research non-magic tech, although this mad scientist always try to run before he could walk, instead of making simple machine 1st, he always try to make mecha
Supporting argument for the first section of answer three: rome actually invented basic steam engines. They were considered useless curiocities. Slaves were cheaper, easier to work with, and more versatile. I think magic would find a similar interplay with science. Though, personally, you're more likely to find a lot of things like chemistry and physics being discovered and utilized by mages to more efficiently cast their magics rather than making machines.
Also; do you think nuclear dao would be demonic or orthodox in nature?
Nuclear dao would 100% be demonic. The radiation side-effect would be unacceptable to orthodox practitioners
@@samuek607Unless it’s fusion power… and the practitioners previously had sun-related powers.
The main reason why magic and science usually dont go together is the fact that magic breaks physics.
I mean that doesnt sound too bad until you realize that technology is all about exploitation of laws. And a way to circumvent any limits there(that are there for a good reason) would lead to a very unbalanced situation of an infinjte energy source given enough time.
In my opinion it becomes something of a huge flaw in the worldbuilding of any magitech genre as it will always have the overarching “why didnt they just” question.
Like why dont they use magic to create uranium or whatever. And the only counter to that is they dumb and dont u can do that.
Going with your “writers too lazy to do research” reason, I am in the camp that many writers mimic their favorite media without looking deeper into the nuance of why certain tropes were implemented in those works. The writer includes classic narrative elements (like magic or lack of tech) because they are cool and/or expected for their genre, but don’t consider in-depth how they would affect the development of their story worlds.
I think in general writers (myself included 😅) should study Earth history more and experience real life more to better inform their own works.
Sidenote to the above: Not every story needs deep worldbuilding, and it’s more important that you finish your story than get distracted perfecting every little detail. I just appreciate an effort to having the setting make sense on at least a surface level.
The inclusion/exclusion of science definitely doesn't make/break a story (barely matters if we're being honest), but an understanding of the development of civilization is super important for any fantasy writer to make a convincing world (regardless of how much/little is actually revealed)
I regret to inform you that this video's alleged quality did NOTHING to reduce my enjoyment of it. (yed, including the info dump)
Joke aside, the inherent human selfishness boosted by the corruption of power are probably the two strongest reasons for science in fantasy worlds to be mismatched. In the world setting I write, technology (as we understand today) is an extension of magical academy, where the "fuel" for any artifact is the very same resource that only mages get access to, giving THEM the ability to control it's advancement and spread. In the setting there is a single location with technology beyond ours, and it's (unsurprisingly enough) led by a legendary archmage who has the entire island under tight surveilance, ensuring secrets cannot leak unless he allows it.
Is your writing available anywhere? I love reading (as my channel should make apparent lol), and it sounds like a story which explores the effects of a non-earth setting on the development of societies and psychologies, which happens to be my favourite kind of story (actually read SEVERAL Isaac Asimov books over the last few months and have a hole to fill)
@@samuek607 damn I'm sorry to say that no, I have explored it over the years and written the outline but life's just been in the way to say the least. Does make me glad to hear the description for my setting compared to the big man, my library is full of his books as my father was a huge fan and I grew up reading his works!
So... what about fantasy worlds that do have tech and robots?
Either from ancient civs, like The Elders Crolls and NWC era Might and Magic games, or by advancements of some races, like Azeroth's Gnomes and Goblins tech.
I remember a cultivation novel where immortal gods were fighting with some kind of GL mechs and DBS androids, it was fun. They won
Like the chill style, favorite part is modern history comparison because I'm a nerd like that
this is why when i showed freiren to my boss at work she was like "really? thousands years past and no one really invented something scientifically or technologically?"
mind you she asked me what is the best anime right now because she really liked FMAB.. and also Freiren is top 1 in MAL at some time when i told her to watch it and so she was under the impression that fantasy world? in anime? and it's above FMA? so it should probably have the sam-- no it's not..
FMA still had magic system but it was grounded by science.
Also I like Mushouko tensei because it's only the protagonist with our education system.. applied science to their Magic system (in light novel they go indepth as to how the MC come up with his spells)
I have a setting i'm fleshing out where science is just unrefined magic and magic is the end goal. So science typically comes first and magic later. But magic is also a fundamental force of the universe and not a snap your fingers and make stuff happen kind of thing. I got the idea after studying up "real world magic" rituals and practices like Chaos Magic and stuff for writing purposes, the idea being it's not just shooting fireballs like a superhero but requires a sort of mental and spiritual quantum connection to the forces of the universe and years of training, practice, trial and error.
Sticks and stones came first and spiritual refinement and magic later in this setting. Trying to master nature with brute force to mastering yourself and your connection with all things yada yada.
Sounds like you have something good in your hands. Anywhere you make your work publicly available?
very interesting!
Just stumbled upon you today. I really like your approach and presentation. 👍
More! I'm a nerd, I love this kinda thing!
Attempting that (somewhat) with the video I'm working on now!
There are I think a few other reasons why.
Perhaps the world doesn’t operate on our real world laws of physics, but instead on something else (the world of glorantha comes to mind) which ensures that the rules governing that world cannot be exploited in the same way as in our world.
Another reason being that the real life scientific method may not be as easily discovered as we think. (In essence the scientific method is an anwser to a really difficult question, that we already know).
In fantasy world it may be even more difficult to stumble upon it.
How could a scientist from a magical world know, that the world is governed by laws and rules if a mage regularly circumvents them and gods perform miracles?
I'd never heard of Glorantha before (I'll have to give it a look), but you're right about natural laws being an explanation. I completely overlooked that.
As for the scientific method, I think I forgot to say this (my bad), but gatherings of wizards like magic towers/circles feel to me like evidence it exists. Mages dedicate themselves to the research and furthering of magic the way any reputed scientists would, I just think the difference is *where* those efforts are directed
@@samuek607 You should totally check out Glorantha it is my favourite fantasy setting ,and certainly one of the most unique ones.
I don’t think scienctific method would be reliant on real physical law at all. Scientific method is just a list of steps to acquire knowledge.
Any fantasy world where there’re wizard councils doing wizardry research would likely follow the scientific method. The expansive list of hundreds and thousands of spells doesn’t just spawn out of thin air when the first person cast the first magic spell. Spells would’ve been created, tested, recorded and passed down over centuries to accumulate into a giant list.
Let’s say we want to create a big fireball spell
Step 1 - observation/question - we need a big fireball
Step 2 - research similar - a smaller fireball spell already exist
Step 3 - hypthesis - what if we make the small fireball bigger by adjusting the material component or changing incantation
Step 4 - experiment - test the new spell and analyze the result, if it fail then back to step 3 and try again
Step 5 - conclusion - after multiple tests to make sure it’s safe and not a fluke, the “big fireball” spell is completed and can be recorded into whatever spell books or taught to others
My fav type of settings is Fantesi-Scifi or Magi-Tech just seems better overall. Especialy if there are different factions.
If you want a good mix of culktivation and scifi "Forty milleniums of cultivation" is amazing
Very interesting and entertaining video. Good job!
Saw some of your older videos, saw alot of webtoon content, would be interested to hear if you have heard or read, the warrior returns, it has some amazing soundtracks that ive never expected to be from a webtoon
1. Contempt (Either of the present or the future)
2. Changing of landscapes (Or ignorance of history)
3. Science wouldn't land in the hands of the common man but only serve to advance the ruling class (Hextech from Arcane)
Thanks for the video, this is something I keep thinking about if fantasy worlds should have science and technology separated from magic, or a combined form of both or if it should have technified magic instead of real world science. So how about this?: The advancement of science and technology in fantasy worlds should be inversely proportional to how common and useful magic is. (I honestly want to hear opinions on this because I'm not saying this is the definitive answer, just the best one I have at the moment after thinking about the answer number 3 of the video)
You had me on the Stormlight archive reference
Avatar: The Last Airbender is a fantasy series w/a magic system (bending)...and it has tech that had advanced (especially by the time of its sequel series: The Legend of Korra).
You say this is boring but I’m loving it
I hold myself to an incredible standard! You guys deserve the best, so there shouldn't be a 15 second stretch where you aren't being entertained
I don't know what you mean by yapping too much: I'm thoroughly enjoying a deep dive into the topic!
Now, by the end of a video I had a thought. This is all the reasons why rantasy worlds would NOT develop science.
But what if they did?
For what reason they would, and how could that shape these societies?
The irony of talking about aristocrats not wishing to give the commoners tools while showing Howl's Moving Castle which has riflemen and super bombers is not lost on me :D
If you haven't done that already, I think that would make for a video just as interesting as this one 🙏
They do. It's just not very advanced.
The problem is we write pre-modern fantasy worlds with the perspectives of our post-modern reality. So people in these worlds don't have electrictiy, but they still act like a fratbro addicted to his iphone.
We usually remember to do stuff like change "Hh my God!" to "By the gods!" but without seriously entertaining what peoples actual relationship to such concepts actually was, so their psycology is very out of place and can feel "anachronistic" depending on how much the historical aspect of the fantasy elements is stressed.
A remedy for this would be for education to take the re-enactment aspect of history a bit more seriously as opposed to a purely academic perspective.
Imagined:
Necromancer and their army of skeletons sitting behind desks in a room with a illusory projection of one page on a wall, so that every skeleton could see it.
Undead Printing Press.
Hey can someone give me the name of the anime around 12:55 with the earthquake sending a locomotive flying? I think I need to watch it.
Also, great video OP you explained it just like I would have but somehow better due to your precise references and sources. I'm subscribing now keep it up!