I'm inclined to believe that the original Lightbringer forged by the First Azhor Ahai was the first proto-Valyrian steel sword, acquiring its magical properties by accident. There's a precedent for accidental magic performed through sacrifice, like how Dany accidentally performed blood sacrifice to hatch her dragon eggs. Lightbringer may have been the first Azhor Ahai's personal pet project that was used in the final stages of its forging as he murdered his wife, and thr discovery of its magical properties began the ancient magical and alchemical research into forging what was later called Valyrian steel.
@@Ray_D_Tutto it's been said there were multiple Lightbringers but my understanding was that several swords and several people have been/are/will be representing the Lightbringer idea. Some more literally than others!
@@brunopereira6789 I've seen some pretty good arguments on why Dawn IS Lightbringer. Though I never got that feeling. The real Lightbringer is implied to give off heat and when Dayne knights Jaime, just like with Stannis' sword, the people near it feel no warmth. Personally i think the origin story of the Dawn sword coming from a meteor is actually pretty accurate, although it's been embellished over time like most legends. Meteor storms have struck Westeros before and it's not implausible someone saw one and followed it, then found a big chunk of meteoric iron/some weird stellar formation alloy in a crater.
ASo fun fact in Moby Dick the spear Ahab had made for killing Moby Dick was quenched in blood. So the idea of blood in forging giving the metal more properties was still around in he 1800s long after the blast furnace made steel production both much cheaper and consistently repeatable.
It certainly was a popular tale, it came up in asian records. Modern smiths thought it might be similar to using oil to quench instead of water because water causes more thermal shock. However, blood was almost certainly not used; it is mostly water. I believe forged in fire (or myth busters?) even attempted this with pigs blood to show that it is nearly identical to water. -- Slaves etc were exetremely valuable, no one would be killing someone for the sake of a sword, especially because swords were a backup weapon
In real life the secret to damascus steel has been discovered (meaning, we know how they made it at the time). There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities that resulted in carbon nanotubes forming in the steel. The "lost art" wasn't "wow we can't make steel like this today", it was more like "we don't know how people made it with the technology available at the time". But like I said, that's been solved now. We've always been able to make modern steel that's stronger than damascus. We can also easily duplicate it using modern materials and methods, that was never the question.
..... Which means the secret to how it was done is still lost, the knowlage of how on3 can do it now or even imprive it is a whole nother story then figuring out, how they achived it with conoleatlh different tools and knowlage
Yes, this is another of those old saws of 'lost technology' that are ... not lost. Pretty cool that somebody figured out this process a long time ago but we're far surpassed things like Damascus steel and Roman concrete.
@@SingingSealRiana Way to completely ignore the second half of the comment haha. The method to create damascus steel is not lost, and it's not that special, don't believe everything you hear in a RUclips video. It was just a higher than normal carbon content iron, this high carbon content made it harder to forge, resulting in the famous pattern it has, it's still worse than modern steel.
I look forward to these every week. Last week, you were late and I was sad… but then you came through and my heart smiled. Thank you for all the work you put into this content.
Hi, knivemaker here. 1:40 this is not correct. Damascus steel is well known and used method of creating steel composite. This technique was never really lost. This method takes two kinds of steel, softer and harder (which is dependant of amount of carbon inside the iron crystals). Then you will layer these two and you bend it over and over. This is what creates both pattern (lighter and darker steel) but also excellent performance (because this alloy has advantages of both harder and softer steel). Just felt like correction is in place. I really love your videos, by the way. Be well!
The thing lost is the knowlage of how they did it back then, the fact one knows how to do it now with completely different tools and science at hand dies not answer that
@@davidtatro7457 Beat me to it. The thing is that the secret to Wootz steel wasn't lost either. The blacksmiths in India made it the traditional way into at least the 19th century.
I think the “secrets” to making Damascus steel (or wootz steel more accurately) is not lost. Indeed, there’s many dozens of RUclips videos about wootz and Damascus
It is kinda lost, cause they cant figure out how it was done back then, the faft they can do it now with entirely diffetent tools and knowlage at hand does not answer that question
@@SingingSealRiana It seems like they had some good ore, and they knew how to heat it up really hot and get the impurities out and they knew how to turn that into strong steel by folding it over and over. I think that is it basically. There was no magic secret or anything, the skill was lost but it's not magic and we can do it today. We don't know exactly the process they used, okay, fine, but we know what is required and can infer that they used a method that would achieve the required results.
There was a TV program years back (it might have been Nova's "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" from 2007 but I'm not sure) which showed a Japanese swordsmith making one using the traditional methods like stacking the fuel in a precise manner, carefully watching the fire and the metal until they achieved just the right color, manual hammering, etc. Then they gave the exacting attributes and specifications to a Western metal expert and had him make a sword using modern methods like a gas furnace, thermometers, machine hammering, etc. The sword he eventually produced wasn't very pretty but it passed all the traditional Japanese proving tests for hard edge, flexibility, blade strength, and cutting ability. So the Western guy made a "Japanese" sword just not in the Japanese method.
@@dlxmarks These types of processes weren't exclusive to Japan. Folding steel to remove impurities was also done in Europe, as well as composite blades using a hard edge and a softer spine.
@@no_nameyouknowNo that is not it at all. Wootz steel is very different. As I understand it has impurities in the ore that causes very special crystal structure. They are not forged at all like normal blades. What you are talking about is ordinary folding to diffuse out impurities and that was known by blacksmiths all over. They have been able to recreate something similar but not quite Wootz steel. It is not a magical steel and modern steels are better but it is an interesting piece of history.
Honestly, my favorite hypothesis for the original forging of Valyrian Steel is that the iron (and possibly the carbon) that went into the steel comes from the blood of the sacrifices. Hundreds of souls, each of them rendered down to the miniscule amount of iron they had in their bodies for the blade they were forged into. The fact that you used the blood of the sacrificed in the forging process probably also meant that the spell held more strongly. The sheer amount of sacrifices needed, plus the likely hot flames that could only come from a volcano or a dragon, are probably what has prevented someone from figuring out how to forge a new one. Still, just a hypothesis, but one I like. I feel it would fit in Martin's setting.
it sounds like it is reference to the folk tale for quenching katana. The blood supposedly was used instead of water so the blade did not crack. Modern smiths thought it might be similar to using oil instead of water as japanese steal is poor and extra brittle; thermal shock from water causes blades to break a lot. Though blood doesnt actually work and there is very very little evidence it was actually used. - Though the myth has some romance; GRRM likes to pull on the realistic and put a spin. - I could also see a a life taken to make the blade, makes the others alive when struck > so they can then be slain
@@narutobankai I always thought myths like that were spread by sword makers as a sort of disinformation. A way of guarding their real, boring technique by making up a fantastical technique
It's only like 144 people for the amount of iron of one longsword. So, not as bad as you'd think. I also like to think since fire magic exists in asoif, fire magic was the other factor. Not just a hot fire.
@@minecraftfox4384 144 people is pretty underwhelming. I figured it would be like a mayan sacrifice, thousands of people lined up and sacrificed efficiently
I feel that the secrets of Valyrian steel will never be revealed by George. He said that he’ll never tell the details about everything that’s in the game of thrones world.
It's a steel rooted in blood and fire magic and we have legends of the creation of such to fight the Others, it's pretty easy to guess how it's made...
This would suggest that Valyrian steel predates Valyria by several millennia, given that the Long Night was 8,000 years ago and Valyria was 'young' 5,000 years ago, or that the timeline is wrong for at least one of these things
It's possible Valyrian steel was an attempt at recreating the metal of the sword for the legend. Possibly the Valyrians came by a more complete copy of the legends. We know there are similar stories throughout the world (Last Hero, Azor Ahai)
The Long Night happened around -5000 according to Martin and he said that Valyria existed at the time but wasn't the big empire that it was known for which make sense since we are told in TWOIAF that Valyria rise happened just after the Long Night, -5000 years ago...
The detailed description of how heavily worked and folded Valyrian steel is in the books reminds me of that scene from S4E1 of _GoT_ in which Ice is melted down and Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are cast from its metal. So many morons tried to defend that with the usual cop-out excuses like "It's fantasy," "It's magic," or "It's only a show" but later Benioff and Weiss admitted in the DVD commentary that this is a stupid way to make a sword but they loved the casting scene in the first _Conan_ movie and wanted to copy it.
That's a neat idea, and helps justify the material being exclusive to the Valerians as human sacrifice wouldn't have been a particularly big issue for many GoT civilizations, and presumably they also would have figured out the methods to make the steel, where that the case.
@@resurgam_b7 it seems to answer the reason why the qohoric can't reacreate valerian steel despite possibly having the knowledge to make it but only rework it.
@@jonesreviews4613 Ooh, that's also possible, though... it opens up the rather unsettling possibility of the riders purposefully having many illegitimate children specifically to later use them to create more valerian steel 😬
In the song of ice and fire, the world they exist in has many types and levels of magic. Correspondingly, different types of everything else. Steel included. Rough forged iron from the people of the wilds. Better quality alloy steel from smaller holdfasts. "Castle forged" steel from large ruling family castles such as winterfell or the twins. Then the street of steel in the capital. A mixture of talent and background as well as knowledge. Skip over the sea, to the free city of bravos and things change as well. Magic that may be outlawed or banned in westeros are practiced openly in bravos.
Man that's an interesting theory...obsidian as a component of the alloy. A metalloceramic blade would be much lighter for certain, and would be able to have a much finer edge due to the smaller crystal structures.
That Valyrian steel necklace Daemon gave Rhaenyra: it was made of some hundred pieces or so. Does that mean it took 100 or so human sacrifices to make? Honestly I can see the Valyrian nobility doing that. Sinister bling, sending out a ‘look how many slaves I can happily waste’ message. Terrifying if true…
@ True. That said, if the soul of the sacrificed is trapped within the steel (A possibility to consider and a bad enough fate already) does that mean the soul in the necklace has been divided into a hundred pieces?
I think valyrian steel is just steel with added obsidian, forging needs around 1200C but obsidian melts around 2000C; so this would explain the dragon part, you need their fire to achieve that temperature; the spells part might be for controling the dragon, not the metal. The sword has to be folded over and over to get the iron and obsidian to properly mix and blend together, this would explain the 100 days part. Lastly, you'll need to cool the sword at a specific rate for it to not end up brittle, this could be done with blood (because of course it needs blood).
@@Themrine2013 not necessarily, i mean if you forged in once in blood and spells the properties are already imbued inside; Ice-> oathkeeper and widows wail
I seem to recall that the smith that turned Ice into two swords said something about the spells now working much more effectively. This ties into the powers of the warlocks Daenerys targaryen deals with increasing, and the sudden increase in the amount and potency of wildfire alchemists were able to make. I understood the implication was the return of dragons to the world had brought back magic with them.
Hi Robert. LA has been quite stressful this week. Thx for bringing me back to Westeros. Shoutout to House Dayne (even though we lack a valerian steel sword)
7:12 I think you've overlooking a much simpler alternative here: they simply have a store of pre-forged links Ive commented before on the possible need to recover them from dead maesters, too.
while this is the most plausible answer and logical, whos to say which maester may or not try and forge it, like what if after the war of the five kings every maester wants that higher learning link (its also mentioned they have rods of valyrian steel) so I just assume a small cache of valyrian steel something that they make into chains
I always thought it was obvious how the swords are made, George put it in the story in the form of a myth (Nissa Nissa) It requires a blood sacrifice like all the magic does. Probably has something to do with kinslaying, since there's so much made of it. Perhaps kinslaying is how you Birth dragons, cast shadow assasins, unlock warging abilities, etc
In the Germanic saga of Wayland the Smith, there is a recipe for steel, which sounds Soft Magic, but it is actually Hard Science. Wayland was challenged by the court's smith in a battle of iron, a sword to be forged by Wayland against the armor made by the court's smith. Wayland creates a first sword, but is not content with the result, rasps it into small chips, mixes it with grain and feeds his chickens. Then he collects the feces, melts them and forges a second sword, even sharper. But he is still not content, rasps the second sword, and again feeds the chips to the chicken. Only the third sword, forged again from the feces, seems him sharp enough to pair it against the armor of the challenger. In the process, Wayland increases the Carbon content of the iron by melting it with the grain, turning it into steel. Additionally, the feces of animals contain Nitrogen, and thus, Wayland creates nitrated steel, harder and thus keeping a sharp edge for longer.
Another great video! I also like how this brings the Other's intelligence down a little bit. If they knew that Valyrian steel was the only way to be defeated why don't they create or contact some agents to collect all the swords.
As a part of my own writing, I've contemplated lost secrets of metallurgy, there is a modern idea for experimental future materials, meta materials, composites made with very finely controlled added elements, down to the atomic level. There is also a secondary idea about tying strings of atoms into literal knots to change the overall properties of molecules, the idea that springs to mind is that a magic could help create these meta materials, something that is lost, but would be a property unable to be either discerned or removed from the original material.
Its worth noting that despite obsidian being referred to as "dragon glass" dragons dont necessarily have anything to do with it's creation, so just because its referred to as "dragon steel" doesnt mean that dragons are a part of its creation either and could simply be the steel of the dragon lords.
I think it's because both require high heat when created normally, but dragon fire is high heat + magic, so creates the items infused with magical properties. So it could mean literal dragon fire, or maybe just a blacksmith which infused them with his own magic and named it after them.
Correct. As we've seen and heard from the characters, obsidian is a glass that can burn, generate heat like a dragon thus being call "dragonglass". So a dragonsteel must be a steel with the same properties as dragonglass, a steel that can burn, generate heat like a dragon, a fire magic blade that can kill the Others just like dragonglass and we've heard a legend about such steel blade : The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"
@@Warlock8ZEROExactly this, you're one of the only people to mention it here too. I think it's obvious that Dragons were involved, most likely to melt the steel.
If I remember correctly, that smith told lord Lannister that the steel is difficult to work with, it remembers...... something (been a long time since I last read books). My personal theory is that it's a kind of steal that remembers the properties, or nature of materials used, by magic ofc, and dragon fire being one of them, somehow the old smiths were able to capture dragon fire in steel, indefinitely. Maybe some spells were woven together to keep the fire in the blade, making the blade itself durable and ever sharp. As for it's light weight, maybe it's the nature of dragons itself, like no matter how large n powerful they are, any human with dragon blood can technically bond with them and ride them
I'm sorry if I may burst some bubbles, but as a metallurgist I have to point out that Damascus Steel is but a practical solution to the problems you face, when you don't have the technologies needed to refine pig iron into steel. When you can't treat the molten iron, because you don't have the means to reach the temperatures necessary you have no way for precise alloy control. All you can do is mix ores from different sources, containing different alloy elements. It is also very hard to get the carbon content right, which is essential for the properties of the steel. Hence you take a low carbon steel and a high carbon one, forge them together and fold your workpiece over and over. This folding is what creates the pattern. The need for all this effort vanishes, once you become able to handle molten iron and treat it in a defined manner. The smiths creating damascus blades where incredibly skilled and true artists in what they did, but modern spring steel still is superior. But this is an unfair comparison.
A couple quick notes about what they mean by folding a thousand times. First off they don't literally mean a thousand they mean that it has a thousand folds in it which sounds like it should be the same thing but it's not. They basically compound. So like if you fold something, then fold it again, then again, then again it's not four folds it's 16, once more would put it at 32. Again would be 64, and so on. The other thing is that while folding it a few times does allow you to hide imperfections in metal it doesn't actually remove them. It basically just stretches them along the blade rather than being one individual weak point. And one more thing is that folding a few times does allow your blade to be stronger however if you fold it too many times lose carbon content to the heat and oxidization meaning that if you don't supplement it with additional carbon you will end up worse off than you started.
People like bring up the Maesters and that must know how to forge Valyrian Steel and by default of a hoard of the stuff. The thing is only a few Maesters ever get that link, and they do die. Don't they just re-use the links? Or am I missing something?
What if that’s what the battle of blood ends up being about? What if Euron raids OldTown for the secret to crafting Valyrian Steel, thus the secret to obtaining a theoretically unbeatable army
Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities. Most modern sword smiths use MIg or TIg welding to make a "blank", a brick of alternating medals, that is eventually forged into a laminated blade. My theory of Dragon or Vialyrian steel is that steel and dragon glass is welded together, the magic transmuting the obsidian into something that is workable like metal. Quenching the blade in a specific blood would also lend another magical aspect.
"Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities" No, that's called pattern welding, and the pattern it produces is commonly called Damascus. It has little in common with Wootz steel, aside from both having iron and carbon.
Adding carbon to steel is a way of making it stronger. When sword making this could be achieved by using charcoal, which is derived from wood. Weirwood doesn't rot or die, it petrifies - so maybe there is some kind of Weirwood charcoal being used in the forging.
The secret to Damascus steel seems to be lost no more. Some Professors and master forgers were able to recreate it and found out, that the original ore contained traces of vanadium (0.01% or so) that made the difference.
I think Dragon Steel swords are a red herring, yes they work against white walkers, but even if you learned how they were made the cost and time would be too much to make it possible to arm very many soldiers, and GRRM is not going to have the answer to his epic be “find and build a super weapon to fix your problems”, if anything it’s the opposite of that. Weapons are not going to be the answer.
Pattern welded steel was used by the wealthiest Anglo-Saxons (there is an example recovered from Sutton Hoo ship burial). It was around before then as well I beleive.😊
I always viewed it like power wrought blades in wheel of time. They use magic to heat the metal and align the crystals. The metal doesn’t cool until it’s done. With Valyrian steel, I figured dragon fire heated it and did something when it did. I was thinking that they somehow made an alloy of dragon glass and steel which is why it’s called dragon steel
Speculation, but I like the idea that it's actually made the same as damsk/wotz steel, just with dragon glass and steel. Quenched in a dying dragons blood, maybe the bloodmagic comes in by capturing the soul of a dead Dragon and that's why there weren't that many of the Valyrian steel blades? That's my theory very simplified.
I like to think the toiling miner slaves of the freehold had some impact on the forging of Valarian steel. Perhaps the ore they mined was unique to the region or perhaps their deaths and suffering (sacrifice) left some magical imprint on the ore that was later forged. I do believe dragon fire was a key component in the forging.
While I wouldn’t put it past the Citadel to have access to Valyrian steel forging secrets, they could simply work around existing links, by opening the ones next to the Valyrian steel link, rather than opening the Valyrian steel one.
One thing I would like to know is will Ice be reforged? Will the Starks reclaim Oathkeeper and Widow's Wall, or would it be lost even if the Starks are restored in the North?
I see a lot of comments here in Damascus steel. There are two kinds which are very different. Look at “Knife Steel Nerd”s video on Wootz steel “Wootz the true Damascus?”. He has a PhD in metallurgy and explains it very well.
So the Targaryens' slogan of "Fire and Blood" may refer to Valyrian Steel. If so, perhaps the entire Song of Ice and Fire is about how to defeat the White Walkers, with the weapons coming from the Fire side and the knowledge about the enemy coming from the Ice side.
My pet theory is the modern makers of Damascus steel use two different types of steel and steel powder to help bind them together (with heat). I think to make Valyrian steel it’s the same, except instead of powder steel they use dragon glass (hence the “magic”).
Two things that might be of interest to people: - Wootz Steel - steel that was created in south India and exported to the middle east and beyond, likely the cause of the legends around Damascus steel Quote from Wikipedia: "Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase - to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword"." - this makes me think of 'paying the iron price' as a type of phrase. - Second is the poorly named 'Secret of the Viking Sword' episode of the PBS show NOVA (available on RUclips), which does look at an old Viking sword and have a swordsmith attempt to recreate it, but has a fascinating section about the trade that allowed steel from the middle east to end up in scandinavia for making swords. Damascus steel had many legends from around the time of the crusades, like it could cut a European sword in half and then split a hair falling though the air. I forget all the outlandish claims, and I do think we now have modern steels that are probably superior, but it (meaning Wootz/Damascus) was so superior to the steel Europeans used at the time, it likely did seem magical to them, especially if they saw the fancy patterns.
Is it established in the books if Dragons create dragon glass/obsidian also? (It’s is sort of hinted at in the tv series as Dragonstone’s caves are filled with it and that is where a lot the past dragons had nested.)
Just a fun theory but what if the blood part involved the blacksmith having to sacrifice themself to the dragonfire with the sword as they finish forging and then the mages set the swords with spells? And the mages teach the secrets the forging them with talented Smiths who never complete a full Valyrian steel sword so that they can continue to teach the art which was loft in the eruption
Its probably going to be another Elric reference. There are souls in the valyrian steel swords. NissaNissa is proof of this. That's why melting the throne may come to pass.
I think Valyrian steel is affected by magic in the same manner as wildfire. Remember, that the production of wildfire increased dramatically, as if magic was returning to the World and spells worked better. I think with the dragons return and hence the return of magic, we will see the magical properties of Valyrian steel come to the forefront. I think different blades will have different magical properties as well. We could see extra electrical damage on a hit.
Obviously it’s fantasy, so GRR Martin can do what he likes, but I find the ‘dragonglass addition’ theory hard to accept because obsidian etc. is heavy in silicone, which is one of the impurities that they try to *remove* from smelter iron to make steel (better). ‘Crucible steel’ or ‘wootz’ is what arms and armour historians and conservators etc. mean when they’re talking about historical ‘Damascus steel’, which has a beautiful *natural* pattern to it, whereas modern day ‘Damascus’ is produced by folding layers of different carbon-content steel, very skilfully, to make different patterns which are revealed with an acid etching afterwards (pattern welding). I feel like when George says ‘Valyrian steel is like Damascus steel’, he’s referring to wootz versus ‘normal’ steel. It’s like the kind of situation they had in early medieval Europe, where they had some very high value crucible steel swords from further east (where crucible steel was made) which were very rare, and also western steel which was still good but not *as* good (aka Martin’s ‘castle-forged’) steel, and which wasn’t wootz. Interestingly, wootz is also called ‘watered steel’ for the natural patterns in it. I realise that’s very incoherently put down though, sorry!
Just a thought/ question: Can it be that Varys' mutilation took place in an attempt to recreate Valyrian steel? Many of the ingredients are there (a slave boy, body parts in a special kind of fire, spells and Essos, Myr though and not Qohor).
Essentially Martin took the legend of Wootz steel (the original Damascus steel) and chucked it into his book, which he did with many other things from history.
Have def always thought the maesters had a cache of valyrian steel, and more knowledge than they let on about Valyria in general, hopefully with sam going there we get much more hints at the maester conspiracy being true. As for valyrian steel I am inclined to agree it for sure is forged through (fire= dragons, blood=sacrifice), the sacrifice probably tempers the steel and sets the spells inside
The secret to Damascus steel is NOT lost: it is still manufactured to this date. It is a process of folding metal during the forging process and there it develops its superior properties
It doesn't "develop superior properties", it merely gets rid of impurities in the material. Or to put it more accurately, it spreads the impurities more evenly, to avoid pockets. Given steel of good purity, you don't need to fold it, and it will be just as good, or better.
Fold forging was not unique to the production of Damascus steel, and cultures throughout the world used it. Damascus steel was made with wootz steel (a reference to a certain type of crucible process), and some of the impurities in the iron they used allowed for the development of carbon nanotubes in the steel, which added to the metal's performances. Experimental archaeology is now concerned with what additional elements were present in the steel, and what unique forging practices allowed for the production of steel that we have only outmatched with modern industrial technology. The indigenous metalworking culture that produced Damascus steel died out in the 1800's
This is incorrect. While it is correct that we probably know how to make real damascus, the folded metal is not real damascus although it is often called that. Ancient damascus is also called wootz steel, which is a crucible steel and get it's unique patterns and qualities from carbides that form in the steel. the damascus steel you're referring too is pattern welded steel, which is created by stacking different kinds of steel and then folding or cutting them to create unique patterns. In both cases etching is often required to bring out the unique patterns. both techniques are quite old, but merely folding metal during the forging process doesn't create these unique patterns and neither does it create superior properties in the steel.
seems clearer to be that rather than valerian steel being made with dragonglass, both valerian steel and dragonglass are made with the same thing - dragonfire.
So they said in real life Damascus is a foundation of valyrian steel. Besides adding in other composite ingredients. The spell component could be engraved runes laced with magical blood or dye's. Engrave the spell on ingot, place blood dye in engraving, and then fold ingot. Repeat step for all other spells. Create the thousand layers. Saw a RUclips video on different ways to make Damascus steel. Video told of prayer holy blessing being engraved while forging.
To me, the biggest question about Valyrian Steel is what is the difference between it and a sword like Dawn, which seems to share many similarities except the very obvious difference that Dawn is plale white.
There's theories of vikings calling on totems and burning bones in the kilns of Scandinavia, so bear, ox, or whatever animal where used, and it's the carbon in the bones they theorised that was actually given the steel strength. Maybe dragon bones have a magical effect in the same manor?
Since Valyrian steel is ASOif it is counterpart to Damascus steel so then unfolded steel would be called dragon steel? It might have been common enough that no one was really writing about it and by the time of ASOIF only folded ones have managed to resist the tooth of time?
Well actually I think we do know the answer to this question. It's probably a mixture of Dragon glass added to the metal, only possible with the heat of Dragon fire. The show gave us alot of hints in that direction anyway.
I wonder if in Westeros’ future (if they are capable of following along like things did in our time since their planet seems to have periods of extreme variability in weather) but I wonder if the future people could rediscover valerian steel
While the original recipe has been lost, it also has been rediscovered, it's called Wootz steel, probably a bastardisation "ukku" which means steel in Dravidian languages, to distinguish it from modern Damascus which is pattern-welded. Wootz is not welded, it's a crucible steel, having the right alloy is crucial so it could only be made if you both had the right ore deposit and knew the process, and they did it at a time where only very few civilisations had hot enough furnaces to even make crucible steel. You can find documentations here on youtube. Old wootz is vastly inferior to ordinary modern crucible steel because of phosphorous impurities, new wootz, created only with the elements actually necessary to create the patterning is a decent steel but still no comparison to modern alloys optimised for performance, not looks. I guess both aspects could be combined, at least to a degree. The notion of smiths as having magical powers is age-old, btw, for the simple reason that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To this day a steel sword that bends against a shield and then just springs back kinda is a magical sight, not at all every blade made from iron can do that, much less bronze or stone ones.
I always thought that Valyrian steel is far more advanced than the rest that was available, got impurities of dragonglass in the iron ore it was made from. When Valyria sank into the sea, the secret of Valyrian steel got lost with it. There is a real life example: damask steel, it was superior to all other steels available at its time because the ore it was made from got special properties from impurities that form a special structure in the alloy after smithing process, increased durability, hardness and corrosive resistance which is why damask steel is legendary.
I think we have to look at this from GRRM perspective as a writer. What would make the story best? I think, either blood was used in large amounts as a forging additive. Or indeed, the blade might be quenshed with murder. Why would it need hundreds of spells? Just like it has hundreds of layers? Are the spell forgers so ineffecive/inefficient? Are we just hyping the forging process? Or do these swords have actual vast magic properties? Do we need a array of spells to become dragon fire resistant? I think the killing of others just requires fire magic, or dragon fire magic. Dragon glass, or obsidian, could just be volcanic glass.... Interestingly... light, sharp, low maintenance. Thats how I imagine elven steel to be in other magical universes.
I imagine it involves killing a dragon that trust you to cool the blade you made with its own fire. It checks the dragons fire box and the great sacrifice box as you just offed a dragon that could have potentially been a great ally. It also would explain why it’s more rare as time moves forward, perhaps the lesser forms of it are from substituting a dragons trust with one’s wife or slave. Anyway you put it in 100% convinced that sacrificing something no sane person would want to is involved, I’d actually be disappointed with George at this point if it wasn’t
I expect not all Valyrian Steel swords are equal. Based on the talent of the smith and the power of the magic that goes into them there are differences between each that we haven't explored yet. I expect the legendaty Lightbringer to be the equivalent of a Valyrian Steel sword of exceptional quality both in terms of smithing and in terms of magic, as it takes Nyssa Nyssa's sacrifice to make it. I also expect the Lightbringer in our contemporary story to be a metaphorical thing rather than an actual burning sword. George likes to play around with these things and we should avoid interpreting prophecies literally.
Wait, wasn't the Long Night well before the rise of the Valyrian Empire? If so would that mean that the recipe for Valyrian steel predates the Valyrians?
I'm inclined to believe that the original Lightbringer forged by the First Azhor Ahai was the first proto-Valyrian steel sword, acquiring its magical properties by accident. There's a precedent for accidental magic performed through sacrifice, like how Dany accidentally performed blood sacrifice to hatch her dragon eggs. Lightbringer may have been the first Azhor Ahai's personal pet project that was used in the final stages of its forging as he murdered his wife, and thr discovery of its magical properties began the ancient magical and alchemical research into forging what was later called Valyrian steel.
Definitely a unique take. Always appreciate them
I like the idea that Jon is lightbringer.
Could the original Lightbringer not be Dawn?
@@Ray_D_Tutto it's been said there were multiple Lightbringers but my understanding was that several swords and several people have been/are/will be representing the Lightbringer idea. Some more literally than others!
@@brunopereira6789 I've seen some pretty good arguments on why Dawn IS Lightbringer. Though I never got that feeling. The real Lightbringer is implied to give off heat and when Dayne knights Jaime, just like with Stannis' sword, the people near it feel no warmth.
Personally i think the origin story of the Dawn sword coming from a meteor is actually pretty accurate, although it's been embellished over time like most legends. Meteor storms have struck Westeros before and it's not implausible someone saw one and followed it, then found a big chunk of meteoric iron/some weird stellar formation alloy in a crater.
Hi, Robert! This is everyone.
Interesting comment
Thank you. (?)
@@Sakumitzu you're...welcome (?)
@@Hugh-Janus528 no it's not, it's very unoriginal though
I too, must be a player o' frock.
ASo fun fact in Moby Dick the spear Ahab had made for killing Moby Dick was quenched in blood. So the idea of blood in forging giving the metal more properties was still around in he 1800s long after the blast furnace made steel production both much cheaper and consistently repeatable.
It certainly was a popular tale, it came up in asian records. Modern smiths thought it might be similar to using oil to quench instead of water because water causes more thermal shock. However, blood was almost certainly not used; it is mostly water. I believe forged in fire (or myth busters?) even attempted this with pigs blood to show that it is nearly identical to water. -- Slaves etc were exetremely valuable, no one would be killing someone for the sake of a sword, especially because swords were a backup weapon
In real life the secret to damascus steel has been discovered (meaning, we know how they made it at the time). There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities that resulted in carbon nanotubes forming in the steel. The "lost art" wasn't "wow we can't make steel like this today", it was more like "we don't know how people made it with the technology available at the time". But like I said, that's been solved now. We've always been able to make modern steel that's stronger than damascus. We can also easily duplicate it using modern materials and methods, that was never the question.
..... Which means the secret to how it was done is still lost, the knowlage of how on3 can do it now or even imprive it is a whole nother story then figuring out, how they achived it with conoleatlh different tools and knowlage
“There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities,” the secret is not lost.
I’m not even going to touch on what “conoleatlh” may mean.
Modern "Damascus" steel, a favorite of cheap knife and wall-hanger manufacturers.
If you want some iffy metal that looks fancy, accept no substitute.
Yes, this is another of those old saws of 'lost technology' that are ... not lost. Pretty cool that somebody figured out this process a long time ago but we're far surpassed things like Damascus steel and Roman concrete.
@@SingingSealRiana Way to completely ignore the second half of the comment haha.
The method to create damascus steel is not lost, and it's not that special, don't believe everything you hear in a RUclips video.
It was just a higher than normal carbon content iron, this high carbon content made it harder to forge, resulting in the famous pattern it has, it's still worse than modern steel.
I look forward to these every week. Last week, you were late and I was sad… but then you came through and my heart smiled. Thank you for all the work you put into this content.
Hi, knivemaker here. 1:40 this is not correct. Damascus steel is well known and used method of creating steel composite. This technique was never really lost. This method takes two kinds of steel, softer and harder (which is dependant of amount of carbon inside the iron crystals). Then you will layer these two and you bend it over and over. This is what creates both pattern (lighter and darker steel) but also excellent performance (because this alloy has advantages of both harder and softer steel).
Just felt like correction is in place. I really love your videos, by the way. Be well!
The thing lost is the knowlage of how they did it back then, the fact one knows how to do it now with completely different tools and science at hand dies not answer that
What he was really referring to was Wootz steel, which has nothing in common with modern pattern-welded steels, which we call "damascus".
@@davidtatro7457 Beat me to it. The thing is that the secret to Wootz steel wasn't lost either. The blacksmiths in India made it the traditional way into at least the 19th century.
Wootz Steel is the TRUE Damascus Steel. Damascus steel is a pretender claiming all of Wootz Steels' achievements.
And it’s overrated in my opinion, my best swords are of springsteel.
I think the “secrets” to making Damascus steel (or wootz steel more accurately) is not lost. Indeed, there’s many dozens of RUclips videos about wootz and Damascus
It is kinda lost, cause they cant figure out how it was done back then, the faft they can do it now with entirely diffetent tools and knowlage at hand does not answer that question
@@SingingSealRiana It seems like they had some good ore, and they knew how to heat it up really hot and get the impurities out and they knew how to turn that into strong steel by folding it over and over. I think that is it basically. There was no magic secret or anything, the skill was lost but it's not magic and we can do it today.
We don't know exactly the process they used, okay, fine, but we know what is required and can infer that they used a method that would achieve the required results.
There was a TV program years back (it might have been Nova's "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" from 2007 but I'm not sure) which showed a Japanese swordsmith making one using the traditional methods like stacking the fuel in a precise manner, carefully watching the fire and the metal until they achieved just the right color, manual hammering, etc. Then they gave the exacting attributes and specifications to a Western metal expert and had him make a sword using modern methods like a gas furnace, thermometers, machine hammering, etc. The sword he eventually produced wasn't very pretty but it passed all the traditional Japanese proving tests for hard edge, flexibility, blade strength, and cutting ability. So the Western guy made a "Japanese" sword just not in the Japanese method.
@@dlxmarks These types of processes weren't exclusive to Japan. Folding steel to remove impurities was also done in Europe, as well as composite blades using a hard edge and a softer spine.
@@no_nameyouknowNo that is not it at all. Wootz steel is very different. As I understand it has impurities in the ore that causes very special crystal structure. They are not forged at all like normal blades. What you are talking about is ordinary folding to diffuse out impurities and that was known by blacksmiths all over. They have been able to recreate something similar but not quite Wootz steel.
It is not a magical steel and modern steels are better but it is an interesting piece of history.
Honestly, my favorite hypothesis for the original forging of Valyrian Steel is that the iron (and possibly the carbon) that went into the steel comes from the blood of the sacrifices. Hundreds of souls, each of them rendered down to the miniscule amount of iron they had in their bodies for the blade they were forged into. The fact that you used the blood of the sacrificed in the forging process probably also meant that the spell held more strongly.
The sheer amount of sacrifices needed, plus the likely hot flames that could only come from a volcano or a dragon, are probably what has prevented someone from figuring out how to forge a new one.
Still, just a hypothesis, but one I like. I feel it would fit in Martin's setting.
it sounds like it is reference to the folk tale for quenching katana. The blood supposedly was used instead of water so the blade did not crack. Modern smiths thought it might be similar to using oil instead of water as japanese steal is poor and extra brittle; thermal shock from water causes blades to break a lot. Though blood doesnt actually work and there is very very little evidence it was actually used. - Though the myth has some romance; GRRM likes to pull on the realistic and put a spin. - I could also see a a life taken to make the blade, makes the others alive when struck > so they can then be slain
@@narutobankai I always thought myths like that were spread by sword makers as a sort of disinformation. A way of guarding their real, boring technique by making up a fantastical technique
It's only like 144 people for the amount of iron of one longsword. So, not as bad as you'd think. I also like to think since fire magic exists in asoif, fire magic was the other factor. Not just a hot fire.
@@minecraftfox4384 144 people is pretty underwhelming. I figured it would be like a mayan sacrifice, thousands of people lined up and sacrificed efficiently
@@Grunttamer humans have a surprisingly high amount of iron in our blood. It's the process of extracting the iron that would be hard.
The mystery of valarian steel is lost to time like the hope of GRRM ever finishing TWOW was lost long ago
But, winter is coming. 😂
@@Kennylaggins South Park's "don't worry the dragons are coming" was twelve years ago.
@@KennylagginsWinter is, winds isn't
Love these videos. Simple, common questions that don’t have easy answers
I feel that the secrets of Valyrian steel will never be revealed by George. He said that he’ll never tell the details about everything that’s in the game of thrones world.
Mystery is usually more cool than knowledge.
It's a steel rooted in blood and fire magic and we have legends of the creation of such to fight the Others, it's pretty easy to guess how it's made...
@@vladimirpain3942 Sherlock Holmes disagrees. As does Dr. Gregory House.
At this rate I'll be surprised if he publishes one more ASOIAF book before dying.
He won't even reveal the ending of ASOIAF. Ever 😂
This would suggest that Valyrian steel predates Valyria by several millennia, given that the Long Night was 8,000 years ago and Valyria was 'young' 5,000 years ago, or that the timeline is wrong for at least one of these things
And there is nothing strange about it, when you remember that Valrians were "enlightened" by someone who came from the east.
It's possible Valyrian steel was an attempt at recreating the metal of the sword for the legend. Possibly the Valyrians came by a more complete copy of the legends. We know there are similar stories throughout the world (Last Hero, Azor Ahai)
The Long Night happened around -5000 according to Martin and he said that Valyria existed at the time but wasn't the big empire that it was known for which make sense since we are told in TWOIAF that Valyria rise happened just after the Long Night, -5000 years ago...
One fanfiction I've read suggests that the sword mentioned was Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne.
@@GoranXII thats just a theory with no evidence.
The detailed description of how heavily worked and folded Valyrian steel is in the books reminds me of that scene from S4E1 of _GoT_ in which Ice is melted down and Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are cast from its metal. So many morons tried to defend that with the usual cop-out excuses like "It's fantasy," "It's magic," or "It's only a show" but later Benioff and Weiss admitted in the DVD commentary that this is a stupid way to make a sword but they loved the casting scene in the first _Conan_ movie and wanted to copy it.
5:09 a commercial interrupted at this moment, and I thought The Smiths were describing a facial cream
The exact same thing happened to me.
Everyone talks about human sacrifice but what if valerian steel is tempered by sacrificing a dragon and thats why it's so expensive?
I can't imagine anyone attempting to sacrifice a dragon....they would be burned to a crisp if they tried it.
That's a neat idea, and helps justify the material being exclusive to the Valerians as human sacrifice wouldn't have been a particularly big issue for many GoT civilizations, and presumably they also would have figured out the methods to make the steel, where that the case.
@@resurgam_b7 it seems to answer the reason why the qohoric can't reacreate valerian steel despite possibly having the knowledge to make it but only rework it.
@@resurgam_b7 my other theory is that they sacrificed bastards of great valerian dragon riders because blood has power
@@jonesreviews4613 Ooh, that's also possible, though... it opens up the rather unsettling possibility of the riders purposefully having many illegitimate children specifically to later use them to create more valerian steel 😬
In the song of ice and fire, the world they exist in has many types and levels of magic. Correspondingly, different types of everything else. Steel included. Rough forged iron from the people of the wilds. Better quality alloy steel from smaller holdfasts. "Castle forged" steel from large ruling family castles such as winterfell or the twins. Then the street of steel in the capital. A mixture of talent and background as well as knowledge. Skip over the sea, to the free city of bravos and things change as well. Magic that may be outlawed or banned in westeros are practiced openly in bravos.
Man that's an interesting theory...obsidian as a component of the alloy. A metalloceramic blade would be much lighter for certain, and would be able to have a much finer edge due to the smaller crystal structures.
That Valyrian steel necklace Daemon gave Rhaenyra: it was made of some hundred pieces or so. Does that mean it took 100 or so human sacrifices to make? Honestly I can see the Valyrian nobility doing that. Sinister bling, sending out a ‘look how many slaves I can happily waste’ message. Terrifying if true…
More like it took a sacrifice to make something as big as a sword.
Reworking into a necklace probably didn't require that much.
@ True. That said, if the soul of the sacrificed is trapped within the steel (A possibility to consider and a bad enough fate already) does that mean the soul in the necklace has been divided into a hundred pieces?
You can make a steal bar and cut it into tiny pieces.
I think valyrian steel is just steel with added obsidian, forging needs around 1200C but obsidian melts around 2000C; so this would explain the dragon part, you need their fire to achieve that temperature; the spells part might be for controling the dragon, not the metal. The sword has to be folded over and over to get the iron and obsidian to properly mix and blend together, this would explain the 100 days part. Lastly, you'll need to cool the sword at a specific rate for it to not end up brittle, this could be done with blood (because of course it needs blood).
i dont think blood was involved at all since if it was even reforging it would require blood to retain the magic.
@@Themrine2013 not necessarily, i mean if you forged in once in blood and spells the properties are already imbued inside; Ice-> oathkeeper and widows wail
Brother, your the best in the biz! Every video is a gem. Thank you for all your efforts they are not unnoticed.
I seem to recall that the smith that turned Ice into two swords said something about the spells now working much more effectively. This ties into the powers of the warlocks Daenerys targaryen deals with increasing, and the sudden increase in the amount and potency of wildfire alchemists were able to make. I understood the implication was the return of dragons to the world had brought back magic with them.
Your mixing that with the wildfire alchemist, there spells worked after the birth of Danys dragons
Hi Robert. LA has been quite stressful this week. Thx for bringing me back to Westeros. Shoutout to House Dayne (even though we lack a valerian steel sword)
The Qohorick Smiths - I was happy making swords of Valyrian Steel, but heaven knows I'm miserable now.
Ahhhhh I see what you did there
This Charming Maester.
8:37 That the sword remained unchanged is pure fantasy, for only the blade would survive, not the guard, the pommel or the handle.
if the blade properties included a powerful heat sink
it would siphon off heat on the other parts and prevent their destruction
@@RW77777777 If.... only if.
Not if the handle is made out of dragon bone
Robert
Your channel is purer than Valyrian Steel. Thank you for your dedication, discipline,and drive to deliver such rare gems to us mortals.
7:12 I think you've overlooking a much simpler alternative here: they simply have a store of pre-forged links
Ive commented before on the possible need to recover them from dead maesters, too.
while this is the most plausible answer and logical, whos to say which maester may or not try and forge it, like what if after the war of the five kings every maester wants that higher learning link (its also mentioned they have rods of valyrian steel) so I just assume a small cache of valyrian steel something that they make into chains
Robert, I am so grateful you make all of your videos, they’re so great!! We need some new ASOIAF content, can’t wait for Dunk and Egg show
I always thought it was obvious how the swords are made, George put it in the story in the form of a myth (Nissa Nissa) It requires a blood sacrifice like all the magic does. Probably has something to do with kinslaying, since there's so much made of it. Perhaps kinslaying is how you Birth dragons, cast shadow assasins, unlock warging abilities, etc
In the Germanic saga of Wayland the Smith, there is a recipe for steel, which sounds Soft Magic, but it is actually Hard Science. Wayland was challenged by the court's smith in a battle of iron, a sword to be forged by Wayland against the armor made by the court's smith. Wayland creates a first sword, but is not content with the result, rasps it into small chips, mixes it with grain and feeds his chickens. Then he collects the feces, melts them and forges a second sword, even sharper. But he is still not content, rasps the second sword, and again feeds the chips to the chicken. Only the third sword, forged again from the feces, seems him sharp enough to pair it against the armor of the challenger.
In the process, Wayland increases the Carbon content of the iron by melting it with the grain, turning it into steel. Additionally, the feces of animals contain Nitrogen, and thus, Wayland creates nitrated steel, harder and thus keeping a sharp edge for longer.
I like the theory that quenching the Steel in Greyscale infested water is part of the process.
Another great video! I also like how this brings the Other's intelligence down a little bit. If they knew that Valyrian steel was the only way to be defeated why don't they create or contact some agents to collect all the swords.
As a part of my own writing, I've contemplated lost secrets of metallurgy, there is a modern idea for experimental future materials, meta materials, composites made with very finely controlled added elements, down to the atomic level. There is also a secondary idea about tying strings of atoms into literal knots to change the overall properties of molecules, the idea that springs to mind is that a magic could help create these meta materials, something that is lost, but would be a property unable to be either discerned or removed from the original material.
Thank you, Robert.
Its worth noting that despite obsidian being referred to as "dragon glass" dragons dont necessarily have anything to do with it's creation, so just because its referred to as "dragon steel" doesnt mean that dragons are a part of its creation either and could simply be the steel of the dragon lords.
I think it's because both require high heat when created normally, but dragon fire is high heat + magic, so creates the items infused with magical properties.
So it could mean literal dragon fire, or maybe just a blacksmith which infused them with his own magic and named it after them.
Correct.
As we've seen and heard from the characters, obsidian is a glass that can burn, generate heat like a dragon thus being call "dragonglass".
So a dragonsteel must be a steel with the same properties as dragonglass, a steel that can burn, generate heat like a dragon, a fire magic blade that can kill the Others just like dragonglass and we've heard a legend about such steel blade :
The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"
@@Warlock8ZEROExactly this, you're one of the only people to mention it here too. I think it's obvious that Dragons were involved, most likely to melt the steel.
You make the best videos, Robert. I hope you are well all the best from Iowa.
As always, well done sir
If I remember correctly, that smith told lord Lannister that the steel is difficult to work with, it remembers...... something (been a long time since I last read books). My personal theory is that it's a kind of steal that remembers the properties, or nature of materials used, by magic ofc, and dragon fire being one of them, somehow the old smiths were able to capture dragon fire in steel, indefinitely. Maybe some spells were woven together to keep the fire in the blade, making the blade itself durable and ever sharp. As for it's light weight, maybe it's the nature of dragons itself, like no matter how large n powerful they are, any human with dragon blood can technically bond with them and ride them
I'm sorry if I may burst some bubbles, but as a metallurgist I have to point out that Damascus Steel is but a practical solution to the problems you face, when you don't have the technologies needed to refine pig iron into steel. When you can't treat the molten iron, because you don't have the means to reach the temperatures necessary you have no way for precise alloy control. All you can do is mix ores from different sources, containing different alloy elements. It is also very hard to get the carbon content right, which is essential for the properties of the steel. Hence you take a low carbon steel and a high carbon one, forge them together and fold your workpiece over and over. This folding is what creates the pattern. The need for all this effort vanishes, once you become able to handle molten iron and treat it in a defined manner.
The smiths creating damascus blades where incredibly skilled and true artists in what they did, but modern spring steel still is superior. But this is an unfair comparison.
A couple quick notes about what they mean by folding a thousand times. First off they don't literally mean a thousand they mean that it has a thousand folds in it which sounds like it should be the same thing but it's not. They basically compound. So like if you fold something, then fold it again, then again, then again it's not four folds it's 16, once more would put it at 32. Again would be 64, and so on. The other thing is that while folding it a few times does allow you to hide imperfections in metal it doesn't actually remove them. It basically just stretches them along the blade rather than being one individual weak point. And one more thing is that folding a few times does allow your blade to be stronger however if you fold it too many times lose carbon content to the heat and oxidization meaning that if you don't supplement it with additional carbon you will end up worse off than you started.
People like bring up the Maesters and that must know how to forge Valyrian Steel and by default of a hoard of the stuff. The thing is only a few Maesters ever get that link, and they do die. Don't they just re-use the links? Or am I missing something?
I love your Videos, your soothing voice makes for a realy nice expierience. You should do reedings for Audiobooks.
May I point you towards one of his other YT channels, The Well Told Tale. It's Robert reading cool out of copyright stories
Great video
What if that’s what the battle of blood ends up being about? What if Euron raids OldTown for the secret to crafting Valyrian Steel, thus the secret to obtaining a theoretically unbeatable army
Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities. Most modern sword smiths use MIg or TIg welding to make a "blank", a brick of alternating medals, that is eventually forged into a laminated blade. My theory of Dragon or Vialyrian steel is that steel and dragon glass is welded together, the magic transmuting the obsidian into something that is workable like metal. Quenching the blade in a specific blood would also lend another magical aspect.
"Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities"
No, that's called pattern welding, and the pattern it produces is commonly called Damascus. It has little in common with Wootz steel, aside from both having iron and carbon.
Adding carbon to steel is a way of making it stronger. When sword making this could be achieved by using charcoal, which is derived from wood. Weirwood doesn't rot or die, it petrifies - so maybe there is some kind of Weirwood charcoal being used in the forging.
Maybe the answer isjust 12:31 that plain, not a blood SACRIFICE but just being tempered in blood because water simply wouldn't work
The secret to Damascus steel seems to be lost no more. Some Professors and master forgers were able to recreate it and found out, that the original ore contained traces of vanadium (0.01% or so) that made the difference.
So what was dragon steel from the legends of the last hero? As that's pre valarian freehold could it be some sort of alloy with obsidian?
Damascus steel and is making isn't lost, its common practice in traditional forges for knife and sword making.
I think Dragon Steel swords are a red herring, yes they work against white walkers, but even if you learned how they were made the cost and time would be too much to make it possible to arm very many soldiers, and GRRM is not going to have the answer to his epic be “find and build a super weapon to fix your problems”, if anything it’s the opposite of that. Weapons are not going to be the answer.
Hi Robert!
Pattern welded steel was used by the wealthiest Anglo-Saxons (there is an example recovered from Sutton Hoo ship burial). It was around before then as well I beleive.😊
I always viewed it like power wrought blades in wheel of time. They use magic to heat the metal and align the crystals. The metal doesn’t cool until it’s done. With Valyrian steel, I figured dragon fire heated it and did something when it did. I was thinking that they somehow made an alloy of dragon glass and steel which is why it’s called dragon steel
Speculation, but I like the idea that it's actually made the same as damsk/wotz steel, just with dragon glass and steel. Quenched in a dying dragons blood, maybe the bloodmagic comes in by capturing the soul of a dead Dragon and that's why there weren't that many of the Valyrian steel blades? That's my theory very simplified.
I like to think the toiling miner slaves of the freehold had some impact on the forging of Valarian steel. Perhaps the ore they mined was unique to the region or perhaps their deaths and suffering (sacrifice) left some magical imprint on the ore that was later forged. I do believe dragon fire was a key component in the forging.
I wonder if Valyrian steel forged from meteorites and maybe lightbringer was the first one in existence?
Kinda like Excalibur from Jack whytes camulod chronicles
@ Or king tut’s dagger.
While I wouldn’t put it past the Citadel to have access to Valyrian steel forging secrets, they could simply work around existing links, by opening the ones next to the Valyrian steel link, rather than opening the Valyrian steel one.
Love your videos can u do one on dunk and egg
great video!!!
One thing I would like to know is will Ice be reforged? Will the Starks reclaim Oathkeeper and Widow's Wall, or would it be lost even if the Starks are restored in the North?
4:04 Now I want to see giant dragons forging comparatively tiny human swords with equally tiny human tools.
I see a lot of comments here in Damascus steel. There are two kinds which are very different. Look at “Knife Steel Nerd”s video on Wootz steel “Wootz the true Damascus?”. He has a PhD in metallurgy and explains it very well.
what about the sword of the Dawn?
I always just assumed they put dragon glass dust in with the steele when forging.
So the Targaryens' slogan of "Fire and Blood" may refer to Valyrian Steel.
If so, perhaps the entire Song of Ice and Fire is about how to defeat the White Walkers, with the weapons coming from the Fire side and the knowledge about the enemy coming from the Ice side.
My pet theory is the modern makers of Damascus steel use two different types of steel and steel powder to help bind them together (with heat). I think to make Valyrian steel it’s the same, except instead of powder steel they use dragon glass (hence the “magic”).
Two things that might be of interest to people:
- Wootz Steel - steel that was created in south India and exported to the middle east and beyond, likely the cause of the legends around Damascus steel
Quote from Wikipedia: "Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase - to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword"." - this makes me think of 'paying the iron price' as a type of phrase.
- Second is the poorly named 'Secret of the Viking Sword' episode of the PBS show NOVA (available on RUclips), which does look at an old Viking sword and have a swordsmith attempt to recreate it, but has a fascinating section about the trade that allowed steel from the middle east to end up in scandinavia for making swords.
Damascus steel had many legends from around the time of the crusades, like it could cut a European sword in half and then split a hair falling though the air. I forget all the outlandish claims, and I do think we now have modern steels that are probably superior, but it (meaning Wootz/Damascus) was so superior to the steel Europeans used at the time, it likely did seem magical to them, especially if they saw the fancy patterns.
I think dragon bone might also play a part in its creation, maybe used in place of regular iron given it's high iron content and black color
Perhaps Dragon forged doesn't mean forged by a Dragon, but rather forged from a Dragon.
Interesting idea 🤔
That's a very interesting idea. It certainly adds a lot of fantasy to the recipe.
Martin said that dragon bone played no part in the making of Valyrian steel.
Is it established in the books if Dragons create dragon glass/obsidian also? (It’s is sort of hinted at in the tv series as Dragonstone’s caves are filled with it and that is where a lot the past dragons had nested.)
Just a fun theory but what if the blood part involved the blacksmith having to sacrifice themself to the dragonfire with the sword as they finish forging and then the mages set the swords with spells? And the mages teach the secrets the forging them with talented Smiths who never complete a full Valyrian steel sword so that they can continue to teach the art which was loft in the eruption
Its probably going to be another Elric reference. There are souls in the valyrian steel swords. NissaNissa is proof of this. That's why melting the throne may come to pass.
I think Valyrian steel is affected by magic in the same manner as wildfire. Remember, that the production of wildfire increased dramatically, as if magic was returning to the World and spells worked better. I think with the dragons return and hence the return of magic, we will see the magical properties of Valyrian steel come to the forefront. I think different blades will have different magical properties as well. We could see extra electrical damage on a hit.
Obviously it’s fantasy, so GRR Martin can do what he likes, but I find the ‘dragonglass addition’ theory hard to accept because obsidian etc. is heavy in silicone, which is one of the impurities that they try to *remove* from smelter iron to make steel (better). ‘Crucible steel’ or ‘wootz’ is what arms and armour historians and conservators etc. mean when they’re talking about historical ‘Damascus steel’, which has a beautiful *natural* pattern to it, whereas modern day ‘Damascus’ is produced by folding layers of different carbon-content steel, very skilfully, to make different patterns which are revealed with an acid etching afterwards (pattern welding). I feel like when George says ‘Valyrian steel is like Damascus steel’, he’s referring to wootz versus ‘normal’ steel. It’s like the kind of situation they had in early medieval Europe, where they had some very high value crucible steel swords from further east (where crucible steel was made) which were very rare, and also western steel which was still good but not *as* good (aka Martin’s ‘castle-forged’) steel, and which wasn’t wootz. Interestingly, wootz is also called ‘watered steel’ for the natural patterns in it. I realise that’s very incoherently put down though, sorry!
Just a thought/ question: Can it be that Varys' mutilation took place in an attempt to recreate Valyrian steel? Many of the ingredients are there (a slave boy, body parts in a special kind of fire, spells and Essos, Myr though and not Qohor).
Essentially Martin took the legend of Wootz steel (the original Damascus steel) and chucked it into his book, which he did with many other things from history.
Have def always thought the maesters had a cache of valyrian steel, and more knowledge than they let on about Valyria in general, hopefully with sam going there we get much more hints at the maester conspiracy being true. As for valyrian steel I am inclined to agree it for sure is forged through (fire= dragons, blood=sacrifice), the sacrifice probably tempers the steel and sets the spells inside
The secret to Damascus steel is NOT lost: it is still manufactured to this date. It is a process of folding metal during the forging process and there it develops its superior properties
It doesn't "develop superior properties", it merely gets rid of impurities in the material. Or to put it more accurately, it spreads the impurities more evenly, to avoid pockets. Given steel of good purity, you don't need to fold it, and it will be just as good, or better.
Fold forging was not unique to the production of Damascus steel, and cultures throughout the world used it. Damascus steel was made with wootz steel (a reference to a certain type of crucible process), and some of the impurities in the iron they used allowed for the development of carbon nanotubes in the steel, which added to the metal's performances. Experimental archaeology is now concerned with what additional elements were present in the steel, and what unique forging practices allowed for the production of steel that we have only outmatched with modern industrial technology. The indigenous metalworking culture that produced Damascus steel died out in the 1800's
This is incorrect. While it is correct that we probably know how to make real damascus, the folded metal is not real damascus although it is often called that. Ancient damascus is also called wootz steel, which is a crucible steel and get it's unique patterns and qualities from carbides that form in the steel. the damascus steel you're referring too is pattern welded steel, which is created by stacking different kinds of steel and then folding or cutting them to create unique patterns. In both cases etching is often required to bring out the unique patterns. both techniques are quite old, but merely folding metal during the forging process doesn't create these unique patterns and neither does it create superior properties in the steel.
It kinda is, while it is possible again to create it, it is in fact lost how it was done back then with the tools and knowlage they had we know about
Superior for the time, due to its high carbon content, making it harder than other weapons, but not better than modern standards.
seems clearer to be that rather than valerian steel being made with dragonglass, both valerian steel and dragonglass are made with the same thing - dragonfire.
So they said in real life Damascus is a foundation of valyrian steel.
Besides adding in other composite ingredients.
The spell component could be engraved runes laced with magical blood or dye's.
Engrave the spell on ingot, place blood dye in engraving, and then fold ingot. Repeat step for all other spells. Create the thousand layers.
Saw a RUclips video on different ways to make Damascus steel. Video told of prayer holy blessing being engraved while forging.
To me, the biggest question about Valyrian Steel is what is the difference between it and a sword like Dawn, which seems to share many similarities except the very obvious difference that Dawn is plale white.
This theory made me heavily consider Bran the Builder being Azhor Ahai/ the last hero
There's theories of vikings calling on totems and burning bones in the kilns of Scandinavia, so bear, ox, or whatever animal where used, and it's the carbon in the bones they theorised that was actually given the steel strength. Maybe dragon bones have a magical effect in the same manor?
Will we ever get those Robert's Rebellion videos back?
Since Valyrian steel is ASOif it is counterpart to Damascus steel so then unfolded steel would be called dragon steel? It might have been common enough that no one was really writing about it and by the time of ASOIF only folded ones have managed to resist the tooth of time?
Well actually I think we do know the answer to this question. It's probably a mixture of Dragon glass added to the metal, only possible with the heat of Dragon fire. The show gave us alot of hints in that direction anyway.
I wonder if in Westeros’ future (if they are capable of following along like things did in our time since their planet seems to have periods of extreme variability in weather) but I wonder if the future people could rediscover valerian steel
While the original recipe has been lost, it also has been rediscovered, it's called Wootz steel, probably a bastardisation "ukku" which means steel in Dravidian languages, to distinguish it from modern Damascus which is pattern-welded. Wootz is not welded, it's a crucible steel, having the right alloy is crucial so it could only be made if you both had the right ore deposit and knew the process, and they did it at a time where only very few civilisations had hot enough furnaces to even make crucible steel. You can find documentations here on youtube. Old wootz is vastly inferior to ordinary modern crucible steel because of phosphorous impurities, new wootz, created only with the elements actually necessary to create the patterning is a decent steel but still no comparison to modern alloys optimised for performance, not looks. I guess both aspects could be combined, at least to a degree.
The notion of smiths as having magical powers is age-old, btw, for the simple reason that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To this day a steel sword that bends against a shield and then just springs back kinda is a magical sight, not at all every blade made from iron can do that, much less bronze or stone ones.
Longclaw is currently unclaimed too
I cant find your roberts rebellion playlist,am I blind? I miss it,it was my best valium for a long time..
I always thought that Valyrian steel is far more advanced than the rest that was available, got impurities of dragonglass in the iron ore it was made from. When Valyria sank into the sea, the secret of Valyrian steel got lost with it.
There is a real life example: damask steel, it was superior to all other steels available at its time because the ore it was made from got special properties from impurities that form a special structure in the alloy after smithing process, increased durability, hardness and corrosive resistance which is why damask steel is legendary.
If Valerian steel ends up being some type of dragon ambergris I'm going to fall out of my chair laughing 😅
The fact that Jon immediately guessed that dragonsteel is Valyrian steel basically means dragonsteel is not Valyrian steel.
I think we have to look at this from GRRM perspective as a writer. What would make the story best?
I think, either blood was used in large amounts as a forging additive. Or indeed, the blade might be quenshed with murder.
Why would it need hundreds of spells? Just like it has hundreds of layers? Are the spell forgers so ineffecive/inefficient? Are we just hyping the forging process? Or do these swords have actual vast magic properties? Do we need a array of spells to become dragon fire resistant?
I think the killing of others just requires fire magic, or dragon fire magic. Dragon glass, or obsidian, could just be volcanic glass....
Interestingly... light, sharp, low maintenance. Thats how I imagine elven steel to be in other magical universes.
I imagine it involves killing a dragon that trust you to cool the blade you made with its own fire. It checks the dragons fire box and the great sacrifice box as you just offed a dragon that could have potentially been a great ally. It also would explain why it’s more rare as time moves forward, perhaps the lesser forms of it are from substituting a dragons trust with one’s wife or slave. Anyway you put it in 100% convinced that sacrificing something no sane person would want to is involved, I’d actually be disappointed with George at this point if it wasn’t
I thought this same question the first time I watched this video years ago 😂
I expect not all Valyrian Steel swords are equal. Based on the talent of the smith and the power of the magic that goes into them there are differences between each that we haven't explored yet. I expect the legendaty Lightbringer to be the equivalent of a Valyrian Steel sword of exceptional quality both in terms of smithing and in terms of magic, as it takes Nyssa Nyssa's sacrifice to make it.
I also expect the Lightbringer in our contemporary story to be a metaphorical thing rather than an actual burning sword. George likes to play around with these things and we should avoid interpreting prophecies literally.
learned how to make Damascus steel as a teenager, its process is not lost
But wasn't that record"dragonsteel sam mentioned made before valyria was even established?
Er...the secret of how to create Damascus was rediscovered quite a bit ago. Still...not magic but pretty cool.
Wait, wasn't the Long Night well before the rise of the Valyrian Empire? If so would that mean that the recipe for Valyrian steel predates the Valyrians?