looking through a screen (obviously) it looks like there is very little cross-hatching left in the bores; they also look glazed; i reckon 1st over rings and a quick hone will do the trick; i'd take a look at replacing valve stems seals too just to be on the safe side. leaking stem seals could be the cause of the carbon build up on front piston/valves; i use an ultra sonic cleaner with a mix of degreaser, vinegar and bicarb soda to clean heads and barrels before i do any work on valves; works great; i use my pedestal drill as a valve spring press with a modified old socket cut open one side to access retainer once spring is compressed; might be worth giving the valves a lapping as well mate....you're already there anyway. Great to see a man having a go; if man can build it, man can fix it....
Thanks a lot for your advice. I don't have a lot of experience in this area. There is no cross-hatching on the bores, all very smooth looking. I may go down this route and try and keep it simple. I think oversize pistons will take away some reliability and end up an expensive exercise.
@@OzADVRider you're welcome Ian; i'm not a 'qualified' mechanic but i've been 'playing' with bikes pretty much all my life; we want cross-hatching in the bores so the rings 'dance'; this helps lubricate the bore and seat the compression rings; so we have no ridges/steps at BDC and TDC of the bores?; with the bores being well inside service limits and the pistons not scored, a light hone will restore the bores with only a few thou at worst being lost; 1st over-size rings will compensate for this; just make sure to pay attention to ring end-gap; honing stones are relatively cheap if you want to do the job yourself; there are the 'ball' hone type as well but i've no experience using them; a machine shop will probably do a better job but they know how to charge these days; honing is a pretty easy job that i'm sure you'd have no problem with; we just need to pay attention to the cross hatching we create as we move the honing stones up and down in a precise-as-possible manner; low-medium drill speed and consistent up and down is what we are looking for...and make sure the bores are spotlessly clean before we start with regular cleaning as we go; oh, i should of mentioned cleaning/restoring the injectors as part of the top-end rebuild too; Unleaded fuel plays havoc with the varnish it leaves behind; Question: do you really need any extra power with the type of riding you do Ian?; a fresh top-end and a tune will restore a few ponies without all the costs of going over-size; i think you need to factor in that you are dealing with a 100,000K bottom end as well.
Thanks for the info. Not too worried about extra power, I think oversized pistons/ higher compression would kill it. The sv cam swap would possibly rob mid range power for more top end power which wouldn't suit my riding.
@@OzADVRider good point; road cams are generally very top-end (high RPM) biased at the expense of low to midrange torque which is what we dirt riders need to get traction; more 'power' doesn't necessarily equate to going faster; many of the modern 450's with 60+HP are detuned by the pro's for this reason; yep, asking the old big end to cope with more compression and ponies is fraught with failure, especially in what is basically two single cylinder top ends Siamesed onto one crank. i think you'll be much happier with a rebuild than chasing more outright power; focus on putting it all back together with as much attention to precision as you can will see a good result at not-too-much money.
one more piece of advice if i may Ian; get a new timing chain while the motor is apart; the tensioner will stop the chain rattling but it wont address any possible cam timing issues; a dial gauge and degree wheel goes a long way to getting spot on cam timing. there's free power to be had with accurate timing.
Hi Ian, my guess is piston ring groove wear, not actually the rings. A guy here in Brisbane does nikasil recoating and did a Vespa px200 cylinder for me earlier this year. Worked well with the old piston I supplied him. Your choice on the way to go for the repairs.
could very well be ring groove wear; a good indicator is looking for any 'steps' in the groove or 'steps' on the flats of the rings; measuring ring 'installed' end gap with the rings perfectly perpendicular in the bore (25-30mm down from TDC) is how to measure ring wear; out of curiosity, did you get your old piston coated as well as the cylinder?
It made fitting the replacement engine easier. I could pivot one side up, get a bolt in then pivot the other side up. Makes it a lot easier to work on too.
Wow, great job! For 130k the motor seems in good nick, good old Japanese engineering eh? Looking forward to seeing what you do with the trusty 650... Time for a 450MT perhaps?
If I was looking for a new bike the 450mt would be on top of the list. Spent a lot of time getting my V-Strom just right. The engine was in better nick than expected, hopefully I can give it a new lease on life and get another 130k out of it.
@@OzADVRider New isn't always better Ian; you've spent a great deal of time and effort developing what appears to be a great off-road steed...and it's one-of-a-kind and you know it inside out; it's going to be interesting to see how long the 450MT's engines last before needing a rebuild; i've also read there is big wait for getting parts for (all) the CFmoto's which is part of the reason i changed my mind about getting one...3 year warranty is great but how long will any bike that does get an issue have to sit in a workshop for?.
@@OzADVRider as i've just learned from Baz, the 450MT tracks the rider everywhere he/she goes; the software app that owners need to download to fix the fuelling issue remotely accesses the ECU directly or via the Dash and feeds information to the App in real time; this App is alerting owners that the bike is being moved even while they are only working on it in their sheds; the sensitivity is off the charts; i don't know if the App 'talks' to the ECU or the Dash; i suspect it connects to the dash going by all the information displayed on Baz's phone; i for one don't want to be tracked by big brother and i am so glad that i changed my mind about buying one; keep frankenstrom mate; big brother can't interfere with what he can't see.
@markhills3922 interesting. I like the idea of updating the ecu easily but not the tracking. I wonder if it knows if you do any aftermarket tuning. Possibly voiding warranty ?
looking through a screen (obviously) it looks like there is very little cross-hatching left in the bores; they also look glazed; i reckon 1st over rings and a quick hone will do the trick; i'd take a look at replacing valve stems seals too just to be on the safe side. leaking stem seals could be the cause of the carbon build up on front piston/valves; i use an ultra sonic cleaner with a mix of degreaser, vinegar and bicarb soda to clean heads and barrels before i do any work on valves; works great; i use my pedestal drill as a valve spring press with a modified old socket cut open one side to access retainer once spring is compressed; might be worth giving the valves a lapping as well mate....you're already there anyway. Great to see a man having a go; if man can build it, man can fix it....
Thanks a lot for your advice. I don't have a lot of experience in this area.
There is no cross-hatching on the bores, all very smooth looking.
I may go down this route and try and keep it simple.
I think oversize pistons will take away some reliability and end up an expensive exercise.
@@OzADVRider you're welcome Ian; i'm not a 'qualified' mechanic but i've been 'playing' with bikes pretty much all my life;
we want cross-hatching in the bores so the rings 'dance'; this helps lubricate the bore and seat the compression rings;
so we have no ridges/steps at BDC and TDC of the bores?; with the bores being well inside service limits and the pistons not scored, a light hone will restore the bores with only a few thou at worst being lost; 1st over-size rings will compensate for this; just make sure to pay attention to ring end-gap;
honing stones are relatively cheap if you want to do the job yourself; there are the 'ball' hone type as well but i've no experience using them; a machine shop will probably do a better job but they know how to charge these days; honing is a pretty easy job that i'm sure you'd have no problem with; we just need to pay attention to the cross hatching we create as we move the honing stones up and down in a precise-as-possible manner; low-medium drill speed and consistent up and down is what we are looking for...and make sure the bores are spotlessly clean before we start with regular cleaning as we go;
oh, i should of mentioned cleaning/restoring the injectors as part of the top-end rebuild too; Unleaded fuel plays havoc with the varnish it leaves behind;
Question: do you really need any extra power with the type of riding you do Ian?; a fresh top-end and a tune will restore a few ponies without all the costs of going over-size; i think you need to factor in that you are dealing with a 100,000K bottom end as well.
Thanks for the info.
Not too worried about extra power, I think oversized pistons/ higher compression would kill it. The sv cam swap would possibly rob mid range power for more top end power which wouldn't suit my riding.
@@OzADVRider good point; road cams are generally very top-end (high RPM) biased at the expense of low to midrange torque which is what we dirt riders need to get traction; more 'power' doesn't necessarily equate to going faster; many of the modern 450's with 60+HP are detuned by the pro's for this reason;
yep, asking the old big end to cope with more compression and ponies is fraught with failure, especially in what is basically two single cylinder top ends Siamesed onto one crank.
i think you'll be much happier with a rebuild than chasing more outright power; focus on putting it all back together with as much attention to precision as you can will see a good result at not-too-much money.
one more piece of advice if i may Ian; get a new timing chain while the motor is apart; the tensioner will stop the chain rattling but it wont address any possible cam timing issues; a dial gauge and degree wheel goes a long way to getting spot on cam timing. there's free power to be had with accurate timing.
Well done.
Witing for the next video.
Cheers.
Cheers mate!
Hi Ian, my guess is piston ring groove wear, not actually the rings. A guy here in Brisbane does nikasil recoating and did a Vespa px200 cylinder for me earlier this year. Worked well with the old piston I supplied him. Your choice on the way to go for the repairs.
Thanks mate! All advice is appreciated. More options to think about.
could very well be ring groove wear; a good indicator is looking for any 'steps' in the groove or 'steps' on the flats of the rings; measuring ring 'installed' end gap with the rings perfectly perpendicular in the bore (25-30mm down from TDC) is how to measure ring wear;
out of curiosity, did you get your old piston coated as well as the cylinder?
@@markhills3922 no just the cylinder. It was not a standard set-up. Pinasco 215 big bore kit.
Good work. It will be intresting to see the end result 🇧🇻☕
Love the engine cradle Ian. Well worth the effort.
It made fitting the replacement engine easier. I could pivot one side up, get a bolt in then pivot the other side up.
Makes it a lot easier to work on too.
Great video Ian ride safe
Thanks mate!
Wow, great job! For 130k the motor seems in good nick, good old Japanese engineering eh? Looking forward to seeing what you do with the trusty 650... Time for a 450MT perhaps?
If I was looking for a new bike the 450mt would be on top of the list.
Spent a lot of time getting my V-Strom just right.
The engine was in better nick than expected, hopefully I can give it a new lease on life and get another 130k out of it.
@@OzADVRider New isn't always better Ian; you've spent a great deal of time and effort developing what appears to be a great off-road steed...and it's one-of-a-kind and you know it inside out;
it's going to be interesting to see how long the 450MT's engines last before needing a rebuild;
i've also read there is big wait for getting parts for (all) the CFmoto's which is part of the reason i changed my mind about getting one...3 year warranty is great but how long will any bike that does get an issue have to sit in a workshop for?.
Entonces cambias pistones ?
Haven't decided what to do yet.
Can my bike be next??? Don't want to assume to know what you'll end up doing... BUT.... cough 😮💨 cough 😮💨 MT-450 Cough 😮💨 cough 😮💨 🙂
If I get this engine back together the V-Strom will be staying for a long time. I do like the 450MT but not enough to get rid of Frankenstrom
@@OzADVRider getting rid of the frankenstrom would be sacrilege! :-)
@@OzADVRider as i've just learned from Baz, the 450MT tracks the rider everywhere he/she goes; the software app that owners need to download to fix the fuelling issue remotely accesses the ECU directly or via the Dash and feeds information to the App in real time; this App is alerting owners that the bike is being moved even while they are only working on it in their sheds; the sensitivity is off the charts; i don't know if the App 'talks' to the ECU or the Dash; i suspect it connects to the dash going by all the information displayed on Baz's phone;
i for one don't want to be tracked by big brother and i am so glad that i changed my mind about buying one;
keep frankenstrom mate; big brother can't interfere with what he can't see.
@@OzADVRider you Will get the engine back together Ian; if you need or want a free hand, let me know.
@markhills3922 interesting. I like the idea of updating the ecu easily but not the tracking. I wonder if it knows if you do any aftermarket tuning. Possibly voiding warranty ?