Is the ZWO 2600MC DUO the Future? I hope so!
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- Опубликовано: 8 май 2023
- Is the future duo or is this a passing phase? There has actually been a lot of debate on this on the forums. In this video I broke down the three main points and I discuss both the history and the current state of affairs as it correlates to these issues. I personally hope this type of imaging system is a success because it will lead to future innovation in the future.
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I have ordered a duo. I use a 220 guide-camera, on which it is based. If anything can do the trick, it is the 220.
Interesting view I still think using a narrow band filter will make guiding hard I think ZWO say it will work using a 7nm dual band under good sky conditions from what I've heard. I already know about the SBIG camera to as I had one but it was so old even to run it I would have needed a pc from the 90's as it were pre USB & some sort of archaic software for it to run so it never got used. I know sensors have improved over the years but I'm still holding out some reservations on the concept.
I do also image with a RASA 11 & I've never failed to find stars with it yet but I do use the standard NBZ filter at 12nm so it could work with it, however the 2600MC pro & I'm guessing the duo have a larger form factor than the Altair 26C that I use so leaves a smaller obstruction in front. I'll definitely be watching to see how they perform but I can't see me buying one anytime soon especially if a company can manufacture a narrower bandpass filter to shoot at F2 with no halos as I'll be up for buying those.
Clear skies!!
I had an SBIG ST2000XM dual sensor OSC camera back in the day. It worked really well. Although back then I wasn't shooting through filters. Once in a great while I would have trouble finding a decent guide star, but rotating the camera would solve that. It will be interesting to see what people experience with the new Duo once they start using them.
This one I think you will like then because it can guid through some pretty narrow filters.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel If I hadn't got the ASI2600MC Pro last year, I might consider it.
@@astrodug Cannot fault you there :)
Excellent analysis.
I've tried using an OAG with my Stellarvue 102T with the .74 reducer (f/5.25). It's hard to find decent enough stars in quantity and not overlap the APS-C camera. And that's with the OAG in front of the wheel, so in a slightly larger light cone. As it is, I end up guiding off of coma stars, and that's with the OAG prism just barely outside the main sensor area. (This is a ZWO OAG-L)
Given that is a modern scope with (when not reduced) a larger than average clear aperture, and I've seen many others in this size range with similar specs, I wouldn't say that the imaging circle is big enough for many faster scopes in common aperture sizes. When you have a reducer installed, it makes it much more challenging to get usable stars on an OAG or OAG-like sensor. When you don't have a reducer, capturing stars takes longer.
The nice thing, of course, is no worries about flexure. But for reduced apos in popular sizes, it's tough. Similarly, those f/10 big scopes are likely to have a different set of issues with finding sufficient stars quickly enough.
But for scopes where this would be compatible, it's a great solution. The challenge will be for folks to figure out if it will work before purchasing the camera. That's hard to do without someone else doing the legwork to save you the money (or return processing).
Looks like ZWO wants to send me one of these to try out. I'll be sure to test some things with a focal reducer. I can see how a 0.74 reducer might make it hard for you to get stars with an OAG. Especially if that focal reducer is only 2in to begin with. I know a lot of those were.
That scope rusting in the fog out there … epic ! 😂
Least it was not raining :)
8:57 I think multiple output streams from a single sensor are the *real* future of off-axis guiding -- but how long will it take before we have it?
Yes it would be. An you could probably customize the size of each area too based on how the architecture works.
Interesting video and opinions. Are you holding out for some solar photography whilst you record this video? 😀
I ordered one, mainly because I already wanted to upgrade to a larger sensor than my ASI294MC anyway. The deciding factor was that I don’t have to use the guiding sensor - I can set up a guide scope or OAG and use that - you don’t really pay a premium for the DUO feature anyway, so it’s worth a try.
Let me know how it goes. ZWO wants to send me one to try out so I will probably do some testing on the channel soon.
I started the hobby last year. Started with a Canon EOS Rebel T7i, Tripod and Intervelometer. Very shortly after that I fell right in with a HEQ5 Pro, Guidescope, and Guidecamera, and ASIAIR Plus. The first night I used it was great. I had almost zero issue getting it going and setting up dithering. I was actually surprised at how long it would take the guiding to settle before it would start back up again. Regardless, I got a night of imagine done. Every night after that I've had to turn autoguiding off due to some really bizarre issues such as star trails appearing but then disappearing after I turn autoguding off. It actually turned out way better without autoguiding than with. Now with the ASI2600MC DUO coming out, I've made the upgrade from my unmodded DSLR and in June should have the DUO
All this to say, If having a dual sensor camera can help resolve some of my issues and rule out pieces of hardware being the problem, I'm all for it.
Sounds as though maybe calibration was off? If you take your guid scope apart and put it back together each session you have to recalibrate it. For this reason I virtually never take my gear apart and only have to do calibration of guiding every 4-5 months.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel I think I definitely did take it apart after each time I used it but also, at the start of each session I would recalibrate because my new-to-astrophoto smooth-brain thought it had to be done each time. LOL.
So how will that work for the DUO since both sensors are on the same imaging train and focus will need to be done each night? Does that mean I'll just have to continue to recalibrate each session?
Interesting thoughts about the transmission lines 🤓
Thanks. ZWO hinted to me at NEAF that they were working on something like it.
Love the aesthetic of the video. Nice one!
Thank you. My family loves living in the country now. It's so good for our sanity.
SBIG had a whole line of dual sensor cameras. They used a prism or mirror to get the guiding sensor further away physically, but right next to the main sensor optically. I had one. It worked well for the time. These were the dominant cameras of choice at their time. They were successful. They had a patent on this. It has run out. But what hurt SBIG is competitive landscape - cheaper cameras from China, etc. The filter issue (both sensors see through the same filter) was a problem. Does ZWO solve this somehow? I don’t see that, but haven’t studied the ZWO dual sensor camera. Personally, a seperate guide camera is more flexible. You can use guide scope or off-axis adapter. You can use DSLR, mirrorless, or dedicated/cooled CCD camera. You can upgrade camera and keep using your old guide camera. So I’m sticking with dedicated guide camera.
I am aware of the prism pick off cameras SBIG made. But did not adress them, though I thought about it, because they are really not the same thing.
Sticking to old guid cameras seams like a waist to me. The new ones are so much better. Even a guid camera from just 5 years ago is inferior in a lot of ways and would not keep pace with your imaging camera. Also upgrading a guid camera is a lot less $$ than the main imaging system.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel Sure, agreed. I didn’t really mean “sticking with old guide camera”. I mostly meant you could upgrade imaging camera without upgrading guide camera. And, although I didn’t say it, I should have mentioned upgrading guide camera without upgrading imaging camera.
@@swagonman I get what you mean. I know I switch guid cameras and imaging cameras all the time on my stuff. Sometimes it a game mounts. Which I seem to not have enough of these days.
The ZWO filter drawer with a 2" filter seems too small and seems to cover some of the guide sensor. Any experience with that?
I do not have any experience with it. I hear the Sharpstar version is better.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel Thanks for the super quick response!
What infrared pass filter did you get? Thanks
None that I know of. I always ask for a clear window on my cameras.
I rewatched this video just because I love how it was shot.
Thanks. I do love the fog too. I get a lot of it here in the mornings.
I am not able to find guidestars most times with DUO and Edge 8 and 0.7x reducer. hardly one or two blurry instable stars, and loses quite often. not able to even calibrate at times. focus on main camera is tact sharp. tried increasing gain and exposure no luck. tried turining fine focus knob of DUO no luck. am trying on galaxies such as whirlpool, bode's and cigars. can you (or anyone else on this thread) help what am i missing please
The edge with a reducer has an image circle large enough only for 43rds. So to put a sensor that needs a 35mm (135 format)image circle its not surprising that this is an issue. I would remove the reducer. If stars are misshaped that will not matter.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel Thank you. but wouldn't working at F10 make the guide stars even lesser as the FoV would be narrower, and the image train lot slower?
I've ordered one, I use a 294MC Pro for OSC and 2600MM Pro for mono so thought I'd upgrade my OSC with the new Duo. I'll keep my OAG (with 294MM and 120MM) for now but if the guiding works on my Edge 9.25 (with reducer and HyperStar) then I might just let the 120MM go and remove the OAG.
I live in West London, Bortle 8-9 so I need L-Ultimate and NBZ filters for most of my OSC so it's going to be interesting. I figured if it doesn't work as well as the OAG or instead of then I've just got a great OSC upgrade for my 294MC.
Re your comments on the idea of using sub-sections of the existing sensor for guiding, I've often though that would be cool as you could have potentially a sub-grid of lower resolution sensors behind the main sensor. However, you'd need to use the whole sensor because using a section would end up heating the sensor in one part and even a cooled sensor would create a noise and potentially colour gradient. This Duo is a step in the right direction, I figured it was a pretty easy step for me so stay tunes, when it arrives I'll let you know.
BTW, in about 2 weeks in London we don't get astronomical night until early August so it may be a while.
OH man you need a mono camera. With that you could shoot Ha and Sii during those months.
Yes I did think about the difference in heat that would be a result of the sensor heating up in one section more than another. I bet it would mean taking darks to compensate while the guid section is going. But again that is software stuff and easily solved. And since you are coming from a 294 with that amp glow you already have experience with that.
I would like to hear your results though. And ZWO did tell me there are working on a filter that will not obstruct the guid camera. Should be exciting times ahead at any rate. And would also explain why that made the second camera focusable independently.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel I have a 2600MM Pro with full LRGB and 3nm SHO. I use the OSC mostly on my HyperStar as filter wheels are obviously impractical. For that I have the NBZ UHS filter due to the fast f 2.2 ratio.
The main issue in the summer months is that it’s still sunny at 9:30pm and you can’t even polar align until 11pm. By the time it’s dark enough to see a few stars it’s midnight you have about 2 hours of twilight in Bortle 8-9 and the sun’s shining at you shortly after 4am.
We do get 14 hour nights in the winter though :-)
@@johntdavies I have a video that will help you out a lot. ruclips.net/video/wxONOFshoU4/видео.html
well done
Thank you.
Truth!
Even an at 800 mm with a state of the art guide camera using an Off axis guider with no filter it is hard to find a guide star, I have 2 SBIG cameras with dual sensor, and never used the internal guider for exactly what you said, I think the DUO would be good for short focal length only or broadband only. This is my opinion until proven wrong. The filters you talk about don’t exist right now. I recommend folk do some more research before jumping on the DUO bandwagon especially if the have never used any of the following : an OAG , Narrowband filters or longer focal length
Most new users I hope would choose shorter focal lengths. That this camera is good for the novice goes hand in hand.
I just got one and it does NOT work at F8 at 2000mm narrowband
What is your scopes image circle size? And what kind of scope is it?
@@TheNarrowbandChannel it is a CDK 12.5 with 52mm image circle. I tried PHD subs of 1-8 sec and increased gain to “high” to no avail. Filter was L-ultimate (3nm dual band)
@@samberrada9647 So I tested with a filter twice as wide. That means my f10 tests would equal yours at f7. You should need around 2sec exposures. Use gain 350. This camera likes high gain. I would also question the claimed image circle size. A lot of times manufacturers overstate them. Secondly you are using a rather large scope Really if you're using some that serious you should get a mono camera. Your waisting a lot of your optics potential using a OSC>
I think you need a fog filter! Lol!😂 Just kidding. Great job on the video!
Thanks. It was a beautiful morning and I love landscape imaging in the fog. We get a lot in the mountain valley.
Ice landscape and fog ben. Don’t envy you.😅
It was clear 30 min before I started lol. Made or a nice moody background though.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel true, the mood and feel was nice. Sort of envied you being able to live in such a beautiful place.
@@druid6605 Thanks. We do love our new place in the country.
No, not in its current format/incarnation, not while you can't use it with a 3nm narrowband filter like the L-Ultimate
I have good news then. ZWO did contact me and said they are going to work on some of the things I mentioned in the video that would perhaps even make using such filters easy for anyone.
I have no use for it after looking… Not so sure guide cameras even modern ones are sensitive enough in all situations, on long focal length scopes at higher f-ratios with very few stars to begin with it can be challenging even the lasted and greatest… When you trying to image at the very limits the faster guide corrections matter which lowers the exposure to 1 or maybe even half a second… For a litttle APO with very wide tolerances you might not even notice the guider wasn’t working… I don’t think technology is heading the way you think, astrophotography is a niche market that relies on the table scraps from big consumer electronics. Canons photon avalanche sensor with near 100% QE and zero noise are what I’ll be waiting on. Perhaps stacking and dithering on the chip which already exists….
You should be doing guid exposure of at least 2s. For many instances I use 3-4s. 100%qe won't ever happen. Maybe 95 but that is about it. That is only a 5% improvement though. Really lower read noise will be the frontier to improve.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel 100% QE has already happened, longer exposures don't work at 3000mm sorry . And you need 0.5 seconds with modern mounts to keep them on track. You're used to small scopes I think where it's easy and everything just works...
@@robertw1871 Your talking observatory grade stuff. Totally different kind of animal. Anyone with a scope that large would not ever consider an OSC camera. For those MONO is king and will remain so for a long time.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel I'm actually talking about consumer level stuff, I've got scopes that apply, many of us have big SCTs and RCs. The Canon sensor is still under research and development but It'll be a consumer production in the next year or two... So on a big RC at f/8 I can tell you that the guide cameras could still be more sensitive...
@@robertw1871 Have any links to these 100% qe sensors? I think that is impossible. maybe reaching 98% but even then that would be tuff. The micro lenses alone would reject at least 2% not to mention there is always latency in the silica itself relative to its response curve based on wavelength frequency optimization.
Mark my words this will not sell very well and or once people do buy this ZWO 2600MC Duo will be sold as used... Plus will go on sale due to low sales... Just my 2 cents...
We will see. I hope not mainly for the hobby health.
It’s useless for mono
Mono is still the king for sure.