Watch BEFORE Upgrading your Astro Camera!! Comparing Sensor tech from 2010 and 2018!
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- Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2023
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Equipment in video
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Cable Organizer ASIAIR Mini: www.etsy.com/listing/1416774277
Cable Organizer ZWO Cameras: www.etsy.com/listing/985038855
EAF Mount and belt drive for Redcat: www.etsy.com/listing/1163871474
Home page with other adapters (for QHY, other ASIAIR, etc.): www.etsy.com/shop/SmartCompon...
Touptek Camera with IMX571: tinyurl.com/mr2yhvcw
Ogma version for US customers: getogma.com/products/AP26CC (use coupon CUIV for a small rebate)
ZWO ASI071MC Pro: bit.ly/3QrAtPl
ZWO ASI2600MC Pro: bit.ly/3FMNLkS
Redcat 51 II telescope: bit.ly/439wf3E
Askar V telescope: bit.ly/3Imoq2M
ZWO AM5 mount: bit.ly/3Qb5xVf
ZWO ASIAIR Mini: bit.ly/3OiGlv5
Mele Quieter 3 mini computer: amzn.to/47gNS3N
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Capture details
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To be clear about the comparison:
- IMX071 used gain 90 (unity gain), IMX571 used gain 100 with high conversion gain
- UVIR cut filter only
- 25 flat frames and 50 bias frames for each
- Stacking methodology and weighing was exactly the same
- 300x60s frames each
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My equipment
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ZWO Seestar S50: tinyurl.com/3n62hpzx
Cooled camera: tinyurl.com/mr2yhvcw
Other cooled camera: tinyurl.com/3z54r5bs
SW Quattro 150P Budget Newt: bit.ly/3BABCxl
Backyard Universe upgrade kit: tinyurl.com/3juwm5sz
OCAL Collimator: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dmu... or s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dc6...
Askar V Modular Telescope: bit.ly/3Imoq2M
or bit.ly/3GLuyR8 or tinyurl.com/2h758bvt
ZWO AM5 Mount: bit.ly/3Qb5xVf or bit.ly/3JeVUkn
iOptron CEM70: bit.ly/431Ii2U (successor of my mount)
MiniGuideScope: bit.ly/3MyUJhn
Antlia ALP-T highspeed filter: bit.ly/42RBR2e
Celestron C6: bit.ly/3ocePVs
Hyperstar C6: starizona.com/products/hypers...
Mini Computer (newer version): amzn.to/3LQTgTJ and amzn.to/3K6x2vy
AstroPC Pro: astro-gadget.net/gadgets/astr...
Cable management: www.etsy.com/shop/SmartCompon...
IDAS GNB filter: idas.uno/space/en/IDAS/gnb.htm
Flocking paper/Felt paper: amzn.to/3zASgvu or amzn.to/3m94zwa
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Affiliate Links
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Agena Astro Affiliate Link: bit.ly/3Om0hNG
High Point Scientific affiliate link: bit.ly/3lReu8R
All-Star Telescope: bit.ly/3SCgVbV
Amazon: amzn.to/3hTB5Ne
Dwarf 2 Smart Telescope: bit.ly/3SyChXu
Seestar S50: tinyurl.com/3n62hpzx
Follow me!
My Instagram: / cuivlazygeek
My Facebook page: / cuivlazygeek 
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What are your thoughts on this?
If you want to support me, buying anything from the links in the description (including Amazon!) helps!
Good point for the video, but I would do a new test on a faint nebula, M31 is a lot bright!
I should be working on my semester final project instead I am watching a french man on his balcony in Japan talk about specially treated silicone and how the market is manipulating us
Yeah well... Who needs an education? AI will be doing it all soon enough and we can all become uneducated couch potatoes... JK.... 😜
I'm supposed to be doing accounting for my business!
I'm so sorry to be wasting your time :p good luck with your project!!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek oh no I actually had fun watching this. Thanks for making such content. The results were pretty interesting
Were you tied to a chair in front of the video by someone? 😒😒
The consumer society and instant gratification drives the rules of the game. I have to restrain myself often with the thought I don't really need that thing as the equipment I already have is good enough and underutilised
That final image was sweet. I really like your editing. You don't overdo it and the end result looks great!
Thank you for the interesting comparison. I'm using 2600MC and it's been treating me well, but clearly older tech works too 😊
Thanks so much! Yes I tried to keep the processing reasonable and not overcook it! The 2600MC and the IMX571 cameras are really the gold standard these days!
Swap cameras & doit again!
That would level the field.
Good idea :)
Hey mate! - This is a really important video I think, we all get swept up in hype at times and feel we need the latest and greatest, but demonstrations like this help to show us that the cameras of yesterday aren't just suddenly irrelevant if the price is right! :-) Cheers!!
Well said Luke! Cheers mate!
Great insight into how the old tech still holds its own and provides excellent value for money, my 1600mm is fabulous and produces amazing images at a fraction of the cost on a new sensor. Thanks Cuiv
Exactly! Enjoy the 1600MM :)
Hi Cuiv,
I too have the 071 MC Pro and the IMX571 but that one is the Player One Poseiden mm. I did notice that on your 071 when zoomed in, some of the stars were square-shaped while in comparison to the 571, those same stars were round. That makes me feel better about investing in the Poseidon, knowing the stars are all basically round. Great comparison.
- Patrick -
It has to do with the sampling (e.g. the larger pixels), it can be all but eliminated with drizzling or simply using a longer focal length, but I chose not to in this video as then the quality of dithering would also start affecting the final images even more :)
Very nice, Thanks for the vid! I really like my ASI2600MC coupled with the Askar FRA400 sitting on the AM5. Super sharp, great tracking.
That's an awesome rig, enjoy it!
Great comparison! I've noticed similar differences between my ASI1600MM and the much newer ASI294MM. Over all the 294mm gives better results.. especially when pixel peeping but looking at the images as they are meant to, its hard to see a difference. I think software has come a long way to narrow the performance gap of the cameras too. Clear skies!
Thanks! And very true in terms of the software advances closing the gap :)
The difference is insignificant, great review Cuiv.
My 071 MC camera is still doing very good images. I think it still holds because processing software tools are becoming better and better.
Noise differences with the 571 newer sensor can be drastically minimized with RC Noise Xterminator.
Great job Cuiv…refreshing to get back to creative gear and rig comparisons…great as the packaged units are, I welcome the break from the ‘push here dummy’ product episodes. Cheers!
Thanks Gary! The smart scopes are still a lot of fun and they're getting firmware updates so I feel like I have to cover those but want to keep the volume down now :)
Fascinating and fun comparison between the two sensors. I too was surprised by the small difference between the older sensor and the new one. Often people will get hung up in getting the latest and greatest when first starting out when purchasing a well-maintained older unit will allow them to learn and grow without breaking the bank.
Thanks for that feedback, and fully agree - one thing I forgot to mention is that older sensor tech will be available for much cheaper second hand as well!
Thanks for sharing this experiment. Very interesting 🤔
Thanks Dave!!
you're the bomb, Cuiv! Verrry interesting! I have not purchased my camera/telescope/mount yet, but this sort of head-to-head comparison really helps!
Glad it's helpful!
I wonder if the reason there is so little difference between the old and new cameras is that the images were limited by the sky quality.
It would be interesting to run the same comparison at an excellent dark sky site and see if more difference shows up.
However for most people who don't have great dark skies, the results here still hold up.
As always @CuivTheLazyGeek a great video! I used an EOS50d until June this year when i bought the Touptek/RisingCam IMX 571 based camera, You are right in saying that there is plenty of fun to be had using older kit, I loved every minute of it, Processing my first project with the new camera though was a revelation, i could stretch to my hearts content without any concern for noise.
Its been about 3 months since i last saw a star and I looked at my processing backlog, dealing with the noise issues of the old data soon got tiring! I'm very eager to get some more data with the new camera but it feels like the clouds will never part! Your clear sky guarantees are very tempting 🤔
Buying a new camera results in the inverse of Cuiv's guarantee: 30% FEWER clear nights. It is as sure as e=mc²!
Get your clear skies! Lol
Oh and yes here I was comparing sensor tech only, but a huge jump in image quality is cooled vs uncooled sensors !
As an old (76 years old) long time imager (from back in hypered film days), I tend to resist jumping from what I have to the latest until I can test it out. I have a ZWO 071 that I have been very happy with and frankly I don't see any need to upgrade for quite a while. In the same way....my very old SBIG STL 6303e mono camera gives wonderful images also and that is older CCD tech. The secret is you need to match the pixel size to the focal length.... I would not normally use the 071 with my 6" APO refractor....nor would I use the SBIG camera with my 80mm/480mm refractor. Processing is the secret.
Sounds like a solid approach to me :)
Hypered TechPan!!!
I was doing Astrophotography when I was a teen, about 30 years ago. Took way too many years off and finally got back to it a couple of years ago. What a difference digital has made!
@@ryanwood1911 Started with film in mid 60s but I was doing digital pretty early....my first digital camera was a SBIG ST 237. Back than the advantages were so obvious. But today tech is moving at an amazing pace. I am seeing photos from amateurs today that rival what the pros were doing just a few short years ago from professional astronomers and very expensive PRO setups. I look at the stuff I am getting today compared to what I thought was top notch for the day back than....and it was pretty much crap by today's standards!
Thanks!
One of the bigger differences besides the faster focal ratio of the askar v and newer sensor setup is also 60mm of diameter vs 51mm of diameter with the older sensor setup! It should make the image with the newer sensor even sharper (in addition to being sharper because of the smaller pixels).
Great video!
They're both very much undersampled and nowhere near the resolution limit of the optics, so would that really make a difference?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek You are right! I made a mistake while looking at the resolution limits from the scopes. The difference would have been small anyways I guess... but overall very interesting to see this comparison.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek but isn't it still 40%+ more light gathering with the Askar?
Just picked up a used ASI071 MC Pro for only 700 CAD. It was a great deal.
Sitting outside with my rig pointed at ngc1313 watching Cuiv to pass the time.
Thank you!!
You're welcome!
t's a very interesting video.
I'm also interested in the guiding performance of the equatorial mount.
Which equatorial mount is suitable for photographing dim (10 to 18 mag) comets and calculating their orbits?
I have an SVBony SV505c planetary camera, which uses the IMX485 chip. I really like it. I also have an SVBony SV405cc cooled camera, which uses the IMX294. I like it, too.
Excellent comparison. Interesting results.
Thanks for sharing!
Cool comparison Cuiv! I was wondering if the new sensors were that much better - enough to justify getting one. I do have an ASI2600MC but I still use my ASI1600 MM Pro. Thanks for explianing the Quantum Efficiency in laymen's terms rather than the usual techno babel . Cheers Kurt
Thanks so much Kurt! It's awesome to see so many 1600 cameras in the wild still :)
Thanks Cuiv for the video. Great idea, and even it's not a purely apple to apple comparaison, if my calculus aren't wrong (taking into account diameter, resolution - ie. FL & pixel size, FW ans QE) the filling rate of the well, for a given unit of time, is close (with a 10% in favor of the IMX571). Clear Sky (guaranteed for you ;-) )
For an additional 3 clear nights in Michigan it's totally worth it to use the links!
Hahaha for sure!
Interesting comparison - I'm still using my old QHY9 mono CCD - nothing cheaper than what you already have! 😂 Key tends to be getting enough counting statistics for drizzling to work properly without injecting additional noise - patience required and multi-night images the norm, especially for narrow-band. Downsampling to share processed images tends to bring back blocky stars again but..... 🤷♀
Awesome results form Bortle 9, Cuive!
Thanks Ryan!
Good comparison Cuiv. I think it really says, with a proper processing workflow, you don't necessarily need to run out and spend money on upgrades.....you can save up for a sweet new AM5 mount!
Absolutely!
I went from the 183mc-pro to the 2600mc-pro difference really is night and day.
New sensor will be better if cropping to a smaller target - so will be more flexible!
But as someone without the budget for the new sensor I'm very impressed with the IMX071 - might even go on my shopping list!
Yep, and it's not really because the sensor tech is better, but just thanks to the pixel size!
Once again a great video Cuiv! Just one question though: is that your laundry in the back? 😂
My neighbor's laundry lol it's actually a different house's rooftop, separated from my by a small gap!
Send your photos to print instead of pixel peeping, what's an issue at pixel level is irrelevant in print, I use the 1600mm and the prints from it are 1st class. A good solid 4-9 hours minimum of exposure time yields good results.
Yep, the 1600MM still has a special place in my heart :)
Love your videos. Do you have any player one camera’s? Or planning on testing them. I’m looking at the Ares-C pro (IMX533) and Uranus-C pro (IMX585) I will get them both. The Ares-C pro have same sensor like the ZWO ASI 533 but is way cheaper. I can get both player one cameras for the same price off the ZWO ASI533
Now I still shoot with my Nikon D5600 with 150p Quattro
The 30% increase in clear skies sounded great until I read the fine print: They all occur during full moons.
Hahaha dang you read the fine print!
I have both the ASI071mc and the Touptek IMX571 camera (as well as the Askar V lol). I definitely prefer the Touptek more but the 071mc still holds its own. I do notice the stars have more crosses in your 071 image, which I guess is the undersampling coming into play? Pleiades Astro is now recommending you x1 drizzle all your images regardless of over/undersampling. Did you drizzle these? Anyhoo, great video as usual!
Thanks! Yes, that would be the undersampling - I chose not to drizzle so I could dither less often, and so that the quality of the dither wouldn't be another differentiating factor between the two rigs - but you're right!
Don't want to put a bear in your woods but the stars from the redcat look like little crosses, that's normally a classic sign of astigmatism. While it could be a odd artifact of undersampling I don't know, I would normally expect square stars from that not crosses. Only way to be sure is to perform a star test either side of focus and look for a oval shape that moves through 90degrees as you pass focus.
I still use the 071. I call it a poor man's 2600.
Accurate!
I have an ASI294MC Pro. The ASI2600MC Duo has been calling to me - especially since the ASI Cameras are now on sale (10% off).
But my second telescope is still not up and running (I could barely get it to focus on Sat night - and I am trying to culminate it). That may have been my fault for having the filter installed (SCT seems to be very touchy about that).
Improvement in QE best relates to reduced capture time. 10% more QE, about 10% less capture time. Here the increase in QE of relative 60% (50=>80) would mean only 5/8 or about 60% of capture time gives the same result, plus some extra from less accumulated sensor noise. However, that's around where the buck will stop in terms of QE. Going from 50 to 80 is a 60% increase. Going from 80 to ninety is just above 10% and practically of little additional use of it doesn't come for free.
Interesting comparison Cuiv I couldn't see a massive difference either but I will say that my old QHY8 OSC CCD compared with my Altair Astro 26C is huge & there's probably no way I'd go back to using it. Also these 3 clear nights you mention do we get a refund if we only get 2 ha ha!!
Clear skies & keep up the great work
Aah but I didn't say *when* you'll get those three clear nights in a row :p and yeah going from old CCD to CMOS is a big difference:)
Thanks for the video! I'm currently using that sensor with a Nikon D5100, it's truly something. That DSLR can hold its own.
Would you be able to share the data? I'm curious to see the imx571 raw files.
Thanks again!
Of course older gear is still capable of taking perfectly acceptable images. It just requires a bit more effort calibrating and processing the image etc. This in itself can increase the gratification factor. We choose to go to the moon because it's hard and all that. My cameras seem to work ok even though my 183 mono is getting on a bit. At some point I will probably upgrade but not any time soon. The universe does not know how old your gear is. Great video.
Thanks so much and thanks for the feedback!
Good vid. 30% more clear skies sounds good, but 30% of zero is still zero 😢
To compare signal collection between two systems you can use "imaging etendue", which in its simplest form is ImageScale^2*Aperture^2. Units are not important here as we are just comparing systems, so any units cancel out. For the "Red" system it is (206.3*4.78/250)^2*51*51 = 40468 and for the "White/Blue" is (206.3*3.76/270)^2*60*60 = 29713. This is ignoring the sensors characteristics. So, the "Red" system already has an advantage of 40468/29713=1.36 times. This can perfectly explain why Cuiv didn't see much difference in signal between two images, despite the bigger quantum efficiency of the new sensor. Of course this comes at a price of reduced image scale so we could see less details in the "Red" system image.
Good point! Once taking into account QE, the IMX571 setup still has a 17% advantage - makes me think the only advantage of new sensor tech is QE!
One way to eliminate the effect of the telescope is doing a new parallel section changing just the telescopes. Redcat with new sensor, Askar with the zwo camera.
Below you said the 2600/IMX571 was the gold standard. Do you see any sensor tech on the horizon that will replace this? I'm actually in the upgrade or not camp right now and really attracted to the 2600 Duo, but as you know, we're getting killed with the JPY forex rate so some good new tech to wait for in a year might make it an easier wait! :)
Now do my old STF-8300C (that I’m still shooting with). ;)
I drooled so much over the KAF8300 sensor back in the day!!
what was your exposure time on this data?
At the identical process step, I like the darker background of the old sensor... Is that a result of the under sampling or?
That I'm not sure - maybe the background extraction?
Nice honest comparison. So I am guessing that with a target like M31, dark site with old tech would be better than LP site with new tech. And for M42 mono and 5nm filters old tech would be better than new tech osc and no filter.
Yes - sensor tech matter far, far, far, faaaaar less than light pollution by several orders of magnitude
Amazing to see how CMOS generations are following a fairly slow incremental path (although noise has greatly improved). What about a comparison between the best CCDs (KAF8300) and CMOS?
The KAF8300 wasn't exactly the best CCD though. It was inferior to the last generation of the Sony sensors such as the ICX814 (though they were also 1" type, not 4/3). Even compared to those the CMOS sensors easily win due to even higher QE, and even lower noise (my CCD had quite a few hot pixels, and the measured noise came out to 3.9 electrons).
Great, but the older sensor might start to show it's lesser QE when doing narrowband images. I had the Panasonic sensor from the 1600 series, which is 60QE- not bad, but trying to shoot through a 3nm Sulfur filter and I couldn't get anything but mostly noise, unless I did 10 minute subs. Meanwhile the 533mm pro was good enough with 5 minute subs. It starts to matter, when trying to get enough subs without satellites and airplanes to do as short subs as possible.
Interesting, this wasn't my experience at all with a 1600MM and 3nm Astrodon filters (also it's weird overall, an SII filter just isolates the signal from the sky glow, there's no real loss of signal per se)
I have the 071 mc pro and I'm happy with it image wise however it does have a cooling problem, if you cool faster than 20 minutes the sensor frosts over also it will not reach 30 below ambient, mine only goes around 20 below so I use it mostly around -5 c. Sometimes, in the summer it won't go below zero c so I have to just use what I can get.
The aim is not to cool the camera to the lowest possible temperature but to the optimal temperature for your equipment and conditions I cool mine to 5c at my home site and get excellent results any further would be useless due to light pollution
Interesting! It's usually enough to cool to zero or -5 but still. I wonder if the camera sensor is thicker or if there's variability between units
Dave - my ASI071MC would frost up a lot when I first got it making a diamond grid pattern. After I pulled out the desiccant pellets and microwaved them, the problem has not returned.
I see that you fell for the Askar V. I am very tempted buying it for upgrading from my beginners Skywatcher 50ED.
It's a great telescope, but there's a lot of other great refractors in the price and size range! The redcat 61 looks very interesting with internal focusing!
I bought the Askar V after seeing Cuiv’s and other reviews. It is awesome. It is great having the different image scales to play with. 🙂
It is awesome both mechanically and optically.
Can you run some sort of statistical analysis to compare the two images? I believe PI has such a feature?. Under image analysis, there is a 'noise analysis' script which I haven't ever used, myself.
Meh, I really dislike the statistical analysis, clouds count as signal and stuff like that. I trust my eyes, the results I get, and how hard it was to process more
Shame you didn't drizzle the data for the 071 sensor In the processed image, and do a close up of the noise.
I didn't want the dither quality to be another differentiator between the rigs....
To me, the unprocessed image from the newer sensor looks distinctly better, but after processing the image from the old sensor looks a bit better. Is this a processing difference?
I processed freely for the final images so yes there is a difference although I wouldn't be able to pinpoint it :)
The 071 has perceptible amp glow (taken out by the dark frames of course) and the 571 does not -- right?
No amp glow on the 071! It's one of those gem of a sensor of the olden days :)
i feel like you should of done a close up after using blur and noise exterminator
Hey, nice video!
It triggered an idea: how would it compare to stack 50-100-150-200-250 frames of the new camera against 300 of the old one? If you were able to match them, we could talk about f-stops of difference. Does it make sense?
Good idea, I may try once I get the time!
Hey Cuiv! I recently acquired a CEM60. I can't find any ascom drivers for it that work. They all error out on moving the scope, goto, polar alignment are impossible. Do you know where I can find drivers? I tried the latest ones from the CEM60 support page, no joy. Obviously you have some, since you are using NINA with that mount. Thanks
www.ioptron.com/Articles.asp?ID=295
Hi there Cuiv :) What I would be really interested in knowing now with the same two rigs is, which would be better 300 x 1min or say 60 x 5 min subs ?
From Tokyo, functionally the same. From a Bortle 1 zone, 60x5m will likely be a tiny bit better because of read noise
Hi there Cuiv :) the reason I ask is that I am about to take my QSI 683 WSG-8 (mono) camera off my main scope and replace it with my newly ordered Player One Zeus C Pro (colour),I also live in a Bortle 9 area and was wondering if visually there would be any noticable difference in the final image considering sensitivity etc after you running that routine or something similar ? Carl.
New cameras might be better, but the old setup has more anodized red aluminum, which automatically means it's the winner. lol
Hahaha 🤣
There is huge open cluster ngc206 in M31. One of your picture shows this cluster. Then, you can see that old setup with imx571 sensor is by far better in resolution and in dynamic range.
They both show it as far as I can tell, but the undersampling on the 071 is definitely being an issue :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Any picture will show it. Question is how will it show? I can clearly see separate stars with old set up.
@@anata5127 but that would just be the sampling rather than DR no?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Could be.
As a newbie and still reading, watching and learning, it is interesting that camera tech has not advanced as much, even for you, as expected. Is the next generation just too expensive for production? ZWO needs a real challenger maybe to force it. Competition works. Bigger, better, faster is the name of the game in any business. Something to assess again in another year or two. I'm sure you will.
We'll see what the next gen provides!
Am i the only one here that prefers the image from the old sensor? To me it looks more crisp and detailed, albeit a bit more noisy! But maybe that's because of something other, like the telescope?
I see a huge diffence in the noise. The old sensor is much noiser.
Salut Yannick. As tu vu que la dernière maj de sharpcap gère en natif les cameras TOUPTEK. Du coup j'ai refait l'analyse du capteur de ma touptek IMX571. Et là surprise, un décrochement comme sur les ZWO pour un gain à 300 (alors que la même analyse avec le driver ASCOM, ne faisait pas apparaitre de décrochement). Du coup je pense que le gain idéal se trouve à 300 (301...lol).
Peut être peux tu faire un épisode là dessus, si tu le confirmes
Intéressant, il va falloir que je teste ça. Mais c'est bizarre puisque il y a un bouton dédié HCG, il existe aussi dans Sharpcap?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek dans type d'image (RGB, raw 16,etc)
Very nice comparison video! Thanks for doing that, it certainly helps to justify me keeping my IMX571 camera for a long time to come, even when the next generation of sensor tech comes out.
I do wonder about the guiding though. While I don't think it made a difference in your images, I'm beginning to suspect that the ASIAir "lies" about guiding numbers.' I've seen a number of guide RMS numbers from ASIAir users that look better than expected. I think it would make an interesting video if you took one of your rigs with both the ASIAir and the Mele PC running NINA and alternated connecting and running guiding on both. You have enough experience that you'd get the full blown PHD2 setup with good parameters so I think it would be an interesting comparison to see if the guiding on the ASIAir is lower when all you do is switch cables from one device into the other.
That's an excellent suggestion! Thanks for the idea!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek you’re welcome. Thanks for considering doing it and for all the other unbiased opinions and comparisons you do!
Whaat, AM5 is now old tech ;)
Supplanted by AM3 with internal Bluetooth :p
@@CuivTheLazyGeekEeek! Am5 is old school already, and it works so well. Yep I hear you! ;)
This time it's Donald Duck singing...
Minnie next!
Older looks better.