ALL Astro-Camera Specifications REVEALED so YOU can choose and use BETTER!
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
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Cameras featured in this video: bit.ly/3D2wL8z and bit.ly/3PLGVlC
FOV and resolution/Dawes Limit calculator: astronomy.tools/calculators/f...
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My equipment
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Cooled camera: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DCY...
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OCAL Collimator: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dmu... or s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dc6...
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or bit.ly/3GLuyR8 or tinyurl.com/2h758bvt
ZWO AM5 Mount: bit.ly/3BAS8x5 or bit.ly/3JeVUkn
iOptron CEM70: bit.ly/431Ii2U (successor of my mount)
MiniGuideScope: bit.ly/3MyUJhn
Antlia ALP-T highspeed filter: bit.ly/42RBR2e
Celestron C6: bit.ly/3ocePVs
Hyperstar C6: starizona.com/products/hypers...
Mini Computer (newer version): amzn.to/3LQTgTJ and amzn.to/3K6x2vy
AstroPC Pro: astro-gadget.net/gadgets/astr...
Cable management: www.etsy.com/shop/SmartCompon...
IDAS GNB filter: idas.uno/space/en/IDAS/gnb.htm
Flocking paper/Felt paper: amzn.to/3zASgvu or amzn.to/3m94zwa
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Affiliate Links
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NEW Agena Astro Affiliate Link: bit.ly/3Om0hNG
General High Point Scientific affiliate link: bit.ly/3lReu8R
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General Amazon Link:
amzn.to/3hTB5Ne
00:00 Introduction
01:06 Sensor and Pixel sizes
07:40 ADC
09:02 Read Noise
11:28 Cooling
14:09 Full Well Depth
15:35 Quantum Efficiency
17:37 QE Curve
20:46 Amp Glow
21:31 Curves - in detail
33:51 Cooling and Thermal Noise
37:10 Conclusion
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Support me on Patreon!: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek
Cameras featured in this video: bit.ly/3D2wL8z and bit.ly/3PLGVlC
FOV and resolution/Dawes Limit calculator: astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/
"Strap in"... "strap on" is something else entirely. 🙂
Probably the most productive and informative 40 minutes I have ever spent on RUclips in terms of Astroimaging. I'd say this was a perfect Unity Gain of learning minute for minute XD. Just got a 533MM Pro and your timing is perfect. I learned so much about it. I always love your videos and one topic I really want you to touch on, are the Guide Settings (like Calibration Steps, Dec RA Duration, Aggressiveness, Calibration etc). Seems like everyone just goes by random numbers that worked for them without knowing what's going on .. and I'd love if you can dive into the theory and give some exact info on how to make those perfect for ASIAIR. Again thank you so much for this.
Thanks so much! I like to make useful videos :-)
Aaaah guide settings are a good idea, thank you!
Your comprehension of this, combined with your capacity to articulate into it, is a pleasure to listen to.
Hey Cuiv! Great explanation of camera specs! I really enjoyed this video as being a electronics geek and loving all this camera info! Thanks for the video and clear skies!
Thanks as always Dave!
Great information Cuiv and clear explanations. Thank you for taking the time to do that
My pleasure, glad it was helpful!
As someone new to the hobby, this was 40 minutes well spent! Fantastic overview.
I’m really enjoying your ‘brainy’ videos while we wait for the end of your rainy season. I considered myself knowledgeable about camera specs but learned quite a few things from your presentation. Well done Cuiv… as usual!
Great to hear! Thank you!
Your explanation of cooling was great! Well done, post.
Thank you Cuiv! Literally just started browsing for astro cams to graduate from dslr. The timing couldn't be any better.
Excellent! Have fun choosing !
Great video, keep them coming!
Expertly explained and still accessible for many as always. Very useful video Cuiv , Thanks!
My pleasure, glad it helped!
Thanks Cuiv for the comprehensive video! It helps a lot on deciding my next camera.
My pleasure!
Very clear and concise in your explanation of the graphs. You continue to educate and amaze me at your knowledge of the subject matter. I recently got an IMX533 camera and have yet to give it first light. I'm in the preliminary stages of building a permanent home for my scopes... still cutting trees down!
Hope that first light comes soon, must be so much work getting that obsy ready!!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Still have about 10 pines to cut... and I'm not getting any younger! lol If you're visiting the states any time soon... I have extra saws ;)!
As important as unobstructed views are, I loth people who cut down trees unnecessarily!! We've done enough to kill this planet, or more appropriately, the life living on it. GAIA will survive, and the (PAINFULLY) evil powers that don't care.
Thank you so much for explaining these!
Great video, thanks a lot!
Fantastic video. Just the right amount of technicality for a newbie. Thanks very much. Great haircut too 🤣
Haha thanks Dave!
What an excellent video. Thank you so much Cuiv!
My pleasure!
Hey Cuiv, you have the best videos on the web! Love how you explain the details!!
As they say I'm NASA you are a steely eyed missile man!!!!
Thanks so much and thanks for the support!!
Helping expanding the reach. :) Thanks Cuiv.
Thank you!
Brilliant explanation! Understood it all. A little sneaky calculus going on there, deriving alot from little information, awsome!
THANK YOU. More please.
Love my 533mc pro.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent video, thank you, you’ve filled in a few missing parts that I didn’t fully understand.
Glad it helped!
Another fantastic and useful to me, video. Ty
Glad it was helpful!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek wish i could help with your current newt issue. Why is there always a newt issue? :)
I use astronomy tools when deciding on a camera for the scope. For example I went for the 268m instead of the 533 because on my refractor I am 1.51 arc/s per px and when I can get a m42 5mm spacer made so I can use it on my c8 with and without the reducer I can bin and still be in a good spot for resolution. But any time anyone asks me which camera should they buy I send them to astronomy tools an tell them get the one you can afford that gives you the best resolution for your setup.
So Glad you make these educational videos on the more technical aspects of the hobby and field of science. Not many people understand the graphs they are looking at and way to many people out there giving wrong information.
Resolution is indeed an important factor!
Thanks for the vid!!! Great stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent explanation- great to see the maths too !
Very informative!!!
Interesting, I wish you could also do a sort of comparison of ZWO, QHY and other brands, emphasizing on pros and cons. I have a few issues with my ZWO so moved to QHY.
Great tutorial!
As astrophotographers overall, we just don’t influence the camera development market much, we’re lucky to get what we have. They will sell more DSLRs in one day then astronomy cameras in a year, so the sensor development market just doesn’t cater to us. Still we have better gear now then we ever had previously, so enjoy. Thanks Cuiv, clear sky’s.
Very informative, well done 👌
Thank you!
Just got a haircut, too - did it myself. Penny pinching for more astro gear. Thanks for the work,Cuiv !
Penny pinching to feed the addiction :)
Such a useful video thanks!!! One question, when would you consider the thermal noise being a significant addition to the read noise ? Add would it be attenuated by dark frames ?
Hi sweetheart I love watching you channel.. I find it so helpful and amusing please keep it up.. I live in the midlands of the Uk so not many good sky’s.. take care xx
Thanks! Hope you do get clear skies soon!
This is the best explanation I have heard so far. Sorry to others who have made clogs on this, but your explanation was more of a full explanation.
Thank you!
Great information thanks for sharing experience
My pleasure!
Thank you for this very informative video. I learned a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to make these videos.
However, at 34:04 you triggered one of my pet peeves. The difference between Degrees Celsius and Celsius Degrees. Properly, this camera can be cooled to 35 Celsius Degrees below ambient. Minus 35 Degrees Celsius is an actual temperature (a very cold one, even here in Canada) minus 35 Celsius Degrees is the difference between two temperatures, in this case the uncooled and cooled temps of the sensor.
Again, love your Channel. Keep them coming.
Thank you! And your pet peeve is a non-standard way to express intervals :) But as long as it's clear from context or explicitly stated (as it is in the video), It's perfectly acceptable to say degrees Celsius even for an interval! :)
I believe there is a mistake that spans across many ZWO ASI camera manuals, where they specify at the bottom of the gain curves page, "Gain(unit 0.1dB)". I believe in all cases that I've checked, this is a mistake and instead should be units of 0.05 dB. It's as if somebody decided to round 0.05 up to 0.1 for some reason, not realizing what a big mistake that is. And this rounding mistake continued across many manuals. I've checked this on my own ZWO cameras, and the gain units are in fact 0.05 dB, not 0.1 dB. -- Great video, by the way, Cuiv!
Encore une excellente video! Merci.
Merci!
Awesome video. That’s given a much greater depth to my understanding of all those charts and more importantly a means of sorting what and what is important in imagining-e.g. there is little point flogging the cooler to achieve-15C over -10C on my 2600MC. As a thought, I was wondering what were your thoughts on increasing the gain to 150 when imaging for just Sii (mono camera!)to compensate for the reduced quantum efficiency at that wave length? There is the reduced well depth but if you were not getting close to fwd anyway ??? Would this also really complicate stacking & processing of subs beyond creating 150 bias frames and others if you felt really fanatical about darks? Just a thought! Thanks again for all your superb work. Clear skies
Thanks Steven! To be honest I'd probably just keep at Gain 100 - gain doesn't improve sensitivity so in the end you'd get very similar results!
Thank you (again) for this info. I have been patiently waiting for you to go over these astro camera graphs..... does that make me the LAZIER geek? :)
I was hoping however, that you would analyze the ASI585mc because of the large FW 47k capacity and auto-HCG mode setting that they claim limits the noise while maintaining a high dynamic range at higher gain levels.
I know this model is contrary to your advice to purchase only cooled models, but honestly the cost differences, for me are prohibitive.
(Of course, I have a plan :)
Thanks!
super informative. I had made my decision on the 533MC-Pro already, but now I feel even better about it.. Love your videos. I'm new to the photography side of things, but have been looking up for a very long time. At this point, I am moving from a DSLR to a 533. Can't wait to see the difference in my light-polluted skies here in Southern Ontario, Canada.
That's going to be an excellent camera to upgrade to, enjoy!
My second time watching this. Great stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I will be ordering a new OSC camera shortly (with a 533 sensor) so I have found this post really interesting and helpful. I will probably get the Altair Astro version as the mono camera and planetary/guide camera s I own are supplied by them and have been fine and in the UK it comes with a tilt adjusting ring and a 12v PSU which offsets the higher price than the ZWO version (which appears to be an excellent camera as well) To be honest I think most of the well known brands are supplying very good cameras these days.
Sounds good to me! And I agree all brands seem to be providing really good cameras!
Hi, my question is off the topic. As you have reviewed many mounts (one of them is Vixen), I am interested to know the suitability of vixen SX2 with star book 10 for astrophotography.
I don't find any video or written reviews in that regard. Thanks.
Hi there awesome video. For upgrading the 294 mm which would be your choice?..... Mono again? 2600mm? Thank you
Mono or OSC is up to you! I'd personally go for IMX571 sensors, but you will get lower resolution than 294MM
Looking forward to your thoughts on the zwo dual sensor when it’s available for your professional scrutiny.
If I ever get a sample!
F-Stops are kinda simpel in photography. It's just like every F-Stop is double/half the light you gather.
So with every step your picture gets double or half as bright to the next. This is also linked in the traditional ISO. An ISO-200 film is double sensitiv as an ISO-100 - and half of ISO-400. ISO800 is double of 400 and so on. And this is also straight linked to the time... Like double or half exposure time.
So in traditional photography you can decide hence what you need. If you need shorter exposure to capture something fast moving (sport or flying birds where you want to have the wings sharp, waterfalls with crisp splash etc) reduce exposure, say from 1/250 second to 1/500s for a half as bright image. Or you can step down 1 aperture, i.e. maybe from f/5.6 to f/8, to get more depth of field. Or, since digital photography, just go from ISO 400 to ISO 200 to get more dynamic range. Chemical Film will have a granier look with higher sensitivity. So if your exposure is like you want it but you need maybe a faster shutter, you double the shutterspeed, and then bump up the aperture one step to get the same brightnes.
Full steps are on most cameras: f/ 22, 16, 11, 8, 5.6, 4, 2.8, 1.8, 1.4 ... (if you could find a lens with bigger aperture as 1.8 you would be very happy and have had to pay a lot of money back then :D )
Thanks for your explanation about the gain and stuff labeled on astrocams since I had no idea what they ment! 😅
Hi Cuiv,
Thanks for the very thoughtful explanation.
It's funny because I also have a camera based on the IMX533 sensor (Player-One Saturn C) and I bought it because at the time it was the only non-cooled / budget camera with a zero amp glow 1 inch sensor. But I also liked the fact that they advertise it as having a full well capacity of 73K e- (which is 46% more than 50K!!)
Now I realize that this just means that they shifted the gain scale - the unity gain is at 125 instead of 100.
Is it just a selling trick or something that can actually help me in my light polluted area?
According to their website the camera has two modes: normal and low-readout noise, do you think it's related?
I have no idea about the low readout noise mode, but on the full well there is an extended full well mode on QHY or Touptek cameras as well. I'm not 100% sure of the purpose of that mode - you can take longer sub exposures without saturating stars.
I now finally understand all these graphs and specs. This is really going to help me make my decision. Hats off to you again Cuiv!
Now to research and decide on either the 183, 533 or 585 to go with my evoguide 50ed. The 533 sounds really good but I am concerned about the undersampling. What do you reckon? I am currently using an IMX178 for imaging!💀
Thanks again!
Either camera will work - maybe the Player One cooled 585 could be the best compromise?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Yeah I think I am leaning towards the 585. What is putting me off is the cooled 585 is a little tricky to get hold of in the UK. Only one seller, which means they can inflate the prices...
Thanks Cuiv!
Hi Cuiv - Great Video! Question about ADC. You said the 2^14 is 16234, but when I do my flat frames in NINA for my 533MC Pro it has an ADU of 65536. The ZWO Site shows the 533 with a 14 bit ADU and not 16 bit. Why is this the results in NINA?
The ZWO driver rescales to 16 bits by simply multiplying by 4. But the ADC itself used the 16000-ish levels!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thank you.
Excellent presentation Cuiv, as usual. One thing that occurred to me when you explained camera cooling that doesn't make sense. If the camera's cooling setting moves the temperature to that point below ambient temperature, and not to that *actual* temperature, then what does a setting of 0 degrees (which I use) mean? By inference, the camera will be not be cooled at all, but will remain at ambient. Likewise, if I used a setting of 5 degrees, that implies the camera would be warmed to 5 degrees above ambient! This doesn't make sense, so surely the cooling setting must be taking the camera to that actual temperature, no matter what the ambient temperature is. (Or am I missing something ***really** obvious?)
The camera cooling can cool the sensor up to 35C below ambient temp. It will try to reach the temperature you set in software (in NINA or ASIAIR for instance). So if you set your target temp to 5C it will try to reach that.
I’m looking at the imx571 sensor cameras and would love your feedback between some of the non ZWO/QHY brands. I am between the RisingCam, OGMA and PlayerOne Poseidon monochrome cameras. Prices vary a little bit, but the graphs between the cameras are not consistent. What do you think?
they should have the same performance.
Thanks for this very comprehensive video! I’m using the ZWO ASI533MC Pro for quite a while now and it is a great camera. I always use it at a gain of 101, offset of 40 and cooled at -10°c. I wonder who gave me the advice to use a gain at 101 rather than 100 … any idea? 😂
Clear skies
Bert
I wonder who gave you that advice lol
wish you would add “Offset” into the discussion too, complete the picture associated with Gain.
But not part of the specifications themselves :) typically it's fine to leave the offset at default!
Thanks!
Thank you!!
Thank you, I’m starting to understand 😂🤟🏼🖖🏼
The one thing you didn't cover in this video is the offset. What is it and how do I calculate it for my camera? other than that very informative. Thanks Cuiv.
Not part of the specs itself :-) Keep it at default basically
I’m still somewhat new to astrophotography and recently started using a redcat 51 and 533mc pro and my images are a little blurry. I calculated my arcseconds per pixel to be 3.1 so would that explain the blur since it’s oversampling? I did short exposures too of 30s so it could be that as well. If anyone wants to see what I’m talking about, it’s the second image under my community tab. I know the Sombrero is kinda blurry because I had to crop so much but I’m not sure about the Rosette.
You are undersampling, but that's fine. If the image look blurry, it could be soft focus - the Bahtinov mask that comes with the redcat isn't great, and focus can shift throughout the night!
Thanks for the video Cuiv. I thought I had a decent knowledge of astro cameras but indeed learnt a lot of thing. About full well capacity, I have read that if you go over the FWC, electrons may leak into adjacent pixels and give you bloated stars. Is it true or just an urban legend ? Best. Damien
That was true for CCD, but not for CMOS!
Thanks
Thank you!!!
Nice new hair cut 😎
Haha thank you!
Dedicated astronomy cameras have improved by light years (to easy) anyway, all the new cameras are amazing and have the ability to produce incredible results. Now we just need the software providers to catch up.
Absoluely!
How do these graphs change when in Bin1 vs Bin 2, etc?
They don't! Binning for CMOS cameras is effectively a post-exposure software operation that increases SNR 2x at the cost of 4x less resolution
@@CuivTheLazyGeekthanks for the reply. After I commented I noticed my 294mm pro has both the bin2 and bin 1 charts available on ZWOs site. Can you help explain why the charts change between the two? Excellent video by the way, I’m learning a lot!
Also just as a summary, is the most efficient settings for DSO capture, the longest sub time possible with your set up, and then the highest gain value without clipping or significant star bloat ?
Any idea why the 533 is 14bit and the 2600(571) is 16bit when they are essentially the same sensor?
The sensors are basically the same, able to detect ~14.5 stops of dynamic range, but the Analog-to-Digital electronics that read the data is different for each sensor package. This also means that the 2600 is not a true, full 16-bit camera.
As Aaron explained! In the end everything is the same but achieved via different means!
Thanks for explaining these technical aspects Cuiv, I have one question though. Why is it described as a 1" square sensor when at 11.31mm, it isn't even close to being one inch per side? Or, in the graphic, it is shown as 1" across the diagonal (which isn't the same as one inch square), but again, its way short. About 9mm short I think. I don't think most people probably care, myself included since I have the colour version, but this is misleading. In fact here in the UK it could probably be described as false advertising.
www.cined.com/the-truth-about-1-inch-sensors-they-are-smaller-than-you-might-think/
QUESTION: If you are imaging extremely dim objects at high magnification using dual narrowband filters (M101 8HD F/10 and L-Ultimate) and medium dark skies taking 10min exposures, will it make big difference if I do it at a gain 100 or 300? I do it at gain 300 (ASI2600MC PRO) and it lets me to wonder if I am doing it wrong. Thanks. BTW I love your channel. Last time you answered my question during your live stream I was able to help my friend to make his EQ6R-pro working using built USB connector. Without you he would lose another precious clear night.😊❤❤❤
Hello Lubo - and glad I was able to help with the EQ6R :D On the gain, I would personally just keep it at 100, but maybe increase the exposure length if possible... It's just very hard to overwhelm read noise in NB at F10...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thank you for your advise. I guess I will try the extreme exposure at 30min. The real test for EQ6R 😂
Woah
Sensor is important for performance, and ZWO thinks it is ONLY important part.
As a result, their camera sensors covered often with oil (not only 2600mm, but others as well), fans vibrate, ampglow more than in proper companies, sensor unstable (ASI294MM), and importantly, they don’t last long.
Not sure I agree with this generalization, despite some misgivings I have with this company! My 1600MM lasted years and years and years of abuse
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Yes, nothing is general. My 174mm is still functional.
Any their product is miss or heat, 50-50. Just like buying lottery. Is astronomy equivalent lottery? I don’t think it should be. Company should have proper QC. They don’t.
Your Channel Rocks brother! Keep it on course, again your dead on target. Cheers
Cuiv,
I’ve already called into question you’re interpretation of the word “Lazy” but I have no further accusations to make at this time; how much time do you spend each day, with your dark cabal, scanning my thoughts?
Because how do you know I’m fighting with my Nikon and am considering throwing my credit card at ZWO?
You sir, are a warlock.
Cheers 😂
Hahaha I do spend much time scrying your thoughts
GREAT and important video: I want a camera - color to record the planets. I have a 16" ACF F8 Meade and no one seems to know what is the best camera for planets. All that I get is a myriad of jargon - and I just don't have the data to choose. Thanks, Cuiv. PS; If you have time and the knowledge, another video on CCD camera selection and how to choose depending upon the OTA focal length and the OTA size. (Does OTA size have any impact on camera selection?)
Nice haircut! 😋
regarding camera specs & parameters, i have a stupid question > what is the purpose of using gain 0 under super-dark sky? Does it have something to do with the chance of capturing weak light in the spectral range where the QE is lower and also not clipping the stars (with super-long exposures)? I ask this stupid question because, as far as i understand, @gain 0, camera must capture ~3 times more signal in order to "read" something equivalent @gain100. And if all reduces to the chance that a photon with a low energy level will hit the pixel and be converted into a signal, that chance is 1/3 lower in reality @gain 0 (assuming that the analog units stored in the pixel at a given time are divisible by 3). And this whole photon lottery game also has the disadvantage of having crazy read-noise levels @gain 0.
What is this gain 0 good for?
I captured cygnus wall @ gain 0 with asi533 MC pro and askar fra400 for 100min in 4 exposures> 2 x30min and 2x20min @gain0 and the processing was a pain because of the read-noise.
1drv.ms/i/s!AhnE2FNorD7YguMrOE_Bz3SeaLUI9Q?e=k26GWi
The Eagle was captured with the same equipment @ gain 101 (101 to be sure that the driver will trigger the other sensor reading algo) for the same amount of time but with shorter exposures. The low readnoise made my editing a pleasant process.
1drv.ms/i/s!AhnE2FNorD7YgvJ5Gj1FEUsGgWvMSg?e=LkmSci
I know that i can reduce the read noise by increasing the SNR with lot of subs, but if you compare cygnus wall (that is brighter than eagle), i believe that gain 0 for the 533 sensor is just useless.
(ah, and the sky conditions are similar to Tokyo - Bucharest, Romania, bortle 6-7)
I want a mate in this hobby like you🫡
Share Ur interest in this hobby with Ur neighbours and make them addicted and soon u got a body whome U can exchange ideas 💡
@@User1dentification the ideas are not the problem but tbe nowledge is😄 and i have tried to infect a few mates but the investment they must do to start the hobby is mostly the thing, espacialy in the country i am living in. Feb to the start of may we didnt have clear night and now we are having bad nights again. But i understand what youre saying👌