Well, that still wouldn't make them HSR though. The international HSR standard calls for speeds above 150mph on new track and above 125mph on upgraded track. Brightline's new track is limited to 124mph and the upgraded track at 109mph. So even if they electrify after this current extension they would still only be able to qualify for the "Higher" speed designation, which is a lot more nebulous than HSR.
There are different standards in America, based on FRA track classes. 90 mph to 150 mph is considered high-speed rail, while 160+ mph is ‘Very High-Speed Rail’ or VHSR. This is very different from the general European standard of high-speed rail, which only includes the VHSR speeds. More confusing is that VSHR seems to be a relatively new classification meant to better fit current conditions in the US.
@@Ven100 What does US law have with an HSR standard? USB-C is a standard universally accepted in the industry. What law enforces everyone to use USB-C and not some alternative standard?
In Amtrak's defense, the reason why the trains and stations are more utilitarian is because of funding and unlike brightline, Amtrak covers the whole nation and a lot of the stations and rolling stock need refurbishing and improvement and that will cost BILLIONS which luckily will be provided thanks to the infrastructure bill. But I think passenger rail deserves a lot more than $36 billion, I want passenger rail to have average speeds of 70+ mph, full electrification and more amenities in more train stations.
While it is nice, we do not necessarily need grandiose stations. If we want to be able to add services at a reasonable cost, stations are a good opportunity to save funds. Heck, stations can even be as simple as a platform with some ticket machines and shelters. Of course, I would encourage transit oriented development wherever possible.
@@tonywalters7298 I'm not talking about grandiose stations. I mean amenities like bathrooms and if possible, a cafe or diner so that passengers can get something to eat while they wait for the train or after getting off.
Having recently driven between Orlando and Miami (and back again), I can tell you that not only will this be substantially faster than driving (accidents and traffic are almost guaranteed every day), it will be much more comfortable. Driving in Miami is probably the worst part about Miami.
Last trip I did between the two cities was a nightmare! A 3-4 hour trip turned into 7 hours with a horrific accident on I-95 in Broward county that shut it completely down.
Houston to Dallas/Ft Worth is promising, so would lines from Chicago to say Detroit, or the Twin Cities. At this time it is just not practical for long-distance trains, so we will hafta continue to slog along with current Amtrak service for the for the time being...
Rode Brightline when I was in florida earlier this year and it is a fantastic service. Really excited to see what they do with Brightline West. The thing that bothered me about Miami is that Amtrak, Tri-Rail, and Brightline all have different terminus stations vs a single Miami union station.
Miami Central will soon house tri rail trains, additionally the station is adjacent to overtown station which allows commuters to transfer onto the metro mover for local downtown Miami and Brickell trips or the metrorail for further commutes like coral gables, coconut grove and palmetto.
Brightline just sold one of the towers above their new Miami station for $400m+. Looks like that's the plan, makes me wonder what they'll do for Vegas.
I don't get why they didn't choose to electrify. They could have had much better acceleration, even less emissions and higher efficiency. Instead of two engines, they could would have just one, or even powered bogies throughout the train.
I imagine it's likely to do with the fact that freight trains on run on their main line. But they could run bi-mode trains that are diesel and then switch to electric at the last station before the Orland line.
@@theofficerfactory2625 it is, and so are many things, but the ecological, operational and fuel savings are massive on the long run. Not electrifying because it's expensive is saying we rather save money than the environment, and that's silly
@@eannamcnamara9338 Brightline was a proof of concept and was the first private rail operator in over 100 years. They had a very very tight budget and had to make this thing financially viable to prove that passenger rail in America still works, unlike every other attempt at private rail in the last century. They need to start somewhere so they started with freight rail, no grade-separation, and Diesel engines which are still 4-6x less emissions than driving from Orlando to Miami. For Brightline West which is LA to Vegas, they’ll have more money and more experience so they’re planning to electrify and run fast trains. You can’t get every single thing right on your first try, especially when it’s extremely financially risky and an unproven business model to banks who loan you the money. It makes sense how they’re rolling out their projects and I’m glad they didn’t overshoot the original project and end up shooting themselves in the foot like California HSR
I hope that they get the commuter line up and running along side their intercity rail service as well as completes there full scope operation of miami to tampa and miami to Jackson as well as gets brightline west up and running. They have a lot to look forward too.
even if it’s not true high speed, it’s still a high quality service up to par with the quality of european passenger rail and it’s definitely faster than amtrak
I would love to see Brightline continue south from Tampa down to Naples and points in between. It would also be nice if it went up through Gainesville and Tallahassee to connect the universities/state capitol.
@@andrewreynolds4949 I meant like late 2030s. Starting with whichever line would generate the most revenue. I'm hoping that Brightline can eventually create a commuter rail system in the Tampa Bay area, too. I think it would have more success as a private entity than a government one.
@@91_C4_FL I think that's what they're doing, they're working on the most feasible routes with Miami and southern Florida to Orlando and probably to Tampa. If those succeed then they might consider more at that point.
Nice new video on Brightline! I used to complain about Brightline running 125 mph diesels early-on and even compared them to 1970s Britain (UK is similar size to Florida) since Britain also started out with the diesel InterCity 125 trains. Now I'm fine with Brightline since they're expanding so much and I think they're doing a more decent job. I'm still envious of high speed rail in other states since I'm from southwestern Pennsylvania and having a separate electrified HSR in my state would be too expensive and too long to build from the more electrified east to the diesel powered west.
Brightline is doing it right. Get the trains rolling and passengers moving. As the service continues to get more popular, then we start upgrading the infrastructure.
@@Ven100 This is exactly what many people complaining about electrification don't understand. Before investing billions into electrifying the rail, let's get a profitable company going by getting people moving. Then we can talk about upgrades to the line.
we still got 125mph diesels. Now we got 140mph (limited to 125mph) Bi modes along with some electrics. 125mph is still 125mph aka quite fast. Diesel is good for a start then have bi modes and electrification in stages.
I wonder if the success of Brightline (ridership was up to 3x what was forecast) will help the Texas Central Railway project and attract new investors.
Just a heads up, the Disney Spring's station is not happening now, they made a new revised line that goes through Orlando and connects with Sunrail (Orlando's commuter train) and will now have a station next to the convention center which also not that far away from Universals new park Epic Universe. Disney was not happy about that so they said no, but Universal is not only on board with this, but they are also going to help fund the convention center station. There will be a station near Disney World just not on their property.
I’m wondering how bright line can let Tri rail run on the same line because they’ll be going at such different speeds. Will Tri-rail go to a side line one bright line comes along?
TRI-Rail runs on CSX tracks & Brightline runs on FEC tracks. TRI-Rail will only have access to Brightline tracks in Miami-Dade County when it will use their Main station in downtown Miami which will be for a few miles only..
I can't find any info on this anywhere, but does brightline plan to ever upgrade the miami to west palm rail line to the 150 mph gradethey are using for the orlando to tampa leg? Seems like they could shave off another hour from the full trip if the whole length was upgraded to the 150 mph grade. I guess they just started with the low speed rail to test the waters and bring in some initial revenue?
Can’t wait to ride! To make it even faster, all the grades/crossings would have to be eliminated, roads having bridges or tunnels, or accidents will continue.
Keep in mind that Amtrak doesn't own infrastructure (except NE corridor)! So the comparison is worth it, but is not really fair! 🤔 But good video afterall! Who knows? Maybe one day Amtrak will be the 'Deutsche Bahn' or 'SBB' of the US! 😉
I'll give you 10:1 odds that Brightline abandons the line as soon as their state subsidies run out and they sell their last condo. Hopefully Amtrak takes over the service after Brightline dies off rather than a state service. Amtrak will now run the exact same Charger Loco + Venture car combo and will be better positioned to continue maintenance and operations on those 10 trainsets.
I don’t think Brightline is receiving big subsidies. I sincerely doubt Amtrak would take over from them if they fail and I’m sure they wouldn’t do as good of a job. The most Amtrak involvement I could see ever happening is buying the train sets off them.
@@andrewreynolds4949 That's probably what will happen, amtrak will get a deal on the train sets and equipment. But maybe Florida could intergreate it into something state run. I doubt the Republicans would do that but if they don't it's just gonna be land that costs probably up too a billion too repurpose. Idk tho
Brightline is over one billion dollars in debt. The routes they chose are also serviced by airlines, interstate highways and the turnpike. They do have excellent publicist, but you need to get info from the accountants.
I can't see this being any more useful than just driving to Orlando and back... With the lines for security or lines for anything else, by the time you get on the train and even disembark would be the same if you just drove... Its just gonna be an experience rather than actual purpose...
Not really. The lines are quite short. There is horrible traffic on the toll roads and sometimes accident, and people driving while texting and drinking alcohol and changing lanes without a signal so if nothing else you avoid stress and traffic.
This type of infrastructure is great for people who don't want to drive, people who want to do things on the ride through, people who can't drive, people who don't own cars, and many other reasons. It also has the potential to be cheaper too. Considering this is competitive with driving, it's a practical choice many people will make.
@@stuartdilts2729 u have a point like tourist who don’t have rides, can have it easy travel to 4 destinations pretty easily and the people who live right next to the station would be easy for them too, which can be a decent chunk of cars off the road but I was think of people outside the stations like the people who live in the suburbs of the cities… By the time they get to the station and whatever it’s gonna be the same… Also they said that it would cost around the $100 range for Orlando to south Florida, for one way ticket, which is kinda the same cost if on car…
@@enjoyslearningandtravel7957 basically an experience… we gonna see though, it obviously has the potential to be great like in Europe where it can replace the car and airplane… Maybe if they can tweak it just enough to reduce the time to travel under 3 hours it definitely would be game changing
@@stuartdilts2729 yes! ! I completely agree. I have friends in Florida that can’t drive anymore, well older friends and well to, or are afraid to drive because of a very bad accident that someone ran into them and they had to escape from their car with a fire, plus I can drive but I don’t like the stress of driving on a toll road and we all live in Florida. And we are excited to take it yes yes yes some of us are rail fans and some of us it is just practical
_Definitely_ not the comfort level that people are expecting from a train! The whole point of taking the train is so that you aren't stuck in a flying tin can with 0.4 inches of legroom and pinched between to chubsters!
@@KRYMauL Actually, the seats on the Venture cars are a little too airline-like and too stiff for my taste. Normally, Amtrak trains have ridiculously comfortable seats. But the point of our conversation here was that airline seats suck and are widely reviled. Describing something as being like an airline seat is an insult not a compliment. That’s what we were making fun of.
@@natenae8635 I was talking to OP, he was mad how he wasn’t able to go inside the station without an adult, but that’s just dangerous especially in a place like Florida, but there are much worse places
Idk if they'll get the funds but they should really start to grade separate more of the corridor. We can keep blaming bad drivers and mental health, but clearly there's an infrastructure issue if collisions keep happening so often.
hmmm. Well really it's both. Bad infrastrucutre + idiot drivers. They should really atleast for now till a grade separated pass can be built put quad barriers across the road so drivers don't simply go around them.
Even this train is barely "private". Unlike what people like to say, Brightline applies for and takes government money whenever they can get it. All of this is public information yet some people continue to pretend like Brightline isn't subsidized. In reality they are privately-owned, but publicly-funded. That's a bad idea if you ask me. Giving some private company money to build a rail line that they will own seems like the latest and greatest in corporate socialism nightmares rather than the libertarian daydream that most rail fans seem to be afflicted with.
I think a semi-private company like Briteline is the way to go since the politics of rail are questionable at best. the private companies don't have to worry about votes and donation influence. one rail has evidence for its value in the US the government may be able to scale it up faster than private but that only comes when it's beneficial to them to do so.
I do not think Brightline is perfect by any means; it was an egregious misstep to not grade separate or electrify the FEC corridor between Miami and Cocoa. Brightline would have been able to achieve true high speed services on a grade separated line with overhead catenary.
Due To Tons Of Train - Other Vehicle Accidents. Since 2020, Brightline Are Now Called "Darkline". That's Very Better Names Than Original Name. The Original Name + Train - Other Vehicle Accidents. It Considered "Ironic" At All.
That would've been crazy expensive to do grade separate it, and Brightline is not in the same shoes as CalTrain, which, as part of CalMod, is not only doing electrification, but also some grade separations. Because CalTrain's network is fully owned by them, it's easier to do grade separation, whereas with Brightline, they have to work alongside FEC so they can still provide access to FEC's yards and access to customers. Brightline is in an awkward spot as a result of freight trains still running on their lines.
@@randomscb-40charger78 They actually are in the same position. Caltrain also operates on freight ROW. They operate alongside Union Pacific. Caltrain might own the SF to Tamien portion, but UP owns everything else. UP still operates freight on the Caltrain owned portion on off service ours.
They really made a mistake not electrifying. I know they were trying to minimize startup costs, but operations would be so much faster and more efficient if they electrified.
Completely agree! Btw, Brightline absolutely does have the financial capabilities to electrify the line; extra tall catenary to accommodate the FEC freight gauge does exist in other countries. Simply put, Brightline foolishly chose not to electrify since diesels are more the less the standard in North America.
@@toadscoper4575 no its just simply because they wanted to first see how service could run and how busy it would get. When new trains are needed I think THEY will run with overhead power
Brightline absolutely does not have the funding to electrify the line and they don’t need to. If they do in the future I’m sure it won’t be for another several decades, when rolling stock replacement is beginning to look feasible. (Still, there’s no chance of that happening.) Speaking of ‘private companies’ being stupid and wasteful? Amtrak is the one who is planning to replace their new electric locomotives already. ‘Government efficiency’ is an oxymoron.
@@andrewreynolds4949 what is Amtrak replacing where? Brightline is using standard diesel electric locomotives developed for Amtrak for faux higher speed rail. In any case, the right of way is property of private freight rail companies which is part of why they haven't been electrified, unlike in Europe where railways are wholely state owned
Nice to see a new passenger line in America but surprised that electrification was not envisaged. What is the love with polluting (regardless of how efficient they are supposed to be) diesel engines that side of the pond?
They do have the ability to electrify, (the bridges have places for the pylons) but I assume due to the face that it's not completely grade separated, as well as the double stacks they share the FEC mainline on the east coast stretch. Brightline West will be electrified
Since much of the rail lines here are owned by freight companies such as BNSF and Union Pacific, they have no incentive to electrify their lines even though that would be great for passenger rail. Much of the lines Amtrak runs on is not owned by them so that is why passenger rail here is pretty bad.
@@smokeybandit9760 Pretty poor excuse. A lot of lines in Europe are not grade separated - does not stop lines being electrified. Similarly, a lot of private companies do not own the track - does not stop them putting prssure on te track owners.
You probably already know this, but I read earlier this week that Wes Edens (Fortress CEO) said " You’re going to have the train running [to] Orlando hopefully by Christmas time,” I hope so!!!! Even if not yet in revenue service, it will be interesting to see. Lol 😆
I have some comments. Let me start by saying the premise that these trains are really private is flawed. While the government subsidy is not direct as with Amtrak, they depend upon property tax free public right-of-way far more than is obvious. This has two effects on the service. using highways developed for automobile speeds, (even for Brightline West) means truly high speeds are out of the question. The Brightline West lines, if they even get built, can only serve passenger trains for the grades they will need to use along the freeways. Hence they are using technology developed in Europe, where government subsidies made these possible in the first place. That also means they are at least 20 years out of date. The use of diesel engines, even their relatively clean ones, there if sunny Florida is not at all cutting edge. The Teslas are, but mainly for show. The biggest problem I see is the minimal repurposing of the old Flagler rights of way, with so many grade crossings. 110 mph is even slower than the by now retired British Intercity HST diesel equipment, or the old PRR metroliners.
Brightline is receiving money from the infrastructure bill, so they're not 100% private. And let's not falsely imply that Brightline won't face the same thing that a public transportation company would face. They still have to go through environmental reviews, lawsuits, etc. Brightline west is still delayed, so until they actually start construction, they're no farther along than a public high speed railway.
They are privately owned though. And they'd still be doing the same thing without the funding from the bill. But when you get offered free money as a company, you usually say yes.
@@elijahhmarshall Tell Brightline West that lol. They NEED the money. These are fundings offered by grants. Brightline is becoming more and more a public-private partnership as the years pass. It’s not a bad thing, but it would irresponsible to assume otherwise.
@@banksrail Not too familiar with Brightline west, but I know in Florida its almost going to be a half billion dollars when its all said and done, they have only received 16 million from the government. I know that's nothing to sneeze at, but certainly could and would have been acquired privately. -Edit I think it was half a billion for the existing route and another billion to Orlando.
@@elijahhmarshallI doubt that it was only $16 million in total. Miami-Dade County allocated $76 million to build the Aventura station alone. Brightline is pulling funding from most of the counties it operates in.
I agree with some of the comments that they missed the boat in not electrifying the system. But one other factor plays a role - the decision for a grade level system and not an elevated system such as you see in Japan. The result: so many grade crossing deaths (leads the entire nation in deaths) that speeds between WPB and Miami are now 79 MPH. High speed rail my ass.
1. building an at grade "high speed" line is mistake" 2 Electrified lines, or even high speed lines, do not have to be elevated. Electrified lines can have at grade crossings, high speed trains should have grade separated crossing but does not need a fully elevated system.
High speed rail in the USA is 110+ MPH. Grade separation would've cost FAR more. Better to use the funds to get a whole network off the ground and upgrade over time. You get more people using the system and then when it comes to funding upgrades in the future, you'll have less pushback than if you went full bore 220 MPH like CAHSR.
@@Ven100 Thanks for your reply. Your first sentence shows our current mindset We should be aiming higher. Yes, I do realize how expensive a Japanese-style elevated line would be. But if the state of Florida was as invested and committed as the private backers, they would have partnered to do a true high speed rail system, at least from Miami to Orlando. What's the alternative, more highway congestion? More carbon emissions? Look, I really do like the new system. It's beautifully engineered and as you said, I hope it will lead to bigger things in the future.
@@AL5520 I would only add that HSR needs grade separations on the high speed sections, not necessarily everywhere. Although a completely segregated alignment is always better, many HSR lines interline with local trains closer to their destinations and cross at grade in (hopefully) protected grade crossings. What makes a train "High Speed" is the presence of grade separated high speed sections not the absence of grade crossings where it doesn't count. Obviously, the whole point is to have a fast train not to necessarily avoid grade crossings at all costs.
@@Ven100 There isn't a US HSR standard at 110mph or otherwise. Some argue that there isn't HSR in the US period so there can't be a standard. Because there's nothing to "standardize" or measure against that standard. Although I do disagree with that given that the Acela, well, exists. There is only an international standard that the US mostly agrees with. HSR starts at 150+mph for new lines and 125+mph for upgraded legacy lines. The whole point of the standard is to differentiate between the services that have invested in high speed operations vs. the ones that didn't. As far as to it being a lot more expensive, yeah, that's the whole point. If you do everything you need to do to get 150+mph true HSR service, you get the designation. If you run what is a conventional commuter-style service at conventional 79 or even 110mph with a completely unprotected ROW, then you shouldn't try to call yourself HSR because that's a completely different type of service. That's true from both a cost and usability perspective.
I love train I I still have hope that Americans will understand the importance of bringing back passenger rail service but Brighline is not the way to do it. 1. It is not "privately funded". Yes, it is a private company and there are some private investors but most of the investment comes from private activity bond financing and incentives which are bonds issued by/behalf of a State/Local Government to provide financing to a private company for a public interest project. In some cases, like this one, they are also tax exempted. In addition the state and local government will also pay for crossing maintenance. 2. It is not "high speed". The accepted world definition of high speed is trains going 250 km/h (150 mi/h) and above. in some cases a train on an existing upgraded line going 200km/h (125 mi/h) will be considered high speed, but this is a newly constructed line. BTW, there are other existing services in the US that reaches speeds of 110 mi/h-125 mi/h in some sections and no one calls them "high speed". 3. Like other important and expensive infrastructure building and maintaining passenger rail lines is not profitable on it's own, just like roads (the highway system, for example, was fully funded by the federal and the states in a 9 to 1 ratio an is maintained from tax payers money) but it creates economic growth which is why it should be funded by the government. 4. A good and successful public transport must be reliable as people will not use a service that stops it's service when it's not profitable. As mentioned in the video, Brightline started it's service in 2018 bit you failed to mention a "small" operational gap of 18 months Yes, it was "due to Covid" but any othe public transport service continued to operate (with some limitations but it worked). If people cannot rely on a service why would they use it and what will be the intensive to give up their car? In the train/transit community most are sure that Brightline won't succeed and that the authorities will have to bail it out and run it themselves, which is probably right and it's just a matter of time. 5. Florida already had a good approved plan for a true high speed service but it was cancelled by your favorite ex governor and current senator Rick Scott after he was elected in 2011 so basically you've replaced and actual high speed state owned line with a half baked "privately funded" line that the state will most likely need to buy in a few years.
I think it's a bit of a niche service, to carry European tourists from Orlando to Miami and back. (Who else is going to use it?) And I like the idea of using ordinary freight track, most of which is already in existence. Not only does it keep costs down, but those rails can continue to carry freight, something most HSR lines can't do. And looking at California's project, I feel Florida dodged a bullet. Maybe time will prove their approach to be the correct one. However, to me, it looks like they're getting stuck with a $100 billion train to nowhere.
Agree on all counts! Everything you said is exactly correct to a "T"! Kudos! I would only add that the Brightline West project, which is the entire and only basis for Brightline to call themselves HSR in any way, is at the moment complete vaporware. They literally have nothing ready for that project, only some vague marketing on their website and unrealistic unsubstantiated claims. They don't even have the design and engineering done for the route. They have already delayed that project twice just since Brightline took it over in from ExpressWest 2018, and have none of the funding. Almost everyone in the field seems to agree that this is a vanity project whose sole use is to allow Brightline to call themselves "HSR" and not a legitimate project that will get built anytime soon. As with their Florida project, they are actively pursuing both state and Federal dollars for Brightline West, making it a privately-owned, but publicly financed enterprise if it ever does happen. I'm all for Brightline expanding and building new services, but all this lying about what they are and what they will do makes me feel very uneasy. There already is a large contingent of people who are convinced that Brightline is "just trolling for condo sales" and will bolt from Florida (let alone other projects) as soon as they sell their last piece of land. They are losing money on the train to make money on real estate, and that sounds like the kind of thing that "private" rail companies do after they've milked the last cent out of their real estate holdings (that they got from the state to build the line in the first place). This is precisely what happened last time we tried subsidizing railroads with land grants and they all ended up bankrupt in the 60s and 70s.
@@kirk2767 $105 billion is the upper range of the estimated cost of the entire SF-LA line, so if CHSR does indeed end up costing than much for the entire route then it by definition won't be "a train to nowhere". The actual projected cost of the entire line is $87 billion. But of course the anti-rail media is intent on quoting the most scandalizing number available for views, no matter how untrue. The current section under construction (fully funded btw) actually will serve some pretty sizable cities. Fresno is about 0.5 million people in the city proper (and about 1 million in the metro area). Bakersfield is about 0.4 million in the city proper (and about 1 million in the metro area). Overall 6.5 million people live in the Central Valley where the current CHSR line is being built. That's definitely not nowhere. It's a larger population than half of the US states and almost 1/3 of the population of all of Florida. People really underestimate how large California actually is. By contrast, West Palm Beach is only 110k population. So by your metric Brightline is more of a train to nowhere, isn't it? Furthermore, Orlando proper is less than 0.3 million people, 100k less than Bakersfiled. So even after the extension, Brightline will be more of a train to nowhere than even just the current CHSR segment without the SF and LA extensions. (I know that Orlando has a metro of 2.7-ish million, but everybody seems intent on quoting the Central Valley city populations without their metros, so just keeping it apples to apples.)
@@randomscb-40charger78 Even if you take the entire Miami metro area, that’s still smaller than the Central Valley of California. That’s why Californians are so tickled when we hear out of staters claim that this area is nowhere. People wildly underestimate the size of California to a hilarious degree and end up with laughable conclusions.
Another reminder that Brightline currently is neither High Speed Rail nor “Higher” Speed Rail. And it won’t be High Speed Rail after the Orlando extension as that tops out below 125mph which is far below the 150mph threshold for new HSR track. Currently Brightline runs a very conventional commuter rail service with 79mph top speeds and 53mph average speed. That is not High Speed or “Higher” Speed. That’s regular speed. If you consider Brightline “Higher” speed then, say, the San Joaquins, which has an identical top and average speed, also needs to be classified in the same way. Same for all the other Amtrak services all around the country that no one classifies as “Higher” speed or HSR but run the exactly same type of service. Brightline’s extension, which will run primarily at 79 and 109mph throughout almost 100% of the route is barely going to qualify for the “higher” speed classification (let alone HSR) with a tiny section rated at 125mph on a small segment between Cocoa and Orlando. It barely deserves that classification though as that really is a tiny 125mph segment of new track. This was all discussed at length under Acela videos and more broadly. Both Brightline and the Acela will have/currently have very small segments where they will reach their top speeds of 125 and 160mph respectively. If Brightline will be classified as “Higher” speed (after the extension), then similarly the Acela needs to be classified as High Speed Rail based on the same criteria. And the Northeast Regional would have to be called “Higher” Speed rail too as it routinely runs at 125mph as well. Also, Brightline is privately _owned_ not privately funded! They have happily applied for and taken both state and Federal subsidies, including very generous land use permissions from the state that they didn’t pay a dime for!
Replying here as well for fact-checking purposes as others might read this and take it as gospel. US Code Title 49 Chapter 261 Section 26106 "4)High-speed rail.- The term “high-speed rail” means intercity passenger rail service that is reasonably expected to reach speeds of at least 110 miles per hour." So yes, according to US LAW, anything 110 MPH or faster is considered high speed rail, which north of West Palm Beach, Brightline will be travelling at said speeds (110-125 MPH). Folks, US codes & laws are available online for your consumption.
@@Ven100 That is incorrect as I have already outlined in another answer. That is a definition for the encouragement of investment in potential HSR corridors. Here is the actual and explicit definition of HSR from the same Title 49 section. U.S. Code Title 49 SUBTITLE V PART D CHAPTER 261 § 26105 "(2) the term “high-speed rail” means all forms of nonhighway ground transportation that run on rails or electromagnetic guideways providing transportation service which is- (A)reasonably expected to reach sustained speeds of more than 125 miles per hour; and (B)made available to members of the general public as passengers, but does not include rapid transit operations within an urban area that are not connected to the general rail system of transportation;"
@@TohaBgood2 Except that it's not incorrect. While I'm aware of Section 26105, Section 26106 is still enacted - therefore it's still US law. You can argue that one contradicts the other. Likewise one can simply say 110+ of 26106 is more inclusive. "Of the 54 titles, the following titles have been enacted into positive (statutory) law : 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 18, 23, 28, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 44, 46, 49, 51, and 54. When a title of the Code was enacted into positive law, the text of the title became legal evidence of the law."
@@TohaBgood2 Also, let it be known before you want to side with § 26105, as you were stating that NONE of the Brightline network would be considered High Speed rail, because it's not 150 MPH. Neither § 26105 or § 26106 backs up your original statement - they simply debunk it.
@@Ven100 The 110 mph threshold is specified for and explicitly related to “corridor development”. That’s why the requirement is lower than the overall requirement from the Definitions section. Essentially, they tried to make it easier to say Mission Accomplished and lowered the requirement while the corridor is in development. Yes, I wholly reject this definition as valid overall. They can call their in-development corridors whatever they want. It’s still not HSR by the overall rule until it reaches their own general threshold. The Definitions section explicitly gives an unbounded definition of what is considered HSR. And that is unequivocally above 125mph according to the law. I will remind you here that it was you who quoted this specific Title and Section. Does the law mean nothing to you if you don’t agree with it? Then why trot it out in the first place?
Why put 2 locomotives on a 4 car train. I don’t get it. This looks like an awful waste. A single locomotive could easily pull a 12 car passenger train. This doesn’t make sense
@@Mgameing123 Lol, are you kidding? The average speed of Brightline is 53-54mph. This is closer to half the average speed of the Acela. It's also identical to both the top speed and average speed of the Amtrak San Joaquins, which incidentally is using the exact same locomotives and is switching to the exact same Siemens Venture cars. Is the San Joaquins also HSR then? It's been around for years and years and carries more passengers than Brightline too.
Since you're a Worldwide Railfan I would very much appreciate having the speed mentioned/shown in km/h as well. In case I'm the only subscriber from outside the US (and other mph countries) please ingnore my comment.
Brightline needs to address all the accidents and deaths. Especially since they knew of a history of accidents along the line before service began, and failed to implement safety improvements, they could open themselves up to a class action suit in the future.
Thats well..... Thats not brightlines fault. It's the idiots who get in the way of them who are at fault. Seriously don't fuck with the train since the train will win. also they are kinda doing a favor by getting rid of the idiots.
California; We're gonna have the best high speed rail in the United States, offering great service, remain on budget and provide jobs and boundless opportunities while being made quickly and efficiently! Florida; Hold my orange juice.
Actually the only time train hit cars is when the Drivers go around the barriers which is illegal. They’ve had plenty of warnings. Those drivers do that for freight trains also.
American RAIL is in DECLINE , shitty TRAINS and shitty SERVICE. the upcoming Boing Company LOOP tunnels are FASTER, SAFER and Cheaper to build. they allow FAST travel between two points with Minimal stations needed. Tunnels are WATERPROOF and AIRTIGHT and can be Convered to HYPERLOOP. Tunnels allow FAST Travel up to 200 mph RATED Speed. even CARGO only LOOP Tunnels can be built.
"cheaper to build" lmao, youre funny. How many loop projects were canned so far? Why did the baltimore-DC loop fail? So if i didnt live near one of the two terminals, i guess fuck me right? Yea cargo loops with much less traffic capacity than a road, thats what we need. Hyperloop is much more expensive per km than High speed rail. (dont bring california into this, theyre expensive for no reason and swarmed with lawsuits factored into cost) expensive tunnels full of pressurized air spanning thousands of miles, oh yea thats not a target to terrorists Wow 200mph speed... when similar speeds are common in railways in other countries
I really hope one day they decide it's worth it to upgrade the tracks to electric so it can actually be a true high speed rail
Well, that still wouldn't make them HSR though. The international HSR standard calls for speeds above 150mph on new track and above 125mph on upgraded track. Brightline's new track is limited to 124mph and the upgraded track at 109mph. So even if they electrify after this current extension they would still only be able to qualify for the "Higher" speed designation, which is a lot more nebulous than HSR.
@@TohaBgood2 124mph is still a lot better than 79mph
Which US law determines "true" high speed rail? 🤔
There are different standards in America, based on FRA track classes. 90 mph to 150 mph is considered high-speed rail, while 160+ mph is ‘Very High-Speed Rail’ or VHSR. This is very different from the general European standard of high-speed rail, which only includes the VHSR speeds. More confusing is that VSHR seems to be a relatively new classification meant to better fit current conditions in the US.
@@Ven100 What does US law have with an HSR standard? USB-C is a standard universally accepted in the industry. What law enforces everyone to use USB-C and not some alternative standard?
In Amtrak's defense, the reason why the trains and stations are more utilitarian is because of funding and unlike brightline, Amtrak covers the whole nation and a lot of the stations and rolling stock need refurbishing and improvement and that will cost BILLIONS which luckily will be provided thanks to the infrastructure bill. But I think passenger rail deserves a lot more than $36 billion, I want passenger rail to have average speeds of 70+ mph, full electrification and more amenities in more train stations.
While it is nice, we do not necessarily need grandiose stations. If we want to be able to add services at a reasonable cost, stations are a good opportunity to save funds. Heck, stations can even be as simple as a platform with some ticket machines and shelters. Of course, I would encourage transit oriented development wherever possible.
@@tonywalters7298 I'm not talking about grandiose stations. I mean amenities like bathrooms and if possible, a cafe or diner so that passengers can get something to eat while they wait for the train or after getting off.
The infrastructure bill is mainly going to be used to fund highways.
@@KRYMauL how about we fund highways via tolls and higher registration taxes?
@@AlexCab_49 That's a great idea; however, it can only work for carpool lane because you are required to drive in most cities.
Brightline seems like a great operation and I only hope they continue to grow.
Having recently driven between Orlando and Miami (and back again), I can tell you that not only will this be substantially faster than driving (accidents and traffic are almost guaranteed every day), it will be much more comfortable. Driving in Miami is probably the worst part about Miami.
Last trip I did between the two cities was a nightmare! A 3-4 hour trip turned into 7 hours with a horrific accident on I-95 in Broward county that shut it completely down.
We need more dedicated high-speed routes across the country where feasable. This requires grade-separation, so whole new lines have to be built...
Houston to Dallas/Ft Worth is promising, so would lines from Chicago to say Detroit, or the Twin Cities. At this time it is just not practical for long-distance trains, so we will hafta continue to slog along with current Amtrak service for the for the time being...
I just want something in central ohio
Rode Brightline when I was in florida earlier this year and it is a fantastic service. Really excited to see what they do with Brightline West. The thing that bothered me about Miami is that Amtrak, Tri-Rail, and Brightline all have different terminus stations vs a single Miami union station.
Tri-Rail is supposed to join Brightline at their Miami terminus at some point
Amtrak is useless the other 2 are linked by metro
Miami Central will soon house tri rail trains, additionally the station is adjacent to overtown station which allows commuters to transfer onto the metro mover for local downtown Miami and Brickell trips or the metrorail for further commutes like coral gables, coconut grove and palmetto.
Brightline just sold one of the towers above their new Miami station for $400m+. Looks like that's the plan, makes me wonder what they'll do for Vegas.
I don't get why they didn't choose to electrify. They could have had much better acceleration, even less emissions and higher efficiency. Instead of two engines, they could would have just one, or even powered bogies throughout the train.
I imagine it's likely to do with the fact that freight trains on run on their main line. But they could run bi-mode trains that are diesel and then switch to electric at the last station before the Orland line.
Electrification is very, very, VERY expensive.
@@theofficerfactory2625 it is, and so are many things, but the ecological, operational and fuel savings are massive on the long run. Not electrifying because it's expensive is saying we rather save money than the environment, and that's silly
@@eannamcnamara9338 As they are operating on an existing freight railroad, it is up to them, not Brightline to dictate that...
@@eannamcnamara9338 Brightline was a proof of concept and was the first private rail operator in over 100 years. They had a very very tight budget and had to make this thing financially viable to prove that passenger rail in America still works, unlike every other attempt at private rail in the last century. They need to start somewhere so they started with freight rail, no grade-separation, and Diesel engines which are still 4-6x less emissions than driving from Orlando to Miami. For Brightline West which is LA to Vegas, they’ll have more money and more experience so they’re planning to electrify and run fast trains. You can’t get every single thing right on your first try, especially when it’s extremely financially risky and an unproven business model to banks who loan you the money. It makes sense how they’re rolling out their projects and I’m glad they didn’t overshoot the original project and end up shooting themselves in the foot like California HSR
I hope that they get the commuter line up and running along side their intercity rail service as well as completes there full scope operation of miami to tampa and miami to Jackson as well as gets brightline west up and running. They have a lot to look forward too.
even if it’s not true high speed, it’s still a high quality service up to par with the quality of european passenger rail and it’s definitely faster than amtrak
The future intercity line will be so dope. Having a train hit up all the high-ped spots like wynwood and the other areas is gonna so sick
I would love to see Brightline continue south from Tampa down to Naples and points in between. It would also be nice if it went up through Gainesville and Tallahassee to connect the universities/state capitol.
I suppose that would be nice, but remember the Orlando line still isn’t even open yet. Committing to that much would be over extending.
@@andrewreynolds4949 the slower you go the more expensive it gets
@@andrewreynolds4949 I meant like late 2030s. Starting with whichever line would generate the most revenue.
I'm hoping that Brightline can eventually create a commuter rail system in the Tampa Bay area, too. I think it would have more success as a private entity than a government one.
@@91_C4_FL I think that's what they're doing, they're working on the most feasible routes with Miami and southern Florida to Orlando and probably to Tampa. If those succeed then they might consider more at that point.
Nice new video on Brightline! I used to complain about Brightline running 125 mph diesels early-on and even compared them to 1970s Britain (UK is similar size to Florida) since Britain also started out with the diesel InterCity 125 trains. Now I'm fine with Brightline since they're expanding so much and I think they're doing a more decent job. I'm still envious of high speed rail in other states since I'm from southwestern Pennsylvania and having a separate electrified HSR in my state would be too expensive and too long to build from the more electrified east to the diesel powered west.
Brightline is doing it right. Get the trains rolling and passengers moving. As the service continues to get more popular, then we start upgrading the infrastructure.
@@Ven100 This is exactly what many people complaining about electrification don't understand. Before investing billions into electrifying the rail, let's get a profitable company going by getting people moving. Then we can talk about upgrades to the line.
@@RedNuii They're the same people complaining about grade separation and the train doesn't go 220 MPH.
we still got 125mph diesels.
Now we got 140mph (limited to 125mph) Bi modes along with some electrics.
125mph is still 125mph aka quite fast.
Diesel is good for a start then have bi modes and electrification in stages.
I wonder if the success of Brightline (ridership was up to 3x what was forecast) will help the Texas Central Railway project and attract new investors.
I love that the Del Mar alignment is in your intro
Really nice piece of content here. Thumbs up!
Brightline should extend past Tampa to Panama City, Destin, and Pensacola next!
How about start with finishing the Orlando route before distant speculation takes over?
@@andrewreynolds4949 it’ll be open by Christmas dude chill
@@gumbyshrimp2606 yeah but brightline is waiting to see if the line is actually successful before making expansion plans
It won't get to my neck of the woods anytime soon, in Southwest Florida but I can hope it may.
Just a heads up, the Disney Spring's station is not happening now, they made a new revised line that goes through Orlando and connects with Sunrail (Orlando's commuter train) and will now have a station next to the convention center which also not that far away from Universals new park Epic Universe. Disney was not happy about that so they said no, but Universal is not only on board with this, but they are also going to help fund the convention center station. There will be a station near Disney World just not on their property.
I’m wondering how bright line can let Tri rail run on the same line because they’ll be going at such different speeds. Will Tri-rail go to a side line one bright line comes along?
TRI-Rail runs on CSX tracks & Brightline runs on FEC tracks. TRI-Rail will only have access to Brightline tracks in Miami-Dade County when it will use their Main station in downtown Miami which will be for a few miles only..
I can't find any info on this anywhere, but does brightline plan to ever upgrade the miami to west palm rail line to the 150 mph gradethey are using for the orlando to tampa leg? Seems like they could shave off another hour from the full trip if the whole length was upgraded to the 150 mph grade. I guess they just started with the low speed rail to test the waters and bring in some initial revenue?
The Siemens Valero trainsets are used on the Eurostar, ICE, TCDD, and soon will be used for Brightline.
Brightline West to be specific
@@adventuresofamtrakcascades301 Yeah I know. I just put Brightline because that is the company name.
Siemens has sell the velaros to russia, china and spain too.
And in the future they will run in egypt.
Dang they run in lots of places. Imagine seeing one with an Amtrak paint scheme. I don't even have an idea of what it would look like.
@@NorthAtlanticRails probably not far off from the Avelia.
very good and informative and your music choice was fire intro and outro
Shouldn’t it be the Southeast Corridor Service?
If it went up to Georgia then you could call it that
I really hope they succeed but I am skeptical. After factoring in transportation to and from the stations many potential passengers may take a pass.
They have said drawing 10% of travelers off the interstate would keep the train self-sufficient
Brightline has Tesla cars and vans that transports people to their stations.
Why does the Orlando station give me vibes of Secaucus junction
Glad it's around. Looking forward to when it's nationalised.
Can’t wait to ride! To make it even faster, all the grades/crossings would have to be eliminated, roads having bridges or tunnels, or accidents will continue.
Nice Video! Interesting as always.
The Roaming Railfan has been phenomenal with his updates that show off various points of all of the construction that's been going on.
I will second The Roaming Railfan. Excellent well made work
Another positive vote on that from me
Common American commuter rail W
Watch Brightline West be done before CHSR has tracks down
Nice 😎
Great video! Love the series deep dives, wonderful work!
Isn't Richard Branson and Virgin involved with Brightline?
Branson left due to his huge loses with Virgin. So far no-one is dumb enough to replace him.
I'm amazed at how fast brightline has been constructed. They are absolutely leaving California in the dust
they are not at all comparable
California doesn't have any tracks, or roadbed, or trains, or....
I have quite a bit of hope for Brightline, it seems they truly have a lot going for them, we can only wait for what it will become in the future
Why didn´t they electrify the line right from the beginning?
budget cuts also freight operators.
Hurricanes.
Keep in mind that Amtrak doesn't own infrastructure (except NE corridor)! So the comparison is worth it, but is not really fair! 🤔 But good video afterall! Who knows? Maybe one day Amtrak will be the 'Deutsche Bahn' or 'SBB' of the US! 😉
Hmmm I'd say closer to scotrail here in the UK.
Since the freight is still separately operated.
@@davidty2006 but rail transport in UK is totally vertically separated. 🤔
@@davidty2006 or is it? 🤔
That would require the government to actually fund it.
So there are no plans to electrify the florida line?
No
With hurricanes knocking down the power lines? Riiiggghhhhttt...
An interesting case study too say the least, let's see how long it lasts
I'll give you 10:1 odds that Brightline abandons the line as soon as their state subsidies run out and they sell their last condo. Hopefully Amtrak takes over the service after Brightline dies off rather than a state service. Amtrak will now run the exact same Charger Loco + Venture car combo and will be better positioned to continue maintenance and operations on those 10 trainsets.
I don’t think Brightline is receiving big subsidies. I sincerely doubt Amtrak would take over from them if they fail and I’m sure they wouldn’t do as good of a job. The most Amtrak involvement I could see ever happening is buying the train sets off them.
@@andrewreynolds4949 That's probably what will happen, amtrak will get a deal on the train sets and equipment. But maybe Florida could intergreate it into something state run. I doubt the Republicans would do that but if they don't it's just gonna be land that costs probably up too a billion too repurpose. Idk tho
Brightline is over one billion dollars in debt. The routes they chose are also serviced by airlines, interstate highways and the turnpike. They do have excellent publicist, but you need to get info from the accountants.
@@jeffhallel8211 I was not aware of that, Florida be wildin😂
I can't see this being any more useful than just driving to Orlando and back... With the lines for security or lines for anything else, by the time you get on the train and even disembark would be the same if you just drove... Its just gonna be an experience rather than actual purpose...
Not really. The lines are quite short. There is horrible traffic on the toll roads and sometimes accident, and people driving while texting and drinking alcohol and changing lanes without a signal so if nothing else you avoid stress and traffic.
This type of infrastructure is great for people who don't want to drive, people who want to do things on the ride through, people who can't drive, people who don't own cars, and many other reasons. It also has the potential to be cheaper too. Considering this is competitive with driving, it's a practical choice many people will make.
@@stuartdilts2729 u have a point like tourist who don’t have rides, can have it easy travel to 4 destinations pretty easily and the people who live right next to the station would be easy for them too, which can be a decent chunk of cars off the road but I was think of people outside the stations like the people who live in the suburbs of the cities… By the time they get to the station and whatever it’s gonna be the same… Also they said that it would cost around the $100 range for Orlando to south Florida, for one way ticket, which is kinda the same cost if on car…
@@enjoyslearningandtravel7957 basically an experience… we gonna see though, it obviously has the potential to be great like in Europe where it can replace the car and airplane… Maybe if they can tweak it just enough to reduce the time to travel under 3 hours it definitely would be game changing
@@stuartdilts2729 yes! ! I completely agree. I have friends in Florida that can’t drive anymore, well older friends and well to, or are afraid to drive because of a very bad accident that someone ran into them and they had to escape from their car with a fire, plus I can drive but I don’t like the stress of driving on a toll road and we all live in Florida.
And we are excited to take it yes yes yes some of us are rail fans and some of us it is just practical
What about Jacksonville?
Atlanta is next.
Damn it would be crazy if congress gave Amtrak half a billion dollars to compete with Brightline
No that would mean graft and corruption like in California.
I love these videos. Keep them up!
"airpline-style seats"... I don't know if that's what people are looking for ^^'
_Definitely_ not the comfort level that people are expecting from a train! The whole point of taking the train is so that you aren't stuck in a flying tin can with 0.4 inches of legroom and pinched between to chubsters!
@@TohaBgood2 It's better than the felt seats that may US trains have.
@@KRYMauL Actually, the seats on the Venture cars are a little too airline-like and too stiff for my taste. Normally, Amtrak trains have ridiculously comfortable seats.
But the point of our conversation here was that airline seats suck and are widely reviled. Describing something as being like an airline seat is an insult not a compliment. That’s what we were making fun of.
@@TohaBgood2 Airline style seats isn't seat quallity it's the layout.
The thing that sucks about bright line is that you can’t Rail Fan at those stations if you’re under 16 or 18
wait so your not allowed inside the stations without an adult? Thats complete garbage
@@Mgameing123 that’s was my experience it could be different
Eww why would you be at those sketchy stations alone? Especially in a place like Florida.
@@Adumzzinthehouse never been to Florida
@@natenae8635 I was talking to OP, he was mad how he wasn’t able to go inside the station without an adult, but that’s just dangerous especially in a place like Florida, but there are much worse places
Idk if they'll get the funds but they should really start to grade separate more of the corridor. We can keep blaming bad drivers and mental health, but clearly there's an infrastructure issue if collisions keep happening so often.
hmmm.
Well really it's both.
Bad infrastrucutre + idiot drivers.
They should really atleast for now till a grade separated pass can be built put quad barriers across the road so drivers don't simply go around them.
brightline electrification when
When you figure out how to stop hurricanes from knocking down the wires.
Do you think more privatized trains should be available like this or more public trains like tri rails?
Even this train is barely "private". Unlike what people like to say, Brightline applies for and takes government money whenever they can get it. All of this is public information yet some people continue to pretend like Brightline isn't subsidized. In reality they are privately-owned, but publicly-funded. That's a bad idea if you ask me. Giving some private company money to build a rail line that they will own seems like the latest and greatest in corporate socialism nightmares rather than the libertarian daydream that most rail fans seem to be afflicted with.
I think a semi-private company like Briteline is the way to go since the politics of rail are questionable at best. the private companies don't have to worry about votes and donation influence. one rail has evidence for its value in the US the government may be able to scale it up faster than private but that only comes when it's beneficial to them to do so.
I do not think Brightline is perfect by any means; it was an egregious misstep to not grade separate or electrify the FEC corridor between Miami and Cocoa. Brightline would have been able to achieve true high speed services on a grade separated line with overhead catenary.
Due To Tons Of Train - Other Vehicle Accidents. Since 2020, Brightline Are Now Called "Darkline". That's Very Better Names Than Original Name. The Original Name + Train - Other Vehicle Accidents. It Considered "Ironic" At All.
That would've been crazy expensive to do grade separate it, and Brightline is not in the same shoes as CalTrain, which, as part of CalMod, is not only doing electrification, but also some grade separations. Because CalTrain's network is fully owned by them, it's easier to do grade separation, whereas with Brightline, they have to work alongside FEC so they can still provide access to FEC's yards and access to customers. Brightline is in an awkward spot as a result of freight trains still running on their lines.
@@yaraihan Yeah, because it’s TOTALLY Brightline’s fault people in Florida don’t know how to get out of the way of a speeding train.
@@randomscb-40charger78 They actually are in the same position. Caltrain also operates on freight ROW. They operate alongside Union Pacific. Caltrain might own the SF to Tamien portion, but UP owns everything else. UP still operates freight on the Caltrain owned portion on off service ours.
@@yaraihan honestly its a great way to say thats its not my fault that i disobbeyed the level crossings
Brightline seems pretty nice. If I went to Florida, I’d give it a try. I hope it keeps to improve as well.
BTW IDOT ordered the Amtrak Midwest cars, not Amtrak Midwest. They are separate entities.
They really made a mistake not electrifying. I know they were trying to minimize startup costs, but operations would be so much faster and more efficient if they electrified.
Completely agree! Btw, Brightline absolutely does have the financial capabilities to electrify the line; extra tall catenary to accommodate the FEC freight gauge does exist in other countries. Simply put, Brightline foolishly chose not to electrify since diesels are more the less the standard in North America.
@@toadscoper4575 no its just simply because they wanted to first see how service could run and how busy it would get. When new trains are needed I think THEY will run with overhead power
@@Mgameing123 so they bought new trains that they'll have to replace if they electrify? God, private companies are so short sighted, I hate them all
Brightline absolutely does not have the funding to electrify the line and they don’t need to.
If they do in the future I’m sure it won’t be for another several decades, when rolling stock replacement is beginning to look feasible. (Still, there’s no chance of that happening.)
Speaking of ‘private companies’ being stupid and wasteful? Amtrak is the one who is planning to replace their new electric locomotives already. ‘Government efficiency’ is an oxymoron.
@@andrewreynolds4949 what is Amtrak replacing where? Brightline is using standard diesel electric locomotives developed for Amtrak for faux higher speed rail.
In any case, the right of way is property of private freight rail companies which is part of why they haven't been electrified, unlike in Europe where railways are wholely state owned
I wont class this as high speed. I mean there are trains that casually run at 200km per hr in the UK which we still do not class as high speed.
Brightline doesn't call itself high speed.
Not to diminish the achievement, but this is not "high speed rail". It barely does 110 mph at the moment.
Brightline has never claimed high speed.
Nice to see a new passenger line in America but surprised that electrification was not envisaged. What is the love with polluting (regardless of how efficient they are supposed to be) diesel engines that side of the pond?
They do have the ability to electrify, (the bridges have places for the pylons) but I assume due to the face that it's not completely grade separated, as well as the double stacks they share the FEC mainline on the east coast stretch. Brightline West will be electrified
Since much of the rail lines here are owned by freight companies such as BNSF and Union Pacific, they have no incentive to electrify their lines even though that would be great for passenger rail. Much of the lines Amtrak runs on is not owned by them so that is why passenger rail here is pretty bad.
Internal combustion engines have a fantastic power-to-weight ratio and are very cost-effective
@@smokeybandit9760 Pretty poor excuse. A lot of lines in Europe are not grade separated - does not stop lines being electrified. Similarly, a lot of private companies do not own the track - does not stop them putting prssure on te track owners.
@Zaydan Naufal Last time I looked at the subject, Albania's rail service was almost non-existent.
You probably already know this, but I read earlier this week that Wes Edens (Fortress CEO) said " You’re going to have the train running [to] Orlando hopefully by Christmas time,” I hope so!!!! Even if not yet in revenue service, it will be interesting to see. Lol 😆
They're going tom open the station as early as September or so I heard.
I hope that’s True that Brightline starts by Christmas time or before. I’m really looking forward to using the train then.
Who's here for 2024 cause FINALLY the Second HSR project Brightline west begun!!
I have some comments. Let me start by saying the premise that these trains are really private is flawed. While the government subsidy is not direct as with Amtrak, they depend upon property tax free public right-of-way far more than is obvious. This has two effects on the service. using highways developed for automobile speeds, (even for Brightline West) means truly high speeds are out of the question. The Brightline West lines, if they even get built, can only serve passenger trains for the grades they will need to use along the freeways.
Hence they are using technology developed in Europe, where government subsidies made these possible in the first place. That also means they are at least 20 years out of date. The use of diesel engines, even their relatively clean ones, there if sunny Florida is not at all cutting edge. The Teslas are, but mainly for show. The biggest problem I see is the minimal repurposing of the old Flagler rights of way, with so many grade crossings. 110 mph is even slower than the by now retired British Intercity HST diesel equipment, or the old PRR metroliners.
Brightline is receiving money from the infrastructure bill, so they're not 100% private. And let's not falsely imply that Brightline won't face the same thing that a public transportation company would face. They still have to go through environmental reviews, lawsuits, etc. Brightline west is still delayed, so until they actually start construction, they're no farther along than a public high speed railway.
They are privately owned though. And they'd still be doing the same thing without the funding from the bill. But when you get offered free money as a company, you usually say yes.
@@elijahhmarshall Tell Brightline West that lol. They NEED the money. These are fundings offered by grants. Brightline is becoming more and more a public-private partnership as the years pass. It’s not a bad thing, but it would irresponsible to assume otherwise.
@@banksrail Not too familiar with Brightline west, but I know in Florida its almost going to be a half billion dollars when its all said and done, they have only received 16 million from the government. I know that's nothing to sneeze at, but certainly could and would have been acquired privately.
-Edit
I think it was half a billion for the existing route and another billion to Orlando.
@@banksrail Thank you for making my point.
@@elijahhmarshallI doubt that it was only $16 million in total. Miami-Dade County allocated $76 million to build the Aventura station alone. Brightline is pulling funding from most of the counties it operates in.
Day 2 HSRW!!! Fuck yeah! I know that may seem hyperbolic and patronizing, but I promise it’s not- I am stoked about High Speed Rail in the US.
And first private company since post WW2
I agree with some of the comments that they missed the boat in not electrifying the system. But one other factor plays a role - the decision for a grade level system and not an elevated system such as you see in Japan. The result: so many grade crossing deaths (leads the entire nation in deaths) that speeds between WPB and Miami are now 79 MPH. High speed rail my ass.
1. building an at grade "high speed" line is mistake"
2 Electrified lines, or even high speed lines, do not have to be elevated. Electrified lines can have at grade crossings, high speed trains should have grade separated crossing but does not need a fully elevated system.
High speed rail in the USA is 110+ MPH. Grade separation would've cost FAR more. Better to use the funds to get a whole network off the ground and upgrade over time. You get more people using the system and then when it comes to funding upgrades in the future, you'll have less pushback than if you went full bore 220 MPH like CAHSR.
@@Ven100 Thanks for your reply. Your first sentence shows our current mindset We should be aiming higher. Yes, I do realize how expensive a Japanese-style elevated line would be. But if the state of Florida was as invested and committed as the private backers, they would have partnered to do a true high speed rail system, at least from Miami to Orlando. What's the alternative, more highway congestion? More carbon emissions? Look, I really do like the new system. It's beautifully engineered and as you said, I hope it will lead to bigger things in the future.
@@AL5520 I would only add that HSR needs grade separations on the high speed sections, not necessarily everywhere. Although a completely segregated alignment is always better, many HSR lines interline with local trains closer to their destinations and cross at grade in (hopefully) protected grade crossings. What makes a train "High Speed" is the presence of grade separated high speed sections not the absence of grade crossings where it doesn't count. Obviously, the whole point is to have a fast train not to necessarily avoid grade crossings at all costs.
@@Ven100 There isn't a US HSR standard at 110mph or otherwise. Some argue that there isn't HSR in the US period so there can't be a standard. Because there's nothing to "standardize" or measure against that standard. Although I do disagree with that given that the Acela, well, exists.
There is only an international standard that the US mostly agrees with. HSR starts at 150+mph for new lines and 125+mph for upgraded legacy lines. The whole point of the standard is to differentiate between the services that have invested in high speed operations vs. the ones that didn't.
As far as to it being a lot more expensive, yeah, that's the whole point. If you do everything you need to do to get 150+mph true HSR service, you get the designation. If you run what is a conventional commuter-style service at conventional 79 or even 110mph with a completely unprotected ROW, then you shouldn't try to call yourself HSR because that's a completely different type of service. That's true from both a cost and usability perspective.
bright line rust belt/bright line midwest lol
I love train I I still have hope that Americans will understand the importance of bringing back passenger rail service but Brighline is not the way to do it.
1. It is not "privately funded". Yes, it is a private company and there are some private investors but most of the investment comes from private activity bond financing and incentives which are bonds issued by/behalf of a State/Local Government to provide financing to a private company for a public interest project. In some cases, like this one, they are also tax exempted. In addition the state and local government will also pay for crossing maintenance.
2. It is not "high speed". The accepted world definition of high speed is trains going 250 km/h (150 mi/h) and above. in some cases a train on an existing upgraded line going 200km/h (125 mi/h) will be considered high speed, but this is a newly constructed line. BTW, there are other existing services in the US that reaches speeds of 110 mi/h-125 mi/h in some sections and no one calls them "high speed".
3. Like other important and expensive infrastructure building and maintaining passenger rail lines is not profitable on it's own, just like roads (the highway system, for example, was fully funded by the federal and the states in a 9 to 1 ratio an is maintained from tax payers money) but it creates economic growth which is why it should be funded by the government.
4. A good and successful public transport must be reliable as people will not use a service that stops it's service when it's not profitable. As mentioned in the video, Brightline started it's service in 2018 bit you failed to mention a "small" operational gap of 18 months Yes, it was "due to Covid" but any othe public transport service continued to operate (with some limitations but it worked). If people cannot rely on a service why would they use it and what will be the intensive to give up their car?
In the train/transit community most are sure that Brightline won't succeed and that the authorities will have to bail it out and run it themselves, which is probably right and it's just a matter of time.
5. Florida already had a good approved plan for a true high speed service but it was cancelled by your favorite ex governor and current senator Rick Scott after he was elected in 2011 so basically you've replaced and actual high speed state owned line with a half baked "privately funded" line that the state will most likely need to buy in a few years.
I think it's a bit of a niche service, to carry European tourists from Orlando to Miami and back. (Who else is going to use it?) And I like the idea of using ordinary freight track, most of which is already in existence. Not only does it keep costs down, but those rails can continue to carry freight, something most HSR lines can't do.
And looking at California's project, I feel Florida dodged a bullet. Maybe time will prove their approach to be the correct one. However, to me, it looks like they're getting stuck with a $100 billion train to nowhere.
Agree on all counts! Everything you said is exactly correct to a "T"! Kudos!
I would only add that the Brightline West project, which is the entire and only basis for Brightline to call themselves HSR in any way, is at the moment complete vaporware. They literally have nothing ready for that project, only some vague marketing on their website and unrealistic unsubstantiated claims. They don't even have the design and engineering done for the route. They have already delayed that project twice just since Brightline took it over in from ExpressWest 2018, and have none of the funding. Almost everyone in the field seems to agree that this is a vanity project whose sole use is to allow Brightline to call themselves "HSR" and not a legitimate project that will get built anytime soon.
As with their Florida project, they are actively pursuing both state and Federal dollars for Brightline West, making it a privately-owned, but publicly financed enterprise if it ever does happen.
I'm all for Brightline expanding and building new services, but all this lying about what they are and what they will do makes me feel very uneasy. There already is a large contingent of people who are convinced that Brightline is "just trolling for condo sales" and will bolt from Florida (let alone other projects) as soon as they sell their last piece of land. They are losing money on the train to make money on real estate, and that sounds like the kind of thing that "private" rail companies do after they've milked the last cent out of their real estate holdings (that they got from the state to build the line in the first place). This is precisely what happened last time we tried subsidizing railroads with land grants and they all ended up bankrupt in the 60s and 70s.
@@kirk2767 $105 billion is the upper range of the estimated cost of the entire SF-LA line, so if CHSR does indeed end up costing than much for the entire route then it by definition won't be "a train to nowhere". The actual projected cost of the entire line is $87 billion. But of course the anti-rail media is intent on quoting the most scandalizing number available for views, no matter how untrue.
The current section under construction (fully funded btw) actually will serve some pretty sizable cities. Fresno is about 0.5 million people in the city proper (and about 1 million in the metro area). Bakersfield is about 0.4 million in the city proper (and about 1 million in the metro area). Overall 6.5 million people live in the Central Valley where the current CHSR line is being built. That's definitely not nowhere. It's a larger population than half of the US states and almost 1/3 of the population of all of Florida. People really underestimate how large California actually is.
By contrast, West Palm Beach is only 110k population. So by your metric Brightline is more of a train to nowhere, isn't it?
Furthermore, Orlando proper is less than 0.3 million people, 100k less than Bakersfiled. So even after the extension, Brightline will be more of a train to nowhere than even just the current CHSR segment without the SF and LA extensions.
(I know that Orlando has a metro of 2.7-ish million, but everybody seems intent on quoting the Central Valley city populations without their metros, so just keeping it apples to apples.)
@@TohaBgood2 The difference is that West Palm Beach, despite having a lower population, is still part of the Miami area, so it's not exactly nowhere.
@@randomscb-40charger78 Even if you take the entire Miami metro area, that’s still smaller than the Central Valley of California. That’s why Californians are so tickled when we hear out of staters claim that this area is nowhere. People wildly underestimate the size of California to a hilarious degree and end up with laughable conclusions.
125km/hr isn't a bad speed, but no-it isn't high speed.....yet.
125 MPH / 201 KMH, definitely high speed according to actual US law.
good video!
Wish AMerican government will swoop in and electrify the entire line of tracks
Not with hurricanes knocking over the power poles.
@@tonyburzio4107 The NEC is still electrified to this day despite Hurricane Anges
Another reminder that Brightline currently is neither High Speed Rail nor “Higher” Speed Rail. And it won’t be High Speed Rail after the Orlando extension as that tops out below 125mph which is far below the 150mph threshold for new HSR track.
Currently Brightline runs a very conventional commuter rail service with 79mph top speeds and 53mph average speed. That is not High Speed or “Higher” Speed. That’s regular speed. If you consider Brightline “Higher” speed then, say, the San Joaquins, which has an identical top and average speed, also needs to be classified in the same way. Same for all the other Amtrak services all around the country that no one classifies as “Higher” speed or HSR but run the exactly same type of service.
Brightline’s extension, which will run primarily at 79 and 109mph throughout almost 100% of the route is barely going to qualify for the “higher” speed classification (let alone HSR) with a tiny section rated at 125mph on a small segment between Cocoa and Orlando. It barely deserves that classification though as that really is a tiny 125mph segment of new track.
This was all discussed at length under Acela videos and more broadly. Both Brightline and the Acela will have/currently have very small segments where they will reach their top speeds of 125 and 160mph respectively. If Brightline will be classified as “Higher” speed (after the extension), then similarly the Acela needs to be classified as High Speed Rail based on the same criteria. And the Northeast Regional would have to be called “Higher” Speed rail too as it routinely runs at 125mph as well.
Also, Brightline is privately _owned_ not privately funded! They have happily applied for and taken both state and Federal subsidies, including very generous land use permissions from the state that they didn’t pay a dime for!
Replying here as well for fact-checking purposes as others might read this and take it as gospel.
US Code Title 49 Chapter 261 Section 26106 "4)High-speed rail.-
The term “high-speed rail” means intercity passenger rail service that is reasonably expected to reach speeds of at least 110 miles per hour."
So yes, according to US LAW, anything 110 MPH or faster is considered high speed rail, which north of West Palm Beach, Brightline will be travelling at said speeds (110-125 MPH). Folks, US codes & laws are available online for your consumption.
@@Ven100 That is incorrect as I have already outlined in another answer. That is a definition for the encouragement of investment in potential HSR corridors.
Here is the actual and explicit definition of HSR from the same Title 49 section.
U.S. Code Title 49 SUBTITLE V PART D CHAPTER 261 § 26105
"(2) the term “high-speed rail” means all forms of nonhighway ground transportation that run on rails or electromagnetic guideways providing transportation service which is-
(A)reasonably expected to reach sustained speeds of more than 125 miles per hour; and
(B)made available to members of the general public as passengers,
but does not include rapid transit operations within an urban area that are not connected to the general rail system of transportation;"
@@TohaBgood2 Except that it's not incorrect. While I'm aware of Section 26105, Section 26106 is still enacted - therefore it's still US law. You can argue that one contradicts the other. Likewise one can simply say 110+ of 26106 is more inclusive.
"Of the 54 titles, the following titles have been enacted into positive (statutory) law : 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 18, 23, 28, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 44, 46, 49, 51, and 54. When a title of the Code was enacted into positive law, the text of the title became legal evidence of the law."
@@TohaBgood2 Also, let it be known before you want to side with § 26105, as you were stating that NONE of the Brightline network would be considered High Speed rail, because it's not 150 MPH. Neither § 26105 or § 26106 backs up your original statement - they simply debunk it.
@@Ven100 The 110 mph threshold is specified for and explicitly related to “corridor development”. That’s why the requirement is lower than the overall requirement from the Definitions section. Essentially, they tried to make it easier to say Mission Accomplished and lowered the requirement while the corridor is in development. Yes, I wholly reject this definition as valid overall. They can call their in-development corridors whatever they want. It’s still not HSR by the overall rule until it reaches their own general threshold.
The Definitions section explicitly gives an unbounded definition of what is considered HSR. And that is unequivocally above 125mph according to the law.
I will remind you here that it was you who quoted this specific Title and Section. Does the law mean nothing to you if you don’t agree with it? Then why trot it out in the first place?
Hope Americans wake up and support Brightline, Amtrack, ETC. Can't believe Americans were blind for so many years
Flying is cheaper over long distances.
Why put 2 locomotives on a 4 car train. I don’t get it. This looks like an awful waste. A single locomotive could easily pull a 12 car passenger train. This doesn’t make sense
*My name is Pensyfan the Brightline Stan and I approve this message.*
I wonder if building through a desert is faster?
Sure. Not a lot of passengers though.
79mph is not higher speed.
Yeah, Metro North and LIRR go that fast, and NJT hits 100 MPH on the NEC.
That's like commuter rail speed, but it's better than Amtrak in most of their routes.
@@trijetz3562 Most Amtrak trains already hit 79mph.
but its better than the average speed of the ACELA express.
@@Mgameing123 Lol, are you kidding? The average speed of Brightline is 53-54mph. This is closer to half the average speed of the Acela. It's also identical to both the top speed and average speed of the Amtrak San Joaquins, which incidentally is using the exact same locomotives and is switching to the exact same Siemens Venture cars. Is the San Joaquins also HSR then? It's been around for years and years and carries more passengers than Brightline too.
Since you're a Worldwide Railfan I would very much appreciate having the speed mentioned/shown in km/h as well. In case I'm the only subscriber from outside the US (and other mph countries) please ingnore my comment.
Despite his name I’ve noticed he mostly just covers stuff from the US
@@andrewreynolds4949 Oh, I'm fine with that although the channel description says different. Simply picked a different channel. 🙂
@@teotik8071 I do get wanting units in metric too, I watch plenty of things that tend to measure in metric rather than imperial units like I'm used to
I've noticed CHSR fans sneer that Brightline isn't 'real high speed rail' when you point out that CHSR is _and will always be_ a failure.
tri rail is gonna be put out of business
Tri Rail is a local commuter system, not an intercity route. At some point they will interchange at Brightline’s Miami terminus
Never in the Northeast. Great information
Brightline needs to address all the accidents and deaths. Especially since they knew of a history of accidents along the line before service began, and failed to implement safety improvements, they could open themselves up to a class action suit in the future.
Thats well.....
Thats not brightlines fault.
It's the idiots who get in the way of them who are at fault.
Seriously don't fuck with the train since the train will win.
also they are kinda doing a favor by getting rid of the idiots.
California; We're gonna have the best high speed rail in the United States, offering great service, remain on budget and provide jobs and boundless opportunities while being made quickly and efficiently!
Florida; Hold my orange juice.
Cool.
Now nationalize it.
Nationalize a train that doesn't cross state lines?
Nothing messes up a railroad like government intervention.
@@tonyburzio4107 have you been to Europe?
i would never ride this train. It hits cars like nothing. typically 5 cars a week.
Actually the only time train hit cars is when the Drivers go around the barriers which is illegal. They’ve had plenty of warnings. Those drivers do that for freight trains also.
So you want Brightline to address the stupidity of Drivers who ignore Railroad crossing signals & barriers and just sit on the tracks? Hmmm OK !
8:02 TESLA MODEL Y
American RAIL is in DECLINE , shitty TRAINS and shitty SERVICE.
the upcoming Boing Company LOOP tunnels are FASTER, SAFER and Cheaper to build.
they allow FAST travel between two points with Minimal stations needed.
Tunnels are WATERPROOF and AIRTIGHT and can be Convered to HYPERLOOP.
Tunnels allow FAST Travel up to 200 mph RATED Speed.
even CARGO only LOOP Tunnels can be built.
"cheaper to build" lmao, youre funny. How many loop projects were canned so far? Why did the baltimore-DC loop fail? So if i didnt live near one of the two terminals, i guess fuck me right?
Yea cargo loops with much less traffic capacity than a road, thats what we need.
Hyperloop is much more expensive per km than High speed rail. (dont bring california into this, theyre expensive for no reason and swarmed with lawsuits factored into cost)
expensive tunnels full of pressurized air spanning thousands of miles, oh yea thats not a target to terrorists
Wow 200mph speed... when similar speeds are common in railways in other countries