Swords & Sorcery - why is this game either completely hated or insanely loved
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2021
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Игры
It’s the AI. Period. Only time I’ve ever seen enemies that, just based on cards, manage to act the same way they would if I were DM’ing them.
Totally agree .
i agree
Think part of it is more abstraction with the larger areas (compared to smaller spaces). But I did get tired of predictable AI - prefer to play as/against DM (Star Wars Imperial Assault) or more random enemy (Blackstone Fortress)
@@seahawk8601 does the newest version fixes AI?
More A than I
I'd say it's due to the overabundance of chits and so many symbols to keep track of is why some could dislike S&S. I personally am indifferent. It sits on the shelf, but I like looking at it so it stays.
lol good one!
Once I saw how expensive it was going to be to complete my Descent 2nd Edition collection I decided to get in to this game. I have been happy with the games and while its not Descent I do enjoy most aspects of the game.
Nice!
Love this game. I’ve fully painted it as well and even leverages your video Rob to paint Vastaryous. I do think the game has a little bit of a learning curve as there is a lot to manage, probably not a great first dungeon crawl game for some. But the game covers so much in the details from character development, numerous conditions and unique AI that really drives the game. This is certainly my top dungeon crawler.
well said and thank you
Thanks for the content, I'm looking to get this game should I get this core set or the original one? Which one has more game time? Thanks Carlos
this one its a better version
Working on a brand new game room been a long time coming which dungeon crawler are you bringing when I'm done
All of them
There is a new KS launching soon for the game. How does it holds up a year later since the video?
Have you played Tanares Adventure / Arena the Contest? I heard that the game is considered pretty close to DnD 4e as well. Curious on how they match up.
Check out the video I did on that kickstarter
Thanks for another great video and commentary Rob. Been watching the ones on “Descent” lately with great interest and get your feelings about the whole thing. And just a bit ago I’m reading through the newly launched Arydia info on KS and I’m like “THIS is what Rob wants from Descent!” or something like it in the same direction, never mind the theme or price tag! The mechanisms are all board game, and the ideas seem fresh (to me) and innovative. Anyway…sorry, don’t mean to detract from this video but saw that you just posted and was excited to share my thinking of you and your passion on the direction of dungeon crawlers these last few days. Keep being real man and take care of yourself.
its from the genius that did Xia it must be great
Damn you Juvi, just looked up Arydia on KS ....looks great!. I can thank you for money leaving my wallet soon I think .... Lol
I like that it has lots of treasure cards and a seperate store deck. It offers more replayability compared to gloomhaven because monsters are more random. The rules are hard and there's so much special stuff you need to learn. For example when you reroll a die or all the dice, you can keep the lightning symbols you spent from the old dice. If you don't know about that rule you nerf yourself. It takes time to investigate all these micro rules.
great job my friend!!
Keeping them is not quite true. You can spend them before you re-roll. But if for example you needed a lighting bolt and a star for an ability and you had an extra lightning bolt but no star before you re-rolled I think the thread on BGG implies that you couldn’t keep the original to combine with the star you now rolled. You basically have to spend as much as possible before you re-roll
I need to get this game to the table. I punched and sorted everything but have yet to play it.
I have it completely painted and need to play it more
I really enjoy this game. I think it's right up there with Gloomhaven as best dungeon crawler in my collection.
nice!
But I do have a soft spot for descent 1e.
if I wasnt buried in Shadows of Brimstone, my alternate crawler would be S&S! but SoB is too too good
its a hard call
I played a few missions. Wasn’t pulled in, was like you said middle of the road. But I kept my copy and backed the newer one. It’s was close enough of enjoyment for me to wait when I’m in a different mood to keep and try again later.
i may go back to it
I always wanted to try this one, but Galaxy Defenders was so brutal I figured this one would be as well, if dice mechanics are same it should be pretty fun (they look similar enough to assume that). I wonder if folks carried over any assumptions based on GD like I did.
love galaxy defenders
It does the simple things really well. It's not flashy, just done right.
Hmmmmm yet people hate on this game?
Hey! Could you please do a playtrough with explaining the game video?
Yes over the holidays I will
For me: the best Dungeon Crawler ever! (talking about Acient Chronicles, the Origin one was good but not so good) Maybe Dungeon Universalis will get Nr. 1 when it will arrive to me, but we´ll see :)
Yeah, it is fiddly but it is also complex, deep, strategic, tense and exciting, AI is excellent, great storry telling, great components and artwork!
I think the main problem for many people is, that you have to invest some time and brain work to get into it. And you have to act smart as a gruop, like in a MMORPG.
You cant just run into things like "yeah, I kill you all!", like the Thief in my group xD
I told him again and again "don´t go straight ahead and alone, dont rush into Monsters, you are a DD not a Tank! So, play and think like a Thief!" But they never listen to me! Why do they never listen to me?! xD
Other Crawlers are more forgiving and more easy to get into, but thats not what I want from a crawler. Games like Descent or Imperial Assault were fun for many years but got boring meanwhile because it is not enough for me anymore. I need more to get excited and that is exactly what S&S delivers to me.
It is like you was racing Cart enough and now you want Formula 1 :)
glad you like it
I really love the mechanics and story telling part, I like the heroes and enemies and along with descent 2ed i really enjoy it.
Glad you enjoy it!
S&S is great dungeon crawl..!! the AI is totally grand..luv the dice mechanic..book of secrets cool also..many different things make it tops..learning curve is steep..but once u get thru that ,it clicks for me...
nice!!
I really like S&S. I don’t mind a bit fiddly and a fair amount of rules. I think that stems from my gaming background. I started in late 70’s with advanced D&D which at its peak had shed loads of rules. I also collect D.C. games so while a game may be the greatest I enjoy them because each one does somthing good or special. For S&S it’s the AI, building up yr character and combat. Thanks as always Rob.
You are welcome!!
Funny thing here. After I got done watching the video, the snapshot of the game became the picture in my lock screen for my phone lol. No idea how that happened but I changed it back. Just super weird.
Spooky
Thanks for reviewing this one, Rob!
i didn't review it yet
I absolutely love this game! I’ve gotten use to the fiddlyness, I find this game is challenging if you apply all the rules correctly. Love the AI to me it’s very realistic.
My only complaint. There are only seven quests in each box!!!
Hopefully someone out there has written some new campaigns content, perhaps on BGG, so that I can play the game some more with same or different characters.
But absolutely love this game! I have almost all the expansion stuff, I missed the Kickstarter, so have been playing catch up trying to track everything down. Even have an Italian version of one character, and have to constantly Google translate.
But can’t wait to play more of this game.
The only thing I wish someone would do is develop an app, sort of like Gloomhaven helper that could help track the fiddliness, add or subtract conditions, curses, etc, but short of that, I’ve gotten use to it.
Cool!!!
Their website has some fan made campaigns. I've only played the Sea Dog one, but it was very good 👍
I don't know. I'd say I'm down the middle on this one. I think I prefer the sci-fi version, Galaxy Defenders, mostly because it is a lot less fiddly, but I enjoy this. I like Middara and Arena the Contest better these days, but Swords and Sorcery I'd slot somewhere not too far behind those. It's definitely ahead of such games as Descent and Altar Quest for me.
Galaxy Defenders was a blast. That was the first game where I enjoyed the AI and thought that it provided a good campaign experience. It was pretty fiddly so I can only imagine what S&S would be like.
love galaxy defenders
Was there ever a follow up video to this one?
Yes
@@seahawk8601 do you remember the name of the vid? I’ve looked several times
I know nothing about this game but I am IMPRESSED by the time and tenor of the comments I thought this level of courtesy respect of others' opinions was long gone from the internet. Kudos for making our hobby a welcoming place!
i do try everyone should voice there option.....kindly
A lover here, it might be fiddly and I can see why some groups may struggle with it but the AI is second to none, the character development and options are good. It is one of best crawlers on the market but I can see why its not for everyone. I can't wait for act 2 and the new late game expansion coming for the end of the year.
Immortal Souls was good but Ancient chronicles improves on that model and really is something special, it is hard though but for me that's a good thing.
I can't rank them as I've not played all those games, I'd put S&S into a different league from Massive Darkness or cursed city (the games I know) though, not even close competion but that's me.
thank you love hearing this
Our group loves it, but it is fiddly. However there is so much to sink your teeth into, we keep bringing it out.
nice!!
Rob playing a dungeon crawl with Sam Healey would be an epic experience.
No not really…..it’s just a game with a guy I know
@@seahawk8601 😂🤣
I love your honesty.
On the plus side. For me the uniqueness of the enemies is the highest i have seen in a game when discounting boss battlers like KDM and Primal. This is a huge boost because when i see games like massive darkness, gloomhaven, descent and so on, there might be a higher number of unique enemies, but most of them share a template with very small distinctions. In sword & sorcery, when i fight an orc warrior, it feels like fighting an orc warrior which wants to challenge my biggest strongest fighter to show that he is tough. When fighting a bandit, it feels like fighting a bandit which has different annoying tricks and can jump in and out of combat. And i could go on.
On the negative side, the game is to date the most fiddly game i have played. And there are some design flaws, like the treasure deck or the way the game is hardest in the early levels.
Good call
S&S is very fiddle. Maybe the people that love it is because they are heavily involved in this game and probably have everything for it. Now days tabletop gamers have a huge collection of board games, and they have little time to concentrate in one game. So fiddle is a relative term, for someone who plays a game almost exclusively, fiddle is synonymous to delightfully complex. So I guess that the people that hate it are the ones that prefer to play more games that are not necessarily less complex but more intuitive. As an example I can mention Galactic Strike Force. GSF is almost universally hated for its complexity, for being fiddle and for its difficulty. I used to play GSF exclusively for some time and now I consider it one of the more strategic, tactical and fun games I have ever played. I know it’s cards so well that I can predict the dreaded antiproton blast, I can manipulated all sectors and all ships, I can destroy shields and flag ships with ease, I control artifacts, etc. At this time I find it difficult to loose! If I have played GSF only occasionally I would probably hated it as most people do today. S&S may be a similar case than GSF. The difference probably have to do with the high production value of S&S and probably the excellent reviews it got from the Dice Tower and other reviewers. So maybe people try it, because of the hype, to later find out that it was to “fiddle” and “complex” for them. On the other hand GSF have a much lower production value and a lot of bad reviews from people who didn’t know how to play it well. Well this is just my opinion.
and your opinion is well noted!! nice job
Totally agree and if you want a game that is truly complex and fiddly (as commented earlier fiddly just means lots of tokens which act as reminders ) but one of the best skirmish games ever designed and sadly languishes on gamers shelves unloved then try Earth Reborn.
@@j3errym I think fiddly also means other things that are easy to forget.
For example, I chronically forget to roll blue die and check for star when I attack the blue orc shaman. Ugh. No token to remind me, nothing short of putting a piece of tissue over the model to help me remember to see if the attack fails.
Likewise the various monsters have abilities that are easy to forget. To keep this is also the fiddly of the game.
But I love it nevertheless!! Wish there were more campaigns and quests in the base box, and expansions. That’s my only regret! More campaigns with the same characters
Dungeon Crawlers:
Descent
Shadows of Brimstone
Sword & Sorcery
Middara
Claustrophobia
Gloomhaven
D&D Adventure Series
Darklight: Memento Mori
Arcadia Quest
Mice & Mystics
nice job!!!
Owned the first version sold it a couple of years ago what is different with the new base set?
New story
Of those games I've only played Massive Darkness (it was OK, some interesting ideas, would play again) and seen a play through of Cursed City (Nice miniatures but incredibly unexciting gameplay)...
very true
I thought it was really good. However I bought the retail and the amount of content in it was shockingly poor for such an expensive game.
My understanding is that doesn’t get better.
well done my friends
We moved on from Descend 2E to Sword & Sorcery a couple of years ago. We enjoyed the cooperative aspect, the AI etc. But since picking up Gloomhaven, S&S just started feeling way too tedious, with the monster mechanics, three kinds of armor and the dice with their up to five symbols...
Our group only plays once a month and we're close to finishing another campaign using on of the expansions.
Like I said, we started playing Gloomhaven in a smaller group of three and it just has a way better overall feel.
Very cool
Never played this, but I have been interested by the game mechanics. I’m just so slow mini-painter I don’t want a lot of games with unpainted miniatures.
Me too
We enjoyed the 2 or 3 scenarios we played, but dayum this game is fiddly. Managing 1 character in this one is like doing 2 or 3 in most other games, iirc. The only reason that we quit playing it was all the newer/shinier stuff that's come out, though. I can say that about a lot of my games, tbh, so there is that :). I hope to set it up and play it again at some point, but it won't be until we're done with Middara, and that will be next year some time haha.
Lol or longer
huh, didn't realize that this was a contentious one.
For the midweight stuff it ended up edging out Descent for me, due to the story, otherwise I'd say that it is about even with it.
1) Midarra
2) Sword and Sorcery / Galaxy Defenders
3) Descent
4) Sine Tempore
5) Massive Darkness / Endure the Stars
(Masmora wasn't my cup of tea, and not seen the other ones mentioned)
I agree
Once you get passed the rule book, the game actually flows very well. Gameplay is smoother than Masive Darkness I would say
I agree
For me I would put them in this order: 1. Massive Darkness 2. Swords and Sorcery 3. Dungeon Crusade (have to put this one lower that it probably deserves because I don't personally have it) 4. Masmorra 5. Cursed City (again don't have it and it doesn't look like what I want from that series).
great job!
I tried three times to get through that rulebook and eventually sold it. Tedious is a good word for it as you stated. And it way too 'on rails' for me with not enough exploration or random elements.
I did not get a Euro feel from this at all.
again a lot of this is from comments
I enjoy it! Great discussion, Rob!
me too!
It's SUPER fiddly. I think that's the biggest reason people hated it. Every single dice roll involves consulting cards and symbols for what feels like forever. There's tokens and cards all over the place. Also the enemy AI cards (which is one of the game's selling points) added even more to the fiddliness! Fiddly, fiddly, fiddly! That said, I think Middara is just as fiddly. It just depends on your level of tolerance for fiddliness. My wife and I played through the whole thing and loved it and now we're in the middle of Middara and love that too!
Out of all the games you mentioned, the only one I would say I hate (strong word) is Masmorra. That game did absolutely nothing for me and was banished to the shelf forever after only a few plays.
great job thank you
I loved Massive Darkness figures, hated the game play. The waves of monsters was a killer for me. Folklore is great and should be on your list. I love S&S for the game play and mechanics once you get used to the flow. The S&S dice can be handled with their dice roll app. So my list of dungeon crawls is 1. Folklore (great figures to paint) and story, 2. S&S, 3. Dungeon Crusade 4. Massive Darkness. I don't have and did not know about Masmorra? or Cursed City?. I will have to research those two.
great job!!
I come from AD&D 2nd Edition. I don't care for WoTC's D&D. I'm seriously debating getting back into it. Which brings me to my question, which board game best exemplifies old school D&D, but with a board??
None of them to be honest
These type of games need an app to track all the combat bonuses and conditions etc. Bookkeeping is sooo tedious.
Good call
I'm sorry to say I can't add much to conversation b/c I haven't played any of the games that you mentioned. On the topic of dungeon crawlers, I would like to throw Wander: The Cult of Barnacle Bay into the mix - it has a small but very loyal and well pleased following. The only negative I've ever heard is that it copies a lot of elements from Arcadia Quest and Zombicide (because the designer formerly worked with CMON).
i dont think so
The closing, "Its your old pal Rob" made me wonder; how is that spoken? =)
Its your old pal Rob - Rob is old and your pal
Its your old pal Rob - You have know Rob as a pal for a long time
Its... Your old pal! -Rob - Rob is calling you old in the nicest way possible
I dont know what Swords and Sorcery is but I like your content Rob so keep on keeping on! I have bought a few games now because of you and your channel and am excited to start playing them with friends =).
do you have a better idea on how i close the show?? do tell
@@seahawk8601 I dont, I was just kidding =). I like it and I think you should keep it the same. Its basically your "branded" saying. If anyone says "Its your old pal" I instantly think of your channel.
KS backer of the first game. I'm definitely middle of the road on it. The AI and tactical aspects are standouts. But the story isn't what I hoped it would be. (For example, when given a choice, I expect it to be meaningful and to result in a different path. Time and again that wasn't the case.) The icons and the fiddliness, though, make it tough to pull out. When I want to play a dungeon crawler, I say, oh, I should play S&S again. But then I think about the setup, the fiddly pieces. It's an above average crawler with some features that are hard to find. It's mainly just about the combat and that's okay. These days, I want more RPGish experiences with non-combat encounters as well as good combat, with decent stories at least, and interesting characters.
This is yet another game where I think the designers stopped short, where they say, okay, we've got what we want but now, let's see if we make it more elegant and simplify some things. (Too Many Bones, I'm looking at you.) But it's still a very good game, one that I'd put in the top half of dungeon crawlers.
I somewhat understand the high praise for S&S, but I've struggled with the reasoning for the hate.
Nice post
Our group took to calling it "Dungeons & Derivatives", given the shameless pop culture references peppered throughout the campaign. However, since the Hollywood Armory set featured the Glaive from Krull- anything below an 8 out of ten suggests you're not as prone to nostalgia bias as I am. The nods to "Rygar" and "Rastan"- two relatively obscure 80's barbarians, were also appreciated, and you could even acquire the red armor from Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992 film). The minis were certainly on the higher side of average, as were the dice; really my two point dock came from the obtrusive fiddly mechanics, and the relative ease of the game. Ancient Chronicles has been purported to address the challenge level though.
lol nice!
You know why i LOVE this game? Because i actually PLAY this game. I can set it up ans play a whole scenario in the time it took me to set up Gloomhaven. As a parent of a small child, i dont have all day to drag out a 30 lb box and this is satisfying my dungeon crawl itch. Love the customization options. Whats not to like?
You hit it right on the head and my brother well done!
Late to the party, but porting the open battlefield of Galaxy Defenders into the narrow hallways of S&S was the mistake. S&S was a lot of buildup just to charge against the enemy in a corridor.
i agree
no video conclusion?
Yes we did it live
@@seahawk8601 what was that episode called? i cant find it
I use an app to play S&S which helps a great deal with all of the fiddly things that pop up; I have several games that dont click with me for some reason that I cant put my finger on. Case in point: Panzer Grenadier. Something with this game just doesnt jive with me and I cant figure out for the life of me exactly what it is. On the other hand, I think Advanced Tobruk System is the best WWII game on the face of the earth...
what app?
@@seahawk8601 There's a companion app for Android & iOS. It's for tracking your characters, items, cards, etc. I used it mainly to save my character. I didn't use it while playing the game. I think this has less than the Massive Darkness app (which I didn't care for). FWIW, I'm fine to play games with apps, like Mansions of Madness, so my app tolerance is maybe higher than some. :)
Interesting you bring up PG. I think the big knock for PG is the combat isn't deadly enough (LOTS of shooting with no results), but on the platoon scale, it is probably more realistic. Have you tried any of the TCS series?
I had never even heard of this game before seeing this video...
Check it out
Mariners hat!
Go Mariners!!!
Only played original, not the new one so this might've changed. But my biggest complaints with it ( I don't hate it, but don't love it either ) were too many status effects, many which just seemed unnecessary, poor character balance ( they all end-up somewhere around the same power-level, but start off VASTLY different, only a few character combinations are viable ), and too many minor specific rules, or effects that feels like it exists purely to make sure you make mistakes throughout your playtroughs, only to realize
emember mid-way through.
The games balance was also specific for 3+ characters. While you CAN play 2 characters, because of the time-limit and how enemy spawns work, you can easily end up in unwinable situations, but removal of the time-limit, throws out the game-end condition. This is a problem.
Anyone that plays this with only 2 characters \ players, essentially is going to hate it, as the game just doesn't really work with that ( why most let's plays \ tutorials show 3+ characters, never 2 ).
--
Also the scenarios are a bit too "right-into-the-action". The first couple of scenarios should've progressively gotten you used to the game and the mechanics, not introduce every mechanic at once. Basically a couple of tutorials, as has become industry standard at this point ( maybe we've just gotten too spoiled? ).
Thanks
I enjoy it, but not enamored by it. I gave it a 7.
I backed the OG Kickstarter and was attracted by it's classic MMO inspirations (I go way back) and the fact that it was a no-GM dungeon crawler.
Nowadays there is plenty of competition in that space and i think it falls into the middle of the road. It doesn't have anything creatively inspired in it (narratively or mechanically), and is a bit fiddly. It does have a very easy to use AI which is why I loved Galaxy Defenders as well.
Good solid score
I've played this once and didn't like it. Why? I can't remember right now, but I think the main cause was the thing that guy who was teaching me the game wasn't really good at it. But, that first impression pushed me away and I never played it again.
I felt that way when Sam and I played it
Sword and Sorcery was too complicated for me. However, I think it's the perfect Dungeon Crawl for Pen and Paper players.
interesting
It is a WILDLY complex game. It has a very in-depth interplay between the characters, monsters, etc. It takes kiting monsters, intentionally passing turns, soaking damage, even suiciding.
For some people, that's a drawback. For others, that's the whole selling point.
there you go!
I really like this game, but for solo play it’s a lot to keep track of. It can be exhausting to control your characters and then the monsters. I would love to get this game to the table with another person, I feel it would play so much better.
I play with my son at times. It’s nice having him roll monster dice or read the story while I manipulate the cardboard as directed. However, it really doesn’t speed things up as much as it keeps you from missing rules or stat bonuses or such.
it is a lot to do
I love sword and Sorcery!!!!!!!!the best one in my opinion
Nice to hear
The more fiddly a game is the better it is. Fiddly usually equals complex and complex is better. I find nothing worse than getting what could be a great game and its so oversimplified that all the characters and all the monsters are basically the same. When someone says the manual is massive, I think oooh thats going to be for me. For a dungeon crawl I want D&D in a box with all the rules and all the flexibility. I rated S&S a 10 on BGG. I'll be pledging the upcoming KS for sure. One of my top games of all time. I only wish you could explore free roaming more in this game.
A 10 means there could never be another game made than that ….I like the game and don’t understand the hate and the new KS could be good but for some it may be too little too late
@@seahawk8601 I have given other games a 10 as well. I give a 10 when it would land on my top games list. Doesn't mean its perfect - no game is perfect.
I neither love nor hate it, it was the first Dungeon Crawl game I played, and then I discovered Decent.
nice!
I owned the core game and a few extras. Personally, I liked the system. Everything works pretty well, mechanically. The progression was good, and I liked the variety of objectives and events.
I ended up giving it away to a friend though. I couldn't take the writing seriously. I laughed out loud (not with delight, but more of a pitiful acceptance) at how cheesy the callbacks were, and was bored to tears with how plain and straighforward the narrative was. Any chance at personal investment in the story and characters was railroaded by the writing. Once it started telling me about King Rygar, I just couldn't. What, am I going to Journey to Silius, through the woods of Faxanadu, where I will do battle with the Mother Brain at the Castle of Vania? It just felt like it was written by someone who thought it would be fun to try writing a story, and not by someone who was taking their job as a professional storyteller seriously.
So, I don't get it either. The gameplay is very middle of the road. Certainly, nothing that competes with the best in the genre. There isn't anything broken or anything brilliant in the rules. The writing isn't offensive or confusing. Just trite. Uninteresting. I just didn't enjoy it very much, and so I gave it to someone who might. Nothing worthy of any actual hate, to be sure. Indeed I don't see how anything about this game evokes any strong feelings one way or the other.
Great post
What crawlers would you say have good writing / are the best?
@@jeremyfrost3127 Flat out best I've played so far is Kingdom Death - Monster. I think the narrative in Gloomhaven is also a lot more interesting and well written than most. For me, a dungeon crawler can have just average or generic writing and story, as most do, and totally get away with it. It is going to be the progression and other mechanics that keep me playing. But I just found the writing in S&S to be just not to my tastes at all. To the point of being laughable and repellant. Maybe it is just because I got all the references, but there were jsut so many callback and so little substance. It felt cheap. Anyways, if I want something specifically narrative, I usually go for AHCG, Arkham 3rd, or Fallout each for their own reasons. Games like Descent (any edition) and Shadows of Brimstone may not have the most enthralling plots or interesting story developments either, but in at least those two instances, I think the production and game play are both a little stronger than S&S. I think that an S&S 2nd edition could be a top tier crawler if they just lavish up the art and writing, and include a more substantial quest line with the core game. The mechanics themselves wouldn't need much tweaking or refining.
Thanks
Your welcome
It’s just so damn fiddle and overly complicated imo but I still have it in my collection but will probably sell it at some point
Fiddly that is
By the way have you checked out new Ks for Arydia? Looks amazing
No I have not
I've got everything of this game. But the rules are a lot to learn.
They sure are
S&S has such a brilliant AI, and other great aspects. But it is a bit hard to play it without making mistakes in terms of keep track of everything. All in all it is a very good dungeon crawler but not a top 3 for me.
Nice job well put
Sword & Sorcery is a proper dungeon crawler - a detailed grind where progress must be earned. Massive Darkness, on the other hand, plays more like a video game - all style and no substance. Levelling up is easy and there's a new magic sword inside every room. I hate it.
well done
I've only played Massive Darkness and Sword and Sorcery on your list so I won't rank them. Sword and Sorcery is a good game. The rules are daunting but easy when you get the hang of it. I like the monster AI, especially when they do weird things (like the bandits kiting your melee guys) I prefer this AI over Gloomhaven's (where monsters can suddenly stop moving for a whole round). The figures are poor to okay in the base set, but the quality greatly improves in the expansions. The leveling and ghost system is alright, but the characters can get out of control in power depending on the items( the rogue heavily skews this.) My biggest complaint about this game, while it seems trivial is actually a big thing for me, is the set up. It takes forever to get all the little counters on the map. I own a lot of dungeon crawlers and this game requires the most set up. I find the making of the event deck especially tedious.
Overall I enjoy this game. It has its quirks and I can understand why some people don't like it. If playing with friends, make sure someone really knows the rules so it won't get bogged down in looking through the rules all the time.
i can see that...well done
What are your preferred dungeon crawlers?
I like Swords and Sorcery. I am not in either camp. It is ahead of Massive Darkness and Dungeon crusade. Behind Cursed City but I hate to say that because I am mad at GW. It is a middling Dungeon crawler.
lol your right!
Awesome game after the mediocre base set. AC is great so far.
nice!
Here’s some perspective from a newer player. I’ve been board gaming for just a couple years now and own only a handful of dungeon crawl games. Massive Darkness was my 1st dungeon crawler and found the rules really easy to grasp and the game just flowed for me. Sword and Sorcery was actually the 2nd dungeon crawler I ever bought and boy what a difference in complexity. The rules were a lot harder for me to comprehend and when finally set it up and tried the 1st mission I kept dying to the very 1st encounter with an enemy and I’m not sure if it was my lack of experience or me overcomplicating the rules to make sure I’m playing the right way but I died to the same 1st encounter 3 times in a row.
Maybe I’m just not used to dungeon crawls being this hard in the beginning but out of my very small collection of games I find this to be the hardest to play as I really want to love this game (I bought a few expansions when I bought the base game) but the game just beats me down and I don’t have fun while it’s happening.
Just some thoughts from someone with little experience in board gaming! Fantastic video! I don’t hate the game. I think the game hates me 😂
Trust me I feel the same way
Shadows of Brimstone is another good dungeon crawler - a modification of Warhammer Quest 1995. Dungeon Saga by Mantic also deserves a mention. It's also better than Massive Darkness. The one to watch is Dungeon Universalis. It's a stunning old school Dungeon Crawler.
i agree
I have Galaxy Defenders. Those games have the same system, except in S&S the gameplay is somewhat more forgiving, from what I've seen.
Those games are really hard. I galaxy defenders, one wrong turn ends your whole campaign. Plus the AI is as close to a human player as it can get.
Those things are both the main positives and negatives. That's probably why.
love galaxy
I like everything about s&S except cookie cutter enemies and boring story.
that doesn't leave much after that
Best dice in the industry.....don't play with the $ or ghost souls
very true
I consider a good game, good story but not superb. Have all and is an entertaining game to play. Now again shadows is above, I think is shadows is a classification as own, non equal. Then you have the rest, all others.
nice job i agree
Summary of below: fun battle system, varied classes, intriguing story…however incomplete, limited customization, too much random variance in difficulty, and price point for amount of content is poor.
Reasons I enjoy the game: it scratches the high fantasy itch theme with a fun battle system and an interesting way to tell a decent story. The classes are quite varied, and there is something to be said for the AI of the enemies. It’s easy enough for my son to understand and play with me (with help on strategy at times). The scenarios are all very unique, and they attempt to capture a questing style of game in a dungeon crawl format.
Reasons I never bought expansions or the sequel: the cost vs the amount of content is too frustrating. The amount of time to set up and play a single quest is well more than average, and it doesn’t “save” easily. There are way too many nitpicking rules and cardboard to keep up with playing solo. There is no treasure scaling: my play through with my son saw us get the best sword for Ecarus on the first treasure pull, making the game easy mode. 2nd treasure was the flying hammer for the cleric, and we were steamrolling. Yes, that’s pure luck, but therein lies the crux of the issue I have with this game. The difficulty can swing wildly one way or another.
Lastly, and my biggest gripe of all, is that the leveling up system sucks. The core game with just 3 advancements, and those are gated by having exp shared across all players and used to resurrect dead heroes. What a HORRIBLE system. “Hey, I killed this monster 8 tiles away from you. Here’s your experience!” The game felt incomplete at release, and it turned me off from ever buying Act 2. I want to, because I love the story. However, Gloomhaven’s “all in” approach changed how I view these types of games. For $100-$120 (GH is always on sale somewhere), I need the content or fun factor of Gloomhaven, and S&S is just too much investment to get there.
great post well done!
Galaxy Defenders is a much better game than Sword & Sorcery, it is its predecesor, almost same game system but GD works much better, is much more tactical and not as fiddly.
thank you
Personally found the rulebook too clunky/too long. Love the setting/concept, just too onerous to get to the table/too "fiddly."
i hear that a lot
Do not like this game, rules too complex for my tastes, combat has way to many steps. After 7 games, we have never managed to play a session with some major mistakes. So easy to forget a rule somewhere... it even amazed us. Also the AI is nice, but again so easy to forget a modifier or something. I cannot put my finger on it, other complex games we do not have this issue with. But with this one, we do. It sits now collecting dust in my collection.
that is fair my friend