Normally everybody picks nations like Russia, Germany, Japan the UK and other great powers. Nice to have one covering a slavic nation which is not Russia
It would be part of Canada most likely. Unless the butterfly effect would mean a different Oregon territory agreement or something. But there's no accounting for the butterfly effect, that would be too complicated. If you look at 7:33 and the big world maps, Alaska is not shown as part of the US in my scenario either. So I thought of it ;)
5:56 Essentially all nations profited from defeating Napoleon. I doubt the Commonwealth would've lost anything, but likely would've expanded much more. 6:12 It was already constitutional. The Sejm - the Polish parliament - was actually the most powerful body in the Commonwealth. Even more powerful than the king. That was one of the primary reasons why it fell at the end - the Commonwealth was filled with aristocrats, who basically held all the monopoly and stagnated progress. They could elect the king and he basically became a figurehead. I'm pretty sure had a few things gone slightly differently, the Commonwealth could've turned out as the first fully democratic nation in Europe. One of the primary reasons why the Commonwealth was invaded actually, was because they were going thru long-ranging reforms to break the aristocratic monopoly and create a more powerful, more democratic state. They only got to 15% voter participation though and then were wiped from the map 7:21 The German disapora was actually much bigger. The Czechs would almost definitely remain in German hands alongside Slovenia. Still, a fascinating and creative scenario. I really like it.
Polska straciła na pokonaniu Napoleona wiązała z nim duże nadzieję na odzyskanie niepodległości i powrót Polski na mapy europy. I napewno była bardzo wkurzona jak Rosja wygrała która dokonała rozbioru Polski razem z Austrią i Prusami!
interesting fact is that poles were greatly valued by napoleon in his army, and it's hard to predict how napoleonic wars would have play out in that kind of timeline coz many poles joined up with napoleon coz they wanted their country back and napoleon was the only one who was't an ally to prussia, austria or russia
Józef Poniatowski He was one of the best in the Napoleonic army. In the course of the battle of nations he was appointed Marshal of France by Napoleon, he was the only foreigner with such distinction.
This is the first AltHist I viewed from you and I am especially impressed by the unique style of narrating, talking about the scenario as if it were real history, by using specific temporal terminology. It really makes the story so much more lively and the immersion is stunning as you forget that it is just an idea about how history could have been if certain events took or did not take place. Also in this timeline the world seems much more peaceful with less wars and ideal proto states (Greater Germany or North Slavia). Good job, I have subscribed now. Edit: Damn I watched all of the other videos up until what if Rome recovered and you are very underrated, why are you not in the millions in the sub count yet??
So basically if the guy that ruled poland back then choose to switch to orthodox we would basically control the whole europe my god i wish i had time machine and told him that
not necessarily. the polish government system was sort of doomed to collapse eventually. this video ignores the internal problems for the sake of speculation
Why didn't you mention Finland leaving the union? At one point Finland just wasn't included in the borders and you didn't mention it at all. It was about the biggest loss of land the country would have ever seen, I'd imagine it would have matterat least a bit.
Great Video I love the concept. If you are open to criticism I would suggest not including events that happen in Our world which happen sometime after 100 years from the start of your scenario, or at least if they happen they should be fairly different. For example, Napoleon, as we know him, would probably not exist. Anyway still great one of the better Alt Histories on YT
I'm always open to criticism. And yeah I kinda agree, I guess I need to find some balance between the real world history and the fictional aspect. My new what if Rome never fell takes a completely different approach, basically being entirely fictional after the POD, only with some parallels like the Britannian Empire playing a similar role to Britain in our world. But still quite different in many ways. The scenario might not be particularly realistic, but the world building was a lot of fun. I will probably be learning and experimenting for some time, I am still a very new creator.
Great scenario! One thing is certain. Greater Greece was still formed! It appears that it was actually more probable than we now have come to think, maybe even the more probable outcome. In fact, many Greek politicians said that for it to fail, many grave mistakes would have to be made, which were.
Highly realistic scenario you did with China over there. People like to imagine that if the KMT won the civil war China would be this friendly nice kumbaya country that is friends with everyone. That would not be the case, it would still be authoritarian and expansionist, but not communist. China for its 4,000 years of history has always been authoritarian. Chiang Kei Shek himself was a brutal dictator, only reason why he didnt have a higher body count then Mao was because he didnt have control over the mainland. In fact, Shek’s dream of China is very similar to what we see today with the PRC. Basically when Deng reformed China it became the defacto ROC that Shek envisioned. Overall China would still hate the west, because in their eyes there can be only 1 global hegemon.
Yes. And in this case since communism might never be a thing, let alone a communist regime since the Soviets wouldn't be founded, so there probably wouldn't be a Mao-Chiang civil war like what we had in our real timeline. However the Qing empire might still collapse cuz it's a feudal, 'traditional' empire with very regressive social, political & economic systems, which might be followed by a Balkanization period, the 'warlord era' just like the real timeline. However now after an even longer & more complicated 'Chinese civil war', which sees warlords fighting against each other. However without the communists someone like Chiang would just focus on reuniting the warring warlords, and establish a corrupt and authoritarian military dictatorship (like he eventually did in Taiwan) elevating himself to the supreme power. And that's how China would still be the world's largest authoritarian regime and constantly blocking the expansion of liberal democracy, similarly under an 'anti-western' umbrella. For gods sake the party is called 'nationalists', and the only reason why he was considered 'allied' with the US is that the west also hated communists & supported his campaign to try to eliminate communists, in our real timeline. Without the communists he would probably be as anti-Western as you could imagine.
I have commented out a likely scenario of how this would happen, with the commonwealth (I'd like to call 'Rzeczpospolita Intermarium' or simply 'Rzeczpospolita' as that's very likely what they're gonna be known by if this really happens) surviving & becoming a major European & world power, under the part 2 of this video. But basically, the story goes like this. Even with, or especially with, the commonwealth uniting Eastern Europe & controlling the Euro-Asia border, and creating enormous wealth & power by providing great political & economic stability and being one of the first to industrialize, the western Europeans like the Britain & France would still go on their colonization journey around the world, eventually colonizing large parts of Asia too, especially SE Asia, which is traditionally seen as the circle of influence of China. However, China would still lag in industrialization & modernization, hence power-wise China is no match. This culminated in the great war, where China declared war on all 4 entente/ally nations, as France/Britain threatens China from the sea, and the Rzeczpospolita & Turkey threatens her from the land, especially in central Asia, Siberia, etc. On the other hand, Japan, trying to replace China as the boss of East Asia and rising fast, allied themselves with the allies. China herself was badly defeated in the war, with the central powers on the losing side worldwide too. Hence China was heavily punished, and Japan & Western European powers gained a lot in Asia. This would almost certainly cause the Qing Empire to collapse, just like the real world Ottoman, German & Russian Empires after WW1. And a period of warlord infighting & balkanization can follow soon, until the 'civil war' I mentioned where there's someone emerging as the new strongman to reunite the country.
No, this is just pristine... Youre some english or american guy I presume? And you had to take your time and work on some european nation project, a video and it seems like a lot of dedication went into this. I love the details, I love the idea, youre an inspiration
this could have happended but the polish-lithuanian king was too afraid that his son would just get murdered in moscow if he would claim the throne, but I think that a small polish army protecting moscow and the new russian tsar would have been enough, tho the union would most likely collapse sooner or later since poles and russians didn't quite like each other at that time
Not only that but to be Tsar of Russia Władysław (his son) should change religion to orthodox which Zygmunt( father) dont accepted.I think it was big mistake cuz Christians should be united but im not here for rate
@@danrook5757 well no one cares what 5% of the population thinks, if poland and russia somehow had good ties, they could have done that, but it's unlikely.
Это было невозможно на тот момент, Польша слишком агрессивно подавляла православие, постоянные бунты, восстания. Такое государство не просуществовало бы и 5 лет.
Not really, the real problem is liberum veto and magnates controlling everything. Seeing as Władysław IV would be way more succesful in this timeline liberum veto would probably be abolished and without the Deluge most of the lower nobility wouldnt be killed (and their lands wouldnt be destroyed) the Commonwealth would be stable
@@toadsterer747 democracy was the reason why liberum veto was a thing and why it was impossible to abolish it because magnates and nobles would never agree for that. Their biggest nightmare was not the fall of the Commonwealth or losing an important war and a huge piece of its teritorry. Their biggest nightmare was the king becoming an independent from them leader of the country, a "tyrant" as they called it what would lead them to lose their liberty as they thought. Other countries where democracacy did not exist or where people had much less rule over the policy of the state didnt have such problems and they have won in the "evolutionary" competition for the strongest system that lead them to defeating countries with weaker systems and becoming world class empires for the whole 19th century or even to this day. The US was an exception because they just had no strong enough enemys near enough so there was actually noone who could defeat them using the power of much better working political system and their type of democracy was not as bad as the polish one because there was 1 president who rulled the country not a whole parlament. However the democracy still was a drag for the US and because of that it for example lost the vietnam war and gave away vietnam to China and the USSR because US people were stupid and didnt understand that winning that war was important so US presidents were pressured by them to end it so they could be elected again. We should learn from our past mistakes not make them again my man
@@hydrosprezarka4204 While I partially agree with your response, the magnates were the ones who only cared about personal gain, especially in the 1700s the lower nobility was mostly patriotic. And the statement that liberum veto couldnt have been abolished is not true it was seen as a danger even before it was first used, as for example back in 1646 Szczucki and Jabłonowski tried to pass a law to remove liberum veto and replace it with a set of rules for the Sejm (due to the geopolitical situation it was postponed and forgotten), multiple attempts were made to limit it for example by creating a tribunal to judge the rightful use of veto, however after 1660 it was all turned down by magnates and later when even the magnates agreed to abolish it, the russians didnt allow it. Seeing how the Deluge doesnt happen and the king has more authority (most kings also wanted to abolish it) its very possible the Commonwealth becomes a functional stable democracy (parlimentary monarchy)
@@toadsterer747 If the lower nobility were mostly patriotic they wouldnt vote in the Sejm (the "parlament") as the magnates told them for money or other promisses like good education for their children. But they were doing that and it was a very popular proceder in the whole country. There were indeed some people who tried to abolish it but they failed and it was for a reason. The nobility just had a phobia about giving any of their laws to the king because they thougt it will be the first step leading the Commonwealth to becoming a centralised state like the ottoman empire or the habsburg empire which was their darkest nightmare because they just wanted to rule the country themselfs and keep the situation when the king the rightful monarch that they elected themselfs could do almost nothing without their permition expressed in the Sejm. The moment when they finally realised that they just have to give some of their rights to the king by abolishing liberum veto the Commonwealth was so weak and de facto dependent from russia after the past century of weak kings elected by egocentric nobles and meetings of the Sejm ended with liberum veto no reformes and no changes which lead to no development of the whole country and degradation of the army it was far to late for abolishing liberum veto and now there was another reason why it was impossible and this reason was that its existence was very unfavourable for the Commonwealth therefor very beneficial for their enemys like russia and they werent gona let anyone reform the Commonwealth.
Very possible. And in my scenario they definitely could have colonized Siberia. They were just not as interested in it, so didn't pay much attention to the Russian colonists that went east. Thus many of them formed independent kingdoms. And came under Chinese influence eventually. But much of Siberia is still inhabited by Russians in this world. Just not the far East, which is mostly Chinese. And It's split between Commonwealth and Chinese Influence. You can totally argue the Commonwealth would've kept all of Siberia. That's just not the path I took in this alternate history scenario.
@@Neatling irl moscow goverment wasnt really interest in siberian lands, but it was good money specially from fur. And fur was like an oil back then, so i dont see why this polish-russian state would also ignore siberia.
Essentially the Qing dynasty expanded their influence well into Siberia during the 1700's. Since the Commonwealth would be more focused on Europe than Russia was in our timeline. Their capital in Warzaw would also be much further from the frontier. Making controlling Siberia more difficult. The Qing dynasty in this world still falls and is replaced with the republic of China. But since there is no rise of communism in Russia, there is no communist revolution in China either. This doesn't mean that China becomes a real democracy. But it does mean that it opens up it's economy much earlier. So it would also industrialize much earlier. So the rise of China as one of the world powers we see happening today, happens much earlier in this timeline. And throughout the 1900's they expand their authoritarian ideology and create a massive sphere of influence in much of Asia as well as some of Africa. Not very different from what they are attempting to do in our timeline today.
6:24 PLC would not allow Bosporus to go as it is in case of unrelenting wish of Russia to control it even today. The reason is that nobility who would benefit from trade via Black Sea would not allow to lose their access Mediterranean Sea meaning - there would always be money to pay for military to keep it operational.
Rave. The author ask how the colonization of Siberia took place. It was not the tsar who sent the Cossacks for the purpose of colonization. It was the Cossacks who went to the east, where they set up a fortress, with the aim of centralized collection of yasak (furs). Everything. Would the elite of this neoplasm refuse such easy money? I think the question is rhetorical. And it doesn't matter who would be in power in this case, Russia / Poland / Sweden. Expansion would have happened anyway. There was no sense in laying, in the form of a vassal state at all. The same goes for the colonization of southern Siberia. But there is more geography. Any country in that region would have to expand, because in the bare steppe there would be problems with defense from the raids of the steppe inhabitants. Well, the expansion of the Qing to the north is even more delusional. What for ? There is no reason for this isolationist dynasty to move into wild, cold lands. I think this is purely author's arbitrariness, so that the picture does not look so beautiful.
Władysław IV would need switch back to catholicism if he wanted to be a king of PLC. It might cause two things 1) Russia break out of the union 2) Russia stays and christianity is 1 step closer to re-unitment. Also PLC would rather seek to control Black Sea coastline, Crimea and up to Kaukasus. Then restoring rule over Moldavia, Wallachia, St. Stephen's Crown (Kingdom of Hungary, including Croatia), Bohemian Crown. Ultimetly fighting Habsburgs and Brandenburg under HRE, leading to re-gaining Silesia and Polish Pomerania (the very early polish rule). South Slavs would rather be under Croatian-Hungary crown control (jointed with PLC) and some sort of Serbian Kingdom as PLC vassal. If Greece would be a separate entity PLC would demand end of orthodox faith. Then maybe recover old Byzantine cores due to falldown of Ottomans On side quest Poland might took control over core Sweden, then ultimetly Kalmar Union to close the rule over Baltic Sea and Hansa. And at the very last recovering Lusitia and Polabia (Brandenburg), although Brandenburg would be rather a some sort a vassal state, since it's been torn in the ass after Brandenburg-Prussia ventures. But PLC would not fight against France due to natural alliance against Habsburgs and HRE. Instead Napolen would form an alliance to dismantle any remainings of german states and puppet them 50/50. So at the end PLC would rule everything east of Carolingian Empire borders from 814 (pretty much Iron Curatain borders with Austria Split) + all of Scandinavia. It probably would not switch names or just be a Commonwealth with polish culture and catholic faith dominating). Some conflicts might occur between Napoleon Empire or British but Powers would just split colonial world and there would be no ww1/2. At this point slavs might be integrated is some sort of one nation and only nationalities of ugrofinic and germanic culture might become independent.
You know, the most unbelievable thing about this scenario is China not crashing and burning for most of its history due to being in a constant state of civil war.
3:44 I don't really think that pan-slavism would provoke Commonwealth (moustly cause nationalism wouldn't been born yet) but maybe it was caused by inhereting the "Third Rome" idea from the tsardom (I dunno, this sounds better for me then just "we want united slav state") but, this is just a theory a game theory.
They would never want to be Rome. Polish nobility believed that they came from the land of ancient Sarmatians, who successfully defended themselves from Roman Empire and created their own state in Poland. They would most likely treat Rome as their oppressors of the past.
2:26 Lithuania’s wtf most of that land was Lithuania why is it Poland and Russia and not Lithuania p.s this isn’t serious but did make me slightly angry
The official name would include Lithuania. The official name would just be too long to fit in there. Also, it would still be a mostly Polish and Russian speaking empire with time. But ofc the duchy of Lithuania is a key part of it, it would be the second largest territory after Russia. The Lithuanians are just a minority there. The Duchy of Lithuania was interesting in that way. It was a pretty small amount of Lithuanians ruling over a vast mostly slavic territory. But as mentioned, until it reforms into Seveslavia, the official name would include the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. I just shortened it for practical purposes. Apologies
😂 Whilst I am bot at the end of the video, but near it I am a bit baffled the Pan-Slavoc Severoslavia wouldn't grind it's teeth on getting the lands of Czechs and Slovaks after they gained the South Slavs. After all they are Slavic, most closely related to Poland and would a great Buffer between Warsaw and rest of Europe.
5:54 not true a bit. French were respected in Commonwealth, French language in Commonwealth was like English today. pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francuzi_w_Polsce . So it's unlikely that Commonwealth would support Brits 7:45 and wtf spreading American 'culture' and democracy bruh
Just because PLC was on good terms with France in our timeline doesn't mean it would be the same here. We're talking about such a major change that much of the history we know wouldn't happen at all. This Commonwealth would be a completely different country with different policies and ambitions and the reality this country would find itself in would be completely different by the beginning of the 18th century. Commonwealth totally could be seen as a challenge to the french interest especially if they successfully went full Third Rome mode or/and decided to expand their sphere of influence in the Europe.
Could still happen in Poland without Napoleon, it was already kinda a concept in literature (for example the writings of Wojciech Dębołęcki) that would probably be popularized during romanticism
what is that third thingy in the thumbnail i mean, the top left one is the polish white eagle (with a crown), the top right is lithuanian pogoń (or smth), and idk the bottom one what is it
please don't forget why Belgium, whose founders were Republicans, became a Kingdom in 1830: no one wanted to be know as a weak mess, aka a Republic, in a sea of monarchies.
It is a chunky China indeed lol. But despite the looks, it's population wouldn't be much higher. The only major addition would be Korea. But not that many live in eastern Siberia. It's like if the US annexed Canada. That wouldn't really change much either but the US would become the worlds largest country area wise. Still, it wouldn't change much. It would have a similar population, GDP and so on. In my scenario China's real strength is it's network of alliances across asia, much like the US's network of alliances in the scenario, as well as in the real world.
Video Idea: Try Bohemian Empire either being maintained to today or re-emerged out of HRE. Would be a different Slavic Empire but unlike Russia or even this one, it probably would not have the Pan Slavic Ideals. Though it would fundamentally change the face of Europe as it was a State at its center, owning bits from north of Czech rep. Down to Austria and even a bit beyond. Essentially preventing Austria Hungary.
Seriously, if the Polish-Lithuanian nobles wanted to conquer Russia they would. But annexing Russia to the Commonwealth would mean exporting democracy to Russia, and we all know it's impossible to do. The nobles knew that too. That's why, even though the king wanted to be a king of Russia, there were never any plans by the Polish-Lithuanian parliament to annex Russia.
Why exporting democracy to Russia impossible? And seven boyars is real event. So polish king can be a tsar of Russia and Russia might be a part of Commonwealth.
@@tengia7927 Democracy requires the existence of a strong middle class. Something Russia doesn't have even now. It's the 21st century and Russians still look up blindly to their tsar, believing that nothing depends on them. Poland already had problems with the Lithuanian-Ruthenian magnates after creating the Union, and with the Cossacks who wanted to gain noble rights after the southern Lithuania was annexed to Poland even though they didn't want to behave like nobles. It'd be far worse if Russia joined too.
@@sylwiatimeFirst :Reformation of society. Second: protests against Putin's dictatorship and battle groups like freedom of Russia. And 1600 right in time of this russian-polish war ,in Russia crisis called,, time of troubles. This crisis was accompanied by instability, anarchy, drought, which led to hostility towards the royal power. Immediately after the start of the war, in Polish-controlled territory, many peasants and boyars joined the Polish side. Third: Again seven boyars is real event only reason why Russia isn't become part of Commonwealth is because boyars refuse to change religion to Catholic. If Poland has solved problems with Lithuanian and Ruthenian magnates why Poland can't solve problems eith russian magnates. Fourth: there are more advantages than disadvantages from this. Pros: Minus a rival in the east, a significant increase in the population, and therefore the army, which will help in defeating other rivals - Sweden, the Ottoman Empire and the Habsburgs. Increasing the economy and economic potential. Cons: Problems with internalization, Separatism. That's all.
in those times, the Republic was multi-religious A Catholic lived next to a Jew, Orthodox Ruthenian (Lithuanian, today's Belarusian or Ruthenian Halicki, today's Ukrainian) even a Muslim Tatar, only Russia looked at Orthodoxy and looked at Poland as infidels, until we were Christianized Slavs lived in harmony Christianity and sects have divided us and now politics, what Russia is doing distances us from them as cousins, and their proximity to the Slavs, Slavs lived in harmony with nature, they were not aggressors, they knew how to defend themselves but valued peace, Russians love war therefore, they were closer to Batu Khan and the Mongols, after all, they were their vassals for a long time
hey when in your timeline did silesia become German cos it got German after they joined Brandenburg Prussia when this event does not happen it should still be Slavic in the end probably joining Czechoslovakia or Poland
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
Normally everybody picks nations like Russia, Germany, Japan the UK and other great powers. Nice to have one covering a slavic nation which is not Russia
Agreed
Lithuanians are not slavs, so it's more like slavic-baltic union
Lithuania is not slavic man, learn history
@@emilijuspoviliunas6009 Poland ?
@@hank9997 no, I was talking about Lithuania, it is not a Slavic country
Does anyone els think Alaska would be part of Canada in this timeline never having been Russian?
It would be part of Canada most likely. Unless the butterfly effect would mean a different Oregon territory agreement or something. But there's no accounting for the butterfly effect, that would be too complicated. If you look at 7:33 and the big world maps, Alaska is not shown as part of the US in my scenario either. So I thought of it ;)
Lol, you are so wrong. Canada would be a part of Alaska in this timeline. Kneel before your penguin overlords!
@@mathskafunda4383 but penguins live in the south pole
@@somegamer1891 But it sounds dramatic.
Or, Antarctica has colonized Alaska
impossible.
5:56 Essentially all nations profited from defeating Napoleon. I doubt the Commonwealth would've lost anything, but likely would've expanded much more.
6:12 It was already constitutional. The Sejm - the Polish parliament - was actually the most powerful body in the Commonwealth. Even more powerful than the king. That was one of the primary reasons why it fell at the end - the Commonwealth was filled with aristocrats, who basically held all the monopoly and stagnated progress. They could elect the king and he basically became a figurehead. I'm pretty sure had a few things gone slightly differently, the Commonwealth could've turned out as the first fully democratic nation in Europe. One of the primary reasons why the Commonwealth was invaded actually, was because they were going thru long-ranging reforms to break the aristocratic monopoly and create a more powerful, more democratic state. They only got to 15% voter participation though and then were wiped from the map
7:21 The German disapora was actually much bigger. The Czechs would almost definitely remain in German hands alongside Slovenia.
Still, a fascinating and creative scenario. I really like it.
Great points again, it's hard not to agree with you. I'll try to be even more thorough next time. Appreciate it as always :))
@Szymon Gniado Sarmatism > Panslavism
Not all. Poland didn't gain from defeating Napoleon, on the contrary.
@@Neatling what happens to Circassians in this Timeline?
Polska straciła na pokonaniu Napoleona wiązała z nim duże nadzieję na odzyskanie niepodległości i powrót Polski na mapy europy. I napewno była bardzo wkurzona jak Rosja wygrała która dokonała rozbioru Polski razem z Austrią i Prusami!
interesting fact is that poles were greatly valued by napoleon in his army, and it's hard to predict how napoleonic wars would have play out in that kind of timeline coz many poles joined up with napoleon coz they wanted their country back and napoleon was the only one who was't an ally to prussia, austria or russia
Józef Poniatowski He was one of the best in the Napoleonic army. In the course of the battle of nations he was appointed Marshal of France by Napoleon, he was the only foreigner with such distinction.
But why are all people just talking about Poland its likę Lithuania dosent exist😔
@@donatellodon1198 poland-lithuania was dominated by poland
The world would be a slightly better place.
Great work
Thanks man
HI
Awesome scenario. Perhaps videos covering Austria uniting Germany or this greater Republic of China?
Great ideas!
Thx for covering my suggestion!
This is the first AltHist I viewed from you and I am especially impressed by the unique style of narrating, talking about the scenario as if it were real history, by using specific temporal terminology. It really makes the story so much more lively and the immersion is stunning as you forget that it is just an idea about how history could have been if certain events took or did not take place. Also in this timeline the world seems much more peaceful with less wars and ideal proto states (Greater Germany or North Slavia). Good job, I have subscribed now.
Edit: Damn I watched all of the other videos up until what if Rome recovered and you are very underrated, why are you not in the millions in the sub count yet??
So basically if the guy that ruled poland back then choose to switch to orthodox we would basically control the whole europe my god i wish i had time machine and told him that
not necessarily. the polish government system was sort of doomed to collapse eventually. this video ignores the internal problems for the sake of speculation
Why didn't you mention Finland leaving the union? At one point Finland just wasn't included in the borders and you didn't mention it at all. It was about the biggest loss of land the country would have ever seen, I'd imagine it would have matterat least a bit.
This is the Most Realistic Timeline of all, Congrats Neatling!
Great Video I love the concept. If you are open to criticism I would suggest not including events that happen in Our world which happen sometime after 100 years from the start of your scenario, or at least if they happen they should be fairly different. For example, Napoleon, as we know him, would probably not exist. Anyway still great one of the better Alt Histories on YT
I'm always open to criticism. And yeah I kinda agree, I guess I need to find some balance between the real world history and the fictional aspect. My new what if Rome never fell takes a completely different approach, basically being entirely fictional after the POD, only with some parallels like the Britannian Empire playing a similar role to Britain in our world. But still quite different in many ways. The scenario might not be particularly realistic, but the world building was a lot of fun. I will probably be learning and experimenting for some time, I am still a very new creator.
Excellent Alternate History scenario
i like the plot of seveslavia being democratic, as the Poles and Lithuanians really liked it.
No one:
Me:
"Yes this is Yugoslavia's flag"
Yugoslavia was
Blue
White
Red
@@ermin2248 0:00
@@TheWolf-xt7kb XD
2:33
Great scenario! One thing is certain. Greater Greece was still formed! It appears that it was actually more probable than we now have come to think, maybe even the more probable outcome. In fact, many Greek politicians said that for it to fail, many grave mistakes would have to be made, which were.
idiotic scenario
least patriotic greek
When you get 100 subscribers you should make an alternate Hundred years war.
you are a genius, i love this speculation, i mean u really researched polish history thats epic, gj
my som najlepsze
Highly realistic scenario you did with China over there. People like to imagine that if the KMT won the civil war China would be this friendly nice kumbaya country that is friends with everyone.
That would not be the case, it would still be authoritarian and expansionist, but not communist. China for its 4,000 years of history has always been authoritarian. Chiang Kei Shek himself was a brutal dictator, only reason why he didnt have a higher body count then Mao was because he didnt have control over the mainland. In fact, Shek’s dream of China is very similar to what we see today with the PRC. Basically when Deng reformed China it became the defacto ROC that Shek envisioned.
Overall China would still hate the west, because in their eyes there can be only 1 global hegemon.
Yes. And in this case since communism might never be a thing, let alone a communist regime since the Soviets wouldn't be founded, so there probably wouldn't be a Mao-Chiang civil war like what we had in our real timeline. However the Qing empire might still collapse cuz it's a feudal, 'traditional' empire with very regressive social, political & economic systems, which might be followed by a Balkanization period, the 'warlord era' just like the real timeline. However now after an even longer & more complicated 'Chinese civil war', which sees warlords fighting against each other. However without the communists someone like Chiang would just focus on reuniting the warring warlords, and establish a corrupt and authoritarian military dictatorship (like he eventually did in Taiwan) elevating himself to the supreme power. And that's how China would still be the world's largest authoritarian regime and constantly blocking the expansion of liberal democracy, similarly under an 'anti-western' umbrella. For gods sake the party is called 'nationalists', and the only reason why he was considered 'allied' with the US is that the west also hated communists & supported his campaign to try to eliminate communists, in our real timeline. Without the communists he would probably be as anti-Western as you could imagine.
I have commented out a likely scenario of how this would happen, with the commonwealth (I'd like to call 'Rzeczpospolita Intermarium' or simply 'Rzeczpospolita' as that's very likely what they're gonna be known by if this really happens) surviving & becoming a major European & world power, under the part 2 of this video. But basically, the story goes like this. Even with, or especially with, the commonwealth uniting Eastern Europe & controlling the Euro-Asia border, and creating enormous wealth & power by providing great political & economic stability and being one of the first to industrialize, the western Europeans like the Britain & France would still go on their colonization journey around the world, eventually colonizing large parts of Asia too, especially SE Asia, which is traditionally seen as the circle of influence of China. However, China would still lag in industrialization & modernization, hence power-wise China is no match. This culminated in the great war, where China declared war on all 4 entente/ally nations, as France/Britain threatens China from the sea, and the Rzeczpospolita & Turkey threatens her from the land, especially in central Asia, Siberia, etc. On the other hand, Japan, trying to replace China as the boss of East Asia and rising fast, allied themselves with the allies. China herself was badly defeated in the war, with the central powers on the losing side worldwide too. Hence China was heavily punished, and Japan & Western European powers gained a lot in Asia. This would almost certainly cause the Qing Empire to collapse, just like the real world Ottoman, German & Russian Empires after WW1. And a period of warlord infighting & balkanization can follow soon, until the 'civil war' I mentioned where there's someone emerging as the new strongman to reunite the country.
That's nice video, but I'd really like to see a video of Seveslavia today, like Scandinavia and Eastern Rome, but I guess it's too late
Long waiting but we got it
Honestly, this is super cool.
No, this is just pristine... Youre some english or american guy I presume? And you had to take your time and work on some european nation project, a video and it seems like a lot of dedication went into this. I love the details, I love the idea, youre an inspiration
Glad that kings Jadwiga and Wladyslaw formed this together.
Jogaila
@@lukaslukasas6810 Władysław II. You can keep your little Vytautas if you like him so much as to deem him a better ruler than Jogaila.
@@RexOlafusVidulusMagnus Jogaila was as much ‘ours’ as he was ‘yours’, so we’ll take both 😊
this could have happended but the polish-lithuanian king was too afraid that his son would just get murdered in moscow if he would claim the throne, but I think that a small polish army protecting moscow and the new russian tsar would have been enough, tho the union would most likely collapse sooner or later since poles and russians didn't quite like each other at that time
Not only that but to be Tsar of Russia Władysław (his son) should change religion to orthodox which Zygmunt( father) dont accepted.I think it was big mistake cuz Christians should be united but im not here for rate
Love Poland from India
Edit: I never expected this much likes, thank you!
And Lithuania, they created it
@@krisbass2642 Yes
Bruh
That's 1 way to rickroll
ruclips.net/video/31GRu9OYuVM/видео.html
(This sound effect Playing)
I kind of really wish Polish lithuanian commonwealth succesfully merged with Russia and created this big ass slavic empire
Russia has no connection to lithuania
@@danrook5757 well no one cares what 5% of the population thinks, if poland and russia somehow had good ties, they could have done that, but it's unlikely.
@@danrook5757 They have very deep connection in royal dynasties back then
Это было невозможно на тот момент, Польша слишком агрессивно подавляла православие, постоянные бунты, восстания. Такое государство не просуществовало бы и 5 лет.
8:18 democracy is major reason why Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth has became weak and has been conquered
Not really, the real problem is liberum veto and magnates controlling everything. Seeing as Władysław IV would be way more succesful in this timeline liberum veto would probably be abolished and without the Deluge most of the lower nobility wouldnt be killed (and their lands wouldnt be destroyed) the Commonwealth would be stable
@@toadsterer747 democracy was the reason why liberum veto was a thing and why it was impossible to abolish it because magnates and nobles would never agree for that. Their biggest nightmare was not the fall of the Commonwealth or losing an important war and a huge piece of its teritorry. Their biggest nightmare was the king becoming an independent from them leader of the country, a "tyrant" as they called it what would lead them to lose their liberty as they thought. Other countries where democracacy did not exist or where people had much less rule over the policy of the state didnt have such problems and they have won in the "evolutionary" competition for the strongest system that lead them to defeating countries with weaker systems and becoming world class empires for the whole 19th century or even to this day. The US was an exception because they just had no strong enough enemys near enough so there was actually noone who could defeat them using the power of much better working political system and their type of democracy was not as bad as the polish one because there was 1 president who rulled the country not a whole parlament. However the democracy still was a drag for the US and because of that it for example lost the vietnam war and gave away vietnam to China and the USSR because US people were stupid and didnt understand that winning that war was important so US presidents were pressured by them to end it so they could be elected again. We should learn from our past mistakes not make them again my man
@@hydrosprezarka4204 While I partially agree with your response, the magnates were the ones who only cared about personal gain, especially in the 1700s the lower nobility was mostly patriotic. And the statement that liberum veto couldnt have been abolished is not true it was seen as a danger even before it was first used, as for example back in 1646 Szczucki and Jabłonowski tried to pass a law to remove liberum veto and replace it with a set of rules for the Sejm (due to the geopolitical situation it was postponed and forgotten), multiple attempts were made to limit it for example by creating a tribunal to judge the rightful use of veto, however after 1660 it was all turned down by magnates and later when even the magnates agreed to abolish it, the russians didnt allow it. Seeing how the Deluge doesnt happen and the king has more authority (most kings also wanted to abolish it) its very possible the Commonwealth becomes a functional stable democracy (parlimentary monarchy)
Also man are you a monarchist or authoritarian? Because your arguments seem a biased against democracy as a whole
@@toadsterer747 If the lower nobility were mostly patriotic they wouldnt vote in the Sejm (the "parlament") as the magnates told them for money or other promisses like good education for their children. But they were doing that and it was a very popular proceder in the whole country. There were indeed some people who tried to abolish it but they failed and it was for a reason. The nobility just had a phobia about giving any of their laws to the king because they thougt it will be the first step leading the Commonwealth to becoming a centralised state like the ottoman empire or the habsburg empire which was their darkest nightmare because they just wanted to rule the country themselfs and keep the situation when the king the rightful monarch that they elected themselfs could do almost nothing without their permition expressed in the Sejm. The moment when they finally realised that they just have to give some of their rights to the king by abolishing liberum veto the Commonwealth was so weak and de facto dependent from russia after the past century of weak kings elected by egocentric nobles and meetings of the Sejm ended with liberum veto no reformes and no changes which lead to no development of the whole country and degradation of the army it was far to late for abolishing liberum veto and now there was another reason why it was impossible and this reason was that its existence was very unfavourable for the Commonwealth therefor very beneficial for their enemys like russia and they werent gona let anyone reform the Commonwealth.
I love this, i like the background music
I think that Commonweath could colonize Siberia, Central Asia and conquer Caucasus as Russian Empire.
Very possible. And in my scenario they definitely could have colonized Siberia. They were just not as interested in it, so didn't pay much attention to the Russian colonists that went east. Thus many of them formed independent kingdoms. And came under Chinese influence eventually. But much of Siberia is still inhabited by Russians in this world. Just not the far East, which is mostly Chinese. And It's split between Commonwealth and Chinese Influence. You can totally argue the Commonwealth would've kept all of Siberia. That's just not the path I took in this alternate history scenario.
And make Asia His puppet
@@Neatling irl moscow goverment wasnt really interest in siberian lands, but it was good money specially from fur. And fur was like an oil back then, so i dont see why this polish-russian state would also ignore siberia.
Nice Dude!!!
8:04 - Can have a more specific map, please?
I want to backstory of China.
Essentially the Qing dynasty expanded their influence well into Siberia during the 1700's. Since the Commonwealth would be more focused on Europe than Russia was in our timeline. Their capital in Warzaw would also be much further from the frontier. Making controlling Siberia more difficult. The Qing dynasty in this world still falls and is replaced with the republic of China. But since there is no rise of communism in Russia, there is no communist revolution in China either. This doesn't mean that China becomes a real democracy. But it does mean that it opens up it's economy much earlier. So it would also industrialize much earlier. So the rise of China as one of the world powers we see happening today, happens much earlier in this timeline. And throughout the 1900's they expand their authoritarian ideology and create a massive sphere of influence in much of Asia as well as some of Africa. Not very different from what they are attempting to do in our timeline today.
Great video! Perhaps a video on a world with a very fragmented China?
I want see demographic map of this version of commonwealth.
6:24 PLC would not allow Bosporus to go as it is in case of unrelenting wish of Russia to control it even today. The reason is that nobility who would benefit from trade via Black Sea would not allow to lose their access Mediterranean Sea meaning - there would always be money to pay for military to keep it operational.
Rave. The author ask how the colonization of Siberia took place. It was not the tsar who sent the Cossacks for the purpose of colonization. It was the Cossacks who went to the east, where they set up a fortress, with the aim of centralized collection of yasak (furs). Everything. Would the elite of this neoplasm refuse such easy money? I think the question is rhetorical.
And it doesn't matter who would be in power in this case, Russia / Poland / Sweden. Expansion would have happened anyway. There was no sense in laying, in the form of a vassal state at all.
The same goes for the colonization of southern Siberia. But there is more geography. Any country in that region would have to expand, because in the bare steppe there would be problems with defense from the raids of the steppe inhabitants.
Well, the expansion of the Qing to the north is even more delusional. What for ? There is no reason for this isolationist dynasty to move into wild, cold lands.
I think this is purely author's arbitrariness, so that the picture does not look so beautiful.
How about another video in this timeline about Greater China?
Could make for an interesting video. Maybe.
did Finland gain its independence during, before or after the Cold War
Way before, during WW1 in 1917.
Władysław IV would need switch back to catholicism if he wanted to be a king of PLC. It might cause two things 1) Russia break out of the union 2) Russia stays and christianity is 1 step closer to re-unitment.
Also PLC would rather seek to control Black Sea coastline, Crimea and up to Kaukasus. Then restoring rule over Moldavia, Wallachia, St. Stephen's Crown (Kingdom of Hungary, including Croatia), Bohemian Crown. Ultimetly fighting Habsburgs and Brandenburg under HRE, leading to re-gaining Silesia and Polish Pomerania (the very early polish rule).
South Slavs would rather be under Croatian-Hungary crown control (jointed with PLC) and some sort of Serbian Kingdom as PLC vassal. If Greece would be a separate entity PLC would demand end of orthodox faith. Then maybe recover old Byzantine cores due to falldown of Ottomans
On side quest Poland might took control over core Sweden, then ultimetly Kalmar Union to close the rule over Baltic Sea and Hansa. And at the very last recovering Lusitia and Polabia (Brandenburg), although Brandenburg would be rather a some sort a vassal state, since it's been torn in the ass after Brandenburg-Prussia ventures.
But PLC would not fight against France due to natural alliance against Habsburgs and HRE. Instead Napolen would form an alliance to dismantle any remainings of german states and puppet them 50/50.
So at the end PLC would rule everything east of Carolingian Empire borders from 814 (pretty much Iron Curatain borders with Austria Split) + all of Scandinavia. It probably would not switch names or just be a Commonwealth with polish culture and catholic faith dominating).
Some conflicts might occur between Napoleon Empire or British but Powers would just split colonial world and there would be no ww1/2. At this point slavs might be integrated is some sort of one nation and only nationalities of ugrofinic and germanic culture might become independent.
Well just to clarify, it would be never ever polish-russian commonwealth
I think it's clear like a sun
You know, the most unbelievable thing about this scenario is China not crashing and burning for most of its history due to being in a constant state of civil war.
Maybe the Han ethnicity had a few more baby-booms and replaced it's most subversive kin.
3:44 I don't really think that pan-slavism would provoke Commonwealth (moustly cause nationalism wouldn't been born yet) but maybe it was caused by inhereting the "Third Rome" idea from the tsardom (I dunno, this sounds better for me then just "we want united slav state") but, this is just a theory a game theory.
They would never want to be Rome. Polish nobility believed that they came from the land of ancient Sarmatians, who successfully defended themselves from Roman Empire and created their own state in Poland. They would most likely treat Rome as their oppressors of the past.
Cool video ;)
7:24 I don’t think Greece would lose their land in Anatolia because it was majority Greek
are you telling me we have a timeline of a northslavic democratic super power and a greek constantinople with no ww2 and we are stuck here?!?!
2:26 Lithuania’s wtf most of that land was Lithuania why is it Poland and Russia and not Lithuania p.s this isn’t serious but did make me slightly angry
The official name would include Lithuania. The official name would just be too long to fit in there. Also, it would still be a mostly Polish and Russian speaking empire with time. But ofc the duchy of Lithuania is a key part of it, it would be the second largest territory after Russia. The Lithuanians are just a minority there. The Duchy of Lithuania was interesting in that way. It was a pretty small amount of Lithuanians ruling over a vast mostly slavic territory. But as mentioned, until it reforms into Seveslavia, the official name would include the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. I just shortened it for practical purposes. Apologies
@@Neatling What about mongolians in mongolian empire? They also were minority in conquered lands.
@Albert Stavidlo Bullshit.
@Arthur Shangareev and Belarussian still have connection to Commonwealth culture and hero. For example Kościuszko.
@@LukasSRR
I Doubt any European Power would include "Mongol" in their name, especially Slavs; seeing as what the Mongols did to their people.
Romania: YES YES YES YES
Germany and russia: NO NO NO NO
So, it would stop by Ural mountains and wouldnt expand eastwards? If so, this thing wouldnd survive massive attacks like in 1812 and 1841.
Colonization of Siberia start because of influential noble families, colonization of Siberia starts also in this alt timeline.
7:22 Pomerania and silesia are Polish lands and lands of ex-east germany are polabian slavs lands
We also need to take Łużyce
@@TheSpadaLunga yeah and all those lands ive called above
Maybe a scenario of the teutons winning the battle on the Ice? Or maybe if the west didnt intervene in the Crimean war.
😂 Whilst I am bot at the end of the video, but near it I am a bit baffled the Pan-Slavoc Severoslavia wouldn't grind it's teeth on getting the lands of Czechs and Slovaks after they gained the South Slavs.
After all they are Slavic, most closely related to Poland and would a great Buffer between Warsaw and rest of Europe.
5:54 not true a bit. French were respected in Commonwealth, French language in Commonwealth was like English today. pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francuzi_w_Polsce . So it's unlikely that Commonwealth would support Brits
7:45 and wtf spreading American 'culture' and democracy bruh
Just because PLC was on good terms with France in our timeline doesn't mean it would be the same here. We're talking about such a major change that much of the history we know wouldn't happen at all. This Commonwealth would be a completely different country with different policies and ambitions and the reality this country would find itself in would be completely different by the beginning of the 18th century. Commonwealth totally could be seen as a challenge to the french interest especially if they successfully went full Third Rome mode or/and decided to expand their sphere of influence in the Europe.
4:56 -seeked- *sought*
Oops
It wouldn’t be the German empire I think it would be German Austrian Empire or something like that
holy Roman empire or German confederation. depending on how napoleon faired
This is perfect dream
A decent scenario is “if the polish Lithuanian common wealth collapsed earlier during the deluge”
I didn't see this flag or nation in Oversimplifieds video during the Napoleonic Wars it was just Russia not the polish or Russia common wealth?
Where the hell do u get those irl looking pictures
Can someone make 1h version of poland lithuanian commonwealth
Beautiful ( I'm from Poland btw).
Lmfao at big Greece meme, i can already tell what this guys politics are and where he’s from
Panslavism began after napoleon, so this is half bad scenario, but still interesting timeline
Could still happen in Poland without Napoleon, it was already kinda a concept in literature (for example the writings of Wojciech Dębołęcki) that would probably be popularized during romanticism
what is that third thingy in the thumbnail
i mean, the top left one is the polish white eagle (with a crown), the top right is lithuanian pogoń (or smth), and idk the bottom one
what is it
Well this isn't so stupid like others alt history scenarios
please don't forget why Belgium, whose founders were Republicans, became a Kingdom in 1830: no one wanted to be know as a weak mess, aka a Republic, in a sea of monarchies.
Ngl you kinda forgot lithuanians and baltics in general and only focused on the slavs...
I like how it is Polish-Russian commonwealth, while not Polish-Lithuanian-Russian commonwealth.
Kinda bias ngl
Seveslavia would be something awesome
Interesting alt history
Did u guys just remove the divisions or just the 3rd one?
7:51 hey! I’ve seen this one before!
In a one word, good Russian , I would like to live in a world where Europe is ruled by the Slavic Empire!
Germany: *chuckles* I'm in danger
so THAT's how Russia conquers Poland years before the 3 Emperors agreement, which name I forgot
well Poland conquers Russia
That would be a timeline where Poland conquers Russia. And it kinda did once - but only for 2 years
4:20 "Independent" and "subject" is not a thing. Its either one or the other.
seeing chine that big is just scary
It is a chunky China indeed lol. But despite the looks, it's population wouldn't be much higher. The only major addition would be Korea. But not that many live in eastern Siberia. It's like if the US annexed Canada. That wouldn't really change much either but the US would become the worlds largest country area wise. Still, it wouldn't change much. It would have a similar population, GDP and so on. In my scenario China's real strength is it's network of alliances across asia, much like the US's network of alliances in the scenario, as well as in the real world.
time to make a detailed version of this
brilliant!
Довольно интересный сценарий.
I think Greece wouldn't join the Central powers because as in our time feared the royal navy and now would fear the Polish army.
Normally nations would fall within 200 years, however Monaco has existed and is surviving since the Roman times!
The perfect timeline
in my opinion , better united states of PLM commonwealth then russia
What about relationships with neighbors?
why is is that no matter how far back you go, India is always colonized by the British and ends up being split into Pakistan and India.... bruh
Video Idea: Try Bohemian Empire either being maintained to today or re-emerged out of HRE.
Would be a different Slavic Empire but unlike Russia or even this one, it probably would not have the Pan Slavic Ideals.
Though it would fundamentally change the face of Europe as it was a State at its center, owning bits from north of Czech rep. Down to Austria and even a bit beyond. Essentially preventing Austria Hungary.
i love this
Seriously, if the Polish-Lithuanian nobles wanted to conquer Russia they would. But annexing Russia to the Commonwealth would mean exporting democracy to Russia, and we all know it's impossible to do. The nobles knew that too. That's why, even though the king wanted to be a king of Russia, there were never any plans by the Polish-Lithuanian parliament to annex Russia.
Why exporting democracy to Russia impossible?
And seven boyars is real event.
So polish king can be a tsar of Russia and Russia might be a part of Commonwealth.
@@tengia7927 Democracy requires the existence of a strong middle class. Something Russia doesn't have even now. It's the 21st century and Russians still look up blindly to their tsar, believing that nothing depends on them. Poland already had problems with the Lithuanian-Ruthenian magnates after creating the Union, and with the Cossacks who wanted to gain noble rights after the southern Lithuania was annexed to Poland even though they didn't want to behave like nobles. It'd be far worse if Russia joined too.
@@sylwiatimeFirst :Reformation of society.
Second: protests against Putin's dictatorship and battle groups like freedom of Russia.
And 1600 right in time of this russian-polish war ,in Russia crisis called,, time of troubles. This crisis was accompanied by instability, anarchy, drought, which led to hostility towards the royal power.
Immediately after the start of the war, in Polish-controlled territory, many peasants and boyars joined the Polish side.
Third: Again seven boyars is real event only reason why Russia isn't become part of Commonwealth is because boyars refuse to change religion to Catholic.
If Poland has solved problems with Lithuanian and Ruthenian magnates why Poland can't solve problems eith russian magnates.
Fourth: there are more advantages than disadvantages from this.
Pros: Minus a rival in the east, a significant increase in the population, and therefore the army, which will help in defeating other rivals - Sweden, the Ottoman Empire and the Habsburgs.
Increasing the economy and economic potential.
Cons: Problems with internalization, Separatism.
That's all.
Fallout 4 on a new levels
in those times, the Republic was multi-religious A Catholic lived next to a Jew, Orthodox Ruthenian (Lithuanian, today's Belarusian or Ruthenian Halicki, today's Ukrainian) even a Muslim Tatar, only Russia looked at Orthodoxy and looked at Poland as infidels, until we were Christianized Slavs lived in harmony Christianity and sects have divided us and now politics, what Russia is doing distances us from them as cousins, and their proximity to the Slavs, Slavs lived in harmony with nature, they were not aggressors, they knew how to defend themselves but valued peace, Russians love war therefore, they were closer to Batu Khan and the Mongols, after all, they were their vassals for a long time
Is Khmelnytsky uprising start because of Russia?
R.I.P Sweden
Always a good reason to have a danish beer ;)
Hoi4 modders be like: *write that down, write that down!*
Any alternative history channel in youtube makes video: "Lets give İstanbul to the Greeks." even if it is irrelevant.
Very sad that it changed to polish russian commonwealth
What if the PLC reformed today?
Then Russia cannot into space LOL
hey when in your timeline did silesia become German cos it got German after they joined Brandenburg Prussia when this event does not happen it should still be Slavic in the end probably joining Czechoslovakia or Poland
nah on XIX century polish or russian people woud go for world like rest of the word poland had clonies so they would expand more
Хороший сценарий, только экспансия в Сибирь точно бы была
Is that the Russian flag (or the French flag)? You're truly confused.