Changing Rein - Will Charlotte Save Equestrian Sport?
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- The video released this week showing high-profile Olympic rider, Charlotte Dujardin, whipping a horse has sparked a huge reaction around the globe.
This week on Changing Rein, Karen and Meta ask the question - could this be the catalyst to spark much needed change in the horse world?
Dr Karen Luke has owned horses most of her life and is an expert in ridden horse welfare and rider motivation.
Meta Osborne is an equine veterinarian of over 30 years experience and holds a Masters degree in animal welfare. She also owns and runs a successful thoroughbred stud.
I'm an equine welfare specialist and a member of the Oregon Racing Commission. The Dujardin incident will absolutely influence all equine disciplines as the public grows increasingly intolerant of the use of pain, fear, and coercion to improve equine performance. I've started a conversation in my role as commissioner about banning the use of the crop in Oregon horse racing; the crop could still be used for safety but not as "encouragement." Unless the public sees all the equine disciplines making tangible, meaningful steps toward welfare-centered reform, support will continue to decline and equine sports could eventually die out altogether.
Regarding the racing industry, the most eggregious thing, in that industry is how unsustainable breeding all those horses with very few wnners and so many of those beautiful animals ending up in the slaughter pipeline. I point this out because I feel in the horse welfare business people, often, do not see the forest from the trees and hyper focus on minor abuses when there are major abuses afoot. And care has to be taken so as not to 'cry wolf' and numb people to the whole concept of horse welfare.
Regarding crops in racing...I don't think using a crop under 5 times in a race is horrible abuse. More than that is too much so there certainly should be limits. We have to be concious human beings are very clever and they probably would come up with some other covert torture if whips are banned altogether. I could be wrong here, but I know enough about balance and trying to pass laws to correct things when all they do is introduce other offenses.
I 100% agree with you! Well said 👏
@@myronschabeamen 🙏
22:04 I understand the idea of banning the "difficult moves" from the Grand Prix test, the problem is that it is these moves that sort the "men from the boys" so to speak and make the Grand Prix test the test it is. So many times when I'm videoing a Grand Prix test someone will turn up at V-K to do the piaffe passage section and they rock on their seat and the horse does a bit of shuffling and you realise they just haven't got what it takes. I believe the only answer is to give the horses time to develop.
Thank you both for handling this particular issue sensitively, sensibly & from a place of knowledge. There wasn't anything I disagreed with you about.
Of course you can teach the horse to piaff and passage without force but instead positive reinforcement.
But what most people don't understand is that in positive reinforcement they really do offer lots of suggestions (which i just love), even the entire encyclopedia of what they can think of.
No, it shouldnt be strong reins or strong legs to give the horse a signal. If you can flip a lightswich without force it should be enough as a signal.
Thanks for commenting - I am super curious - have you trained piaff or passage with positive reinforcement? Or do you know someone who has? Is there a video or book explaining how it can be done? It would be great to share these.
Thank you for this intelligent conversation and not just demonzing Charlotte. I am certainly not condoning what she did but I am also certain she is deeply ashamed like she said. She has also done positive things for horses like advocating for turn out etc. The best thing she can do is own it and make it her business to talk about it honestly the pressures etc. and work toward changing the culture along with her peers.
We just need to take a step back, breath and fix things so horses are not paying the price of human frailty.
Banning piaffe-hmmm…. Piaffe I think was only ever meant to gather the horse for levade, which we don’t do. So in that sense, while it demonstrates ultimate collection, it’s a dead end.
Dujardin was trying to get more engagement and a more active canter out of that horse, which should come from behind, but obviously whipping it in the legs is no way to do that, especially since the rider (who seemed terrified) was pitching forward and riding the horse’s face rather than allowing the horse to go forward.
So there is a precedent of the sport walking away from certain dressage movements? That is so great to know - thank you!
And of course, moving away from certain movements, like piaffe, is just one of many options that could make dressage more sustainable. What changes would you like to see that would help dressage have a brighter future?
@@ChangingRein Yes, the “high school” movements or airs above the ground, such as levade, courbette and capriole are done in places like the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, but not in the Grand Prix test. They weren’t dropped so much as just not included.
Spot-on. Charlotte (and every other Grand Prix rider I've seen) works backward to create the illusion of collection, e.g. focusing on the legs in this case, rather than patiently building the horse up to progressive degrees of true collection. Banning piaffe wouldn't make any difference, and it can, in fact, be trained and done kindly and sustainably -- compare the modern piaffe to the true piaffe of the classical masters. I do think piaffe, done correctly, has a purpose besides leading into levade, as a demonstration of the horse's extreme ability to collect. I would like to see modern dressage learn from Charlotte and the many other scandals and return to its classical roots, rather than patch over the problem by banning a certain movement.
@@denimsnake All true, and as part of that we need to address what judges reward, or are perceived as rewarding, as well as pressure from owners and other connections to rush horses up the levels at the expense of proper foundations and development.
Your assessment of the this situation is very good indeed. Business has taken over .
Rich parents expect CD to create miracles and get their children to the top.
I can see what she is trying to achieve she wants the horse to push under more with
the hind legs so he carries himself better. The horse does have protection bandages on. The proper way to achieve this is tempo changes and half halts. plus gradual muscle building.
All CD'S horses she competes look happy and relaxed. She does sell some of her top horses for no doubt enormous sums.
Sometimes she keeps horses at home for 2 or 3 years without competing and just trains them. Examples are Hawtins San Floriana and Florentina. They suddenly appeared again and starting winning again. All her horses are hacked out and go in the field every day. Her top horse Imhotep lives out all the time.
I think CD needs to take herself back to her roots, stop teaching and enjoy her horses.
The pressure obviously got to her to achieve results. It's just not worth it, she already is very rich.
Send this video to the FEI. AND Charlotte, it will help them sort it all out.
Great perspective - thanks! - and we really hope our small contribution encourages positive change for dressage.
@@ChangingRein I was so impressed with the wise, understanding words in your video.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said at the end; Charlotte, instead of vanishing into the shadows, embarrassed, bitter and angry, or maintaining her lame excuse that it was a "lapse of judgement", a "moment in time", "long ago", etc. The best outcome could be that she'd become a true welfare ambassador for horses, fully owning what she did (and probably has been doing all along, before and after the video), apologising it publicly and sincerely, humbling herself and completely reconsidering everything she thinks she knows about horses. A fresh start, this time genuinely on the side of the horses, and in their terms. It does take courage to do such a thing, but Charlotte, if you read this, we're on your side if you make this brave move. We all make mistakes, we all have skewed opinions and ideas about many things in life. But we all must strive to change when we're in the wrong. That's how abuse ends and the world will be a better place for us all.
I propose Charlotte install CCTC cameras, let her train horses and compete. I bet she wouldn't win or achieve anything just by using carrots.
Your whole comment is laughable. Imagine if person who was caught on camera committing violence against other human, like diddy, would become anti violence activist.
@@PandaPanda-cn7yn Actually there are many examples of people, either animal or human abusers, who later changed their minds and ways and became public proponents of a better way. So I don't think it's laughable. Rare, maybe, due to the unfortunate human tendency for pride and inability to accept responsibility and humble oneself. Especially publicly. But I do think it's still possible.
@@ruthm1384 Okey, I think you're a bit naive. My main thing is that dressage is animal abuse in itself. Horses are forced to do unnatural thing and they definitely not enjoying it. Like I said there's no way to make horses "dance" with just positive reinforcement. I would love if they would require to install CCTV cameras. Let's see how many carrots it takes for a horse to learn a pirouette.
@@PandaPanda-cn7yn I didn't even mention dressage. I wholeheartedly agree that it in itself is abuse, and I wish to see it end, altogether. What I had in mind was the hope that some people would change their minds about this torment we put so many horses, and other animals, through, and come out publicly and lead the way into a better future. Which as one result, for example, could hopefully see the end of dressage as a competitive sport altogether. And all competitive horse sports. Call it a naive dream if you like, but it's my hope.
People can and do change, if I should mention one, perhaps I could name Milestone Equestrian, for example. She has just recently posted examples of how she used to treat her horses terribly, abuse them in her ignorance, but later changed her ways. Now she's an ambassador for treating horses with kindness, cruelty free.
Realistically, I don't see much hope for the top names though, just like in everything in the world, the most vile people are probably far too hardened and darkened in their hearts to ever see the light of truth, or become capable of such deep rehabilitation that they could own their mistakes and humble themselves publicly. And when you throw money in the mix, greed and hunger for recognition can turn people into monsters. But it doesn't take away my hope that even just some of the biggest names would change. Charlotte, or someone else. I think all humans have the potential for goodness, if they are capable of reaching it inside. And although we live in a very dark and confused world, we must press on in our pursuit for making it better. For the horses of the world, and everyone. Why else should we campaign for the end of animal abuse at all, if not for that hope glimmering in our hearts?
100 percent agree with your comment and have been thinking the same thing myself.
25:12 surely a two day old foal does know how to piaffe, what you have to train them to do is to do it when you ask? But I was watching the racing this afternoon and I wondered how do they know when the gate flies open to race? Why don't they all just put their heads down and eat?
In terms of FEI and dressage and what they should do:
1.) They need to have some symposiums and discuss the theory behind dressage and what it is meant achieve. People need to get back to the whys of things. There needs to be agreement that in the age horse welfare is paramount, and what contitutes excellence and acheivement....and with that HARMONY needs to emphasized.
2.) All horse competitions need to allow for thing like bitless and snaffles etc., spurs optional etc. at all levels of competition. There should be no enforcement of certain kinds of tack: bits, double bridles and so forth. There is already movements underfoot where human/horse relationships can acheive incredible things but they don't compete because they don't use the required tack.
Stuff like this, but saying all that...people should be civil and not aggressive and righteous toward each other, that would go a long way.
Du Jardin was whipping the horse to try an get the animal to make a bigger stride with its hindlegs.. The horse was reluctant to make bigger strides because the riders bit contact with the horses mouth- explicitly under DuJardins direction was far to heavy and severe. and was in effect telling the horse to stop- at the same time her legs were telling the horse to go.- The mixed message to the horse was go- no- don't go.
The other part of the problem is that the modern show dressage horses are mostly gigantic warmbloods and Piaffe is a movement best performed by Andalusians, Lippizans, and Shagyas.
best
Bruce Peek
An interesting video, although a leopard doesn't really change its spots and could we really get over the hypocrisy of an alleged animal abuser suddenly becoming an ambassador for horse welfare? I don't think so. The sport will be keen to show that this is a one off, both for the individual and for the sport in general, and sentence it as such. They will achieve that as long as there are no other whistle blowers and as long as the accused doesn't turn King's evidence.
There is absolutely no excuse for EVER ABUSING THESE BEAUTIFUL ANIMALS!!! Charlotte is one very sick individual that needs help. As others have said, this is not her first rodeo, most likely it's a common every day practice for her. Her behavior and treatment of horses is horrific! One book that every horse owner should read is "Horses Never Lie" by Mark Rashid. Mark states "It has always been my contention that working with horses is, or at least should be, a delicate balancing act between finding how much or how little direction it will take to help the horse we are working with understand whatever is is we are trying to teach. Too little direction and our efforts might become ineffective. Too much direction and we may develop resistance and animosity between our horse and us" To abuse or dominate any animal for our monetary is wrong.
Pressure to run a business is not an excuse to abuse a horse with a whip.
She can not save it. She should take her riding cap and go. She said in her statement that it was 4 years ago. Why is this important? And if you see this video you know that it was probably not the only and last one she did it.
Thanks for your comment - we agree - one person cannot save equestrian sport.
But maybe this incident might spark all of us to start asking more questions about why, what and how we do the things we do with our horses. It's only when we start to ask questions can we discover new and better goals, and new and better ways to achieve our goals.
Since starting Changing Rein, we have identified many opportunities to help make sport better for horses - not only in dressage, but other sports too. Would you enjoy an episode where we talk about some of these?
@anjaherrmann9457. I hope you don't pay for animal abuse and eat them. The abuse of animals in farming industries is horrific and their are no exceptions but i'm sure. you don't support animal cruelty.
@ChangingRein I'm 58, I've been riding all my life as have numerous friends, and none of us have resulted in this kind of training to win.... winning is only relative to the position in life you are... so the pressure to win at 90cms is as high to win at advanced for individuals for many reasons.... I know so many excellent riders at intermediate level who train on kindness, ability and love....Charlotte is a Bully, an animal abuser and the animal rights people will make it impossible for her to return...!
@@clairesuzanne1276 I hope you are not paying for horrific animal abuse and eating them.
@@clairesuzanne1276 I sometimes ride in my free time, without of training the horse. And I always pay attention to the horse, because it also has a right to say no.
The comment about Piaf being the movement that was being trained in the video clip…. I don’t think that is correct, you don’t train pilaff in a corner ( you actually slow the movement along a long wall to make smaller steps - over time) .. the video movement at the time it starts looks to be part of a pirouette or half pirouette… the horse then walks to mid way down the long wall and then commences trot just before cornering down the other end in to a circle ( Dujardin Whips from start to finish ). Comments about Piaf seem irrelevant to the video of Dujardin . Yes, Ai can be used, but they have to pay for that to be developed - a lot of time for manual annotations of thousands of images for each stress pain indicator is needed to train the AI program ( I am doing it for equestrian horses as a hobby), I don’t own horses but like dressage because it is the only Olympic sport that is not based on gender of the competitor/ or the gender of the partnership of horse and rider. The sport can be done with a happy horse and with first class welfare when ethical owners, ethical riders , ethical grooms etc correctly train a horse classical dressage over a long unrushed period, the horse (happy and properly trained ) wants to perform. It is also interesting that everyone presumes ‘welfare’ in a particular way/context… typically only during competition stage of a horses career (ie 4 to about 16/17years for equestrian sports) , what about the welfare of the horse “post competition life cycle stage” (ie 16/17 to death) …. FEI /national federations doesn’t seem to be concerned … where is the long term future welfare component being accrued (during the competition life cycle stage) to looked after the horse in its post competition life cycle stage of the horse ( yep that is not in the business elements interest is it) …nor is it in the interests of national federations to enforce their own rules, because it more often than not damages their own revenue sources, so they prefer to hide it and give lip service. some of British dressage comments put out around the time of the Dujardin Video breach their own rules about dealing with others. Comments by members of other national federations such one well known breeder and seller in the Netherlands also did a similar breach of the rule concerning treatment of others. Not to mention the witch-hunt by “a connected individual/parties” about who is the whistle blower, and that/those unscrupulous influential skunks setting the media pack (and others) off after the alleged whistle blower…. All while giving the impression of being at distance and condoning Dujardin - yep, don’t expect to see that skunk/skunks disciplined for breach of the rules on treatment of others… but… the skunk king does not realise their ship ‘leaks’, and it is only time before their “ship founders on the rocks” for everyone to see!
what i am hearing is WAY too soft on AN APPALLING TREATMENT OF AN ANIMAL, ..I am first in being an apologist of all sorts and shapes , but animal mistreatment, abuse, or neglect is something that absolutely outrages me, it's completely atrocious and unacceptable in any way shape or form, . .even the way you comment " less than desirable behaviour " is totally bordering obscene, this in not less than desirable this is horrendous, and there is a difference between looking at the positive side of things , and contributing to the very attitude that contributes to acceptance or engagement of such things . .you point out , and i concur, that this is not an individual issue but a broader public issue, but i think i would say is this a dressage issue?, i mean literally . .i don't do dressage, is this what needs to be done to get a horse to do dressage and the whole world doesn't know the real truth about it? . .And if this is the way Charlotte trains i'm positive Carl Hester does that too . .
No you are not going to save sport dressage- ever- If you are going to blather on about how beneficial dressage is for horses you first need to define your terms- Classical Dressage is indeed beneficial for all horses- show dressage is not and is in fact abusive of horses..
best
Bruce Peek
There is so much wrong with the horse
Industry . What about big lick which goes on in the USA . Over breeding horses let alone horses raised for bronking only to go to kill pens after there career which is short .
And race horses and Arabians been breeding to look strange.
It's really sad . It's all about money for many and not care .
Also prestige and power . So sad .
Thankyou for the discussion.