Spindexer Indexer 1
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2013
- In this video we begin a build along project for modifying a 5C Collet Spindexer so it can directly do some of the functions of a dividing head. The example is from a viewer suggestion of 127 divisions which requires compound indexing normally. The modifications can be used for almost any number of desired direct index stops.
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The PIN is on a circular path and your holes are on a straight path so you need to rotate each circle of holes to compensate for the difference between the paths. It may be trivial, but will make your gear go click click 3 times per turn. Great videos!!!
Steve
My thought was to stagger each hole pattern after doing the math and I see several more folks were thinking along the same lines thank you
Hi Rf,
There is more to come and some subtle details that were not shown in this first video. Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the comment and telling us a little about yourself. I will be sure to get a pin up for you on the next go around.
Regards,
Tom
Thanks Tom for all of the videos. I am new to your channel and am very glad I found it as well as some of the others you recommend. I am a hobbyist who likes to build model engines and am stuck without a way to index. I've found all of your videos very helpful and will be following along.
Robert from Rochester Hills, MI
Hi ensen,
Stay tuned there are some details that you have not seen yet in the first episode that will answer your questions. Be patient all will be revealed.
Best,
Tom
Hi tosborn,
I think a stepper could turn one of these pretty easily. Mounting it might be a little tricky to do nicely. Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
Cool Tom, I have my spin indexer and stock ready to go.Thanks for making this cool work along project.
Hi Ron,
Stay tuned there are some details that you have not seen yet in the first episode that will answer your questions. Be patient all will be revealed.
The soda bottle is a coolant dispenser system I'm developing and testing now. Not a kool mist.
Best,
Tom
Hi Oliver,
Thanks for the comment. There are parts of the design that were not shown on the first video that should answer your questions. I salute you for stepping up and commenting. Be patient and all will be revealed. Perhaps there is a small slot that you don't know about.
Regards,
Tom
Clever intro Tom, can't wait to see the rest, love what you can do with the autocad. Gordon. AUS
Hi Ahz,
Stay tuned. There are details you have not seen yet. Please pause judgement for just a little while longer.
Best,
Tom
looking forward to it. built min out of some 3/1'4- anger steel & tided it up in the lath , after it was Welded up money being. tight & all the time,
Mate thanks for these Vids. Awesome for us beginners.
Listen guys.
You lock the indexer up before you change the index pin radius. The unit has two separate and definitive locking elements that allow you to reposition the swinging arm and the disc. You could remove the disc and replace it if you wanted to and not lose your starting position.
Please review you comments before submitting them as it takes time for me to answer the same question a dozen times.
Regards,
Tom
Very clever, Tom, simple and direct I like it!
I'm enjoying this thank you for sharing, looking forward to the future videos.
Haven’t seen this idea before but looks like a great solution! 👍
Hey Tom
This is a brilliant video. Many thanks for sharing. Although i do not have access to a spindexer, i use a standard 40:1 dividing head, this has given me ideas how to achieve 133 and 157 spacings in the near future with my other non used fixtures.
Hi Per,
You could indeed reverse the positions of the fixed parts. There are some details that I didn't show on the first video that should help explain the operation better. Stay tuned.
Best,
Tom
Hi Notaroad,
Please wait for the next installment. All will be revealed. There are details you have not seen yet. Please pause judgement for just a little while longer.
Best,
Tom
Hi Liam,
This is exactly what the 127 gear is for. If you do a little math you will see that 25.4 is a whole number factor of 127. Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
it a booger when you shit at math. LOL .
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the lead. I'll check it out. If this goes well we may expand on the whole modification menu.
Best,
Tom
Absolutely Tom, I have "Screwcutting in the lathe" by Martin Cleeve which I rate highly. It covers using metric lathes to cut imperial threads in detail (and vice versa). Both of my lathes are from pre-decimalisation (in the UK) so its something I'm a little familiar with.
Perfect job for a 3d printer. Design and print the disk you need.
Hi E,
Your three quarters of the way done with that indexer. The sides on mine are machined already.
Best,
Tom
Hi Joz,
Its actually acting like a flat spring so it can be retracted from the index hole. The length plays no part in the accuracy of each particular stop. Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
I got a 100 tooth gear for Christmas, looking forward to using it to make decimal indexing plates.
+Dinkys Workshop Santa brought you a gear for Christmas? I thought gears were stocking stuffers.
All the best,
Tom
Hi Don,
I getting that spreadsheet feeling again. The index pins in the front are actually a vernier. A vernier works by cramming say ten divisions in the space that would normally be taken by nine divisions. Written as, main scale N Vernier scale N-1. For an example of a very clever angular vernier look up the Newbould indexer. This uses a clever setup to make angular indexes down to seconds of arc if I remember correctly.
Regards,
Tom
Hi E,
The one I really want to build is the Harig Ultra grind type with a 5C or and interchangeable small chuck. Lets see how this first build along goes.
Best,
Tom
Hi Johnny,
Good question. The holes in the index plates will be put in using cartesian coordinates instead of an angular indexing method.
Best,
Tom
Hi Bill,
I downloaded it and tried it last night. I had trouble getting the sound to record. It recorded the screen fine but it didn't want to pick up the microphone. I am scrounging for another mic to see if that makes a difference.
Best,
Tom
Hi David,
Any discs will do. You can always change the index pin size to suit a thinner disc. Good idea as I see these in the scrap yards all the time.
Regards,
Tom
i uses Deron if you cant afford to buy melt-old milk boatels thats is as had as nails & cuts well . Les England
Man how many hours in a day do you get, New book out, 4-5 videos a week, blog site, and your job. I don't know how you do it all. I hope you know how much we appreciate all that your doing to share all your knowledge with us. Im looking forward to getting the new book, love the sink or swim book. Thanks!!
Hi Ahz,
Please wait for the next installment. All will be revealed. There are details you have not seen yet. Please pause judgement for just a little while longer.
Best,
Tom
Hi Chris,
I was thinking if this build along goes well the next modification could be to add a 40:1 worm reduction and make a proper dividing head out of one of these. Put your thinking cap on.
Best,
Tom
After your last video on the spindexer I went out to the shed and pulled my Klamazoo clone off the shelf and finally cut the sides square so you can hold it in a vise. The Klamazoo indexers are designed to bolt down and have as-cast sides. The index plate is replaceable, the default is 24 hole.
Greetings.
Great channel, awesome of you to share your work and tricks of the trade with the world.
I have a question concidering the accuracy of the transition between the hole circles.
Would it not be better to have the indexer plate mounted to the housing and have the locating pin on the shaft, with a slot thingy it can slide up and down, like a traditional indexer?
Cheers,
Per
Hi James,
When you came out with your series on your coolant dispenser I didn't want to hog the stage. That's why I'm so interested in your build. The 2L soda bottles burst at 190psi. And how might I know that you wonder? How much was that filter housing?
Maybe put a segway in for me on your next video.
Regards,
Tom
Tom looking forward to the build and machining of the lexan. Perhaps explain how you would build the collar. The more advanced viewers could fast toward that portion. Thanks for your efforts.
Hi Lars,
127 is a special case since its a prime number. If you can work that one out I think the math community would want to talk to you. To tell the truth I didn't consider that because I wanted to preserve as much of the stock indexer as possible.
Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
For the smaller prime Numbers (eg. 23 or 29), presumably, you could just make a disc to replace the one that is originally fitted to the spin indexer?
Not a problem segway on the way. The filter housing I got on sale for about $18. I had the regulators and other stuff sitting around. Pressurizing the coolant sure is the trick, I turned that off and ran it like a siphon setup and you really have to crank up the air, makes a real mess.
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. I do agree with other comments that some air is being introduced with your design. I'm sure you will address it. NRN
Hi Opinionator,
Good point. There are some really smart guys that throw up some excellent comments. Sometimes its difficult to mine the comments for good content but there are some real nuggets in there. Please continue the practice.
Regards,
Tom
Hi E,
That would work with an accurate fixture. The only thing I would worry about is the accumulated error. Any error in the fixture gets reproduced and summed. When you position for each hole the errors are distributed hopefully on a gaussian distribution.
Good idea,
Best,
Tom
Tom: I've been thinking about how to mate-up a stepper motor with a spin indexer. There are a number of projects where people have attached stepper motors to indexing heads and rotary tables, and that's pretty straightforward. However, its not as easy with a spin indexer. With indexing heads and rotary tables you get the advantage of the built-in mechanical gearing that a spin indexer would not have. But there are stepper motors with attached gear boxes that could be used for a spindex.
Hi James,
No problem. There is more to come and some details that were not shown in this first video. Its all good.
Regards,
Tom
Hi Matt,
Not sure where "here" is. Seems like if you are in a metric country a clamping collar with a 45mm ID should be readily available and a 1.75 inch collar would be harder to come by. A smaller inside diameter collar will need to be modified to fit the 5C spin indexer spindle which seems to be consistent at 45mm regardless of brand. Some folks are making them from scratch also.
Regards,
Tom
Would the length of the spring/arm that holds the index pin have to be a certain length or pivot a certain distance from the centerline of the fixture?ie: the triangle from hole to hole to the pivot seems to me would change when you went to a different hole circle.thanks
I don't have a mill but I'll be following along anyway,
Very clever.....although this is donkey's years old it has added a solution to the regular spin indexer mod of 2020 where the indexing ring is turned around to work it from the other end so as to clear the large index ring end for grinding or milling etc.
The part I found interesting is the split clamp ring to clamp on the end of the barrel when the new index plate is added.......on the later end for end mod that will allow the 36 space index ring to be clamped firmly without the 3 screws that were used to do it in another much later video.
Hi Oliver,
There are some design details for the 127 index that you have not seen yet. There is a method to accurately do the half division you speak of. For any number of holes on a single radius the half division is not needed. 127 is a special case. Please be patient, pause judgement for a while and all will be revealed.
Regards,
Tom
Hi James,
You lock it before you move the swinging index pin to the different circle.
Best,
Tom
I use camstudio too I record our cnc plasma cutter display to help with troubleshooting while the machine is going. It works well and is easy to learn and use just make sure to use their codec and the quality is very good.
Very great project Tom.
Just take care of the pin and the small arm as there is 3 radius on the disc, you need to have those 3 dimensions on the arm. If not you will not be able to insert the pin inside all the 3 radius holes without moving the disc !
Hi CHris,
Should we initiate a hat stretching fixture for the benefit of your new found fame? Could send you a yank thinking cap but my understanding is the polarity is reversed.
Best,
Tom
How much time does it take to create this set of drawings given reasonable skill and how much time to learn the software given some experience with engineering drawings? I mean a WAG no guarantees, of course.
Hi Tom: How do I mount the indexer, so I can square up the bottom sides of my indexer and remain parallel to the spindle. My indexer is just a painted an rough on the sides and I want to be able to mount it in my vice? Thx Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Watch all the video's. I show a couple ways folks can square up the bases in one of the video's so the spin indexer can easily go in the vise.
Cheers,
Tom
To be clear, for designs with one ring of holes, what you have works great. For designs with two rows of holes, it can be made to work perfectly, to the accuracy one can locate the spring arm. For three or more rings, you'll have some error.
One source of disks would be hard disk platters.They are aluminum and the coating is pretty sexy looking too.It is a little thin but free is good also. Just turn a mandrel and do a little trepanning cut to make the inner diameter.
Cool video and idea Tom. Looking forward to seeing the rest of it. Now I'm going to finally buy myself one of those spin indexers. Lol. Hey, don't you love all of the same kind of comments, especially things you've already replied to, but people post them anyways because they don't read the previous comments!
😂😂😂😂😂😂yup
This is for me personally going to be really interesting to watch. As usual there are some alleged critics that are already jumping in - they really don't get it at times!!
I like the swing pin idea bit the swing pin moving on a radius will introduce a small problem. An elegant way around it might be to offset the 127 radial projection lines as they pass through each radius on the disc by the amount the swing radius moved.
Looks cool, I have a few things I can think of that would benefit from some time in the spindexer :)
Aloha, Chuck
Hey Chuck,
Don't do a thing. I always thought you were spun just the right amount.
All the best,
Tom
oxtoolco
I love consensus! :D
Maybe I'm thinking too deep into this, but won't your pattern be thrown off a little when the spring is pivoted from one hole circle to the next? Because it is moving in a radius the distance from the pivot point to the outer circle is shorter than it would be to the inner circle. ????
Hi Jeff,
Watch all the video's. All will be revealed. You are correct that it would cause an inaccuracy but we have a way to get around that.
cheers,
Tom
I was thinking the same thing. The pin armature would have to remain at 90 degrees perpendicular to the disk shaft for this to be accurate.
justmycomments Hey Comments,
Did you watch all the series to see how we deal with the radius of the arm? Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the lead. I'll check that out. Having the camera in front of the computer is a pain.
Best,
Tom
Hi Tom, I don't quite understand why you don't just make another dividing plate replacing the original and use the vernier holes to get 127 spaces. Wouldn't that work?
Tom,
I bought a 5C spin index on Friday and am following along with this build. I should have all the raw materials needed in the scrap bin. Looking forward to the next instalment!
Would you mind posting your Solid parts/assembly files on your blog? I think they'll be handy if I end up building different index plates.
Check out Camstudio if you plan to do more screencasts. It does screen recordings and is free. You can record your voice with your camera or with a cheap mic. Worth a try.
Hey Tom
Really enjoying your videos! Am I right in guessing that the 127 divisions is part of a metric/imperial conversion. Some people may not be aware that you can directly gear a tpi lathe lead screw to cut perfect millimeter pitch threads using a 127/50 gear set.
Bets Regards
Liam Mc (West Wales, UK)
The Kalamazoo indexer seems to be modeled after the Harig indexer, which means it's more compact, more rigid, but not as flexible in purpose as a spindexer. I could make index plates that attach to the face of the spindle and put a shot pin on the top, have a quick look at the Kalmazoo Industries website. Seems like a round tuit project at some point.
Hey Adam,
This is why copy and paste, and paste and paste and ....... was invented.
Talk to you soon bud.
Tom
With row of holes, you would drill 3 holes, 1 center and 2 index. For 36 holes you have 2 holes 5 degrees off a machine axis. For a 2.5 inch radius that is +/- .2178 off Y zero, 2.4904 from your X zero. y offset = sin(180/divisions) * radius. The sine value of 180 degrees divided by the number of divisions, multiplied by the radius. X offset is sqrt(2.5^2 - y offset^2). The square root of the radius squared minus the y offset squared. With an accurate jig, you could use a drill press.
(Very late to this series) I didn't see any answer to the begged question of why anyone would need a 127 toothed gear.
The reason is so that you can cut metric threads on an imperial geared lathe (or cut imperial threads on a metric geared lathe).
1 inch is 25.4 mm (near enough) and 127 is half of 254. So it is an imperial to metric bridging gear.
1' is exactly 25.4mm per the United States customary units. prior to WWI or WWII the US, Canada and Great Briton each had a different inch, this was standardized by the USCS.
I had a old triumph lath that had 150 tooth fears. & As bug a dine plats & that where Centres wear quit wide in the hols that when i found out that using a gear to set up the first cut , enabled the opportunity to cut all you teeth one set of plats once you had your first set of hole centres cut. les England
@@erniepike3902 Thanks. I have since learned that for engineering 1 inch is DEFINED as 25.4 mm.
Hi, I was thinking about the lever for fixating the chosen hole. Since it has a radius of travel it will also need the hole pattern to travel along with it, which will cause a problem of accuracy while moving between the three rows of hole patterns. Hard to describe what I mean since I'm a Swed. In a perfect world the fixating pin has to travel in a straight line from the center axis and out or vice versa. Do you understand what I mean? The longer lever equals the greater radius which in turn makes the fault as little as possible, and the smaller the radius is, the bigger the problem will be while moving between the rows.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Hi Helikopter,
Jump to the last video and you will see how the the indexer works. You have not seen the whole assembly in action.
Best,
Tom
oxtoolco
Sorry man, now I've seen the whole thing. Thanks for doing all this inspiring stuff. =)
Hello, I am from Brazil, I would like to build a similar, the scale of 10 fixed holes do you know how many degrees has each spacing?
use a gear . the size you reqiesr to achieve your degree centres , one you have a set of hole any number can then be archived as you continue one you redux the number & , radius ,
Tom; i would put three holes in the sector arm to eliminate the error, although it is small but easily corrected. also ? about the shasta bottle looks like you eliminated the stainless tank for a cool mist. also i see you have a new book out. can i get it threw your web sight? Thanks for what you do, Ron Schmaltz
Hi Tom,
Nice project - looks like fun. I'm not a master with rotary indexing, so this may be a dumb question, but because you are creating your odd-ball array of holes on three different radii, connected with a segment of a line form the center of the circle, doesn't the indexing pin need to be aligned with that line? What I mean is that you do all the cut around the outer circle just fine, but when you swing the spring arm with the pin to the next inner circle, there is now an offset...
cool I like it.
Hi Smurf,
127 is a special case because its a prime number.
Best,
Tom
Hi Tom, would love to do as you suggest but since winning those awards I was telling you about, my head has swollen so much that it no longer fits and the local milliner has clean run out of stock.:>)
ATB
chris
PS end float is/can be/would be a problem, not insurmountable but annoying
Hi Simon,
Don't worry you're not alone. There are some details that were not shown in the first video. Be patient all will be revealed.
Best,
Tom
Very nice. I was given a phase II ratcheting index. Maybe I can adapt some of this and apply it to that model.
Hi Gavin,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
...and the indexing is now from a different datum. Do you just reset the setup to go to the other two circle arrays? I'm just wondering, because my hunch is that if you were to cut something with 127 spots, it would have an introduced error at two points (and beyond) due to the swinging of the index spring arm. I'd think you want a three position fixed element, with all three holes aligned on the ray of the circle. Just my $0.02
1.75" (44.45mm) shaft collars are more widely available here than 45mm. (And the customs charges on a McMaster order can add up.) Will the 0.55mm difference make a difference? I assume not. Possibly a dumb question, but others might wonder the same.
Hi Tom,
love your video's! what would be your advise to mill a round bar (around 60mm) to a hexagon with simple tools, so without a dividing head or indexing head?
thx in advance
Teun (the Netherlands)
Hi Teun,
The full length of the bar or just near the end? Are you making something like a nut or something like a bolt? I would mill two parallel flats then use my 30/60 triangle set on a block to index against the flats. Index around and hexagon.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
Hi Tom, I am planning to make a hexagon collet block for B32 collets. I start with 60mm round 120mm long 42CrMo4.
Hi Teun,
The cheapest and simplest method would be to mill two parallel sides then index with a pair of 30/60 triangles that you can get fairly cheap. Index then mill the opposing parallel side. If you really want to go inexpensive you could use a hex head bolt or hex allen wrench as your "standard". It will depend how accurate you want your collet block to be.
cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
Thx Tom, I will go for the less cheap option since I happen to have some nice 30/60 blocks.
Do you have any experience with single point cutting of a 45/5 degrees internal buttress thread. I am able to do the external one but internal is still a mystery
Hi Tom,
the next challenge I stumbled upon was the internal thread in the nut to pull the collets. It is a 45/5 degrees buttress thread. I am able to single point the external thread and grind the tool to do that but the internal gives me trouble. I know that you have to "mirror" the tool with respect to the external one.
At first everything goes well and with a thread depth of approx 1.6mm the collet screws on fine for a couple of turns but then stops. If I make the thread deepeer the only result is that the total diameter of the hole becomes to large for the collet. What do I do wrong?
the collet type is B32 btw.
thx
Teun
Tom, are you planning on doing an index plate to drill the holes? With CAD it should be real easy to figure out the static hole locations, then drill one, spin and pin, ad nauseam.
Greetings Tom
you have to compensate for the arc of the indexing pin prior to drilling the holes in the index plate
great thank you
There is a significant flaw in the design. The indexer pin is guided in a radial motion around its base (the long hex nut). Let's asumme we would have three holes on the index plate next to each other on one of the radial lines (towards the index plate center). If we'd register the pin in each of these holes the index plate would need to move (very sightly) thus changing the angle of the work piece. So the index will be wrong/crooked in principle.
So how to fix this:
1. Easy way: consider the radial motion of the index pin in the design: Rotate the inner round arrays of bores according to different location of pin. An over the thumb guess would be 0.3 degrees clockwise for the middle ring of bores. (Autocad will help to determine this with high precision)
2. A more diffcult fix: Redesign in a way that the index pin is guided on a straight line towards the center of the index plate. E.g. in a slot or so.This will avoid the problem too.
In practice probably noone will notice this issue as the result is just ~0.x degrees of course. But I like my tools to be as precise as possible to begin with.
Hi Squeeze,
I suggest you jump to the last video in the series of the spinindexer so you understand all the design details. It will save you a lot of typing. Thanks for the comments and suggestion.
Kind regards,
Tom
Okay, you fixed this issue. Good point there, appologies for juming on this issue a bit to early.
I'm not 100% happy with the alingment. To switch between two radi there are extra steps neccessary. That adds complexity to the work process. In my eyes that is not helpful.
For a 2.0 upgrade of your fixture, let me suggest to use a fixed length index pin blade (It is currently slotted in your design). I'd then suggest to check the geometry: Where is the index pin hitting the radi of the index plate and use the deviation from a straight line to offset the hole circle on the given radius accordingly. (I hope you get what I mean)
Sounds more complex, but actually this thought is done once in the production of the index plate instead of (probably) each production run. Especially if you make fine gears, you'd save a lot effort and error prone steps.
Usually I'd order the index plates from a company that lasers them out of aluminum (or any other material). Producing them manually seem more punishment than fun to me.
Assuming CNC'ed index plates makes the above a "one-click-adjustement" in autocad and also makes the production of the slotted block obsolete ...
Anyway - I enjoyed the video series and your videos in general. Good job!
Sqeezerful Hi Squeeze,
I'm glad you liked the series. I had the thought of modifying the index pin end so it was on a threaded micrometer adjustment. Also putting the hole plate radii in the right spot is a simple step that just works better, The problem was with the three hole radii in the index plate. There had to be some adjustment available to accommodate the weird case of 127. Laser cutting the discs is a great idea as well. Thanks for your participation.
Cheers,
Tom
Gotta ask, what's the purpose of the plastic bottle on the side of the mill?
couldnt you index the disk? for most numbers? so if you have 150 holes you have 50 hole to index the sindle and 3 hole to index the disk? (this wouldnt work with 127 because its a prime number without major difficultly)
Hey Distill,
We need to index the part ultimately. Indexing the disk you have to make a very accurate index. When the indexes are spread over many divisions there is error averaging happening. If you indexed the disk the single index has to be really good.
Cheers,
Tom
Neat project. But I don't understand why the lone hole couldn't be in one of the two circles. Thanks for your good videos.
Hi HH,
The hole spacing for 127 holes is too close for any of these circles. If I added the stray hole to one or the other circles the hole next to it would intersect it and make a figure eight hole. Hope that makes sense. With a large enough disc there is no need to change radii. The smaller disc sized was used so the indexer can still sit directly on the mill table. Hope this clarifies your question.
Best,
Tom
I take it that the viewer with the 127 divisions in mind is trying to make a metric conversion set for a banjo on a lathe?
Hi Jerome,
You are correct. A prime number with a factor of 25.4. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Worm and wheel, with the wheel where Tom's putting his bought in collar and the worm on the motor. End float can be a problem on spindexers so steps would need to be taken to reduce it.
nice soda bottle fog buster!@3:01
Hi Hedron,
It works great and is cheap like me. Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
I can't get my head around how you transition from one circle to the next when doing the indexing. The pin on the new pivoting arm just pivots around? Is that pivot an issue? Should it be a linear movement along the radius line? Or is the difference too small to matter? Or, maybe I just need to wait for the future episodes to appear! :-D
Canada is metric in theory. Speed limits and food weights are metric but buy metal or wood and it's imperial. The bearing supply house has metric stuff but fare more in imperial. Same with the fastener supply house. I don't get it either.
If the 45mm is too rare I'll bore out a 1.75" or make one.
Thx for the reply.
Two liter coke bottle, freaking brilliant! Ok, you got to stop holding out and post the info on that baby!
I don't see where you need the extra hole. if you arrayed the lines 127 times,you've provided for all holes to be in two rows.
Hmm, making compounding gear like Doubleboosts dividing head.. wouldnt work to achieve 127 divisions?? Or a super spacer even?? I assume it wouldnt work because of the 127 indexes conundrum.