Keith: "It's like how my channel wasn't queer when I wasn't out" Respectfully disagree. Your content was at least occasionally queer, in the form of game commentary from a closeted gay perspective. Watched some of your playthroughs from pre-Legoshi, your being queer is often (at least retroactively) obvious during discussions of characters and tropes that relate to queerness. Unintentionally following the long-standing tradition in media to discuss queerness non-explicitly and subtextually.
I do occasionally think about that first question a bit, but ultimately I come to the same general conclusion. I don't think the stuff is... under-represented, per se, but that it's easier for people to feel safer with that form of expression with more things catering to those interests on the market until it becomes a niche market itself and the niche gets popularized. Which the only way to really fix is... Make the stuff you want to see, get it out there, and inspire other people to do the same. That's how the indie market works! It's a signal/noise issue. If you want the thing, boost the signal. Just don't harass the people making the stuff because they're often not really the problem. They're just doin' they thang. I also like that Keith covers what is often a smaller pool of content because it's stuff he just finds interesting with visual novels. I wouldn't ask him or expect him to play stuff he wasn't at least partially invested in, and thus I'm not surprised at the kinds of VNs he does play on the channel or the kinds of fans he tends to generate. It makes sense. There's other creators that create a better space for different kinds of people, as well.
Off the top of my head: Phillip from Repeat and (probably) TJ from Echo are demisexual, and Cyrus from Remember the Flowers is asexual. Keith has a full letsplay of Echo and letstries of the other 2
The point about Christmas revealing how little everyone knows about each other hit me hard. I’ve literally never received a gift I didn’t expressly ask for that I actually wanted/used. My family once gave me 3 chess boards and 4 rubix cubs, and 3 brain teasers just because I was “the gifted kid.”
My family (along with me and my boyfriend) always do a “Gold Frankincense and Myrrh” style of gift-giving. “Gold” is basically where we ask what each other wants 😅 I usually ask for money. “Frankincense” is where you buy something that smells nice and is practical, like deodorant. “Myrrh” is where we get something health related like lotion, herbal tea or something like that.
I think the unspoken part of "Why isn't there more representation in [blank]?" is usually "I don't want to do it myself, I want it done for me.". In a vacuum there's not really anything wrong with that, being told a story is a vastly different experience than telling one, and you're probably not going to get the same experience telling a story that you are being told one. Just, ya'know, don't try to twist peoples' arms into changing their stories just so that you get what you want. That's bad.
one of the things that becomes immediately clear about furry culture as you break into it is that it is very accessible - some of the longest running and most beloved works, while clearly having gotten an upgrade in quality over time, started out as pencil drawings by Some Kid editing on Gimp and shit like that. it's like, The People's Hobby.
Starting out with a great subject, besides the "make art for yourself" idea that I endorse* I also feel like it's a case where...people don't look around hard enough, or take enough of a risk on more unpopular visual novels/art in general. There's thousands of visual novels on itch, most of them aren't that popular, which doesn't make them bad, but I have to wonder how many gems get overlooked...which is why I have a drive full of niche, low-download, low attention VNs that I get around to once in a while. This goes for all art! I have never ran out of artists that I love what they create, but I will run out of artists that are considered popular. I could say so much about anime-style visual novels focused on gay men... But I won't. Also yeah, Christmas is painful and I love the idea of being in a group that just...decides not to give any gifts. I'm always late with my gifts (poor, so I try to make art for people) and I'm not a fan of the pressures. These holidays are so damn stressful. *I've encouraged so many friends to go on and create their own art. It's one of my favourite things to do, I often offer help with say, Python programming for Ren'py and such. I feel like there's such a wall to starting something that can be helped if well...I try my best to help, collect resources, and give info. (So I'm extra excited for the possible future Making A Visual Novel video) It can be hard to point yourself in the right direction when starting out, especially when you may not have anyone who can help. There's so much joy in making something catered to yourself. It is quite the plunge also. Be ready to sit on a hoard of unfinished projects -- which is better than not making anything at all. Afterall, you can just pick up those projects again one day. (Try to always make backups...for anyone reading this: when was the last time you made a backup of your work?)
I'd like to highlight Andrew's comment after Mr Beast's height was revealed in his battle with Super Eyepatch Wolf battle, starting at 29:26. "Well, when you have a lot of money, you can eat a lot of food, get tall." I love this. Thank you.
Re: Andrew around 1:15:30-ish... Christmas IS a religious holiday but despite the name of absolutely not a Christian holiday, at least not exclusively. It is a fascinating amalgam of so, so many varied cultural traditions, most of them pagan!
Speaking about people who actively point out or leave mistakes in their videos reminds me of this one talk show host at a radio station I work at who always feels like he has to say on air to the listeners what stuff went wrong. Like legit there was one time he was connecting live from home but his power went out. It came back on luckily before the show started. Rather than just not mentioning it because there was no way the audience would have known that happened, he instead decided to spend the entire first segment of the show talking about how his power went out and how he called someone he knew at comcast and they fixed it. Every time something is messed up instead of rolling with it he has to bring it up on air over and over and I'm like why??? What's the point???
Agree about representation, but there is also anti-representation in at least one FVN: the MC's inner monologue in Far Beyond the World states all men are at least somewhat aroused by women, i.e. gay erasure.
The intro talking about how the podcast gets more views based on what's in the title and thumbnail seems very relevant to the discussion on representation. It's not *just* about the individual creator just making what they want - the creator also has to assess response, marketing, audience (or ignore it at their peril)
Christmases for a lot of my adult life haven't gone super well but i absolutely refuse to let life wear down my holiday spirit lmao. Im gay, and not christian, and i have every reason to think Christmas is stupid, but i still love it. The lights, the decorations, the coziness, i can't see myself ever not loving it!
1:19:00 Toaster is not wrong with dunking on Christianity and religion. The modern appeal of men joining it nowadays is to hate on queers and women. ColonelRPG has good intentions by not generalizing all of them as bad, but the stuff I heard in bible study sessions will make him shift his perspective of it.
I want to see more Dominican representation in furry VNs, i'm also a little tired of seeing furry VNs with constant use of insults and curse words, it's starting to lose it's edge.
Edit: Oh god this clearly struck a chord, uh, hope someone enjoys reading this way too long comment xD Thanks for these podcasts guys, they sure trigger thoughts I do wanna push back a bit against Andrew (And Colonel)- making something is always valuable. Inherently the act of making something has value. It's important, it's good. It doesn't have to make money. It doesn't even have to be public (though community around art and creating is so wonderful I would encourage people to at least have a couple friends to share your stuff with) . It doesn't even have to appeal to anyone, not even you, and I can understand if that is offputting to someone to the point that they don't want to do it- but that is not the same as it being a waste of time. Creativity and self expression are more important than whatever the end product actually is. Even if that final product doesn't amount to much it still served such an important purpose. Art and self expression is bigger than the sum of its part, and the more you engage with it the more that effect builds. And tbh trying to make something is basically always benefitial to somebody. At the very least it's benefitial to the person making the thing, whatever the thing is. If you want to argue that not everyone can 'just make something' I would agree, but not for the reason of someone not having the skill or ability to make something 'good' right off the bat. I'd pivot way more towards people living in conditions that make it psychologically or physically incredibly challenging if not impossible to create. Being so exhausted you can't get out of bed let alone pick up a pen or an instrument for example. And if yo're THAT results driven then sure, that might also be an obstacle. But that's something you can work on and learn to deal with if you choose to. It just depends on your priorities. And if its not a priority then that's fine! But Keith's point still stands that it's pretty weird to complain that this very niche community isn't catering to your desires specifically when only you could. You just choose not to. 'If your goal isn't to be good at the thing you're making there's no reason to make the thing at all' OEHHH my guy. Oh I disagree so badly. I know there's artists that don't like the process of making something but they just can't stand not making something and like the end result- but so SO many artists like the process! For so SO many people the artistic process is a goal in and of itself! That process of making something has value! It has so much value! It teaches you things, it encourages you to experiment and learn and view things ins a new light! Yeah it's nice if the thing I end up with is something I lie, it can be discouraging if I go too long without making a painting I actually like- but what an unreasonable amount of pressure would you be putting on yourself by demanding to make something good or else whatever you just did was a waste of time??? That's missing the point of creative endeavours so much for me, or at least missing a whole dimension to creativity that is the entire point for most creatives! It feels like such a... I don't know how else to put it- capitlist? mindset towards creativity. You'd better make something of value or else. And I'm definitely not saying this is the only way to engage in creativity btut it's such a big part of any creative community. Oh man this got long
I would love to see a group or co-op playthrough of the Class of 09 visual novel with you, and andrew and or Toaster or a combination of your friends. Its so wild I'm just curious how you'd navigate it with commentary
People who constantly ask for more female representation in furry visual novels forget that mainstream media is flooded with cis women representation. (Good or bad.) As a gay guy, I read furry visual novels for the gay furry dudes. Because that's basically nonexistent in most media.
In mainstream media, sure, but I like female characters and furry media. The extreme omnipresence of buff gay dudes doesn't need to come at the cost of more than five female characters existing in roles other than background character, bland supportive cheerleader for the male characters, and psycho bitch ex and/or homophobe
@@viktorberzinsky4781 They can just make it themselves, as Keith said. Furry visual novels consist of very small teams. It's usually one person who wants to make a thing that interests them. There's no reason women can't do that.
I mean I would like more lesbian Furry VNs and lesbian VNs in general the same way gay Furry VNs are portrayed but I already know I gotta do them myself and I would never force other demographics to create them for me
I want cis and trans women in it because a lack of representation correlates with spaces being more discriminatory. They don't even have to be leads nor important characters, just have them exist and present them in a positive context. Nothing wrong with including a line about a nice mom, sister, or female friend. It's not representative of all FVN spaces, but I had run-ins cis gay male misogynists and transphobes that come from chanboards. Listening on, I agree with indies not needing to tailor to everyone.
![NATURE IS CRUEL - Let's Play Rain World [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZBV4Fz0MiE/mqdefault.jpg)
![NATURE IS CRUEL - Let's Play Rain World [Part 1]](/img/tr.png)
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The answer is always: Don't be afraid to tell the story you want to see. That-- is how stories are made. You can just do it!
Keith: "It's like how my channel wasn't queer when I wasn't out"
Respectfully disagree. Your content was at least occasionally queer, in the form of game commentary from a closeted gay perspective. Watched some of your playthroughs from pre-Legoshi, your being queer is often (at least retroactively) obvious during discussions of characters and tropes that relate to queerness. Unintentionally following the long-standing tradition in media to discuss queerness non-explicitly and subtextually.
I do occasionally think about that first question a bit, but ultimately I come to the same general conclusion. I don't think the stuff is... under-represented, per se, but that it's easier for people to feel safer with that form of expression with more things catering to those interests on the market until it becomes a niche market itself and the niche gets popularized. Which the only way to really fix is... Make the stuff you want to see, get it out there, and inspire other people to do the same. That's how the indie market works! It's a signal/noise issue. If you want the thing, boost the signal. Just don't harass the people making the stuff because they're often not really the problem. They're just doin' they thang.
I also like that Keith covers what is often a smaller pool of content because it's stuff he just finds interesting with visual novels. I wouldn't ask him or expect him to play stuff he wasn't at least partially invested in, and thus I'm not surprised at the kinds of VNs he does play on the channel or the kinds of fans he tends to generate. It makes sense. There's other creators that create a better space for different kinds of people, as well.
Pat from Chord Progressions is rare drag queen rep in a furry VN. I really wish there was more asexual or demisexual FVN rep, though.
Off the top of my head: Phillip from Repeat and (probably) TJ from Echo are demisexual, and Cyrus from Remember the Flowers is asexual. Keith has a full letsplay of Echo and letstries of the other 2
@@alirro750 Nik from The smoke room is demi too
The point about Christmas revealing how little everyone knows about each other hit me hard. I’ve literally never received a gift I didn’t expressly ask for that I actually wanted/used. My family once gave me 3 chess boards and 4 rubix cubs, and 3 brain teasers just because I was “the gifted kid.”
My family (along with me and my boyfriend) always do a “Gold Frankincense and Myrrh” style of gift-giving. “Gold” is basically where we ask what each other wants 😅 I usually ask for money. “Frankincense” is where you buy something that smells nice and is practical, like deodorant. “Myrrh” is where we get something health related like lotion, herbal tea or something like that.
Keith is correct around 1:20:08 The implication that we should begin the homogenization of culture and language did make me upset!
I think the unspoken part of "Why isn't there more representation in [blank]?" is usually "I don't want to do it myself, I want it done for me.". In a vacuum there's not really anything wrong with that, being told a story is a vastly different experience than telling one, and you're probably not going to get the same experience telling a story that you are being told one. Just, ya'know, don't try to twist peoples' arms into changing their stories just so that you get what you want. That's bad.
Interesting takes on the podcast, and gotta admit Keith was right. It’s my first time clicking on the podcast and only because of the thumbnail lol
I'm a simple man. I see a furry thumbnail, I click.
@@ptolemy2222 aren’t we all?
one of the things that becomes immediately clear about furry culture as you break into it is that it is very accessible - some of the longest running and most beloved works, while clearly having gotten an upgrade in quality over time, started out as pencil drawings by Some Kid editing on Gimp and shit like that. it's like, The People's Hobby.
Starting out with a great subject, besides the "make art for yourself" idea that I endorse* I also feel like it's a case where...people don't look around hard enough, or take enough of a risk on more unpopular visual novels/art in general. There's thousands of visual novels on itch, most of them aren't that popular, which doesn't make them bad, but I have to wonder how many gems get overlooked...which is why I have a drive full of niche, low-download, low attention VNs that I get around to once in a while. This goes for all art! I have never ran out of artists that I love what they create, but I will run out of artists that are considered popular.
I could say so much about anime-style visual novels focused on gay men... But I won't.
Also yeah, Christmas is painful and I love the idea of being in a group that just...decides not to give any gifts. I'm always late with my gifts (poor, so I try to make art for people) and I'm not a fan of the pressures. These holidays are so damn stressful.
*I've encouraged so many friends to go on and create their own art. It's one of my favourite things to do, I often offer help with say, Python programming for Ren'py and such. I feel like there's such a wall to starting something that can be helped if well...I try my best to help, collect resources, and give info. (So I'm extra excited for the possible future Making A Visual Novel video) It can be hard to point yourself in the right direction when starting out, especially when you may not have anyone who can help.
There's so much joy in making something catered to yourself. It is quite the plunge also. Be ready to sit on a hoard of unfinished projects -- which is better than not making anything at all. Afterall, you can just pick up those projects again one day. (Try to always make backups...for anyone reading this: when was the last time you made a backup of your work?)
This is some good wisdom, it's easy to feel bad about unfinished projects. It's true though. Better to make something than nothing.
Now that my friends and I are older, I just give prepaid cards as gifts. Some might argue that it's impersonal but at the same time $20 is $20
I'd like to highlight Andrew's comment after Mr Beast's height was revealed in his battle with Super Eyepatch Wolf battle, starting at 29:26. "Well, when you have a lot of money, you can eat a lot of food, get tall." I love this. Thank you.
Re: Andrew around 1:15:30-ish... Christmas IS a religious holiday but despite the name of absolutely not a Christian holiday, at least not exclusively. It is a fascinating amalgam of so, so many varied cultural traditions, most of them pagan!
Speaking about people who actively point out or leave mistakes in their videos reminds me of this one talk show host at a radio station I work at who always feels like he has to say on air to the listeners what stuff went wrong.
Like legit there was one time he was connecting live from home but his power went out. It came back on luckily before the show started. Rather than just not mentioning it because there was no way the audience would have known that happened, he instead decided to spend the entire first segment of the show talking about how his power went out and how he called someone he knew at comcast and they fixed it.
Every time something is messed up instead of rolling with it he has to bring it up on air over and over and I'm like why??? What's the point???
Agree about representation, but there is also anti-representation in at least one FVN: the MC's inner monologue in Far Beyond the World states all men are at least somewhat aroused by women, i.e. gay erasure.
The intro talking about how the podcast gets more views based on what's in the title and thumbnail seems very relevant to the discussion on representation. It's not *just* about the individual creator just making what they want - the creator also has to assess response, marketing, audience (or ignore it at their peril)
Christmases for a lot of my adult life haven't gone super well but i absolutely refuse to let life wear down my holiday spirit lmao. Im gay, and not christian, and i have every reason to think Christmas is stupid, but i still love it. The lights, the decorations, the coziness, i can't see myself ever not loving it!
1:19:00 Toaster is not wrong with dunking on Christianity and religion. The modern appeal of men joining it nowadays is to hate on queers and women. ColonelRPG has good intentions by not generalizing all of them as bad, but the stuff I heard in bible study sessions will make him shift his perspective of it.
I want to see more Dominican representation in furry VNs, i'm also a little tired of seeing furry VNs with constant use of insults and curse words, it's starting to lose it's edge.
Edit: Oh god this clearly struck a chord, uh, hope someone enjoys reading this way too long comment xD Thanks for these podcasts guys, they sure trigger thoughts
I do wanna push back a bit against Andrew (And Colonel)- making something is always valuable. Inherently the act of making something has value. It's important, it's good. It doesn't have to make money. It doesn't even have to be public (though community around art and creating is so wonderful I would encourage people to at least have a couple friends to share your stuff with) . It doesn't even have to appeal to anyone, not even you, and I can understand if that is offputting to someone to the point that they don't want to do it- but that is not the same as it being a waste of time. Creativity and self expression are more important than whatever the end product actually is. Even if that final product doesn't amount to much it still served such an important purpose. Art and self expression is bigger than the sum of its part, and the more you engage with it the more that effect builds.
And tbh trying to make something is basically always benefitial to somebody. At the very least it's benefitial to the person making the thing, whatever the thing is.
If you want to argue that not everyone can 'just make something' I would agree, but not for the reason of someone not having the skill or ability to make something 'good' right off the bat.
I'd pivot way more towards people living in conditions that make it psychologically or physically incredibly challenging if not impossible to create. Being so exhausted you can't get out of bed let alone pick up a pen or an instrument for example.
And if yo're THAT results driven then sure, that might also be an obstacle. But that's something you can work on and learn to deal with if you choose to. It just depends on your priorities. And if its not a priority then that's fine! But Keith's point still stands that it's pretty weird to complain that this very niche community isn't catering to your desires specifically when only you could. You just choose not to.
'If your goal isn't to be good at the thing you're making there's no reason to make the thing at all' OEHHH my guy. Oh I disagree so badly. I know there's artists that don't like the process of making something but they just can't stand not making something and like the end result- but so SO many artists like the process! For so SO many people the artistic process is a goal in and of itself! That process of making something has value! It has so much value! It teaches you things, it encourages you to experiment and learn and view things ins a new light! Yeah it's nice if the thing I end up with is something I lie, it can be discouraging if I go too long without making a painting I actually like- but what an unreasonable amount of pressure would you be putting on yourself by demanding to make something good or else whatever you just did was a waste of time??? That's missing the point of creative endeavours so much for me, or at least missing a whole dimension to creativity that is the entire point for most creatives!
It feels like such a... I don't know how else to put it- capitlist? mindset towards creativity. You'd better make something of value or else.
And I'm definitely not saying this is the only way to engage in creativity btut it's such a big part of any creative community. Oh man this got long
the more I hear about murrica's way of dealing with holidays and stuff the wilder of a country it sounds and looks
It's nice to know Keith is a fellow Krampus fan lol
1:39:00 my dream would be to make sandboxy games like that
I would love to see a group or co-op playthrough of the Class of 09 visual novel with you, and andrew and or Toaster or a combination of your friends. Its so wild I'm just curious how you'd navigate it with commentary
I just draw my family Christmas cards
"Brimstone" is just an archaic term for "sulfur"!
Jokes on you! I DO know noita exists! I actually have it installed on my harddrive right now!
People who constantly ask for more female representation in furry visual novels forget that mainstream media is flooded with cis women representation. (Good or bad.) As a gay guy, I read furry visual novels for the gay furry dudes. Because that's basically nonexistent in most media.
But what about women who specifically want that but furry?
In mainstream media, sure, but I like female characters and furry media. The extreme omnipresence of buff gay dudes doesn't need to come at the cost of more than five female characters existing in roles other than background character, bland supportive cheerleader for the male characters, and psycho bitch ex and/or homophobe
@@viktorberzinsky4781 They can just make it themselves, as Keith said. Furry visual novels consist of very small teams. It's usually one person who wants to make a thing that interests them. There's no reason women can't do that.
I mean I would like more lesbian Furry VNs and lesbian VNs in general the same way gay Furry VNs are portrayed but I already know I gotta do them myself and I would never force other demographics to create them for me
I want cis and trans women in it because a lack of representation correlates with spaces being more discriminatory.
They don't even have to be leads nor important characters, just have them exist and present them in a positive context. Nothing wrong with including a line about a nice mom, sister, or female friend. It's not representative of all FVN spaces, but I had run-ins cis gay male misogynists and transphobes that come from chanboards.
Listening on, I agree with indies not needing to tailor to everyone.
Grocery stores are speciffically a place for eggs lol
I like the name of this podcast ha
Weird fixation but it's true xP it's clever I think,
Honey wake up, new dialogue choices is out
Amusing and thought-provoking. Looking forward to a plague of tiny wolves in the near future
NOITA MENTIONED RAAAAAAAH!!!