@@NotFlappy12 true, though to give just a bit of credit, composite recurve bows like the one shown in the unit are specifically designed to be more punchy when compared to, say, longbows, both because of how their laminated, and the way the limbs curve away from the archer
Though composite bows were used by cavalry archers. In terms of efficiency a compound bow is inferior to a mono wood bow. However the upside of a compound bow is that you can get more power from a smaller bow with a shorter draw which is good for cavalry archers. Compound bow would fit better as an upgrade to cavalry archers.
Historically though it would have made more sense for the archer that ignores pierce armor to use a crossbow. Crossbows were very good at piercing armor and stayed in use even into the age of gunpowder for that purpose. Modern armor piercing ammunition are basically giant crossbow bolts. If it ignored pierce armor I would think it would have a very low rate of fire but a fairly high attack. It would be like a winch crossbow. A problem though is that the most prolific user of those historically were the Franks were the Arbalest.
I love the intro with the original "Composite Bowman". I'm old enough to remember playing the AOE demo on a LAN and we all ended up as Minoans with armies of Composite Bowmen backed by stone throwers (the bronze age catapult).
Fun Fact:- For an extra bit of trivia, the Armenian Composite Bowman doesn't just seem to be wielding a composite bow (which refers to the materials the bow is made of), but also a reflex bow (which refers to the shape of the bow). Despite the unit being on foot, reflex bows are most well known for being used by steppe nomad horse archers, like the infamous Mongols. In fact the Mangudai should also be a composite bowman! The advantage of both the make and shape is that you can get a lot of power from a fairly compact bow, making it ideal for use on horseback. For foot archery longbows are perfectly viable, and also much easier to make.
There are huge and long composite bows, too, like Manchu bows, so it's not just about being short and compact. Materials allow bows to be shaped in various reflexive shapes, which allow more optimal energy storage, which is why composite bows are generally at least 5, 10% more efficient than self bows. With light arrows, it's advantage is generally even greater, composite bows are faster.
It’s just a different categorization system based on shape not material although many asiatic cultures used elite composite bows so this unit name is misleading
The weather plays one of the biggest roles in which types of bow to use too. The wet of the Western European nations, particularly the British Isles would be terrible for older composite bow glues of the time - which would be easily sloughed off there. The Armenians being such an old state (that has moved like European ones/invading peoples to an extent) probably used them from when they lived near Tarsus to the Highlands they now call home.
They sound like a supplement glass cannon unit. Maybe not essentially something you want to mass as your primary/only unit, but rather something you sprinkle in the combined arms scenario.
Pretty cool unit. I really like fast creation time and armor ignoring. But they are instantly S-Tier because of their sick cape, them and Teutonic Knights have the best looks because of their capes.
I think they are a great counter to hussars and eagles. Not only because they ignore armor, but also because of the quite decent melee armor. 2+3 is quite good against the low atk of hussars.
They are more of a support unit rather than one meant to be the brunt of a force. I like it, like mixing in a few sharpshooters to take down more dangerous enemies while infantry is holding the line. Could be a decent support for champions in case they get into a fight with Paladins so you don't have to choose between Spearman or range support. Overall not a broken unit at all, just a bit finicky to fit in.
The crossbow firing in an arc while the composite bowman fires in a straight trajectory is kind of ironic, it would make more sense the other way around or at least both firing in a straight line. Having the Longbowman in effect be the only AoE2 archer unit to shoot in an arc would make them stand out even more as the long range unit they are.
Did you watch the video fully? Skirms could barely be considered their counter, if at all. Yes, you still shouldnt take fights with them, but if you're forced to, at least it's not a clean sweep that it would be with arbalests. Honestly, from looking at video, they look like the perfect noob catcher, only siege or true anti-archer UU being good counters. Though I want to see how crazy they could get in some heavy micro player's hands, like Viper
CONJECTURE: simple bow (actually called self bow) have straight forward mechanics, their energy is directly proportional to their physical size. Composite bow (which are all recurve bows) are designed in such a way that they held much more tension which then could be translated into kinetic energy. so Similarly sized self bows vs composite bow's arrow would have dramatically more kinetic energy. because of this, the adjustment required to offset drop off of an arrow at medium distance would be lesser. for arrows with less energy, archer needs to shoot in balistic trejectory, even outright indirect fire. similarly sized composite bow would have had to shoot less indirectly or in minority of cases not indirect at all. i think thats the reason.
Very curious on what's going to be said about Warrior Priests, because I only did one mission in the campaign and I absolutely love the unit. A monk that has armor, can actually attack, and can heal each other and units? Brilliant!
As a follow up to this video, my main question has always been: is the elite upgrade even worth it? Just 1 melee and 5 HP for that high cost does not seem like it is better than just making a bunch more of the composite bowmen...
Great video. Seeing this my thoughts about the Composite Bowmen is that the unit is very well balanced due to his special hability(ignore armor). They had a 100% accouracy despite lack of Thumb Ring, a tech that also increase attack speed of arrows. They dont have a long range or high base damage to compete with crossbows or beat anti-archers, and also had a little more HP and armor to help them go on range to attack. Also, as mentioned on the final of the video, the Armenians focused on infantry, who had a little more HP, where you can use them on the front while the composites are right behind striking the armored foes the oponent could use. A good combination indeed!
Regarding the flat arc of the arrow, that might be a nod to realism. I'm not an archer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that bows with a higher ratio of draw weight to arm length tend to shoot flatter. This higher ratio can be achieved through materials (a composite bow), shape (a reflexed/recurved bow), and/or through multiple leverage systems (a modern compound bow).
I was just wondering about this last night when I checked out the Armenians in the DLC. The stat differences were so minor that I figured I should just let you explain it 😂
When you patrol or attack move ranged units you should put them on stand ground. It will make them pass through the ones already fighting, instead of bumping into them, and start fighting sooner. They do bunch up so be careful against units with a splash damage.
I always liked archer civs the most and while Armenians aren't officially an archer civ, this unique unit alone makes them a contender for my favorites list. I just love both the armor ignoring attack and straight flying arrows!
longbows don't seem nearly as good anymore, nearly all Civ specific archers have more health than them. Longbowman need like 5-10hp boost I reckon or perhaps fire arrows every 1.9 instead of 2 seconds.
after playing through part of the Thoros campaign, it feels like the Composite Bowman do ignore the anti-arrow bonus that Rams. idk if they actually do but it felt that the composite take down rams quite fast compared to arbalesters
Yeah I felt that too playing the campaign, but maybe it was because I massed a good amount of them. But they definitely seemed like they were melting rams. Not mangudai level but definitely faster than a normal archer would seem. However when they ended up fighting some ships they definitely didn’t ignore armour then
Nah they do 1 damage to rams, I clicked the rams to make sure. It's just that 30 archers take down a battering ram in 6 volleys, and a capped ram in 7, so if you have enough it still feels fast
In imperial age, where the composite bowman starts to shine, many civs already have hand cannoneers which are pretty decent against infantry, high-armor units and even siege weapons, and can be trained at archery ranges. I don't see this unit being much better nor being easier to mass than hand cannoneers.
Lithuanian Leitis (cavalry) ignores enemy armour (by default) Dravidian urumi swordsman ignores armour after upgrading unique tech wootz steel. Finally Georgians have composite-bowman that ignores enemy pierce armour. Imagine these three civs are played as a team would be OP
I was just thinking abt this yesterday and spirit made a vid on it These composite bow men will be the leitis or wootz steel of teutonic kinght only this time for ghulam or HUSCARL
It's a valid question phrasing but it always makes me laugh because in the Australian vernacular, the specific 'how good is X' phrasing is generally rhetorical. Yeah, Composites -are- great! Rally round them
2:35 It would make sense from the point of physics, especially considering their 'armour piercing' property. An arrow shot at an arc first has to lose ALL the energy it was imparted with from being shot from the bow, and then gets back some potential energy once it starts to drop, which will be A LOT LESS, than if the arrow was shot straight, and even if someone were to shoot an arrow at a very steep angle, (A. it would completely destroy any accuracy due to wind being stronger the higher you go, and the arrow would be in that 'higher-wind-area' for much longer) B. There's a 'hard-limit' on the potential energy imparted on the arrow again from the 'drop' anyway, because of terminal velocity. Whereas if you shoot the arrow straight, all that power you get from the bow is directly translated to how hard the arrow is going to 'punch', it also means you can actually aim, and expect the arrow to land roughly in the place you were aiming at (which, considering the size of humans, and especially army formations, even rudimentary ones, is generally much bigger than that of shooting targets, basically guarantees a hit with even half-way competent archer, and would make things like ballistic calculations, especially on such a short distance, much less necessary) BUT, the negative will be shorter range, because that arrow is still going to eventually lose it's energy, just like the one shot at an arc, but it won't have the 'drop'. I'd say the way Composite bowman functions in the game is very well complimented by the way their arrows fly, and it's much more than just a stylistic choice, or AOE1 reference.
I know it's for gameplay, but in historical terms a composite bow piercing better than an xbow is pretty wild. No bow disregarded armor (even firearms don't *entirely* disregard it), but xbow was the best at defeating it before guns became good enough across the board to replace pretty much everything a single guy can hold in warfare.
So basically, in most cases you would want it over the generic unit, but there are still situations where you would go with arbs, even assuming you have castle castle production available. The unit is solid, but can be countered comfortably by basically any civ (they all have mangonels). That's pretty much the ideal of a unique unit. Strong, but doesn't make the generic completely obsolete (as opposed to falling into the mangudai trap, where there's basically no reason to ever use Mongol cav archers as long as you have castles available).
I feel like the unit is so strong in a vacuum that it's completely gimping Armenians as a civ. They'll have some excellent matchups but they'll never be allowed to have BBC or possibly even Siege Engineers which is just a death sentence for an infantry civ.
@@johnxina5126 they'll have a good mid game halb+monk timing, on closed maps especially, but I'd be concerned about how they can close out games in late castle onwards. They might turn out fine in the long run, I'm just not a huge fan of the unit because of how much it limits balance options around the civ and pushes them towards all in Castle Age play.
I like that the composite bowman fires in a straight line. I don't think it's a throwback to the AOE1 unit, I think it is an attempt to make an animation that better reflects reality. Real archers did not shoot in arcs unless they absolutely had to, archers need to see what they are shooting at to hit it. Medieval art overwhelming depicts archers shooting straight at their targets and not in arcs. AOE2 is so old that over its 25 years, a better understanding of how weapons were used and bows fired has become more widely known over time and has become part of AOE2's newer content.
I wouldn't trust medieval art. They didn't know about ballistics until very late, and it was thought that cannonballs, for instance fired in a straight line until they ran out of momentum, falling directly downwards.
@@Ymgarl I would trust that people from the era would know what battles looked like and how the people in them fought. There is a section from Maurice's Strategikon written in the 7th century that talks about how the Roman cavalry was equipped; he specifically states that the front ranks of mounted archers should always shoot straight, with enough space between each man for the next few ranks to shoot straight between them, and only the back ranks shoot in an arc if necessary, that they prioritize a high rate of fire over prefect accuracy, and that the best archers be deployed in the front ranks and the worst in the back ranks since, because the back ranks are shooting in an arc, they cannot see what they are shooting at anyway so their poor skill is minimized and put to maximum use.
I'm not disputing whether archers were firing more directly than depicted in aoe2, just stating that the artworks are not likely to represent accurate depictions of medieval combat.
Paired with the tanky armenian infantry units (champions or warrior priests) as meat shield, that's a very potent combination if the enemy relies on melee units.
I think composite bowmen will hard counter high pierce armour infantry units like gulam, eagles and huscarl. But against other range units I think they will suffer even in late game. Usually with arbs, you want to keep them alive and do damage from the back. But because of the lack of range, CB will die trying to close the distance against skirms/arbs. And it’s a gold unit so it really hurts to have them die.
3:18 the composite bowman shot seems to pierce through shrimvasha rider. Does it mean one single shot could trigger the dodge mechanic in against a group of shrimvasha rider due to it's straight shot mechanic? This is in contrast to literally every other unit where the shot just stops/or disappear after hitting.
Composite bows were specially made to be fired while on horseback, it was their sole purpose to be shot at Quick succession while mounting and steering a horse, it is bizarre and very strange looking at a foot Archer using a composite bow.
The composite bowman feel more akin to throwing axemen than to other archers to me. Also something cool about them is that they're good to go without the elite tech. You need bracer and chemistry (something to pick up for defenses, too) and they're good. With their innate 100% accuracy, they are a decent archer unit that are incredibly light on upgrade costs. No thumb ring, crossbow or arbalest upgrades save quite a few resources. This off-sets the 10 wood by a long shot. So you can make them as supportive units even as castle age version when you need them rather than having to commit to a tech switch into arbs.
They gonna be BUUUUUSTED, especially in large messy team game fights. x9 the potential damage output for 10 wood, and more tanky. They win vs archer counters, without meatshields. I wonder how many civs wont have any reliable cost effective counter vs massed composites.
One thing that you forgot to mention in the video is that Armenians don't get thumb ring. Generic crossbows/Arbalests with full upgrades actually trade notably better against them than is shown in the video as a result. It also offsets some of the damage difference, as unless the Composite bowmen are dealing ~18% extra damage per hit or more (Granted, micro often results in a slightly lower practical attack rate for crossbows/arbs, but lack of thumb ring is still noteworthy), their DPS is actually lower than for typical crossbow/arb civs.
You should also compare them to Hand Canoneer, Janjisary, and meele ranged units (TX, Gbeto, Chakram and Mameluke) as looks loke CompBow will have simmilar role - killing meele infantry counters. Also, high damagemof gunpowder and meele damage of others are basicly the same as pierce armor ignoring mechanic.
After first games with Armenians I would a say that Composite Bowman is quite decent unique unit. Combined with some Warriors Priests and other infantry makes a very useable army combination.
I would like for a unique unit to have a dirt cheap gunpowder unit. One that just like the Karambit takes up half a population space and costs about the same. It would have a fairly decent attack of like 12 but an extremely low rate of fire and an accuracy of like 15%. It's dps under testing conditions would be below the arbalest but it's burst damage would be absolutely devastating. That is actually how hand cannons were used historically. They were inferior to archers in pretty much every way except that archery took a lot of training and so hand cannons could be fielded in much larger numbers.
Uhm so do they ignore pierce armor on the onagers? It felt like they weren't hitting very hard. I think they're probably better against cav archers without micro too in imp. Usually thumb ring (accuracy and fire rate) and parthian tactics (+2 pierce armor) makes cav archers a soft counter to regular archers if there's no meat shields in front. I don't think you get the elite upgrade till you're pop capped.
Giving an armor ignoring Archer unique unit to a non-archer specialised civ was a really smart moves by the devs, I feel like. It helps balance an otherwise pretty overpowered ability that would quickly be broken if, say, Ethiopians with full archer techs plus their civ bonus of faster attack speed had them, for example.
a civ bonus would not affect a unique unit. the unit's base values would be lowered in a way that the result is the value it was designed to have. civ bonuses only change generic units. that said armenians have full upgrades.
@@BayWa4eva Both your statements are wrong. To make it short here are examples for both: Longbowmen from Britons get bonus range from their civ bonus and Armenians don't get Thumb Ring.
@@JJBeauregard1 the elite longbowman is designed to have more range than arbs and generic castles, but it simply grows with the arbs. that is meant to make it not op straight out of the castle. without yeomen and the briton bonus range, base longbowman would probably have 7 range and elite 9 to make up for it. that is a big buff however. same for composite bowmen: yes armenians lack thumb ring, but as you may have noticed, the bowmen have 100% accuracy anyways, so thumb ring is already baked into the unit. technically unique units are affected by civilization bonuses. practically they aren't. they would get the same numbers without civ bonus.
@@BayWa4eva I get your logic but I still think it's a weird way to look at it. For example you're saying Composite Bowman would have an even slower rate of fire of the general base 2.0 for most archer units if they had access to Thumb Ring or that Elite-Longbowmen would have a base range of 8 if their civ bonus wouldn't apply (or 9 if you count the tech as well) to still get to the final 12 range. I think it's a flawed way to look at it because you're still ultimately saying that certain units aren't affected by certain bonuses when they are.
@@JJBeauregard1 what happens internally only matters in very specific scenarios (for example a mod that multiplies bonuses). it doesn't matter for balancing which you meant. actually a unique unit gets better the less updates it has because it is faster and cheaper to max out and the final result is the same. that is especially visible for gunpowder UUs.
So in theory, we're only making these things against heavy cavalry, or high pierce armor infantry like the huskarl, and should otherwise focus on infantry, monks, and siege?
I am still confused as to how this unit will fit into the overall Armenian civ design, since this is clearly not meant to be a heavy hitter against archers or gunpowder (which are traditional counters against heavy infantry play); but are actually meant to tackle eagles and cav. But the Armenians already do this pretty well with their own champs and halbs (albeit they have no discount or bonuses other than getting them early). Very curious to see how this civ will be played, and I have a feeling this civ's identity will soon get changed drastically.
pssst... just before any patches will come i will tell some secret.... the composite bowman + mangonel combo is totally broken - bowman will eat any knights and light cav that will try to snipe onager and onager will kill any skirmishers and scorpions which as it turns out are especially effective against bowman.
This is pretty much a paladin vs leitis situation all over again. Wich on one to pick and when, the generic unit or the armor ignoring unique ? I can see low pierce armor factions making the composite bowmen not worth the hassle, but then what would be their answer to good ol' regular crossbows ( espescially if they have mediocre siege) ?
I wonder how the Byzantine v. Armenians matchup would play out, you have halbs and champs earlier than any other civ against the hardest infantry counter around.
The straight arrow flight helps reinforce the "short powerful punch" idea behind the unit
Yes! I actually thought that's the idea behind it rather than the callback to AOE1, though I guess there's no reason it can't be both
It's quite strange though, considering that that's what a crossbow is for in real life
It does look cooler
@@NotFlappy12 true, though to give just a bit of credit, composite recurve bows like the one shown in the unit are specifically designed to be more punchy when compared to, say, longbows, both because of how their laminated, and the way the limbs curve away from the archer
@@NestorKYATNone of them are punching through plate armor though.
Now that we have composite bowmen can't wait for their new unique counter, the prime bowmen
Their counter is the turkmen they got wreckt by them all their history
Prime Skirmishers
I'm not sure how prime bowmen would be a counter, but maybe I'm failing to see how to factor them in
Though composite bows were used by cavalry archers. In terms of efficiency a compound bow is inferior to a mono wood bow. However the upside of a compound bow is that you can get more power from a smaller bow with a shorter draw which is good for cavalry archers. Compound bow would fit better as an upgrade to cavalry archers.
@@Mepho5175 they did pretty well in the first Nagorno-Karabakh war. Nowadays not so much
the composite bowman is already the coolest archer because of the cape!
This guy knows what's important
Historically though it would have made more sense for the archer that ignores pierce armor to use a crossbow. Crossbows were very good at piercing armor and stayed in use even into the age of gunpowder for that purpose.
Modern armor piercing ammunition are basically giant crossbow bolts.
If it ignored pierce armor I would think it would have a very low rate of fire but a fairly high attack. It would be like a winch crossbow. A problem though is that the most prolific user of those historically were the Franks were the Arbalest.
Yes! Looks like something out of a Middle Earth mod.
We all know wearing a cape makes you stronger.
@@MrMarinus18 120mm crossbow bolts are indeed badass
I love the intro with the original "Composite Bowman". I'm old enough to remember playing the AOE demo on a LAN and we all ended up as Minoans with armies of Composite Bowmen backed by stone throwers (the bronze age catapult).
Minoans Composite Bowmen is nightmare in the Bronze Age
Fun Fact:- For an extra bit of trivia, the Armenian Composite Bowman doesn't just seem to be wielding a composite bow (which refers to the materials the bow is made of), but also a reflex bow (which refers to the shape of the bow). Despite the unit being on foot, reflex bows are most well known for being used by steppe nomad horse archers, like the infamous Mongols. In fact the Mangudai should also be a composite bowman! The advantage of both the make and shape is that you can get a lot of power from a fairly compact bow, making it ideal for use on horseback. For foot archery longbows are perfectly viable, and also much easier to make.
There are huge and long composite bows, too, like Manchu bows, so it's not just about being short and compact.
Materials allow bows to be shaped in various reflexive shapes, which allow more optimal energy storage, which is why composite bows are generally at least 5, 10% more efficient than self bows. With light arrows, it's advantage is generally even greater, composite bows are faster.
New head cannon: Mangudai has bonus vs siege is due to the composite bow they have
It’s just a different categorization system based on shape not material although many asiatic cultures used elite composite bows so this unit name is misleading
The weather plays one of the biggest roles in which types of bow to use too. The wet of the Western European nations, particularly the British Isles would be terrible for older composite bow glues of the time - which would be easily sloughed off there. The Armenians being such an old state (that has moved like European ones/invading peoples to an extent) probably used them from when they lived near Tarsus to the Highlands they now call home.
How do you know it is a reflex bow and not a recurve bow that they use?
For one of your vids, you need to do a style comparison between all the caped units. as they are the coolest
Didn't even think about the flat arrow being a potential advantage!
Your voice is so smooth I think you should start a new series "Spirit of The Raw" on a different platform!
😳
Great video, but did you have any consideration to the lack of tumb ring in the dps comparisons?
They sound like a supplement glass cannon unit. Maybe not essentially something you want to mass as your primary/only unit, but rather something you sprinkle in the combined arms scenario.
How often do people sprinkle in combined forces even at high levels mass or loose lmao
Pretty cool unit. I really like fast creation time and armor ignoring. But they are instantly S-Tier because of their sick cape, them and Teutonic Knights have the best looks because of their capes.
Berserk entered the chat 😤😜
@bassegoder Woops 😋 But Teutonic Knights are more iconic so they are the poster child for capey boys in Aoe2.
@@inductivegrunt94nah
Red haired and rounded super cool shield mammaaaa
@@bassegoder Yeah, no, Berserks are overrated with how they look compared to the sleek yet stylish Teutonic Chads.
I think they are a great counter to hussars and eagles. Not only because they ignore armor, but also because of the quite decent melee armor. 2+3 is quite good against the low atk of hussars.
They are more of a support unit rather than one meant to be the brunt of a force. I like it, like mixing in a few sharpshooters to take down more dangerous enemies while infantry is holding the line. Could be a decent support for champions in case they get into a fight with Paladins so you don't have to choose between Spearman or range support. Overall not a broken unit at all, just a bit finicky to fit in.
Ranged halberdiers lol
I just love that the arrow goes in a straight line like the aoe1 archer. So nostalgic.
The crossbow firing in an arc while the composite bowman fires in a straight trajectory is kind of ironic, it would make more sense the other way around or at least both firing in a straight line. Having the Longbowman in effect be the only AoE2 archer unit to shoot in an arc would make them stand out even more as the long range unit they are.
Can you make a video comparing Composite Bowman with Chu-Ku-Nu. I feel like they are a bit similar, high damage dealer but have short range.
@@booradley6832 Can you give the link?
These archers are amazing they can melt though any tough unit but the downside is that they're glass canons and die extremely easily to archers/skirms
Did you watch the video fully? Skirms could barely be considered their counter, if at all. Yes, you still shouldnt take fights with them, but if you're forced to, at least it's not a clean sweep that it would be with arbalests. Honestly, from looking at video, they look like the perfect noob catcher, only siege or true anti-archer UU being good counters. Though I want to see how crazy they could get in some heavy micro player's hands, like Viper
@@LtLukoziuzskirms stull heavily counter them through cost, they could get slight buff honestly
@@stefanandrejcik571Omg archer unit has a counter, buff it! buff every other archer along the way!
@@awagnow ok
CONJECTURE: simple bow (actually called self bow) have straight forward mechanics, their energy is directly proportional to their physical size. Composite bow (which are all recurve bows) are designed in such a way that they held much more tension which then could be translated into kinetic energy. so Similarly sized self bows vs composite bow's arrow would have dramatically more kinetic energy. because of this, the adjustment required to offset drop off of an arrow at medium distance would be lesser. for arrows with less energy, archer needs to shoot in balistic trejectory, even outright indirect fire. similarly sized composite bow would have had to shoot less indirectly or in minority of cases not indirect at all. i think thats the reason.
Very curious on what's going to be said about Warrior Priests, because I only did one mission in the campaign and I absolutely love the unit. A monk that has armor, can actually attack, and can heal each other and units? Brilliant!
As a follow up to this video, my main question has always been: is the elite upgrade even worth it? Just 1 melee and 5 HP for that high cost does not seem like it is better than just making a bunch more of the composite bowmen...
It's like 10 units
Nice
A new video on CBT (Composite Bowman Tactics)
The straight firing arrow is definitely an AoE1 reference, the bow's shooting sound is also similar to the AoE1 bow sound rather than the AoE2 sound.
Ah, yes, the composite bowman, the anti anti archer unit archer unit
Great video as always SotL. You never disappoint!
Great video. Seeing this my thoughts about the Composite Bowmen is that the unit is very well balanced due to his special hability(ignore armor). They had a 100% accouracy despite lack of Thumb Ring, a tech that also increase attack speed of arrows. They dont have a long range or high base damage to compete with crossbows or beat anti-archers, and also had a little more HP and armor to help them go on range to attack.
Also, as mentioned on the final of the video, the Armenians focused on infantry, who had a little more HP, where you can use them on the front while the composites are right behind striking the armored foes the oponent could use. A good combination indeed!
As long as enemies don't have SO and scorps. Then is insta gg
Regarding the flat arc of the arrow, that might be a nod to realism. I'm not an archer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that bows with a higher ratio of draw weight to arm length tend to shoot flatter. This higher ratio can be achieved through materials (a composite bow), shape (a reflexed/recurved bow), and/or through multiple leverage systems (a modern compound bow).
I was just wondering about this last night when I checked out the Armenians in the DLC. The stat differences were so minor that I figured I should just let you explain it 😂
When you patrol or attack move ranged units you should put them on stand ground. It will make them pass through the ones already fighting, instead of bumping into them, and start fighting sooner. They do bunch up so be careful against units with a splash damage.
maybe in tests but it's risky to use hold in real games. Better to move the units up so backline is in range
A very nice looking post imp unit for sure, just gotta have the counter to siege and you're set.
Like what? Armenians have bad cavalry, no Bombard Cannons, no siege engineers, and no anti-siege specialists like Eagle Warriors.
@@Salnaxthier hussars are perfectly serviceable.
@@9051team They have none.
I always liked archer civs the most and while Armenians aren't officially an archer civ, this unique unit alone makes them a contender for my favorites list. I just love both the armor ignoring attack and straight flying arrows!
“It’s (armor piercing) officially in the game now though”
*Sad forgotten Leitis noises*
composite bow is a weird choice for a unique unit name, i mean most cavalry archer especially from the nomadic ones are always using composite bow
FOr real, composite bows were common.
Cant wait to see your breakdown of the Warrior Priest
I cant believe you didnt mention how cool they look.
Spirit of the Law content hecc YEAH
Composite bowmen should have the longest range of any archer, for historical accuracy’s sake.
longbows don't seem nearly as good anymore, nearly all Civ specific archers have more health than them. Longbowman need like 5-10hp boost I reckon or perhaps fire arrows every 1.9 instead of 2 seconds.
Yeah, I think the actual vendetta of the devs is not against the chinese... it is against britons!
And prolly Aztecs
Yeeh longbows need a buff for sure
Briton players are just nostalgia driven at this point and don't want to move on to better archer civs
@@awagnow Civs need to be balanced not redundant
We, need this man. So badly. Thank you spirit for teaching the AOE community so much
after playing through part of the Thoros campaign, it feels like the Composite Bowman do ignore the anti-arrow bonus that Rams. idk if they actually do but it felt that the composite take down rams quite fast compared to arbalesters
Yeah I felt that too playing the campaign, but maybe it was because I massed a good amount of them. But they definitely seemed like they were melting rams. Not mangudai level but definitely faster than a normal archer would seem. However when they ended up fighting some ships they definitely didn’t ignore armour then
Nah they do 1 damage to rams, I clicked the rams to make sure. It's just that 30 archers take down a battering ram in 6 volleys, and a capped ram in 7, so if you have enough it still feels fast
10:41 I get flashbacks of your intro. I even hear it in mine head
Meanwhile i remember a time when max armies of Elite Skirms was the perfect snowball in older versions of AoE2
2 min fresh upload let’s go
In imperial age, where the composite bowman starts to shine, many civs already have hand cannoneers which are pretty decent against infantry, high-armor units and even siege weapons, and can be trained at archery ranges. I don't see this unit being much better nor being easier to mass than hand cannoneers.
So all other composite bowmen are not elite eh? from famous composite bowmen cultures like Mongol, Turks, Persians, Chinese, Koreans, Indians, etc
Shut up please ;)
AAH YES. The power creep. Gotta love those.
If i was to suggest such a unit in a forum, i'd be called dumb.
Lithuanian Leitis (cavalry) ignores enemy armour (by default)
Dravidian urumi swordsman ignores armour after upgrading unique tech wootz steel.
Finally Georgians have composite-bowman that ignores enemy pierce armour.
Imagine these three civs are played as a team would be OP
I was just thinking abt this yesterday and spirit made a vid on it
These composite bow men will be the leitis or wootz steel of teutonic kinght only this time for ghulam or HUSCARL
It's a valid question phrasing but it always makes me laugh because in the Australian vernacular, the specific 'how good is X' phrasing is generally rhetorical. Yeah, Composites -are- great! Rally round them
I wish developers understand the concept of composite bow. Which clearly they did not.
I NEED to have a Teutons + Armenians team now. CAPEY BOIS UNITE
They actually do in the Thoros campaign.
Now we can use this new unit in the scenario editor instead of longbowmen to represent the rangers of Ithilien
I stopped playing AOE2 like 2 decades ago but I always maintain my curiosity for the game. Can't explain why.
I know it's for balance issues but let's sink in the fact that a guy trowing a jabellin with his arms has more reach than a bowman.
2:35 It would make sense from the point of physics, especially considering their 'armour piercing' property. An arrow shot at an arc first has to lose ALL the energy it was imparted with from being shot from the bow, and then gets back some potential energy once it starts to drop, which will be A LOT LESS, than if the arrow was shot straight, and even if someone were to shoot an arrow at a very steep angle, (A. it would completely destroy any accuracy due to wind being stronger the higher you go, and the arrow would be in that 'higher-wind-area' for much longer) B. There's a 'hard-limit' on the potential energy imparted on the arrow again from the 'drop' anyway, because of terminal velocity.
Whereas if you shoot the arrow straight, all that power you get from the bow is directly translated to how hard the arrow is going to 'punch', it also means you can actually aim, and expect the arrow to land roughly in the place you were aiming at (which, considering the size of humans, and especially army formations, even rudimentary ones, is generally much bigger than that of shooting targets, basically guarantees a hit with even half-way competent archer, and would make things like ballistic calculations, especially on such a short distance, much less necessary)
BUT, the negative will be shorter range, because that arrow is still going to eventually lose it's energy, just like the one shot at an arc, but it won't have the 'drop'.
I'd say the way Composite bowman functions in the game is very well complimented by the way their arrows fly, and it's much more than just a stylistic choice, or AOE1 reference.
If you garison the bowman in a tower, does it shoot additional arrows? And if so, do those arrows have the armor piercing effect?
Ys and no, unit abilities never transfer to building attacks.
The fact that he has a cool cape alone is already enough reason to make them instead of regular ass crossbows.
I know it's for gameplay, but in historical terms a composite bow piercing better than an xbow is pretty wild. No bow disregarded armor (even firearms don't *entirely* disregard it), but xbow was the best at defeating it before guns became good enough across the board to replace pretty much everything a single guy can hold in warfare.
So basically, in most cases you would want it over the generic unit, but there are still situations where you would go with arbs, even assuming you have castle castle production available. The unit is solid, but can be countered comfortably by basically any civ (they all have mangonels). That's pretty much the ideal of a unique unit. Strong, but doesn't make the generic completely obsolete (as opposed to falling into the mangudai trap, where there's basically no reason to ever use Mongol cav archers as long as you have castles available).
So much potential for a LotR campaign
Elven archers or Ithilian rangers
"That is no orc horn".
Also warrior monk is the best friar tuck for sure 🎯
I feel like the unit is so strong in a vacuum that it's completely gimping Armenians as a civ.
They'll have some excellent matchups but they'll never be allowed to have BBC or possibly even Siege Engineers which is just a death sentence for an infantry civ.
But they do have strong monks. Just like aztecs who are a Monk-infantry civ
@@johnxina5126 they'll have a good mid game halb+monk timing, on closed maps especially, but I'd be concerned about how they can close out games in late castle onwards.
They might turn out fine in the long run, I'm just not a huge fan of the unit because of how much it limits balance options around the civ and pushes them towards all in Castle Age play.
Composite bowman is such a badass unit with the 100% accuracy without thumb ring, true skill there
The Composite Bowmans' one melee armor in castle age allows it to survive a mangonel shot head on.
I like that the composite bowman fires in a straight line. I don't think it's a throwback to the AOE1 unit, I think it is an attempt to make an animation that better reflects reality. Real archers did not shoot in arcs unless they absolutely had to, archers need to see what they are shooting at to hit it. Medieval art overwhelming depicts archers shooting straight at their targets and not in arcs. AOE2 is so old that over its 25 years, a better understanding of how weapons were used and bows fired has become more widely known over time and has become part of AOE2's newer content.
long bowman would arc fire sometimes, but crossbows and composite reflex bows are usually fired directly at the target
I wouldn't trust medieval art. They didn't know about ballistics until very late, and it was thought that cannonballs, for instance fired in a straight line until they ran out of momentum, falling directly downwards.
@@Ymgarl I really doubt that. You don't need to know about gravity to get a good feel for it and they weren't strangers to flying objects
@@Ymgarl I would trust that people from the era would know what battles looked like and how the people in them fought. There is a section from Maurice's Strategikon written in the 7th century that talks about how the Roman cavalry was equipped; he specifically states that the front ranks of mounted archers should always shoot straight, with enough space between each man for the next few ranks to shoot straight between them, and only the back ranks shoot in an arc if necessary, that they prioritize a high rate of fire over prefect accuracy, and that the best archers be deployed in the front ranks and the worst in the back ranks since, because the back ranks are shooting in an arc, they cannot see what they are shooting at anyway so their poor skill is minimized and put to maximum use.
I'm not disputing whether archers were firing more directly than depicted in aoe2, just stating that the artworks are not likely to represent accurate depictions of medieval combat.
Paired with the tanky armenian infantry units (champions or warrior priests) as meat shield, that's a very potent combination if the enemy relies on melee units.
I think composite bowmen will hard counter high pierce armour infantry units like gulam, eagles and huscarl. But against other range units I think they will suffer even in late game. Usually with arbs, you want to keep them alive and do damage from the back. But because of the lack of range, CB will die trying to close the distance against skirms/arbs. And it’s a gold unit so it really hurts to have them die.
They're also slow and worse for raiding due to range
What about against chembows with hussite wagons in between?
3:18 the composite bowman shot seems to pierce through shrimvasha rider. Does it mean one single shot could trigger the dodge mechanic in against a group of shrimvasha rider due to it's straight shot mechanic? This is in contrast to literally every other unit where the shot just stops/or disappear after hitting.
Composite bows were specially made to be fired while on horseback, it was their sole purpose to be shot at Quick succession while mounting and steering a horse, it is bizarre and very strange looking at a foot Archer using a composite bow.
The composite bowman feel more akin to throwing axemen than to other archers to me. Also something cool about them is that they're good to go without the elite tech. You need bracer and chemistry (something to pick up for defenses, too) and they're good. With their innate 100% accuracy, they are a decent archer unit that are incredibly light on upgrade costs. No thumb ring, crossbow or arbalest upgrades save quite a few resources. This off-sets the 10 wood by a long shot.
So you can make them as supportive units even as castle age version when you need them rather than having to commit to a tech switch into arbs.
They gonna be BUUUUUSTED, especially in large messy team game fights. x9 the potential damage output for 10 wood, and more tanky. They win vs archer counters, without meatshields. I wonder how many civs wont have any reliable cost effective counter vs massed composites.
After some games i feel they are kinda niche as you say i often go for their inf instead . Tho its nice to have a good knight counter.
Next, a comparison of Genoese Crossbow and Composite bowman against all types cavarly
One thing that you forgot to mention in the video is that Armenians don't get thumb ring. Generic crossbows/Arbalests with full upgrades actually trade notably better against them than is shown in the video as a result. It also offsets some of the damage difference, as unless the Composite bowmen are dealing ~18% extra damage per hit or more (Granted, micro often results in a slightly lower practical attack rate for crossbows/arbs, but lack of thumb ring is still noteworthy), their DPS is actually lower than for typical crossbow/arb civs.
You should also compare them to Hand Canoneer, Janjisary, and meele ranged units (TX, Gbeto, Chakram and Mameluke) as looks loke CompBow will have simmilar role - killing meele infantry counters. Also, high damagemof gunpowder and meele damage of others are basicly the same as pierce armor ignoring mechanic.
poor Composite Bowman, shooting at the same Legionaire from the Iron Age to the Imperial Age :D
The fact that skirmishers, chucking a massive javelin, outrange composite bowmen is some crazy AoE logic. Those skirms must be on steroids.
please a video about the new percians 🙏
After first games with Armenians I would a say that Composite Bowman is quite decent unique unit. Combined with some Warriors Priests and other infantry makes a very useable army combination.
I would like for a unique unit to have a dirt cheap gunpowder unit. One that just like the Karambit takes up half a population space and costs about the same. It would have a fairly decent attack of like 12 but an extremely low rate of fire and an accuracy of like 15%. It's dps under testing conditions would be below the arbalest but it's burst damage would be absolutely devastating.
That is actually how hand cannons were used historically. They were inferior to archers in pretty much every way except that archery took a lot of training and so hand cannons could be fielded in much larger numbers.
A cool idea but I really don't think we need a other infantry counter, even after the buff
Uhm so do they ignore pierce armor on the onagers? It felt like they weren't hitting very hard. I think they're probably better against cav archers without micro too in imp. Usually thumb ring (accuracy and fire rate) and parthian tactics (+2 pierce armor) makes cav archers a soft counter to regular archers if there's no meat shields in front. I don't think you get the elite upgrade till you're pop capped.
Can the straight arrow be blocked by terrain, if there is a hill between the composite bowman and his target ?
Giving an armor ignoring Archer unique unit to a non-archer specialised civ was a really smart moves by the devs, I feel like. It helps balance an otherwise pretty overpowered ability that would quickly be broken if, say, Ethiopians with full archer techs plus their civ bonus of faster attack speed had them, for example.
a civ bonus would not affect a unique unit. the unit's base values would be lowered in a way that the result is the value it was designed to have. civ bonuses only change generic units.
that said armenians have full upgrades.
@@BayWa4eva Both your statements are wrong. To make it short here are examples for both: Longbowmen from Britons get bonus range from their civ bonus and Armenians don't get Thumb Ring.
@@JJBeauregard1 the elite longbowman is designed to have more range than arbs and generic castles, but it simply grows with the arbs. that is meant to make it not op straight out of the castle. without yeomen and the briton bonus range, base longbowman would probably have 7 range and elite 9 to make up for it. that is a big buff however.
same for composite bowmen: yes armenians lack thumb ring, but as you may have noticed, the bowmen have 100% accuracy anyways, so thumb ring is already baked into the unit.
technically unique units are affected by civilization bonuses. practically they aren't. they would get the same numbers without civ bonus.
@@BayWa4eva I get your logic but I still think it's a weird way to look at it.
For example you're saying Composite Bowman would have an even slower rate of fire of the general base 2.0 for most archer units if they had access to Thumb Ring or that Elite-Longbowmen would have a base range of 8 if their civ bonus wouldn't apply (or 9 if you count the tech as well) to still get to the final 12 range.
I think it's a flawed way to look at it because you're still ultimately saying that certain units aren't affected by certain bonuses when they are.
@@JJBeauregard1 what happens internally only matters in very specific scenarios (for example a mod that multiplies bonuses). it doesn't matter for balancing which you meant. actually a unique unit gets better the less updates it has because it is faster and cheaper to max out and the final result is the same. that is especially visible for gunpowder UUs.
So in theory, we're only making these things against heavy cavalry, or high pierce armor infantry like the huskarl, and should otherwise focus on infantry, monks, and siege?
I am still confused as to how this unit will fit into the overall Armenian civ design, since this is clearly not meant to be a heavy hitter against archers or gunpowder (which are traditional counters against heavy infantry play); but are actually meant to tackle eagles and cav. But the Armenians already do this pretty well with their own champs and halbs (albeit they have no discount or bonuses other than getting them early). Very curious to see how this civ will be played, and I have a feeling this civ's identity will soon get changed drastically.
I miss the historical/realism part of the unit reviews. Honestly, some of the new units the DLCs are adding are baffling.
So if the Rattan Archer is the Anti Archer Archer, the Composite Bowman is the Anti Anti Archer Archer
I just wonder that how can then now goths do some thing vs Armenians or composite bowmen coz they are left with no counter units ranged units
Composite bow : pierce any armour
Crossbows, arbalests, scorpions, hand cannons... : "am I a joke to you ?"
pssst... just before any patches will come i will tell some secret....
the composite bowman + mangonel combo is totally broken - bowman will eat any knights and light cav that will try to snipe onager and onager will kill any skirmishers and scorpions which as it turns out are especially effective against bowman.
CUE THE ONTAGE!!
This is pretty much a paladin vs leitis situation all over again. Wich on one to pick and when, the generic unit or the armor ignoring unique ? I can see low pierce armor factions making the composite bowmen not worth the hassle, but then what would be their answer to good ol' regular crossbows ( espescially if they have mediocre siege) ?
Ignoring armour should be the way gunpowder units function
But remove the +10 vs infantry then
I wonder how the Byzantine v. Armenians matchup would play out, you have halbs and champs earlier than any other civ against the hardest infantry counter around.
Great stuff
Can we get a head to head, composite bowman vs genoese xbows against knights and paladins?
I wonder, if they fire in straight line, does the projectile get blocked by buildings?
In terms of the rule of cool, the composite bowmen are unstoppable. Their design is so nice.
So you could go full archers , using elite version as a meatshild + pierce killer
Can you compare them to throwing axemen?
I forgot they ignored armor while playing as the Goths and went full Huskral.... Boy howdy did I get WRECKED