"Religion Makes Society Better"...Until We Start Listing Facts | Forrest Valkai & Gordon Walker
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Caller Andrew contends that theism is more credible than atheism because religious people tend to have higher fertility rates. He argues this makes theism more evolutionarily successful. The hosts push back, noting that fertility rates don't correlate with the truthfulness of religious claims. They discuss how religiosity does not necessarily lead to societal progress or respect for human rights, highlighting examples of secular societies doing better on various metrics. Though some contentious moments, the discussion remains civil as hosts urge Andrew to reconsider his views based on the counterevidence presented.
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"Religion Makes Society Better" - except it's the number one thing that has held us back of all time
And is some cases regressed us.
Case and point to both is
the dark ages.
Christianity having a stranglehold
on science
No, it has not. Religion has, indeed, made society better. What's holding us back is CAPITALISM.
@@TheMilitantMazdakite Religion first, Capitalism later.
Capitalism helped briefly, but when it first came in, and now, it's definitely hobbling society, but to ignore the good that it's done, and the evil that religions have done, are doing and will do, is ignorant or incredibly biased.
Edited for one typo.
@@TheMilitantMazdakitelol
Rabbits have more offspring than humans, therefore god is a rabbit.
😂
But, frogs have more offspring than rabbits, therefore God is a frog.
@@RandyWanat But fungi produce more offspring, threfore god is a megamycete.
Bacteria babies
Sanctum Peter Cotium
Deus en re unium
Hippitus hoppitus Deus Domine
In suus via torreum
Lepis en re sanctum
Hippitus hoppitus Dues Domine
I went to a fairly progressive Catholic School for 12 years. To say that religion is not forced upon students is absurd and just one more example of the brazen dishonesty that marks the very essence of Christianity.
Or buying into propaganda
Should all of Christianity be blamed for what Catholics you allege "forced" upon you? Should all religions be excoriated for what 1 religion is _alleged_ to have caused?
@@michaelmoore7975yes, all religions should be blamed because one bad experience, us athiests just HATE religion full stop. We always use double standards to judge religion
For example, us atheists know that alcohol is bad, harms society, harms individuals, and there is SUFFICIENT scientific evidence to back those 2 claims, us atheists will never say to Ban alcohol, but religion on the other hand, we will 🤷🏾♂️
Also, us atheists like to cry about religion indoctrinating young minds but 7s Atheists will not say the same about liberalism that tries to indoctrinate young minds with their LGBTQIA2S trash🤷🏾♂️
Us atheists will say that religion holds us back and restricts.our freedom because we cant be gay but us atheists on the same hand will restruct incestual couples and still claim freedom for all🤷🏾♂️
We are atheists, we are inconsistent liars, we just HATE religion full stop
@@michaelmoore7975 Yes, because the rest did the same shit.
@@HankThrillPlays That last comment is a lie based on a belief without facts to support it. Typical.
Now, what was it you said about brazen dishonesty?
I went to school when we were forced to say the lords prayer. I watched some children allowed to leave and I asked to go with them. Immediately sent to the principals office. After some illegal talk with me I still said that I wanted to leave with the others. My Mom was called into the school and after the principal put on what he thought was a great speech about about how great religion is my Mom looked at him and said “if my son wants to leave he leaves.” The principal was floored and stuttered for several minutes before he relented. This all happened in a public school. I can’t thank my Mom enough for not being religious.
I went to public school in the '80s in a suburban Canadian town, where bible reading and/or lord's prayer was a common and "normal" practise at the start of class or at assemblies. Often one might see a couple kids step out (JW's most likely) and I feel bad NOW because at the time I/we thought THEY were the 'weird ones'.
Tho if Current Me was Back Then Me, I'd have been right out there with them. Outside the room, asking if the Jehovah's Witness (Protection Program, ha ha) still had the 144,000 person "level cap" on admission to heaven.
Current Me is a different kind of wiseacre than Back Then Me was.
Wow your mom is awesome. But yes, they want THEIR religion in schools but they don’t want to give others the same status; nor should they. No religion should receive preferential treatment in secular/public settings.
Religion is wholly evil and anti-freedom. It's been nothing but an albatross around the neck of humanity.
@@MacLaw3084 Religion was strong in the immigrant town (Eastern European/German) where I started going to school in the 1970s, but can't recall any religion at school itself. That was at Sunday School, which you basically 'had' to attend or else folks would start gossiping and speculating that your parents weren't good people. So glad, and fortunate, we moved far away to Southern California where we enjoyed a childhood free from religious superstition and related nonsense.
it was the same in mine. but no one ever left and I just assumed it was a thing everyone did.
like singing the national anthem. which we did I think everyday? maybe less... not sure.
Andrew responded to multiple questions with "wow." He clearly has never given any of this any serious thought or looked into any of the facts surrounding it. It's all about what FEELS true, not what IS true.
Give Andy a break! He hasn’t reached the age of reason yet. Poor fucker.
You could ask Andrew if he wants to live in Afghanistan. A very, very religious country.
Andrew always calls in with the most bone headed things to say, gets his arguments destroyed, and then calls in again to make the exact same arguments. He can't/won't learn.
This is the Andrew that says he’d do anything the pope says even if he knows it’s wrong or immoral
Not to mention for at least the first twenty minutes he didn’t answer a single question directly or honestly. He completely evaded them to try and move on to a different talking point or try and somehow validate what he already said. I think the entire call he only directly answered like two or three questions.
The ONLY reason any religion becomes "progressive" is through secular reasoning
Catholicism/Christianity has always been behind the times and slow to admit error or injustice .
And abandoning some of itself
@@candido7491 Behind the times, like murdering innocent, helpless babies in the womb. No thanks.
And DATA. We have a ton of factors that can be measured to decide whether a society benefits from more religiosity vs secularity. Im so glad Forrest dropped some facts on Andrew. The more I listen to these callers, the more I realize they have no concept of the world outside the US.
they start becoming progressive when the donations start drying up....
Zero chance Andrew integrates this conversation into his beliefs.
You could tell he'd never been challenged. The long gaps and pauses after presented with an easy yet terrifying question, was telling. Religions will show you their true colors when you attempt to leave the compound. You stand to lose 'friends' and family as a result, and that's often enough to keep people inside the fence - only then you'll notice the barbed wire at the top is pointed IN, not out.
Isn't this the guy who calls into every show every day with the most bonkers claims, trying to justify being trapped in an awful marriage because of Catholicism?
@@jeffbeck8993 God gave you the free will to leave at any time. Why do you blame others because you didn't have the courage to leave
@@MrMarco855 I fuckjing hate this sentence!! As if there where no such things as mental trauma, abuse and fear and the simple fact to be born into the wrong place..... what you are saying is, that all the womens who are staying with wife beaters are just cowrds...its not like they fear thier life, when they break up. Na just cowerds who doesnt deserve better, cause its thier choice to be born into abusiv relationships, fucked up socities, poverty, no support, families with 0 knowlede, no chance of education and a fucked up belive system....
Man, I went to Catholic school. The only reason we were “ahead” of public school was due to the fact that there were waaaaay less of us to teach, and we were better funded (due to being an “elite” academy, tuition was high, and lots of wealthy families sent their sons to the school I went to). It had nothing to do with religion. All to do with funding and student to teacher ratio.
The most important thing was probably selection bias. Public schools basically have to educate everyone, private schools can reject and kick out problem or needy kids. They kind of automatically do just by costing more
I seriously doubt most people who go to the fancy Catholic schools like you did actually have too many children, as claimed by Andrew. Most of the times Catholics who breed like rabbits would be those in poverty.
@@MarkEdwardSinclairHi Mark. I haven’t looked for a long time, but the last time I did check, Catholics did not kick out “the needy”: It was just the opposite. As for “problem students”, it is definitely true that they could/did get kicked out. But one thing they used to do was punish kids for not trying to learn. Success was not a requirement, but children were punished for not trying. I noticed that children in (American) public schools were definitely not punished when they didn’t try to learn. Apparently, only direct disruption was punished. Cheers.
and they could choose the students who attend. no slow-learners, no disabled children, no neurodivergent children.
@@margaretjohnson6259 Hi Margaret. As I said above, I haven’t looked into this for some time, but at least in the past, your assertions were simply incorrect. Catholic schools used to have slow learners, disabled students, and ‘neural divergent’ students. They did not attempt to educate severely impaired students or disruptive students, and they didn’t allow pregnant students. So it’s a mixed bag. [Dislike them if you wish, this might be fair, but do so for things they actually did.]
Those native kids in Canada might not agree with that claim.
You mean the ones that were forced to convert to christianity and forced to abandon their language??
@charlessarver1637 (The ones in the ground)
Why is it that the best countries to live in are those with the lowest religious influence?
You answered your own question. Z
Because you don’t need religion when you have social security and secular ways of making connections with people.
@@88marome I agree 100%
@@88marome We have this mass immigration in to Northern European countries, mainly of Muslims. Why, because it is better to live there, because there is a much better social safety net? And much less religion?
Because you don't waste half your childhood being taught nonsense.
The most outspoken atheists I know came from religious families.
Seems like the religious are the greatest breeders of atheist.
good job 👏
If 80% of a society is religious it's not surprising that a high percentage of non-religious people come from religious families.
There's millions of atheists other places, but we're brought up without religion as anything other than a class in school, so we don't have strong reactions or feelings about religion at all. Obviously the loudest ones will be the ones with trauma/strong opinions which changed their life significantly x)
Just like the most anti-christian people are Christians
As someone who was raised Roman Catholic (all 12 years of school in Catholic school, baby !), I interact with a lot of others who also went through the same thing, and we’ve all been fascinated by the fact that the only thing Catholic schools tend to produce is fervent atheists 😂
More humans have been traumatized, tortured, trivialized, terrorized, terminated, brutalized, minimized, murdered, maimed, marginalized, & mistreated in the name of one deity or another than have been over land, political power, & wealth combined. Ain't that "righteous"? Z
Religion sucks but you just completely made this up. Land and wealth? Come on.
Do you have something to support that claim?
An honest review of history should help.
@@rlugo01 Whole libraries of history books can support that claim.
@@Kawamura2 still no citation
"Yo, my name's Andrew and I've never actually thought about anything before! WOO!" 24:29
What does a religious component do for the child that a secular component does not? Should have been the question.
Guilt.
@@Nocturnalux
False. You still have a sense of guilt. Religion just teaches kids to be ruled by their guilt.
@@maxrichards3881 I assumed he meant unfounded guilt. Guilt for simply existing, as religion teaches.
@@Vintage-Bobsame here. Also fear of eternal torture in hell is another bonus of a lot of religions.
@@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279 Yup, that's one of the worst things about religion and proof it's all nonsense. It's crazy how religious people can't see that. An eternal hell is absolutely incompatible with an all-loving god. They fail to realize that their gods and religions were created by barbarians - superstitious, ignorant tribal people - who used religion and its concepts to unite tribes and control others' behavior. Nothing more or less.
So the caller is basically implying this: “Hey guys! If we all have a bunch of kids and force them to become Catholics, then they in turn will do the same to the next generation, and then Catholicism will be true by means of popularity!”
I nearly gave myself a concussion from that facepalm of an argument.
my parents were catholic and raised us catholic and by 1980 none of us were catholic any more.
Yes he was subconsciously unaware that he admitted that religion teaches ppl the only way to spread ideas is by forced indoctrination. He assumes that atheism would spread the way religion spreads by force through children. Churches are not gaining new members. They r preaching to a generation that's largely over 45. Most athiest I've spoken too were like me, raised in church. I'm not saying religion has no place, but I think it could be replaced with something healthier. Idk if it could be saved, but that reminds me of John Fugalsang, I'm OK with his message
Catholicism is already extremely popular, has been since Jesus himself appointed Peter to lead his Church.
@@margaretjohnson6259 That proves exactly squat.
@@jonfriend9329 The Bible predicted people would leave the Church in the end times. You should have read your Bible instead of aborting your children.
If this caller has reproduced, it would defeat his argument that reproduction is more advantageous to society
He has. Worse yet, he’s convinced himself to stay in a bad marriage because divorce is wrong, and it’s better for the kids if their parents grow to resent each other.
I absolutely disagree. This caller has bad ideas and appears to be starting to investigate them. This caller was honest. Indoctrination doesn't disappear overnight. These are people we need.
@@michaelhawkins6501 he’s been calling in for years. Also, he calls under different names. His ideas seem to get worse and worse.
@@keaco73 thats not a good sign then
@@keaco73Yeah, nail on the head. He calls in with a "I'm thirteen and this is deep" understanding of what he's about to say, and then is shocked when the hosts critically think about his vacuous position even a little. It really gets tiresome after 30 calls like this where he learns nothing.
The key issue with his argument is religion isn't passed down via genes
But the theofascists fight all around the world that you are judge being a racist if you speak out against their criminal sects. And they won a lot!
And most atheists were raised in religious households. Oops.
@@miskatonic_alumni Atheists have stronger minds to break free from the religious cult compound. People with weak minds stay, and do what they are told.
@@jeffbeck8993 Dude, religion is not a cult, and I was not raised in my religion.
@@TheMilitantMazdakite Here is a definition of the word Cult: A cult is a group requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant outside the norms of society, which is typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader who tightly controls its members.[1] It is in some contexts a pejorative term, also used for new religious movements and other social groups which are defined by their unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs and rituals,[2] or their common interest in a particular person, object, or goal. This sense of the term is weakly defined - having divergent definitions both in popular culture and academia - and has also been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study.
Source: Wikipedia
Iam thrilled to hear, how religion is not a cult.
“Emotional health “ being taught on Catholic schools!? 😂😂😂
Yeah, you’re born a sinner and broken. So healthy. 😳🙄 And currently my mother is not taking care of her health because her pain and suffering brings glory to god. She was all catholic educated. Her answers to anything was pray. Such useless parenting.
When did GUILT become a healthy thing ??? LOL
I never learned about anxiety even though my teachers described my behavior as incredibly anxious to a cognitive/developmental psychologist (via questionnaire). The doctor also put this in writing to my [very religious] mother/parents, and still…this was not communicated to me. Instead, I struggled with worrying about my homosexuality sending me to hell to be tortured for all of eternity!
Oh- and it wasn’t until I did some research after graduating high school that I “discovered” anxiety. Shortly after, I also heard about the Bible’s many translations and various edits from someone who had a similar upbringing and thought I may find some solace in learning more about it. That was my first significant exposure to time/culture-based influences in religious literature; it is why I am of the opinion that most religious communities deprive individuals of critical thinking skills.
@@overthemoo Instead of worrying why didn't you learn to love a woman?
@@MrMarco855 I was about to ask if the lack of a comma was intentional in your question, as it could read one of two ways. But either way, I’m not sure what your question [nor my answer] would have to do with the issue(s) I raised in my post. Particularly in relation to a young child.
Feel free to elaborate further.
At my public high school, our bio teacher refused to teach the modules on evolution because she "didn't believe in it"
So we didn't learn it!
She should be fired.
Same thing at my current private school, except my teacher would probably be fired for teaching it because it's a Christian school. He still doesn't believe in or teach it though. What he does teach is that god "gave the universe the appearance of age" and that despite the evidence pointing to evolution, or the big bang etc, it's really god that did everything and we know because the Bible. Oh yeah, and we also start every class and every online assignment with a Bible verse to contextualize what we're learning. It's basically church with an educational aspect, except they just don't teach things the Bible doesn't agree with. Ironically, my humanities teacher is the least overtly biased despite having the easiest subject to indoctrinate us with lol
@@Thunderclap117 So your biology teacher believes that JHVH is a trickster god? Or does he conceive of his god as a gaslighting sadist who has established arbitrary rules and set traps which will let him to give himself permission to torture the most curious and questioning examples of his highest creation forever? BTW, I went to an SDA school for grades 7-9, so I feel for you. It was such a crap school that I couldn't deal with public HS when I started there, so I dropped out at 16. Things worked out okay for me in the end, but it took time, and I had to take responsibility for sorting myself out rather than just going with the flow like most people do. I did, however, learn one _very_ important lesson in that SDA school that has served me well for more than half a century now: *all* religions are total BS, and only intellectually lazy and morally weak people chose to belong to any sort of church.
@@allanmason3201 I don't think he believes anything bad about the god of the bible. I'm pretty sure the thinking just sorta... stops there. The evidence doesn't line up with his beliefs so he creates an explanation, but doesn't follow through thinking about the ramifications that it has on literally anything other than what it is created to explain. I'm glad things worked out well for you! Fingers crossed I can still get something good from my education 🤞
What is true, will be so whether people 'believe' in it or not😅.
In Sweden private religious schools are the ones that produce the absolute worst results, hands down. Second to last are other private schools and on the very top are the public schools.
They all get the same funding but religious schools funnel it into the religious organisation and other private schools maximise profit by minimising resources.
Cuz religiosity is allergic to reality. Z
Education and enlightenment are the worst enemies of this oldest scam in human history. Imagine where humanity would already be without these thousand years of sabotage.
@@DonZimmerman-fz2du No it isn't. Also, the religious school is a private one.
@@TheMilitantMazdakiteOk so the earth is only 6000 years old then?
@@jesperjee What? No!
Tell me you have never been hit by a nun with a ruler without saying "I have never been hit by a nun with a ruler".
If you were it was the best thing for you. Wait until you grow up, you'll understand.
@@MrMarco855 I can't tell if you're pro-beating children, or if you're telling OP that getting randomly abused by someone in a position of authority is good practise for when they have to deal with the police.
I gotta say, these are the callers I like, he isn't getting angry, and seems receptive to rethinking ideas when presented evidence and logic, and even admitted when his logic was flawed.
But he never actually applies anything from the call. He isn’t receptive. He is playing receptive in order to come off as reasonable. He is a repeat caller who has been corrected on topics similar to this and others many times and seems to have never once applied what was said in the discussion to anything once the call ends. I like how the call went and i do enjoy these kind of calls more… im just saying that Anthony is a known character.
Almost all of the atheists here mock and belittle him, why are they so quick to be hateful?
@@MrMarco855 I wouldn't call it hateful, just on top of having multiple countries that want us dead, laws discriminating against us and massively favoring religion and giving us no true representation in democracies, and an illogical world, we get tired of the same tired arguments that do not line up logically. The religious tend to be the ones acting 'superior' due to the power imbalances in the world, yet they cannot back it up with reason, and it is frustrating.
I"d say mean comments are less hateful than the death threats we get.
@@MrMarco855 they're frustrated, not hateful. But to answer why they're frustrated, it's because these calls are a testament to how little thought religious people put into certain things beyond, "Does it confirm my beliefs or contradict them?" And that's really infuriating for a lot of people to see. Especially regular viewers who know that these callers don't actually learn from the experience.
As someone concerned with human rights and ecological sustainability, the question is HOW does religiosity produce more children? Usually at the expense of the woman's health by not allowing her to recover her body and hormonal balance before breeding her again. It is all justified with misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate religious dogma about women.
Usually by having her look after SEVERAL still dependent children without any birth spacing for proper early childhood development. Not even our PRIMATE COUSINS do this. All large-brained, intelligent, socially cooperative mammals space their births out at least 4 to 5 years and have one infant at a time. WHY? As MIT and Danish universities have revealed, birth spacing is key to giving each infant the exclusive maternal and physical contact they need for proper cognitive and emotional development. Poor birth spacing leads to more neglect of the critical emotional needs of children, babies cry longer and harder to get attention because a mother is distracted by having other dependents young to look after. It leads to more sibling rivalry. It leads to higher incidents of the dreaded "trouble second-born" child. It leads to more incidents of personality and behavioral disorders.
You will see some WILD things in nature, but among mammals of the highest intelligence particularly our cousins, a mother scrambling to take care of several all-dependent young is the MOST UNNATURAL THING EVER. You will faster find two males or two females enjoying sexual interaction than that, in the wild. This is especially true among APEX predators who require BILLIONS of other lifeforms in the biosphere for their survival. They do not need to exist in numbers larger than their ecosystem can support while replenishing its own numbers. Our population growth has caused species to go extinct, which is a signal to any ecologist that we have long surpassed ecologically sustainable numbers.
Let us not pretend the reproductive setting humanity was put on is ORGANIC to our species. It is an imperial and misogynistic construct to provide abundant cheap human labor and cannon fodder so that a few sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists at the TOP can satisfy their bottomless ego.
'Religiosity' produces more children because they don't believe in murdering helpless infants in the womb. They also don't believe in contraception/birth control. They partake as a married couple and allow nature to do what's intended. Your conclusions are based upon nothing, you have no idea about which you speak.
It almost funny listening to "Andrew" repeatedly change his story after Forrest stomps on every point he brings up and proves he's wrong. He's playing every christians favorite game...keep moving the goal posts.
yes but at least he’s conceding.
Andrew hears an argument and then does no further research before calling in and using it, always resulting in him being completely embarrassed.
Unfortunately he is ultimately too ignorant to feel embarrassment.
Andrew's arguments get shot down literally every time he calls in, but he persists in coming back to float another ridiculous idea again and again. I have a feeling he just likes to hear himself talk. I pity his wife and kids.
He literally said he's in a miserable relationship, but thinks that's actually a good thing.
I think he's just really bad at flirting and Forrest doesn't realize that's what he's doing.
@@sierraguru6942😂
I think he's playing with the 2 idiots.
@@MrMarco855 Wow Markie boy you are big mad about this channel xD
If you beleive hell is real, then it’s incredibly immoral to have kids in the first place. For god to tell people to have lots of kids even though he knows he’s throwing most of them into hell means he’s a monster
They forgot to ask him if he's ever heard of a president or politician ending a big speech without saying "God Bless America" or if he can picture a candidate winning an election while being an atheist and not ending their speeches like that.
So What?
@@RoninTF2011... Have you not been listening or are your comprehension skills this low?
@@RoninTF2011 Hey, the holy clown is in da house. 🤡✝🤡
@RoninTF2011 Wow... Best go back your your army games mate. This conversation is obviously above your present level of education 😉
@@RoninTF2011Your comment is only to be expected from a grownup, who still plays computer games.
“Because it didn’t fit into the fuckin’ pan” made me laugh really loud 😂
I believe in a secular society is best, for sure. 👍
Ya it doesn't threaten people with eternal damnation
While I disagree with him on just about everything, he said. Props to the caller for his honesty and openness. So much nicer when they don’t call in with a script.
Also, the fact that humans in the past had multiple children was for a survival rate. We don’t really have to go back that far either, my grandmother was pregnant 11 times and bore 8 children which only 6 survived past infancy. If you go back a few generations before that, there was a very high probability that only 3-4 children would have survived. This was mostly due to the complications of pregnancy, the child bearing process and disease. Most species do not have multiple offspring due to repopulation or advancing evolution, but a simple survival mechanism.
*bore
Beared isn’t a word
Thanx for reminding us what a crap shoot pregnancy is. Who in their right mind would take that gamble. Females, by necessity, have to be evolutionarily addled for the species to survive. Z
👍💙💙💙🥰✌
@@JRandaIII think they meant ‘reared’
@@JRandaII lmao, I was just thinking why does that not look right. Thanks
My secular nordic country has been happiest for many years, my secular country .......................
The traditional Jewish practice of running water over your hands before a meal is basically pointless unless you actually wash your hands properly - you know, in the same way we learned how to wash our hands during COVID
Andrew should take a walk round a European 17th century graveyard. People had many children but child mortality was considerably higher then. Modern medicine and public health initiatives (science) have reduced child mortality drastically.
Forest, you are so lucky not to have had religious ideas drilled into your mind when you were growing up. Coming out of that fully for me took 12 years. It was such an emotional roller-coaster. Psychologists talk about stages of grief. It felt like that. There was a lot of confusion, frustration, bargaining, anger, disillusionment, depression, more bargaining, anger again, depression, and then, gradually, mental and emotional freedom made their way into the game. But, wow, it was incredibly difficult. My brothers strongly disapprove of my atheism, and my dad, who is pastor, cut me out of his life completely- They see me as weirdo for not believing. But deconversion, albeit painful, was still worth it in the end. So religion for me has not been beneficial. It brought about a lot of pain and it separated me from my family. But it introduced me to reality. And I must say I was relieved as I kept thinking what the heck I'd be doing in heaven forever anyway. That sounded like too much work. I like my life, but I wanna be done with it at some point. 😂
Religion makes a person so dishonest 😮
It sure does. You have to lie to yourself.
Here you are lying about dishonesty.
Exactly the opposite, the proof is all over these comments. Atheists invent things and claim religion is responsible.
Also when it comes to critical thinking, religion turns the switch to off, then breaks the switch from ever turning back on.
Andrew doesn't want to use the word force but what else do you want to call hell?
A threat. An ultimatum. A government mandate.
Anything besides actually stating the quiet part out loud.
This guy is A1 yapper.
Fluent in yappenese
Andrew calls in a lot and every one of his arguments is just easily destroyed by every host. Forest literally proved every point Andrew made wrong with ease.
I hope hes not one of them "phone these people for extra credit in this apologetics class" types.
There's been calls where Matt Dilahunty has made better arguments on Andrew's behalf and still demolished those, because Andrew is incapable of making even a single sound argument.
And I proved Forrest is wrong with ease.
@@MrMarco855 Oh yeah? When and where did this happen??
One thing I will say that sent me into a tailspin for the rest of my life is in first fucking grade, 5, maybe 6 years old, I remember coming home crying my eyes out one day because my teacher had told me that I was not a good person if I didn't go to church.
I did not know what to do with that information at that time, but I blame her for the theological roller coaster I went on, without even knowing it, and was the foundation of the atheist that I am today.
Nice story, a fairy tale.
♦"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."
♦"Only fools revere the supernatural myths just bc a book claims itself to be the holy truth."
♦"Religious fools believe by the millions what only lunatics could believe on their own."
♦"The delusional religious fools are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt."
♦"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
♦"It's difficult to free fools from the chains they revere."
Weak men quote other men. Mark.
@@MrMarco855
Weak ignorant men ignore the truth in other's quotes.
@@MrMarco855
Weak men ignore the truth in other men's quotes.
@@MrMarco855 ... are you quoting yourself... or someone else?
@Strong men decide things for themselves. Another man's quote is his opinion, which means exactly shit to me. There is no truth in the quotes you admire, and the men who made the quote, only a sarcastic opinion in most cases. I like to think for myself, but if you like to follow men that are superior to you, have at it.@@AtamMardes
I commend these two for the amount of patience they have when talking to someone like this... I've had to deal with people like Andrew my entire upbringing and it can get exhausting.
There’s also a correlation between higher iq and having fewer children.
Absolutely.
And those who claim to be religious (besides "spiritual") are about half a standard deviation below the IQ of those who don't
Well, you can study for more tests without kids. But IQ isn't a measurement of intelligence. Just your test taking skills.
There is a correlation in some societies but looking on the individual level that doesn't seem to be true. As always correlation doesn't equal causation.
There’s also a correlation between higher quality of life and having fewer children.
In Japan’s business environment handing a business card with one hand is considered rude (as opposed to handing it with both hands). That’s what Forrest is talking about, in case anyone was wondering which country he was referring to.
It’s like he’s never had his beliefs challenged before. He keeps pausing for a long time and repeats the questions to himself.
Fact 1. In the 1930s Spain's education system was run entirely by the Catholic church. Fact 2. The country with the lowest educational standard in all of Europe in the 1930's was Spain.
Fact #1-The Catholic Church was under attack in Spain from 1931 until 1939. The 'Republican' political entity was anti-church and they held power from 1931 to 1936. From 1936 to 1939, Spain was engaged in a civil war. During this time Catholic clergy were under violent attack. Of the 30,000 Catholic clergy in Spain at the time, 7,000 were murdered. Thousands of Catholic Churches were destroyed. It wasn't until a new party took over in 1939 that the attacks discontinued. The Catholic Church never had complete control of education in Spain. Fact #2-The lowest standard in Spain had nothing to do with the Catholic Church. I just explained that the C.C. was under attack throughout the 1930's, they had no participation in the control of education for the entire decade. Fact #3- You're wrong on both Facts #1 and #2.
Since Franco's death and the end of very his very catholic regime, Spain has not only caught up, but surpassed most developed countries.
I went to Catholic school for 15 years and will never fully recover.
Poor baby. Who taught you to tell absurd stories?
@@MrMarco855Christian love~~~
@@Nocturnalux You began by demonizing Catholicism with a fairy tale.
I feel you I was protestant and told I was going to hell and it scared me
Your problem is trying to recover from 15 years in an 8 year grade school.
Victory in Europe Day (V-E Day) was May 8, 1945.
The vatican apologized "for failing to take more decisive action" during WWII on March 17, 1998.
That's 52 years, 10 months, 9 days after V-E Day.
O,h no, they were pretty decisive back then.
We all know which side they picked, its the same side they've always been on and are still on.
@@BaronVonQuiply - My original reply had a reference to the article the quote came from, which was a Washington Post article published March 17, 1998.
And I'll end this one here so YT leaves it.
@@BaronVonQuiplyyep
Many Catholics fought and died in WW2.
Makes no difference when they apologized. The important factor is that they apologized. My dad was there for 33 months, he was Catholic, he and other Catholics made a contribution on behalf of the Vatican. Let's talk about the rulers that were atheists and reigned terror on their own people, savagely murdering millions of them. When have you, as an atheist, apologized for the atrocities they committed?
This guy seems to think Religion is the MSG of society....it makes it better....LOL. You have got to be kidding me!
No, you have to be kidding me. Atheists have nothing to base morals on, save for Christianity that was passed down in your family heritage.
I fail to see how religion is in any way important to social and emotional learning. If anything it holds them back by shackling their thinking and teaching them to other those not in their religion.
You're lying as atheists often do. In my Catholic school we never mentioned any other religion, never mentioned atheists, focused on our studies and our beliefs. I didn't know anything about other Christian religions, other religions or atheism. We had no concern and never spoke negative about any of them. Atheists like you constantly bash Christians/Catholics, that's what you enjoy most and live for.
Andrew is devolving into a sad troll. Throws something new at the wall each week, hoping somewhere something might stick and make his life make sense.
In the late 80's, Christianity Today published an article about Christian Reconstructionism, the "Christian Nationalism" of its day and the political mentors of Falwell's Religious Right (despite disagreeing on theology: premillennialism versus postmillennialism). Its title was something like "Democracy as Heresy." The article quoted one reconstructionist as denouncing democracy and the idea of human rights as having been invented by Satan. Another urged his followers to demand their own religious rights "so that we can then take their religious rights away from them." Clearly, we cannot expect activist Christians to even consider respecting human rights.
Staying with the original Church, initiated by Jesus himself, the Catholic Church, is the key to following God properly.
(The world is currently engaged in multiple confrontations with one actually having to do with religion)
Theists: religion makes our society better!
Not just Isreal/Hamas.
The other (Russian attack of Ukraine) isn't cuz religion. But Russian Orthodox is weaponized against Ukraine.
The Houthis are politically/religiously motivated...
Evangelism fueling MAGA...
Religion makes nothing better.
Having a lot of babies is not an advantageous evolutionary trait. Overproduction of offspring has ended soooooo many species.
You can’t take two countries and compare them using only one factor, religion, and then blame that one factor for the success or failure of the countries.
True, but nor can you make the opposite claim that it's religion that makes one country better than another.
In 1992 the Catholic church apologized for putting Galileo under house arrest for his scientific claims. That was over 350 years!!! How much did that hold us back as a society!? And this is just the tip of the iceburg. But I do have hope for this caller.
actually (I’ve heard), best educated churchmen thot Galileo was at least partially right. The other side of the argument is that he was punished for disobedience. Maybe ppl should examine this side of the story b fore assuming that the religious authorities simply sort of plugged their ears to the truth.
@@dwightfitch3120and what exactly was he disobeying? Maybe a certain religious authority?
@@dwightfitch3120 i didn’t say anything about the truth. I’m sure the church knew he was right but that would go against their doctrine. Also, you “heard” about that but didn’t do any research? Why don’t you apply some skepticism and check for yourself rather than posting silly retorts?
Get real. Science has done more devastation than anything other by far.
I went to a private Catholic School from Kindergarten to 10th grade and a public school to finish High School. I definitely felt the impact of larger class sizes in the public school environment as I didn’t receive the same level of support from the teachers because there were just too many students to provide higher levels of assistance to all of us. The quality of the educational materials was also better in private school.
I will say the Catholic School I went to was also fairly “progressive” in that they taught us evolution starting in middle school and even the Nuns that were teaching, communicated Genesis as being a story, not science.
Though the priests still couldn’t help answer the foundational questions I had on the problem of evil, the issue of Catholicism being spread through violence, as well as biblical contradictions. Usually they would just say “God works in mysterious ways, my son”. I now affirm that Catholic School is the reason I am an atheist. 😂
As far as I know, the Catholic religion has no problem with evolution. But it's not progressive in any other way 😊
I assume you had your understanding of religion, and in particular, of Catholicism filtered through the Baltimore Catechism, the handbook that takes parochial students on an Alice in Wonderland journey through logic. Every thorny question that is outside the obvious is met with one answer: "It's a mystery." I began to believe that the gospels were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and Agatha Christie.
So if Hindu students are further ahead in school than Catholic students, Hinduism must be true.
A common thread I've seen in religion is that it makes it much easier to do bad things to a selected group of people. You can point to a demographic, claim that your deity says they're wrong and therefore it's ok to treat them like crap. Or it's ok to not help them in times of need. Or it's ok for them to die because they upset your god.
This can and has happened in secular cases, but the people in charge have much more convincing to do. They can't hand wave and say their actions are a punishment from a god. And they'll have to deal with a pushback from those who disagree. I can't recall a time when a religion called its god out on something they disagreed with.
Their "struggles" are all cosmic can't argue with poeple who believe their god makes them righteous
Being able to respond to that without just telling them they're the dumbest piece of shit ever to walk the face of the earth totally left me in awe. I might be able to manage it in text but in person I'd have flipped out. You are awesome peeps.
Two extremes of breeding in nature are:
- Lots of babies, but due to lack of care few survive to adulthood.
- Few babies, but due to parental care almost all of them survive to adulthood.
As a human being, what do you prefer: Have six or ten children, of which only three survive to adulthood? Or have two children, both of which live to adulthood?
Sure, three is more - if you don't mind having to bury seven more.
I actually appreciate that Andrew was answering almost all of the questions honestly instead of just ducking and dodging, you don't see that often from theists.
Never see it from an atheist.
@@MrMarco855 Ducking and diving or answering honestly?
" Religion makes society better "...yet the time when religious belief was at its highest is now referred to as the dark ages.
Well, that’s pretty amazing. Usually when call-in people run up against evidence that might shake up their religious beliefs, they double down and start making shit up. Andrew for the most part, did not do that. Hearing his views reflected back with a critical take got him thinking. So, if he goes back to the drawing board now, he will do it knowing some of the holes in his premises. Very productive talk.
Andrew is anything but productive.
I love listening to intelligent and logical people discuss real issues.
I'm glad I found this channel.
2 separate things you're saying.
ForrestFire❤
Andrew's ability to have such reductionist views is pretty impressive :):) LOL
Andrew is just braindead sad to say. It’s like no matter how many arguments of his you demolish he will refuse to concede he’s wrong. Its crazy.
I wouldn't necessarily say braindead, just more like it shows how scary effective religious indoctrination tends to be. Given enough decades, positively thinking about anything related to their religion winds up being as natural as breathing, and at that point they become impossible to convince because they'd literally have to entirely reconstruct their brain in order to not have that association, let alone manage to comprehend and interpret the actual bad parts of their religion.
Tiger in the Savannah? Come on, Forrest!! Okay, that's my only complaint.
I’ve noted that too😅
Checkmate, atheists
Livingstone: What we doctors, in fact, call a tiger.
Officers: A tiger...!!
[The battle with the Zulus suddenly stops.]
All: A tiger!
[The Zulus run off.]
Pakenham-Walsh: A tiger... in Africa...?
Ainsworth: Ah... Well it's probably escaped from a zoo.
At my grandson's public school, there's a sign right outside the office door stating, "God is good!" There's also a prayer tent at the entrance to the county (actually parish,) court. I've reported them both to the FFRF. (Welcome to America's deep south.)
I don't see how overpopulation on a planet with finite resources could be a good thing.
Ándrew: "We have inherent Rights,.. God has given us those Rights and they cant be taken away!"
And.. what exactly does this supposed God-Thingy do when someone violates those supposed "..Rights.."? Nothing!
Looks like in Fact, they do can be taken away when no one is protecting them.
Actual Rights only work when 1) someone is granting them.... AND... 2) someone is protecting those Rights .. so they dont get violated and when they do get violated that there will be punishment for those who did (in the hope it will make People not want to violate them again).
I hate to be another person on the Internet referencing a George Carlin bit, but he did do one on the idea of "god given rights". He asked if rights are given by god, why do different people have different rights depending on when and where they live? You can look back on history and see where whole groups of people had their rights stripped away. Ask them about your precious "god given rights".Rights are a human idea, and it's up to humans to protect those ideas.
In Finland - private schools are shit. (oo wait we have none)
Only education system for basic education from elementary to college should be public schools. That would teach also kids that not all are wealthy etc and it would teach them to get along with all types of people from all types of social backgrounds.
How many idiots does it take to get to the moon? Quality over quantity
That depends. How high can you stack them? ;-)
Lol heaven is real
His premise that religious people have more children and thus it provides some sort of advantage, does not account for all the different religions that as an a priori factor, cannot all be true. Hence there must be a ton of religions whose teachings are false despite prodigious reproduction.
I believe 50%+ of all the worlds problems can be traced back to religion
Only 50%+???
@skintagane2367 capitalistic greed and it's use of religion is the rest. Land and resource grabs. The US funding religious fundamentalists to destabilize a government that's nationalized its resources or just invading
@@skintagane2367 at least 50%. the + is everything else I'm not sure about. It could be 100% for all I know tbh
Gotcha
@@thetruefirelord2248
Let's hear it, name those problems dim bulb. 99% of the world's problems can be laid at the doorstep of science.
The Nordic countries have far better metrics in happiness, education, health, etc. it’s a very long list and they are extremely secular. So, I’m ready for Andrew to be an Atheist now.
I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition
In the 1800s, we went from horses & farms to electricity & engines. It was exponential technological progress because we started to embrace science
I feel bad for Americans.
Only Americans think America is the greatest country on this planet. But the rest of the world knows better.
It's great being born here and being surrounded by this insanity 😢
I live in rural USA, after 30 years in Europe. It's an intellectual and cultural desert in comparison. Driving me slowly nuts.
@@chrisgrill6302I've been living rural my whole life. You just haven't met the right people
Feel extremely bad for us americans.
Andrew, if the predominance of beliefs defines the correctness of the society, have you considered Germany in the early 1940s? Also, ask the victims of pedo priests if religion makes society better.
_"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false & by the rulers as useful."_ [Seneca]
Another weak atheist quoting the opinion of an idiot. The 'wise' have zero proof of their claims, rulers have always been evil, the common man is the only group that can often be trusted and believed.
No, he never said that, even if he did, it's false, and religion can also be used to topple those rulers. My religion, Mazdakism, is proof of that.
@@TheMilitantMazdakite And who _replaced_ those old rulers?!
@@Egooist. Ahura Mazda's rule of absolute equality, that's what!
@@TheMilitantMazdakite Didn't the weakening of the nobility by the Mazdakistic revolt ultimately empower the king?!
That’s how we do religious education in Sweden, we just teach facts *about* all the major religious traditions, but it’s very illegal to try and teach them as literally true :P
Catholic schools can choose their students and public schools have to teach all students within their district.
My husband and I have six children, we are both atheists and so are our children!
I think it's great that Andrew was able to think about it and actually have a discussion.
Yeah, Andrew is one of the most polite and honest callers I've heard on this channel. I don't agree with most of what he said, but the way he held the conversation was great.
Love when Forrest has the wiggles- it feels oddly validating to see a person freely stimming in the wild
Andrew has called the line time and time and time again just to get his ass handed to him every single time. He is not a critical thinker. He is ridiculous beyond words. He is an example of what's wrong with religion and indoctrination.
When a religion gets more progressive, it moves towards a secular society. To put it another way, If a society moves closer to religion then it gets LESS progressive.
I can say that Gordon is a very well-educated and quite intelligent person. I would like to see Gorgon more. Someone with new ideas and life view.
It is refreshing.
*Thousands of years ago long before Jesus, it is the Sun which is rebirthed in the Passageway of an ancient tomb (the Grand Passage tomb).*
*Let the Sunshine In...*
.
Feel sorry for Andrews kids
'Saudi Arabia seems to be working'. Profound.
Logic fail 101.
Andrew is the new Amanuel😵💫
New name!😂
Yeah, I said that a while ago.
Why can these people never just awnser a yes or no question?
Worth watching, for the ham story alone.
I love this ham story
A few decades ago the US was a much better place, but since evangelical religions have come to dominate after the 1980's, the US has become a much more dangerous place to visit, with rapidly declining social, education, and health standards, with increasing levels of bigotry and ignorance, and increasing fears of crime and gun violence.
Around the world, the best countries to live in, with the best health care, the longest life spans, the greatest freedoms, the least bigotry are the secular democracies such as Norway, Australia, Denmark, Netherlands, New Zealand, etc, while the places with the greatest religiosity, like Iran, USA, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc, are the least desirable places to live.
In the US, the largest sources of migration are from very poor and chaotic countries. In contrast, a country like Australia has more Americans migrating to it vs the number of Australians that migrate to the US. It is very telling that so many Americans see Australia as the place of more freedom, a better life, and more opportunity than the US. I would dare to suggest that the much greater secularism of Australian society, with its very low rates of church attendance and belief in god is foundational to the more caring society that exists there. Australians live around five years longer than Americans, and are healthier while alive than Americans due to good old secular universal health care. Public services are better. Corruption and crime rates are lower. Fear is much lower. Pay-rates for work are higher.
And it all stems from good old fashioned secularism within society and politics.
I grew up Catholic and realized it was BS early on. I’ve experienced conversations like this and it was extremely painful. Good job guys on trying to get this guy to think logically. I think the caller will eventually figure it out.
At the catholic school I went to I started asking the nuns and priests questions in the second grade that they gave me answers that did not make sense and seemed unjust. I did not last much longer at that school and fortunately went to public school after that.
@@primafacie9721 i bet you were yelled at for asking too many questions as well. It’s crazy. I did 12 years catholic school and during that time i thought i was a good person because i “confessed my sins” to a priest on a dark room. Empathy was never taught. Just say sorry to have offended a boogie man on the sky and it was all good! Thank a god i figured it out!
One day as our recess period wound down I went and laid down in a concrete drainage cut that was only about 8 inches deep and after everyone went back into class I walked home and told my mom that they let school out early. My dad said if I wanted out that badly I could leave so they sent me to public school.😀@@bicivelo
I don't think you were Catholic. Atheists lie very often.
@@primafacie9721 A Catholic priest provided answers that didn't make sense to a 7 year old? If you're going to lie you need to tone it down a bit.