First, we need more flaggers. I've been flagging Thunder Valley for a while. Even when flagger turnout is good, we're still understaffed. Second, the individual(s) responsible for providing the flag crew need a written manual and checklist that they should go through step by step. Our managers recite what needs to be done by memory, with no documentation. So, they forget things, introduce things in the wrong order, and apply a subjective element since they're doing it by memory. Third, they should also come up with a better training program. Not enough time is spent on training flaggers, and even us returning flaggers, who many haven't flagged for a full season, should be walked through it to reinforce what we think we know and correct where our memory has failed us. Fourth, all flaggers should have radios, and there should be specific verbiage taught where flaggers and AMA officials can communicate, more than what we have now. Presently, only the AMA and certain track crew members get radios, as do the WOG (wheels on the ground) flaggers. All flaggers should have them, and don't forget the training. Having been a WOG flagger, those radios provide great info, and their presence could be leveraged to help even more. That said, critics should flag before criticizing. If they did, they'd understand that the flagger during today's Hymas incident actually did decent. Flaggers are taught to keep themselves safe first, flag to prevent further incident second, and last only intervene if a rider is trapped and personnel aren't available. The flagger in that incident tried to remove the bike, but correctly was also thinking of ensuring more riders were aware of the incident. He was trying to do two things at once. He attempted to remove the bike, but that's not easily done in a split second. It appeared to me he was also evaluating the situation, knowing the rider and bike weren't on the track, so he unweighted the bike while the assigned personnel for rider care came to the scene. Also, that flagger at 2:18 in the video was doing his job correctly. Flagger responsibility are from where you're standing and down the track (in direction of the race). He was looking down the track, and the crash happened behind him. He also was attentive enough to have his head on a swivel, and by doing so, noticed the accident a few feet up the track (again, not his responsibility), and moved into position to flag appropriately. That Mark Fineas incident seems like speculation of what was going on over the top of the hill. Looks to me like the flagger on the left of the track was incorrectly positioned. The flag management crew tells us where to stand. or at minimum gives us an area. Given what's shown in the video, there was an AMA official at the top corner of the hill without any flags, but with a radio. Had the flaggers been correctly positioned, there might have been better coverage, but, without seeing the entire section, it's tough to say. To me, there isn't enough information that shows it was one flagger's fault. Last year, they put me in a bad spot (oncoming riders weren't able to see me). I was fortunate that between the time the races started, I was able to get the attention of an AMA track official and request repositioning. Yes, admittedly that came with experience of riding that track and having an idea of where the riders were looking at the time, but the point is that we flaggers can request repositioning....something our management staff didn't cover in the "training". Again, more flaggers (preferrably with an excess so newbies can train during a race with experienced flaggers), better training, add radios, and just because you have a voice on a public platform, use it only when you know what you're talking about. That's done by volunteering and flagging yourself, so you can really see what's going on.
Flaggers are told that when a crash occurs there should be two folks waving, the first person upstream should be STATIC (telling the rider - hey heads up) and the next person at the crash should be waving with enthusiasm. So that flagger was correct and doing their job and the riders have been informed to expect to see that scenario on the track. Secondly, all flaggers are told NEVER EVER go on the track for any reason...period! They have a crew on ATV's that have radios and respond but no flagger should ever be on the track. Real easy to get killed and then who is flagging? Also if a rider receives any outside assistance he or she will be penalized. The flagger with the "streaming flag" was wrong by not having his flag unraveled and ready to wave. Moto Fever, I have flagged a lot and you can wave and point in the direction you want the rider to go in and they are just in their zone and seemingly refuse to take your advice. It may be that they always take that same line and they feel that is there only line?? Last thing IMO, remember to a rider when they see a yellow flag waving it means "gas it" because they are picking up another position....you would think a racer would be thinking hey someone is hurt or even paralyzed, or I as a rider could get hurt so I better slow up but if they thought that way they wouldn't be racers. IMO. I would love to see better flaggers and would love to see all flaggers wearing helmets and on point like in Europe but that takes time.
@joewahrerMotorcycleMan I hear you, but this still boils down to the same issue. The flaggers aren't being well equipped for what they're doing. If they are told not to go on the track it's likely because mx sport doesn't want to be liable for them getting hit (fair enough) but that also severely limits what they can do to protect the riders. If there was a paid traveling flagging crew they would be well trained and know when it's safe/necessary to run out on the track and when it's not. We already have a great example of what this should look like in supercross. Those guys run on the track and even put tough blocks out. Sure supercross is a smaller track to monitor but that type of flagging should still be the standard in my opinion.
@@motofevermedia1 I am not sure I would put supercross flaggers on such a pedestal because you go back and watch and at times no less than 6 flaggers were all waving their flags and I thought how does any rider know where the heck the incident is?? If you go flag you will get a better understanding of what it is truly like and it may change your views. Cheers
The problem with these videos is that they don't show the flaggers who are supposed to protect the area of the crash. The ones shown are supposed to be protecting the following corners and only acting as a secondary flagger as with the 5:15 and 6:30 crashes. The primary flaggers, for most of these crashes are standing uptrack, out of the camera's view. As for the Screw-U incident, that flagger had started waving and was moving toward the corner before the jump, so that the approaching bikes would have more time to slow. Unfortunately, you aren't going to see that from the downhill side camera. For the Sky Shot incident, there is a traffic light at the jump faces to warn the riders of a crash. The down track flagman is protecting the area after the landing. There is another out of view AMA official who controls the traffic light upstream of the jump face. Again, the camera doesn't show that. Flaggers are told not to set foot on the track, even if a bike is on top of a rider. Their job is to warn approaching riders of the crash. The AMA has a crew handling downed bikes and riders. Don't let a closeup view of the crash site form your opinion of what is being done upstream of the crash. Most of these flagmen are actual MX riders, not the glorified spectators like this video would like you to believe.
@@motofevermedia1 I didn't witness the Webb incident, so I'm not commenting on it. As for the 6:30 incident, that flagger was covering the uphill doubles, not the corner where the crash occured. Again, there was a flagger upstream of the crash, out of the camera's view. I have witnessed that a lot of the top riders pretty much ignore the yellow flags, even when they are almost being hit in the face by them. They are, for the most part, balls to the wall until they can actually see the downed rider.
Thanks for making this! The sense of urgency from the top five riders should be equivalent to any flagger for any incident. As a flagger, I always create a likely worst case in my head and set up to prevent it, the example on the steep downhill showing how it's done wrong.
@819jt yeah, it's understandable how a fan that's "flagging" would get caught up in watching the race instead of their zone but it would be nice if they would stay focused. At the end of the day, it's hard to blame them though. If mx sports actually took selecting/training their flaggers seriously, I don't think we would see this many issues.
@@motofevermedia1 In the age of helmet communications, cell phones, inexpensive long range radios... 😳, then I get annoyed abt how much I paid for a transponder...😠
What you don't realize is that there are extra roaming flaggers to jump in and help where needed. The stationary flaggers always remain in place available for the next crash, but the roamers are free to help where needed.
There was another incident today too after sky shot. It wasn’t televised, but even an AMA uniformed flagger wasn’t directing people the right way. We were yelling at the flagger to get out on the lip of sky shot, as he was standing behind the lip, where none of the riders could even see him
@@motofevermedia1 The AMA turns on the traffic lights, which were on both the left and right sides of the jump face, which tell the riders that it's not safe to jump. The downstream AMA flagger was covering the valley after the jump.
@laserdad that's fair but I do question the efficacy of those lights if there is a rider down on the landing and the riders who are jumping don't know which side to avoid. Unless it's a red cross flag, they're still going to jump.
@@laserdad the lights are a great improvement, being able to take some of the human error out of it, but the lights, to my knowledge, don’t indicate to push or pull the riders to one side of the track. They could have pulled riders to the left side, which would have kept the situation safer.
I did a fair amount of flagging and at the Unadilla amateur track many times and you need to be a motocross rider to flag properly. Get ahold of the SATRA motocross club in Syracuse NY and they would probably flag pro race as we are back flagging the amateurs on Unadilla 2
I seen everything you pointed out in this video, but also Jo was almost impaled with a wooden stake. I thought the had this issue at Hangtown a few years ago and they are supposed to have them back off the edge of the track? If it was my call I would say a minimum of 15 feet, the speed is too high for anything closer. And they should just use banners on the ground, you'll see it every lap on TV and in person.
Hear me out. Put lights on the front fender. If a section is under caution flash it yellow. If a red cross flag is out flash it red. Put a cover on it with an opening so the rider can see it but it won't get caked with dirt.
I actually brought up that idea in my last flagging video. You could also have a race director that is in each riders ear warning of potential crashes as well as letting lappers know when the leader is coming by and what not. It wouldn't have to be communication with their teams, just one channel with an ama official letting riders know what's going on. There's solutions out there. I think the GPS with the lights on the track is a good start but it won't fix how bad the flagging is.
The one next to vialle kills me, dude waving the flag next to or after a downed rider doesn't do anything man... if the riders are already seeing the downed rider at the same time or before the yellow flag you might as well not bother waving it. Really that situation belongs to the flagger in the previous section, assuming there was one that is. Also, deegan was sketchy coming through that section, he seems to just ignore yellow flags and uses zero caution. Like it's a blind hill and he didn't slow down at all, he just got lucky and happened to squeeze through, I've seen him do this numerous times.
@@colefredericks2869 in the Vialle situation, the flagger up the track would've been the one that was not doing great in the Webb situation. From what I could see on the broadcast, he was nowhere to be seen.
I’ll be a flagger, I’m running on the track and standing where the bike is or near it pointing to push. Like they use to on the 90s. I don’t want any $ either
Don’t sugar coat mx sports. They’re there to keep their fortune they’ve built on the sweat blood and broken bones of riders chasing their dreams. Many families go broke while they get richer. This sport has to change with the payouts…period! Yes! I lived that side of the fence and nothing makes sense because they have a monopoly so until another series starts mxsports will milk the riders dry. fax
Dude I've never even seen it be this bad, raced for over a decade, but this is a pro race and the guys literally can't even make a figure 8 motion to prevent the flag from rolling up, every single one these was either wadding it up or just holding it out and not waving, which if you're a rider, a non moving flag just blends in with the yellow markers all over the edge of the track
They have had reps over the years that would go before the promoters and present issues like track changes that are needed but nothing official like a union
If you got a ticket they make you a flagger. They probably don't pay them anything for one thing. it's not the first time I've seen flaggers messing up so come on let's give them some training. How about the time the girl walked across the front of the start last year in the SMX. Do they know what they're doing are they training these people to watch out be careful come on somebody's going to get hurt eventually.
@woundedtiger7547 I feel like the majority of these issues come down to just being properly trained and well practiced. For the most part all of these flaggers will only flag a national MAYBE once a year. They're probably more interested in watching the races than flagging properly.
First, we need more flaggers. I've been flagging Thunder Valley for a while. Even when flagger turnout is good, we're still understaffed. Second, the individual(s) responsible for providing the flag crew need a written manual and checklist that they should go through step by step. Our managers recite what needs to be done by memory, with no documentation. So, they forget things, introduce things in the wrong order, and apply a subjective element since they're doing it by memory. Third, they should also come up with a better training program. Not enough time is spent on training flaggers, and even us returning flaggers, who many haven't flagged for a full season, should be walked through it to reinforce what we think we know and correct where our memory has failed us. Fourth, all flaggers should have radios, and there should be specific verbiage taught where flaggers and AMA officials can communicate, more than what we have now. Presently, only the AMA and certain track crew members get radios, as do the WOG (wheels on the ground) flaggers. All flaggers should have them, and don't forget the training. Having been a WOG flagger, those radios provide great info, and their presence could be leveraged to help even more.
That said, critics should flag before criticizing. If they did, they'd understand that the flagger during today's Hymas incident actually did decent. Flaggers are taught to keep themselves safe first, flag to prevent further incident second, and last only intervene if a rider is trapped and personnel aren't available. The flagger in that incident tried to remove the bike, but correctly was also thinking of ensuring more riders were aware of the incident. He was trying to do two things at once. He attempted to remove the bike, but that's not easily done in a split second. It appeared to me he was also evaluating the situation, knowing the rider and bike weren't on the track, so he unweighted the bike while the assigned personnel for rider care came to the scene. Also, that flagger at 2:18 in the video was doing his job correctly. Flagger responsibility are from where you're standing and down the track (in direction of the race). He was looking down the track, and the crash happened behind him. He also was attentive enough to have his head on a swivel, and by doing so, noticed the accident a few feet up the track (again, not his responsibility), and moved into position to flag appropriately.
That Mark Fineas incident seems like speculation of what was going on over the top of the hill. Looks to me like the flagger on the left of the track was incorrectly positioned. The flag management crew tells us where to stand. or at minimum gives us an area. Given what's shown in the video, there was an AMA official at the top corner of the hill without any flags, but with a radio. Had the flaggers been correctly positioned, there might have been better coverage, but, without seeing the entire section, it's tough to say. To me, there isn't enough information that shows it was one flagger's fault. Last year, they put me in a bad spot (oncoming riders weren't able to see me). I was fortunate that between the time the races started, I was able to get the attention of an AMA track official and request repositioning. Yes, admittedly that came with experience of riding that track and having an idea of where the riders were looking at the time, but the point is that we flaggers can request repositioning....something our management staff didn't cover in the "training".
Again, more flaggers (preferrably with an excess so newbies can train during a race with experienced flaggers), better training, add radios, and just because you have a voice on a public platform, use it only when you know what you're talking about. That's done by volunteering and flagging yourself, so you can really see what's going on.
Appreciate your in depth insight
Flaggers are told that when a crash occurs there should be two folks waving, the first person upstream should be STATIC (telling the rider - hey heads up) and the next person at the crash should be waving with enthusiasm. So that flagger was correct and doing their job and the riders have been informed to expect to see that scenario on the track. Secondly, all flaggers are told NEVER EVER go on the track for any reason...period! They have a crew on ATV's that have radios and respond but no flagger should ever be on the track. Real easy to get killed and then who is flagging? Also if a rider receives any outside assistance he or she will be penalized. The flagger with the "streaming flag" was wrong by not having his flag unraveled and ready to wave. Moto Fever, I have flagged a lot and you can wave and point in the direction you want the rider to go in and they are just in their zone and seemingly refuse to take your advice. It may be that they always take that same line and they feel that is there only line?? Last thing IMO, remember to a rider when they see a yellow flag waving it means "gas it" because they are picking up another position....you would think a racer would be thinking hey someone is hurt or even paralyzed, or I as a rider could get hurt so I better slow up but if they thought that way they wouldn't be racers. IMO. I would love to see better flaggers and would love to see all flaggers wearing helmets and on point like in Europe but that takes time.
@joewahrerMotorcycleMan I hear you, but this still boils down to the same issue. The flaggers aren't being well equipped for what they're doing. If they are told not to go on the track it's likely because mx sport doesn't want to be liable for them getting hit (fair enough) but that also severely limits what they can do to protect the riders. If there was a paid traveling flagging crew they would be well trained and know when it's safe/necessary to run out on the track and when it's not. We already have a great example of what this should look like in supercross. Those guys run on the track and even put tough blocks out. Sure supercross is a smaller track to monitor but that type of flagging should still be the standard in my opinion.
@@motofevermedia1 I am not sure I would put supercross flaggers on such a pedestal because you go back and watch and at times no less than 6 flaggers were all waving their flags and I thought how does any rider know where the heck the incident is?? If you go flag you will get a better understanding of what it is truly like and it may change your views. Cheers
The problem with these videos is that they don't show the flaggers who are supposed to protect the area of the crash. The ones shown are supposed to be protecting the following corners and only acting as a secondary flagger as with the 5:15 and 6:30 crashes. The primary flaggers, for most of these crashes are standing uptrack, out of the camera's view.
As for the Screw-U incident, that flagger had started waving and was moving toward the corner before the jump, so that the approaching bikes would have more time to slow. Unfortunately, you aren't going to see that from the downhill side camera.
For the Sky Shot incident, there is a traffic light at the jump faces to warn the riders of a crash. The down track flagman is protecting the area after the landing. There is another out of view AMA official who controls the traffic light upstream of the jump face. Again, the camera doesn't show that.
Flaggers are told not to set foot on the track, even if a bike is on top of a rider. Their job is to warn approaching riders of the crash. The AMA has a crew handling downed bikes and riders.
Don't let a closeup view of the crash site form your opinion of what is being done upstream of the crash. Most of these flagmen are actual MX riders, not the glorified spectators like this video would like you to believe.
I'd like to hear your explanation for the Webb incident then.
@@motofevermedia1
I didn't witness the Webb incident, so I'm not commenting on it.
As for the 6:30 incident, that flagger was covering the uphill doubles, not the corner where the crash occured. Again, there was a flagger upstream of the crash, out of the camera's view.
I have witnessed that a lot of the top riders pretty much ignore the yellow flags, even when they are almost being hit in the face by them. They are, for the most part, balls to the wall until they can actually see the downed rider.
Thanks for making this! The sense of urgency from the top five riders should be equivalent to any flagger for any incident. As a flagger, I always create a likely worst case in my head and set up to prevent it, the example on the steep downhill showing how it's done wrong.
@819jt yeah, it's understandable how a fan that's "flagging" would get caught up in watching the race instead of their zone but it would be nice if they would stay focused. At the end of the day, it's hard to blame them though. If mx sports actually took selecting/training their flaggers seriously, I don't think we would see this many issues.
@@motofevermedia1 In the age of helmet communications, cell phones, inexpensive long range radios... 😳, then I get annoyed abt how much I paid for a transponder...😠
You missed the one with Casey cochran. The flageer walked off the track with Casey.The Teams need to demand Davey Coombs comes off some Money.
@rtyhhas yeah, I'm sure that's not the only one I missed too. It's pretty wild how there can be this many issues in 1 day.
What you don't realize is that there are extra roaming flaggers to jump in and help where needed. The stationary flaggers always remain in place available for the next crash, but the roamers are free to help where needed.
@@laserdad whatever the system is, it seems like it could be significantly better
@@motofevermedia1 Flaggers are there to protect the downed riders. The fact that crashes happen is not their responsibility.
There was another incident today too after sky shot. It wasn’t televised, but even an AMA uniformed flagger wasn’t directing people the right way. We were yelling at the flagger to get out on the lip of sky shot, as he was standing behind the lip, where none of the riders could even see him
Probably the same ama official from RedBud that just stood there while Haiden went off the lip and landed on that lappers bike.
@@motofevermedia1 The AMA turns on the traffic lights, which were on both the left and right sides of the jump face, which tell the riders that it's not safe to jump. The downstream AMA flagger was covering the valley after the jump.
@laserdad that's fair but I do question the efficacy of those lights if there is a rider down on the landing and the riders who are jumping don't know which side to avoid. Unless it's a red cross flag, they're still going to jump.
@@laserdad the lights are a great improvement, being able to take some of the human error out of it, but the lights, to my knowledge, don’t indicate to push or pull the riders to one side of the track. They could have pulled riders to the left side, which would have kept the situation safer.
They need to get a better promoter thay care about the riders more than the $$$$$
@@robertduster8508 💯
I did a fair amount of flagging and at the Unadilla amateur track many times and you need to be a motocross rider to flag properly. Get ahold of the SATRA motocross club in Syracuse NY and they would probably flag pro race as we are back flagging the amateurs on Unadilla 2
@OldTrucker958 yeah, I don't think many of these flaggers ride
I seen everything you pointed out in this video, but also Jo was almost impaled with a wooden stake. I thought the had this issue at Hangtown a few years ago and they are supposed to have them back off the edge of the track? If it was my call I would say a minimum of 15 feet, the speed is too high for anything closer. And they should just use banners on the ground, you'll see it every lap on TV and in person.
@@tommylee9339 another fair point
Hear me out. Put lights on the front fender. If a section is under caution flash it yellow. If a red cross flag is out flash it red. Put a cover on it with an opening so the rider can see it but it won't get caked with dirt.
I actually brought up that idea in my last flagging video. You could also have a race director that is in each riders ear warning of potential crashes as well as letting lappers know when the leader is coming by and what not. It wouldn't have to be communication with their teams, just one channel with an ama official letting riders know what's going on. There's solutions out there. I think the GPS with the lights on the track is a good start but it won't fix how bad the flagging is.
Any updates on the rider that was taken by helicopter? Saw a video of it and the broadcast didn't show anything
@@kylebeach2316 I haven't heard anything yet. You usually won't hear much unless it's a top rider.
Coombs for smuck of the decade 🫏
The one next to vialle kills me, dude waving the flag next to or after a downed rider doesn't do anything man... if the riders are already seeing the downed rider at the same time or before the yellow flag you might as well not bother waving it. Really that situation belongs to the flagger in the previous section, assuming there was one that is. Also, deegan was sketchy coming through that section, he seems to just ignore yellow flags and uses zero caution. Like it's a blind hill and he didn't slow down at all, he just got lucky and happened to squeeze through, I've seen him do this numerous times.
@@colefredericks2869 in the Vialle situation, the flagger up the track would've been the one that was not doing great in the Webb situation. From what I could see on the broadcast, he was nowhere to be seen.
@@motofevermedia1 ahh yeah true true that is the same spot right there
I’ll be a flagger, I’m running on the track and standing where the bike is or near it pointing to push. Like they use to on the 90s. I don’t want any $ either
@@Familytube90 🫡
They also need more flaggers everywhere
Most definitely
One reason for this. MX Sports. They only want the money from the series. They dont care aɓout the rider
@@robertduster8508 I'm sure they care about the riders, just not enough to pay for flaggers
@@motofevermedia1lol that means they don’t care
@@RichPiana5Percent fair enough
Don’t sugar coat mx sports. They’re there to keep their fortune they’ve built on the sweat blood and broken bones of riders chasing their dreams. Many families go broke while they get richer. This sport has to change with the payouts…period! Yes! I lived that side of the fence and nothing makes sense because they have a monopoly so until another series starts mxsports will milk the riders dry. fax
People just are not very smart anymore.....that's the problem.
@@djpete8725 100%
Dude I've never even seen it be this bad, raced for over a decade, but this is a pro race and the guys literally can't even make a figure 8 motion to prevent the flag from rolling up, every single one these was either wadding it up or just holding it out and not waving, which if you're a rider, a non moving flag just blends in with the yellow markers all over the edge of the track
@@colefredericks2869 couldn't have said it better
True statement
Brrrraaaappppp
🫡
What a shame! Riders Union is long overdue
They have had reps over the years that would go before the promoters and present issues like track changes that are needed but nothing official like a union
The AMA has been doing this stupidity for as long as I can remember. They are so unprofessional.
It seems to be getting worse
If you got a ticket they make you a flagger. They probably don't pay them anything for one thing. it's not the first time I've seen flaggers messing up so come on let's give them some training. How about the time the girl walked across the front of the start last year in the SMX. Do they know what they're doing are they training these people to watch out be careful come on somebody's going to get hurt eventually.
@woundedtiger7547 I feel like the majority of these issues come down to just being properly trained and well practiced. For the most part all of these flaggers will only flag a national MAYBE once a year. They're probably more interested in watching the races than flagging properly.
N o volunteers, they are fans and they're mostly clueless about the reality of the sport. There's PLENTY of money to pay flaggers
I'd agree that they can pay their flaggers
We need trump to bring back common sense to America. We look like a country full of idiots😢
We are a country full of idiots 😭😪
That is the most stupid statement ever.