I know it's only a few minutes into the video and you're on the other side of the world, but "I can't believe it's been a whole year since I didn't sweep up leaves last year" is some extremely relatable content. Thank you for this as always.
Given the state of this vehicle prior to you having a tussle with it, that it failed on only those two - largely insignificant factors, is impressive. Nice work!
You owe the previous owner a big debt of gratitude. Without his ineptitude, think of how much less content you would have had! 😂 Also, I am impressed that the bearings weren’t ground into paste with one seal installed backwards and the other seal not installed at all.
Good to see your videos again. I have found that a large number of axles leaks on coil sprung land rovers are from the vent on the axle being plugged. I always remove them, clean the metal banjo bolt, and blow through the vent tube line. I have even found in most cases when it’s the pinion seal, that fixes it and the leak stops.
I've had success in 3D printing single-use seal drivers. They're generally only good for one seal, but I usually only have one seal to install. Far cheaper than purchasing a dedicated seal driver, especially for one-off jobs like this, and can save destroying a brand new seal, which we've all done at least once.
Masterclass in bearing replacement. Only additional suggestion is to lightly grease the splines on the half shaft before reinserting it to provide a little less chance of them damaging the oil seal if they touch. IF they touch, I did note how much care you took in shoving it back in. Best vids on YT, cheers, Will
I love all your shows most enjoyable. Here's a tip for you. When applying Loctite put it on one of the bolts then grab another one and inter twine the bolts around each other . This way you only use half the amount and you don't require that much either if you do then there is something wrong with design i feel.
I have been known to bend the lockwasher tab down onto the inside hub nut once pre load is set and then install the locknut (and bend the lock washer outwards). This often, though not always, prevents the hub nut from moving when installing the locknut.
i use SKF LGEP 2 grease for wheel bearings. my subaru eats rear wheel bearings and they last a lot longer with that stuff. its expensive, and OTT for the application, but works amazingly well. doubles the life of them. I also use a grease packing tool instead of hand packing, its a game changer.
the answer is much less grease than people realise. high temp no melt no shear modern greases provide the answer. grease extra to the bearing surface just sits there. a layer over the inner housing surface does stop rust. loctite 518 or 515 . rtv generally requires a thicker film thickness than two facing machined surfaces need.
24:45 “These stainless steel covers are cool, bring those back” OH GOD NO. I don’t know if it’s an issue in NZ but in Rust Belt, USA those sleeved lugnuts are HORRIBLE. Moisture gets in there and caused the Lugnut to rust swelling up the outer sleeve and you can’t get a socket on the worst of them, end up having to chisel every single cap off in the worst case. Ford seems to be the worst offender from my experience, but all American brands do this and it’s never pretty. I now live in the desert and I still see it from time to time.
What kind of odds are that? I just out of the blue decide to watch one of Geoffrey's other videos and "wallah", fresh offerings from the land of Croker. Awesome, always love a little bit of fresh digital entertainment from Geoffrey. Thank your Sir and thanks for the fresh material.. Cheers!
You can change the stub axle seal tracks on the series vehicles but not on them. They are part of the stub axle. Land rover yet again taking away good ideas.
2:59 ... Hey that hurts my feelings ;-) --- not that you even know who I am .... You're 2 channels are my favorite by the way. You are my editing idol!
Indeed. From what my American friends tell me, in many states vehicles never ever undergo routine inspection, which to me sounds like a recipe for disaster, but I must say, a mere six months between inspections seems like an awfully short interval, however, looking it up online, apparently in New Zealand that is only necessary for vehicles built before the year 2000...
No annual road worthy here in Western Australia. In fact, your car is only inspected when selling it or re-registering it, or the cops take an interest in that loud exhaust...
@Figulus yeah we don't have inspections in most states, and I've never found it to be a problem. A lot of the states who do have them only do emissions checks.
The method you described from the book seems a bit odd? The usual method of tightening up the bearings untill they no longer rotate with the wheel fitted to ensure the bearings have fully seated then back off untill it rotates freely but has no movement at the Outer edge of the rim is what I have used and would have thought would be the standard for all tapered wheel bearing hubs weather driven or not. The method in the manual is for a dual nut arrangement as it has but the idea of the end float is to compensate for the clearance the first nut has between the threads. Because the second nut pushes it away from the thread face that holds it in position. Think a static version of a newtons cradle. That sort of setting would have to introduce Rotor wobble and an easy 0.015" wobble on the road contact face if not more. A heads up regarding the empty space in a grease filled Spindle or Hub. Normally the idea is you want it to be filled with enough grease that if it gets hot enough for the grease to flow out easily that it be replenished. But in practice today if your hub is running that hot be it from brakes or load the grease is made to cope and wont washout and break down. The trick is the air gap however. Most problems stem from being quenched in a liquid or having liquid around the rotating lip seals. Rapid internal pressure changes that say crossing a river after 100 klms of travel or hot breaks soaking then hitting a puddle will cause a pressure change inside the sealed area. That strains the seals and water gets in. Hence the stuff like extended diff breathers. A small air gap is needed but a hot spindle should have a lesser amount of air inside purely to create more thermal mass to slow down any pressure change.
note to past self: watch further! DOH...sorry Layman thinking out loud; the lock washer is indexed to the stub axle. Why not set your end float and bend the washer in to lock the inner nut, apply the outer nut and bend another area of the washer out to lock that nut? Would that cause a problem elsewhere? i see you did this but before you "torque" the outer nut.
Apparently you can replace the rear hub grease seal with an oil seal from a Range Rover classic, then leave out the half shaft oil seal so the bearings run in oil, better for the bearings in the long term but messy when the rear hub seal fails.
You can do the same on the front. Lets the bearings and swivels share grease or oil. I changed from 1 shot in the swivels and grease in the bearings toi oil shared between the 2 as water ingress killed my swivels and cv's. Now I can change the fluid in them every few years and flush any moisture out. As far as I know the conversion to grease was an attempt to reduce the number of warranty claims for leaky hubs rather than an improvement in lubrication
As someone who just replaced their 6-year old battery just 2 hours ago, I laughed 😂 pretty hard when the battery lost its vigor when it was time to get reinspected. 👍😎👍
It blows my mind that you have to have the state check your car. In the US, you can drive a car in pretty much any condition. You just can't have a check engine light when you get emissions testing done every three years or so. Also, a cop will pull you over if they think the car is unsafe, for example missing lights, dragging parts, or driving on the highway with a flat. But I've seen cars driven without panels, a hood, windows, and doors! The idea of the state hiring a mechanic to inspect you car would been seen as a HUGE waste of money here.
Absolutely amazed by your videos on the channel👌. Though as a German and an engineer perhaps a torque wrench would help for those bearings (by datasheets) 😎
7:06 keep in mind that if you ever have to change that surface, but don't have the part (or in general any seal surface) there are options. The least complex and easiest to pull (with the caveat of having the luck of the right size available) is to sleeve the sealing surface. Thin sleeves come with a driver, you clean the surface where you want to put them on, give the place a good coating of slow acting metal glue (of your choice) and then drive the sleeve on. The more complex is to have that sealing surface ground down (on a lathe or rotary surface grinder) and then using the next size down of seal. I've done both to save either old, old parts or prohibitively expensive ones. Both are adequate methods if you find yourself in the pea hole.
Personally I find the box spanner for the hub nuts far superior to the (52MM?) socket- reason being front half shafts. Also I have one of them tyre levers and its brilliant for a plethora of jobs on a land rover just not removing the tyres :)
I've done this so many times, it's a job I love to hate. I personally use torque figures to set the bearings but I won't say what figures because they'll definitely be wrong in someone's opinion!
Keep voting for the nanny state, maybe go to quarterly or monthly inspections. Its all about safety, not fleecing the masses. That way we get more videos Lol.
Since it had been leaking .. including you had a little come out when you removed the half shaft .. Maybe check / top up the oil in the diff ? Even change it while you are at it ?
Great work. I actually have the same symptoms on my classic 130. I did the seal about a year ago and it's dripping again. 99% sure there's some debris or the stub has some wear on the mating surface. Thanks for your vids... I'm barely starting to put out some content myself, but it's mostly me silently working on my 300tdi, lol. @ 25:50"So that's me sorted for another six months."... NZ requires inspection and reg that often?
You’re kind of right. Show up with a clean and tidy car and they’ll treat you well. Show up with a filthy neglected heap and every 50/50 call will result in a fail.
Wof places are like that, get you to do all that work and when you get back to the workshop it almost feels a bit of a let down when they barely give a glance at the work you have done and slap the sticker on...
Wow.... WOF for older vehicles ever 6 months? Perhaps they should make them more stringent so that the vehicle has to achieve a standard suitable for a whole year! Or like some countries, 2 years!
FYI - I'm pretty sure you can't replace the spacer/seal surface on late series 3 and rrc/defender/disco stubs. Need to replace the whole thing as the surface is integral to the stub. I'd be delighted to be wrong though!
When you loosen the wheel nuts with the wheel already jacked up on a Landrover have to pull twice as hard on the wheel brace because the undoing torque is lost twisting the half shafts This is the concept they use inside the axles to stop the halfshafts snapping off road because they are springy.......
27:40 "...another six months." WOF inspection every SIX MONTHS ?? OMG, our jurisdiction went from annual (yearly) to biannual (two years). Other jurisdictions are only with each sale/purchase.
@@CROKERvsRover I'll write to your authorities suggesting that it be changed to Twice Weekly, every Tuesday and Friday. "One can never be too safe." Cheers.
@JxH Don’t bother. The MTA (mechanics and car dealers) are constantly lobbying the govt. to increase the frequency of inspections. It’s all about safety 🙃
I know it's only a few minutes into the video and you're on the other side of the world, but "I can't believe it's been a whole year since I didn't sweep up leaves last year" is some extremely relatable content. Thank you for this as always.
😂 I had to pause to chuckle for a good 30 seconds when he said this gem. Never stop Geoffrey (god I hope that’s the correct spelling).
Yeos, that's the correoct speolling
Given the state of this vehicle prior to you having a tussle with it, that it failed on only those two - largely insignificant factors, is impressive. Nice work!
Six monthly checks!!! That crazy. Nice to see you back at it. 😊
Every 6mo for vehicles registered before 2000
Annually for newer ones.
New vehicles don't need one for 3yrs
@@dmanww Seems a little harsh. You guys down there need to vote that kind of crap out of there....
@@seanfrank4158 "vote."
@@seanfrank4158 "vote"
@@seanfrank4158 We do but all of them don't really change anything...
between the backward hub seal, and the oil seal just falling out, it's just... ahhhhhh. beautiful.
Just the best RUclips Land Rover content there is, really!
Honestly, some of if not the best YT automotive content period (as far as this guy is concerned).
Any YT with Land Rover in the title I will watch, as i worked at the Solihull factory in the 1960s. Your score 10/10 . Cheers.
You owe the previous owner a big debt of gratitude. Without his ineptitude, think of how much less content you would have had! 😂
Also, I am impressed that the bearings weren’t ground into paste with one seal installed backwards and the other seal not installed at all.
Good to see your videos again. I have found that a large number of axles leaks on coil sprung land rovers are from the vent on the axle being plugged. I always remove them, clean the metal banjo bolt, and blow through the vent tube line. I have even found in most cases when it’s the pinion seal, that fixes it and the leak stops.
I've had success in 3D printing single-use seal drivers. They're generally only good for one seal, but I usually only have one seal to install. Far cheaper than purchasing a dedicated seal driver, especially for one-off jobs like this, and can save destroying a brand new seal, which we've all done at least once.
Don't forget to paint your sockets black to make them impact sockets 🤣
😂 Actually I do use old sockets on the impact gun.
Masterclass in bearing replacement. Only additional suggestion is to lightly grease the splines on the half shaft before reinserting it to provide a little less chance of them damaging the oil seal if they touch. IF they touch, I did note how much care you took in shoving it back in. Best vids on YT,
cheers, Will
Spent a fortune and loads of time fixing hub seal leaks on my defender, I feel your pain. Nice video.
"Everybody glues these things together..." aaaaannd my cuppa tea is all over my keyboard!
Not even 5 mins in!
The previous guy used all the loctite. The next one used all the grease. 😀
I love all your shows most enjoyable. Here's a tip for you. When applying Loctite put it on one of the bolts then grab another one and inter twine the bolts around each other . This way you only use half the amount and you don't require that much either if you do then there is something wrong with design i feel.
Excellent content and Intermittent reversing lights. Always enjoyable.
Love the vid - and clearest demo I have yet seen about how to set up the hub and bearings
I have been known to bend the lockwasher tab down onto the inside hub nut once pre load is set and then install the locknut (and bend the lock washer outwards). This often, though not always, prevents the hub nut from moving when installing the locknut.
I lived in NZ for ten years and remember the dance of the WOF well.
Never bring stainless steel covers on bolt's back the amount of times they've came off on me and have to get a socket. A size smaller is crazy
i use SKF LGEP 2 grease for wheel bearings. my subaru eats rear wheel bearings and they last a lot longer with that stuff. its expensive, and OTT for the application, but works amazingly well. doubles the life of them.
I also use a grease packing tool instead of hand packing, its a game changer.
Awesome mate, great to see you haven’t forgotten about us 😊
the answer is much less grease than people realise. high temp no melt no shear modern greases provide the answer. grease extra to the bearing surface just sits there. a layer over the inner housing surface does stop rust. loctite 518 or 515 . rtv generally requires a thicker film thickness than two facing machined surfaces need.
I have been having Discovery withdrawals. thank you
24:45 “These stainless steel covers are cool, bring those back”
OH GOD NO. I don’t know if it’s an issue in NZ but in Rust Belt, USA those sleeved lugnuts are HORRIBLE. Moisture gets in there and caused the Lugnut to rust swelling up the outer sleeve and you can’t get a socket on the worst of them, end up having to chisel every single cap off in the worst case. Ford seems to be the worst offender from my experience, but all American brands do this and it’s never pretty. I now live in the desert and I still see it from time to time.
What kind of odds are that? I just out of the blue decide to watch one of Geoffrey's other videos and "wallah", fresh offerings from the land of Croker. Awesome, always love a little bit of fresh digital entertainment from Geoffrey. Thank your Sir and thanks for the fresh material.. Cheers!
I'm pretty sure that display of rock crawling prowess puts you up to the 'second best 4x4 channel', just after MCM ;)
I always enjoy your videos. I hope you continue making new ones.
Land Rover “legendary” reliability means a regular stream of content from Crocker Vs Land Rover , a bonus for all us fans 🇬🇧👍🏼
“Cat anus hell” had me laughing. I hate the smell of gear oil. Love your work
You can change the stub axle seal tracks on the series vehicles but not on them. They are part of the stub axle. Land rover yet again taking away good ideas.
2:59 ... Hey that hurts my feelings ;-) --- not that you even know who I am .... You're 2 channels are my favorite by the way. You are my editing idol!
6 months inspections? Weird.
Indeed. From what my American friends tell me, in many states vehicles never ever undergo routine inspection, which to me sounds like a recipe for disaster, but I must say, a mere six months between inspections seems like an awfully short interval, however, looking it up online, apparently in New Zealand that is only necessary for vehicles built before the year 2000...
It's a huge pain in the ass let me tell ya
No annual road worthy here in Western Australia. In fact, your car is only inspected when selling it or re-registering it, or the cops take an interest in that loud exhaust...
@Figulus yeah we don't have inspections in most states, and I've never found it to be a problem. A lot of the states who do have them only do emissions checks.
@KR-hg8be Do you watch Just Rolled In 😅
The method you described from the book seems a bit odd?
The usual method of tightening up the bearings untill they no longer rotate with the wheel fitted to ensure the bearings have fully seated then back off untill it rotates freely but has no movement at the Outer edge of the rim is what I have used and would have thought would be the standard for all tapered wheel bearing hubs weather driven or not. The method in the manual is for a dual nut arrangement as it has but the idea of the end float is to compensate for the clearance the first nut has between the threads. Because the second nut pushes it away from the thread face that holds it in position. Think a static version of a newtons cradle. That sort of setting would have to introduce Rotor wobble and an easy 0.015" wobble on the road contact face if not more.
A heads up regarding the empty space in a grease filled Spindle or Hub. Normally the idea is you want it to be filled with enough grease that if it gets hot enough for the grease to flow out easily that it be replenished. But in practice today if your hub is running that hot be it from brakes or load the grease is made to cope and wont washout and break down. The trick is the air gap however. Most problems stem from being quenched in a liquid or having liquid around the rotating lip seals. Rapid internal pressure changes that say crossing a river after 100 klms of travel or hot breaks soaking then hitting a puddle will cause a pressure change inside the sealed area. That strains the seals and water gets in. Hence the stuff like extended diff breathers. A small air gap is needed but a hot spindle should have a lesser amount of air inside purely to create more thermal mass to slow down any pressure change.
The service manual specifically states to recheck the end float after fitting the lock nut. I aim for 1 thou at the end. 4 seems excessive.
Always done it your way , never checked end float once on a Landy in 40 years of ownership and never had a wheel bearing fail.
I love how satisfying it is to degrease parts.
note to past self: watch further! DOH...sorry
Layman thinking out loud; the lock washer is indexed to the stub axle. Why not set your end float and bend the washer in to lock the inner nut, apply the outer nut and bend another area of the washer out to lock that nut? Would that cause a problem elsewhere? i see you did this but before you "torque" the outer nut.
Always happy to see a new vid, thanks!
Apparently you can replace the rear hub grease seal with an oil seal from a Range Rover classic, then leave out the half shaft oil seal so the bearings run in oil, better for the bearings in the long term but messy when the rear hub seal fails.
You can do the same on the front. Lets the bearings and swivels share grease or oil. I changed from 1 shot in the swivels and grease in the bearings toi oil shared between the 2 as water ingress killed my swivels and cv's. Now I can change the fluid in them every few years and flush any moisture out. As far as I know the conversion to grease was an attempt to reduce the number of warranty claims for leaky hubs rather than an improvement in lubrication
As someone who just replaced their 6-year old battery just 2 hours ago, I laughed 😂 pretty hard when the battery lost its vigor when it was time to get reinspected. 👍😎👍
Just picked up another Rang Rover a 1990 this time. Got it for free and they were glad to get rid of it🤣 Love your videos , keep up the good work
It blows my mind that you have to have the state check your car. In the US, you can drive a car in pretty much any condition. You just can't have a check engine light when you get emissions testing done every three years or so. Also, a cop will pull you over if they think the car is unsafe, for example missing lights, dragging parts, or driving on the highway with a flat. But I've seen cars driven without panels, a hood, windows, and doors! The idea of the state hiring a mechanic to inspect you car would been seen as a HUGE waste of money here.
Absolutely amazed by your videos on the channel👌.
Though as a German and an engineer perhaps a torque wrench would help for those bearings (by datasheets) 😎
7:06 keep in mind that if you ever have to change that surface, but don't have the part (or in general any seal surface) there are options.
The least complex and easiest to pull (with the caveat of having the luck of the right size available) is to sleeve the sealing surface. Thin sleeves come with a driver, you clean the surface where you want to put them on, give the place a good coating of slow acting metal glue (of your choice) and then drive the sleeve on.
The more complex is to have that sealing surface ground down (on a lathe or rotary surface grinder) and then using the next size down of seal.
I've done both to save either old, old parts or prohibitively expensive ones. Both are adequate methods if you find yourself in the pea hole.
"Welcome back to the not a project car, car project". Thanks for the videos.
Another great tutorial. Had to laugh at the flat battery 🤣
Personally I find the box spanner for the hub nuts far superior to the (52MM?) socket- reason being front half shafts. Also I have one of them tyre levers and its brilliant for a plethora of jobs on a land rover just not removing the tyres :)
The stainless steel cover on the wheel nut aren’t cool when they mushroom
"I can't believe it's been a whole year since I didn't sweep up leaves last year." ;D
You should have told us we were getting to see some off road action today!! 😁
Great rebuild!
Depending on how excited you are in pulling on the hub determines the end float I always found.
The most annoying job I ever used do on my Series 2A.
I do love some Permatex No 3. Recently had success with Loctite 515 on a rocker cover gasket too.
You immediately know its Croker, when he uses a dial test indicator - great stuff mate!
Another great informative and interesting video, it makes my day when I see a new video from you.
Absolutely love your videos
Love it. I'm currently rebuilding my disco 2
By the time youd reversed up your drive the reverse light has stopped working.
🤔
Just started watching, yeaaah! Thanks for your Videos. Today you made my day a great one!!!! Thank you for your contest!
I've done this so many times, it's a job I love to hate. I personally use torque figures to set the bearings but I won't say what figures because they'll definitely be wrong in someone's opinion!
You usually don't have end play if you have a ton of grease which will break down quickly and have too much play.
Having to remove the half shaft for brake jobs sounds daunting.
man i just love how you do things. thanks for the upload man!
Nice job!
Every 6 months... Holy crap....
Uhh, not to tip off your local people, but your reverse lights also seem to have a mind of their own....
Keep voting for the nanny state, maybe go to quarterly or monthly inspections. Its all about safety, not fleecing the masses. That way we get more videos Lol.
Congrats on not turning this into a project! 😂
Since it had been leaking .. including you had a little come out when you removed the half shaft ..
Maybe check / top up the oil in the diff ? Even change it while you are at it ?
Cheers G. Thanks for sharing.
my favroute kiwi land rover nut ! another great video
Great work. I actually have the same symptoms on my classic 130. I did the seal about a year ago and it's dripping again. 99% sure there's some debris or the stub has some wear on the mating surface. Thanks for your vids... I'm barely starting to put out some content myself, but it's mostly me silently working on my 300tdi, lol. @ 25:50"So that's me sorted for another six months."... NZ requires inspection and reg that often?
Great work and you passed the test, the test must be cheap in NZ we have a once a year check in Ireland it's €55 which is close to $100 NZ (I think?)
Not really. Costs $80, which is 45 euro. NZ is a very expensive place to live.
Maybe they didn't even look on the re-inspection because anyone who had done that much work bringing this back would be unlikely to try and fool them.
You’re kind of right. Show up with a clean and tidy car and they’ll treat you well. Show up with a filthy neglected heap and every 50/50 call will result in a fail.
That's great stuff there mate. Love the work!
Wof places are like that, get you to do all that work and when you get back to the workshop it almost feels a bit of a let down when they barely give a glance at the work you have done and slap the sticker on...
I guess reversing lights aren't checked during the annual test then?
So, did you refill the differential and clean the breakpads…?
Wow video upload pace feels like it's on fire, lucky us
It's Friday wof Geoffrey is here
Frequent uploads? Woohoo!
Declined. 6 months? I’m gonna need more content before then. 😂
Sweet Jesus a test every 6 months - a bit much. Anyhow did you check the diff oil level ?
Have you been watching Vice Grip Garage by any chance ? . . . . . Probably not . 😅
Welcome back :)
Wow.... WOF for older vehicles ever 6 months? Perhaps they should make them more stringent so that the vehicle has to achieve a standard suitable for a whole year! Or like some countries, 2 years!
Using a dial indicator master of getting it spot.
Now not shouting just asking, why did you not replace the brake disc (rota) which looks er worn… 😁
the design of that seal, when you have to pass the whole axle through it, hoping not to damage it, is somewhat ill.
On the plus side, those brake pads won’t ever wear out now that they’ve had a good oiling. 😊
That looks like way too much grease... You'll want to check temps after driving..
23:12 i should call her… 😂 love the content ❤
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you uploaded a new vid and the whole world ground to a halt. 😂
😂 Land Rover electrics aren’t that bad!
sorted for another 6months?? Twice yearly WOF??? ouch. I do love the setup here in South Australia.. no WOFs - ever.
FYI - I'm pretty sure you can't replace the spacer/seal surface on late series 3 and rrc/defender/disco stubs. Need to replace the whole thing as the surface is integral to the stub. I'd be delighted to be wrong though!
Correct
When you loosen the wheel nuts with the wheel already jacked up on a Landrover have to pull twice as hard on the wheel brace because the undoing torque is lost twisting the half shafts
This is the concept they use inside the axles to stop the halfshafts snapping off road because they are springy.......
I like a few designs from landrover , but don't like the cars , removable hubs and the like are a good idea
2 videos less than a month apart. You're starting to spoil us.
Great as always!
How could you let that crusty brake caliper go back on mate ?
Presume you put oil back in the axle?
Problem with the reverse indicators??
27:40 "...another six months." WOF inspection every SIX MONTHS ?? OMG, our jurisdiction went from annual (yearly) to biannual (two years). Other jurisdictions are only with each sale/purchase.
Yeah, it’s pretty ridiculous.
@@CROKERvsRover I'll write to your authorities suggesting that it be changed to Twice Weekly, every Tuesday and Friday.
"One can never be too safe."
Cheers.
@JxH Don’t bother. The MTA (mechanics and car dealers) are constantly lobbying the govt. to increase the frequency of inspections. It’s all about safety 🙃
You don't like RTV? LR themselves us it, like on the LT230 TC. Used correctly it's better than a paper gasket.