This is one of the few good videos here on RUclips that actually explains very precisely and in detail what a perfect piano recording is really all about. Many thanks!
Super flattered! The goal is to grow my channel to a size that makes the video quality frankly disappointing. hehe Stay tuned. I'm planning a follow up to this video to be released this month.
Fantastic video - so full of information and knowledge. Really helpful...and just what I was looking for. Appreciated the nod towards F.C at the end. Totally agree and it made me smile. 🙏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💜🎹
Personally, I loved the analogy you spoke with flashlights and microphones. It just goes to show that more often than not, the little changes of the set up with result in a big difference. Thanks for the video! You've earned yourself a new subscriber :)
When I thought, “what piece should I use for this video” this particular Prelude jumped into my inner ear. I hadn’t played it before but I learned it because it just seemed appropriate. Thank you for watching and for the kind words!
Dude! This is the only (or one of the very few) video on RUclips which actually sounds good! Others show their stuff and it sounds just bad! Very beautiful and natural sound, it really does "bloom".
Thanks so much! I also had trouble finding piano recording videos that I actually wanted to emulate...hence a video when I finally felt I had something to offer.
took me a few days to find this video. I am looking to set up a similar recording room in my new place for future personal or student recordings. This is fantastic, thank you!
I really enjoyed your brief but informative explanation of what goes on in your studio. I'm really starting modestly to mic pianos, and this helped give me an idea of where to start. I looked up those mic prices, so I'm hoping that more than a few piano lessons can help me to achieve something close to the beautifully recorded sound that you were able to achieve.
Best of luck! It took me a while, both to learn the best procedures and to amass equipment that was up to the task. If possible, it’s best to save up and get good stuff. That’ll help you avoid frustration and disappointment.
Hello Ben, Kudos on the Chickering! Jonas Chickering was the Tesla of pianos. I'm also a piano tech here in Las Vegas and I was paid to be an audio engineer in 1966 and I've been recording ever since. (I do the Steinway recordings for a world famous composer) Just wanted you to know that you are dead on with the Ribbons and the Chickering. I hope I don't meet you... we'd talk for days!!! Great Job.
Hi Bob! Yeah...that would be bad if we met. 😁 I appreciate that someone so versed as you feels I’m on the right track. It is a “track” though, that I admit I’m still on-striving for the perfect piano recording. In fact, in the scant month or so since recording this video I’ve made some advances (inspired by the process of laying out my thoughts for this video). In short, I’ve moved the proximate mics a bit and added one in the middle of the piano BELOW the soundboard. That new mic-I’m using an AEA R84-contributes nicely to warmth and sustain. I might have to make another video. 🤯 Mind dishing a bit about your approach. If it’s a trade secret, hey, I get it. 😉
@@insidepianos No real secrets here. My go-to is 414s XY. However, I have a friend at Capital Records that convinced me that 1 ribbon (Mono) piano fits easily with several other musicians in the mix as long as there are room mics. I had a 1938 Chickering that was re-built by Bob Messenslager in the mid 70s. He had that piano screaming! Any sound I wanted was right there from the pppppp to FFFFF!!! From dark and moody to brass band. All in the touch of the player. Hopefully I'll get a chance to get back east. I'd love to visit. I used to live in Wilmington NC. Thank you for your reply. Musically yours, Bob
Thank you for the excellent video. I am starting to record upright piano in my studio. I'd love and thrilled to know some techniques if you can pls do a video for uprights! Thanks you very much!
Hi Ben, Thanks for posting this video. It's super helpful. I was wondering though, what you you use if you were in a nice recital or concert hall? Do you also know what you would use with the piano if you were recording with a Classical vocalist. Repertoire would be mostly the art song. Schubert, Schumann etc. if you have any advice I would appreciate it. Best, Les
Ribbon mic sounds round and slow (no hammers, no attack, no peaks) and very warm. Together with ambient mic It sounds like one romantic body. Sound is full of waving mid-tones. Ideal for Chopin.
That's why I love those ribbons! You described it perfectly. Actually, since recording this video I've added another (an AEA R84) below the piano. Turns out there was more warmth and sustain to mine.
Thank your very much for your video. I am currently investigating the possibilities of live streaming classical music with piano and voice. And obviously the piano part is the tricky one, especially if the room isn't to big. This video was very helpful in estimating how many mics one should put up. Thank you
That's excellent. Glad I could help! Coincidentally, classical singers are the bread and butter of my studio. That's difficult-to-record TIMES TWO! I'll be curious to know how many mics you use and how for your streaming projects.
@@insidepianos Just applied your suggestions and it sounds really good for recording. Good stereo imaging by the ribbon mics (used a couple of virtual Royer SF12 for this) and the MS pair provides enough "air" without digging in too much into the close pair (this one was done with virtual Schoeps MK4 and AKG C414 in Fig-8 pattern) .
Your three videos are outstanding! Thanks so much for sharing the logic behind what you are doing; flashlight, elephant etc... Beautiful playing, to boot! Have you have tried the Earthworks piano mics? Any thoughts on their pros/cons?
Aw, thanks, Syd! I have not tried the Earthworks mics myself but have heard them plenty of times. They have the obvious feature of being so visually discret. I anticipate that I'd prefer them for jazz over classical. They tend to have that "sampled" sound, if you know what I mean. I hope to get some more recording-centered content out soon. Stay tuned, and thanks for watching!
Hi there! I recently purchased the Zoom H5 recorder and was wondering if anyone has experience on how to position it to record from a grand piano? Much appreciated 🙏☺️
I like your video. Thanks for making it. High quality content along with production value and great piano playing. Your Chickering is voiced very nicely. The sound your getting reminds me of some of my favorite classical recordings i heard waaay back when. Dis i miss which reverb you’re using? I like mid/side recordings; they almost always present a pleasing result with either LDC or ribbon mics but i agree that ribbons are the way to go. If i May suggest to you and your audience, try a RND 542 tape emulator on the piano mics tracks to bring a very pleasing result, too. The 542 is a tape emulation device that work very well with all stringed instruments. After all, most of our favorite piano recordings were made on tape (reel to reel). Thanks again!
I love the suggestion. Will take to heart and explore that option. I’m with you on the vintage sound enthusiasm. My studio logo is actually meant to harken back to those awesome mid-century recordings. I use Waves IR1 but not so much the actual sampled spaces. I just end up tweaking their Hall reverb most of the time. (I go over this is my Mixing video.) Thanks for the kind words. Clearly you’ve thought about things piano quite a bit!
A very fine tutorial (if that's what you're aiming for)! What keeps me wondering every time I see a grand piano recording set-up is that the lid stays on the piano!? There is no argument here when its purpose is to project the sound to the audience, but that is not an issue when the instrument is recorded, or? Why not use the full potential of the piano by taking off the lid and letting the instrument breathe?
Hey there, loved every minute of this video! Neatly packed, valuable information (great playing too 😉), everything that I was looking for. I have two questions though: Firstly: What microphones are the ones you use for the room micing? And secondly: If I were to buy a pair of Nuvo N8's and the two room mics, what else would I have to get to complete the setup? Besides the mic stands of course. I'm assuming an audio interface would be missing, correct? In another one of your replies, I saw that you mentioned using the Focusrite ISA828. That's a bit out of my price range and I'm sure it's way more than what I would need anyways. Do you have any recommendations for interfaces that should also do the trick in this setup ("this setup" meaning the two Nuvo N8s, the two room mics and the AEA R84 as added in your second video)? I am an absolute amateur at this, so please excuse me if the questions seem redundant. Nonetheless, I'm a firm believer in "buy once, buy well", therefore I am not looking to cut corners with gear. Hope this message finds you well. Sending many greetings from Germany ☺
Thanks for the kind words. The room mics are Miktek C7s. A complete set up would be mics (plus stands and cables), an audio interface, and a computer. Focusrite makes a totally decent budget-friendly audio interface called the Scarlett. Also, if you were using just two mics you could save money by getting an interface with just 2 channels (or 4 if you wanted rather than 8)-since in some sense you’re paying for the channels. There are specific ones that are made for ribbon mics you might want to look at. I hope this helps!
Hi, Ben, thanks for the good video. According to your mic setup (see 9:24), you pan the high register of the keyboard (aka melody part) to -30, i.e. LEFT 30. And the bass register to +35, i.e. RIGHT 30. QUESTION: Is this panning not confusing and frustrating for the listener (especially if he/she is a piano player) because the high register will appear left, bass register will appear right and this is quite opposite of what the player hears in reality, when sitting in front of the piano keyboard?
Usually it is done this way in classical music, from the perspective of the audience. I also had this question many times, because in jazz/pop, the high register is from the pianist's point of view (on the right).
The stand is put out by On-Stage. It works well but just make sure you want it in your space because it takes up quite a bit of it. It's not telescoping. Also, it's not a fault of the stand but you really don't want to bonk your head on the lead counterbalance! Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching!
great video! i'll be recording cello and piano this summer and this video has given me some really helpful tips. unfortunately i only have one N8, and was planning on using it on the cello. If you had to choose between a pair of KM183 omnis or AT4050 LDC set to omni for piano spots, what would you pick?
Glad you got some ideas from my video. I'd expect the N8 to sound great on cello. Though I've not used those particular mics I would expect the choice to be between warm (AT4050s) and (super detailed). If you really like the piano you're working with the 183s ought to do well. If there's any unwanted brightness, damper sizzle, etc. the ATs would likely de-emphasize those unwanted sounds. Another thought: You may know this but omni mics are not susceptible to the proximity effect. This can be advantageous when close miking a piano since the mics often need to be quite close (especially when not wanting to reject a different instrument in the room. Cardioid mics (especially of the LD type) can sound "tubby" in this situation. Maybe this at least gives you some things to listen for as you A/B. Good luck!
Thank you so much for all the information! How would you recommend recording with only one mic in an untreated room? I have the zoom h1n which actually has two small condenser microphones in an xy pair and am recording my Kawaii Grand piano in my house.
You’re very welcome, Jesse! The main parameter you’ll be playing with is distance. If you have the ability to add reverb in post you might try getting fairly close in such that you don’t hear the room so much. Then the reverb becomes your pseudo room mics. I’d also experiment w height. It’s all about listening. Good luck!
I am planning an experiment with the Blumlein SetUp on my grand piano. For this I need 2 (low budget) microphones with 8s characteristic. At first I was looking for large diaphragm microphones until people in a forum also recommended ribbon microphones. You are also a friend of them, as you said in the video. These are considered warm and natural, but usually only go up to 15 or 16 kHz, so treble and harmonics are hardly picked up. Aren't these highs missing in the recording? Doesn't it sound too dull?
Björn, you raise a good point. My AEA R8 ribbon mics start to drop off around 5KHz with very little signal above 15kHz. I use EQ to make sure there's enough brilliance in the recording. Also, my room mics are LD condensors which helps supplement anything the ribbons are neglecting. This week, I will release a video that will include a sample of how my ribbons sound by themselves. Maybe that will help you since it sounds like you will be just using 2 mics in total. I would say to keep in mind that with condensors (perhaps especially at the budget range) will introduce more transients than ribbons do. So, even if you're happier with the very-upper spectrum, you may be less happy with the overall sound of the recording. Adding to the complexity of your decision is that budget ribbon mics might be especially bad at the very thing you fear. A friend of mine has the sE VR1 and while it is a good mic for the price it has noticeably less "luster" than my pricey AEA mics. I would try to get a look at any mic's frequency response chart that you're considering. aE's VR2 ($500 US) goes up to 18kHz I know. Gosh, I hope this helps!
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
It sounds like you have some nice equipment, in addition to a nice piano. Close to the piano I really like my AEA N8s. I would think another NT 2000 could pair nicely with the one your have as room mics. There are so many other good options that I've not had a chance to try personally, but my videos feature the mics I've arrived at. I would just say to keep doing your research to inform your decision. Thanks for watching!
I think of the 3:1 rule as pertaining to a more localized sound source than the piano, e.g. guitar cab, wind instrument. With piano I think of the close mics each being responsible for the portion of the piano they are positioned by. I'm mainly occupied with covering the bases, as it were. That said, the two mics pictured in this video are spaced well beyond 3X their distance from the soundboard. So in that sense I am abiding by the principle. Thanks for watching!
Great video. Is it possible to describe how do you adjust the setting on DAW also? ( reverb and eq maybe) I understand it could be differ by people’s preference but is there a general direction for grand piano recording? Because I found it trouble me the most now.
j Yang Thank you! Not only is everyone’s taste different but so are reverb plug-ins. I use Waves IR-1, btw, which I like. I think the main thing I would recommend regarding reverb is to be sure to back off the dry gain, especially on what I call the proximate mics. That will give the impression of distance from the piano and allow the reverb to dominate a little more. Regarding EQ, I use that to back off the bass of the proximate mics-not enough to weaken it (we like bass) but enough to take any boominess that has resulted from the proximity effect. With the room mics I sometimes add a bit of low end since they are further from the piano and therefore emphasize the high-end frequencies. This will be especially necessary if you use small diaphragm mics. I hope this helps. Thanks for watching!
Another great video. Been loking for mics to record an upright piano, tried the soyez 013 fet small condenser mic, and the are to honestly, to sharp, and detailed. Any recommendation for mic on a upright piano? Would 2 nuvo n8 be a good choice for an upright?
Small diaphragm condensers are the worst/best? at picking up unwanted detail in a piano. Large diaphragm condensers can be worth trying since they are less detailed but still... I'm confident you'd be mmmuch happier with a pair of Nuvo N8s for any piano recording you'll do. I'm not saying they are the only excellent piano mics but they allowed me to make the first piano recordings that I was actually proud of. (And close to two years later they're almost paid off!!!) :)
Thank you for answering, im relative new to setting up mics, and recording live instrument, but I will definitive have those mics in mind, been reading a little about them also after watching your video, and they might be a very good choice:) thanks
I consider buying the Neumann U87. Do you think it's one of the best mics for Classical piano? When using several mics do they have to be in the same quality or can one be a first class and one only be a middle class? My old is the Rode Nt4 and Maybe I like to use it in s Stereo Setup with the Neumann U87...
You cannot go wrong with a U87. Unfortunately I don't own any myself. But I was hired recently to mix a piano project using them as room mics. Love them!
Thanks so much! Those Rode M5's are small-diaphragm condenser mics, using a small drum-like membrane to create the signal. (You can probably see it just beyond the mesh on the tip.) Ribbon mics use a corrugated ribbon to create the signal. The strength of small diaphragm condensers are their detail and high SPF rating. Their potential weakness is a relatively weak bass response and too-much detail (depending on the context). Nice instrument collection, by the way!
You're so welcome, Hoàn! I use a Focusrite ISA828 fitted with the D/A converter. It runs through a Focusrite Sapphire Pro40 as the interface but the preamps and conversion are done by the ISA828.
And ... by the way: what's the title of that wonderful chopin-song?? The repeated part is very beautiful ...(Must be something in B major ... but I can't find any on the web) .... ah ... just found it with the SoundHound-App: it's Chopin prelude op 28 no 11 :-)
@@insidepianos Yes .. as I wrote above ..... meanwhile I've got the score ... though it's just one page ... too hard for me ... I am still trying ... jesus !!! ... 5 sharps too many :-( .... B major ..... couldn't he have written it in C?
This is very helpful, Ben! I just subscribed to your channel. One question: assuming that the sound reaching the room mic is a bit delayed, do you compensate for that in post? Or do you leave it like that? Arguments can be made both ways. If I understand this correctly, when the proximate mics are dominant in the mix, the room mics can offer a bit of natural reverb; but when the room mics are dominant, then a delayed heavy reverb may sound unnatural. Thank you!
Great question! And thanks for subscribing. I'll be posting a new video right after responding to a few comments. I also have some other in the pipeline soon to be released. Back to your question: I find in my size room (not a concert hall) syncing the proximate mics to the room mics isn't always necessary but is sometimes is preferable to my ear. What I'll typically do is make a few-second recording in which I play note #44 at a forte dynamic. Then I'll line up the room mics with the bump made in the treble proximate mic. If I'm able to do this in one "skootch" I can undo and redo to see if I like the difference it makes. Usually, I find it cleans things up a bit.
@@insidepianos Hi! Sorry, I just saw your question. Anything related to piano recording interests me. New advancements in piano technology, such as the composite action you talked about, would be great, too.
Question.... I finally tried audacity reverb and it sounded pretty great. But there were digital artifacts. For super simple Bach 🎹 recording, what would you recommend for reverb? Assuming an interface/preamp with digital and/analogue send/receive.....
@@insidepianos thanks bro. So it's nice to listen to a reverb while playing the piano with headphones, a.k.a. live monitor. Are you able to do that? The obvious option for me would to use the send/return on my new Audient id24 interface which comes in two weeks. But I am going to guess that if a DAW plug in is doing the reverb, I am not going to hear it unless I am listening to the interface DtoA (call computer output). I don't think that audacity has that monitoring feature. What DAW do you use?
It looks like cubase pro has all the monitoring set ups that you get in a recoding studio, so i just bought it (330 Eur) and your ir reverb suggestion. Thanks for teaching me what ir stands for. That helps )))
I just want to say one more thing, on the spiritual level ))).... So I get a good DAW, but what about the preamps/AtoD? ....So I get a good "interface" box, but what about the mics? So i get some good mics, but what about the piano? So I fix my piano.... Doah!!!!!!!! My problem is that i need to learn to read Bach!!!!!! ))))). And the weakest link of the chain is...... Yes, me, the player. E.g. give Johann a crusty old harpsichord, it will be alright.
😂 Well, personally I like being the weak link in the chain. It beats being limited by one’s tools. I use Logic which has a monitoring feature. It also has some pretty decent on board reverbs I sometimes tap into.
Thanks a lot. I have a 200 year old stand up piano (W. Biese, wooden harp, A 372hz), and I would like to record it. I only play Bach. And I only sight read it (very slow). No trills, no pedal. So I am looking for this super honest, simple relatively tight sound, no room. As I am writing, I am returning a hand help tascam recorder that was horrible. Your range of mics makes a lot of sense (I was a prof studio engineer in 1988). So much has changed... ..question, assuming I use some of the condenser mics or ribbon mic that you laid out, what does one use these days for simple 2 or four track recording (that can provide pre amps/phantom power as needed for the mics in your video)? Again, it is just for that one piano, just for Bach and I am looking for 100% "mic" vs signal processing....
That sounds like a super rare and interesting piano. Down the line, when you get it recorded, I would love to hear it! I can see how a hand held unit would not satisfy you. I would suggest a basic setup consisting of mics--->preamps/interface--->computer-based DAW (digital audio workstation). Perhaps we've covered the mics, plus your earlier experience can inform that. For the interface (yes, w phantom power), I can definitely recommend Focusrite. Their pro-sumer level Saffire series is really quite good. I've had the opportunity to hear it compared with the top of the line ISA series, which I use. The ISA is better but not worlds better. If you do go with ribbon mics, be aware that the lower-tier preamps will likely need a boost in the signal via a seperate unit such as AEA's Couldlifter. I recommend a computer-based DAW for the ease of editing and file handling. Also, you may find that you would appreciate a bit of compression and normalization which won't color the sound, just make the dynamics more realistic and at a similar level to commercial releases. That's a piece of cake on a DAW. The best news is that because you'd be asking so little from this program a free one would suffice. If you have a Mac, Garageband would do. If not, Audacity is just one of the freeware DAWs you could look into. Hope this helps! Thanks for watching.
@@insidepianos thank you dear friend. I ordered a focusrite preamp (a to d converter) just now... a big thank you ben. so much to say, but maybe thank you is enough. ...in short, when i was 20, 1988, i took a loan to buy a synclavier (new england digital) daw for 169K. two year later pro tools arrived, delivered the same for 5K, and n.e.d. was bankrupt. so i will skip the detail, but suffice it to say that your recommendation of a free daw, and focusrite preamp, is very, very, positive.
@@thomasschwarz1973 It pains me to hear your story of what happened to you in the late 80s. Wow, what disruptive technology Pro Tools was! In short, you are very welcome. Sounds like you are on your way to making some cool recordings. Good luck!
@@insidepianos Hi again, here is the first pass ruclips.net/video/ZL_mdLrSEuM/видео.html Thanks again my friend. I went with a focusrite pre called 2i2 which came with headphones, a condener mike and an xlr chord. But the real irony.... ....it comes with a free "pro tools first" )))))) i just have one channel, so i am using audacity as you suggested, but i did install the protools.... ..unreal. anyway, i am so thankful to you for the awesome suggestion. here is the package i got for 200 Eur www.thomann.de/intl/focusrite_scarlett_2i2_studio_3rd_gen.htm Again, thank you so much.
@@thomasschwarz1973 Thanks so much for sharing! Those Scarlett pres are a good way to go. And with Pro Tools you have pretty much all you need! Or continue with Audacity if you prefer. Your piano's sound is captivating--lute-like. As cute as that little girl is :) maybe you could include a pic of your unusual piano on future recordings. Also, if you could add a second mic and pan them into a stereo field that would significantly improve your recordings. Lastly, experimenting with compression or normalization would bring the volume up so you don't need to crank the stereo to hear it. Glad you're up and running though! The rest is just tweaking.
Yeah...I’m sure he would have bristled at that. I, however, like being in nickname basis with my favorite composers. Also, thanks for watching to the end!
Thanks for your Vlog. I refer your setup. I use the "SmartRig+, stereo, Max level" "SUGAR DM-830A microphones x2 ", "DSLR Canon 5D3 ,mic preamp about +1/4 " This could be done on video and audio at the same file. I just changed the mov of file to mp4 on computer. ruclips.net/video/DQIKlRLWm9A/видео.html
@@insidepianos I’m doing tests to optimize the recordings of our grand piano. So far XY with small condensors inside piano combined with large condensors in wide stereo pair, as room microphones, gives the best result. Will try large condensors with angulation to get a wider area recorded.
@@staffansoderstrom2023 I do like the wide stereo pair, as I mentioned. I guess you tried the others? You could also try using the small diagraphm mics as the proximate mics. It's a LOT of playing around when recording pianos. Hate to admit it but I've actually revised my approach since making the video, mainly with respect to the placement of the treble proximate mic. I'm actually aiming it at the bridge (despite what I said in the video), finding it gets more bloom of the sound- and is less "plinky". I might have to do a follow up, maybe also going a bit into the mixing aspect. It truly is endless but our love of the instrument compels us, right? :) Feel free to send me samples. What kind of piano are you working with?
Just a quick PS - If your large-diaphragm condensors have a figure-of-8 option you could place them where you like the X/Y pair ro create a Blumlein pattern.
Видеоклипы
This is one of the few good videos here on RUclips that actually explains very precisely and in detail what a perfect piano recording is really all about. Many thanks!
Much appreciated, Björn!
The flashlight and the images were brilliant representations. Awesome video.
Best instructional video from a channel this size I've ever seen. Hope to put it to good use soon!
Super flattered! The goal is to grow my channel to a size that makes the video quality frankly disappointing. hehe
Stay tuned. I'm planning a follow up to this video to be released this month.
Finally a recording guide video with a great sound! Great work
Fantastic video - so full of information and knowledge. Really helpful...and just what I was looking for. Appreciated the nod towards F.C at the end. Totally agree and it made me smile. 🙏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💜🎹
I'm feelin' the love. Thanks so much! More of "Freddie Boy" on my latest video.
Very good video explaining all important things about piano recording!
Personally, I loved the analogy you spoke with flashlights and microphones. It just goes to show that more often than not, the little changes of the set up with result in a big difference. Thanks for the video! You've earned yourself a new subscriber :)
I’m honored! Even though I don’t record analog I don’t let that deprive me of a good analogy.
Thanks A LOT for the detailed explanation.
This video is simply brilliant. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much! I hope you're getting the results you want.
I have some more recording-related videos planned.
Love the explanations, especially the elephant. ;D Trying to get the most out of my VSL synchron pianos VST.
I just love the preludes by Chopin. You play well. And a really nice demonstration of the different microphones! Thank you
When I thought, “what piece should I use for this video” this particular Prelude jumped into my inner ear. I hadn’t played it before but I learned it because it just seemed appropriate.
Thank you for watching and for the kind words!
Dude! This is the only (or one of the very few) video on RUclips which actually sounds good! Others show their stuff and it sounds just bad! Very beautiful and natural sound, it really does "bloom".
Thanks so much! I also had trouble finding piano recording videos that I actually wanted to emulate...hence a video when I finally felt I had something to offer.
I agree and would only add how well those microphones compliment one another
Awesome video! This really help me with recording my jury for uni
Fantastic! Glad to help!
11inches is good for condensers. Also 3 to1 works well for keeping image central.
took me a few days to find this video. I am looking to set up a similar recording room in my new place for future personal or student recordings. This is fantastic, thank you!
Thanks, Jack! I hope you're getting the results you wanted!
I really enjoyed your brief but informative explanation of what goes on in your studio. I'm really starting modestly to mic pianos, and this helped give me an idea of where to start. I looked up those mic prices, so I'm hoping that more than a few piano lessons can help me to achieve something close to the beautifully recorded sound that you were able to achieve.
Best of luck! It took me a while, both to learn the best procedures and to amass equipment that was up to the task. If possible, it’s best to save up and get good stuff. That’ll help you avoid frustration and disappointment.
Hello Ben, Kudos on the Chickering! Jonas Chickering was the Tesla of pianos. I'm also a piano tech here in Las Vegas and I was paid to be an audio engineer in 1966 and I've been recording ever since. (I do the Steinway recordings for a world famous composer)
Just wanted you to know that you are dead on with the Ribbons and the Chickering. I hope I don't meet you... we'd talk for days!!! Great Job.
Hi Bob! Yeah...that would be bad if we met. 😁 I appreciate that someone so versed as you feels I’m on the right track. It is a “track” though, that I admit I’m still on-striving for the perfect piano recording. In fact, in the scant month or so since recording this video I’ve made some advances (inspired by the process of laying out my thoughts for this video). In short, I’ve moved the proximate mics a bit and added one in the middle of the piano BELOW the soundboard. That new mic-I’m using an AEA R84-contributes nicely to warmth and sustain. I might have to make another video. 🤯 Mind dishing a bit about your approach. If it’s a trade secret, hey, I get it. 😉
@@insidepianos No real secrets here. My go-to is 414s XY. However, I have a friend at Capital Records that convinced me that 1 ribbon (Mono) piano fits easily with several other musicians in the mix as long as there are room mics. I had a 1938 Chickering that was re-built by Bob Messenslager in the mid 70s. He had that piano screaming! Any sound I wanted was right there from the pppppp to FFFFF!!! From dark and moody to brass band. All in the touch of the player. Hopefully I'll get a chance to get back east. I'd love to visit. I used to live in Wilmington NC. Thank you for your reply. Musically yours, Bob
Thank you for the excellent video. I am starting to record upright piano in my studio. I'd love and thrilled to know some techniques if you can pls do a video for uprights! Thanks you very much!
Great channel, really interesting stuff! You got yourself a new fan!
Thanks, Headless Mary! More content soon to come!!
Hi Ben, Thanks for posting this video. It's super helpful. I was wondering though, what you you use if you were in a nice recital or concert hall? Do you also know what you would use with the piano if you were recording with a Classical vocalist. Repertoire would be mostly the art song. Schubert, Schumann etc. if you have any advice I would appreciate it. Best, Les
Cool! Thank you for this video
You are most welcome!
thank you for sharing!
You’re very welcome!
SO helpful, thank you!!!
You’re SO welcome! ;-)
Great video!
Glad you got something from it!!
Ribbon mic sounds round and slow (no hammers, no attack, no peaks) and very warm. Together with ambient mic It sounds like one romantic body. Sound is full of waving mid-tones. Ideal for Chopin.
That's why I love those ribbons! You described it perfectly. Actually, since recording this video I've added another (an AEA R84) below the piano. Turns out there was more warmth and sustain to mine.
Thank your very much for your video. I am currently investigating the possibilities of live streaming classical music with piano and voice. And obviously the piano part is the tricky one, especially if the room isn't to big. This video was very helpful in estimating how many mics one should put up. Thank you
That's excellent. Glad I could help! Coincidentally, classical singers are the bread and butter of my studio. That's difficult-to-record TIMES TWO!
I'll be curious to know how many mics you use and how for your streaming projects.
@@insidepianos I will keep you posted!
Thanks for your video! I plan to use your lecture here in setting up my Pianoteq microphone setup.
You're very welcome!
@@insidepianos Just applied your suggestions and it sounds really good for recording. Good stereo imaging by the ribbon mics (used a couple of virtual Royer SF12 for this) and the MS pair provides enough "air" without digging in too much into the close pair (this one was done with virtual Schoeps MK4 and AKG C414 in Fig-8 pattern) .
Your three videos are outstanding! Thanks so much for sharing the logic behind what you are doing; flashlight, elephant etc... Beautiful playing, to boot! Have you have tried the Earthworks piano mics? Any thoughts on their pros/cons?
Aw, thanks, Syd!
I have not tried the Earthworks mics myself but have heard them plenty of times. They have the obvious feature of being so visually discret.
I anticipate that I'd prefer them for jazz over classical. They tend to have that "sampled" sound, if you know what I mean.
I hope to get some more recording-centered content out soon. Stay tuned, and thanks for watching!
I record a small choir, I'd like to know what you think about high pass filters on choral recordings. Thanks.
Hi there! I recently purchased the Zoom H5 recorder and was wondering if anyone has experience on how to position it to record from a grand piano? Much appreciated 🙏☺️
I like your video. Thanks for making it. High quality content along with production value and great piano playing.
Your Chickering is voiced very nicely. The sound your getting reminds me of some of my favorite classical recordings i heard waaay back when. Dis i miss which reverb you’re using? I like mid/side recordings; they almost always present a pleasing result with either LDC or ribbon mics but i agree that ribbons are the way to go. If i May suggest to you and your audience, try a RND 542 tape emulator on the piano mics tracks to bring a very pleasing result, too. The 542 is a tape emulation device that work very well with all stringed instruments. After all, most of our favorite piano recordings were made on tape (reel to reel).
Thanks again!
I love the suggestion. Will take to heart and explore that option. I’m with you on the vintage sound enthusiasm. My studio logo is actually meant to harken back to those awesome mid-century recordings.
I use Waves IR1 but not so much the actual sampled spaces. I just end up tweaking their Hall reverb most of the time. (I go over this is my Mixing video.)
Thanks for the kind words. Clearly you’ve thought about things piano quite a bit!
now this might be to late for a quiestion but how would you change recording set up if you are in a church
Hello, What is The name of piece at the end of the Video? Thank you.
thanks for the video! I am about to invest in some good mics cause my Yamaha C3 deserves them... and so does Chopin!
Yes, you both deserve the best! Good luck!
A very fine tutorial (if that's what you're aiming for)! What keeps me wondering every time I see a grand piano recording set-up is that the lid stays on the piano!? There is no argument here when its purpose is to project the sound to the audience, but that is not an issue when the instrument is recorded, or? Why not use the full potential of the piano by taking off the lid and letting the instrument breathe?
What preamp did you use for this recording?
Hey there, loved every minute of this video! Neatly packed, valuable information (great playing too 😉), everything that I was looking for.
I have two questions though:
Firstly: What microphones are the ones you use for the room micing?
And secondly: If I were to buy a pair of Nuvo N8's and the two room mics, what else would I have to get to complete the setup? Besides the mic stands of course. I'm assuming an audio interface would be missing, correct? In another one of your replies, I saw that you mentioned using the Focusrite ISA828. That's a bit out of my price range and I'm sure it's way more than what I would need anyways.
Do you have any recommendations for interfaces that should also do the trick in this setup ("this setup" meaning the two Nuvo N8s, the two room mics and the AEA R84 as added in your second video)?
I am an absolute amateur at this, so please excuse me if the questions seem redundant. Nonetheless, I'm a firm believer in "buy once, buy well", therefore I am not looking to cut corners with gear.
Hope this message finds you well. Sending many greetings from Germany ☺
Thanks for the kind words. The room mics are Miktek C7s. A complete set up would be mics (plus stands and cables), an audio interface, and a computer. Focusrite makes a totally decent budget-friendly audio interface called the Scarlett. Also, if you were using just two mics you could save money by getting an interface with just 2 channels (or 4 if you wanted rather than 8)-since in some sense you’re paying for the channels. There are specific ones that are made for ribbon mics you might want to look at.
I hope this helps!
Hi, Ben, thanks for the good video.
According to your mic setup (see 9:24), you pan the high register of the keyboard (aka melody part) to -30, i.e. LEFT 30. And the bass register to +35, i.e. RIGHT 30.
QUESTION: Is this panning not confusing and frustrating for the listener (especially if he/she is a piano player) because the high register will appear left, bass register will appear right and this is quite opposite of what the player hears in reality, when sitting in front of the piano keyboard?
Usually it is done this way in classical music, from the perspective of the audience. I also had this question many times, because in jazz/pop, the high register is from the pianist's point of view (on the right).
Great video and very well explained. What type of stand is the one that's holding de mid mic?... I've been looking for something like that for a while
The stand is put out by On-Stage. It works well but just make sure you want it in your space because it takes up quite a bit of it. It's not telescoping. Also, it's not a fault of the stand but you really don't want to bonk your head on the lead counterbalance!
Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching!
great video! i'll be recording cello and piano this summer and this video has given me some really helpful tips. unfortunately i only have one N8, and was planning on using it on the cello. If you had to choose between a pair of KM183 omnis or AT4050 LDC set to omni for piano spots, what would you pick?
Glad you got some ideas from my video. I'd expect the N8 to sound great on cello. Though I've not used those particular mics I would expect the choice to be between warm (AT4050s) and (super detailed). If you really like the piano you're working with the 183s ought to do well. If there's any unwanted brightness, damper sizzle, etc. the ATs would likely de-emphasize those unwanted sounds.
Another thought: You may know this but omni mics are not susceptible to the proximity effect. This can be advantageous when close miking a piano since the mics often need to be quite close (especially when not wanting to reject a different instrument in the room. Cardioid mics (especially of the LD type) can sound "tubby" in this situation.
Maybe this at least gives you some things to listen for as you A/B. Good luck!
Thank you so much for all the information! How would you recommend recording with only one mic in an untreated room? I have the zoom h1n which actually has two small condenser microphones in an xy pair and am recording my Kawaii Grand piano in my house.
You’re very welcome, Jesse! The main parameter you’ll be playing with is distance. If you have the ability to add reverb in post you might try getting fairly close in such that you don’t hear the room so much. Then the reverb becomes your pseudo room mics. I’d also experiment w height. It’s all about listening. Good luck!
I am planning an experiment with the Blumlein SetUp on my grand piano. For this I need 2 (low budget) microphones with 8s characteristic. At first I was looking for large diaphragm microphones until people in a forum also recommended ribbon microphones. You are also a friend of them, as you said in the video. These are considered warm and natural, but usually only go up to 15 or 16 kHz, so treble and harmonics are hardly picked up. Aren't these highs missing in the recording? Doesn't it sound too dull?
Björn, you raise a good point. My AEA R8 ribbon mics start to drop off around 5KHz with very little signal above 15kHz. I use EQ to make sure there's enough brilliance in the recording. Also, my room mics are LD condensors which helps supplement anything the ribbons are neglecting. This week, I will release a video that will include a sample of how my ribbons sound by themselves. Maybe that will help you since it sounds like you will be just using 2 mics in total.
I would say to keep in mind that with condensors (perhaps especially at the budget range) will introduce more transients than ribbons do. So, even if you're happier with the very-upper spectrum, you may be less happy with the overall sound of the recording. Adding to the complexity of your decision is that budget ribbon mics might be especially bad at the very thing you fear. A friend of mine has the sE VR1 and while it is a good mic for the price it has noticeably less "luster" than my pricey AEA mics. I would try to get a look at any mic's frequency response chart that you're considering. aE's VR2 ($500 US) goes up to 18kHz I know.
Gosh, I hope this helps!
Thank you so much for your video , very good . Please , could you tell me which Are the best mic for recording grand piano ? I have Rode NT 2000 , Apogee 76 elements , mic - pre Neve Amek 9098 system. I have Yamaha C5 grand Piano . Thank you in advance
It sounds like you have some nice equipment, in addition to a nice piano. Close to the piano I really like my AEA N8s. I would think another NT 2000 could pair nicely with the one your have as room mics. There are so many other good options that I've not had a chance to try personally, but my videos feature the mics I've arrived at. I would just say to keep doing your research to inform your decision.
Thanks for watching!
Are you following the 3:1 rule with those close mics? How important is it to get that spacing right?
I think of the 3:1 rule as pertaining to a more localized sound source than the piano, e.g. guitar cab, wind instrument. With piano I think of the close mics each being responsible for the portion of the piano they are positioned by. I'm mainly occupied with covering the bases, as it were. That said, the two mics pictured in this video are spaced well beyond 3X their distance from the soundboard. So in that sense I am abiding by the principle.
Thanks for watching!
Great video. Is it possible to describe how do you adjust the setting on DAW also? ( reverb and eq maybe) I understand it could be differ by people’s preference but is there a general direction for grand piano recording? Because I found it trouble me the most now.
j Yang Thank you! Not only is everyone’s taste different but so are reverb plug-ins. I use Waves IR-1, btw, which I like. I think the main thing I would recommend regarding reverb is to be sure to back off the dry gain, especially on what I call the proximate mics. That will give the impression of distance from the piano and allow the reverb to dominate a little more.
Regarding EQ, I use that to back off the bass of the proximate mics-not enough to weaken it (we like bass) but enough to take any boominess that has resulted from the proximity effect. With the room mics I sometimes add a bit of low end since they are further from the piano and therefore emphasize the high-end frequencies. This will be especially necessary if you use small diaphragm mics.
I hope this helps. Thanks for watching!
@@insidepianos thanks so much for the replying!! This really give me the hint of the direction. Would try it right away.
Another great video. Been loking for mics to record an upright piano, tried the soyez 013 fet small condenser mic, and the are to honestly, to sharp, and detailed. Any recommendation for mic on a upright piano? Would 2 nuvo n8 be a good choice for an upright?
Small diaphragm condensers are the worst/best? at picking up unwanted detail in a piano. Large diaphragm condensers can be worth trying since they are less detailed but still...
I'm confident you'd be mmmuch happier with a pair of Nuvo N8s for any piano recording you'll do. I'm not saying they are the only excellent piano mics but they allowed me to make the first piano recordings that I was actually proud of. (And close to two years later they're almost paid off!!!) :)
Thank you for answering, im relative new to setting up mics, and recording live instrument, but I will definitive have those mics in mind, been reading a little about them also after watching your video, and they might be a very good choice:) thanks
I consider buying the Neumann U87. Do you think it's one of the best mics for Classical piano?
When using several mics do they have to be in the same quality or can one be a first class and one only be a middle class? My old is the Rode Nt4 and Maybe I like to use it in s Stereo Setup with the Neumann U87...
You cannot go wrong with a U87. Unfortunately I don't own any myself. But I was hired recently to mix a piano project using them as room mics. Love them!
@@insidepianos Thank you for your assessment!
Thanks, that's a great video. I have got a pair of Rode M5's. Are these considered ribbon mics?
Thanks so much! Those Rode M5's are small-diaphragm condenser mics, using a small drum-like membrane to create the signal. (You can probably see it just beyond the mesh on the tip.) Ribbon mics use a corrugated ribbon to create the signal. The strength of small diaphragm condensers are their detail and high SPF rating. Their potential weakness is a relatively weak bass response and too-much detail (depending on the context).
Nice instrument collection, by the way!
@@insidepianos Thank you so much for your detailed answer!
Thanks for the great tutorial. Could you tell me what interface do you use to record those 4 mics?
You're so welcome, Hoàn! I use a Focusrite ISA828 fitted with the D/A converter. It runs through a Focusrite Sapphire Pro40 as the interface but the preamps and conversion are done by the ISA828.
@@insidepianos Thanks in advance, bro.
And ... by the way: what's the title of that wonderful chopin-song?? The repeated part is very beautiful ...(Must be something in B major ... but I can't find any on the web) .... ah ... just found it with the SoundHound-App: it's Chopin prelude op 28 no 11 :-)
It's from Chopin's 24 preludes. No. 11 in B major.
@@insidepianos Yes .. as I wrote above ..... meanwhile I've got the score ... though it's just one page ... too hard for me ... I am still trying ... jesus !!! ... 5 sharps too many :-( .... B major ..... couldn't he have written it in C?
This is very helpful, Ben! I just subscribed to your channel. One question: assuming that the sound reaching the room mic is a bit delayed, do you compensate for that in post? Or do you leave it like that? Arguments can be made both ways. If I understand this correctly, when the proximate mics are dominant in the mix, the room mics can offer a bit of natural reverb; but when the room mics are dominant, then a delayed heavy reverb may sound unnatural. Thank you!
Great question! And thanks for subscribing. I'll be posting a new video right after responding to a few comments. I also have some other in the pipeline soon to be released.
Back to your question: I find in my size room (not a concert hall) syncing the proximate mics to the room mics isn't always necessary but is sometimes is preferable to my ear. What I'll typically do is make a few-second recording in which I play note #44 at a forte dynamic. Then I'll line up the room mics with the bump made in the treble proximate mic. If I'm able to do this in one "skootch" I can undo and redo to see if I like the difference it makes. Usually, I find it cleans things up a bit.
@@insidepianos Thanks for the detailed note! I will try to experiment a bit using your method and see how it turns out. Please keep the videos coming.
@@TommyXie You're very welcome. And I'll keep the videos coming. Out of curiosity, what piano-related topics are of interest to you?
@@insidepianos Hi! Sorry, I just saw your question. Anything related to piano recording interests me. New advancements in piano technology, such as the composite action you talked about, would be great, too.
@@TommyXie Got it! Thanks for your reply.
Do you ever phase align the mid/side mics with the spot mics? Thanks!
I absolutely do. I call it “the scootch”.
@@insidepianos Right on! Happy scootching!
do you hook up the mics to your computer?
Yes, but via a Focusrite preamp and converter.
How do you deal with pedal noise?
Pedal noise one has to fix. If you’re talking about damper noise, I try not to have the mics too close them.
Question.... I finally tried audacity reverb and it sounded pretty great. But there were digital artifacts. For super simple Bach 🎹 recording, what would you recommend for reverb? Assuming an interface/preamp with digital and/analogue send/receive.....
I’ve been very happy with Waves IR1. Any impulse response-type reverb would be worth considering for its more realistic character.
@@insidepianos thanks bro. So it's nice to listen to a reverb while playing the piano with headphones, a.k.a. live monitor. Are you able to do that? The obvious option for me would to use the send/return on my new Audient id24 interface which comes in two weeks. But I am going to guess that if a DAW plug in is doing the reverb, I am not going to hear it unless I am listening to the interface DtoA (call computer output). I don't think that audacity has that monitoring feature. What DAW do you use?
It looks like cubase pro has all the monitoring set ups that you get in a recoding studio, so i just bought it (330 Eur) and your ir reverb suggestion. Thanks for teaching me what ir stands for. That helps )))
I just want to say one more thing, on the spiritual level ))).... So I get a good DAW, but what about the preamps/AtoD? ....So I get a good "interface" box, but what about the mics? So i get some good mics, but what about the piano? So I fix my piano.... Doah!!!!!!!! My problem is that i need to learn to read Bach!!!!!! ))))). And the weakest link of the chain is...... Yes, me, the player. E.g. give Johann a crusty old harpsichord, it will be alright.
😂 Well, personally I like being the weak link in the chain. It beats being limited by one’s tools.
I use Logic which has a monitoring feature. It also has some pretty decent on board reverbs I sometimes tap into.
Thanks a lot. I have a 200 year old stand up piano (W. Biese, wooden harp, A 372hz), and I would like to record it. I only play Bach. And I only sight read it (very slow). No trills, no pedal. So I am looking for this super honest, simple relatively tight sound, no room. As I am writing, I am returning a hand help tascam recorder that was horrible. Your range of mics makes a lot of sense (I was a prof studio engineer in 1988). So much has changed... ..question, assuming I use some of the condenser mics or ribbon mic that you laid out, what does one use these days for simple 2 or four track recording (that can provide pre amps/phantom power as needed for the mics in your video)? Again, it is just for that one piano, just for Bach and I am looking for 100% "mic" vs signal processing....
That sounds like a super rare and interesting piano. Down the line, when you get it recorded, I would love to hear it!
I can see how a hand held unit would not satisfy you. I would suggest a basic setup consisting of mics--->preamps/interface--->computer-based DAW (digital audio workstation).
Perhaps we've covered the mics, plus your earlier experience can inform that. For the interface (yes, w phantom power), I can definitely recommend Focusrite. Their pro-sumer level Saffire series is really quite good. I've had the opportunity to hear it compared with the top of the line ISA series, which I use. The ISA is better but not worlds better. If you do go with ribbon mics, be aware that the lower-tier preamps will likely need a boost in the signal via a seperate unit such as AEA's Couldlifter.
I recommend a computer-based DAW for the ease of editing and file handling. Also, you may find that you would appreciate a bit of compression and normalization which won't color the sound, just make the dynamics more realistic and at a similar level to commercial releases. That's a piece of cake on a DAW. The best news is that because you'd be asking so little from this program a free one would suffice. If you have a Mac, Garageband would do. If not, Audacity is just one of the freeware DAWs you could look into.
Hope this helps! Thanks for watching.
@@insidepianos thank you dear friend. I ordered a focusrite preamp (a to d converter) just now... a big thank you ben. so much to say, but maybe thank you is enough. ...in short, when i was 20, 1988, i took a loan to buy a synclavier (new england digital) daw for 169K. two year later pro tools arrived, delivered the same for 5K, and n.e.d. was bankrupt. so i will skip the detail, but suffice it to say that your recommendation of a free daw, and focusrite preamp, is very, very, positive.
@@thomasschwarz1973 It pains me to hear your story of what happened to you in the late 80s. Wow, what disruptive technology Pro Tools was!
In short, you are very welcome. Sounds like you are on your way to making some cool recordings. Good luck!
@@insidepianos Hi again, here is the first pass ruclips.net/video/ZL_mdLrSEuM/видео.html Thanks again my friend. I went with a focusrite pre called 2i2 which came with headphones, a condener mike and an xlr chord. But the real irony.... ....it comes with a free "pro tools first" )))))) i just have one channel, so i am using audacity as you suggested, but i did install the protools.... ..unreal. anyway, i am so thankful to you for the awesome suggestion. here is the package i got for 200 Eur www.thomann.de/intl/focusrite_scarlett_2i2_studio_3rd_gen.htm Again, thank you so much.
@@thomasschwarz1973 Thanks so much for sharing! Those Scarlett pres are a good way to go. And with Pro Tools you have pretty much all you need! Or continue with Audacity if you prefer.
Your piano's sound is captivating--lute-like. As cute as that little girl is :) maybe you could include a pic of your unusual piano on future recordings.
Also, if you could add a second mic and pan them into a stereo field that would significantly improve your recordings. Lastly, experimenting with compression or normalization would bring the volume up so you don't need to crank the stereo to hear it.
Glad you're up and running though! The rest is just tweaking.
Freddie boy? I'm sure.
Yeah...I’m sure he would have bristled at that. I, however, like being in nickname basis with my favorite composers.
Also, thanks for watching to the end!
Thanks for your Vlog.
I refer your setup.
I use the "SmartRig+, stereo, Max level"
"SUGAR DM-830A microphones x2 ",
"DSLR Canon 5D3 ,mic preamp about +1/4 "
This could be done on video and audio at the same file.
I just changed the mov of file to mp4 on computer.
ruclips.net/video/DQIKlRLWm9A/видео.html
Nice to have the audio and video synced automatically. Great picture from your Canon!
Great video!!!
Thank you Staffan! Glad you found it helpful.
@@insidepianos I’m doing tests to optimize the recordings of our grand piano. So far XY with small condensors inside piano combined with large condensors in wide stereo pair, as room microphones, gives the best result. Will try large condensors with angulation to get a wider area recorded.
@@staffansoderstrom2023 I do like the wide stereo pair, as I mentioned. I guess you tried the others? You could also try using the small diagraphm mics as the proximate mics. It's a LOT of playing around when recording pianos. Hate to admit it but I've actually revised my approach since making the video, mainly with respect to the placement of the treble proximate mic. I'm actually aiming it at the bridge (despite what I said in the video), finding it gets more bloom of the sound- and is less "plinky". I might have to do a follow up, maybe also going a bit into the mixing aspect. It truly is endless but our love of the instrument compels us, right? :) Feel free to send me samples. What kind of piano are you working with?
Just a quick PS - If your large-diaphragm condensors have a figure-of-8 option you could place them where you like the X/Y pair ro create a Blumlein pattern.
The love of the instrument is mutual! Sent messages via messenger.