4:25 Did James just say "my keyboard on my desk" pointing at his Truly Ergonomic Cleave keyboard - meaning that of all the options he has on the Planet, he's using our keyboard as his daily driver. A.w.e.s.o.m.e.
Came here to watch a video about a stupidly overpriced keyboard. Walked away having ordered one of your keyboards. I'm not sure that's how these video's are meant to work :)
There are many free files for 3d priteble versions of basicly the same keyboard. Its called the "Dactyl Manuform Keyboard". It can be build with decent switches for less than 100$. Not metal though and no cool wireless charging mat.
I must say after 3d printing the Dactyl Manuform myself it just feels cheap , extremely light and sounds horrible. This form factor is very difficult to find other than 3d printing it yourself. It's extremely expensive but it's targeted towards the mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. Hence why the keycaps are shitty because people that spent that much on a keyboard have no issue spending 300 dollars on custom keycaps
This is literally just a wireless 4x5 Dactyl Manuform. I'm literally typing this comment on a functionally almost equivalent keyboard (Dactyl Manuform 5x6 that I 3D printed myself) that cost me ~$40 in parts and is completely customisable.
Just because people can adapt to a regular keyboard, doesn't mean there's no value in ergonomic designs. And depends on the amount of usage. It's mostly inertia, though, plenty of research, yet prices and unfamiliarity keeps people away. But this keyboard, yeah, it's for flexing your wallet more than ergonomics.
I'd say it embiggens enthusiasts egos to order/buy this thing tbh. Most keyboards around the 350ish mark are as good as you're going to get. There's only so much someone can do with a keyboard.
as a touch typist every time I touch an ergo keyboard I realize that I type the [b] key with both hands, so I've never been in the market for split styles.. but it does look pretty awesome. not $1600 awesome, but still awesome.
I found out I did this with the Y and 6 key myself, but I eventually trained myself out of it after using a Quefrency and then a Lily58. Also, yeah. Definitely agree that the keyboard in the vid isn't worth $1600. A lot of other options for much, much, much less.
@@Aspality nice! I'd need one on both hands for sure. The few I've run across didn't have this feature. if I ever end up going that way again I'll be on the lookout for exactly that.
I think it's stunning, especially with a blue legend. I'd love to have this on my desk. Unfortunately that RRP is absolutely insanity. For $1600 I could buy an entire VIRPIL hotas / carsim setup, with desk mounts and accessories.
@@stephenhart8981 I think a better comparison would be something like, I could buy a 3D printer and build myself a dactyl for this money. How many ergo keyboard guys are in to cockpits? Fair?
@@uhhhhh262 huh? I compared a peripheral to a peripheral. You compared a peripheral to a manufacturing device. Given the equivalent cost, and it's an input device for your PC, I'd say that's reasonable.
Thanks for reviewing our keyboard! I'm James Losotho, and it was a pleasure to have our product reviewed! We take feedback very seriously and we shall include a USB cable, create an online software for key mapping, LEDs, and optimize production for a far cheaper cost!
And the USB c on the bottom is badly placed. You should be able to charge it and use it. For the price you are asking, you shall deliver perfection or close to it.
I would add that the USB on the bottom is not only a problem for charging without Qi but also for some people who need an ergonomic keyboard that's wired (i.e. people who work on government, financial, and health sector work machines) for security reasons. So having the ability to run wireless via BT, 2.4ghz dongle, and wired as options would increase market opportunities. Also some people like wired for aesthetics as well as for gaming latency concerns.
$1,600, yikes. I'll stick to my normal keyboard, but I'm sure this keyboard would be useful for those who need it. I personally don't battle issues with wrist pain and such so I feel like the added discomfort of getting used to the layout wouldn't be worth the ergonomics for me.
@@alfiegordon9013 $70 sounds about right. Although I'm not the biggest into the keyboard world (just now starting to mod one of mine), so you probably know it more than me.
Based on my own observation and use of an Ergodox for the last years: Three rows is insufficient for anything but basic typing tasks, especially when combined with only six thumb keys. No amount of tap/hold/release layer fudging will make this efficiently useable for anything other than the most straight typing. Trying to use this with any productivity software that has extensive shortcut support will quickly reveal this needs at least dedicated numeric keys. Same goes for playing games, really. It'll be useable for those, but it'll always feel cumbersome. Just like with the Dactyl Manuform, the column stagger, column curve and row curve and overall tenting all are solid ergonomic design, but those thumb clusters could be improved. That thumb key design relies heavily on thumb abduction/adduction over flexion, and will create fatigued thumbs. The positioning of those thumb keys also makes it very uncomfortable to activate two at a time, and with this few keys overall, there will be many such situations. At that price, this is a paperweight for show-offs with too much disposable income.
Based on my use of corne over the last half year, three rows are enough for programming, 3D modelling, data analysis, office work etc. I agree that this layout is horrible for games, but shortcut keys are not a problem at all for me. I just wanted to give another perspective, only a Sith deals in absolutes
I'll take "hasty generalization" for 300 Alex. It doesn't work for you. That's fine. But is it really that hard to understand that other people's mileage may vary? I can point you to at least a couple dozen people who daily drive 30-40% keyboards. Some of them are even have youtube channels, like Ben Vallack.
@@Maarrk Same here but from Plank to Corne and been using for the last 3 years. I have no issues using shortcuts in CAD and for the bit of programming I do (engineering student who likes programming on the side), in fact I outright prefer it by miles compared to traditional boards. I still have a relatively normal 65% I use for gaming and typing when I can't be bothered to change the cables back out, but god does it just feel awful now. Reaching across the board with pinkies so I can get to modifier keys is just dreadful for the finger, and needing to cause radial or ulnar deviation every time I reach for a number key I can only imagine the damage that will do over time, even with how slight it is. Typing is already completely awful for your hands, even if I didn't find it more efficient I'd still say that cost is well worth the longterm health benefits it carries with it. You can always spend a few extra minutes on a project, you can never get your hands back.
"No amount of tap/hold/release layer fudging will make this efficiently useable for anything other than the most straight typing" For you. It can very much be done, you just like moving your hands around more rather than go to those lengths. But then again, very few people would want to, so your advice is valid.
Much of the custom keyboard community and typist community now-a-days is really, really into Linears. Linear switches make up a lot of the market and a lot of the enthusiast focus. Especially with all the new spring types and having elongated stems/poles + longer springs or shorter springs, etc.
I’m not saying it’s worth the price but it has way more features than a print at home keyboard, Qi charging, addressable RGB, Bluetooth, a warranty and all the costs involved with a company like advertising, manufacturing, design etc.
@@oxfordsparky You can put Bluetooth on a home-made keyboard. Not that I would want to, given how much of a headache all of the wireless systems on this keyboard are. I'll take a cord if it means no Bluetooth latency, no pairing problems, and no batteries that degrade over time.
@@FlintTD I never understood the point of wireless keyboards. I thought the whole point of wireless was for portability but like... How often and how far do you need to take your keyboard from the PC? Mouse I can understand because some people are bothered by the cord dragging around. But yeah, I don't see a point in just, not having your keyboard plugged in. Edit: Then I also saw your other comment. Very good point, giant charging pad completely removes the point of it being wireless in the first place. 😂
it's actually quite common among the diy keyboards scene. The dactyl manuform is one of the most popular models to 3d print, and maybe that's the market research the makers needed to produce this specific product
not to mention kinesis is releasing the kinesis advantage360 this summer, a split version of their kinesis advantage keyboard. the kinesis advantage360 is going for $440
Lads, you've missed it. It's the keyboard from Westworld the TV show, not a dactyl manuform copy. Not an ergo keyboard, just basically an homage keyboard
James, if you want an ergo keyboard with a function row - the Dactyl Manuform project can generate a parametric model with ANY amount of keys you desire.
Just built a split keyboard from Keebio. Ergonomic without the absurd layout of this, supply your own keycaps so you don't have these slippery nightmares, no silly wireless gimmick, you pick your own switches (tactile, please!), and all cost (a lot to be fair) but FAAAR less than this. Even if you want ergo, I don't understand who this is for. And it doesn't even work well...
From my research into ergo keyboards the Dactyl Manuform looks like the most promising model. This is basically a perfect Dactyl Manuform. Quality engineering, wireless, convenience of standardized manufacturing. It's all I could ask for. Unfortunately the price point is way out of my budget.
For that price, I'd want hot swap and ability to change keycaps too. Also, ability to swap battery when it dies. Cool idea. Seems to have a learning curve.
I think hot swap is really just a noob friendly feature to attract suckers. If you don't know what switches you like then its completely moronic to spend 1600 on a keyboard lol. I don't want to swap my switches on a whim, I find my favorite switch and that's what I use. Its really annoying when your switches pop out every time you take off your keycaps. Hotswap also leads to the keyboard feeling less solid overall.
@@ecksdee7957 noob feature to attract suckers? Lolwut? I have multiple favorite switches. Often I'll switch an entire board out with new switches. How do you know which switches you want on a board you've never used? Not to mention resale value is higher because you dont need to unsolder to accomodate the buyer. You must be using trash hardware - I've never had a switch pop out of the socket when removing a keycap. None of my builds with hotswap PCB "feel less solid" either. Methinks you've been done dirty with bad hardware homie
You can surely change the keycaps; the stem is standard MX. I also believe that the case is held together by screws, not glue, so you can actually service it. It is surprising that this is not hotswap, though.
you can change the keycaps of every mechanical keyboard, and even if the battery was swappable, would it be worth unscrewing everything just to switch it out? I do agree it is a cool idea, angry miao has had massive success with their cyberboard so I think they just trying what ever at this point, and everything has a learning curve, its why even though qwerty logically does not make sense, we all still use it. No one wants to relearn how to type, but for keyboard nerds and people with money burning in their pocket, this is still a worthy pickup, and the big SOLD OUT on their page is proof.
I'm 100% with you on the F-row. So obnoxious that nobody makes split boards with them. It doesn't interfere with the mouse or coffee cup in the middle. I tried a BFO 9000 but it's actually too wide so you can't get to the home row without looking. Really need the F row to start being the norm on splits.
@@cat-le1hf funny I do exactly this on my mod layer which I'm CONSTANTLY using as it's holding down space bar for my arrows, nav cluster, and modifiers... but I do have an F-Row and I still NEVER actually use my mod layer for F-keys.
Basically a 4x6 manuform but with no wrist rest. You guys should review one of our manuforms. Truthfully the manuform isn't a unique design anymore, you can make your own and there are open source designs.
I love the idea of ergo boards but I just can't imagine myself ever using one. Maybe in like another decade when my carpal tunnel is in critical condition, THEN i'll make the switch. lol and even then, ain't spending no $1600 on one. Especially one thats not even hotswap!
There are far cheaper options out there for both the split ergo boards like this one (Dactyl Manuform), and also other types like the TGR Alice and the boards that copied its layout (Arisu layout).
Try something like the Kinesis Freestyle, Ergodox Moonlander or Matias Ergo Pro. They're split designs with some adjustment possibilities, and cheap (well, compared to this one...) enough to be substantially less painful alternatives. Also, if you change now/soonish, you may never hit peak carpal, as a bonus. That was my thought, at least, when I migrated to split keyboards in...'99, I think? With the Acer Future Ergo keyboard. Currently, I have a Kinesis Freestyle at work, a Matias Ergo Pro at home, and no carpal tunnel. Yet. Knock on wood.
Having worked in IT support for decades it was very few people I found who used ergonomic keyboards. One person I remember used the ergonomic keyboard on a surface with the front of the surface pointed down. So far I have not had issues with my wrists, or hands. Thing is I never typed all that fast, or kept my hands on the keyboard that long so that it might effect me. Worked with all types of host systems that used different keyboard layouts, and function keys. Today being old only work on my Logitech K750 Apple Keyboard since I have left the Windows, and Sun UNIX workstation world behind.
Working with software development as a hobby and then professionally, my wrists & hands started having issues before even leaving college. Switching layouts to Dvorak helped. With hobbyist keyboards now-a-days, getting an ergonomic keyboard can be done for about half the price of something like a kinesis advantage. I now have several ergonomic keyboards, just because they're comfortable to type on and they're relatively affordable.
I'm not really convinced yet with charging pads for things like mice and keyboard. If it was build into the desk, then sure but as extra thing you need to put on your desk and wire up it just seems to miss the mark for me.
I bought a cheap desk pad last year and I love it, it has some tacky RGB that I’ve turned off and a shitty speaker that I’ve disabled but it also has a convenient usb hub built into it that I plug the receiver for my wireless keyboard and mouse. If they didn’t cost so much as a package I would definitely get a Qi charging desk pad and Qi mouse and keyboard, I’m happy enough with my basic Microsoft wireless desk top and rechargeable batteries, I’m not spending easily 10x the price to get Qi wireless.
5:33 literally every banana split, gat black ink, creamsicle, alpac v2, cream, milky yellow, c3 tangerine, aqua king v2, cherry mx black and Durock linear user: and I took that personally
As an ergodox user, I feel my keyboard blows this one out of the water in pretty much every way, and a still expensive but MUCH more reasonable price. Also one thing I want to say: while both would be nice, is much rather have hotswappable switches than erroneous key heights. Having different resistances and feels to different keys was such an eye opener for me as a typist. Cannot recommend it enough.
This totally feels like a "Angry Villain Hacker" kinda product. With the futuristic look and the matrix green. Its a good look. But very much movie-hacker
@@harrisonlichtenberg3162 Their marketing says, "The NEXT GENERATION ergo keyboard" and "There's no other keyboard quite like it." Since it's almost exactly like the ergodox, it sounds pretty up its own ass to me.
My bloody keyboard has worn out tops to the backlit screen but doesn't affect touch typists; however, I have some how managed to wear out my "F" and "J" nubs for centering on home row and I'm now crippled in using the fool keyboard in the strangest way I've ever experienced. Seriously didn't think a little bump was so necessary to being a touch typist, FYI.
The fact that there's NFTs involved makes it EXTREMELY likely they didn't care about the quality of the physical product. And the fact it's $1600 means it's only for the easily gullible. Even at $100 it would be a rip off.
"Even at $100 it would be a rip off" oh boy, you must know nothing about custom keyboards (even though this isn't a custom keyboard, keycults are very much a thing)
It looks like something from a sci-fi movie. I like it, but I wouldn’t buy it or use it. But I think it’s a cool piece of art/design. The most ergonomic keyboard I’ve found is just using a regular keyboard that is very low profile. Haven’t had any wrist issues and I’m a developer in my mid-30s typing a lot all day and even into the night sometimes.
I'm 52 now. Wait until you hit your forties before realising that - although you tried to be 'ergonomic to a reasonable budget' for two decades - it was too little, and now too late, to go back and do it right the first and only time. Like an old warehouse foreman after telling the new lad to 'keep your back upright and lift wi' yer legs'; you just know the youngsters (under 35) are going to ignore you, think they've re-invented the wheel and will all have the chance to regret their choices later in life. And regret it, they will.
Five-axis CNC... I bet that they could have accomplished a similar esthetic using cast-steel for a whole lot less initial investment. Or maybe they are just renting a machine, hence the price.
It's a reasonable price over how much time it'd take me to make one. I did make my own so it was free, but that's ballpark how much the labor was worth. The dream is to have it be metal instead of plastic
"which reminds me of the kenisis advantage two" oh my god, if somebody told james the history of the kenesis -> dactyl manuform -> variants it would blow his mind
So let's get this straight: they STOLE the Dactyl Keyboard, and re-sold it for 1600 dolars? WTF? Dactyl is an open-source 3D printable keyboard. This looks exactly like it. They just shamelessly sold it for 1.6k
For that price, I’m expecting several custom keyboards for different uses. Put that thing in full plastics and more than a grand cheaper… I still think it’s overpriced. Then again, I’m not part of the target market.
kinda funny that most of the comments said that it's not worth 1600 and looks kinda meh, welcome to the custom mechanical keyboard scene! this is probably still half way to the end game space because there are still keyboards that costs double or even triple the amount, not to mention keycaps, artisans, switches etc
The Keyboardio Model 01 / 100 does a similar thing, but wired and using custom sculpted caps rather than the contoured case. The new model has hot swappable keys as well, plus their under-palm key for switching layers. It’s a great product at less than a quarter the price.
not saying I'd buy this but you gotta understand for something this complex and small batch, 1600 is actually kinda reasonable. whether they SHOULD make some small batch product so complex and hard to manufacture is another story
I'm not a keyboard aficionado but man this keyboard loosk AMAZING. Not 1600 amazing but it was for 200-300 USD I would be buying it in a heartbeat. I love the colors, love the layout and all the QOL stuff.
It charging at 85 isn't too much. Ideally you'd keep your lithium based batteries at 80-90% at all times to keep it happy and long lasting. There's tons of research into this.
When Apple tested their first wireless mouse they saw that lots of users just plugged in the cable assuming it wouldn't work without it. So they purposely redesigned the mouse to be useless with the cable plugged in to force users to use it wireless. Also one minute of charging gave you a few hours of usage, full charge number of months. So it wasn't Apple who was stupid, users were. I assume it's the same logic implemented here.
So this is a Dactyl Manuform with a CNC case. Like the concept, but not for $1600. I’m now waiting for the Kinesis Advantage 360. Similar concept at 1/4 of the price.
It's not looking they used capacitive sensor keys for this keyboard. They are mostly silent but you should get used to is as they sometimes don't have any click point (you press and release but don't have a point to where you need to press the key down; it simply works; and you can drive nails with this keyboards).
I built a dactyl manuform for around 60 Euro plus two glasses of honey I gave the guy who printed the cases for me. I mean, alright, this is well built, heavier, better case and all that. But this doesn’t sum up to 1600 dollars, sorry.
i feel like i could legit fall in love with gaming with it. using the left side only and my mouse where the right side is. Also anyone complaining about the price. Im not trying to completely justify it, but i can tell you from experience that designing and modeling this keyboard would have taken an unimaginable amount of time. There are keyboards around 1k that are just normal ass rectangle keyboards.
Are there kits to build your own ergonomic keyboard? It'd be cool, either here or on LTT, to have a 3D printed ergonomic chassis and just to pop in a pre-built circuit board and keys. Split keyboards seem perfect for that, since they'd fit on even a standard Makerbot print bed.
Yes there are! Some popular DIY ergo keyboards are lily58, corne, sofle. Most of them are usually open source too so you can modify the design however you want.
Please keep with James for keyboard content, as an idiot who spends several thousands per year on keyboards/keycaps he is the only one I can stand of you guys when it comes to keyboards (I know people like me are not the target audience, but still, he has the most keyboard knowledge out of your team for sure)
4:25 Did James just say "my keyboard on my desk" pointing at his Truly Ergonomic Cleave keyboard - meaning that of all the options he has on the Planet, he's using our keyboard as his daily driver. A.w.e.s.o.m.e.
All the traffic he has sent to you guys in this video deserves a giftpack! Will you be releasing a wireless version any time soon?
Bought
No videos on your channel?
What optical switches do you use in both your ergonomic and gaming keyboard? (As in who makes them?)
Came here to watch a video about a stupidly overpriced keyboard. Walked away having ordered one of your keyboards. I'm not sure that's how these video's are meant to work :)
There are many free files for 3d priteble versions of basicly the same keyboard. Its called the "Dactyl Manuform Keyboard". It can be build with decent switches for less than 100$. Not metal though and no cool wireless charging mat.
none of that has any real added value over the 3D printed one
@@marcogenovesi8570 to you that is
I must say after 3d printing the Dactyl Manuform myself it just feels cheap , extremely light and sounds horrible. This form factor is very difficult to find other than 3d printing it yourself. It's extremely expensive but it's targeted towards the mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. Hence why the keycaps are shitty because people that spent that much on a keyboard have no issue spending 300 dollars on custom keycaps
@@lllleeeeiiii to everybody
@@bert_pl one thing is that they should sell this as bare-bone kit instead so that people can use whatever they want
This looks like something I would totally pick up if I found it for 30 bucks.
@Tommy Gaming no
id say for 300 for the Keyb and 150 for the Mat and extras I could see it beeing almost reasonable but 1600 is too hefty.
you can do, after the company went bankrupt
Might spend as much as $45 for the whole package
lol that spam says germs-love store, like... I don't need to buy herpes dude, just date a stripper
It's beyond me how did they think 1600 for this was anywhere near reasonable.
I mean, people are paying more for some monkeys illustrations
you must be new to the custom mechanical keyboard space
welcome to the start of the high end side of mechanical keyboard hobby
ah but you see, theres a nft! So your basically going to be as rich as jeff bezos in a couple years if you buy these! (jking)
Trust me the world is riddled with fucking atrocities we often call “dumb people”….
This is literally just a wireless 4x5 Dactyl Manuform. I'm literally typing this comment on a functionally almost equivalent keyboard (Dactyl Manuform 5x6 that I 3D printed myself) that cost me ~$40 in parts and is completely customisable.
How does the PCB for one of those work, unless you have a printer able to print PCBs isn't it a massive pain in the ass to wire up all the keys?
@@nicholaskarras2759 not really actually, if you have the time and patience its basically wiring up a grid
@@bryankasodu interesting
I really want to get an ergo keyboard, but it would be way too hard for me to make myself and it cost too much prebuilt lol
$40 in parts but how much did your 3D printer cost? That's not really an option for most of us ...
The more I look at these supposedly ergonomic keyboards the more I think my €25 keyboard is perfectly cromulent
Huh I learned a new word from a RUclips comment what a time to be alive
nah it's crummy
Just because people can adapt to a regular keyboard, doesn't mean there's no value in ergonomic designs. And depends on the amount of usage. It's mostly inertia, though, plenty of research, yet prices and unfamiliarity keeps people away. But this keyboard, yeah, it's for flexing your wallet more than ergonomics.
I'd say it embiggens enthusiasts egos to order/buy this thing tbh. Most keyboards around the 350ish mark are as good as you're going to get. There's only so much someone can do with a keyboard.
There are good ergonomic keyboards, and there are stupid ergonomic keyboards.
"oh we're the only cable company in town that must be super inconvenient" I love that episode 🤣
Was looking for this comment🤣
They all seem to be big south park fans
@@dirtydan3029 naaah, just of a certain age group
You lost me at "Comes with an NFT"
as a touch typist every time I touch an ergo keyboard I realize that I type the [b] key with both hands, so I've never been in the market for split styles.. but it does look pretty awesome. not $1600 awesome, but still awesome.
A lot of split ergos have space for B's on both sides for you to map so you'd be fine.
My different split ergo keyboards disagree with each other about which hand should be pressing 6, so I feel that.
I found out I did this with the Y and 6 key myself, but I eventually trained myself out of it after using a Quefrency and then a Lily58. Also, yeah. Definitely agree that the keyboard in the vid isn't worth $1600. A lot of other options for much, much, much less.
@@Aspality nice! I'd need one on both hands for sure. The few I've run across didn't have this feature. if I ever end up going that way again I'll be on the lookout for exactly that.
Alice keybaords have split B keys so you may wanna look into those.
You can just build your own dactyl manuform for much cheaper
This is very ergonomic with the right setup
Yeah, if you already own a 3D printer :/
@@3nertia actually buying a 3d printer and making it yourself would still be like 1/8 - 1/6 the price of this
@@IonicSplash365 Only because this product is way overpriced for their manufacturing methods lol
I think it's stunning, especially with a blue legend. I'd love to have this on my desk.
Unfortunately that RRP is absolutely insanity. For $1600 I could buy an entire VIRPIL hotas / carsim setup, with desk mounts and accessories.
Did you just compare this to a joystick?
@@uhhhhh262 considering a very nice cockpit is 800$ that's a very reasonable comparison.
@@stephenhart8981 I think a better comparison would be something like, I could buy a 3D printer and build myself a dactyl for this money.
How many ergo keyboard guys are in to cockpits? Fair?
@@uhhhhh262 fine you can spend 1600$ on a 3d printer and print the keyboard and the cockpit. jeesh you got me.
@@uhhhhh262 huh? I compared a peripheral to a peripheral. You compared a peripheral to a manufacturing device.
Given the equivalent cost, and it's an input device for your PC, I'd say that's reasonable.
I couldn't tell if the camera shake when David sneezed was done in poet or was in camera, but I love that the editor used that shot.
The wireless charging is kinda dope, but I still wanna show off my customs cables lol
is that why they didn't have a cable in box
You can still use your own custom cable, just plug it in to the wireless plate
yeah its cool but apparently the wireless charging pad costs another 400$ ontop of the 1600$ like wtf lmfao
It's not kinda dope... it's just wasted energy, shouldn't we aim to get our efficiency up?
@@mobgripchamanrogue haha why are you so angry
Thanks for reviewing our keyboard! I'm James Losotho, and it was a pleasure to have our product reviewed! We take feedback very seriously and we shall include a USB cable, create an online software for key mapping, LEDs, and optimize production for a far cheaper cost!
Did anyone buy it yet?
And the USB c on the bottom is badly placed. You should be able to charge it and use it. For the price you are asking, you shall deliver perfection or close to it.
I would add that the USB on the bottom is not only a problem for charging without Qi but also for some people who need an ergonomic keyboard that's wired (i.e. people who work on government, financial, and health sector work machines) for security reasons. So having the ability to run wireless via BT, 2.4ghz dongle, and wired as options would increase market opportunities. Also some people like wired for aesthetics as well as for gaming latency concerns.
@@luisgoncalves2864 Unlike Apple, I can understand CNCing a usb port in is more complicated.
@@TechyBen apple or not, it is 1600
$1,600, yikes. I'll stick to my normal keyboard, but I'm sure this keyboard would be useful for those who need it. I personally don't battle issues with wrist pain and such so I feel like the added discomfort of getting used to the layout wouldn't be worth the ergonomics for me.
Useful? Definitely
Worth getting when even I could make one for probably 70$? Nope
@@alfiegordon9013 $70 sounds about right. Although I'm not the biggest into the keyboard world (just now starting to mod one of mine), so you probably know it more than me.
Just train your wrist if u have problems lol
you don't battle with RSI or wrist problems.... yet
Check out the CRKBD or dactyl manuform
Based on my own observation and use of an Ergodox for the last years:
Three rows is insufficient for anything but basic typing tasks, especially when combined with only six thumb keys. No amount of tap/hold/release layer fudging will make this efficiently useable for anything other than the most straight typing. Trying to use this with any productivity software that has extensive shortcut support will quickly reveal this needs at least dedicated numeric keys. Same goes for playing games, really. It'll be useable for those, but it'll always feel cumbersome.
Just like with the Dactyl Manuform, the column stagger, column curve and row curve and overall tenting all are solid ergonomic design, but those thumb clusters could be improved. That thumb key design relies heavily on thumb abduction/adduction over flexion, and will create fatigued thumbs. The positioning of those thumb keys also makes it very uncomfortable to activate two at a time, and with this few keys overall, there will be many such situations.
At that price, this is a paperweight for show-offs with too much disposable income.
Based on my use of corne over the last half year, three rows are enough for programming, 3D modelling, data analysis, office work etc. I agree that this layout is horrible for games, but shortcut keys are not a problem at all for me.
I just wanted to give another perspective, only a Sith deals in absolutes
I'll take "hasty generalization" for 300 Alex.
It doesn't work for you. That's fine. But is it really that hard to understand that other people's mileage may vary? I can point you to at least a couple dozen people who daily drive 30-40% keyboards. Some of them are even have youtube channels, like Ben Vallack.
@@Maarrk Same here but from Plank to Corne and been using for the last 3 years. I have no issues using shortcuts in CAD and for the bit of programming I do (engineering student who likes programming on the side), in fact I outright prefer it by miles compared to traditional boards. I still have a relatively normal 65% I use for gaming and typing when I can't be bothered to change the cables back out, but god does it just feel awful now. Reaching across the board with pinkies so I can get to modifier keys is just dreadful for the finger, and needing to cause radial or ulnar deviation every time I reach for a number key I can only imagine the damage that will do over time, even with how slight it is.
Typing is already completely awful for your hands, even if I didn't find it more efficient I'd still say that cost is well worth the longterm health benefits it carries with it. You can always spend a few extra minutes on a project, you can never get your hands back.
"No amount of tap/hold/release layer fudging will make this efficiently useable for anything other than the most straight typing"
For you. It can very much be done, you just like moving your hands around more rather than go to those lengths. But then again, very few people would want to, so your advice is valid.
Yeah, ignoring the price, the lack of numeric keys is a deal breaker.
Much of the custom keyboard community and typist community now-a-days is really, really into Linears. Linear switches make up a lot of the market and a lot of the enthusiast focus. Especially with all the new spring types and having elongated stems/poles + longer springs or shorter springs, etc.
Meh.
I tried linears but i still hate it. Tactile is the way for me
Especially on r/ergokeyboards. Almost every post features light linear switches. Especially if they have low profile switches.
@@talareese580 I mean choc tactiles sucks
@@a._s.__h_ I've never tried them but that makes more sense. Do the choc clicky feel any good?
So, basically, it's a really expensive Dactyl Manuform? I fail to see where the price should come from. Is it really just the CNC metal?
probably mostly engineering and and the overhead that comes with setting up a production line for only manufacturing a few items.
I’m not saying it’s worth the price but it has way more features than a print at home keyboard, Qi charging, addressable RGB, Bluetooth, a warranty and all the costs involved with a company like advertising, manufacturing, design etc.
@@oxfordsparky You can put Bluetooth on a home-made keyboard. Not that I would want to, given how much of a headache all of the wireless systems on this keyboard are.
I'll take a cord if it means no Bluetooth latency, no pairing problems, and no batteries that degrade over time.
@@FlintTD I never understood the point of wireless keyboards. I thought the whole point of wireless was for portability but like... How often and how far do you need to take your keyboard from the PC? Mouse I can understand because some people are bothered by the cord dragging around. But yeah, I don't see a point in just, not having your keyboard plugged in.
Edit: Then I also saw your other comment. Very good point, giant charging pad completely removes the point of it being wireless in the first place. 😂
probably the nft thats attached to the purchase of the keyboard
8:45, yes Fran Fine! Your references are so cool!
Had to scroll way too far for this
I'm surprised that there aren't more split ergonomic keyboard like this.
they suck is why
because they're complex and niche, getting it right means expensive as fuck
it's actually quite common among the diy keyboards scene. The dactyl manuform is one of the most popular models to 3d print, and maybe that's the market research the makers needed to produce this specific product
Dactyl-Manuform. That's actually what this layout (the thumb cluster is the main thing) is called.
I use a Moonlander myself.
If you're comfortable with 3d printing and soldering you can make the same design for the price of a kinesis
not to mention kinesis is releasing the kinesis advantage360 this summer, a split version of their kinesis advantage keyboard. the kinesis advantage360 is going for $440
I'm tempted to say yes but 3d printing sounds like science fiction to me. I can only hope to find out some nerdy friend of mine has a 3d printer
Lads, you've missed it. It's the keyboard from Westworld the TV show, not a dactyl manuform copy. Not an ergo keyboard, just basically an homage keyboard
Exactly, the last bird was a rap on the cyber truck.
James, if you want an ergo keyboard with a function row - the Dactyl Manuform project can generate a parametric model with ANY amount of keys you desire.
For $1600 I'd upgrade just about everything on my PC EXCEPT the keyboard.
Well, I could either get a new GPU or just upgrade all the other components.
This is basically a dactyl manuform that you spend a ton more money for...
I'll stick to my printed dactyl
You all are the best, always so entertaining ! Have safe and Happy New Year everyone there
Same to you!
I like how their website doesn't say anything about this being a "Dactyl Manuform" keyboard. Very shady would not go anywhere near this company
$1600 is ridiculous, but I love the ergo keyboard reviews, keep doing them please.
James at full (This keyboard cost $1600) level sass is absolutely fantastic and I want more of it.
Basically prebuild *Dactyl Manuform*
Just built a split keyboard from Keebio. Ergonomic without the absurd layout of this, supply your own keycaps so you don't have these slippery nightmares, no silly wireless gimmick, you pick your own switches (tactile, please!), and all cost (a lot to be fair) but FAAAR less than this. Even if you want ergo, I don't understand who this is for. And it doesn't even work well...
My most recent Skelety build cost like $60 total. Another $40 or so and I could make it wireless and add RGB.
From my research into ergo keyboards the Dactyl Manuform looks like the most promising model. This is basically a perfect Dactyl Manuform. Quality engineering, wireless, convenience of standardized manufacturing. It's all I could ask for. Unfortunately the price point is way out of my budget.
For that price, I'd want hot swap and ability to change keycaps too. Also, ability to swap battery when it dies. Cool idea. Seems to have a learning curve.
Exactly.
I think hot swap is really just a noob friendly feature to attract suckers. If you don't know what switches you like then its completely moronic to spend 1600 on a keyboard lol. I don't want to swap my switches on a whim, I find my favorite switch and that's what I use. Its really annoying when your switches pop out every time you take off your keycaps. Hotswap also leads to the keyboard feeling less solid overall.
@@ecksdee7957 noob feature to attract suckers? Lolwut? I have multiple favorite switches. Often I'll switch an entire board out with new switches. How do you know which switches you want on a board you've never used? Not to mention resale value is higher because you dont need to unsolder to accomodate the buyer.
You must be using trash hardware - I've never had a switch pop out of the socket when removing a keycap. None of my builds with hotswap PCB "feel less solid" either. Methinks you've been done dirty with bad hardware homie
You can surely change the keycaps; the stem is standard MX. I also believe that the case is held together by screws, not glue, so you can actually service it. It is surprising that this is not hotswap, though.
you can change the keycaps of every mechanical keyboard, and even if the battery was swappable, would it be worth unscrewing everything just to switch it out? I do agree it is a cool idea, angry miao has had massive success with their cyberboard so I think they just trying what ever at this point, and everything has a learning curve, its why even though qwerty logically does not make sense, we all still use it. No one wants to relearn how to type, but for keyboard nerds and people with money burning in their pocket, this is still a worthy pickup, and the big SOLD OUT on their page is proof.
I'm 100% with you on the F-row. So obnoxious that nobody makes split boards with them. It doesn't interfere with the mouse or coffee cup in the middle. I tried a BFO 9000 but it's actually too wide so you can't get to the home row without looking. Really need the F row to start being the norm on splits.
@@cat-le1hf funny I do exactly this on my mod layer which I'm CONSTANTLY using as it's holding down space bar for my arrows, nav cluster, and modifiers... but I do have an F-Row and I still NEVER actually use my mod layer for F-keys.
Basically a 4x6 manuform but with no wrist rest. You guys should review one of our manuforms. Truthfully the manuform isn't a unique design anymore, you can make your own and there are open source designs.
Is this just a Dactyl Mnauform in a nicer package? You can put together that thing DIY for less than 50 dollars+switches+caps.
I would watch a channel with just this dude reviewing and making builds, he’s super chill
It’s amazing and I so would love to have it, but maybe $400-$500 max? It’s probably not a one off either.
I could maybe see 800$ for the quality of parts used but 1600$ is absolutely bonkers for what is essentially a dactyl manuform
I love the idea of ergo boards but I just can't imagine myself ever using one. Maybe in like another decade when my carpal tunnel is in critical condition, THEN i'll make the switch. lol and even then, ain't spending no $1600 on one. Especially one thats not even hotswap!
I took a leap and went with the Digma Raise. You get used to it pretty fast, but I just wish it came in a high-profile frame and function keys.
There are far cheaper options out there for both the split ergo boards like this one (Dactyl Manuform), and also other types like the TGR Alice and the boards that copied its layout (Arisu layout).
Try something like the Kinesis Freestyle, Ergodox Moonlander or Matias Ergo Pro. They're split designs with some adjustment possibilities, and cheap (well, compared to this one...) enough to be substantially less painful alternatives. Also, if you change now/soonish, you may never hit peak carpal, as a bonus.
That was my thought, at least, when I migrated to split keyboards in...'99, I think? With the Acer Future Ergo keyboard. Currently, I have a Kinesis Freestyle at work, a Matias Ergo Pro at home, and no carpal tunnel. Yet. Knock on wood.
Solder is where it’s at, hotswap is overrated
Having worked in IT support for decades it was very few people I found who used ergonomic keyboards. One person I remember used the ergonomic keyboard on a surface with the front of the surface pointed down.
So far I have not had issues with my wrists, or hands. Thing is I never typed all that fast, or kept my hands on the keyboard that long so that it might effect me. Worked with all types of host systems that used different keyboard layouts, and function keys. Today being old only work on my Logitech K750 Apple Keyboard since I have left the Windows, and Sun UNIX workstation world behind.
Working with software development as a hobby and then professionally, my wrists & hands started having issues before even leaving college. Switching layouts to Dvorak helped. With hobbyist keyboards now-a-days, getting an ergonomic keyboard can be done for about half the price of something like a kinesis advantage. I now have several ergonomic keyboards, just because they're comfortable to type on and they're relatively affordable.
I'm not really convinced yet with charging pads for things like mice and keyboard. If it was build into the desk, then sure but as extra thing you need to put on your desk and wire up it just seems to miss the mark for me.
I bought a cheap desk pad last year and I love it, it has some tacky RGB that I’ve turned off and a shitty speaker that I’ve disabled but it also has a convenient usb hub built into it that I plug the receiver for my wireless keyboard and mouse.
If they didn’t cost so much as a package I would definitely get a Qi charging desk pad and Qi mouse and keyboard, I’m happy enough with my basic Microsoft wireless desk top and rechargeable batteries, I’m not spending easily 10x the price to get Qi wireless.
5:33 literally every banana split, gat black ink, creamsicle, alpac v2, cream, milky yellow, c3 tangerine, aqua king v2, cherry mx black and Durock linear user: and I took that personally
Hidden David sneezing easter egg at 13:12
Got a good laugh from the Nanny reference. Never change James.
As soon as I hear NFT I know its a scam LMAO
"Fragrant in an offgassy way" is my new favorite description of the "new electronics smell".
As an ergodox user, I feel my keyboard blows this one out of the water in pretty much every way, and a still expensive but MUCH more reasonable price.
Also one thing I want to say: while both would be nice, is much rather have hotswappable switches than erroneous key heights. Having different resistances and feels to different keys was such an eye opener for me as a typist. Cannot recommend it enough.
This totally feels like a "Angry Villain Hacker" kinda product. With the futuristic look and the matrix green. Its a good look. But very much movie-hacker
I only like ergo products that aren't completely up their own ass.
So you don't like any ergo products?
@@kaldo_kaldo Incorrect. I daily-drive a ZSA moonlander.
@@harrisonlichtenberg3162 Their marketing says, "The NEXT GENERATION ergo keyboard" and "There's no other keyboard quite like it."
Since it's almost exactly like the ergodox, it sounds pretty up its own ass to me.
My bloody keyboard has worn out tops to the backlit screen but doesn't affect touch typists; however, I have some how managed to wear out my "F" and "J" nubs for centering on home row and I'm now crippled in using the fool keyboard in the strangest way I've ever experienced. Seriously didn't think a little bump was so necessary to being a touch typist, FYI.
The fact that there's NFTs involved makes it EXTREMELY likely they didn't care about the quality of the physical product. And the fact it's $1600 means it's only for the easily gullible. Even at $100 it would be a rip off.
"Even at $100 it would be a rip off" oh boy, you must know nothing about custom keyboards (even though this isn't a custom keyboard, keycults are very much a thing)
many people tested it the quality is impecable
I just got my corne board the other week and I am loving it I have no clue why people don’t switch to split boards more they are just sooo goood
It looks like something from a sci-fi movie. I like it, but I wouldn’t buy it or use it. But I think it’s a cool piece of art/design. The most ergonomic keyboard I’ve found is just using a regular keyboard that is very low profile. Haven’t had any wrist issues and I’m a developer in my mid-30s typing a lot all day and even into the night sometimes.
I'm 52 now. Wait until you hit your forties before realising that - although you tried to be 'ergonomic to a reasonable budget' for two decades - it was too little, and now too late, to go back and do it right the first and only time.
Like an old warehouse foreman after telling the new lad to 'keep your back upright and lift wi' yer legs'; you just know the youngsters (under 35) are going to ignore you, think they've re-invented the wheel and will all have the chance to regret their choices later in life. And regret it, they will.
Mr. Sheffield got me so, so good. Thanks for the throwback, James.
Five-axis CNC... I bet that they could have accomplished a similar esthetic using cast-steel for a whole lot less initial investment.
Or maybe they are just renting a machine, hence the price.
only keyboard enthusiasts are crazy enough to spend this much money on slightly improving peripherals. that being said, i’ll take 10 of these
It's a reasonable price over how much time it'd take me to make one. I did make my own so it was free, but that's ballpark how much the labor was worth. The dream is to have it be metal instead of plastic
$1600???? And no customizable.... This company is straight up crazy
So, uh. Why not, like, just use 3D printing and shave $1300 off from the price due to the CNC machining?
"which reminds me of the kenisis advantage two"
oh my god, if somebody told james the history of the kenesis -> dactyl manuform -> variants it would blow his mind
So let's get this straight: they STOLE the Dactyl Keyboard, and re-sold it for 1600 dolars? WTF? Dactyl is an open-source 3D printable keyboard. This looks exactly like it. They just shamelessly sold it for 1.6k
The nanny reference was so hilariously unexpected
I guess why hold back when you've found a bunch of suc... interested customers with large amounts of disposable wealth.
that's what NFTs are for
Ergo keyboards are small because not reaching for anything more than one row is the most ergo thing you can do. Reaching = strain.
For that price, I’m expecting several custom keyboards for different uses. Put that thing in full plastics and more than a grand cheaper… I still think it’s overpriced. Then again, I’m not part of the target market.
If by "several" you mean "2, maybe 3 if they're cheap" then yeah, you can get "several" custom keyboards for this price.
Turns out, by scrolling through the comments, the target market just 3d prints and wires up their own for much cheaper. lmao
“I’m Backspace more than I Enter.” I think we’ve got t-shirt here 🤔.
I would totally get something like this for 10x less the cost.
11:44 "All user input is error"
This is what every developer thinks. :D
Nice to see James doing some keyboard content again!
kinda funny that most of the comments said that it's not worth 1600 and looks kinda meh, welcome to the custom mechanical keyboard scene! this is probably still half way to the end game space because there are still keyboards that costs double or even triple the amount, not to mention keycaps, artisans, switches etc
The people at this company and Geistmaschine should be sentenced to hard labor for these prices
You’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg
3ildcat got a fancy 65w charger and a USB-C cable with it. I guess they didn’t send that to you.
Just get a dactyle
The Keyboardio Model 01 / 100 does a similar thing, but wired and using custom sculpted caps rather than the contoured case. The new model has hot swappable keys as well, plus their under-palm key for switching layers. It’s a great product at less than a quarter the price.
"Chairman meow"
I named my computer mouse on the Bluetooth settings chairman maose
Man the pop culture references in this ep are crayyyyyy good job, lol. that nanny refrence was niiiice
!
not saying I'd buy this but you gotta understand for something this complex and small batch, 1600 is actually kinda reasonable. whether they SHOULD make some small batch product so complex and hard to manufacture is another story
I love ergo keyboards and the practicality they can bring but this seems like a good example of form over function.
I'm not a keyboard aficionado but man this keyboard loosk AMAZING. Not 1600 amazing but it was for 200-300 USD I would be buying it in a heartbeat. I love the colors, love the layout and all the QOL stuff.
It charging at 85 isn't too much. Ideally you'd keep your lithium based batteries at 80-90% at all times to keep it happy and long lasting. There's tons of research into this.
Drop just launched a buy period for this, with an admittedly gorgeous limited deco option, but not 'down payment on a new car' gorgeous.
Ergo split community needs love hope more people get in so we get more variety
Why is the battery so big if its just a keyboard and is already constantly charging anyways?
When Apple tested their first wireless mouse they saw that lots of users just plugged in the cable assuming it wouldn't work without it. So they purposely redesigned the mouse to be useless with the cable plugged in to force users to use it wireless. Also one minute of charging gave you a few hours of usage, full charge number of months. So it wasn't Apple who was stupid, users were. I assume it's the same logic implemented here.
8:08 James has been quoting South Park forever. First time he says where it's from as far as I know. XD
So this is a Dactyl Manuform with a CNC case. Like the concept, but not for $1600. I’m now waiting for the Kinesis Advantage 360. Similar concept at 1/4 of the price.
No comment about the product, not an ergo user - But thumbs up for James; entertaining dude!
It looks pretty sick, but for 1600 bucks, I'd expect full customizability and repairability. This thing should last a lifetime for that price.
13:13 that camera shake XD
When will the merch store have an LTT keyboard? It could be a re-brand of the favorite keyboard of the LTT staff or something more custom than that.
It's not looking they used capacitive sensor keys for this keyboard. They are mostly silent but you should get used to is as they sometimes don't have any click point (you press and release but don't have a point to where you need to press the key down; it simply works; and you can drive nails with this keyboards).
I built a dactyl manuform for around 60 Euro plus two glasses of honey I gave the guy who printed the cases for me.
I mean, alright, this is well built, heavier, better case and all that. But this doesn’t sum up to 1600 dollars, sorry.
"I backspace more than I enter"
Same, James, same.
This is the kind of device that the next tech-inspired Bond villain will use. "No, Mr. Bond. I expect it to pair."
Pretty sure I heard a Nanny reference at 8:43. Love it
I'll be honest, this is luxury, it's funny looking, it's weird... good luck with it, I'll stick to my old fashioned keyboard
8:44 "The Nanny" reference that you didn't see coming.
i feel like i could legit fall in love with gaming with it. using the left side only and my mouse where the right side is. Also anyone complaining about the price. Im not trying to completely justify it, but i can tell you from experience that designing and modeling this keyboard would have taken an unimaginable amount of time. There are keyboards around 1k that are just normal ass rectangle keyboards.
Are there kits to build your own ergonomic keyboard? It'd be cool, either here or on LTT, to have a 3D printed ergonomic chassis and just to pop in a pre-built circuit board and keys. Split keyboards seem perfect for that, since they'd fit on even a standard Makerbot print bed.
There are hundreds of different kinds of kits, some sold as kits, many open source.
Yes there are! Some popular DIY ergo keyboards are lily58, corne, sofle. Most of them are usually open source too so you can modify the design however you want.
Please keep with James for keyboard content, as an idiot who spends several thousands per year on keyboards/keycaps he is the only one I can stand of you guys when it comes to keyboards (I know people like me are not the target audience, but still, he has the most keyboard knowledge out of your team for sure)