I like that he does these type of videos because he actually has a lot of user experience with ergo keyboards. His videos helped me with the decision to buy a ZSA moonlander which I absolutely love. Thanks James
I love my Moonlander, I've been using it for about two years now and I think it's worth every penny. I was apprehensive about making the jump to ergo but I don't think I'll ever go back to non-split.
@@yensteelmoonlanders thumb cluster is adjustable....i tend to change the thumbclusters orientation 2 times per day. so imo thumb cluster is game changer compared to ergodox...btw if you can 3d print the tilt set for moonlander..you can basically turn it into a ergodox
As a software engineer dealing with RSI issues, all the pain I was experiencing pretty much went away after the first day of using the KA360. Totally worth every penny imo.
RSI as a software engineer (or other PC based job) is super scary. I was hit myself and it's really only thanks to ergonomic keyboards that I can keep going. Personally I am fine with plastic Microsoft ergo keyboards though. Super low gamer cred but it's worth it -- and not $400.
its okay to spend this money on keyboards to treat this problem, but its NOT okay if you are spending this money on these keyboards while you are using a $30 office chair from Amazon or Walmart with little to no adjustment options or ergonomics. Not throwing any shade at you personally, just making a note on a popular comment for those who may be passing through. Your chair is #1 most important in ergonomics, then DESK at #2 before your keyboard and mouse. Its more important for your desk height, or the height that you interact with your keyboard and/or mouse at to be setting your arms to have about a 90 degree bend at the elbows, resting comfortably at your side with your chest open, and shoulder blades pulled back and down. Using a split keyboard is then the #3 most important to easily access the keyboard from within the ergonomic zone, then follows your mouse and the rest; but keep in mind, the further your arms are separated, the less tenting you need, so its important to get adjustable tenting if any rather than a set tented angle.
No offense taken. I also have the chair (aeron) and desk (fully) and agree those play a larger role in ergonomics. The rsi specifically was still there despite the chair and desk and went away with the kinesis.
Ye really love the idea of the KA360, but the F button on a separate layer is kinda annoying. I feel for devs F2, home, end, ctrl, shift and arrow keys are must have without Fn keys, otherwise those combo's are so annoying to get used to.
Yep, my thoughts exactly... it's so obvious that it's hard to understand why they didn't include it... especially with per-key-RGB, you could simply have those actually double-bound keys change colour depending on the mode. Would make it so much more usable, intuitive... ridiculous that a 450+ USD keyboard doesn't have such a basic UX feature.
The keys themselves don't even have translucent characters, so the backlight looks barely noticeable anyway. One would need to replace the keys with non-standard keys maybe even made just for that keyboard, or at LEAST they could have a single RGB LED indicator light somewhere that tells you what layer you're on...I type in a dark room often though, so see-through keys are a must for me, and RGB keys are very helpful. I've been looking at the Moonlander MKI keyboard, but its surfaces are flat, where the concave surfaces of the Kinesis Advantage360 would be ideal as they match the bend of your fingers as they curl and stretch...If it had see-through RGB keys. I'm even a power-user and would be fine either learning the layout or use their git repo to reprogram it. Stuck looking for that ideal keyboard forever lol
Yeah I have a Moonlander Mk1, and the RGB was really helpful early especially to colour code regions/buttons for what they did, also it helps if anyone else uses my keyboard, they ask which is spacebar, I can just say green on left thumb, and backspace is red on left thumb. Otherwise you're left trying to explain what is what. As for layers, yeah I have my numpad on layer 2 highlighted to make it as similar in area and layout to old numpad layouts for quick/easy access while working.
I bought one of Wooting’s non-rgb OSU keypads for the game and for undo/copy/paste macros, and I didn’t anticipate how useful it is to have RGB to indicate what layer it is on.
@@Sting_ray this is a valid point ngl but when majority use normal gamer keyboard, rgb and tactical clicks who would buy this. Btw i love the ergo keyboards but dont find useful on a long run.
@Sting_ray, Totally agree with you on this. If they were priced around €100-150, I'd definitely be inclined to give one a try. As a programmer, typing is essentially my entire day, so ergo keyboards are intriguing. While there are other ergonomic keyboards available at lower prices, they often come with significant drawbacks.
Though they've actually had that option for custom switches for a long time. Maybe they made it more visible? I ordered mine with box whites on 2022-10-24 and received it on 2023-01-09
hey james, i'd recommend the glove80. it's got a janky tenting system like you like and you can order it to build with any low profile switches. also is very carefully sculpted for keywells like the kinesis.
I have the 360 "signature" (which just means I got to choose my switches), and before that, I had the Kinesis Contoured (from ~2000). I do remember it took me a few days to adjust when I first started using them. However, at least for me, when I switch to a laptop or other non-ergo kb, my muscle memory switches too. Arrow keys, modifiers, backspace, etc are all not an issue. I even game with it, believe it or not. I was pretty amazed when they came out with the 360 because their old kbs used to be so .. old, and non-premium feeling. The 360 was a *significant* step up for them. It feels very thoughtfully designed and very premium. The whole having to compile and flash your own firmware to remap keys is more than a bit much though, I agree. To add an anecdote: back around 2011 when my contoured keyboard was 11 years old, it started having issues. I think some keys started sporadically not working. I emailed them and they sent out, free of charge on an 11-year old keyboard, a replacement logic board which fixed the issue. Their support has always been great.
I would say the glove80 has a less premium feel, but is way better than the advantage360. It fix a lot of the shortcoming said in the video and is cheaper!
What James said about moving backspace off his pinky is why I think every 60% keyboard should move the enter and backspace keys in 1 or 2 columns to make them closer to the home row, and just put the keys lost in a different layer. Either that or you can simply add a split spacebar to a 60% and make the left spacebar for backspace and right spacebar for space. It is remarkably easy to get used to this setup. On my 40% keyboard that moved the backspace in closer I made the split space into a shift and space which was actually amazing to type on. Shift and Space are both used at a consistent pace so it feels so good to get your thumbs moving in harmony with the rest of your fingers.
Agreed, the Logitech Wave keyboard was interesting because it's pretty cost effective and has sculpted keys. The Atreus 62 has always been my personal fave, and a lot of people like the Iris keyboard as well. They've covered the most famous ones already, such as the Kinesis advantage, Ergodox EZ, Planck, the moonlander, and the Truly ergonomic Cleave. Do you have any suggestions that they didn't cover?
They've been around a long time. I used them back in 2003 as my daily at work. It took some getting used to, but once you do they're really great. (It sounds like James wants the Kinesis Advantage II)
I can go back much further than that, I used an NEC one in the 1980's lol and if you want to go back further, in the 1930's they made ergonomic typewriters 🤣
The first ergo keyboard he ever tried was the Kinesis Advantage 2. He liked I think, but he didn't like that it was too close together for his shoulders. I also have that keyboard and have the same issue. This keyboard we just watched looks like it will fix all my issues
My first ergonomic keyboard was the Kinesis Freestyle. It was much more comfortable than the razer black widow I had before that. It was fine for gaming and much more comfortable. The advantage was way too pricy at the time but it's always been something I wanted to buy. I settled on the ergodox EZ, and it's said to be not as comfortable, but it's hotswappable.
I've got one too! I would recommend using the nuts to secure the legs as suggested in the guide. I didn't at first but now that I have, it stays rock solid at the angle that I want.
Hey, great video, this is, at least in my opinion, an upgrade over the videos done a few months ago. I have been avoiding ltt channels after the whole debacle a few months ago, but it's nice to see that more thought is being given to the production of the videos. The video was very informative and touched upon many usability and ergonomic aspects. Thanks!
Thank you! Please continue with these ergo keyboards. Your review of the Keymouse inspired me to spring for a Keymouse Track which basically saved my career. I was having a lot of ulnar nerve pain and it was the only thing that worked. Sadly, the company is dead so I can’t buy another.
It seems super cool! But yeah that's an expensive pricetag..... And no GUI for pro is a bit dumb but also understandable. Let me explain. It uses ZMK so it's an open-source firmware that (afaik) has no GUI. The Ergodox keyboard use QMX which ALSO don't have a GUI but they developped their own GUI for it. I'm guessing they weren't willing to develop a GUI for the crazy possibilities of ZMK, which I can understand. The real problem is the "professional" moniker for the ZMK model AND that it's the only one that is wireless. Having a model that's "for big keyboard geeks" with ZMK makes sense, and would have market. But they named it wrong and they tied mass market features to it that they shouldn't have.
Nitpicky, but QMK not QMX. Normally I don't want to be annoying about things like this but it's important to get that right as Googling QMX won't give you QMK results.
Have you tried the MoErgo Glove80 keyboard? That one is similar to this Kinesis but cheaper, fully programmable with mechanical switches and RGB 🤔 The more you know 🌈🌟
The Glove80 is still a $400 keyboard. Yes, technically cheaper, but not by that much. IMO the build quality looks way less solid / more delicate. I think that’s part of the trade off in features / cost / quality though. Still, I’d also be curious for a review of the Glove80; but I’m already using the 360 Pro.
Can you guys review a full spec dygma defy keyboard? I think sacrifices some aspects from this keyboard in favour of having more productivity/power user features (such as hot swappable keys, more keys, etc). It also has a low latency dongle and RGB for gamers. i personally think it's the best ergo keyboard so far.
Also on the Defy hypetrain, it arrived during the winter holidays, got used to it in like 2 weeks and been daily driving it ever since. The tenting system is really nice, the wireless dongle works well (though plugging it around multiple devices is annoying, and it doesn't work well with KVMs), and the underglow is really bright. It's perfect to display the layer you're on by just changing a few zones on the inside, if you prefer a clean aesthetic.
@@Excalibaard The tenting system on it is great, and for the price, you are certainly getting great build quality, not a cheap feeling plastic keyboard.
Why would they include ABS keycaps instead of PBT for the professional version? I may be mistaken but I'm pretty positive PBT keycaps are better quality and respond better to wear from daily use as opposed to ABS.
Layer switching is great on my 32 key keyboard. I use home row modifiers and my backspace and space keys on my thumbs also layer switch to stuff like arrows or numpad. I love it.
arrow keys should be on a thumb cluster. They should make a gaming edition that has at least 104 keys, RGB, red switches and maybe an optical upgrade option?
I actually have this keyboard, as well as both prior versions. I’ve been using them for years and I find they help tremendously with my wrist pain. I don’t use them for gaming (I have a standard keyboard for that), but these are fantastic for work, general typing and (with some learning curve) excel work.
The Glove80 is the keyboard this guy wants, and most people who are truly looking at split-ergo designs should go for. It has all features one would hope for in such a design, RGB, curved keywell, tenting, and a very optimal thumb cluster design + number of keys. It isn't the best in a few areas, but it is more than capable in just about all of them. Usually it's critqued for the tenting solution not being super convenient, but it's very much not an issue if you set it and forget it. Some users also prefer very minimal numbers of keys where the Glove80 clearly offers a full suite. Kinesis' thumb cluster is actually one of it's downfalls, which is a critical part of how one uses these kinds of keyboards.
Golly, the custom switch keyboard site has hand-lubed switches! Update: So um, every bell and whistle added on totalled $700 USD. Custom lubing, custom sound dampening, etc...
A lot of the same issues you have with this keyboard are the same with the glove80 which is the one that I was going to get. Then I found out the “unsoldered” version was just solder it yourself, not hot swap. Glad I found that out before buying it. My current solution was to buy a used moonlander for now so it wasn’t too expensive and then plan a dactyl manuform build
I have the advantage 360 (usb not Bluetooth) and it is hands down the best keyboard I’ve ever used. After your brain gets used to the moving of certain keys like arrow keys, it is smooth sailing. If ergonomics is a concern for you, this is the solution.
I rely on keyboards with a trackpoint in the middle, like IBM and Lenovo keyboards. They solved my RSI and allow me to sit back in my chair and move about without ever having to reach for a mouse. Give it 2 days and you'll get used to moving the mouse with it, it's very precise and feels great never needing to move you fingers from the home row.
8 месяцев назад+2
I would really love for you to check Keyboardio model 100 out and give that a review 😍
If youre looking for a ergo keyboard, I recommend looking into: Ferris, Glove80, Unicorne from Boardsource, Dactyl, Skeletyl, or an Iris which is a great entry to the space.
Using an ergo keyboard for gaming has been a total, well, game-changer for me. Though, by "ergo" I mean a cheap Redragon half-keyboard, which, while nothing like an ErgoDox, is a huge improvement for me - I have six buttons for my thumb and I'm able to keep my hands close together and at a comfortable angle. Sure, I've modded it a bit and want to do some more, but it was $30 *very* well spent.
I completely agree with your complaints and wish it had a thumbstick and mouse buttons built in so I wouldn't have to worry about moving my hands off the keyboard.
I'm not a fan of weird keyboard layouts, but kinesis does make a really nice split keyboard called the freestyle edge which adheres to the normal layout standards while providing excellent ergonomics.
Something like the Keychron Q10 is more friendly to people who aren't super into weird boards. It gives you the advantage of a split board, but with less of a learning curve because it's a unibody split 75% board. You get everything but a numpad in a relatively compact package if that's something you care for. Personally I'm all-in on weird keyboard layouts and use a QAZ keyboard on the daily, but I get most people aren't into that kind of thing.
Here's an extra tip for ergonomics if you're using a split keyboard: put a trackpad in the middle. It's very reachable by BOTH hands and feels really good. I also use a mouse. =)
Cleave user here, loved the old model, love the Cleave, using red switches. Would like to have a Kinesis too but in any case, the central thumb keys are great (and that the TE keyboards shift CTRL and SHIFT up by one row).
Sounds odd, but this keyboard was a lifesaver for me. I'm a software developer and as my workload ramped up I started dealing with lots of pain. I took the gamble and spent the big bucks on this keyboard almost 2 years ago. Pain free since. Definitely worth it if you're in a similar boat.
Nice video, but more keys is NOT more productive than running fewer keys with layers, I also used to think so. Right now Im running a 34 key, it only has the letter alphas and two thumb keys on each half. Never worked or typed faster than on this board, and I type roughly 120wpm, nothing to write home about but still considered fast.
I’m running a 36 key layout with Colmak-Dk. Totally agree layers are better than more keys, using less keys is way more comfortable and efficient. Been loving this keyboard. Got extra layers for Uk and US keyboard layouts.
I am the last person to care about fancy keyboards, I think today's PC enthusiast's obsession with how every damn key feels and looks is asinine but that being said this video did help me understand why I am having neck/shoulder pains and I'll be saving up for a split keyboard even if it's not the one from the video.
All of the major complaints (f keys, better reprogram keys, and rgb) is solved with the moergo Glove80. It is better in almost every way. The only "issue" is that the key switches are also not hot swappable. But there are people who will solder any keyswitch you want, for you. Highly recommend the Glove80
That capslock position is amazing. Escape is the key you use to enter normal mode in vim. As a dev you are effectively forced to remap escape, most commonly to the capslock position. Capslock can be... anywhere it wants. In traditional keyboards it's in prime real estate territory and almost completely useless. Majorly agree about the key remapping however.
If you get the wired version of the advantage 360 you get the cheap and easy version. I specifically did not go wireless pro for this very reason. I have an advantage 2 and the advantage 360. I use the 2 at home and the 360 at work all day every day. I LOVE them both. so worth the money.
I think I still believe that 36 keys is the holy grail of split ergo keyboards, absolutely zero stretching for any keys, just a larger learning curve as you need more layers to make it work. That said, there’s no decent 36 key options on the market, only open source projects you’re building from scratch, so if you don’t want to build it yourself, this seems like the best one out there IMO, it’s what I’d buy if I had to give up 36 key options
one thing though, The kinesis advantage has a better "key well", i'm daily driving the 360 but every time i switch to my old one, it just feels better. This one has a few benefits (wireless and extra mod keys) and split layout. but if I could just directly split advantage pro, i'd probably stay with that one.
After searching for about 3 weeks. I ended up going with the Cyboard Imprint. Crazzyyyy ergo keyboard that's custom built for every customers hands. Cost ~$800 USD with all the upgrades and features I wanted (integrated trackball, aluminum backplate, etc) 😅
I've had a Kinesis Advantage for almost 13 years. The USB cable contacts finally broke from plugging it in every day over several years. They still support those older models with replacement parts. I can't remember what I paid, but over the years I've had it, it has NOT been expensive to own. I'm actually considering the 360 but I'm curious how it is to lose the Fn keys. I use them all the time.
I have the Kinesis Advantage 360 and it is a brilliant keyboard. However I would strongly suggest you get the regular cabled version, the pro is not as good, even if it supports ZMK.
Thanks for your review. I am currently using a Kinesis Advantage2 LF keyboard, for years and I love it. Note I have never used the rebinding/remapping of keys. I find that option useless for most users. I am thinking of buying another one for my workplace, but the Advantage2 is wired and I would need a wireless option, which the 360 offers. But damm the price is crazy. Also I live in Europe, so the options are limited and/or I have to pay some extra fees... Other cons are : - My usage is assymetric because I am using my mouse on my right hand. I think they should find a mouse integration into the keyboard, as an option : perhaps a trackball i could move with my thumb ? i was thinking of adding something like that to the keyboard but i didn't find any good option. - My mouse is a logitech and my keyboard a Kinesis, so I got 2 USB ports taken, or it needs 2 dongles to my knowledge. It would be nice to plug the whatever mouse on the keyboard and only link the keyboard (basically, I want to plug only 1 thing on my computer that supports keyboard + mouse). - it is taking a lot of space on my desk, and I cant pass cable underneath (for my headphone for example). Here again, considering the volume of the keyboard, I think it could rather serve as an interface where we plug mouse, headphone, usb stick, etc... rather than just a keyboard. Instead of investing on key remapping, I believe they should move towards that interface system, and it would in my opinion justify the price.
This keyboard peaked my interest but I'm glad for your review. I need all the keys generally where they are, it's hard to change after 30 years of typing and gaming (and the pain that those caused). I am still using the MS ergo keyboard. I am going to check out the cleave and see if that will work for me.
These look pretty cool, but honestly I *adore* my Moonlander. I've got the stands for it, so I don't have their weird tenting system. I'll never go back to another keyboard for productivity. The price tag was *steep* but, in retrospect, worth it.
I use an Ergo Dox Pro. I bought it like 6-7 years ago. It went through a tornado (with me). I managed to lose the main cable that runs from the right keyboard to the computer... and they just sent one to me for free. It still works like the day I bought it. Once a year or so, I do have to take off the keycaps, and clean out the hair and nonsense that gets stuck under them. But... that's literally the only complaint. It's great, durable, and the company is pretty cool.
I'm surprised you guys haven't looked at the Keychron Q11 yet. It's what I use and I love it so much. I don't find any need to tent my hands when I spread my hands anyway. I only really want tenting when I have to move my hands close together in a REGULAR keyboard. I find it easier to hit the keys when I leave my hands naturally rotated slightly instead of flat, on the flat keyboard. Tenting the keyboard feels unnatural and uncomfortable to me. Thats just my opinion on split keyboards with staggered keys, though, and want to try a few ortho split boards, but I don't wanna give up my F-row and arrow keys.
Kinesis Freestyle2 is your keyboard then: standard layout, still has the tenting and separation features, cheaper too. Be sure to get the VIP kit for the wrist rest and the pronation lifters
It might sound condescending, but ZMK isn't difficult at all. Sure, it's not a GUI app, far from it. But once you set it up by just following the instructions - almost everything happens automatically. In return, you get customization options rivaled only by QMK, and can sleep soundly knowing that your keyboard uses open-source firmware, so you'll get new features, updates and bugfixes even if Kinesis goes out of business.
im into the topic as well, happy w moonlander mk2. really good vid he knows what hes talking about, always considered the kinesis one but stuff like bluetooth, non switchable keys and non ez programmability is a no go for me. thx again!
11:25 That is because the ZMK project is not from Kinesis, I suppose they use it because is open source and many wriless Bluetooth keyboard projects use it. However I don't understand why they did not use a dongle that communicate with they keyboard (no using Bluetooth) and put QMK in the dongle with VIA support. They have the resources to do that, if open project like the redox can do that Kinesis can also do it.
Been using this for a few month at work as a software developer. I don't really need to remap anything, I solve that by just using Linux. That being said, the escape key placement is amazing, used to remap caps to escape. Its probably my most used key by far. It has like a week long learning curve though but well worth it. When it comes to the function keys, you get used to just holding an fn button to access them within minutes, just like you probably already do on your laptop. I use Vim (btw) so hjkl are my "arrows" already. Overall for a developer i'd say they hit the mark spot on with most things with this keyboard. I'd most likely not use it for gaming, but for navigating your computer and writing code it's Amazing!
Let me ask, as a fellow vimmer: what if you moved Esc away from your little finger completely and put it on a thumb key. I made that mod to my key map on my Advantage Pro (predecessor to the Advantage 2) prior to the 360 Pro ever shipping. I think it’s pretty awesome. I’ve had CapsLock mapped to Ctrl for more than a decade, though, so didn’t want to have that as my Esc key.
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I like that he does these type of videos because he actually has a lot of user experience with ergo keyboards. His videos helped me with the decision to buy a ZSA moonlander which I absolutely love. Thanks James
I love my Moonlander, I've been using it for about two years now and I think it's worth every penny. I was apprehensive about making the jump to ergo but I don't think I'll ever go back to non-split.
Compared to the Ergodox, how does it fare in terms of comfort and usability?
moonlander is arguably the best one out there is until they come up with something more insane.
@@yensteelmoonlanders thumb cluster is adjustable....i tend to change the thumbclusters orientation 2 times per day. so imo thumb cluster is game changer compared to ergodox...btw if you can 3d print the tilt set for moonlander..you can basically turn it into a ergodox
As a software engineer dealing with RSI issues, all the pain I was experiencing pretty much went away after the first day of using the KA360. Totally worth every penny imo.
RSI as a software engineer (or other PC based job) is super scary. I was hit myself and it's really only thanks to ergonomic keyboards that I can keep going.
Personally I am fine with plastic Microsoft ergo keyboards though. Super low gamer cred but it's worth it -- and not $400.
its okay to spend this money on keyboards to treat this problem, but its NOT okay if you are spending this money on these keyboards while you are using a $30 office chair from Amazon or Walmart with little to no adjustment options or ergonomics. Not throwing any shade at you personally, just making a note on a popular comment for those who may be passing through. Your chair is #1 most important in ergonomics, then DESK at #2 before your keyboard and mouse. Its more important for your desk height, or the height that you interact with your keyboard and/or mouse at to be setting your arms to have about a 90 degree bend at the elbows, resting comfortably at your side with your chest open, and shoulder blades pulled back and down. Using a split keyboard is then the #3 most important to easily access the keyboard from within the ergonomic zone, then follows your mouse and the rest; but keep in mind, the further your arms are separated, the less tenting you need, so its important to get adjustable tenting if any rather than a set tented angle.
No offense taken. I also have the chair (aeron) and desk (fully) and agree those play a larger role in ergonomics. The rsi specifically was still there despite the chair and desk and went away with the kinesis.
Ye really love the idea of the KA360, but the F button on a separate layer is kinda annoying. I feel for devs F2, home, end, ctrl, shift and arrow keys are must have without Fn keys, otherwise those combo's are so annoying to get used to.
With multi-layer keyboards I think RGB is so useful as a layer indicator, so you can quickly tell what layer your on, an easy check.
Yep, my thoughts exactly... it's so obvious that it's hard to understand why they didn't include it... especially with per-key-RGB, you could simply have those actually double-bound keys change colour depending on the mode.
Would make it so much more usable, intuitive... ridiculous that a 450+ USD keyboard doesn't have such a basic UX feature.
The keys themselves don't even have translucent characters, so the backlight looks barely noticeable anyway. One would need to replace the keys with non-standard keys maybe even made just for that keyboard, or at LEAST they could have a single RGB LED indicator light somewhere that tells you what layer you're on...I type in a dark room often though, so see-through keys are a must for me, and RGB keys are very helpful. I've been looking at the Moonlander MKI keyboard, but its surfaces are flat, where the concave surfaces of the Kinesis Advantage360 would be ideal as they match the bend of your fingers as they curl and stretch...If it had see-through RGB keys.
I'm even a power-user and would be fine either learning the layout or use their git repo to reprogram it. Stuck looking for that ideal keyboard forever lol
Yeah I have a Moonlander Mk1, and the RGB was really helpful early especially to colour code regions/buttons for what they did, also it helps if anyone else uses my keyboard, they ask which is spacebar, I can just say green on left thumb, and backspace is red on left thumb. Otherwise you're left trying to explain what is what.
As for layers, yeah I have my numpad on layer 2 highlighted to make it as similar in area and layout to old numpad layouts for quick/easy access while working.
I bought one of Wooting’s non-rgb OSU keypads for the game and for undo/copy/paste macros, and I didn’t anticipate how useful it is to have RGB to indicate what layer it is on.
I was thinking the same thing, why didn't they think about this?
I love these types of keyboards, and I'd love to try one myself, but that price is an absolute killer.
Bro think this is a niche market only few of us are going to buy. I don't think the company can sustain
@@Twentizzcounter argument: if they were cheaper, maybe more people would buy them and so total profits could theoretically be higher.
@@Sting_ray this is a valid point ngl but when majority use normal gamer keyboard, rgb and tactical clicks who would buy this. Btw i love the ergo keyboards but dont find useful on a long run.
@@TwentizzTheir Advantage series keyboards have been around since the early ‘00s.
@Sting_ray, Totally agree with you on this. If they were priced around €100-150, I'd definitely be inclined to give one a try. As a programmer, typing is essentially my entire day, so ergo keyboards are intriguing. While there are other ergonomic keyboards available at lower prices, they often come with significant drawbacks.
I love the way you guys shared the update since you filmed the video! Great way to make corrections!
Though they've actually had that option for custom switches for a long time. Maybe they made it more visible? I ordered mine with box whites on 2022-10-24 and received it on 2023-01-09
hey james, i'd recommend the glove80. it's got a janky tenting system like you like and you can order it to build with any low profile switches. also is very carefully sculpted for keywells like the kinesis.
I hope James reviews the Glove80!
I have the 360 "signature" (which just means I got to choose my switches), and before that, I had the Kinesis Contoured (from ~2000). I do remember it took me a few days to adjust when I first started using them. However, at least for me, when I switch to a laptop or other non-ergo kb, my muscle memory switches too. Arrow keys, modifiers, backspace, etc are all not an issue. I even game with it, believe it or not. I was pretty amazed when they came out with the 360 because their old kbs used to be so .. old, and non-premium feeling. The 360 was a *significant* step up for them. It feels very thoughtfully designed and very premium. The whole having to compile and flash your own firmware to remap keys is more than a bit much though, I agree.
To add an anecdote: back around 2011 when my contoured keyboard was 11 years old, it started having issues. I think some keys started sporadically not working. I emailed them and they sent out, free of charge on an 11-year old keyboard, a replacement logic board which fixed the issue. Their support has always been great.
How is it for gaming? Do you encounter and disadvantages or advantages?
I would say the glove80 has a less premium feel, but is way better than the advantage360.
It fix a lot of the shortcoming said in the video and is cheaper!
James is so much better at Short Circuits than some others... He actually does some research and testing before filming.
What James said about moving backspace off his pinky is why I think every 60% keyboard should move the enter and backspace keys in 1 or 2 columns to make them closer to the home row, and just put the keys lost in a different layer.
Either that or you can simply add a split spacebar to a 60% and make the left spacebar for backspace and right spacebar for space. It is remarkably easy to get used to this setup.
On my 40% keyboard that moved the backspace in closer I made the split space into a shift and space which was actually amazing to type on. Shift and Space are both used at a consistent pace so it feels so good to get your thumbs moving in harmony with the rest of your fingers.
Btw, LOVE to see a review of an ergo keyboard. Always super happy to see them. Can't ever have too many opinions of them
Agreed, the Logitech Wave keyboard was interesting because it's pretty cost effective and has sculpted keys. The Atreus 62 has always been my personal fave, and a lot of people like the Iris keyboard as well.
They've covered the most famous ones already, such as the Kinesis advantage, Ergodox EZ, Planck, the moonlander, and the Truly ergonomic Cleave. Do you have any suggestions that they didn't cover?
That ESC key is for VIM users for sureeee!!! 😂😂
That's what I was thinking, I hate using ctrl+c to exit to visual mode, but reaching for esc just kills my flow.
I've had caps lock rebound to escape for years for this exact reason
It is! But the arrow cluster is not :) I bet they have a navigation layer with jkl; arrows
binding capslock to escape is very convenient.
Probably why prime is using it lol
Would love you to review the Glove80. It's also not everything I want but since that isn't out there, I think a comparison would be illuminating.
I'm using a glove80. It solves most of the problems you mentioned. An F key row, easy GUI remapping software, and rgb
They've been around a long time. I used them back in 2003 as my daily at work. It took some getting used to, but once you do they're really great. (It sounds like James wants the Kinesis Advantage II)
I can go back much further than that, I used an NEC one in the 1980's lol and if you want to go back further, in the 1930's they made ergonomic typewriters 🤣
They used one in the first Men In Black movie.
@@locutusuk68 I'm talking about specifically the Kinesis keyboards.
The first ergo keyboard he ever tried was the Kinesis Advantage 2. He liked I think, but he didn't like that it was too close together for his shoulders. I also have that keyboard and have the same issue. This keyboard we just watched looks like it will fix all my issues
My first ergonomic keyboard was the Kinesis Freestyle. It was much more comfortable than the razer black widow I had before that. It was fine for gaming and much more comfortable. The advantage was way too pricy at the time but it's always been something I wanted to buy. I settled on the ergodox EZ, and it's said to be not as comfortable, but it's hotswappable.
I think I'd go for the Dygma Defy instead. Even more looking at the price.
I like how everytime there's a ergo keyboard video on shortcircuit, James had to explain what ergo keyboards do all over again. 😂
James spotted.
No that’s a keyboard.
Common mistake
Senior egonomics engineer at LTT.
James wellness check ✅
Glove 80 review/unboxing any time soon?
I e been a Software Engineer for over 20 years, I’ve had this keyboard for a week and the only thing I’m angry about is that I didn’t get one sooner!
Please unbox the Glove80 as a comparison!
I think James needs to check out the glove 80. Has Function keys and is very similar
I'm happy that a 60% ortho board solved all my ergonomic issues. Tried these spilt ones but couldn't get used to them.
You’re the best James this is such an informative, detailed perfectly paced video. I appreciate y’all so much and I love your voice.
You should try the glove80!
I've got the MoErgo Glove80 which is a similar split design. I like it a lot but my one complaint is the "tenting" system for it is very finicky
I've got one too! I would recommend using the nuts to secure the legs as suggested in the guide. I didn't at first but now that I have, it stays rock solid at the angle that I want.
You should look into the MoErgo Glove 80
Kinesis Gaming user for years. Enjoying my F keys
Yeah seems like it might be good for gaming, though probably takes some getting used to. What model are you using ?
@@Gatorade69 freestyle edge. The non RGB one. Really wish they supported qmk, but the text files are time for backing up the configuration.
@JosephHarry that's a great keyboard. I really liked it. Love the text file thing, I wish they added that as an option on the 360 pro
Hey, great video, this is, at least in my opinion, an upgrade over the videos done a few months ago. I have been avoiding ltt channels after the whole debacle a few months ago, but it's nice to see that more thought is being given to the production of the videos. The video was very informative and touched upon many usability and ergonomic aspects. Thanks!
Thank you! Please continue with these ergo keyboards. Your review of the Keymouse inspired me to spring for a Keymouse Track which basically saved my career. I was having a lot of ulnar nerve pain and it was the only thing that worked. Sadly, the company is dead so I can’t buy another.
I was anxiously awaiting one of their keyboards as well.
I would recommend trying the Dygma Defy! It's ortholinear and multi connectivity (BT, RF and wired) but not so bulky.
It seems super cool! But yeah that's an expensive pricetag.....
And no GUI for pro is a bit dumb but also understandable. Let me explain. It uses ZMK so it's an open-source firmware that (afaik) has no GUI. The Ergodox keyboard use QMX which ALSO don't have a GUI but they developped their own GUI for it. I'm guessing they weren't willing to develop a GUI for the crazy possibilities of ZMK, which I can understand.
The real problem is the "professional" moniker for the ZMK model AND that it's the only one that is wireless. Having a model that's "for big keyboard geeks" with ZMK makes sense, and would have market. But they named it wrong and they tied mass market features to it that they shouldn't have.
Nitpicky, but QMK not QMX. Normally I don't want to be annoying about things like this but it's important to get that right as Googling QMX won't give you QMK results.
There is gui for zmk but it connects to the github account
There are OpenSource GUI configurators available for the 360 Pro. They even allow you to add features like home row mods and tap dance.
Just do the Glove 80 already.
Have you tried the MoErgo Glove80 keyboard? That one is similar to this Kinesis but cheaper, fully programmable with mechanical switches and RGB 🤔
The more you know 🌈🌟
The Glove80 is still a $400 keyboard. Yes, technically cheaper, but not by that much. IMO the build quality looks way less solid / more delicate. I think that’s part of the trade off in features / cost / quality though. Still, I’d also be curious for a review of the Glove80; but I’m already using the 360 Pro.
I just got an adavntge 360 after three years of the adavntage 2. If you type a lot it's the best keyboard money can buy imo.
Can you guys review a full spec dygma defy keyboard?
I think sacrifices some aspects from this keyboard in favour of having more productivity/power user features (such as hot swappable keys, more keys, etc). It also has a low latency dongle and RGB for gamers.
i personally think it's the best ergo keyboard so far.
I just got my Dygma Defy. It really checked all the boxes. Highly recommend.
Also on the Defy hypetrain, it arrived during the winter holidays, got used to it in like 2 weeks and been daily driving it ever since.
The tenting system is really nice, the wireless dongle works well (though plugging it around multiple devices is annoying, and it doesn't work well with KVMs), and the underglow is really bright. It's perfect to display the layer you're on by just changing a few zones on the inside, if you prefer a clean aesthetic.
@@Excalibaard The tenting system on it is great, and for the price, you are certainly getting great build quality, not a cheap feeling plastic keyboard.
The price is high, but my god was this keyboard worth it. No more RSI pain, I can actually work all day without thinking twice.
I'm sure there's some other recommendations but Glove 80. I've been looking at that one but haven't made up my mind yet.
You should review the MoErgo Glove80!
Why would they include ABS keycaps instead of PBT for the professional version? I may be mistaken but I'm pretty positive PBT keycaps are better quality and respond better to wear from daily use as opposed to ABS.
Layer switching is great on my 32 key keyboard. I use home row modifiers and my backspace and space keys on my thumbs also layer switch to stuff like arrows or numpad. I love it.
imagine an LTT ergo keyboard - it would take 30 years
arrow keys should be on a thumb cluster. They should make a gaming edition that has at least 104 keys, RGB, red switches and maybe an optical upgrade option?
I love my Kinesis Advantage2 enough that I have two. After remapping some keys, they've been great. I may have to treat myself to the 360.
I actually have this keyboard, as well as both prior versions. I’ve been using them for years and I find they help tremendously with my wrist pain. I don’t use them for gaming (I have a standard keyboard for that), but these are fantastic for work, general typing and (with some learning curve) excel work.
The Glove80 is the keyboard this guy wants, and most people who are truly looking at split-ergo designs should go for. It has all features one would hope for in such a design, RGB, curved keywell, tenting, and a very optimal thumb cluster design + number of keys. It isn't the best in a few areas, but it is more than capable in just about all of them. Usually it's critqued for the tenting solution not being super convenient, but it's very much not an issue if you set it and forget it. Some users also prefer very minimal numbers of keys where the Glove80 clearly offers a full suite.
Kinesis' thumb cluster is actually one of it's downfalls, which is a critical part of how one uses these kinds of keyboards.
Golly, the custom switch keyboard site has hand-lubed switches!
Update: So um, every bell and whistle added on totalled $700 USD. Custom lubing, custom sound dampening, etc...
A lot of the same issues you have with this keyboard are the same with the glove80 which is the one that I was going to get. Then I found out the “unsoldered” version was just solder it yourself, not hot swap. Glad I found that out before buying it. My current solution was to buy a used moonlander for now so it wasn’t too expensive and then plan a dactyl manuform build
I have the advantage 360 (usb not Bluetooth) and it is hands down the best keyboard I’ve ever used. After your brain gets used to the moving of certain keys like arrow keys, it is smooth sailing. If ergonomics is a concern for you, this is the solution.
Which switches do you have and are you happy with that choice?
I use a custom dactyl manuform at work, very comfy when it's in the right spot. Way too high effort to build though
I rely on keyboards with a trackpoint in the middle, like IBM and Lenovo keyboards. They solved my RSI and allow me to sit back in my chair and move about without ever having to reach for a mouse. Give it 2 days and you'll get used to moving the mouse with it, it's very precise and feels great never needing to move you fingers from the home row.
I would really love for you to check Keyboardio model 100 out and give that a review 😍
If youre looking for a ergo keyboard, I recommend looking into: Ferris, Glove80, Unicorne from Boardsource, Dactyl, Skeletyl, or an Iris which is a great entry to the space.
Using an ergo keyboard for gaming has been a total, well, game-changer for me. Though, by "ergo" I mean a cheap Redragon half-keyboard, which, while nothing like an ErgoDox, is a huge improvement for me - I have six buttons for my thumb and I'm able to keep my hands close together and at a comfortable angle. Sure, I've modded it a bit and want to do some more, but it was $30 *very* well spent.
I completely agree with your complaints and wish it had a thumbstick and mouse buttons built in so I wouldn't have to worry about moving my hands off the keyboard.
Definitely need to try the Glove80, I absolutely love mine.
Get a UHK, when you want to be more compatible with your laptop, but still get many benefits. But you need to use layers.
I'm a Dygma Raise user, and it seems way more functional than the Kinesis.
I'm not a fan of weird keyboard layouts, but kinesis does make a really nice split keyboard called the freestyle edge which adheres to the normal layout standards while providing excellent ergonomics.
Something like the Keychron Q10 is more friendly to people who aren't super into weird boards. It gives you the advantage of a split board, but with less of a learning curve because it's a unibody split 75% board. You get everything but a numpad in a relatively compact package if that's something you care for. Personally I'm all-in on weird keyboard layouts and use a QAZ keyboard on the daily, but I get most people aren't into that kind of thing.
fuck yeah! i’ve been waiting for james’ ergo keyboard reviews to return
Here's an extra tip for ergonomics if you're using a split keyboard: put a trackpad in the middle. It's very reachable by BOTH hands and feels really good. I also use a mouse. =)
Cleave user here, loved the old model, love the Cleave, using red switches. Would like to have a Kinesis too but in any case, the central thumb keys are great (and that the TE keyboards shift CTRL and SHIFT up by one row).
Sounds odd, but this keyboard was a lifesaver for me. I'm a software developer and as my workload ramped up I started dealing with lots of pain. I took the gamble and spent the big bucks on this keyboard almost 2 years ago. Pain free since. Definitely worth it if you're in a similar boat.
Been long time but James definitely got more manager looks, then his old ltt writer look
James is the reason I switched to using a 45degree mouse and yesterday I finally got the Moonlander Ive had my eye on for a few yearx now
Nice video, but more keys is NOT more productive than running fewer keys with layers, I also used to think so. Right now Im running a 34 key, it only has the letter alphas and two thumb keys on each half. Never worked or typed faster than on this board, and I type roughly 120wpm, nothing to write home about but still considered fast.
I’m running a 36 key layout with Colmak-Dk. Totally agree layers are better than more keys, using less keys is way more comfortable and efficient. Been loving this keyboard.
Got extra layers for Uk and US keyboard layouts.
He's not saying it's more productive.
@@punkasaurian3055he did say it was more productive.
I am the last person to care about fancy keyboards, I think today's PC enthusiast's obsession with how every damn key feels and looks is asinine but that being said this video did help me understand why I am having neck/shoulder pains and I'll be saving up for a split keyboard even if it's not the one from the video.
All of the major complaints (f keys, better reprogram keys, and rgb) is solved with the moergo Glove80. It is better in almost every way. The only "issue" is that the key switches are also not hot swappable. But there are people who will solder any keyswitch you want, for you. Highly recommend the Glove80
Finally the best keyboard is getting some recognition, now switch to Dvorak also! 👏🏻🤠
Dvorak for typing; ESDF for gaming.
That capslock position is amazing.
Escape is the key you use to enter normal mode in vim. As a dev you are effectively forced to remap escape, most commonly to the capslock position.
Capslock can be... anywhere it wants. In traditional keyboards it's in prime real estate territory and almost completely useless.
Majorly agree about the key remapping however.
This keyboard looks amazing. I only wish they kept the regular key layout in place.
If you get the wired version of the advantage 360 you get the cheap and easy version. I specifically did not go wireless pro for this very reason. I have an advantage 2 and the advantage 360. I use the 2 at home and the 360 at work all day every day. I LOVE them both. so worth the money.
Review the Dygma Defy!! You'll love it!!
As a dev trying to prevent rsi, I am with you on the lack of key issue. I don't mind sacrifices in exchange for easy macro keys and function row.
I think I still believe that 36 keys is the holy grail of split ergo keyboards, absolutely zero stretching for any keys, just a larger learning curve as you need more layers to make it work.
That said, there’s no decent 36 key options on the market, only open source projects you’re building from scratch, so if you don’t want to build it yourself, this seems like the best one out there IMO, it’s what I’d buy if I had to give up 36 key options
one thing though, The kinesis advantage has a better "key well", i'm daily driving the 360 but every time i switch to my old one, it just feels better. This one has a few benefits (wireless and extra mod keys) and split layout. but if I could just directly split advantage pro, i'd probably stay with that one.
After searching for about 3 weeks. I ended up going with the Cyboard Imprint. Crazzyyyy ergo keyboard that's custom built for every customers hands. Cost ~$800 USD with all the upgrades and features I wanted (integrated trackball, aluminum backplate, etc) 😅
I've had a Kinesis Advantage for almost 13 years. The USB cable contacts finally broke from plugging it in every day over several years. They still support those older models with replacement parts. I can't remember what I paid, but over the years I've had it, it has NOT been expensive to own.
I'm actually considering the 360 but I'm curious how it is to lose the Fn keys. I use them all the time.
Glove80 ftw
As a recent Glove 80 purchaser, 100% agree 🙌
hyped for the dygma raise 2. been happily using the raise v1 for 3 years
Continue your ergonomic journey with our Dygma Defy! You won't regret it
Dygma Raise fan and user here -- but don't get me started on the tenting kit.
I have the Kinesis Advantage 360 and it is a brilliant keyboard. However I would strongly suggest you get the regular cabled version, the pro is not as good, even if it supports ZMK.
Thanks for your review. I am currently using a Kinesis Advantage2 LF keyboard, for years and I love it.
Note I have never used the rebinding/remapping of keys. I find that option useless for most users.
I am thinking of buying another one for my workplace, but the Advantage2 is wired and I would need a wireless option, which the 360 offers.
But damm the price is crazy. Also I live in Europe, so the options are limited and/or I have to pay some extra fees...
Other cons are :
- My usage is assymetric because I am using my mouse on my right hand. I think they should find a mouse integration into the keyboard, as an option : perhaps a trackball i could move with my thumb ? i was thinking of adding something like that to the keyboard but i didn't find any good option.
- My mouse is a logitech and my keyboard a Kinesis, so I got 2 USB ports taken, or it needs 2 dongles to my knowledge. It would be nice to plug the whatever mouse on the keyboard and only link the keyboard (basically, I want to plug only 1 thing on my computer that supports keyboard + mouse).
- it is taking a lot of space on my desk, and I cant pass cable underneath (for my headphone for example). Here again, considering the volume of the keyboard, I think it could rather serve as an interface where we plug mouse, headphone, usb stick, etc... rather than just a keyboard. Instead of investing on key remapping, I believe they should move towards that interface system, and it would in my opinion justify the price.
More brands should make a numpad with seperate arrow key cluster for all these ergo keyboards (there are some already)
This keyboard peaked my interest but I'm glad for your review. I need all the keys generally where they are, it's hard to change after 30 years of typing and gaming (and the pain that those caused). I am still using the MS ergo keyboard. I am going to check out the cleave and see if that will work for me.
you should check out the glove 80
James I would like to get your take on the eglove 80 and the moon lander keyboards. The eglove 80 is the keyboard you described even has rgb
eglove? e?
These look pretty cool, but honestly I *adore* my Moonlander. I've got the stands for it, so I don't have their weird tenting system. I'll never go back to another keyboard for productivity.
The price tag was *steep* but, in retrospect, worth it.
I use an Ergo Dox Pro. I bought it like 6-7 years ago. It went through a tornado (with me). I managed to lose the main cable that runs from the right keyboard to the computer... and they just sent one to me for free. It still works like the day I bought it.
Once a year or so, I do have to take off the keycaps, and clean out the hair and nonsense that gets stuck under them. But... that's literally the only complaint. It's great, durable, and the company is pretty cool.
review the glove 80 next
I'm surprised you guys haven't looked at the Keychron Q11 yet. It's what I use and I love it so much. I don't find any need to tent my hands when I spread my hands anyway. I only really want tenting when I have to move my hands close together in a REGULAR keyboard. I find it easier to hit the keys when I leave my hands naturally rotated slightly instead of flat, on the flat keyboard. Tenting the keyboard feels unnatural and uncomfortable to me. Thats just my opinion on split keyboards with staggered keys, though, and want to try a few ortho split boards, but I don't wanna give up my F-row and arrow keys.
Kinesis Freestyle2 is your keyboard then: standard layout, still has the tenting and separation features, cheaper too. Be sure to get the VIP kit for the wrist rest and the pronation lifters
It might sound condescending, but ZMK isn't difficult at all. Sure, it's not a GUI app, far from it. But once you set it up by just following the instructions - almost everything happens automatically.
In return, you get customization options rivaled only by QMK, and can sleep soundly knowing that your keyboard uses open-source firmware, so you'll get new features, updates and bugfixes even if Kinesis goes out of business.
im into the topic as well, happy w moonlander mk2. really good vid he knows what hes talking about, always considered the kinesis one but stuff like bluetooth, non switchable keys and non ez programmability is a no go for me. thx again!
ZMK now has support for some keyboards to use a new GUI to build your keymap, which makes it nicer to use on bluetooth keyboards.
11:25 That is because the ZMK project is not from Kinesis, I suppose they use it because is open source and many wriless Bluetooth keyboard projects use it. However I don't understand why they did not use a dongle that communicate with they keyboard (no using Bluetooth) and put QMK in the dongle with VIA support. They have the resources to do that, if open project like the redox can do that Kinesis can also do it.
Been using this for a few month at work as a software developer. I don't really need to remap anything, I solve that by just using Linux.
That being said, the escape key placement is amazing, used to remap caps to escape. Its probably my most used key by far. It has like a week long learning curve though but well worth it.
When it comes to the function keys, you get used to just holding an fn button to access them within minutes, just like you probably already do on your laptop.
I use Vim (btw) so hjkl are my "arrows" already.
Overall for a developer i'd say they hit the mark spot on with most things with this keyboard. I'd most likely not use it for gaming, but for navigating your computer and writing code it's Amazing!
Let me ask, as a fellow vimmer: what if you moved Esc away from your little finger completely and put it on a thumb key. I made that mod to my key map on my Advantage Pro (predecessor to the Advantage 2) prior to the 360 Pro ever shipping. I think it’s pretty awesome. I’ve had CapsLock mapped to Ctrl for more than a decade, though, so didn’t want to have that as my Esc key.
Would like to see you review the model 100 from keyboardio next for an ergo keyboard