The best keyboard I’m not switching to - Kinesis Advantage360
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- Опубликовано: 8 май 2024
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James is an ergonomic man. He has an ergonomic chair, an ergonomic desk, an ergonomic house, and now he's on the search for the perfect ergonomic keyboard. After using the Truly Economic Cleave keyboard for a few months now, he's realized that he wants to switch things up with a split keyboard that allows for the ideal Ulnar Deviation position (does that make sense?) Will the Kinesis Advantage360 be the perfect deskmate, or is James still searching for his true ergonomic love?
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CHAPTERS
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0:00 James and ergo keyboards have a history
0:29 Unboxing
1:21 Design impressions and ergonomics walkthrough
5:17 Sponsor - UGREEN
5:57 Buttons/Ports, connectivity, key switch options
7:45 Keyboard layout
10:33 Rebinding hotkeys and backlighting
12:15 Pricing and overall thoughts
13:46 Outro 
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With multi-layer keyboards I think RGB is so useful as a layer indicator, so you can quickly tell what layer your on, an easy check.
Yep, my thoughts exactly... it's so obvious that it's hard to understand why they didn't include it... especially with per-key-RGB, you could simply have those actually double-bound keys change colour depending on the mode.
Would make it so much more usable, intuitive... ridiculous that a 450+ USD keyboard doesn't have such a basic UX feature.
The keys themselves don't even have translucent characters, so the backlight looks barely noticeable anyway. One would need to replace the keys with non-standard keys maybe even made just for that keyboard, or at LEAST they could have a single RGB LED indicator light somewhere that tells you what layer you're on...I type in a dark room often though, so see-through keys are a must for me, and RGB keys are very helpful. I've been looking at the Moonlander MKI keyboard, but its surfaces are flat, where the concave surfaces of the Kinesis Advantage360 would be ideal as they match the bend of your fingers as they curl and stretch...If it had see-through RGB keys.
I'm even a power-user and would be fine either learning the layout or use their git repo to reprogram it. Stuck looking for that ideal keyboard forever lol
Yeah I have a Moonlander Mk1, and the RGB was really helpful early especially to colour code regions/buttons for what they did, also it helps if anyone else uses my keyboard, they ask which is spacebar, I can just say green on left thumb, and backspace is red on left thumb. Otherwise you're left trying to explain what is what.
As for layers, yeah I have my numpad on layer 2 highlighted to make it as similar in area and layout to old numpad layouts for quick/easy access while working.
I bought one of Wooting’s non-rgb OSU keypads for the game and for undo/copy/paste macros, and I didn’t anticipate how useful it is to have RGB to indicate what layer it is on.
I was thinking the same thing, why didn't they think about this?
I like that he does these type of videos because he actually has a lot of user experience with ergo keyboards. His videos helped me with the decision to buy a ZSA moonlander which I absolutely love. Thanks James
I love my Moonlander, I've been using it for about two years now and I think it's worth every penny. I was apprehensive about making the jump to ergo but I don't think I'll ever go back to non-split.
Compared to the Ergodox, how does it fare in terms of comfort and usability?
moonlander is arguably the best one out there is until they come up with something more insane.
@@yensteelmoonlanders thumb cluster is adjustable....i tend to change the thumbclusters orientation 2 times per day. so imo thumb cluster is game changer compared to ergodox...btw if you can 3d print the tilt set for moonlander..you can basically turn it into a ergodox
I love these types of keyboards, and I'd love to try one myself, but that price is an absolute killer.
Bro think this is a niche market only few of us are going to buy. I don't think the company can sustain
@@Twentizzcounter argument: if they were cheaper, maybe more people would buy them and so total profits could theoretically be higher.
@@Sting_ray this is a valid point ngl but when majority use normal gamer keyboard, rgb and tactical clicks who would buy this. Btw i love the ergo keyboards but dont find useful on a long run.
@@TwentizzTheir Advantage series keyboards have been around since the early ‘00s.
@Sting_ray, Totally agree with you on this. If they were priced around €100-150, I'd definitely be inclined to give one a try. As a programmer, typing is essentially my entire day, so ergo keyboards are intriguing. While there are other ergonomic keyboards available at lower prices, they often come with significant drawbacks.
As a software engineer dealing with RSI issues, all the pain I was experiencing pretty much went away after the first day of using the KA360. Totally worth every penny imo.
RSI as a software engineer (or other PC based job) is super scary. I was hit myself and it's really only thanks to ergonomic keyboards that I can keep going.
Personally I am fine with plastic Microsoft ergo keyboards though. Super low gamer cred but it's worth it -- and not $400.
I hope James reviews the Glove80!
James spotted.
No that’s a keyboard.
Common mistake
Senior egonomics engineer at LTT.
James wellness check ✅
That ESC key is for VIM users for sureeee!!! 😂😂
That's what I was thinking, I hate using ctrl+c to exit to visual mode, but reaching for esc just kills my flow.
I've had caps lock rebound to escape for years for this exact reason
It is! But the arrow cluster is not :) I bet they have a navigation layer with jkl; arrows
binding capslock to escape is very convenient.
Probably why prime is using it lol
I love the way you guys shared the update since you filmed the video! Great way to make corrections!
Though they've actually had that option for custom switches for a long time. Maybe they made it more visible? I ordered mine with box whites on 2022-10-24 and received it on 2023-01-09
I like how everytime there's a ergo keyboard video on shortcircuit, James had to explain what ergo keyboards do all over again. 😂
You’re the best James this is such an informative, detailed perfectly paced video. I appreciate y’all so much and I love your voice.
hey james, i'd recommend the glove80. it's got a janky tenting system like you like and you can order it to build with any low profile switches. also is very carefully sculpted for keywells like the kinesis.
James is so much better at Short Circuits than some others... He actually does some research and testing before filming.
I have the 360 "signature" (which just means I got to choose my switches), and before that, I had the Kinesis Contoured (from ~2000). I do remember it took me a few days to adjust when I first started using them. However, at least for me, when I switch to a laptop or other non-ergo kb, my muscle memory switches too. Arrow keys, modifiers, backspace, etc are all not an issue. I even game with it, believe it or not. I was pretty amazed when they came out with the 360 because their old kbs used to be so .. old, and non-premium feeling. The 360 was a *significant* step up for them. It feels very thoughtfully designed and very premium. The whole having to compile and flash your own firmware to remap keys is more than a bit much though, I agree.
To add an anecdote: back around 2011 when my contoured keyboard was 11 years old, it started having issues. I think some keys started sporadically not working. I emailed them and they sent out, free of charge on an 11-year old keyboard, a replacement logic board which fixed the issue. Their support has always been great.
What James said about moving backspace off his pinky is why I think every 60% keyboard should move the enter and backspace keys in 1 or 2 columns to make them closer to the home row, and just put the keys lost in a different layer.
Either that or you can simply add a split spacebar to a 60% and make the left spacebar for backspace and right spacebar for space. It is remarkably easy to get used to this setup.
On my 40% keyboard that moved the backspace in closer I made the split space into a shift and space which was actually amazing to type on. Shift and Space are both used at a consistent pace so it feels so good to get your thumbs moving in harmony with the rest of your fingers.
Btw, LOVE to see a review of an ergo keyboard. Always super happy to see them. Can't ever have too many opinions of them
Agreed, the Logitech Wave keyboard was interesting because it's pretty cost effective and has sculpted keys. The Atreus 62 has always been my personal fave, and a lot of people like the Iris keyboard as well.
They've covered the most famous ones already, such as the Kinesis advantage, Ergodox EZ, Planck, the moonlander, and the Truly ergonomic Cleave. Do you have any suggestions that they didn't cover?
I'm happy that a 60% ortho board solved all my ergonomic issues. Tried these spilt ones but couldn't get used to them.
Would love you to review the Glove80. It's also not everything I want but since that isn't out there, I think a comparison would be illuminating.
That was a very helpful review!
I think James needs to check out the glove 80. Has Function keys and is very similar
I'm using a glove80. It solves most of the problems you mentioned. An F key row, easy GUI remapping software, and rgb
Glove 80 review/unboxing any time soon?
They've been around a long time. I used them back in 2003 as my daily at work. It took some getting used to, but once you do they're really great. (It sounds like James wants the Kinesis Advantage II)
I can go back much further than that, I used an NEC one in the 1980's lol and if you want to go back further, in the 1930's they made ergonomic typewriters 🤣
They used one in the first Men In Black movie.
@@locutusuk68 I'm talking about specifically the Kinesis keyboards.
The first ergo keyboard he ever tried was the Kinesis Advantage 2. He liked I think, but he didn't like that it was too close together for his shoulders. I also have that keyboard and have the same issue. This keyboard we just watched looks like it will fix all my issues
My first ergonomic keyboard was the Kinesis Freestyle. It was much more comfortable than the razer black widow I had before that. It was fine for gaming and much more comfortable. The advantage was way too pricy at the time but it's always been something I wanted to buy. I settled on the ergodox EZ, and it's said to be not as comfortable, but it's hotswappable.
Layer switching is great on my 32 key keyboard. I use home row modifiers and my backspace and space keys on my thumbs also layer switch to stuff like arrows or numpad. I love it.
I think I'd go for the Dygma Defy instead. Even more looking at the price.
Definitely need to try the Glove80, I absolutely love mine.
You should look into the MoErgo Glove 80
I love my Kinesis Advantage2 enough that I have two. After remapping some keys, they've been great. I may have to treat myself to the 360.
This keyboard peaked my interest but I'm glad for your review. I need all the keys generally where they are, it's hard to change after 30 years of typing and gaming (and the pain that those caused). I am still using the MS ergo keyboard. I am going to check out the cleave and see if that will work for me.
I just got an adavntge 360 after three years of the adavntage 2. If you type a lot it's the best keyboard money can buy imo.
James is the reason I switched to using a 45degree mouse and yesterday I finally got the Moonlander Ive had my eye on for a few yearx now
Kinesis Gaming user for years. Enjoying my F keys
Yeah seems like it might be good for gaming, though probably takes some getting used to. What model are you using ?
@@Gatorade69 freestyle edge. The non RGB one. Really wish they supported qmk, but the text files are time for backing up the configuration.
@JosephHarry that's a great keyboard. I really liked it. Love the text file thing, I wish they added that as an option on the 360 pro
fuck yeah! i’ve been waiting for james’ ergo keyboard reviews to return
The escape key being there is for Vim users, I mapped my caps lock to escape on my Kinesis II for that reason and nobody uses caps anyways.
Caps is genuinely useless in my opinion. I use mostly 40% and smaller keyboards, but even on the few TKL and 65% boards I have, capslock is changed out for tab. So much more convenient.
I put Esc on the thumb next to Delete. I have too many years of CapsLock being mapped to Ctrl (ANSI standard position).
I would say the glove80 has a less premium feel, but is way better than the advantage360.
It fix a lot of the shortcoming said in the video and is cheaper!
Thank you! Please continue with these ergo keyboards. Your review of the Keymouse inspired me to spring for a Keymouse Track which basically saved my career. I was having a lot of ulnar nerve pain and it was the only thing that worked. Sadly, the company is dead so I can’t buy another.
I was anxiously awaiting one of their keyboards as well.
Cleave user here, loved the old model, love the Cleave, using red switches. Would like to have a Kinesis too but in any case, the central thumb keys are great (and that the TE keyboards shift CTRL and SHIFT up by one row).
I actually have this keyboard, as well as both prior versions. I’ve been using them for years and I find they help tremendously with my wrist pain. I don’t use them for gaming (I have a standard keyboard for that), but these are fantastic for work, general typing and (with some learning curve) excel work.
I completely agree with your complaints and wish it had a thumbstick and mouse buttons built in so I wouldn't have to worry about moving my hands off the keyboard.
Review the Dygma Defy!! You'll love it!!
I would recommend trying the Dygma Defy! It's ortholinear and multi connectivity (BT, RF and wired) but not so bulky.
Can you guys review a full spec dygma defy keyboard?
I think sacrifices some aspects from this keyboard in favour of having more productivity/power user features (such as hot swappable keys, more keys, etc). It also has a low latency dongle and RGB for gamers.
i personally think it's the best ergo keyboard so far.
I just got my Dygma Defy. It really checked all the boxes. Highly recommend.
Also on the Defy hypetrain, it arrived during the winter holidays, got used to it in like 2 weeks and been daily driving it ever since.
The tenting system is really nice, the wireless dongle works well (though plugging it around multiple devices is annoying, and it doesn't work well with KVMs), and the underglow is really bright. It's perfect to display the layer you're on by just changing a few zones on the inside, if you prefer a clean aesthetic.
@@Excalibaard The tenting system on it is great, and for the price, you are certainly getting great build quality, not a cheap feeling plastic keyboard.
I've got the MoErgo Glove80 which is a similar split design. I like it a lot but my one complaint is the "tenting" system for it is very finicky
I've got one too! I would recommend using the nuts to secure the legs as suggested in the guide. I didn't at first but now that I have, it stays rock solid at the angle that I want.
im into the topic as well, happy w moonlander mk2. really good vid he knows what hes talking about, always considered the kinesis one but stuff like bluetooth, non switchable keys and non ez programmability is a no go for me. thx again!
It seems super cool! But yeah that's an expensive pricetag.....
And no GUI for pro is a bit dumb but also understandable. Let me explain. It uses ZMK so it's an open-source firmware that (afaik) has no GUI. The Ergodox keyboard use QMX which ALSO don't have a GUI but they developped their own GUI for it. I'm guessing they weren't willing to develop a GUI for the crazy possibilities of ZMK, which I can understand.
The real problem is the "professional" moniker for the ZMK model AND that it's the only one that is wireless. Having a model that's "for big keyboard geeks" with ZMK makes sense, and would have market. But they named it wrong and they tied mass market features to it that they shouldn't have.
Nitpicky, but QMK not QMX. Normally I don't want to be annoying about things like this but it's important to get that right as Googling QMX won't give you QMK results.
There is gui for zmk but it connects to the github account
There are OpenSource GUI configurators available for the 360 Pro. They even allow you to add features like home row mods and tap dance.
hyped for the dygma raise 2. been happily using the raise v1 for 3 years
I rely on keyboards with a trackpoint in the middle, like IBM and Lenovo keyboards. They solved my RSI and allow me to sit back in my chair and move about without ever having to reach for a mouse. Give it 2 days and you'll get used to moving the mouse with it, it's very precise and feels great never needing to move you fingers from the home row.
I’ve been using this keyboard since it shipped to early buyers. I upgraded to it from the Advatage Pro (not the Advantage 2; it’s slightly older brother, the Advantage Pro). I’ve been pretty happy with it for the most part. There are some transient wireless connectivity issues with it. I’ve read others’ accounts that lead me to believe that pairing with multiple devices can exacerbate the wireless issues. The QMK firmware is pretty good if you don’t mind spending the time to tweak the layouts and get things “just right.” I do wish I had the option of different switches at the time (or even better: hot swap; but that’s a pipe dream) but when I bought, it was Browns only.
Been long time but James definitely got more manager looks, then his old ltt writer look
These look pretty cool, but honestly I *adore* my Moonlander. I've got the stands for it, so I don't have their weird tenting system. I'll never go back to another keyboard for productivity.
The price tag was *steep* but, in retrospect, worth it.
More brands should make a numpad with seperate arrow key cluster for all these ergo keyboards (there are some already)
Using an ergo keyboard for gaming has been a total, well, game-changer for me. Though, by "ergo" I mean a cheap Redragon half-keyboard, which, while nothing like an ErgoDox, is a huge improvement for me - I have six buttons for my thumb and I'm able to keep my hands close together and at a comfortable angle. Sure, I've modded it a bit and want to do some more, but it was $30 *very* well spent.
I'm not a fan of weird keyboard layouts, but kinesis does make a really nice split keyboard called the freestyle edge which adheres to the normal layout standards while providing excellent ergonomics.
Something like the Keychron Q10 is more friendly to people who aren't super into weird boards. It gives you the advantage of a split board, but with less of a learning curve because it's a unibody split 75% board. You get everything but a numpad in a relatively compact package if that's something you care for. Personally I'm all-in on weird keyboard layouts and use a QAZ keyboard on the daily, but I get most people aren't into that kind of thing.
It’s very interesting, definitely unique
I genuinely don't understand why ZSA's Moonlander doesn't get more recognition for the excellent product it is
The more I look at the Kinesis products, the more I see disadvantages when compared to the Moonlander :/
If you get the wired version of the advantage 360 you get the cheap and easy version. I specifically did not go wireless pro for this very reason. I have an advantage 2 and the advantage 360. I use the 2 at home and the 360 at work all day every day. I LOVE them both. so worth the money.
Would love to see a video on the Cyboard Imprint!
one thing though, The kinesis advantage has a better "key well", i'm daily driving the 360 but every time i switch to my old one, it just feels better. This one has a few benefits (wireless and extra mod keys) and split layout. but if I could just directly split advantage pro, i'd probably stay with that one.
Best keyboard. Thank you ThePrimeagen !
Super late to this one, but James on the ergo-keyboard beat is my favorite content niche across LMG. This is cool looking, and I'm interested in the idea of the contoured key wells, which I've never tried before, but I am attached to ZSA's GUI as I have a unique layout for the alpha keys to *truly* accommodate my own nerve issues. It's Colemak-DH with a few changes, and I'm constantly playing around with it.
I'm sure there's some other recommendations but Glove 80. I've been looking at that one but haven't made up my mind yet.
After searching for about 3 weeks. I ended up going with the Cyboard Imprint. Crazzyyyy ergo keyboard that's custom built for every customers hands. Cost ~$800 USD with all the upgrades and features I wanted (integrated trackball, aluminum backplate, etc) 😅
Good review, always interested to see ergo stuff. If this keyboard did everything James wanted, I would drop $500 on it, well $525 with the wrist pads.
You should try out the glove80. I just got one and it's like a more modern version of this keyboard
You guys should review The Dygma Defy. It's probably one of the best split/ergonomic/thumb-cluster keyboards out there right now
Kinesis Freestyle2 is your keyboard then: standard layout, still has the tenting and separation features, cheaper too. Be sure to get the VIP kit for the wrist rest and the pronation lifters
My coworker just this week ordered a replacement for her Kinesis 100 from 1992!
As a dev trying to prevent rsi, I am with you on the lack of key issue. I don't mind sacrifices in exchange for easy macro keys and function row.
Would like to see you review the model 100 from keyboardio next for an ergo keyboard
This keyboard looks amazing. I only wish they kept the regular key layout in place.
Glove80 ftw
As a recent Glove 80 purchaser, 100% agree 🙌
Here's an extra tip for ergonomics if you're using a split keyboard: put a trackpad in the middle. It's very reachable by BOTH hands and feels really good. I also use a mouse. =)
Why would they include ABS keycaps instead of PBT for the professional version? I may be mistaken but I'm pretty positive PBT keycaps are better quality and respond better to wear from daily use as opposed to ABS.
Ctrl should be where CapsLock is on normal keyboards. Sun got it right back in the day. On topic, those bowl type keyboard layouts never really did it for me. I'd happily have a space bar reduced to two separate keys with others in the middle.
Great information
ZMK now has support for some keyboards to use a new GUI to build your keymap, which makes it nicer to use on bluetooth keyboards.
You should try and review custom made keyboard - corne, lily58 and many many more. You can even attach touchpad to your keyboard. Whatever your fantasy if you can also design your pcb or solder. And usually cheaper than kinesis.
I use an Ergo Dox Pro. I bought it like 6-7 years ago. It went through a tornado (with me). I managed to lose the main cable that runs from the right keyboard to the computer... and they just sent one to me for free. It still works like the day I bought it.
Once a year or so, I do have to take off the keycaps, and clean out the hair and nonsense that gets stuck under them. But... that's literally the only complaint. It's great, durable, and the company is pretty cool.
arrow keys should be on a thumb cluster. They should make a gaming edition that has at least 104 keys, RGB, red switches and maybe an optical upgrade option?
I would really love for you to check Keyboardio model 100 out and give that a review 😍
If you want a *really nice* ergo keyboard with hot-swappable switches you have really got to check out the Keyboardio Model 100, I cannot recommend it highly enough. Split, with a thumb arc, function keys on the palms, a range of tenting systems, as well as 1/4-20 mounts if it comes to that. It comes in two different kinds of real wood enclosure (maple and walnut), although they're working on a lower-priced plastic version, you have your choice of like six different switches (including linears, which make it my gaming keyboard) or you can hot-swap your own, and of course full programmability and full RGB.
(Oh and it costs $100 less than these Kinesis keyboards. Did I mention that the enclosure is *real wood*??)
James should present more!
I have one, and I love it.
Dygma Raise fan and user here -- but don't get me started on the tenting kit.
I want a keyboard that's customizable (on firmware, not software) like the System76 Launch, but laid out ergonomically like this. That way I have all the keys in an ergonomic layout that *I* can then manage the layers and modes for to fit my needs. I'm totally willing to relearn my typing style (I switched to Dvorak in my late 30s) if there's an advantage to it.
If youre looking for a ergo keyboard, I recommend looking into: Ferris, Glove80, Unicorne from Boardsource, Dactyl, Skeletyl, or an Iris which is a great entry to the space.
I actually like or understand the arrow keys position. When i play racing games on a keyboard i use my left hand for left and right and the right one for up and down or gas and break. It would be great to have the arms more apart, but for the money id just buy a whole racing setup.:)
I’m not sure if this was out there when this video was posted but there is a community driven gui editor for the pro that Kenisi links to on their website
Golly, the custom switch keyboard site has hand-lubed switches!
Update: So um, every bell and whistle added on totalled $700 USD. Custom lubing, custom sound dampening, etc...
I have the advantage 360 (usb not Bluetooth) and it is hands down the best keyboard I’ve ever used. After your brain gets used to the moving of certain keys like arrow keys, it is smooth sailing. If ergonomics is a concern for you, this is the solution.
Which switches do you have and are you happy with that choice?
Since labs is a thing now, Dan and James should do a colab to put together a custom dactyl manuform for Jame's ultimate keyboard.
Escape in place of capslock is due to vi/vim/neovim users. It is a common rebind. In vi one uses esc constantly.
“Uses Esc constantly” is why I personally put it on a thumb key.
I think I still believe that 36 keys is the holy grail of split ergo keyboards, absolutely zero stretching for any keys, just a larger learning curve as you need more layers to make it work.
That said, there’s no decent 36 key options on the market, only open source projects you’re building from scratch, so if you don’t want to build it yourself, this seems like the best one out there IMO, it’s what I’d buy if I had to give up 36 key options
I know y'all have reviewed the Dygma Raise, but I'd love to see what you think about their Defy model!
Been using this for a few month at work as a software developer. I don't really need to remap anything, I solve that by just using Linux.
That being said, the escape key placement is amazing, used to remap caps to escape. Its probably my most used key by far. It has like a week long learning curve though but well worth it.
When it comes to the function keys, you get used to just holding an fn button to access them within minutes, just like you probably already do on your laptop.
I use Vim (btw) so hjkl are my "arrows" already.
Overall for a developer i'd say they hit the mark spot on with most things with this keyboard. I'd most likely not use it for gaming, but for navigating your computer and writing code it's Amazing!
Let me ask, as a fellow vimmer: what if you moved Esc away from your little finger completely and put it on a thumb key. I made that mod to my key map on my Advantage Pro (predecessor to the Advantage 2) prior to the 360 Pro ever shipping. I think it’s pretty awesome. I’ve had CapsLock mapped to Ctrl for more than a decade, though, so didn’t want to have that as my Esc key.
You should review the MoErgo Glove80!
There are some DIY ergo keyboards with the same or in some case more features.
Since you have a few keyboard nerds maybe it's worth exploring this in a Video.
take a look at the zsa voyager next!
A split low profile wireless keyboard from keychron is still my dream
The Glove80 is the keyboard this guy wants, and most people who are truly looking at split-ergo designs should go for. It has all features one would hope for in such a design, RGB, curved keywell, tenting, and a very optimal thumb cluster design + number of keys. It isn't the best in a few areas, but it is more than capable in just about all of them. Usually it's critqued for the tenting solution not being super convenient, but it's very much not an issue if you set it and forget it. Some users also prefer very minimal numbers of keys where the Glove80 clearly offers a full suite.
Kinesis' thumb cluster is actually one of it's downfalls, which is a critical part of how one uses these kinds of keyboards.
Please unbox the Glove80 as a comparison!