Christian Reacts toThe Last Church - pre Horus Heresy Story
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- This was a long yet cvery interresting video. A conversation between to hardheaded indeividauls.
2:00 Intro To the plot
9:45 Video begins
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Link to the original video:
Kill Team Hungary: • The Last Church: Tyber...
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So, funny story. Space Marines are generally recognized by their armor and not by their impressive bulk because, at some point in the history of Warhammer 40k, larger varieties of humans began to appear. Ogryns often come to mind, but they are Abhumans, a recognized sub-species of human that is recognized as still conforming to the human genetic baseline. Similar one-off mutations, gene therapies, augmentations, can give otherwise ordinary humans can obtain the bulk of a Space Marine, and they are common enough that unarmored Space Marines can pass as ordinary, albeit very large, humans. During the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion actually used this trick to infiltrate enemy population centers and even parts of the Imperial Army, and it's noted that Alpharius and Omegon were very short by Primarch standards, so much so that they could swap places with some of the larger Alpha Legionnaires, so it stands to reason that the Legion as a whole may have had a lower base height to help facilitate these infiltration missions.
Slight correction I need to point out is that Alpha Legionnaires were taller than the average marine from most of the other legions.
@@ShadowGhost0117 which makes sense, their Primarchs being still fairly Primarch size (short for a Primarch is still pretty tall for a Space Marine) and the Emps would’ve known this and planned accordingly
Such a small detail and it’s cool they gave a lore explanation as to how anyone would think a marine was a Primarch and vice versa
As a Christian watching the Last Church I can say that I really didn't mind the arguments or where the debate went, the story itself was good and the lore insight was very informative
As an atheist i am bit pissed with the writer that Apocalipsis have so childish arguments.
@@marcinsikocinski4661 As a christian I was somewhat insulted that both Big E and Uriel had such stupid arguments.
I know that the writer didn't do much research but that was an embarrasing portrayal of both positions
@@Artemisarrowzz it's almost like they're both flawed in some way
@@tomasaguirre6607 There's a great difference between "flawed" and "the authour didn't even try to research did pulled it all out of his ass", like we know did happened.
The state of GW books sometimes, man...
@@Artemisarrowzz Kinda curious. What points did you think were missed?
Im an atheist and i do believe secularism to be the way to go. But E is being quite hypocritical in his actions and he also refuses to accept that religious atrocities are, as the priest said, not because religion turns people to evil deeds but because people are instinctively drawn to certain damaging ways of thought and religion is used as a means to justify such behaviour. We know from plenty of historical events that humans do not need religion to cause widespread horror and E should know this better than most.
Personally as a sanathan dharmic person or Hindu(which does not even begin to describe the sanathan dharma) you can believe whatever you want as long as you live a fulfilling life and reach enlightenment. There are many ways to achieve enlightenment. Such as , devotion to religion, helping others in a community selflessly. Isolate from community and meditate or devote yourself to accusitation of knowledge. If people want faith, let them have faith, if they want science let them have science.
I agree with both of you
I think one of the dangers of atheism is the disenchantment of the world around you, nothing is sacred or has value. It's just material. I think these irrationalities - myth, religion, and culture - are necessary because they work with our social nature. I personally think, even as agnostic myself, the religious mind is stronger: the religious reproduce more, they have stronger convictions, from an evolutionary perspective, the religious are the mightier and worthy of continued existence. I'm not saying we ought to be religious, but all humans are driven by passion, and religions and strict cultures often imbed themselves in the passions of people and often even influences their perspective of life even to the most deviant.
I'm saying if you'll need to ignite the passions of people in order to sway them. No one is logical for logics sake, one is logical because they have a passion for it.
Why do You believe secularism is the way to go?
@@Billmaster115religion doesn’t create value, evolution does. humans evolved to be social creatures because that was just the best way to keep life going for humanity. that’s the same reason why culture exists. religion doesn’t really create this, religion is just a placeholder for things that science can’t yet explain.
You need to see TTS Voxcast the last church soon, while this one is fresh in your mind.
He really does!
Indeed. This is the perfect opportunity
As much as I agree with this, there are a lot of references in that voxcast that won't make sense if he hasn't seen the voxcast before that one.
@@trolldrool That just means that there are more voxcasts to see sooner.
13:30 Interestingly, this is a change in the adaptation. In the original short story, the Emperor introduced himself as ‘Revelation’.
To quote the description of the original upload (so glad I managed to catch that) Apocalypsis is Revelation in Latin. And when you consider that High Gothic is basically Latin, it makes sense.
@@Arkticus Yep, somebody explained that to me earlier. Should've included that explanation.
It's a cool change I think.
@@Arkticus Greek, not Latin. Though it is a loanword in Latin, too.
@@andreasbuehler1821 Ah, interesting. The original description said Latin, so I just went with that, but as I speak neither Latin or Greek, that's all I know.
There are several such changes to avoid copyright. Didn't work tho
The Fury of Magnus shows us that this "Apocalypse" is actually NOT the Emperor.
But in fact an Avatar of the Emperor.
thats the thing what we see as the emperor is what he wants us to see even now as a corpse he is much smaller that what he was supposed to be but we also dont fully know as the throne room is also the equivalent of a exploding star so the idea that anything is actually still on the throne besides a bag of bones or even the emperor dying over and over reversing due to his immortality. we really dont know
Both Saturnine and went a little bit off what was accepted as cannon.Dan Abnett lost his phucking mind while writing Saturnine Ref: John Grammaticus and Urdu;never even mentioned before Valdor,Birth of a blah blah blah
actually, apocalypsis does not mean "the end of time". It simply means revelation. It comes from ancient greek
Ah, what a nice twist on the name, because I remember watching the adeptus ridiculous podcast and they said that big E was using the name revelation and I didn't recall him using the name apocalypsis
Glad you did this one. I am a bit tired of GW taking down everything and co-opting it.
Well, the base material is their property, so if they want to take down, its their right.
@@Goreofadream I mean its still up so clearly they didnt take it down. Idk why people are pretending that these animations are a thing of the past and not easily available to anyone who wants to see one or even make one. You just cant make money off it on patreon. Very simple. If you want to make money making warhammer animations, just work for GW. If you dont want to work for GW, then youll have to make unofficial ones. But be careful, if you choose to work for GW, the fans will attack you without mercy. Even if you created series like helsreach or astartes, the fans will hate you for choosing to make official content.
@@Goreofadream Yes, which is why they were offered jobs to work for GW. The two best fan animations ever produced both work for GW. Youre basically hurting fan animators AGAIN just like how you guys made Sodaz and Louis Sparks quit making warhammer animations. You make half of them quit and then complain warhammer + doesnt have enough animations lol.
@@nullakjg767 Warhammer+ doesn't have enough animation because GW hasn't poured nearly enough budget into it. Some episodes are great, others look so bad its easy to tell they attempted to save on budget.
For a company thats been on such an absurd upturn in sales, Games Workshop is stupidly tight fisted with money and it only hurts themselves. And frankly, there's not enough content on it to make it nearly worth a subscription. The idea was idiotic from the start, as if GW will pour enough money into making new shows constantly enough to retain subs. All three of the best WH animated series were made by fans, and that's fucking sad.
The Last Church, Astartes, The Lord Inquisitor and Helsreach were all fan projects. To be blatantly honest, GW should shut the fuck up and accept the free marketing, rather than coming in and fucking up their own community in attempt to penny pinch.
@@uberdjura4003 Bro animations take years to make. Despite that within a year they already put out like 3+ hours of animation, and once the studios are in comfortable in place and confident/familar with their new teams, equipment, and projects (organized during a pandemic) theyll be able to pump out more episodes at higher quality, which is exactly what we are seeing with hammer and bolter. And "the community" is toxic so who cares? They just bully real fans into quitting the series like Sodaz and Louis Sparks. If it was up to "the community", there would be no warhammer animations because nothing is good enough for them. The amount of misinformation and misdirected vitriol they have spread has forever damaged 40k. The only way forward it to ignore them completely. This is why GW cant even credit its animators, because if they do, you people will stalk the creators who actually contribute to the lore/series and force them to quit.
Big E: I swear i'm not a god.
Also Big E: *Glow like a golden Christmas tree*
Who asked what he shouldn't ware to look like god
Your commentary and knowledge of both religion and warhammer lore is so much fun to listen to. I enjoyed hearing your experience of theology and explaining the religious references I didn’t even get. 10/10 definitely gonna subscribe.
Thing is, E set this guy up from the start. Counting on the revelation that He was who Uriah saw in his moment of need. But Uriah had the last laugh.
Even if the object of your worship is not real, the good in your heart and the place whence it comes from is real. The things you do because of that good is also real.
Uriah gives specifics for his transformations into the person he is now. E only gives sweeping examples for his points. There is no growth. Because E does not believes he needs to grow. The true test was this: If Uriah had accepted E’s offer, it would have made all he had ever done and the name in which he had done it, false. A wasted life.
But Uriah held to his path.
It was admittedly already false though. Emp's was right in that all traditional gods, are false. The gods of the Immaterium are not even really "gods" It's the manifestation of massive conglomerations of beliefs forged together under a concept that allows these massive daemons their powers, we equate it to godhood but in truth there are no gods in 40k.
Uriah's faith allowed him to move into a productive and healthy existence, but his god was no less fake for the surety of his faith or how faithfully he spread a message he believed in. It's a tragedy all around.
@@uberdjura4003 I mean, C'Tan, Old Ones, The Aeldari Pantheon, Gork and Mork...There are plenty of Gods in 40k.
The C'tan and Old Ones could be debated as being just so hyper-advanced as to be indistinguishable, but Gork and Mork can and will exist as long as ork kind does, same with the Aeldari Pantheon.
But, perhaps, a clarificatory question: What is the difference between a being so powerful that is indistinguishable from a god, and a god?
@@benjaminhartsock3281 That's a fair response honestly. When I talked about gods in my comment I was mostly referring to the all-powerful kind of gods. Even Gork & Mork rarely do much of anything themselves. Besides the C'Tan are too busy being Necron footstools right now lol.
@@uberdjura4003 Ah so omnipotent gods like the Abrahamic faiths(Islam, Judaism, and Christianity)? I think of the gods in 40k to be more like the old Celtic, Greek, or even Hindu gods, powerful yes but not impossible to dissuade or stop. Although their followers do act more like the Abrahamic faiths, launching crusades, splintering into sects and then splintering even more.
@@benjaminhartsock3281 but you are wrong, while they are called gods they aren’t actually gods, just increasingly powerful entity’s that call themself gods, the eldari phanteon were fabricated by the old ones and consume by slanesh, that’s not godhood. The C’Tan and the old ones are some of the oldest entity’s that exist but they can be kill and slave, they aren’t all powerful shit they don’t even have power anymore. The orks gods are similar to chaos, except weaker. The chaos gods are the closest thing to gods that are in Warhammer, but we know that they aren’t gods, just entity’s that have absorbed the mental energy of the galaxy and the warp. None of them are gods, they don’t rule the galaxy or the universe rules, they can’t create, only destroy or alter reality. How can any of them call themself gods when none of them is able to create anything, and all of them are creation’s of their respective race or another one (or are dead in the case of the old ones)
Most of the time when the Emperor first met some of his primarchs the people first witnessing the Emperor dropped to their knees and often wept.
The reference of Apocalypse is actually more on the nose in the short story as he actually calls himself "revelation" in the official short story.
Also, The Emperor does explain his foresight in Master of Mankind (HH series), he asks a custodian to imagine he sees an island in the distance, or the top of a mountain ahead of him.
The Emperor can see the ultimate goal, he has seen the great future for humanity, but he cant know exactly how he will reach it, he doesnt know which rock will give way under his grip, he doesnt know what could be lurking in the water, he can see his destination and there are many ways in which to try and get there, what he doesnt know is which path is absolutely true.
The Emperor is right and the bright future he strives for is possible, but he cant see everything coming. (and the plot requires him to be both godlike and fallible)
Im not angry at the pauses. I am rather gladdened by it.
We shall not forget this work of art. We shall download it for the later generations.
The Emperor Protects.
RUclips blocked out the last bit of sounds in the scene after the Church burned down btw for those who didn't notice. The original video which Kill Team provided in the description has the Emperor say Come, we have a Galaxy to Conquer as he walks away.
"The difference is, I know I am right." is so bullshit hypocritical, it
made me laugh-out-loud, especially knowing what's to come.
But He IS right! He was behind the Golden Age of Humanity - He orchestrated history and progress of the United human empire/federation before the Dark Age of Technology. His plan was a total success, He had basically build a galactic communism (in good scenes) as the classics tried to described it - all from the shadows, with little intervene.
Then His deeds were obliterated by the madness and cruelty galaxy - first the Man of Iron uprising (the full scale man-vs-machine genocide war) than the psychic awakening (which lead to devastating of countless world due to mass daemon invasion) + lost of all STC and technology progress (humanity during Dark age of Technology was godly in it's power - just look at the fleets of Imperial Fists Phalanxes or Ark Mechanicus like Speranza with AI guided Costigator-class-titan [original STC to all imperial titans] in mass scale and other wonders that nobody could resist) that mankind had lost due to this catastrophes.
Then the Age of Strife emerged - basically 6 thousand year old Mad Max madness on isolated and vulnerable worlds - with no proper logistics and production chains - quadrillions had died due to it, superstition and corruption rot hard, and the extreme dangerous xenos like orks, rangda, hrud dominated mankind. It was literally the darkest hour.
He tried to guide mankind from the shadows, not proclaim Himself the Emperor - so there would be no single authority to lead humanity - it simply DIDN'T worked. He had no other options, because He MUST preserve humanity and stopped the dark gods. The price is existence of the life in the galaxy (and all xenos in it, eldar are understanding it know that's why they've helped resurrected primarch Roboute Guilliman and assists Imperium more and more often, even the necrons did fight alongside mankind vs tyranids, and Szarekh - the Silent King -claimed that he was a bro with Sanguinius) itself.
The Warp and chaos gods are malevolent from time immemorial - from the War in Heaven itself - where for millennia psychic species in the galaxy knew only war/pain/suffering/madness/despair/apathy/souls destruction and death. The galaxy bleed and trembled while gods and their servants were crushing the very stars.
You can't "heal" this wounds - it's better to get rid of such tumor.
If only the Old Ones did share with old Necrontyr the secret to immortality or at least cured their wicked/damaged bodies - mb the galaxy would have a chance to peace and prosper (until tyranyds arrived).
@@Ddarth_sidious yeah no he isn't. He is misguided. Removal of belief does not starve the chaos gods. It would weaken them but that would allow others to replace them such as the god of non belief. On top of that it would be impossible to remove faith from all life in the galaxy since you would stillhave cults here and there in the imperium and other xenos species.
@@fleshymeatsac9371 He tried to make something like craftworld eldars did - something like "paths" to master your emotions/feelings in order to restrict/reduce feeding chaos.
But I guess the Emperor didn't know then that all of feelings/emotions feed chaos, not only the believe/faith.
All if all if He've maid the webway project successfully - mankind and all sentient life with in a galaxy would win a long war vs the Ruinous powers.
Damn you, Magnus.
@@Ddarth_sidious if he'd succeded with the webway he could have won to a degree. The problem came from his ego with him not trusting his sons which ultimately led to Horus' betrayal and Magnus breakinv the wall because he didn't know how important it was.
@@fleshymeatsac9371 I don't think that is correct to apply such things as "ego" or pride/hubris etc to such being as the Emperor.
In "Master of Mankind" when Emperor was speaking with one of his custodes he directly responded that he DID warn his sons about the dangers of the warp, He didn't call evil entities in the warp "the gods" coz, from his perspective they are not a gods, but overpowered daemons/entities and parasites.
And there was an explanation why did He've chosen Horus "He seems reliable" (with the metaphor of cliff climbing the mountain, where the last stone before the top fell out and failed the whole process.
"It seemed to me then that he (Horus) is reliable." Like, we don't know for sure how "tough" the object is until it's under pressure.)
And about the secrecy of the Webway project - there WOULD be navigators/astopaths/etc REVOLUT/coup/uprising, if they somehow would find that the Emperor is making human webway and is going to abduct their position/abolish their posts and importance in the Imperium.
This mutants wouldn't be necessary if the Emperor had fulfilled His plan.
The risks were too much. Concealment was necessary.
GOD DAMIT JACK!!!!
I have major Exams comming up in less than 2 Weeks. I dont have time for this!!!!!
(meanwhile watching it anyway)
The ending is actually cut out. the emperor says to the 2 thunder warriors come, we have a galaxy to conquer
I can't believe you thought Biggie was a thunder warrior the entire time.
In the actual short story, the Emperor says: "You may call me Revelation."
1:07:06 Transhuman fear had set in. Nothing that big should move that fast. The Thunder Warriors were far beyond human and the humans instincts cried out and paralyzed them.
A phenomenon that still appears from time to time in 40k when humans attack or get attacked by Astartes and they're not used to them. A primal fear takes over.
You should totally check out the podcast of if the emperor had a text-to-speech device with the last church as subject of discussion
WELL IF IT'S ISN'T REVELATION IN THE FLESH!
@@durema9720 Or well sorry, that isn't a very apt way of describing it anymore now is it?
Faith does not preclude reason.
Reason does not preclude faith.
Any who say otherwise is trying to sell you something.
Amen! I'm Catholic and on the autism spectrum. Logic is very important to me. I've also got a life-long interest in science. Faith only deepens my wonder at the marvels of this world.
I'm not gonna get in the whole theological argument, but let's be real. Writer didn't really make Impie particularly good at making arguments. Or showing his infinite wisdom and experience. I can name a few people on RUclips who could've structured what Impie was trying to say way better and without making a total hypocritical asses of themselves. Considering it's implied that Big E could convince pretty much anyone that he's right, that doesn't really show. Maybe he's used to rely on his Psychic Presence too much? Eh.
It's not the worst of Big E's decisions. He had handled Lorgar even worse smh.
That was literally the point.
It was to show that the emperor is at the end of the day still flawed, his mentality is "i am right because i am right" that's why his arguments aren't great, because he's never thought he needed to argue, this absolute mentality is what leads to the Horus heresy.
Also, the emperor was not supposed to win the debate, the writer wanted to show that the priest was right (which he is, humanity needs something to believe in, the emperor didn't because he's ironically closer to a demigod than a man.)
@@PeachDragon_ or maybe - just maybe - writer's ineptitude. Big E is basically Perturabo in the Horus Heresy series. A character that is vastly different from book to book with 0 consistency. Really depends on the author, really. I mean
C'mon, Big E in the Lorgar books is Saturday Night Cartoon villain.
@@nemamiah7832 it's done to somewhat give justification to the fall of each primarch, since having them fall because they're manchildren wasn't exactly acceptable.
And yeah maybe it was written ineptitude.
@@PeachDragon_ Lorgar was done quite well overall. It's just they were trying to make him sympathetic (which they failed to do, imo), while making Big E look like a big bad unreasonable bad dude (which they succeeded to do, imo). So we had a bunch of unlikable characters and Ultramarines looking super out of place.
Same here. I just don't think that extremely experienced orator, that was known to be able to sway armies with his charisma, logic and arguments, would be so inept in debating an old man. Unless he was being a dick on purpose? Maybe. That would be one way to explain it. I wouldn't mind that, really. Big E could be a dick sometimes. For no reason.
There are a lot of things a writer should be expected to do when it comes to research. Personally, I don't think getting an education in theological debate is one of them. While I am curious what this story could have been if Graham was more versed in reasonable debates, this is what we got. As it is, I just headcanon that the Emperor's arguments were better than something you'd find on reddit when the God Delusion was getting popular in bookstores.
IT WOULD BE SO FUN to see you react to the TTS podcast Episode 1
where Uriah and Big E have a round 2.
The audio reverb just adds to the vibes
The Emperors truth is the real revelation
It's now what the greater good is. It's so very similar.
@@cegesh1459 Noo, Imperial truth is mass xenocide to ensure the galaxy is owned by the human race, tau are different
It's not a truth
@@sergio9669 your right the Tau are just conquerors who give Xenos the choice to join them or be destroyed or “xenocided”. All for the greater good of course..
@@TheHandofDestiny Frick you Erebus
"Second only to helsreach"
Looks over at Astartes.
I like how the story doesn't actually have a moral about the subject matter, it's just the conversation.
i think it does in the subtext. history is doomed to repeat itself no matter the intent of those writing the stories. alexander the great was venerated as a holy figure at one point in time.
Oh no, it defiantly does. the whole of Warhammer is a "religion bad" story. The subtext of this is that religion is inherently evil, stupid people try to make it good, intelligent people try to eradicate it, both inevitably fail. Its a propaganda piece and unapologetic too. If this was meant to be a legit debate, the two sides failed to convey themselves well.
That Eren Jaegar reference at the beginning. Haha! XD
I kinda drew that connection as well.
When did he say this during the reaction or was it just in the beginning?
1:47:16 at this moment, he says: come, we have a galaxy to conquer.
i the question to Kill Team Hungary who reupload the video of Tyber Portoghese( the video was deleted, by order of Game Workshop )
and he answer me, this is what he says: Yeah, unfortunately RUclips studio lied when it said it will remove only that 2 seconds of copyright claimed music snippet, instead it removed all sound channels...sry about that... :(
so shame on you RUclips and most of all, SHAME ON YOU GAME WORKSHOP!
Looked up a reupload did you? I love 40k but i dislike gw for strong arming these animators.
The reason I think the Emperor wanted to abolish all in the supernatural was he KNOWS chaos exists. The supernatural is real but he wants to keep humanity in the dark to protect them from the urges of chaos.
Well no, the Emperor knew what he could accomplish "if" he succeeded, he knew there were powers out there that could stop him. But the future was never "certain" he knew that if he could turn humankind back to a non religious group and prevent them feeding the psychic "gods" he could weaken them, even if only a little. So that he could bring up more humans with ability and power, not under the control of "gods" but people who could use the power of the "realm of souls/warp"
It was also why he could not reveal (his plan) that there were "gods" since that would just create a chance of them being acknowledged. He had to cut them off from humanity as much as he could.
the problem being that when he "died" the focus of humanity would falter.
26:27 this is why I'm watching this channel, Jack.
"Faith of science" sounds oxymoronic to me.
It's the same as "faith of the hammer" OK, what am I exactly to have faith in? That it always works, it never leads one astray, and that it's perfect for its applications? Science is a method, a tool. It doesn't require faith, but utilization and refinement.
Faith in anything is possible, however it has to be noted that faith and religion are not one and the same, even if they are used like that.
A person can have faith in science without praying to a microscope.
A person can have faith a hammer won't break, but that doesn't mean the chant over it ala admech.
Faith is usually used instead of religion because religion is faith in a god.
Everyone who believes science is the key for humanity's progress, they have faih in science. It may sound weird, but it should be noted that a god is a human made concept, just like science is.
Only difference is that science works and therefore is worthy of faith into it, while religion often forgoes evidence in favor of blund belief in a diety.
I come from the future and "Trust The Science!" has become the modern "It is God's Will!". You must understand that while science is a neutral source of information the people calling themselves scientists are not. People pushing their research as fact even when clearly wrong is a regular acurance in the field.
The funny thing about religion is you can’t really stamp it out. If a man were to reject the faith he was raised in he will find something to believe in, even in the nonexistence of gods. Yes,
even an atheist can be religiously committed in their beliefs. For what is religion if not a collection ideas and concepts that shape our world views. The irony is it never dawns on Big E (from what we’ve seen) was that his Imperial Truth by its very nature is religious. Made worse in the vacuum of religions, the Imperial Cult is guilty of everything he accuses of all religions to a degree of incalculable measure.
My theory is that he is against religion not because he doesn't like it (Since he did the same shit he accused religion of doing). I believe he isn't what we think he is, and that everything we know from him is either wrong or is a well-manipulated lie. The big E can possibly be a warp entity, long before he got stuck to the golden throne. Since everything that we know about him comes from third-party sources, never from himself (that I know of). So we don't know what he thinks, or truly wants, we just piece the pieces of the puzzle with what we have, which leads us to the conclusion that he wants the best for humanity. But what I think he actually wants is to get rid of any other deities, so he himself be the only and last deity alive. His last interaction with Roboute can be an indicator of that, since he didn't use any "charm" or psychic BS on the primarch, and he could actually see what his father truly thought about his "sons". He never cared for them, the primarchs were mere tools for an end, he allowed them to love him as a father, but never actually loved them back. Indicating that he is a high manipulative being, the thunder warriors being another one of the victims of his machinations. So if he is willing to manipulate his own "sons", and his first loyal soldiers, so he can discard them as nothing more than a broken tool, says a lot about his character.
"religiously committed" doesnt mean anything. You just want to make something that isnt religious, religious. You cant be "committed to science" because science is something that changes as new information is revealed. Religion stays the same and requires you to regress to get on its level.
@@nullakjg767 to be honest I didn’t make my comment about religion. What i was talking about is that it has a possibility that since his actions don’t mash up with his speech it can mean something fishy. But now just for the sake of argument, you do realize that science actually changes almost every once in the while? Since with new discoveries and calculations can mean that a theory is incomplete or totally wrong. Take darwins evolution for example, nowadays scientists are starting to believe that the evolution process described by darwin is incomplete. Since some species are taking only some generations to radically change, something that in darwins theory should take millenia or even millions of years. So things like that sometimes change, is natural, since discoveries done by someone before can be totally wrong with a new discovery today. Science isn’t something set in stone.
@@fvardona I think he was trying to debate with me, although I'm not sure if he's arguing for or against my statement.
@@nullakjg767 If you truly believe that religion is a negative... congratulations! That's your religion😊. While I agree that the scientific method is not a religion, it was never meant to be. I have seen people put science on a pedestal and adhere to it with religious fervor.
I would recommend Oculus Imperia's video on the Imperial Truth if you want more insight into why the Emperor wanted to exterminate religion
The artstyle in this reminds me a bit of darkest dungeon. Love the presentation.
I'm a Christian myself, and it would be an understatement to say this story changed my view on faith and religion.
When I was 10 I had only believed myself Christian because it’s how I was raised: there was remodeling being done on my room of the house and I had to sleep in our living room where the trees outside cast nightmarish figures into the dark and I remember crying myself to sleep when I used to be afraid of the dark. Then one night an Angel (I believe) stood at the foot of my bed between a mirror and a window that were facing different directions, all I could make out was a blinding white light and the bluish outline of a “Humanoid like” figure, but before I could focus on more than the outline of the eyes it was gone…simply darkness remained and I had the image burned into the blackness I saw when I shut my eyes. My family came out to see “why I was screaming” but I never screamed to my knowledge, and when I ask them about that night to this day they don’t have any memories of it….you can have faith without proof, but faith with proof is stronger…..
Cool story.
I would just like to point out that it was very much possible that your parents don't remember because enough time had passed to for them to forget.
Humanity has evolved with a rather unfortunate ability to remember stirking or scary events in your life much better than other ones(that is why every pessimist should be taken with a grain of salt).
Unfortunately for you, I don't consider this evidence due to three factors: the aformentioned fact your parents don't remember an angel coming to you, the fact you experienced it at such a young age and third, which is only made worse by the fact you saw it at young age where this is easier to subcontiously pull off;self-hypnosis is thing many people unknowingly do in stressful situations, which usually results in halucination.
I am glad for you that you actually have a reason to believe, instead of just saying "I can feel Him being here" or "the bible says so", but I hope you do understand why an account witnessed by a ten year old won't persuade many people to religion, unless they already are in said religion.
"I'm pausing too much" don't worry about that, the best part of your videos is when you add something else to the video instead of just looking at it. You make a great point and is really nice hear what you have to say
The emperor never created the church of the emperor or the inquisition. The church came after the emperors undeath during his battle with horus. Also the inquisition was formed by malcador to safe guard. The emperor did allow it but it went in a WHOLE other direction then it was intended.
It was bound to happen, because man for whatever reason has a need to see greater significance for himself in the universe, the emperor was not a god in the traditional sense but he had the power of a god as far as his subjects were concerned, his victory over all creation seemed inevitable prior to his interment on the golden throne.
It was a sort of mass reverse gaslighting effect, the emperor tried to tell the truth but he was forced into divinity by the masses regardless of his own desire or plan.
Lorgar was not wrong at Monarchia.
@@seraphx26 Lorgar was wrong. The emperor may be close to a god in 40k because of the massed worship of humanity, but he was not back in 30k. And remember, the whole religion of the emperor is based on the book Lorgar wrote when he was still loyal. Also, I don't see the worship of the emperor as a bad thing in itself, because the only other real alternatives are either the chaos gods or the machine god. Either option is much worse because remember, the root of the machine god is a C'tan shard. Imagine what would happen if the shard of the void dragon was powered up the same way the emperor was and broke free of it's imprisonment. If it was inevitable for humanity to fall back into ignorance and religion, the emperor was the best bad choice.
@@SarthorS Lorgar was not wrong precisely because he saw where it was going even back then, remember he was the one arguing that the Emperor should be worshiped as a god and that was the reason he was humbled by the Emperor, because he spent too much time building up the worship of the god emperor instead of conquering more territory.
@@seraphx26 He ignored what the being he considered to be his god said in order to just go with his own personal beliefs. He was not spreading his gods word as he claimed he was. He was spreading his own. So, pretty much like Christianity these days. He betrayed his father, the being he considered to be his god, his species and his children to end up worshiping a bunch of foul gods who stood for everything he hated.
He hated war and fighting, yet he worships Khorne. He said all he wanted was truth, yet he worships Tzeench. He wanted to build a better world, yet he worships Nurgle. He was all about spiritual purity, yet he worships Slaanesh. He was so clueless and bad judge of character that he raised up his chaos worshiping and abusive adoptive father, and fricking Erebus.
@@SarthorS Lorgar was not worshiping chaos prior to what happened at Monarchia, that came after when he fell into a depression over being humiliated by the emperor and went on the pilgrimage.
As an atheist i think that using religion as an excuse for why good and evil exists is disregarding what humanity at its core is. To value the world, nature and those around you there is no need for faith there are people both with and without faith who end up good or bad, the world around us can be seen as as sacred or deserving of respect without faith the same way a member of the faithful can manipulate or take for granted the world around them if they choose. Those of the faithful frequently put humanity on a pedestal as if we are ment to do what we wish with the world, i think good,evil, respect, sacred beliefs, and benevolence have nothing to do with faith or lack off faith people dont need an excuse to be good or bad
Interestingly the person depicted in the fresco could very well also be the emperor. At some point in the past a c'than called the void dragon landed on the earth and was defeated by him
There's a lot to unpack, after having also watched it and the TTS Voxcast video...
The Emperor is a raging, self assured hypocrite...
"I know I am right." Is not a reason to wage genocide on people he supposedly cares so much for... because they disagree...
He played the part of a God as it suited him, while 'preaching' science and atheism by the sword...
The great irony is that what he sought to crush is the reason he still 'lives'...
Plenty more can be said, but I think that's sufficient
its so much worse actually.
1.) chaos and gods are real, as well as the sea of souls
2.) the emperor is a psyker, a literal magician/sorcerer
3.) he is a perpetual, pretty rich having a literal immortal smart talk the woes and needs of dying men, whilst he himself does not know death or age
4.) the beyond zeallous worship of the emperor, ended up empowering him and keeping humanity stable
Just a nitpick, but the rebellion of the men of iron and "old night" (warp storms and mass psychic awakening) are concurrent, but separate events if I'm remembering correctly.
That is correct. The rebellion of the men of iron, xenos invasions, mass psyker awakening, warp storms all happened more or less at the same time but were separate events. Human civilization could have probably survived them one by one.
I see it similar to the fall of Racoon City in Resident Evil: it didn't start as a huge wave of zombies, it started as small outbreaks all over the city that eventually combined into a single gigantic horde.
Of course all the while that The Emperor is arguing against belief in the supernatural he knew that there were supernatural beings in the form of the chaos gods and their daemons and I think that that is really why he wanted to purge religion. He tried to hide the existence of the chaos gods from humanity but if he allowed people to worship in other ways then those churches could be infiltrated by chaos, all it would take would be one daemon to appear before a priest and tell him to just make a few changes to his sermons. On the other hand if humans were conditioned to reject the supernatural they would take the appearance of a daemon just as a strange (and likely hostile) alien and wouldn't start to worship them.
In the words of Dorn: you should have fortified your position.
I’m not a very religious man, I am Buddhist and raised as such but a lot of my extended family are Jewish, Christian, or Atheists so this has given me a bit of a unique perspective on how faith is such a grey moral area. That said the Last Church is something that I recommend to everyone and is legitimately a great case study of the grey morality of religion.
The concept of the Emperor being worshipped as a god in the context of 40k is such a great piece irony and is arguably one of the most grim dark aspects of the setting. That Humanities main God is nothing more than a very flawed human mistaken for the divine.
Thank you for pointing out and explaning things i miss also didn't expect the large amount of lesson i learn watching your reaction i am a muslim and so many people from my musolah (our equvilent of a church) takes the lesson and message from our qur'an (our equvilent of bible) too literal and cant see or try to read between the lines im soo glad hearing a another religious person can be so logical in their assesmet in their holy text
I suggest you check "The Philosophy of Kreia: A critical examination of Star Wars".
You may find it interesting at least.
There would be less math errors if they had made his birthday year 0. Unfortunately, the BC/AD system does not have a year 0. The year after 1BC is 1AD. Due to this, every measure of time from a BC date to an AD date is 1 year shorter than arithmetic would indicate.
You've missed the teaser to the Horus Rising in the end T_T
You and I both know that if Gee Dubs catches wind of anyone trying to make that happen, they're gonna swoop in and give it the *"Astartes"* touch.
When people are faced with things they don't understand, faces with fear and hopelessness or reflection on their own rage, human beings need faith and hope. They need to believe in something greater than themselves. Faith is not something that science and reason can always provide to minds so small as a human's in moments of stress. When people lash out in rage, they hope they will be forgiven. When someone dangles from a ledge, they pray that someone will help them. When the world around them looks bleak, people need something to cling too.
Faith is so important to human beings, regardless of religion, and that is something that the Emperor failed to understand. But in the end, it all came back to bite the Emperor.
thats the thing about 40k. no one is correct. not even the emperor
Could you please inform me how the Emperor was incorrect here?
@@carlospomares3225 for one, according to the encyclopedia of war less than 10% of all recorded wars have been religious wars, and religion has been the primary cause of 11% of the 100 worst recorded atrocities in history accrding to the Great Big Book of Horrible things.
Even within 40k The Great Crusade, Wars of the Necron and Old Ones, and the completely secular Leviathan War has killed more lifeforms than every religious atrocity to have ever happened combined.
Even other perpetuals don't seem to share his sentiments on religion either, especially old Pious.
As for Chaos, rabid secularism didnt stop Fabius Bile from turning traitor and Papa Smurf grew up in a religiously liberal Cosmopolitan society yet he's still loyal. Chaos seems to be less about belief as much as having decent parents.
He's wrong beyond belief on his "politics have killed thousands but religion has had it's millions".
It's the other way around if anything since religion is often exploited in the name of land, ideology or people more often than the other way around.
@@essexclass8168 Exactly this. Just look at the genocides and wars of the last hundred years. Look at *Stalin.*
The first few minutes are actually a really good explanation of the timeline
Where the emperor is wrong is in what he thinks starves Chaos of power. Having no religion does little to take away the influence of the chaos gods, its the worship of ANOTHER being besides them that starves them.
worship another god, but still kills people and be truthful and couragous
khorn will still be powered
have hope and despair and pursuit knowledge
tseech will still be powered
have peace, familial love, death and sickness
nurgle will still be powered
be happy, fulfill your desires, pursuit passion, sex, rape and drugs
slannesh will still be powered.
to starved them is not to think or have feelings at all.
which is impossible
@@ayami123 Well, servants of the Omnissiah are quite good at not falling for these things.
@@OriaxHeloth well they're more robots than humans anyway besides they have faith already omnissiah
Even they powered the warp in some way.
@@ayami123 Yup, but in significantly less way than humans.
@@OriaxHeloth Well that is the solution of the emperor against Chaos essentially, it was to turn humanity into something it isn't, into robots.
If the emperor of man was real I'd join his cause so fast.
Is it just me or is this vid very quiet? I've been listening it at full volume and barely heard anything..
Dat battle of Gaduare tho. 5000 thunder warriors against 50000 normal schmucks, is a kinda a bit overkill. 500 woudve been enough. Guess Emps really wanted dat battle done quick
My personal views on the Last Church: As an Atheist I do not believe in a god thus I do not have faith in one. But having faith doesn’t always have to tie into religion like it does with Uriah you can have faith in others, yourself, in material objects, etc. You could say that the the early Imperium had faith in the Emperor in a secular sense as a great leader and unifier that will lead humanity to glory just not a religious one only with it becoming so later. I think the takeaway from this is that extreme religion and extreme anti religious sentiment are the problems that both Uriah and Emps face. Maybe the Imperium would have a better bulwark against Chaos if the Early Imperium were a secular society Lorgar might have not been corrupted and free to worship his father perhaps averting the Heresy or lessening it. This is provided both religious and secular forces don’t infringe on humanity of course. Obviously Chaos cults would run counter to this and would quite rightly be stamped out. Everybody should be in agreement on that. Either way whether the Emperor likes it or not he has become a symbol of religious faith and its helped to hold the Imperium together.
woot, the "high ground" thing was insane!
Your comment about dark matter gave me a funny question.
What if dark matter is proof of divine presence? It is something impossible for humans To under stand, and without dark matter the universe might even collapse. Just a funny idea.
dark matter: Can't be seen with current(!) methods at 1000s of light-years distance. Shows, as a whole, observable characteristics. Humans have multiple viable hypotheses about its nature based on those observable characteristics.
some religious: iT imPoSSiblE fOr huMaNs To uNderStaNd TheREfoR GAWD!!!
@@DeHerg no need To go on the offense. I just said a small theory.
@@brok56 And I summarized said "theory" and its flaws (as well as the common underlying fallacies in similar "theories") via sarcasm.
@@DeHerg Personally as a sanathan dharmic person or Hindu(which does not even begin to describe the sanathan dharma) you can believe whatever you want as long as you live a fulfilling life and reach enlightenment. There are many ways to achieve enlightenment. Such, devotion to religion, helping others in a community selflessly. Isolate from community and meditate or devote yourself to accusitation of knowledge. If people want faith, let them have faith, if they want science let them have science.
@@debarpandutta6722 If someone promotes ignorance by falsely claiming that a phenomenon that is merely difficult to observe is fundamentally impossible to understand, you expect me to leave that uncontested? If the religious want to ram their God into every yet still existing gap in humanities knowledge, fine. If they falsely claim those cannot be closed(thereby discouraging their closure), I object.
To be fair the emperor probably couldn't Express too much of his plans because a lot of it had to involved people not knowing about chaos he knew how chaos worked and would rather had Humanity stay completely ignorant of its existence because he knew it gains Power from Just that alone but that's also one of the big flaws of the emperor he could never understand Humanity despite being called the master of humanity he saw the more questionable parts of human nature as flaws that needed to be eradicated instead of understood arguably those two things combined played a tremendous part in the destruction of his ideal Imperium ironically enough
This is a wonderful video, would it be ok to fillm something similar at some point? you're idea tho, Id give that credit
Is that fresco Big E slaying the Void Dragon?
Yes
Loved the "We have the high ground!" reaction... :P
When he looks up and sees the painting of the emperor kicking the void dragon's ass XD
Apocalypses is the Emporer. This is supposed to be the moment where the Emporer met the last priest on Earth after his massacre of the Thunder Warriors.
I think your vids are echoing cause you listen with speakers instead of headphones. Causing a reverb
Fun fact about the emperor he said he will not be seen as a god. Butt he never sait that he will not become a god
This video was a wonderful lesson on Theology. Very nice. 😊
Funnily enough, given the subtle power of the placebo effect, faith may very well have a physical, tangible effect on, if nothing else, the functioning of the human body.
The dead sea scrolls are extremely interesting, especially the Gospel of Judas
Isn't the gospel of judas the one that basically breaks what little sence there is in bible by implying quite a few interesting things about god?
@@doublem1354 It is, it also paints everything, including jesus and the other apostles, in a much different light
Every time someone mentions that bit where evil will pretend to be christian I remember trump standing in front of a church with an upside down bible in his hand😂
this is actually a really cool commentary on religious beliefs
When he said the “Faith of Science and Reason” I was like……but Religious history, archeological history and scientific facts all line up…… like a jigsaw puzzle with about 500 missing pieces out of 10,000,000 pieces but still…
I mean is there evidence of heaven or even eden. Why have we not found adam and eve's common genes?
@@debarpandutta6722 I mean, Heaven is literally supposed to be a higher plane of existence/dimension, sort of like the Warp in 40K and Eden would have be completely obliterated by the great flood of Noah's day so asking for direct evidence for either is a little nonsensical. There is however Y chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve, most scientists don't actually believe that's who they really are, but that in itself treads on 'begging the question' territory making it pretty suspicious.
When I read this shit, I realise how much our beloved Emperor is right
*Looks at the number of wars started by religion.* 6%...
13:15 in the original version his name is revaluations
The book of enok I think it was, was great! Shame it’s no longer part of the bible. It had giants and unbelievers then god wiped out earth because people wouldn’t worship him.
The Emperor made laws that it was illegal to worship him as a god.
Opportunistic and power seeking men made a religion out of his ideals as soon as he was killed. er...
Incapacitated.
To be fair, it wasn't just opportunistic power-mad lunatics that did that. Long before them, normal people who wanted something to believe in did so in secret.
After the Heresy, it just caught wind and the rest is history.
If you see Jesus’s face in a slice of toast, does that make it holy? I’ve personally never experienced anything religious in my life. That never stopped me from trying to be a good person.
Faith is irrespective of religion. Your life defies the entropic forces of the universe. Choosing to continue striving forward in spite of these forces is an act of faith.
@Idk bro We hold supernatural things in importance all the time, show me an atom of justice, of honor, of mercy? None of these things exist in material reality, all of it is derived from a conception of what is good, and the only way we can justify the practice of such ideas beyond measuring the extent of consequences is by believing that there is an ultimate moral axiom that is separate from human conception that holds these concepts as inherently good and thus worthy of following regardless of consequence
without that moral axiom that is separate from human conception, then honor, justice, mercy, etc are basically just ideas that are "nice to have" when society permits it, as there is no ultimate force that backs the importance of these concepts. Without this supernatural ultimate moral axiom, then whatever breach of honor, justice, and mercy is ultimately justifiable via measuring the consequences of an act.
Please. For the love of baby Jesus Christian and everything that is Holy. Do Not. Watch the Ultramarine movie. Think of the worse animated movie you ever saw, and make it 2 times worse. Thats the Ultramarines 40 000 for you.
Ha Mr. The Chill Zone could you please a reaction on a RUclips by the name AfanWithTooMuchTime Warhammer 40k vs star wars series
That series is amazing ;)
Im an atheists but ill never use bce and bc. Not because i love god but because the creation of that calender probably took thousands of man hours on the churches dime that has benefited humanity for how many of hundreds of years now? And they did so well that its only had to be adjusted twice, they knew this btw. Its how it was designed, now its perfect for the next 10k years. Priests did that. Its ad and bc.
I pray to Joe Pesci !
my man
My favorite subject on how science can support religion is how there are way, *WAAAY* too many specific criteria that allow Earth to support life
Like 200? I’ve heard that as well. Quite mind boggling the sheer insane number of criteria needed to be met.
@@chadsmith8966 I wouls have to disagree. Given the sheer number of planets just that we know exist in the universe it would be stranger if there were no life bearing worlds what so ever. Especially since (as far as I'm aware) the onlything that life really needs to develop is water since most other conditions can be adapted to.
@@fleshymeatsac9371 to create life… perhaps water is you need. I am no expert. But to sustain life… I would say that is a more daunting challenge. Out of a trillion star systems in our galaxy alone, there has to be another life sustaining planet.
@@chadsmith8966 not really. Once water is present life will follow. It is theonly thing that life 100% cannot survive without. You dont have food? Life will developto gain sustenance from other sources such as plants thrpugh photosynthesis.
No oxygen? Ok evolution will make it so that life can thrive off of CO2 or some life will create oxygen again such as plants.
The planet is hot. Cold blodded life or life that thrives in the heat.
Facts my friend
Theorie about the emperor he has never a plan two beginnt in the first place but about is enormes powers in psychic he have Probely many visions Things maybe comes out explains to me why his the shison was let just say question At best don't forgetbHandling with his kids and year i don't think i must remember we is out in for him Expendables why he was the terrible Beihilfe Action maybe and powerful ability to handele tings just Affen theory maybe exchanges so much i think ^^
Very well done sir. You should check the amber king channel, understanding chaos corruption.
I cry like 4 time watching this
Emps is so right
I think there needs to be alot more understanding of conservative values, there seems to be a misconception here that they are overly stubborn and not progressive enough. Btw speaking in tongues is really wierd.
You not seen something in the end of film ! The beginning of Horus rising book !
Man you missed the post credits part
Betrayal I'd a good thunder warrior story....
When you said to avoid the conflict between religion and science. It made so much sense with religion I Was Lost With Science I Was Lost. But with both Life had began making sense Life became a little more Better.
I thought that was Herschel Walker's kid
Ah, a seeker after truth? You must study the life of Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers sometime. I think you’ll find it… enlightening.
Does anyone have the soundtrack/ost?