And what drew it out of him the fastest was when someone attempted to dis someone he loved. And he did love Jed - they were best friends for so long even they didn't know how long it was.
The irony here is that Hoynes had reason to be annoyed with Bartlet. He knew about the MS before Leo did, and he had been promised that Jed would only run for one term as the price for helping Bartlet win parts of the South. Leo did not know of the MS or of the one-term pledge until later. Hoynes probably expected to be a more visible Vice President with more power.
He still handled it poorly and did disservice to both his office and the President's. There's a saying, "You don't shit where you sleep." There was no issue with Hoynes's exploring a campaign to succeed Bartlett at the end of the first term. But he did it as if Bartlett didn't even exist. That's the shitty move.
@@samsonguy10k idk I’ve been watching the first season and Bartlet is a major dick to the VP whenever he gets a chance. It’s humanizing to a degree but still as VP, Hoynes should’ve made more of a war effort against Bartlet
@@johnwax9606 Bartlett treated Hoynes like this because of the VP nomination. Bartlett had to ask him twice and in Bartlett words beg him for the position. Bartlett felt once he won the nomination everyone in the party fell in line but him because Hoynes was the front runner for 3/4 of the primary. Bartlett didn't want Hoynes as VP but the individual who would become Secretary of State. He welcomed the Hoynes idea as he was a powerful US Senator from Texas
You make some good points but the president may have known that if he made the vice-president more visible and gave him more power that might have raised questions.So maybe Hoynes should have talked to the president and not Leo about getting more power and been more visible.Also did Hoynes ever know that the president told Leo about his MS?
@@jesusthroughmary I don’t agree. He called him John to show that he was going to win if it really came to wetting on a brick wall. Yes, he is Mr. Vice President in public, but the ‘John’ was still to prove his point
The Bartlet and Hoynes relationship was meant to emulate the tense alliance between John F Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson. LBJ felt underutilized. The situation also reminds me of the dynamic between the patrician and liberal Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the more conservative Texan, John Nance Garner, who notoriously called the vice presidency "a bucket of warm piss".
They screwed Hoynes royally. He was an interesting character, and could have been more. But they wrote him off with a zipper problem just to simplify the plot and bring in B-1 Bob.
@@mikaku On some things, maybe. I suspect that Leo is smarter when it comes to the ins and outs of being a political technician, while Bartlett is smarter in general and perhaps as an ideas man. Frankly, that's probably a good combination for a prez and his chief of staff.
@@mikaku Leo was wiser than Bartlet and was less ideological. Especially in emotionally difficult times, Leo was able to keep the president grounded and focused.
That was a good scene when Bartlett was going to be doing state of the union and he was talking literally to the designated survivor senator or whoever wouldn’t be there.
Bartlet and Hoynes needed each other, although both hated to admit it. Hoynes brought support from the moderate-conservative Democrats that Bartlet lacked and Bartlet gave Hoynes credibility among the liberals, which would have been critical for Hoynes if he wanted to run for President after Bartlet. Plus Hoynes was under the impression that Bartlet would only serve one term, so it was in his interest for him to bite his lip and be a loyal VP.
In a technical point the Chief of Staff for the White House can talk to the Vice President as such. The Vice President can't fire him, and the Chief of Staff is one of the few people who have access to the President at any given time. Is he more powerful than the VP? In a sense. Who's more likely to become President? The VP. So they're both more powerful in a sense in different ways.
+Tobi Ojo Yes, but Leo is much heavier in the Democratic Party than Hoynes. And he's a far more cunning politician. He's basically telling Hoynes that, if they go at each other, the one that'll end up humiliated will be Hoynes. Note that Hoynes actually seemed to agree with the fact that Leo would win this.
It depends on who the President gives more power, if the President is closer to the VP I doubt the chief of staff would dare threaten a VP. It is all just nameless titles in the end, but the power flows from the president. If the President's BFF is secretary of agriculture then he will be the next more powerful man. We know how powerful Dick Chenney was during the Bush years. In the show Leo is only as important as Bartlett makes him, during the Israel Palestine conflict, President ignores Leo's advice for Kate Harper so your position can change just as the President stops listening to you. But if you consider Leo's influence on the democratic party as separate then that is a different issue.
The VP has no constitutional duties except to preside over the senate. He has no power. He also doesn't have to take orders from the president or the chief of staff. However, they could drop him from the ticket next time and they could ruin him, politically. Since almost all VP's want to be president, they usually are team players, at least in appearance.
The dangerous part for the chief of staff is if something happens to the president. The chief of staff could find himself suddenly outflanked not just in the white house but with the party at large.
In this sense as well Leo had the President's full backing, meaning he knew he could act however he wanted within reason. However, without the President's backing the Chief of Staff is vulnerable since they can easily be fired, whereas the Vice President is virtually immovable. That immovability also gives the VP the power to effectively act however he wants, and it's exactly that power dynamic this scene deals with brilliantly.
It's important to remember two things about this scene. One, the president had just embarrassed Hoynes in front of the Cabinet earlier in the episode. Two, Hoynes knows the president has MS and isn't going to run for a second term...and Leo *doesn't* know it.
Hoynes thought that it was a co-presidency and he could set the agenda at a cabinet meeting. No sir. No sir you can't. The vice president has no authority unless the president allows it, dies, resigns or is removed from office.
@@PaperbackWizard Maybe that wasn't the first time Hoynes did something like that at a cabinet meeting and don't forget in an earlier episode Hoynes sort of took credit for the passing of a gun bill i think.So maybe the president needed to put the vice-president in his place
@@aph1976 First of all, Hoynes *did* get the bill passed. It wouldn't have happened without him, just like Bartlett wouldn't have become president without him. Second, you don't "put the vice president in his place" for getting a meeting started that *you* were late to.
I agree with a lot of commentators that this scene is not likely in real life. It is after all just a TV show. However, wiki says: "In general, a chief of staff provides a buffer between a chief executive and that executive's direct-reporting team. The chief of staff generally works behind the scenes to solve problems, mediate disputes, and deal with issues before they are brought to the chief executive." So, I think that this meeting is possible, and a courtesy to the VP from Leo before it reaches the President. And Leo is clear that a directive from CJ is a directive from this office, the office of the President. As the President's chief of staff, Leo speaks under the authority of the President in all areas except where the President's word is required by law such as ordering an attack, or firing high ranking officials. But before all that happens Leo could put anyone on notice such as a member of the Cabinet, or a member of the Joint Chiefs, or VP that they are coloring out of the lines, and the wishes of the President. Because when he does so, he is doing it on the authority of the President, so that the President doesn't have to personally argue with those in his administration one on one, every time there's an issue. The chief of staff shields the President from all the mental-crap, so he can govern. Unlike the VP the chief of staff is not a politician, he works for the President. Hoynes is a politician, and the next presumptive nominee, so his motives have to be scrutinized. That's why the President hires a chief of staff, to have a person he trusts helping him to control his administration, what it accomplishes, and how it will be remembered.
This scene is ridiculous. Vice Presidents take the role knowing they are glorified understudies/wing men. Writing the VP as a Drama Queen foil to the President is just a lazy trope, especially when there are many other legitimate issues they could pull from. Sorry, but I can't suspend my belief this far
I remember this scene first run. What makes Leo is he’s a VERY SMART pit bull! He’s got the teeth but wise enough to growl at you a little to see if you get the message.✌🏾😉
I liked Tim Matheson in this role. Except when they made it out that he couldn't keep in his pants. Would have been cool to see him in more scenes with Leo and Bartlett.
That was more to write him off the show so when the President's daughter was taken he would be forced to concede the presidency short term to a republican Speaker of the House played by John Goodman.
It wasn't calling him John that was so dismissive, it was picking up the papers and starting to read...basically saying "whatever your title, I am in charge and I am done with you, you are dismissed"
I'd like to think the line where Hoynes mentions being President Bartlett's "whipping boy" has been adapted from a story Nixon told about Eisenhower's CoS, Gen. "Beetle" Smith, who once lamented to him that he was just "Ike's prat boy" . It's a great interview.
If the VP was something of a rogue, I can completely see the White House Chief of Staff talking to the VP this way...I can only imagine was McCain's would have had to say to Palin...
Yeah a lot of Hoynes was based off Lyndon Johnson. Senator from Texas, Senate Majority Leader, ran for president but lost to a New England Democrat then ended up getting the VP slot and later got credit for helping the ticket in the south. Plus much like how Kennedy and Johnson weren't too fond of each other Bartlett and Hoynes were that same way. So I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson had that kind of conversation with Kennedy's Chief of Staff.
If JFK were President today, he probably would have a Chief of Staff. But JFK might have placed RFK as his Chief of Staff (and had a waiver on the US Code 5110 ) instead of Attorney General. The modern day Chief of Staff seems more powerful than most of the Cabinet.
President Kennedy didn't have an official Chief of Staff -- the position hadn't actually been created yet. But Kenny O'Donnell functioned for President Kennedy much like a present-day Chief of State would do.
More precisely, the CoS and VP both have precisely as much power as the White House chooses to delegate to them (plus, in the VPs case, the ability to break tie votes in the Senate). The last couple VPs have been fairly powerful (especially Cheney) but that's not always the case, and obviously wasn't in the Bartlett administration.
Yeah Pence and Harris aren’t exactly “powerful” VPs. Although Pence did sort of save the day on January 6, but beyond that pretty much an average VP. I don’t even know what Harris is doing.
You know I generally like this show but as a moderate, pragmatic, southern Democrat I always took issue with how this show portrayed Hoynes...and Southern Democrats in general. Bartlet, the idealistic New England Liberal couldn't help but hold out his contempt for Hoynes, the Texas moderate with Senate experience. They even had an episode where a Southerner calls Sam out for making fun of the South and I'm like "yeah they do."
I won't say you're wrong, but there is a moment when all this comes to a head when Hoynes wants to know why the hell Bartlett even wants him as VP and Bartlett's response is "I might die." So he has all kinds of disagreements with Hoynes but he feels he would be the best successor if something happened
I know Hoynes was meant to be a sleaze, sometimes antagonist, but I always felt bad for him. It's clear he's smart, he's good at what he does, and he had the exact qualities in the right amounts to be a decent President someday. And he was treated like shit from day 1 because he made Bartlett beg him to join the ticket. He had a genuine shot at the presidency, and he blew it all because he couldn't keep it in his pants, and didn't know when to get off the stage.
This is what I love. Its also why Band of Brothers works so well. We support these characters, we're on their side, but every now and then they dip a toe in the dickhead pool.
This is a great scene, but I just like that Leo calls CJ a good girl. It could so easily be demeaning, but Leo makes it sound like he means it: shes damn good at her job.
From a constitutional standpoint, the VP has almost ZERO duties to fill. His future political opportunity rests with his performing duties as the President requires. Those who aren't team players rarely get a chance to run themselves and would likely be removed from the second term ticket.
Yes but "The West Wing" portrayed a very dated viewpoint of the Vice Presidency, from the '60s. Vice Presidents since Agnew and Quayle have been increasingly heavy hitters and independent power centers in their own right, with close relationships to the President and key advisory roles. The last sitting Vice President to be removed from the ticket was Henry Wallace in 1944 and that was because he had gone very far leftward at a time when a more centrist (from the 1940s standpoint, not ours) view was needed during and after the war.
So many back and forth's here. The VP is right, Leo doesn't have authority to order the Vice President to do a damn thing. Leo is right, the Vice President does NOT refer to the President as "your pal". The VP is right, that he shouldn't be treated like a punk, by the President or anyone in his administration. Leo is right, the VP is to publicly offer full throated support to the President. They can disagree in private all they want, but when the President makes a decision, that's it. And the Vice President is to back him up on it, not sneak behind his back.
At that point in the primaries, Hoynes couldn't win. Had he rejected Bartlet, Bartlet would've picked someone else. If it didn't balance the ticket right, Bartlet could've lost. That'd leave Hoynes nothing instead of the chance to be Vice President. PLUS, Bartlet had to tell Hoynes about the MS, so Hoynes is probably thinking to himself "he could die, and I'd get the Oval Office". And the Vice Presidency is a stepping-stone to the White House anyway.
Al Gore tried something similar. George Bush had a very tough campaign against Reagan until the Gipper wont eh nomination for president. He changed tactics while serving as vice president and tried not to make his ambitions too obvious publicly.
We all have our talents. I'm a better Auctioneer than Sorkin is. And I didn't say I would have "Written" the line I said that is what I would have said if I were the Vice President. :>)
Technically "Letter of the Law" right doesn't always match reality. And as this show progressed, Leo proved who had the real power. That was the message - play nice or get your balls busted and your political career ended.
Another thing that I would love to do which concerns to building a system of justice is to support our President so that he has the peace of mind to make the best decisions for the country which necessarily will impact beyond this country. The good and strong mindset favors a positive and constructive relationship with leaders of the other nations in this world. Sustainable decisions favor the whole planet - and everybody wins. Even though I am an American citizen, multinational means a lot to me. I don't ever forget that; it is in me. Leaders of other nations want to be inspired by strong leadership so that they can mirror it and adapt to their particular situation.
It's a pretty crappy position. But you get a nice house, a plane, a staff and they send you around the world to run errands. If you're Mike Pence you do all of the heavy lifting of governing while sucking up to an incompetent and corrupt boob until his supporters try to hang you.
Until Dick Cheney the vice president usually had their office in the Capitol Building and came to the White House on invitation. They didn't tend to maintain their office and staff inside the White House.
This dynamic is interesting in politics. Do you pick a VP who helps you win the election (as was the case in WW), or do you pick a VP who helps you govern the country as your partner?
Yeah it does, seeing that being the president or vice president of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is just a managers job : ( Presidents have no power at all, neither does congress and sadly neither do the people of the United States
Leo didn't say " goodnight Mr. vice president" Hoynes should have called him on that . Seeing that Leo said "my boy " earlier in the conversation .... That was a writing mistake . Or maybe it wasn't
2024. Will you defend America this time, Donald John TRUMP? Against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic? Oh yes. And allow Americans (and forgive the word) OTHER Americans to help you decide who those enemies are? Senator Addison Mitchell MCCONNELL answered that already. TRUMP will let you know when he is Put In office again.
Hoynes and Bartlett were political allies, but the reality is there was no love lost between the two. The VP's job is to support the President's policies and position, and he undermined his boss. Bartlett can't fire the VP (elected official!) but he can deal with him in a way that leaves no uncertainty about who's in charge.
According to all the interviews I've seen, the 2nd most powerful person is not the VP but the CoS who derives his authority from the President. In practice I think the outcome of this engagement depends on the administration. Based on my observation, this would not happen in a Trump administration as he did not share his authority with anyone and fired anyone who attempted to show some. Under Obama, it appeared at least publicly, that the VP was on board and may not have needed reigning in. Under Bush, well could you imagine anyone summoning Cheney? I would argue he was the president for all practical purposes.
I could see Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon doing this. Indeed, the Kennedy-Johnson dynamic is what the Bartlet-Hoynes dynamic is based on. Reagan, the Bushes, Clinton and Obama all seemed (at least publicly) to have good relations with their VPs. I'm interested to know what will happen with Biden-Harris. I wonder if there's a one-term deal, given his age.
@@bobbyf1741 Biden was a more veteran political operative and had better relationships in both houses of congress than Obama. But Biden had lost the nomination a couple of times and thought that he was unlikely to ever get the nomination. Plus I do think he believes in serving his country. My understand was that Biden was given room to speak freely with Obama and argue his points. But when the time came it wasn't a co-presidency. Biden knew that Obama was the man. Trump thinks public office should run like his corrupt businesses with his children assuming roles and triple billing for work that they didn't do.
except that is was Leo McGarry, ex-Secretary of Labor and all around political badass who convinced Bartlet to name Hoynes as his running mate after pretty much ensuring that Bartlet would beat Hoynes for the Democratic nomination and eventual election. despite his bluster, Hoynes knew that Leo could destroy him if he had half a mind to do so
@@leegrabelsky2696 Leo McGarry is not just the White House Chief of Staff, he is a very close and old personal friend of the President of the United friggin States AND his most loyal supporter AND a man with more political experience than Hoynes could ever dream of. And when Hoynes undermines the President's position, you'd better damned well believe Leo's got the authority to yank hard on the VP's leash, because I guarantee Bartlett would have Leo's back if Hoynes decided to make an issue of it. Leo was appointed by Bartlett, so Hoynes can't fire him. Since both men answer directly to the most powerful man in US government, who do you think the president is going to look more favorably on, especially given Hoynes' little stunt in New York? And Hoynes can't complain that Leo isn't doing his job, because Leo is backing the President's policies and reminding the loose-cannon VP of exactly who BOTH MEN work for.
xaenon ...1st off It's a TV Show?..Hello? I didn't say Hoynes ..played by Tim Matheson..Could fire The Chief of Staff....And I don't know what The "Friggin" President of The United States description as ya say had to do with...Whatever it had to do with.. ... Neverthless The Hoynes character still being a Friggin VP in non TV show general milieu terms... Doesn't get subjected to lambasting reprimands by Chief of Staffs
@@leegrabelsky2696 First of all, if it's 'just a TV show', why did you run your mouth in the first place? Thy actions and thy remarks are inconsistent. Hmmmmmm.... The fact that Hoynes can't fire McGarry, coupled by the fact that Leo is acting in full support of the man at the top GIVES him the authority to remind Hoynes just how, where, when, and to what degree he screwed up. Hoynes doesn't have a leg to stand on, and he sure as hell wasn't going to get support from the President he had just undermined. As for the rest of it.... Yeah, keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy.
@@MrJamberee Certainly, and I agree with you. Although, the problem with the OP's comment really is the assumption that all administrations function exactly the same way. They don't. I'm tempted to point out the chaos in this administration from the lack of a cohesive chain of a command and an even more incompetent guy at the top of it, but I can let that alone. The Chief of Staff in the show is made out to be like a "co-president" of sorts, but thats not necessarily true of all administrations. And its a TV show. But as a point of personal power, the Vice President has absolutely no authority over the President's Chief of Staff, hes free to say whatever he wants to the VP, and the VP can't even direct him to a men's room in retaliation.
In a technical point the Chief of Staff for the White House can talk to the Vice President as such. The Vice President can't fire him, and the Chief of Staff is one of the few people who have access to the President at any given time. Is he more powerful than the VP? In a sense. Who's more likely to become President? The VP. So they're both more powerful in a sense in different ways
"Cuz I'll win, and you'll end up playing celebrity golf the rest of your life" man Leo was the shit
Yes, he was. John Spencer was amazing
And what drew it out of him the fastest was when someone attempted to dis someone he loved. And he did love Jed - they were best friends for so long even they didn't know how long it was.
Straight up Chicago gangsterism.
My television role models - Andy Sipowicz, Leo Thomas McGarry and Norm Peterson
The irony here is that Hoynes had reason to be annoyed with Bartlet. He knew about the MS before Leo did, and he had been promised that Jed would only run for one term as the price for helping Bartlet win parts of the South. Leo did not know of the MS or of the one-term pledge until later. Hoynes probably expected to be a more visible Vice President with more power.
He still handled it poorly and did disservice to both his office and the President's.
There's a saying, "You don't shit where you sleep."
There was no issue with Hoynes's exploring a campaign to succeed Bartlett at the end of the first term. But he did it as if Bartlett didn't even exist. That's the shitty move.
Godric, when you’re right, you’re right.
@@samsonguy10k idk I’ve been watching the first season and Bartlet is a major dick to the VP whenever he gets a chance. It’s humanizing to a degree but still as VP, Hoynes should’ve made more of a war effort against Bartlet
@@johnwax9606 Bartlett treated Hoynes like this because of the VP nomination. Bartlett had to ask him twice and in Bartlett words beg him for the position. Bartlett felt once he won the nomination everyone in the party fell in line but him because Hoynes was the front runner for 3/4 of the primary. Bartlett didn't want Hoynes as VP but the individual who would become Secretary of State. He welcomed the Hoynes idea as he was a powerful US Senator from Texas
You make some good points but the president may have known that if he made the vice-president more visible and gave him more power that might have raised questions.So maybe Hoynes should have talked to the president and not Leo about getting more power and been more visible.Also did Hoynes ever know that the president told Leo about his MS?
I love that Leo calls him "Mr. Vice President" at the beginning of the scene but "John" at the end
That is because they were not alone at the beginning. :)
Mr. VP in public, John behind closed doors. Shows how Leo really sees the balance of power.
@@jesusthroughmary I don’t agree. He called him John to show that he was going to win if it really came to wetting on a brick wall.
Yes, he is Mr. Vice President in public, but the ‘John’ was still to prove his point
You start off with the respect your position entitles you to. You finish with the respect you entitle yourself to.
It was a sign of Disrespect. 👎
I always feel like Sorkin could never quite figure out what he wanted to do with Hoynes, which is why he's offscreen for the majority of the show.
Yeah Sorkin (and John Wells when Sorkin left) really screwed a few of the character storylines. Add Sam and Will to the list.
The Bartlet and Hoynes relationship was meant to emulate the tense alliance between John F Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson. LBJ felt underutilized. The situation also reminds me of the dynamic between the patrician and liberal Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the more conservative Texan, John Nance Garner, who notoriously called the vice presidency "a bucket of warm piss".
They screwed Hoynes royally. He was an interesting character, and could have been more. But they wrote him off with a zipper problem just to simplify the plot and bring in B-1 Bob.
@@glenndallas7171 No, I think it was planned from the start to have Hoynes come back and run for Prez the way he did.
Veep can probably give you a pretty good explanation on why Hoynes, and irl Harris, are rarely shown to do anything.
You got a best friend? Is he smarter than you? Would you trust him with your life?...that's your chief of staff!
Barlet is way more smart than Leo. In that office, Barlet and Toby shared the smart crown.
@@mikaku On some things, maybe. I suspect that Leo is smarter when it comes to the ins and outs of being a political technician, while Bartlett is smarter in general and perhaps as an ideas man. Frankly, that's probably a good combination for a prez and his chief of staff.
@@mikaku Leo was wiser than Bartlet and was less ideological. Especially in emotionally difficult times, Leo was able to keep the president grounded and focused.
But better tell him the truth. Because this was a dumb move. Hoynes could have destroyed Bartlett by revealing his MS. Problem is, Leo didn't know.
That was a good scene when Bartlett was going to be doing state of the union and he was talking literally to the designated survivor senator or whoever wouldn’t be there.
Bartlet and Hoynes needed each other, although both hated to admit it. Hoynes brought support from the moderate-conservative Democrats that Bartlet lacked and Bartlet gave Hoynes credibility among the liberals, which would have been critical for Hoynes if he wanted to run for President after Bartlet. Plus Hoynes was under the impression that Bartlet would only serve one term, so it was in his interest for him to bite his lip and be a loyal VP.
In a technical point the Chief of Staff for the White House can talk to the Vice President as such. The Vice President can't fire him, and the Chief of Staff is one of the few people who have access to the President at any given time. Is he more powerful than the VP? In a sense. Who's more likely to become President? The VP. So they're both more powerful in a sense in different ways.
+Tobi Ojo Yes, but Leo is much heavier in the Democratic Party than Hoynes. And he's a far more cunning politician. He's basically telling Hoynes that, if they go at each other, the one that'll end up humiliated will be Hoynes. Note that Hoynes actually seemed to agree with the fact that Leo would win this.
It depends on who the President gives more power, if the President is closer to the VP I doubt the chief of staff would dare threaten a VP. It is all just nameless titles in the end, but the power flows from the president. If the President's BFF is secretary of agriculture then he will be the next more powerful man. We know how powerful Dick Chenney was during the Bush years. In the show Leo is only as important as Bartlett makes him, during the Israel Palestine conflict, President ignores Leo's advice for Kate Harper so your position can change just as the President stops listening to you. But if you consider Leo's influence on the democratic party as separate then that is a different issue.
The VP has no constitutional duties except to preside over the senate. He has no power. He also doesn't have to take orders from the president or the chief of staff. However, they could drop him from the ticket next time and they could ruin him, politically. Since almost all VP's want to be president, they usually are team players, at least in appearance.
The dangerous part for the chief of staff is if something happens to the president. The chief of staff could find himself suddenly outflanked not just in the white house but with the party at large.
In this sense as well Leo had the President's full backing, meaning he knew he could act however he wanted within reason. However, without the President's backing the Chief of Staff is vulnerable since they can easily be fired, whereas the Vice President is virtually immovable.
That immovability also gives the VP the power to effectively act however he wants, and it's exactly that power dynamic this scene deals with brilliantly.
In less than two minutes, he was diminished from Mr. Vice President to John.
Disrespect for the Constitution.
Boy, that degree from Faber College took him all the way to the Vice Presidency!
I thought he was a gynecologist in Beverly Hills.
Anybody knows what episode this is?
It's important to remember two things about this scene. One, the president had just embarrassed Hoynes in front of the Cabinet earlier in the episode. Two, Hoynes knows the president has MS and isn't going to run for a second term...and Leo *doesn't* know it.
Hoynes thought that it was a co-presidency and he could set the agenda at a cabinet meeting. No sir. No sir you can't. The vice president has no authority unless the president allows it, dies, resigns or is removed from office.
@@seanwebb605 Hoynes got the meeting started because the president was late to it. He wasn't trying to set any kind of agenda.
@@PaperbackWizard Nonsense.
@@PaperbackWizard Maybe that wasn't the first time Hoynes did something like that at a cabinet meeting and don't forget in an earlier episode Hoynes sort of took credit for the passing of a gun bill i think.So maybe the president needed to put the vice-president in his place
@@aph1976 First of all, Hoynes *did* get the bill passed. It wouldn't have happened without him, just like Bartlett wouldn't have become president without him. Second, you don't "put the vice president in his place" for getting a meeting started that *you* were late to.
I agree with a lot of commentators that this scene is not likely in real life. It is after all just a TV show. However, wiki says: "In general, a chief of staff provides a buffer between a chief executive and that executive's direct-reporting team. The chief of staff generally works behind the scenes to solve problems, mediate disputes, and deal with issues before they are brought to the chief executive." So, I think that this meeting is possible, and a courtesy to the VP from Leo before it reaches the President. And Leo is clear that a directive from CJ is a directive from this office, the office of the President. As the President's chief of staff, Leo speaks under the authority of the President in all areas except where the President's word is required by law such as ordering an attack, or firing high ranking officials. But before all that happens Leo could put anyone on notice such as a member of the Cabinet, or a member of the Joint Chiefs, or VP that they are coloring out of the lines, and the wishes of the President. Because when he does so, he is doing it on the authority of the President, so that the President doesn't have to personally argue with those in his administration one on one, every time there's an issue. The chief of staff shields the President from all the mental-crap, so he can govern. Unlike the VP the chief of staff is not a politician, he works for the President. Hoynes is a politician, and the next presumptive nominee, so his motives have to be scrutinized. That's why the President hires a chief of staff, to have a person he trusts helping him to control his administration, what it accomplishes, and how it will be remembered.
It’s knot a bad point because there are a million instances in the show where meetings, situations, etc. would never take place.
This scene is ridiculous. Vice Presidents take the role knowing they are glorified understudies/wing men. Writing the VP as a Drama Queen foil to the President is just a lazy trope, especially when there are many other legitimate issues they could pull from. Sorry, but I can't suspend my belief this far
I remember this scene first run. What makes Leo is he’s a VERY SMART pit bull! He’s got the teeth but wise enough to growl at you a little to see if you get the message.✌🏾😉
I liked Tim Matheson in this role. Except when they made it out that he couldn't keep in his pants. Would have been cool to see him in more scenes with Leo and Bartlett.
That was more to write him off the show so when the President's daughter was taken he would be forced to concede the presidency short term to a republican Speaker of the House played by John Goodman.
Well, what do you expect from VP Otter.
@@pvthitch He knows his stuff. He's in pre-law.
Tim did well playing a jerk of a character. I’d rather have seen him as a better man (the character) but that’s how it was written.
He got fired for messing up an overseas trip.... Something about Germans bombing Pearl harbor..
It wasn't calling him John that was so dismissive, it was picking up the papers and starting to read...basically saying "whatever your title, I am in charge and I am done with you, you are dismissed"
“John Hoynes, Vice President. Damn glad to meet you!”
Hi, that was John Hoynes, Vice President, he was damn glad to meet you
@@Will87 You guys channel Animal House quite well... Still trying to figure out how many terms Senator Blutarski served...
@@reelsoffortuneslotsplay4267 wait was he the one who stole Mandy Pepperidge from Greg Marmalard?
@@Will87 LOL Boon always left Katy hanging
@@RacerGirl48 I believe he was!!!! Let me check with Babs!!!!
I'd like to think the line where Hoynes mentions being President Bartlett's "whipping boy" has been adapted from a story Nixon told about Eisenhower's CoS, Gen. "Beetle" Smith, who once lamented to him that he was just "Ike's prat boy" . It's a great interview.
Celebrity golf. Celebrity golf, John.
Just hope the ROTC squad isn't on the drill field, when Otter is playing golf.
You don't mess with LEO !!! Got it ? LOL Great writers, great actors, great show.
Every scene with Hoynes was a winner.
If the VP was something of a rogue, I can completely see the White House Chief of Staff talking to the VP this way...I can only imagine was McCain's would have had to say to Palin...
"Cause I'll win" and hoynes knows it. Haha. Badass
Yeah a lot of Hoynes was based off Lyndon Johnson. Senator from Texas, Senate Majority Leader, ran for president but lost to a New England Democrat then ended up getting the VP slot and later got credit for helping the ticket in the south. Plus much like how Kennedy and Johnson weren't too fond of each other Bartlett and Hoynes were that same way. So I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson had that kind of conversation with Kennedy's Chief of Staff.
Kennedy didn't have a Chief of Staff.
If JFK were President today, he probably would have a Chief of Staff. But JFK might have placed RFK as his Chief of Staff (and had a waiver on the US Code 5110 ) instead of Attorney General. The modern day Chief of Staff seems more powerful than most of the Cabinet.
President Kennedy didn't have an official Chief of Staff -- the position hadn't actually been created yet. But Kenny O'Donnell functioned for President Kennedy much like a present-day Chief of State would do.
JFK’s “pal” or right hand man was his brother Bobby. And Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy definitely had hostility between them.
One thing we have learned is don't meet Leo in a dark room or your butt will be toast!
The West Wing was awesome TV.
I never understood why Leo wasn't as tough on Bob Russell as he was on John Hoynes.
WW was TV entertainment at it's highest level.
More precisely, the CoS and VP both have precisely as much power as the White House chooses to delegate to them (plus, in the VPs case, the ability to break tie votes in the Senate). The last couple VPs have been fairly powerful (especially Cheney) but that's not always the case, and obviously wasn't in the Bartlett administration.
Yeah Pence and Harris aren’t exactly “powerful” VPs. Although Pence did sort of save the day on January 6, but beyond that pretty much an average VP. I don’t even know what Harris is doing.
@@dansmodacct Check the date I posted that on.
@@Meloncov I know, but I'm so over Cheney, plus I was I validating your point about mostly weak VPs
Don't ever cross Leo, EVER, on ANYTHING. he was such a great character
You know I generally like this show but as a moderate, pragmatic, southern Democrat I always took issue with how this show portrayed Hoynes...and Southern Democrats in general. Bartlet, the idealistic New England Liberal couldn't help but hold out his contempt for Hoynes, the Texas moderate with Senate experience. They even had an episode where a Southerner calls Sam out for making fun of the South and I'm like "yeah they do."
I won't say you're wrong, but there is a moment when all this comes to a head when Hoynes wants to know why the hell Bartlett even wants him as VP and Bartlett's response is "I might die." So he has all kinds of disagreements with Hoynes but he feels he would be the best successor if something happened
It has got to be illegal. Love the line about directing one to the men's room though. Yes. All roads lead to Home A loan Too
Mike Pence is just playing the role of a good VP to Trump, nothing more, nothing less.
Until the end.......thank God!
I know Hoynes was meant to be a sleaze, sometimes antagonist, but I always felt bad for him. It's clear he's smart, he's good at what he does, and he had the exact qualities in the right amounts to be a decent President someday. And he was treated like shit from day 1 because he made Bartlett beg him to join the ticket. He had a genuine shot at the presidency, and he blew it all because he couldn't keep it in his pants, and didn't know when to get off the stage.
Comeuppance
@MegaObserver1 Actually, the reason they couldn't fire him is that the Vice President is elected, not appointed.
Vice president are not really elected they tag along
President's can't fire their Vice Presidents but they can discredit them into resignation
This is what I love. Its also why Band of Brothers works so well. We support these characters, we're on their side, but every now and then they dip a toe in the dickhead pool.
Celebrity golf, John. Celebrity golf.
I like this scene as a demonstration between being technically right and practically right.
The lawful constitutional ideal vs the real world reality.
This is a great scene, but I just like that Leo calls CJ a good girl. It could so easily be demeaning, but Leo makes it sound like he means it: shes damn good at her job.
He was much older than her and saw the staff as kids... Just one of those things that happens when you become an old person...
@@OlaBetiku I’m only 32 rn, but there’s so many teenagers at my work, I know how that feels already. 🥲
In practice VPs used to just stay at home unless needed for something.
From a constitutional standpoint, the VP has almost ZERO duties to fill. His future political opportunity rests with his performing duties as the President requires. Those who aren't team players rarely get a chance to run themselves and would likely be removed from the second term ticket.
Yes but "The West Wing" portrayed a very dated viewpoint of the Vice Presidency, from the '60s. Vice Presidents since Agnew and Quayle have been increasingly heavy hitters and independent power centers in their own right, with close relationships to the President and key advisory roles. The last sitting Vice President to be removed from the ticket was Henry Wallace in 1944 and that was because he had gone very far leftward at a time when a more centrist (from the 1940s standpoint, not ours) view was needed during and after the war.
So many back and forth's here. The VP is right, Leo doesn't have authority to order the Vice President to do a damn thing. Leo is right, the Vice President does NOT refer to the President as "your pal". The VP is right, that he shouldn't be treated like a punk, by the President or anyone in his administration. Leo is right, the VP is to publicly offer full throated support to the President. They can disagree in private all they want, but when the President makes a decision, that's it. And the Vice President is to back him up on it, not sneak behind his back.
Hoynes was right. Directives to the Vice President should come from the President - not from the Chief of Staff.
Unless Leo was referring to President Bartlett giving Hoynes the directive and Leo being the messenger
@@RacerGirl48 I agree; but I also agree with Toby. Leo did give Executive Orders on his own, without direction from the President.
Hoynes should have rejected Bartlett's offer to be his running mate
At that point in the primaries, Hoynes couldn't win. Had he rejected Bartlet, Bartlet would've picked someone else. If it didn't balance the ticket right, Bartlet could've lost. That'd leave Hoynes nothing instead of the chance to be Vice President. PLUS, Bartlet had to tell Hoynes about the MS, so Hoynes is probably thinking to himself "he could die, and I'd get the Oval Office". And the Vice Presidency is a stepping-stone to the White House anyway.
By Bartlett admission he never did get along with his VP's. He did respect the power brand of Hoynes though.
No wonder Hoynes was so quick to try running for office while still Vice President.
Al Gore tried something similar. George Bush had a very tough campaign against Reagan until the Gipper wont eh nomination for president. He changed tactics while serving as vice president and tried not to make his ambitions too obvious publicly.
I loooved this show. But if there's one thing I ALWAYS had a problem with, it was the treatment of VP Hoynes. It was a sour issue with me.
i agree!
"Politics ain't beanbag!" -- Finley Peter Dunne, muckraking journalist.
I would have said, "I like Golf. Goodnight Leo. Next time, you come to my house.". 😊
+MIke Hanley And that's why you're typing out comments on RUclips, and Aaron Sorkin is writing screenplays.
We all have our talents. I'm a better Auctioneer than Sorkin is. And I didn't say I would have "Written" the line I said that is what I would have said if I were the Vice President. :>)
@boyinthedrain He calls him "Mr. Vice President" because Margaret is in the room.
Hoynes was right in this case.
Technically "Letter of the Law" right doesn't always match reality. And as this show progressed, Leo proved who had the real power. That was the message - play nice or get your balls busted and your political career ended.
Hoynes was never right in all his life.
No he wasn't... Hoynes constantly tried to undermine Bartlett, and Leo put him right in his place where he belonged.
He is never right. The President is always right. Leo took him to school because the president told him to.
Good night, Mr. Vice President or Sir.
Another thing that I would love to do which concerns to building a system of justice is to support our President so that he has the peace of mind to make the best decisions for the country which necessarily will impact beyond this country. The good and strong mindset favors a positive and constructive relationship with leaders of the other nations in this world.
Sustainable decisions favor the whole planet - and everybody wins.
Even though I am an American citizen, multinational means a lot to me. I don't ever forget that; it is in me. Leaders of other nations want to be inspired by strong leadership so that they can mirror it and adapt to their particular situation.
Leo gives Otter a beat-down.
@YouFyrst Don't think Daley would but I think Rahm Would.
If I was the Vice President I would resign.
It's a pretty crappy position. But you get a nice house, a plane, a staff and they send you around the world to run errands. If you're Mike Pence you do all of the heavy lifting of governing while sucking up to an incompetent and corrupt boob until his supporters try to hang you.
1:32 I love how Leo doesn't even dismiss Hoynes. Just goes back to what he was working on.
He did dismiss him when he picked up his papers to finback to work. That's a non- verbal dismissal
They always make Hoynes look like he’s imprisoned at the White House so he can’t be against them.
Until Dick Cheney the vice president usually had their office in the Capitol Building and came to the White House on invitation. They didn't tend to maintain their office and staff inside the White House.
This dynamic is interesting in politics. Do you pick a VP who helps you win the election (as was the case in WW), or do you pick a VP who helps you govern the country as your partner?
You need to win first before you can govern. Biden understood that, Hillary didn't
Won't get to govern the country if you can't win with your VP pick!
I liked Leo put hoynes in his place.
Celebrity Golf sounds nice
Yeah it does, seeing that being the president or vice president of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is just a managers job : ( Presidents have no power at all, neither does congress and sadly neither do the people of the United States
Leo didn't say " goodnight Mr. vice president" Hoynes should have called him on that . Seeing that Leo said "my boy " earlier in the conversation .... That was a writing mistake . Or maybe it wasn't
That's good night MR. VICE PRESIDENT. Even if you do like him. You still RESPECT the OFFICE he holds.
In other words don’t mess with Leo
Talk about being put in your place!
2024.
Will you defend America this time, Donald John TRUMP? Against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic? Oh yes. And allow Americans (and forgive the word) OTHER Americans to help you decide who those enemies are?
Senator Addison Mitchell MCCONNELL answered that already. TRUMP will let you know when he is Put In office again.
I'd like to be a fly on the wall if Bill Daley pulled this on Joe Biden. LOL
Why is John pissed off at the president and Leo?
Totally disgusting that they never even gave Hoynes the respect of getting his orders from the President himself.
Hoynes and Bartlett were political allies, but the reality is there was no love lost between the two. The VP's job is to support the President's policies and position, and he undermined his boss. Bartlett can't fire the VP (elected official!) but he can deal with him in a way that leaves no uncertainty about who's in charge.
He had already had issues with Bartlett, who decided to delegate this time.
Leo is a total assassin...
I'm not American. What exactly does the VP do? I know they preside over the Senate, but on a day to day basis do they have a role in government?
Not really.......unless the Senate is a 50/50 split.......and then the VP is the tie breaking vote
Leo's a wartime consigliere
Leo's da man
Pinto made it to VP but isn't happy...
Otter, not Pinto.
I can only imagine how this scene actually happened in any administration. Any thoughts?
According to all the interviews I've seen, the 2nd most powerful person is not the VP but the CoS who derives his authority from the President. In practice I think the outcome of this engagement depends on the administration. Based on my observation, this would not happen in a Trump administration as he did not share his authority with anyone and fired anyone who attempted to show some. Under Obama, it appeared at least publicly, that the VP was on board and may not have needed reigning in. Under Bush, well could you imagine anyone summoning Cheney? I would argue he was the president for all practical purposes.
I could see Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon doing this. Indeed, the Kennedy-Johnson dynamic is what the Bartlet-Hoynes dynamic is based on. Reagan, the Bushes, Clinton and Obama all seemed (at least publicly) to have good relations with their VPs. I'm interested to know what will happen with Biden-Harris. I wonder if there's a one-term deal, given his age.
@@bobbyf1741 Biden was a more veteran political operative and had better relationships in both houses of congress than Obama. But Biden had lost the nomination a couple of times and thought that he was unlikely to ever get the nomination. Plus I do think he believes in serving his country. My understand was that Biden was given room to speak freely with Obama and argue his points. But when the time came it wasn't a co-presidency. Biden knew that Obama was the man.
Trump thinks public office should run like his corrupt businesses with his children assuming roles and triple billing for work that they didn't do.
Somehow I can see Rahm Emanuel being like this, but with more profanity.
Supposedly he was the basis/inspiration for the Josh Lyman character.
@bluesboy25000 Yep.
The show was NOT FAIR to Hoynes.
Unrealistic..A Chief of Staff could do that but would never have endgame success at intimidating a VP
except that is was Leo McGarry, ex-Secretary of Labor and all around political badass who convinced Bartlet to name Hoynes as his running mate after pretty much ensuring that Bartlet would beat Hoynes for the Democratic nomination and eventual election. despite his bluster, Hoynes knew that Leo could destroy him if he had half a mind to do so
Andrew Murdough ..Oh that explains it...I mean ya didnt But it's alright
@@leegrabelsky2696 Leo McGarry is not just the White House Chief of Staff, he is a very close and old personal friend of the President of the United friggin States AND his most loyal supporter AND a man with more political experience than Hoynes could ever dream of. And when Hoynes undermines the President's position, you'd better damned well believe Leo's got the authority to yank hard on the VP's leash, because I guarantee Bartlett would have Leo's back if Hoynes decided to make an issue of it. Leo was appointed by Bartlett, so Hoynes can't fire him. Since both men answer directly to the most powerful man in US government, who do you think the president is going to look more favorably on, especially given Hoynes' little stunt in New York? And Hoynes can't complain that Leo isn't doing his job, because Leo is backing the President's policies and reminding the loose-cannon VP of exactly who BOTH MEN work for.
xaenon
...1st off It's a TV Show?..Hello?
I didn't say Hoynes ..played by Tim Matheson..Could fire The Chief of Staff....And I don't know what The "Friggin" President of The United States description as ya say had to do with...Whatever it had to do with..
...
Neverthless The Hoynes character still being a Friggin VP in non TV show general milieu terms... Doesn't get subjected to lambasting reprimands by Chief of Staffs
@@leegrabelsky2696 First of all, if it's 'just a TV show', why did you run your mouth in the first place? Thy actions and thy remarks are inconsistent. Hmmmmmm....
The fact that Hoynes can't fire McGarry, coupled by the fact that Leo is acting in full support of the man at the top GIVES him the authority to remind Hoynes just how, where, when, and to what degree he screwed up. Hoynes doesn't have a leg to stand on, and he sure as hell wasn't going to get support from the President he had just undermined.
As for the rest of it.... Yeah, keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy.
Leo sounds kinda trumpy there
the presidents chief of staff would never talk to the vice president like that
leo = badass
Hoynes was doing fine right up until he disrespected the President. One ill chosen comment and Leo ends him and his career.
Okeedokes
Leo is not to be fucked with
Leo McGarry was such a grumpy, miserable, old curmudgeon. I couldn't really stand him a lot of the time.
This scene lacks context.
jimmyfly No, it isn't. It's a Democratic Party political broadcast.
Joe Francis Wah, wah...
Joe Francis then why are you here?
"3 years of the show to get the necessary context"
IIRC this was the second or third episode, so no, not really.
@@Dabhach1 Leave your political alignment on the curb and just watch the show, son. You might learn something.
Ahhhh Hollywood. What a joke.
The president's chief of staff would never talk to the vice president like that.
+Tobi Ojo How do you know?
+Tobi Ojo Consider it Leo talking on behalf of the President to the Vice President
Considering Leon Panetta who Leo was loosely based on said that Leo's problem was he wasn't mean enough... I kinda tend to think you're wrong.
He wouldn't do it without the ok from the president. The president tells him how to deal with the situation involving the VP.
@@MrJamberee Certainly, and I agree with you. Although, the problem with the OP's comment really is the assumption that all administrations function exactly the same way. They don't. I'm tempted to point out the chaos in this administration from the lack of a cohesive chain of a command and an even more incompetent guy at the top of it, but I can let that alone. The Chief of Staff in the show is made out to be like a "co-president" of sorts, but thats not necessarily true of all administrations. And its a TV show. But as a point of personal power, the Vice President has absolutely no authority over the President's Chief of Staff, hes free to say whatever he wants to the VP, and the VP can't even direct him to a men's room in retaliation.
I love that Leo calls him "Mr. Vice President" at the beginning of the scene but "John" at the end
There was nobody else in the room at the end. And he was tired of him. But if somebody else was in the room, it would have been Me. Vice President.
So much for respecting the office
In a technical point the Chief of Staff for the White House can talk to the Vice President as such. The Vice President can't fire him, and the Chief of Staff is one of the few people who have access to the President at any given time. Is he more powerful than the VP? In a sense. Who's more likely to become President? The VP. So they're both more powerful in a sense in different ways