What does Snowgrave mean for the future of Deltarune?
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- Опубликовано: 19 ноя 2021
- Undertale footage is from "Spazbo."
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Deltarune footage is from myself. So feel free to make fun of me for being bad at the game if it's Deltarune. 
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I've heard the idea that following the Weird Route (and potential future routes along those lines) could be a way to "rebel" against the fantasy plot being pushed by Ralsei, even if it results in an objectively worse outcome for everyone. Kind of reminds me of how Spamton NEO is "his own worst invention" despite the fact that the body's supposedly granting him freedom of some sort
I did say something along those lines in my other video :p
Am I shilling too hard? Hmm.
Yeah I kind of wonder if we're gonna get heavily subverted in this game. Because the UT fandom touts the pacifist route as an untouchable perfect route, going as far as backseating streamers and content creators outside of the community aggressively to force them to get the good ending. All in the name of "getting the most content out of the game". Yes I've legitimately seen many people in this community say this and use it as their reasoning as to why they backseated someone's gameplay experience when most of the normal people in this community condemn that behavior and see it as incredibly damaging to the image (and overall experience) of UT as a whole. I almost kind of hope Ralsei is there to address this, acting as the catalyst of all the "good" backseaters, pressuring the player into being a complete pacifist to get the "good" ending. We kind of see this in the beginning before you enter the door when he states something along the lines of pacifism leading to the best outcome of this story. But, he doesn't realize that maybe pacifism isn't always the answer. This is illuded to during the King fight, exposing his naivety in healing the tyrant after you tire him out or take him down causing something almost horrible to happen. Do I think Snowgrave is at all the answer for a better ending? No. In fact, there might not be any major divergence in the endings in the first place according to Toby. Though I do suspect that your choices throughout the game will make a significant impact on that fated outcome. But what I can imagine is the pacifist route having potentially negative consequences or becoming significantly more inconvenient as the story goes on, along with possibly moral questioning when the context changes. Should you spare something that will kill others or imprison them? At what point do morally darkened actors deserve forgiveness for their actions? I want to see some of these questions addressed in this game. Because UT is great, but it doesn't go into some of those dimensions where I could really see DR break out and have a unique message shrouded in moral ambiguity rather than righteousness versus mutiny.
@@greyscaleadavento be fair a lot of people played neutral, called the game shit, then stopped. I feel like that would put a bad taste in a lot of the community.
@@polocatfan That's true, and a lot of that is largely derived from people being so demanding about what everyone's experience should be. Not everyone's going to get it or want to understand beyond sans megalovania memes or 'that one game with a questionable community', and that's honestly okay. I do hope that DR doesn't just repeat UT's message though. Because that would make the weight really fall out of the storytelling and buildup. A good successor doesn't copy the previous installment, it changes it's direction using those previous stories to tell an entirely new one. I hope that's what DR is to UT.
I’m thinking it’ll be something like how the neutral/pacifist end of Undertale is still a sort of “bad” ending, and that there’s going to be a way of breaking the control without terrible consequences.
I think a better name for the Snowgrave Route would be the "Choices" route. The player might not be able to fully control Kris (yet), but the entire premise of Snowgrave is the the Player recognizes Noelle's ability to kill and bypasses Kris's unwillingness (or inability) to do so by making Noelle into their pawn. After all, how DARE Kris take our agency from us, the Player? Sure, we'll kill everyone they care about and not lose a wink of sleep over it, but who cares? It's just a video game! *(To us.)*
This might be the reason why Kris hides their knife from us in the Light World: *they know what we want to do with it.*
I feel that we might possess Noelle in a later chapter depending on our choices.
I always call it the Twisted Route, after the blade you can supposedly forge and the actions taken. Twisting the world till it breaks.
@@flagonking1337 or at least the people in it.
The other blade component would probably be from the evil rout of chapter 3
Pipis Route will never not be my name for it
In hindsight, it might be a significant "coincidence" that the Papyrus confrontation happens in the Snow. You have to be really Cold-hearted to do these routes...hah hah hah.
Heh. I used that footage because it was relevant and thematically appropriate, but it would be interesting if it was intended that way...
One thing a lot of people miss about the Papyrus encounter is that the "blizzard" texture that obscures Frisk and Papyrus is the same texture as the Dark Fountains and the Intro scene to Deltarune.
2 characters are unnaccounted for
Papyrus and Dess
Speaking of condemning the player, I really hope Deltarune doesn't make the player out to be a bad person because of Kris' situation. You can't blame the player for playing the game when you didn't offer another alternative, we didn't know we would control Kris.
In Snowgrave it's ok because the player is actually going out of their way to abuse their control of Kris. It's in the normal route where villanizing the player wouldn't work.
You chose to play the game.
@@Sydney_Angelyt that's right i chose to play a game, not possessing a innocent teen
I saw a fangame where player finally finds his original vessel and then they fight kris and they peacefully end the battle
I don’t think Toby Fox would make that turn in the story. He’s the guy who said they wished we could befriend everyone
It sounds like Kris wasn’t doing so hot before the events of deltarune, so (excluding weird route stuff) the player seems to be helping Kris in general
In regards to what you said about people thinking Undertale was too "preachy" and judgmental toward the player...
You're absolutely right about it being the characters, not the author/devs doing the judging.
A story with a good plot is nowhere near as good as a story with good characters, and believable characters are what make the reader/player able to relate to and understand why the plot matters at all. You wouldn't give half a shit about freeing monsterkind if none of the characters had any sort of internal conflict, any flaws or any realistic traits at all.
Which makes it all the more emotional when you do wind up starting a genocide route.
I think anyone saying that is feeling uncomfortable and projecting. They don't want to bear the weight of their actions (fictional as they may be) so they justify themselves by saying "the game is just being preachy and judgemental!"
Honestly, this is somewhat how I feel towards Spec ops: The line in a way. I just feel like it says more about the state of military shooter war games that turn war into a joke where there is a clear good and bad guy than the actual writing.
To go off of that whole “Finding good in the Snowgrave Route” idea you mentioned in the end, I don’t remember where I heard this but I’m claiming it as my own. Deltarune’s all about subverting expectations, both the expectations of a normal RPG and the expectations of a Toby Fox game. What if pacifism DOESN’T net you the best ending? What if the Knight-or whoever the true final boss of Deltarune ends up being-is too strong to defeat with a regular party and too stubborn to be spared? The only way to win on a merciful file is with some kinda deus-ex-machina or an obtuse side quest type thing? Still ending in a satisfying way, but with a few threads left untied and implications there’s more to be done. In order to PROPERLY finish DeltaRune, you need to do a full corruption playthrough and fight the final boss with a full squadron of manipulated, powered up characters from throughout previous chapters? Snowgrave Noelle, Firegrave Toriel, perhaps even more characters that may be able to get pushed into killing like Catri or Monster Kid. A truly satisfying ending only attainable by doing what RPGs are known best for: endlessly grinding.
after playing undertale I had an idea to make a game story with an ending which resolves all the plot threads, leaving characters happy and the player satisfied, but with subtle clues throughout nudging the tin-foil-hat player to piece together a recontextualization to the ending. the idea I had was that a town (where characters resided and the game took place) was doomed to face a calamity after the game ended which could only be averted via a tragic hidden ending which leaves characters broken but guarantees their survival off-screen after the credits rolled. the hope was to satisfy the majority of players but also provide an extra layer of depth for anyone who liked the game enough to analyze the crap out of it, where the reality wasn't actually good/bad endings but bitter-sweet/different-bitter-sweet endings.
anyhoo, rambling aside, another possibility is that deltarune could have "only 1 ending" where everything is happy and the plot resolved but Kris remains enslaved by the soul (perhaps control is passed from the player to another entity, perpetuating their lost freedom) and the narrow thread of events to avoid this fate requires consistently pursuing similarly harrowing snowgrave routes in the upcoming chapters. most players would be content with the normal ending (not picking up the clues about Kris' longing for freedom) and the only way for Noelle to solve the mystery behind Kris' changed personality and subsequently free them from the soul, is when the player acts as an ultimate villain upon their world.
Something that could really shake things off would be if the final boss require one of your friends to sacrifice themselves in a pacifist route due to no being strong enough
I don't think that's where the story will go but that's a really cool idea
I'm late, but I think there's a bit that's important to note: You do have an army of recruited enemies. Remembering the end from both the first and the second chapters, the ending of a full-pacifist run could be your party not being strong enough, but you beat the last boss with the help of everyone. That wouldn't break the "one ending rule" since in a full-weird run you'd have a party strong enough to beat the last boss.
Of course, there's always the possibility that neither run results in a good ending and the world just ends with the Roaring (I do find it difficult to believe that this would be chosen ending. You never know, tho).
Edit: Also, I played "Oneshot" recently. I brought this up because the theme of a "player", "the world is just a game", etc, is also explored. Not only that, but you do have only one "true" ending, even though at first it seems that you'd be able to choose between two options to get two different endings. So, following that line of thought, Deltarune could very well work under the same rules - in which you follow diffent routes that apparently lead to different endings, but the "true and only" ending exists outside of said routes. Just a thought that I don't see people commenting about much, sorry about the mumbling.
Is an interesting idea, but I don’t see that likely. The route that has a lot of more content and detail is the “pacifist” one similar to Undertale. Also, in his Twitter Toby Fox said something about Deltarune being about making friends with everyone. So, his vision for the game is playing it in the normal way, but with Snowgrave with have another option to achieve the same. You get stronger by 2 ways: fighting and snowgrave, or by recruiting the enemies and fighting together. Similar of how chapter 2 ended. In the pacifist ending you fight and make a Mecanic body with the help of the friends you make your way... and in Snowgrave you use Noelle to defeat Spamtom.
16:45 toby fox has explicitly stated that this game has one single ending. i trust him to handle this tactfully, in which context, i wouldn't consider it "throwing it away." frankly, a story where you kill and traumatize (presumably) many people just to successfully sweep it all under the rug has the potential to be a lot more horrifying than chara going "boo! you understand how you're a bad person if you think this is a good thing now!"
(at this point i almost doubt anything is capable of changing people's minds on that level but i bet you chapter 7 will be amazing either way)
Interesting. I hadn't heard that. Admittedly I haven't done my homework on his statements.
with the one ending thing, i feel like Toby is going in the direction of the Neutral Route in UT for the ending in DR, the main events are going to stay the same but with different variants depending what you did.
I’m convinced that the “One ending” is that Kris and the soul will separate. Who/what we inhabit and if/how Kris survives afterwards will be determined by our influence on our classmates.
@@Fenrick In regards to there being only one ending, and nothing we do mattering, he said "There's something more important than reaching the end."
@@ElectricBarrier My theory is that it is all about the journey. Depending on what choices you make, you can influence the world around you, and while the ending is just something like "you save the world" or "kris breaks free from you", it can implied through dialogue that you DID change the characters' lives, for the better... or the worse.
It just hit me now. Berdly is a gamer. He's likely played a lot of RPGs. So when Noelle says they're 'getting stronger', that probably has darker undertones for Berdly given that they're in a video game-like world. What is the principle way you 'get stronger' in most RPGs? (Or at least the most prominent; getting better equipment or learning skills not tied to level ups is often a faster way to actually gain power.)
maybe that’s why he responded so harshly…
"A kid running around and punching frogs all day"
For some reason that line killed me
Either I'm way too early, or this is underrated. But either way this is quite a nice video for a smaller channel. I like the analysis.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Hey you posted this comment when it came out so you’re early lol
I think people feel Undertale is kinda preachy not because of Genocide, but because of the Neutral Route. You are criticized for self defense against people who _will_ kill you if you let them.
And sure they are all decent people who can be reasoned with, even Flowey in the end, but you dont know that. There isnt room for nuance when Undertale examines morals. You are either a Pacifist or Evil, unlike Deltarune.
That's a good point. I have my own thoughts on that but I didn't really have a chance to talk about that. For the record. I do kind of agree that Undertale goes too far with that, and it was kind of refreshing to see Deltarune not do that same thing over again.
It is kind of complicated though, for two reasons. First is that the neutral endings aren't "bad," they're just a step short of granting salvation to all monsters, and I guess you really do have to turn the other cheek and go above and beyond morally justified violence to achieve something like that. Something else, which I think is a much better point, is that reloading saves is actually part of the story, making it more complicated. Killing Undyne would be totally justified if taken at face value, but since there's nothing that actually threatens Frisk's life, I'm really not sure what to make of it.
That being said, I do agree that it did come off as a little on the nose in its love-always-wins sort of message. King was a pretty good reversal of that, as holding back against him gives you literally no advantage as opposed to fighting him.
While I agree that undertale is much too preachy, I feel it's mostly only from the characters, and while it definitely comes off like the game itself is berating you for it, I think it really isn't.
The game is definitely a lot about trying to make you feel bad for killing anything, and I do think it can be very overbearing on that point, but I HIGHLY disagree with the notion that there isn't room for nuance when undertale examines morals. Undertale is specifically ABOUT nuanced morality, considering it's major themes of people who have done incredibly bad things being capable of redemption and being a better person.
Don't get me wrong, I think it fumbles it a bit because of what the game needs you to do, but still. While the game may try to make you feel bad, remember that you're never beyond redemption yourself. Not unless you fully complete a genocide run, and in that case, it may only be Chara who has decided you aren't. Any other time, the good ending is still within reach. You can kill so many you get to LV 20, but if you reset, the game treats it like you've had a change of heart.
Again, it could stand to be less preachy about it here and there, but I think if you don't let that color your perception, you can find a LOT of nuance in undertale's morality even specifically concerning yourself. Partly because that's left up to you. How bad do you actually feel? How justified do you think it is? Neutral route is neutral, you're not evil, you're not even really considered evil if you do 99% of geno. In the end, if you want the happy ending, you just have to earn it. Be a real hero and save all the monsters. In neutral, you're no hero, just human.
Again though I mean, these are just the themes, I do get that the execution is off in places and can feel at odds with what the game is trying to say. Deltarune is definitely doing a better job at that.
@@ElectricBarrier But even in a full genocide route you can undo it by removing the chara files that remember what you did so even that falls short.
@@tudoraragornofgreyscot8482 complete EDIT: Oh wait no I see what you're getting at. I don't think that's a fair point, since this isn't something you're intended to do.
@@ElectricBarrier yeah let’s go with that point, I honestly forgot what I was trying to say
I seen people saying about Deltarune ending being the same no matter what and yes Toby had said that was the case, but I think there's a possibility that the ending might be different from our choices.
In the Steam page of Deltarune when the second chapter was revealed, they added "Only one ending...?" in the page.
But some might think: "Oh that must refer to the Snowgrave route!"
Well no, because it's just one of the paths you can do on the chapter, no matter what we get the same ending with Kris opening the next fountain.
So I think we might have different endings depending of what we do.
I don't think is gonna be like Undertale since they had so many different Neutral endings depending of what you do.
Also just in case, no that doesn't mean Toby lied, it's normal to change stuff when you are developing a game, so his original idea was only one ending but that thought might had changed.
That’s what I think to, like maybe deltarune will end in asriel coming back home but a few things will change depending on what route you took, for example, if you do snowgrave birdly wouldn’t be there to see asriel come from college because he’s probably dead and noelle will be traumatized in the end of the game…etc
@@molo3517 Yeah, like that.
If the ending does end up being just one, it could have alterations depending on your choices.
Toby said 1 ending but he could be referring to chapter 1 cuz there is only minor differences in the plot depending on what we do
@@mattcatt1165 Technically chapter 2 ends the same too, no matter what we do.
So the most likely scenario is that the ending might be the same, but there some differences depending on what we do.
For example, the neutral routes of Undertale, the ending is the same, with Frisk leaving the underground, but depending on what we do, we get different calls.
Is something pretty small, and it doesn't affect the ending.
@@janiradariasmorales7918 I was talking about chapter 7 having a different ending while chapter 1 has 1 ending. also I would say that berdly dying is a different ending.
10:14
i know im late but i just wanna say something.
i always thought of this not as flowey calling out people watching someone else play, but the player themselves. like flowey psycotically saying
"you didnt have the stomach to kill, so you did it in a game."
like hes breaking the fourth wall.
The interesting thing about Sans' Apathy towards the death of others, especially his own brother, is that it really plays into the idea of his apparent knowledge of the alternate timelines and universes. He doesn't do anything in a neutral run because he simply doesn't NEED to. One day, everything will be reset and he'll do it all again anyway. So why does he step up in a genocide run? Because the genocide run ISN'T simply something that goes away with a reset. Once you've done it, it will stick with you forever. The effect it has one the timeline is beyond anything that Omega Flowey or Hypergod of Death, Asriel could EVER do, and Sans knows it.
What I think is interesting is that San’s role is as a judge but in the neutral run he doesn’t even give you a proper judgment unless you go out of your way to reload the game and go through the judgment scene again.
Sans says:
“all that's important is that you were honest with yourself.
what happens now...
we leave up to you.”
He’ll call you out for killing his brother but…. If you were in his shoes…wouldn’t you do the same or worse?
14:30 I doubt that Noelle will actually be able to save Rudy, regardless of route/how strong she is, but I do think she's gonna try to regardless, and she's gonna put up a pretty terrifying fight in the weird route when she does so. Ultimately, any change that gets made in these alternate routes is gonna have to converge back into a single ending at the end, and a plot trajectory where Noelle becomes an antagonist regardless of your choices is a great way to do that, with plenty of storytelling potential/foreshadowing to that effect already. This way, you have all that angst that comes from the fallout of the weird route while keeping the fabric of the story intact.
14:30 Nah, the true way to heal Rudy is to send him to the Dark World and use Heal Prayer or an Item.
I like to think that the story isn't actually going to have a singular ending despite the player being good or bad. I have a theory that Toby may be setting up the story for an ending that tells the player "No. Your choices DO matter. No matter how much the world screams at you that they don't. So always strive to be a good person." Of course, I could totally be wrong about that too.
It's notable that, for one, only Susie has ever actually straight up said your choices don't matter. There are characters that allude to the notion they don't, like Seam and Jevil, but only she's outright said it, especially in those words. Susie is specifically telling Kris in ch. 1 that she doesn't care what their answer is. Seam and Jevil are saying the characters choices don't matter, because they seem to know all of this is scripted in some way.
Ralsei, on the other hand, tells you that he thinks your choices DO matter. Ralsei, the one who suspiciously mentions the TP gauge being an orange bar on the left, and to use keyboard keys or controller buttons to push blocks. Ralsei, who clearly knows more than he lets on and has mysterious conversations with Kris when we aren't there. You have the choice of sparing or killing Jevil and Spamton and they result in different equipment. Being full pacifist in both chapters nets you slightly different outcomes... though the chapter ends the same each time. Clearly our choices do matter, snowgrave changes so much, it probably KILLS a character. Everyone's stuck on this, as if it wasn't something told to us by a character who wasn't even talking to US. I think we've been fooled, because you couldn't kill anything. The main choice in undertale was kill or don't, so it throws you off here.
Speaking of... remember, Flowey said it's "kill or be killed", and we proved him wrong.
@@ElectricBarrier Also, Susie is the only one we really can't control. We can only give her suggestions, but ultimately, she does what she wants. On her date with Noelle, in going with Ralsei, in fighting Lancer- we can't really tell her what to do.
I always thought that when character say “your choices don’t matter”, they are talking to Kris specifically. Kris is not in control of their actions. What Kris wants to choose doesn’t matter. Only the player’s choices matter.
imagine berdly just wakes up in chapter 3, he was just asleep lmao
Very interesting video, I really like your stuff. I actually quit my undertale genocide route about a quarter in because I felt really bad about killing the lesser dog, so I don't think ill be able to mentally handle what Toby has in store for the future.
Fair enough, haha. And thanks, glad you liked it.
I just thought of a horrifying theory. Maybe what Toby means by the game having only one ending is that no matter what you do you can’t defeat the final boss and all actions before then meant nothing. So let’s go with what snowgrave sets up and assume that you make the characters who join your party stronger at the cost of their mental health but even if you do those horrible things to them it still won’t matter and you, the player have to live with the fact that you corrupted these nice towns people for no good reason.
Ive always thought it's that nice matter what, wether we play no mercy, weird route, or the spare option, it won't matter, Kris is who'll have to take care of the new world. The game ends with Kris being free. No matter what
Flowey calling out stream viewers was replay funny to me at the time. I just wasn’t able to afford videos games at the time, and I watched less plays just because it was the only way I could experience games. It was less insulting to me, and more “well I sure would like to try it on my own but I have no money lol”
It was definitely a fun moment for a lot of people I am sure. It was something everyone knew about the game before I got around to playing it though, so I knew it was coming.
Good video! Something I would like to touch on is the role of Chara. There are people I've talked to where, when asked about the Genocide Route, says "yeah I did it but only because Chara made me do it", when at the end of the route Chara states it is US mercilessly killing that causes them to "awaken as a demon". They might not have been a good person in life, but it is our actions that either has them learn "kill or be killed" is bogus or if it's completely true to the fullest extent.
Which brings us to Deltarune, where Kris shares this controlled fate with Chara...except there are constantly signs that our actions as the SOUL are at odds with what Kris wants to do. Even in snowgrave, all the dialogue points which halt the route are flavored in the usual dialogue, while the way forward is a dry "progress". Something I'll be incredibly interested in future chapters is how Kris will treat us as we go forward, pipis route or otherwise.
The genocide run of Undertale also led to a lot of occasions where Frisk acted without player influence, maybe due to Chara. Never going as far as killing people, but, say, walking through Papyrus's puzzles. I might be wrong but I don't think that ever happened in Snowgrave. Instead, you get a choice to do be nice in that situation. Sorry to shill but I had a video that's pretty much all about Kris's will. It's an interesting contrast how we see all these signs of Kris having independent thoughts, but only by removing the soul can they act independently. Not sure what to make of it.
well I think the progress isn't what kris wants to say, but now that we realized it, they can't stop us
God the whole "Chara made me do it" and "it was always chsras fault" stuff always pissed me off to the extreme. I honestly actually scream yelled at one guy and I quote "if the ghost that doesn't even f*ing exist until the very end of the geno route is who's responsible for everyone being dead, then next time you play, don't touch any of your movement keys and see how long it takes for "Chara" to start killing for you"
9:41 toby fox makes a reference to this, In chapter 2 father alvin will talk about how asriel confessed his sins for killing the green lizard by dropping over a pit, and how he completely left out that it was from a video game and also that their religion doesnt do confessions lol. but like he doesnt hate people for playing this route.
Very good video, and you're absolutely right. I don't think Toby is trying to tell you that you're a bad person, just simply that you are doing something wrong in the game, and he wants to make the game reflect that. Often, you can just do things that are flat out wrong in a game, and it's perfectly fine. But, Undertale and Deltarune are intensely story driven and make great efforts to create ludonarrative harmony.
Further, they're meant to hold up a mirror to the player and make you question yourself. Not to make any moral judgments, but to make you ask how you feel when you play these routes, what you think of them, and what if anything does it say about you? Do you not feel bad? If so, why? DO you feel bad? If so, why? And, if you do, what are you gonna do about it?
Well, I personally decided what I'm gonna do about it. Yeah, it's just a game, it's just something to think about. And I have. I've always cared about fictional characters, that's just how I am. Rudy asked Kris to look after Noelle for him.... My first comment to you was about how there's no real way to play Kris responsibly. In this situation me and them have found ourselves in, the best I can do is hold myself accountable and not continue with these routes. Provided, of course, they aren't necessary. I guess if they are, I'll have to get cracking.
I'm also not gonna delete the file where I completed the snowgrave route. I'm interested in how the game will bring that up specifically, because i'm sure there's something for both having one and erasing one.
Glad you liked it. Thanks.
Great vid! I myself am excited to see where this all goes in future chapters too.
I recall Toby mentioning that Deltarune will have only a single ending, so that may imply that regardless of whether you do a pacifistic, neutral, or weird run (in each chapter, no less), the closing act of the story may not even take into account any of that... Which would be really strange. I hope that doesn't mean that Seam's doomsday ramblings are truthful...
Thanks. It really does make me wonder. It's hard to imagine how things will converge short of an apocalyptic event.
well I mean it's not like the rumbling's gonna NOT happen with all the hype around it.
I really enjoyed your analysis. You were able to express many thoughts I'd had about Snowgrave and Genocide, and express a few more for my consideration. I'm also interested to see where Fox takes this game, and he's not given me a reason to doubt him yet.
4:04 In the Final Fantasy 6 ports, the boss of the post game dungeon calls you out for killing all the non-mandatory and usually nonaggressive dragons to gain power, then entering their grave to kill their spirits. (Not that that's brought up anywhere except 2 lines of pre-fight dialogue)
Heh. I'm actually still playing through FF6. Joke's on me for not finishing it faster.
I'd like to see you make a video about the white star we see in the game 'cause there's a lot of very, very interesting stuff with it. Aside from saving the game the white star is also used to store items and check recruts which Ralsei refrences meaning that is indeed an (phisical) object that's cannonicly part of the game's world (unlike something like the options menu which is propably just there for the game's necessity). It is never explained howether what is this white star, why it's there and how it works. Unlike UNDERTALE's yellow star it never refrences determination yet both of them heal us and allow us to save. Saving in deltarune is also very interesting as (unlike in UNDERTALE) we never see a character refrencing an event that happend before a reload HOWEVER when we get the game over screen we not only are given the choice to give up but also hear either Susie or Ralsei speak. Susie tells Kris to get up (she's propably just panicking and yelling at Kris's corpse hoping he just got stunned/knocked over and isn't actually dead) but Relsei says "Don't give up, this is not your fate" which looks like he isn't talking to Kris but to US(the player) derectly indicating that he knows we can reload. An interesting question is also, who does this white star belong to? Is it something that Kris can use ('cause he's a human or something) and we inherit it when we control him(this would also imply that Kris remembers all his deaths) or is this an object only we (the player) can use even without Kris (which could also mean that not even Kris remembers his deaths and other events that took place before a reload)?
So far, the only bit of context we have is the description for the first save star in chapter 1.
"At times you see it flickering, the light only you can see. By second nature, you reach out and..."
Whether this narration is referring to the Player or Kris, it's not clear.
I am not entirely sure what to make of it. What's worth noting is that it often mentions "power," and the game has this theme of "getting stronger." My memory's a little foggy but I recall it acting strange in snowgrave. I definitely think it will play into the story the way determination did.
@@Fenrick well determination wasn't researched in this universe and thus it's most likely determination. however maybe we should refer to it as something else since for trying to open a dark fountain works for anyone, berdly, noelle, kris, even from within a dark world. though maybe it requires a smaller amount of determination since in undertale we only have the save because we have the most determination.
also maybe try to find the differences for a theory mayhaps
*they. Kris is referred to only as they/them in the game.
I love these deltarune discussion/theory videos so much:D
The thing I'm looking forward to most with Deltarune is Deltarune's version of "Hopes and Dreams, Burn in Despair, and Save the World."
Toby fox did say this game will only have one ending
But what if its only YOUR ending? You will end up being the same no matter what route you choose. But others wont. YOU, the player, will still be yourself, the same, but you may have screwed up everyone else, including Kris
Or not, maybe the mercy run is the way to go and it ends up being all happy and dandy
But im sure Ralsei will turn back at some point, like, he being too obsessed with mercy to the point of going crazy. I think this has been theorized before but what if Ralsei is actually Asriel as many thought, and discover the dark worlds and used them to manipulate Kris into being a better person? We do know rhat Asriel used to cry and beg for Kris sins to be forgotten because of a videogame, maybe thats not the worst he did
I love how you can see Toby mature and change from Undertale to Deltarune. Undertale is a story where your choices are important and alter the ending and actions of the player character. Deltarune teaches you early on and constantly that your choices do not matter, a way more nihilistic and jaded view. Instead of manipulating the player character, you ACT and manipulate your teammates which is way more awful.
I am so happy that you aren't one of those channels that uses an avator of their profile picture to jump around and make poses. Thanks for just using your voice.
Yeah, I think those videos are kinda weird.
I don't think Toby would tell us that our choices don't matter and mean it so lightly. I highly suspect that, ultimately, regardless of the player's choices, the story will turn out the same way. That whatever changes actually take hold will be so irrelevant in what makes them different that it simply won't factor in any meaningful way towards the ultimate outcome. Chapter 1's outcome is basically the same no matter what you do. Chapter 2 ends with barely a hair out of place in the world of light as well, with no confirmation yet that any damage dealt to anyone was lasting in a way that will mean anything. Noelle even still comes out of her story arc in the Weird Route having gained confidence like she would have in the normal one.
Undertale is a game of choices that pile on and cause change. Deltarune is a game where your choices are an illusion.
I do not think the judgement of you was mainly intentional as well. And that's not to say that it was bad either. I think it's one of the many good added bonuses. You deserve to be called out for doing it. To think it's some play toy when it's real to them. What if it happened to us? I'd certainly call that higher force out of what it has done.
One thing that could allow for kill in another chapter is weakening " enemies"
I've seen theories about caty being the next party member and she studied the occult and weakening would fit the occult aesthetic
You could have her cast the weakening spell several times and then attack
The problem is the fact that Caty is not in the house in which the new fountain was created.
@@TJ-hg6op but the kris left the door open
I think Caty will join the party in charapter 4/5/6/7, in the church. (if there's a chapter in the church) She mentioned that Kris and her practiced occultism, so it would be a cool idea I think.
Combining two facts about Deltarune, that it is about how your choices don't matter, and that it will have one ending, makes me believe that, whatever convoluted ways the game may follow from Chapter 3 and on to cope with the immediate consequences of your choices, that, whatever you choose to be the same all-good light-hearted player that got the "happy ending" of Undertale's pacifist run, or snowgrave everyone into cold death... the general outcome will be the same, and the effort you put into being good, or bad, I mean, your feeble attempts to manipulate the game into delivering the results you expected, will be thrown back to your face.
I've got this feeling in Undertale. It was subtle and I needed help realizing it, but when I played it, with the basics of the game already in hand, I choosed to follow the pacifist path, because "oh, I want to be good, that's what I try to do in life, I want the happy ending, I can't kill Papyrus, I want the funny dialogues, etc. etc.", and, almost into the very end, after you get to know what Chara did in the past, I found myself thinking that she was a weirdo, even if not necessarily evil, but one that I didn't want to relate to, and how glad she didn't take part in the story in that route. But that's me after giving mercy, literally forgiving everyone in the game, even those who intentionally wanted to kill me, and yet, I couldn't do the same to a genuinely troubled kid. You know, the game never requires you to judge Chara, what you think of her never influences the game whatsoever, and it's possible that many players never had the trouble doing it because of that. And it proceeded to deliver the true pacifist ending I was seeking first, while I was feeling such a pretentious prick, a farse. "That's still you", when you look in the mirror, isn't it? If I had slayed goddamn Froggit or followed the genocide route I'd probably feel just as bad.
I'm betting that Deltarune is preparing to deliver that punch in a much less subtle way :P
Undertale and Deltarune really are different games. They aren't like those regular RPG games where you can spare or kill the enemies and you can play it however you'd like. Theres a right and wrong way to play it ; Pacifist and Genocide. As you said, the game reflects the fact that you're doing it wrong and makes it disturbing.
I mean, Deltarune is literally an RPG where you can spare or kill the enemies and it makes no difference. The worst you’ll get is Berdly frying an arm. You need to reeeaaally go out of your way to manipulate a child into mass murder if you want the game to give you a mildly unhappy outcome, but even then the actual consequences of our killing spree go pretty unaddressed, on account of the Cyber World disappearing once we seal the fountain.
@@emsiyes you literally said “spare” and “kill”, as well as “pacifist” and “genocide” later, using those to refer to the right and wrong way to play both games. I get your point, and what I was saying was ultimately a nitpick anyway, but you’re also blatantly lying to me and apparently expecting me to not notice.
@@mr.cup6yearsago211 I didn't look back on my comment while I was commenting. But I just said "spare" and "kill" in general to fit both games. In Undertale you can't freeze enemies like in Deltarune, but then again freezing enemies is technically killing them. Weird Route is just some type of parallel to the Genocide Route for that matter.
I don't think comparing Undertale and GTA is a fair comparison, in Undertale it's entirely your choice if you want to be a good person and NOT kill everything you see and if you do you're reminded that actions have consequences. You don't commit mass Genocide against at least 80% of a whole race and get to walk away like nothing happened. GTA on the other hand even if you try to be good you might get punished for it, stare at someone too long? They become violent, commit any small mistake in front of a cop? You get shot full of holes. It doesn't help that typically the characters you play as in GTA are usually criminals who have already done a lot of bad things before, in Undertale you're just some kid that fell down a hole.
I've seen people discuss in places that snowgrave could be the route that actually brings the best outcome. I don't believe this whatsoever, I think the explanation of toby being one to subvert our expectations being rhe primary force incredibly weak. This game was not meant to be the counterpoint to Undertale, at least in that regard, I believe this game will have a much more interesting approach that sees us with the same ending in a context that never truly acknowledges our genocidal actions beyond context.
There is one thing people have not considered in all my readings, and that is the death of Berdly maybe being inevitable. This is a very, very gruesome fact that I do not wish to be true, but wouldn't that be the real subversion? That no matter what we do, the outcome may be the same regardless of our most drastic actions?
Our choices do not matter, and Noelle may be the proxy for our choices to occur, and she is the vessel for our choices to become action. But never has she made her own choice, unleee you consider the choice to follow us one of them. Which is a very good counterpoint and one to consider.
I will never stop laughing at Burgerpants' 'Why do I always get the freaks?' line.
I just like killing monsters. Dragon Quest clearly shows that even slimes are sentient, thinking beings, but you kill hundreds easily! I don't feel any shame.
based remorseless monster slayer
Snowgrave is ultimately weird. We don't know for sure berdly is dead, since he died in the Dark world, and the fact that it is implied that he is, might not even mean anything. This is Toby Fox, mastermind of deception, so anything you could think of could happen. He goes out of his way to not directly say that berdly is dead, and uses many things such as the bead trail at the hospital as symbolism. We never know if this is Toby pointing us in the wrong direction, or if he is building something bigger. though it was NOELLE's actions that caused the differences, the ending is still the same, apart from a few hospital comments. Maybe something happens to Rudy, which is why the only differences are in the hospital.
I don't think berdley's dead, just still frozen in the dark world. he was still in the library, not a pile of dust.
He could be fallen down or maybe death works different in this game. He's definitely dead though. Snow *grave* is lethal
I think he's probably braindead at the least. If your actions result in Berdly losing his arm, he mentions his arm being numb, so what happens in the Dark World carries over (albeit in a more nonphysical way) to the Light World. He's dead or braindead.
Could be “fallen down” but even if he was still in the dark world, it ceases to exist once the fountain is sealed
That’s actually more horrifying than him just being dead. Instead of just being dead he’s alive stuck in a eternal coma, in constant agony unable to save himself.
Its also a testament how good the characters and their relationships are. Back when I bought undertale I could only do the pacifist because I loved the characters that much. Genocide is one of those things that I could not do. Even worse is that in the snow grave route, having the burden to manipulate and essentially blame Noelle for killing everybody is devastating, while also lying to her that it is all a dream until birdly doesn't wake up.
Characters and their personalities matter, and eventually curiosity gets the better of us and makes us learn the consequences of our actions. I hope whoever does snowgrave gets an ending like undertale where even after you kill everyone and go pacifist, somebody will remember.
It's one of the reasons I simply can't do it anymore. Genocide route made me feel bad but not enough to actually stop, Undyne's sheer strength is what stopped me. Snowgrave on the other hand causes a nagging guilt that, while irrational because it is just a game in the end, tells me I can't continue down that line even if there really are no consequences, ESPECIALLY if there are no consequences.
But... I hope so too. I hope even after leaving my snowgrave save dormant, someone holds me to it in some way.
8:57 actually its killing undyne because sans is easy.
No seriously I aborted my first genocide run because undying was too hard. I'm probably just bad at the green soul game mode though.
I'm glad I watched loki, because this gave me an idea or a realization as to how this game could end.
Deltarune has the story of the roaring. A major apocalypse event. We see Kris making more fountains, an action which we know would trigger such an apocalypse event. If this were to happen, your actions wouldn't matter in the long run. Because no matter what, the result will be that everyone ends up dying and suffering. Either that, or when it happens, the fun gang could end up saving everyone anyways in the end to bring the story to a resolution. No matter what, there is only one ending.
I like to think that in the end, the ending is going to be exactly the same leaving you confused and shoving in your face the fact that all the atrocities you've commited have been for nothing
This comment section was really interesting, but I saw a comment that made me think back to the end of a genocide run. When Chara says the famous "since when were you the one in control?" maybe it means that we as the player were never in control, but Chara allowed us to do what they deemed as correct based on their morals in the route?
Idk, just something to think about
Great video!
Thanks, firecat.
6:14 I didn't expect to hear THIS reference! 😂
i say its kinda just
in undertale, we play as frisk (a fallen human)
but in deltarune we are playing as not kris, but someone possessing kris (the Undertale alternative is chara)
and just like chara, we cannot fully control the body (frisk/kris)
however, this can mean we can flex OUR choices into kris's
since in deltarune
technically, kris doesnt have a choice
when in undertale, frisk was full of choices to change the game
kris listens to us weather we are right or wrong
since in undertale, we are frisk we decide the choice
I accidentally started doing a genocide run when I played Undertale the first time because I went in fully blind
lol
ok but did you stop like when papyrus is concerned and you were like "ohh there's a spare button"
or did you realize it but decide to not care
I think the best way Toby punishes players for choosing violence is by making the process tedious and unfun. From grinding out every last encounter in Undertale to backtracking through Deltarune and skipping over all the silly setpieces, culminating in a fountain-sealing cutscene without that awesome fanfare. It's designed to be unsatisfying, and Deltarune surpasses Undertale in that regard for not giving the player any unique challenges for the path they took. Instead of a super-punishing battle like Undyne or Sans, you just fight a slight variation on the bonus boss.
I fought Spamton NEO in both the pacifist route and the Snowgrave route and I gotta say if you don't think he's super punishing you haven't fought him yourself. He was brutal, I spent like three hours trying to beat him. XD I loved how it felt though, super rewarding when I finally beat him even if it felt horrible from a character perspective.
@@Caroline15390 Yeah, he's tough, but he's not unique to the Snowgrave route, aside from Kris fighting alone for the most part.
My point is that he doesn't have quite the same incentive for challenge seekers that Undyne and Sans provided.
@@SparkpadArt Yeah that's true, he isn't exclusive. You do have to go out of your way to fight him in both routes though, so it's not like he's mandatory for any of them.
I keep thinking about the time Toby mentioned how Deltarune was a little too close in similarities to “another game being released”. That game being OMORI - and how he felt ppl wont be able to help but see similarities.
It was very vague of what he meant by that, and he didn’t mention OMORI *by name* ( but it was pretty clear to make those connections, with his close support of OMORI, with the timing of the games release when he made those tweets and when considering the top-layer plot for OMORI’s protagonist )
I almost always wonder if Snow Grave will be a route we will have to take, to possibly trigger events for more details in later chapters, that will tie to the ending in a big way.
It’s the only connection i can make with OMORI’S plot aside from the obvious *Dream World, dream world avatar, and a protag’ with questionable shut-in qualities*
I believe "your choices dont matter." Is going to be subverted meant to proven wrong, like how in undertale "Kill or be killed." Where you can be ultimately prove flowey wrong
An interesting concept to consider about Deltarune's chapter structure is specifically how the secret bosses have a common theme with two other notable characters- Kris, and YOU, the player. Kris can easily be seen as a sort of "discarded" loner kid who desires more control over the issues in their life, and the player is told right from the start of the game that they don't have choices in this world, and the vessel you make is discarded. Both Kris AND the player have the perfect setup to function as an in-universe secret boss, and I believe this is where the game routes are leading.
See, Kris is using the soul as a means of changing their own life. Every dark fountain that has been made has created an adventure that was solely responsible for improving the quality of Kris' life, turning Susie from a bully to a friend, and getting Berdly to be less of a jerk. It even helped Noelle with finding the strength to stand up to her mom, which will likely come up in the future. But Kris isn't *evil,* so they obviously wouldn't KNOWINGLY open a dark fountain just to improve these aspects of their life if it meant the end of ALL lives, which is where the soul- the one thing capable of SEALING the fountains- comes into the picture.
But, in the much the same way that Kris is using the soul the control THEIR fate, WE are using Kris' body to attempt to change the story as well. The big thread with the secret bosses is that they often went mad and even violent, so the Weird Route is essentially our "secret boss" arc, where we actively do whatever it takes to change fate, even if it means in the end that we kill and torment whoever gets in our way. But if you continue down this path, it is quite likely that Kris will remove the soul, casting you into the discarded vessel, making YOU the final secret boss.
Point is, being too determined to change a fate you are not meant to change can lead to you discarding your morals for the sake of an outcome always out of reach. It's the difference between having the ability to DETERMINE your fate, and having determination TO change your fate, but no ability to do so. You and Kris are symbiotic and must come to that conclusion together.
I think that there are going to be some different endings for DELTARUNE simply because of the addition of the shadow crystals. What happens if you get all of them? What happens if you don’t?
I really pushed myself to watch this video, and I'm really liking it so far, but the lisp is making it quite difficult, ngl. I'm sorry. Again, the video is really good, and the points you're making are well constructed.
Awesome video :3
Thank ya.
I watch people play games that i cant find and play myself, or that ive already played and want to play again but i need to convince myself the game has replay value.
Deltarune discussion video aaaa thank youuu
You're welcome!
Just book marking some important stuff
12:17
12:37
Cool video!
Thanks.
one thing folks dont point out alot is how humor can actually work as an effective pathway to horror
Yeah of course that matter, we killed our falco clone boi
What a great vid
Thank you.
In a way Undertale is the exact opposite of Deltarune.
In Undertale we are given a choice,a choice that will change the world around us even though we are not above of the consequences while in Deltarune we are given a choice but our choice doesn't matter,the outcome will always be the same,it doesn't matter if we kill,it doesn't matter if we spare,our choices don't matter and we are above the consequences of what we do.
However in the genocide ending in Undertale we are given a choice by Chara to give up and whatever we choose the outcome will always be the same, maybe in Deltarune we will be given a choice at the end that could change the world around us.
Well there are a ton of armor items certain characters will refuse to wear
Hmmm ah yes Nuance in Roy games
before starting genocide : 😢😢im gonna have to kill everyone
midway through genocide : FINALLY KILLED UNDYNE LETS GO
I'm literally never doing snowgrave bro
The ThornRing conspicuously halts her HP drain at 55. Now what is the Roman numeral for that?
If that's intentional, that's a pretty good observation.
@@Fenrick indeed it is. Think about it: when you "become stronger" in an RPG, what increases after defeating enough enemies?
@@NightSprinter my guy, we get it. It’s clever, but it’s not that clever.
@@mr.cup6yearsago211 never said anything about it being clever, just pointing out the small detail for those who might not have noticed it.
@@NightSprinter sorry, I was definitely being a bit more antagonistic than I should’ve been. All I’m saying is that it would be much easier to just explain the easter egg instead of implying its existence and saying nothing more, and doing the latter read to me like you were trying to look smart and coy. It was a poor first impression, is what I’m saying, but I also shouldn’t have been so quick to judge. You seem nice, goodbye.
I feel like the Player will Ditch Kris and put their Soul into ralsei or Noelle in the weird route in Chapters 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7.
Unlike In undertale. I fully believe snowgrave will lead us to the true ending of the game. An ending where against expectations everyone is alive and happy. Everyone except us the player.
See the game seems to be hinting at us that in order to make everyone happy we must be the villain
5:50 you did not make that pun, i refuse to believe it
5:52 “when the dust has settled” oh my god I didn’t expect that, was it intentional? Lol
100% was lel. glad you caught it
I feel like I’m the first person to find an Easter egg LOL, it was a bit surprising to hear while in the middle of cleaning
This may be a little hyperbolic but man, I think this is the only nuanced take I've EVER heard on Undertale's Genocide route
I appreciate that a lot, thank ya.
It is the good ending
So if i am not willing to do the genocide run and dont do it within my copy of the game but watch another person play through th genocide route ... what kind of god am i?
The ch 3 genocide route will bw different i think
we were robbed of mettaton neo's fight
I think the point of the Mettaton NEO "fight" was to show that we've grinded so much in the No Mercy Route that we can not only one shot random enemies but also one shot a boss.
I love your voice
Thank ya
Man the cops would be strong
9:50 lmao
I never noticed but when Alphys says “I hate you” she looks right at the viewer. Wack.
Why snow grave lives matters
is the last place you can abort a genocide route in Undertale without resetting at mettaton?
I agree with your video, but I personally don'tknow what we have to think about, like the games treats us like a scumbag because if it didn't it just wouldn't be as immersive since you remember "oh it's just a game it's okay!!!", while what we got gives us an more interesting experience of making us feel like we where scumbags for absolutely nothing. But I have no idea what am I supposed to take from this, I took things from it but I don't think it's what you mean but tell me so I know if I took it or not. I also don't exactly know what you mean by saying toby treid to make a point on the geno route
I don't think it is his intent to make people feel bad, just to make them think about it.
Toby was trying to make a statement about how grinding for exp in a game like final fantasy is ultimately empty by making the genocide route take a long time running around as the monster's numbers start to dwindle.
8:29 I'm confused.
So, it's fine for the game to take itself seriously when holding the player accountable for any and all choices, but it's up the players to not misinterpret the narrative's intentions by taking the narrative too seriously?
That seems a bit strange... and lopsided.
You make a good point. Maybe I could have articulated that better. Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm probably biased.
Thaaaaaaaaats politics!
but your choices dont matter
So they say...
9:25
6:15 That assumes that everyone who played Mass Effect inevitably played the games twice for Paragon and Renegade out of 'morbid curiosity', which Undertale's narrative was more than happy to rub in the audience's face, over and over and over until any subtlety was lost to memetic mutation.
Never mind the fact that some gamers aren't actually obsessed with one-hundred percent completion and are content with doing a single Paragon run, or some other analogue that can be found in other games.
Undertale isn't subtle, but I do still think it's clever. Sometimes at least. I still think it's an interesting thing for a game to reflect on. I think there's often an expectation among the more hardcore fans of games that present those kinds of options for you to do both, as you haven't seen everything the game has to offer. Why not make a game exploring that kind of thing? Certainly wasn't perfect. But I respect the effort.
What is the point of doing good if it is the only option. You can do good or you can wait at the starting line. Wow. There is none. You are not doing good, you are not saving anyone. You are just following the already written story to its only end.
It is the evil you could commit, but don't, that makes you who you are. It is the good that you could commit, but chose not to. It is called a decision, and it tells you stuff about yourself.
Well said.
i hope he doesn't do the whole one ending thing i like the idea of multiple endings more than just having one
Hey.
Hello
Howdy.
:D
It is very strange to me that everyone says that chara is the villain of the genocide run and he/she is controlling frisk, Even if i dont know any evidence at all and it seems clear to me that the player is the villain. Its also strange how people just assume things about both chara and frisk, like gender.
:)