At 28, I did community college for two years, did very well, get a scholarship to a four-year university. Since I had already been coding professionally for 10 years, I chose Electrical Engineering instead of CS. I managed to complete the degree while working full time, and the (partial, but generous) scholarship kept my total cost to about $20k at a well-known and respected private university. I established relationships with my professors that led to a master's degree that was 100% covered by research grants. My path certainly isn't for everyone, but, in my case, it was totally worth it. Now that I'm middle-aged, the degrees have opened up a lot of opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise have had. The extra math in EE vs CS has really come in handy.
What I don't like about any path is that it requires someone giving you something. In your instance you were able to impress your professors which gained you a grant. I wish there were foolproof ways for people to survive. I am not a fan of a person only being able to survive by the hands of others. I am not saying there is anything wrong with connection, but survival shouldn't be dependent on it.
It may be possible to learn the skills you need without a degree, but it is going to be a hell of a lot harder to convince employers that. Places may say you don't need a degree, but it is a recognised standard that everyone understands. It is also pretty much required if you ever want to work abroad. The other advantages of higher education are the access to staff and peers it provides - it is much harder doing it on your own without that support network. University friends also tend to be people you keep in touch with for life - as you self selected the same interests. The main thing it gives you is time to learn these skills - sure you can take a sabbatical, but it is totally up to you to fund and motivate yourself. Complete self study may be (debatably) monetarily cheaper, but in many ways it is the harder option - that won't necessarily be appreciated by employers.
While you have points, what you are saying misses the overall point. It is not just self-studying code. He also is saying embark on legitmate projects, work on soft skills (communicating), apply to (try over and over) at a bunch of different places... these are the same things you do in college. Why not do them for less than the cost of tution, some of the distractions that are not helpful, and years of student loan debt. That said, I went to university in the 80s like many of my friends (who did not use their degrees), then ended up in IT despite not taking a single class in engineering. I got in to IT through my interest and hours I put in at home, my personality, and circumstance. University is for Higher Learning--analysis, experimentation, advancing the science. This is different than Application: the use and refining the use of an area. Conversely, my son was not interested in college, but I did start teaching him coding in elementary school (there are so many great learning programs for children) and he has done a ton of projects on his own and with groups. He is making more than I did at his age. There are a lot more factors at play than just a college degree.
Not really. So many people in computer science fields don’t have degrees and were self-taught. Don’t mistaken having the skills and talent with needing a degree. Even some universities require students to study/learn by themselves. Work also requires you to learn by yourself on the job sometimes. A lot of people graduate from college and don’t use the material they learned. So if you don’t understand how to pick up the subject after 4 years of college or even after a couple of classes, the field probably isn’t for you.
Nonsense. Having certifications is better than a degree. As a guy who hires, I pay no attention to CS degrees. Most are worthless. Too many losers cheat and copy homework. I want to see MSFT certifications (preferably) and will give the candidate a project to do and submit in 1 week. If I like the work, I make an offer. If I don't, trash .. next.
While getting a CS or engineering degree doesn't guarantee you a job, a degree from a well-known university will open more doors for you than a bootcamp or being self-taught. There is, for sure, a difference between you will learn in school vs what you do on the job. However, I think it's definitely worth thinking about survivorship bias. The people who are self-taught or did bootcamps and are successful are the ones you'll see posting on the internet, you rarely see anyone posting who didn't find success - just something to think about. Overall, interesting points!
Also forgot to mention the fact that bootcamps and such won't really close a 4 year gap from a degree, I have worked with a lot people who were on the field, most being from college, and the self taughts needed a lot more time to get up to pace and a lot more problems while adapting
@@ilovetech8341 I agree once you get the job, but the problem is getting the first job. Most well-known universities have really good campus recruiting to help new grads get jobs - career fairs, networking events, company visits, on-campus interviews, hackathons, etc., that you don't get if you don't go to a good school. Otherwise, you're stuck applying online randomly where your resume is in a pile with another 1000 people
This is not good advice Travis. While a degree isn't 100% necessary, it certainly opens up doors compared to not having the degree. Another factor is that a degree at an institution provides you both the resources AND the incentive to learn the skill of programming. The external pressures to do well in a program that you or your parents are paying for FORCES you to learn. You have no excuses. Depending on the institution, it is arguably the best environment to learn this skill.
The problem is that in many cases the student nor their parent are paying for it. It is instead paid for with an outrageous loan with an outrageous interest rate that keeps people in an endless grind throughout their prime working years. If a loan isn’t needed then that would probably be one of the two exceptions I mentioned at the start of the video and by all means go for it. It does help.
@@TravisMedia You know what? That's a completely fair point. I didn't watch the video through and through and dived straight to the comments without investigating further. I apologize for that and going forward I won't do that again.
Online accelerates universities, notably WGU, is in my opinion the best budget option for a degree. I got my Cloud Computing bach in 2 semesters and only 9k debt that I already paid off, and my friend got his CS degree in 4. We're both making six figures so it speaks for itself.
Hey, I am planning to enroll in the cloud computing degree this Janurary at WGU. Can you tell me how you landed your first job? I have no IT experience and I know that Cloud Computing is not entry level.
I’m with you on this. My son dropped out of his mechanical engineering degree program at a major university in June and switched to WGU to get a degree in cyber security. He’s on track to complete it within two six month cycles. And their computer science bachelor’s degree program is now accredited by ABET, which is the best accreditation there is in the engineering world.
@@vitalyl1327😂 cyber degrees are just as worthless. If someone applies to a cloud job with a CS degree and they're compared to someone with a "cloud" degree. I can imagine that the CS degree will be the winner
Getting a degree in Computer Science, Engineering or IT related fields is definitely NOT A BAD decision. Besides, a CS degree is not equivalent to knowing programing.
@@ImetalhAh, gotta. No, it's the science of computers. You study the history of computers, lots of maths, hardware, software, databases, algorithms, computer vision, data structures, programming languages, operating systems, circuits, software engineering, and a bunch other stuff. It is a very good degree for undergraduate. You can go deeper in any field after that. From databases to software engineering, machine learning, computer/electrical/mechanical/electronics engineering and so many other fields. I am guessing these are the reasons compagnies kind of like the CS degrees sometimes. Though it has a heavy programming section, you also study lots of other related topics that helps you make better programming decisions. At least that is my take on it.
@@randomfellow1483 You practically learn DS and Algos when learning a programming language anyways, but its good to understand the why, what, when, when and where to use them. So in a way yes you will need to learn them.
Are you serious man!! Computer science is not about learning code that would makes it worthless as you mentioned but it is about solving problem with math the way computers work. Computer science prepares you to write good programs and analyse it. "It is a science not just coding". And by the it's hardly to get a job with no degree because all the HR systems automatically checks if you meet the requirements or not and all companies requring a bachelor degree as a minimum qualification. Also with the AI in hand so it's hard to get a job even as a freelance.
It depends on where you live. Online people are saying don’t go to college but look at most job searches & they want people with a degree. If you work for yourself you don’t need a degree but then you need capital to start a business. And success doesn’t happen overnight.
Any recruiter worth their salt will say "or equivalent experience" ontop of also still looking in a degree holders experience. Experience trumps degree everytime. 4 years worth, and its a landslide!
success doesnt happen overnight and every night you have to find a way to put food in your stomach, so essentially you would have to have enough money to take more risks.
I agree - this information is not applicable to the 2024 market. The market is tight now, and for the limited companies that are interested in entry level developers, they want sheepskins and internships. I know of folks with or in process of getting CS degrees from a top 5 CS program which enjoys heavy recruitment cycle partnerships with fortune 500 companies, and those students are finding the market very competitive. Internships are the current requirement method for entry level devs at present.
Agree with a lot of what you're saying but this was my experience... I graduated college with a non-CS engineering degree but quickly decided I'd made a mistake and would rather be a Software Developer. ...so, I jumped ship, "learned to code" (although I already knew a lot) and luckily found a company to give me an opportunity. I absolutely considered myself self-taught at that point and I was very successful for the first few years. ...but after a while I realized I just seemed to be missing some things that really-good CS grads knew. So, I went back to school for a Masters. Fortunately, by that point, I could MAKE MY EMPLOYER PAY FOR IT. Anyway, I discovered the things I was missing were basically the boring, but important, crap nobody wants to learn on their own without being forced to. Are you really gonna take the time to learn the difference between an O(n log n) algorithm and an 0(n^2) algorithm on your own? Probably not. But knowing that stuff takes you to the next level....if that's what you're after.
@bjiggs01 Yea but you had a degree. There are a huge number of people that keep screaming that you can work as a software engineer without degree. But they are wrong!!! You had a degree, understanduble that your degree was not CS related. But you had a degree!!! Somebody who just has a highschool diploma and teachings himself how to code has no chance. Put your ass in the HR lady shoes, HR lady doesn give a shit about skill, she wants accreditations!!!!
I started my data science degree 4 weeks ago after self learning to code by myself for 14 months. Im so happy i did, im only in my 4th week at university and we're already discussing things like databases and sql, before i decided to go to university i heard negative thing's like self learning is better (which it may be i agree) they dont teach you relevant things etc, i can confirm that is a lie. Yes i self taught myself to code in python and that was a great ultimate boost to start uni, ive basically started my first class as one of the top students (only after 4 weeks) so i think a mix of the 2 is vital, im 37 and plan on being a junior data scientist within a year. Just do it guys, save stress of being rejected just because u dont have a degree. Plus i only paid £20,000 for my 3 year data science degree here in London and the government paid for it via the student finance loan. University is very structured allowing you to feel your doing each step perfectly, but im also doing a data science bootcamp alongside it so ill always be ahead of whatever university throw at me. Be smart 🤓
@@exist140 how am I supposed to take you seriously if you don't even do the basic modicum of research to know that a CS degree is not 200k... BSc would have costed me 32k if I were paying out of pocket, except I had scholarships so I actually ended up getting paid to go to school...
"Telling people not to accrue debt in the worst economy in decades is such bad advice" Does it make sense when you say it out loud CS isn't even a software engineering degree. It's general, and basic. Find any university and read over the courses. Learn what you need to get the job you want. Especially in this economy. If you don't know what you want to do, go to college. We may end up in the same position, but I'll have more money than you.
TBH go to community college first, college allows you to network and meet peers and socialize while learning, also having a degree is better than not having one, and it generally takes 4 years which is really not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things. I am going to a community college for the basics for CS and it is really not that expensive compared to going to a well known 4 year university that most people go to for the name of it, also I know plenty of people that regret not going to college because it is a good place to make friends and meet people on similar journeys, tbh studying on my own SUCKED because the only communities are primarily online and discord which isnt that much fun tbh
@@MrValsung You can do the basics for college and intro to programming courses so your still progressing and learning while having the ability to network and get into internships
The only problem with degree, even an AA from a community college, is they’ll stuff you with lots of maths. At my JC, you’ll be looking at all the calculus classes, linear algebra, and differential equations.
@@halea41 I agree that it is a lot of math and if you want to be a web developer than college may not be necessary, but it you want to actually be a software engineer and create algos and fully understand things like cryptography than math is necessary, I also think knowing higher level concepts and math is good especially since web development is something that can be automated to a point especially in the future
Look into scholarships. I graduated with an A.S. and B.S. in CS with only $2k out of pocket TOTAL. Idk where you are going to college but if you're in the US then see if your Community College has Phi Theta Kappa, its a CC honor society and joining them got me an academic scholarship when I transferred to a local University that paid half my tuition....and I only needed a 3.2 to qualify, which shouldn't be a problem. Also, some local Universities will have scholarships for students who transfer after earning an A.S. at a local CC. I had several friends take out student loans when they could have done the same thing but they never researched it.
This is bad bad advice! I was a guy with a highschool diploma, I resigned my job and self taught myself how to code for 1 year. I put in over 3000 hours... I applied at hundreds of jobs... I went to Tech events in my large city (almost 10 milion people) Still nothing. Yeah I know there are people who brag that they got a job without a CS degree, but those jokers don't mention that they still had a degree in a unrelated field!!
I have a little over 3 years professional experience as a self-taught mobile dev and have been stuck on whether or not I should get a degree. Reason being, I've only worked for start-ups and I have a goal of working for a Fortune 500, but I feel my resume gets filtered out or something without that Comp Sci BA. But you are right, it's not worth going into so much debt, I think I do need to get better at networking.
Look into community colleges, there are decent scholarships for students who earn an associates then transfer to a local University. I had several friends having to take out loans for school when they could have gotten the same scholarships I did but they never researched it.
Traditionally, going from Start-ups to Fortune 500s is challenging, but it's doable. It appears that you feel like you're being overlooked because you don't have the Com Sci BA. In that case, you may want to consider GT's Masters in Com Sci. (assuming you already have a degree from a 4-year institution), But GT's MA in Com Sci is insanely cheap (less than 7k for the entire program). You'll get to learn from some highly respected Computer Scientists. I had to take some prep courses before entering the program due to my transition into Com Sci, but your path may be different because you already have programming experience.
Developers with years of experience talking about going back to school are the weirdest to me. People go to college for one reason- to get a job. You made it. 4 years of additional work experience > a Bachelors. You're also loosing out on salary and salary growth for 4 years. Climb the ladder by upgrading your job and youll get there.
@@JegErN0rsk Senior Software Engineer at a Big 4 firm and I disagree. I'm currently working on a CS degree simply because I can't get any more promotions (not raises, promotions) without one. Once you reach a certain level you definitely need a degree if you want a better position. That being said, I definitely would not quit working to go to school.
@@ordohereticus Getting a degree on the side is a great decision. If a university allows me, I will do the same once I get a couple of years of experience. Quitting your job to go to school, however, makes no sense. We agree. Congrats by the way. I am surprised to hear. I know plenty of self taught in the highest of positions
What's never presented is what happens as you become older and into middle-age. You lose a job and try to replace it with a similar income but without a degree. You're at the mercy of potential employers. Also, just because someone majors in CS doesn't mean they will automatically code. I have a BSCS and I've worked in Project / Program Management for many years. I haven't coded anything since my job out of college back in '94. It's very difficult to segue into other arenas that are not directly technical such as management without a degree. Now, there are some folks that are outliers and can do this, but for most, it's just not the case. Even if it's not CS, think about down the line. Multiple bootcamps are not going to hold the weight when someone says that you interviewed well, but I don't see a degree on your resume'.....
>> Teach yourself to code and be amazing developer Uhm, yeah, no. As per my experience (15 years in the industry) - self-taught developer who is also amazing is exception, not the rule. Most self-taught developers are not very good on average and don't make nearly as much as people with CS background
Very few of software jobs are in tech companies. Most of the remaining employers do not really know how to differentiate between good and bad engineers. For them the degree is still a convenient filter.
THAT'S AN OPINION... now a FACT: the job posters and hiring managers stuff requirements for master's degree or bachelor's degree willy-nilly as much as recruiters using automated resume parsers for keywords. The job market is tight enough that master's and bachelor's holders with plenty of experience can't land a position, advocating to skip the degree is foolhardy.
100% worth getting a cs degree. You aren’t going to be screwed if you don’t have one, but in the grand scheme of things if you want a high paying job and or want an easy growth path. That BA in CS will be a great aid. Then add certifications etc? You will literally look top tier. You can argue you’ll have debt lol, but ok getting a $70k job for years before upgrading vs even from my university $100k out the door and $200k+ after 10 years is easily worth it in my book even my dad is an example. You don’t NEED a degree to get a job, but you’d be foolish if you can’t see the extra doors it opens and the fact that it’ll always be easy to hire you in worst case scenarios vs a self taught person.
Your chances of landing a job often depend on a successful interview and a standout portfolio that demonstrates your skills. I taught myself and prepared for interviews by tackling challenge questions. To break into the field, I offered to work for free initially to prove my abilities, and it paid off when the company hired me at a starting salary of $70,000 per year. After the probation period, they increased my pay to $85,000. A good strategy to get noticed is reaching out directly to the hiring manager instead of just applying online.
@@DK5TY that is super cool it worked out for you! That is actually the same strategy I’ll be using too whether I graduate or not. If I can’t do it then I’ll become self taught (just not fond of having to do discrete math and calc 2. I’d be damned if that’s what stopped me lol). From there offer companies that I’ll work for free to prove my worthwhile and go from there. Talking to hiring managers is a great idea! Enjoy your job and good luck!
@@robyee3325 it’s a bit weird, but I think I will have a bs in CS. I go to UofM and they do things a BIT different so we have two versions. One is LSA CS (literature, science, and arts. Essentially you need to take humanities, science, higher level writing, and learn a language) while the other is CSE (E being engineering, which requires calc 3 and 4-5 physics courses). I’m in LSA CS so I’m not EXACTLY sure what I would get, but LSA does offer a BS degree so I’d imagine I’d get a BS majoring in CS. I just don’t know 100% because most universities don’t offer two options. I do know LSA CS and CSE graduates there is no difference in who will get hired there have been studies on it so I’m not too worried! I’m just worried about getting through these difficult courses haha
It all depends on what you want a CS degree for. If you just want a job "coding" because it pays well, then no, don't go through a CS degree. Couple of bootcamps in your target field (nowadays web development or mobile development) and you are set. Of course you need to build a network to find a job but that will come with your bootcamp experience. If you want to be more competent to be able to expand your possibilities and work in more specialized fields, like operating systems, embedded software, databases, AI, etc., or want to do research, then a CS degree is kind of a must have. Travis has other video describing how it took him more work to understand certain things because he did not know certain concepts that are taught in CS, but not in bootcamps. Self-taught developers, or self-taught anything, just don't know what they don't know, and it may come back to bite them, not fatally, but sometimes painfully. Personally, some of the best developers I know don't have formal training (one is a former anthropologist!) but are passionate about coding and learning, and some CS graduates make me doubt their degree is authentic. In the end it all goes down to how passionate are you about developing software and learning.
No one is going to look through 1,000 resumes. The first filter we use in hiring and getting it down to about 50 resumes is a CS degree. It's not personal it's just practical and save time.
I really don't think it takes 1 year. It takes 2-3 years of practice 40+ hours a week to get a job. I spent 3 years an average of 10 hours a day 6 days a week self teaching before I felt comfortable enough to start interviewing.
@@Carlospenamusic1 I interviewed with 5 companies. I made it to the final interview for some of them. The 5th company hired me and I have been working there for 2 years. It was a much easier getting a job at a giant company than a startup because startups are picky. Due to my long efforts in self teaching, I am the best developer on my team and anyone that wrote code for the projects before me.
I am staying in college since my financial aid is completely able to cover my college costs. I also would like to have a guided path towards being knowledgeable in computer science. I am self teaching myself other things like Blender and Unreal since my dream job would be an animator or game developer. If those things do not work out, I would have a computer science degree to fall back on.
You definitely have less options without cs degree since some jobs just put it as general requirement Otherwise it’s same as all. If you good and you know what you doing and can show/prove it , you will be good
I've literally seen job postings say "NO BOOT CAMPS". Yeah, I'm burning money on a Data Science/AI degree. But it's technically a CS degree as far as employers are concerned. Good thing I'm doing a startup.
Before I even get 30 seconds in my comment has to be that I'm almost certain you will not bring up the fact that OVER 90% of the CS workforce have a BS degree at the least. So before I watch anymore of this or anyone else watches this just remember folks the most surefire way to get into tech is to get that CS degree because again: OVER 90% of the CS workforce has a BS degree at the least!!!!!
People who say that getting a cs degree makes you rich quotes the people from 10 years ago working for 2 hours a day to get 100k a year. supply is going to rise so this is unrealistic
I enrolled in the Air National Guard/Air Force program which provided me access to the GI Bill, funding my college tuition. Through this program, I now have lifelong benefits including VA home loans, free medical treatment at VA hospitals, $5 prescription drugs, free eye glasses every 12 months, and many more benefits. The initial training requirement was manageable - 8 weeks of basic training and about 4 months of technical school. After that, the only obligations are working one weekend per month and two weeks per year. The Air Force, Air National Guard, and Space Force offer the most valuable job experience for transitioning into the civilian workforce later. The skills and training in these branches provide excellent alignment with in-demand jobs outside the military. Focusing your military service in one of those areas will set you up well for a smooth shift into related civilian careers.
Terrible advice. The network you get from self-taught and bootcamps are non-existent. There's no reason for people to want to associate with you. You go to a university for the credential, and the pipeline it leads you to have where companies will even CONSIDER you for an internship. With how difficult the market is, for people who aren't extremely talented, bootcamps and self-taught are non-options. if you believe you have the aptitude for it, and you are going to a top university whose alums end up going to top companies, it is the best way for you to get onto the potentially best career path in the world. There is always the chance it won't work out like the video poster said. But if you believe you have the aptitude and the financial incentives are there... go for it.
bro why do people say a degree is 216k public state schools are like 15-18k a year but i think colleges biggest downfall is the useless classes you have to take you already took in highschool such as humanities and english etc
Western Governor’s University. $4,200 per six month term. ABET accredited for their computer science major, which is the best there is in accreditation for engineering fields. At WGU you go at your own pace. I don’t know anyone doing their programs that doesn’t complete at least two traditional semesters per six month period and the vast majority complete three. That means for about $13,000 in eighteen months of year-round study you can have both the skills and an accredited degree. I think it’s great.
Ideally, universities should be for getting an education... not for getting job training. People treat higher education as the next stepping stone to their desired career when really it should be an enriching experience that builds your understanding of the world. I understand this is about practical career decision-making, but education is so much more than learning about how to perform a task... it's learning about what challenges the world faces and how your skills can address those challenges. The fact that people in the United States can't value education beyond what it can earn them in dollars is pretty much why democracy is crumbling around us. People don't understand history, culture, art, music, or anything else that makes us human because they are ONLY focused on accumulating wealth and consuming shit they don't need.
@@TravisMedia it's not really much. you're not forced to go to a private university. you can go to a respected public university and there many and save 5x
Bootcamps don’t teach real programming. They teach high level languages or frameworks, but you really don’t know how computers work. Bootcamps just train people to translate business requirements into code. But calling it code is generous. It’s like being a mechanic instead of an engineer-big difference. To do it right you need to learn the underlying theory, assembly language, C, C++, then the higher level languages which are written in C.
Translating business requirements into code has given millions great salaries in a fraction of the time and cost/debt. A winning advancement. By the way none of these people would care to be called “engineers”
Haha people trashing a comp sci degree have a big problem, it takes 3 to 4yrs to Get a decent tech job..for self taught. it takes 4yrs to complete a degree,nowadays CS graduates finish uni with great portfolios too as they know importance of side projects, goodluck with your bootcamp or self taught journey in 2023 and beyond. Travis here got into tech probably when knowing basic JavaScript or comptia aplus was hot cake, he's old and experienced,its called the curse Of Knowledge.
I am getting my computer science degree, and I say it really varies person to person and their is no one size fits all solution for everyone. I got first 2 years free at community college and transfered to a state college with an easy to get scholarship that took off half the tuition. I never even stepped foot in debt. It is a good idea, just don't be dumb and work hard.
Thank you for this - I’ve been struggling with what I should do 1. Because I work full time and my current job requires a lot of time so I am able to keep a roof over my head and all other responsibilities I have to give attention to. I’m starting with khan academy and code academy to get my feet wet (because I’m a newbie) and find it extremely difficult to make time to go to school. I’m at a loss because 50% of people say it’s better to acquire a cs degree and the other 50% say I don’t need it just put it the work to self teach and give yourself time etc etc .. I’ll accept that it may take me longer or I’d have to prove myself more without a cs degree but I just want to make sure it’s not mandatory if I don’t. I find degrees extremely valuable and I look up to those who do have a cs degree however If I’m being true to myself and this is my own individual circumstance . I don’t find it feasible. Mostly for sanity reasons and not wanting so much debt. I’m not trying to land a cs job immediately right after I learn one language and call myself a software engineer. I understand it’ll require time and knowledge but I guess my question is with that understanding I just want to make sure that in the future I’ll be able to get a good career out of it lol
Please please please enroll in near by in-state university and take classes slowly. Many of my CS degree classes were offered late in the day to accommodate for those who had work or other classes. Self learning is not guaranteed. With a CS degree you're bound to at least make your foot through the door.
University of central Florida charges 6k per year tuition, so I'm tempted to go because teaching myself hasn't turned out well. This mightve been true for some extremely motivated people in the past, but there's too much competition now
While I agree that college is mostly a scam, it's how the game is played. Remember when Meta first did layoffs when Open AI released ChatGPT? They culled the workforce of remote and self taught devs. Most people who were bootcampers who had industry experience were laid off for no reason other than they didn't have degrees. Also, I don't think college needs to be that expensive. Especially if you go in-state. My entire in-state university degree cost me a little over 6-7K. I come from a middle class background so I didn't quality for need based aid either. Most states give out merit-based scholarships to students who keep a B average GPA. That paid for 80% of my tuition. You never really pay the sticker price of most colleges. I also applied for random scholarships which I happened to get. Keep in mind my summers were also spend at internships, so I got experience and made some extra money too. My highest paying internship was at around $40 an hr for 12 weeks.
Im starting college next year and luckily I will have my tuition entirely paid for by scholarships and theres a high chance i will receive federal aid for housing and other costs due to my financial situation. It pays to excel in high school and my advice to others is if you plan to pursue the degree, opt for a public state school because they are far cheaper and will usually give you just as good of an education from what ive heard/seen
If you live in a country where the education is really expensive and you want to become a porgrammer / software engineer, sure i agree, if you manage to go the self taught route that's fine and great. But computer science is not just programming, it's also, or even more so, fundametals like maths and theoretical computer science that teach you to think differently and that are needed in many fields to actually do anything useful. As a pure programmer you may not need any of them a lot, but for many other jobs and tasks in the field you absolutely do. And Academic knowledge and research is not just about producing good code monkeys. Gaining a deeper Knowlege of things is both rewarding in itself and of value to society. The problem here is that Uni is to expensive for many, not that it's a bad system. But it does not produce programmers, but computer scientists.
I did this. I have an AS degree in Science. I got a Software Engineer Apprenticeship at IBM. 2+ years later I'm being laid off. I'm being rejected from every job, completely ghosted. I wish I had the confidence to apply during the pandemic I would be a Senior level dev by now and much harder to lay off. Now I won't be employed probably for 2 more years and will need to start my career over.
Thank you for sharing these insights. Im 40 and been wanting to go for a career change into tech from construction. College is the natural path to go. This helps give some perspective.
1st, there's something to be said for the networking opportunities that attending a university will get you. Yeah you can learn all you want on your own, but it doesn't how much you learn if you don't have any connections. 2nd, It's not that easy to stay that motivated and pick out things you don't know to teach yourself. You don't know what you don't know, so how can you expect to accurately find information that you don't even know exists? University exposes you to a lot of things that you wouldn't find otherwise. The social and networking aspects of a degree are what makes the degree valuable, not just the skills you might learn by obtaining it.
I think they do a good job at it. The frameworks and skills in this industry change and update so rapidly it’s hard to continually monitor all the changes. In fact I feel like by the time you finish making an entire course it will have already felt outdated 😂
College is still worth it for me. I know it may not help me get a job but the education was valuable. I may never use it and I may end up doing something else entirely. I don't know. Don't care. Just grateful for it. The same I was grateful for the construction job that didn't pay high wages. I was able to gain valuable skills and do my own work. I am able to operate machines and build.
Careers aside, it’s a good thing for a society to have higher education readily available for all. It’s a shame that the costs of college have gotten to be so ridiculous.
@@benzemamumba I am not sure how I feel about going into a huge debt with formal education anymore, it has been shown over and over that several employers prefer hiring programmers that have worked on projects rather than a 4 year CS degree but a lame portfolio, point being, portfolio outweighs certificates, resourcefulness outweighs certificates. Nothing against those who are in formal education or are planning to, but not everyone has a the time or money to do so.
I honestly didn’t go into college with a very practical mindset and wasn’t on the “become a developer” grind. I just loved math and computers and wanted to learn above anything else.
Please. There is NO COMPENANT COMPANY MANAGER THAT WILL CHOOSE A SELF LEARNER OVER A CS GRAD. NO WAY!!! Comp science covers waaayyy more than Soft Engineering
A college diploma/degree is part of the country’s immigration business. The only thing considered lucky for me is that I previously didn’t get involved in IT, so possessing dual backgrounds and a chance of immigration after graduation is just acceptable 😢
Paradigms change, life moves forward, and entropy makes stagnation not possible long-term, BUT... there's a real conundrum here, which is: university CS/CE Departments are the *"ecosystems"* or *"incubators"* which spawn both the core-knowledge (incl. programming languages and computer architectures) AND the textbooks you need to self-study. IOW, you can buy only used cars all your life, but if *someone else* doesn't consistently buy NEW cars, then pretty soon the factories shut down, and NObody has ANY cars. Analogy is always suspect, but you get the idea, i.e. HOW do we sustain The Golden Goose if no one feeds the goose? #ConceptOfLABoratories Open Secret: the real "backbone" servers of The -DARPAnet- Internet are run by high-IQ low-paid Grad Students at unis around the world, but mostly in the USA and Canada... 😉
You can go to a state school for a discount, and if your parents are poor you can get government financial aid on top of that (check for your state). If they are rich maybe they saved the money for you
Yeah, dunno about that one chief. Defo worth it if you want to go into tech, all my friends who studied comp sci are far ahead. Physics degree can get you far as well, with more options perhaps.
these take always seemed short sighted from me when people who aren’t software developers say this. Yea I think computer science degrees especially nowadays are outdated but its because of the course work they take rather than it being a waste of money. Telling someone to “just go to a bootcamp bro” or something similar is misguided when software engineering has more complex parts that colleges introduce you to. Unless you have already massive interest in the field and know what part you want to dedicate yourself to then yea dont go to college because you will more broadly know what it is you need to learn to get a job. If you have no experience and haven’t worked on software ever college at least gets you on a track to develop yourself into a better programmer and gives you the tools to network and find people with common goals and interests. Other than that leading people down a leet code and javascript mindset is kinda misguided because there is more in software engineering to learn to make you more competitive than just this. TLDR; if you’re going to be self taught learn things at a deeper level to not be disposable like most people who got axed the only truth is tech is secure and well paid for those who put in the effort snd passion into mastering it
I got ze 4-year sheepskin, back when it was affordable, but... I'm good with any trend that puts downward pressure on the *absurd and baseless hyper-inflation* in college tuition! Well, it's not totally baseless, like ALL inflation, it comes back to Fed.Gov pumping money into a sector (Student Loans, WIOA, etc). NOTHING has gone up in price since 1990 like college tuition! NONE of the core costs (labs, computers, faculty salaries, electricity, etc.) have risen nearly as much. #NotSustainable #StopTheMadness
Your information that in the country of Nepal or India a college degree is necessary for any kind of decent job applies to the Philippines also. Over there you can’t even be a McDonalds cashier without a college degree.
why it's always either you have a job or you are getting degree! why not having a part-time job while having a degree and get the benefit from both? note there is a lot of people doing that
I've been hearing the software field is extremely hard to find a job at now days and people can't even get an interview after thousands of applications. Maybe I'll just get my CDL license and drive trucks which is more physically challenging but the fastest way to start earning close to a 6 figure salary.
This is nonsense bias 😅 I could say the same regarding every other major… I’m sorry, but as the tech industry advances we will see less of self-taught “engineers”.
We’ve gone from almost exclusive degrees to now many self taught/alternate routes jumping into the industry. Are we then going to start going backwards again?
@@TravisMedia I really hope that the use of the word "engineer" will get properly regulated, like it is in many countries in relation to the traditional engineering. All those "self-educated" are giving software engineering a bad reputation, and it's high time the industry is getting regulated and cleansed of the impostors.
@@TravisMedia how it's done in medicine, in civil engineering, damn, even in plumbing - certification by professional standards bodies with a government mandate to regulate. And, yes, ideally a pre-requisite for certification must be a relevant degree - just like you're unlikely to find a self-educated neurosurgeon, although it might be theoretically possible to go that way.
@@vitalyl1327 Of course a neurosurgeon. Of course a civil engineer. Plumbing, no way. Certifications can help, but thousands of plumbers are making big money from being an former apprentice or learning from an uncle. The IT field has spoken and it doesn't require a certification or a degree. It doesn't take a degree to learn front end development or back-end AT ALL. Hundreds of thousands can attest to that and are happy in their positions. There are many software engineering positions a self-taught dev wouldn't land (probably what you speak of and a degree is definitely needed to succeed in) and the truth is, wouldn't want to. Certifications are why you cant be a teacher in the US without taking on tens of thousands in debt just to make 28K a year. (hats off). Bottom line is I don't NEED a degree to do software development. I can learn on my own, or at BootCamp, or at a community college. Other professions, not so. It's just the way it is. "Cleanse" the self-taught devs and there won't be an industry.
It cost an average of $32000 not $100000 for a 4 year CS degree in Australia, one doesn't have to be in debt to do it, I work full-time to pay it off during the day and study at night, It's a lot of work but it's doable, Now the reason why I opt for this route - a CS degree gives me a solid foundation where I can pivot to any field of IT I want, Software Development, Cybersecurity, Network Engineering, Cloud Computing, Platform Engineering, DevOps Engineering, Machine Learning, Data Science the list goes on, but if someone who wants to go for Software Development specifically, one doesn't need to go to University.
This is also the average for a 4 year degree in the US, this video is just posting extremely misleading information about the data. If you are getting 100k worth of student loan debt for a 4 year bachelors degree, the person made unnecessary decisions to lead towards that debt. For example, as mentioned in this video, out of stage schools do cost on average 27k to attend, but you don't need to go out of state to go to college. There are good reasons I believe a self taught/bootcamp route make sense to pursue, but the reasons pointed out in this video for a young person that's fresh out of high school they simply don't make sense.
You have 7 years of experience, right? I think when you started your journey, it was a bit easier to get a dev job than it is now. You don’t need to spend 100k+ to get a college degree. You can go to community college, do well, get scholarships and minimize your costs. Your coding boot camps or “certificates” are not really recognized anywhere are they? Or very limited companies/places don’t really recognize them. Plus they teach frameworks or “programming.” Not CS, and CS isn’t programming, nor does it teach you to be a frameworker. University is still a good choice because whether you like it or not, it’s the de facto way of getting into the system and being another cog in the machine. Universities are still the best way to network, getting in on new groundbreaking research.
It’s kind of misleading to look at college prices without looking at the rate of return on that cost. Average lifetime earnings with any STEM college degree are far higher than high school only, which will far outweigh that 200k. Stats and numbers are so easy to spin if done sloppily (mine in this comment are sloppy too!)
The degree I did (not computer science) taught us how to think, how to problem solve. Not going to get that on an online course. You seem to just be making the argument that computer science is not actually worthy of being taught as a degree? If that is true, I wonder if this is why it may get replaced by AI? Or perhaps the guys who learn it all online will be the ones easily replaced?
I like reading all these comments which appear to have not listened/watched the first part of Travis's video. This is not an absolute recommendation, he even gives explicit reasons as to why this video may not be right for the various person. Navigating the nuances of internet can be tough, but come on....don't come on here and give your tiny/boundaries scenario unique to you. Relax.
Why would I even watch a video that starts out with a deceptive title? I already know that whatever comes next comes from a person who can't be trusted. :-)
The mental damage that the computer science degree has on many students is rarely talked about. It messed up most of my classmates. I don't know if I'm okay either. Took me 5 years to gather the courage to go back for the certificate.
I totally agree with you, I am 45 yrs old, I wasted my time pursuing a college degree and now I have been unemployed for 11 months, I took several courses and certifications which taught me much better than college degree.
the primary thing I'm worried about, is which websites provide decent to good courses that - as long as I put in the proper amount of effort - I could be considered to be competent at; whether that's for job interviews, or even for hobbyist skills. for instance, I've been using the Win32 API w/C++ to 'hack' a game executable recently. I've gotten to the point where I have the game being remotely controlled by this program, with a display using the Console API built into the Win32 API. I think that can at least be considered bordering between a beginning and intermediate student level, wouldn't it? I am serious about learning, but I do kivetch at the thought that I will invest all my time - and some of my money - on courses that will not be worth the investment.
Waw, that's impressive. You have the mind to be a very good programmer if you study it. Just to learn the patterns and how to actually build things. Seeing other smart people's projects can really help unlock your programming potential. I spend lots of time on Udemy and ZeroToMastery and of course youtube loll. Udemy has that $40/mo plan that offers an ample collection of courses. My favorite instructor would be Stephen Grider. He is a beast. I learn all my JavaScript (React, Next, TensorFlow, etc..) from him. If you check him out, you will not regret it. ZTM is also a particularly good option to learn modern industry technologies. Btw, I have a CS degree. I'd say, my vetting of these guys is quite decent.
What is this video. Normally I appreciate the videos you put out into the space as you talka bout interesting topics a lot of tech influencers don't talk about, but this video is just full of dangerous assumptions. The average cost of a college tuition is 36 thousand dollars as you pointed out with a standard year of an in state tuition, assuming someoen isn't being savvy with going to a community college. Most people are not going to out of state schools, and the perception that people are averaging 100k student loans simply isn't true and mostly being propagated by people who made the active decision to go to a college they could not afford. Assuming you find a job in the industry within a year after graduating at 80k starting price, you already above the median income price most people make in the industry, which very easily can increase to 100k through job hopping and promotions within 10 years. If you paid the standard repayment plan for a 36k loan, the amount of interest you would pay would be around 10 thousand dollars, not double the cost of the loan, because as you pay the loan off you are not just paying off the interest of the loan but also the principle. If you put more down on the loan (which a person with 100k absolutely can do), then the amount on that loan lowers even more. The cost of living and books are things that you have to pay while going to the college, which all should be factors people should consider when choosing which college to go to. It does suck to have low wages while trying to go to college, but this would be a problem for someone that is also going to self taught route as well, and as you stated for self taught developers, you don't go to college for your current cost of living but for your potential earnings after receiving your degree. Information is available on the internet to consume, but it is vastly more difficult to learn the necessary information online than it is through college.There are videos online that simply do not have a good grasp of the reaility of what you should learn as a self taught developer. Javascript and Python are not the vast majority of software engineering jobs, as most jobs use Java or C#. There is also information that simply isn't going to be on people's radar to learn going the self taught route, which may take them years well into their career to learn if they actually choose to go that route that may hurt their potential in the long term. Especially in 2023, the one thing that should be taken away from this year is that the overwhelming majority of people trying to go this route will not make it, even when they do everything right. College degrees are the default filter most places use to be able to screen candidates, especially now since the industry is oversaturated at the junior level. I'm not against peopel going self taught or a bootcamp route as I believe they are a great alternative in some cases where college simply doesn't make sense to pursue, however the reasons in this video are not the reasons I would argue someone not to get a degree. It is literally the path of least resistance in this industry.
TFDusk Agreed! Very well spoken comment. Thank you for puting the time and care into showing how dangerous this advice in this video is. I know that, because I was a guy with just a highschool diploma and tried the self-taught route and lead me to nowhere...
My younger sister has a computer science degree. She graduated from the UC Berkeley . She makes enough to get two big houses in Silicon Valley. She is working for apple and has no interest in posting on RUclips.
Most employers don't. Many want at least master's degree AND five years of industry experience or PhD. The safe bet is the PhD. It also gives you a lot more confidence.
@@benzemamumba A regular tech job is not a career. It will stay a regular tech job for the rest of your life. You will soon be working for a PhD who is ten or twenty years younger than you. Don't believe me? It happened to me. I was the PhD in that unfortunate relationship but after a year I made more than the guy made after 25 years on the job. I really liked the guy, too, and even wrote a letter to our bosses to have his pay grade upgraded. He deserved it but was caught in a bunch of HR rules that kept him down in the boons, despite his obvious experience and achievements.
you need knowledge/training, experience and projects. If you can manage those with the help of Pluralsight,Coursera etc than why to waste 4 years ? I just realized that i want to specialize in Cyber Security and I can do it all online. I dont have time for a uni. It is amazing that now you can do it!
Aside from my one CS cert I got for free just by going to a trade school that was offering free enrollment before age 20 I'd say that college is a huge waste of time when you realize that a majority of the classes aren't even really necessary for programming, they're just huge time sinks, and you can learn just as much if not more theory for CS online for free now, and with technology rapidly expanding with things like AI by the time you get done with college you'd still be behind because most colleges maybe only teach you about AI before 2022 and possibly touch on chatGPT where its easier than ever to learn from home even without the latest GPU processors. This is also coming from someone who only recently got back into programming after dropping out of community college and taking an almost 6 year hiatus.
No. Reading and learning on your own is NOT the same as college. What separates Self Taught from a College graduate is assessments and evaluations. You think that you know something until you are tested on it.
Here in South America we dont need to pay for a Computer Science Engineering Degree, its true the classes are going to be kind of poor Tech but at the end of the day its about skill, knowledge and efficiency and not how expensive your computer is, so taking into consideration here is FREE, is it worth it in this continent? Tho i must say the only con is that its 5 YEARS of college, which i dont know if it is good or bad
@TravisMedia I'm so sorry watching someone like you to encourage people not go for studying in universities, and more than that, because of your very insane reasons. I'm just very happy the top comments here are not agree with you. @OtherPeopleReadingThis The whole internet (specially RUclips) is full of junks like this one. Please don't accept something just because a RUclips-er with many million subscribers is saying this; just think about what you may hear.
The US is 1.7trillion dollars in student loan debt, an average of $37,000 a person. People carry that burden through the majority of their working years. Software Development is a career that can be attained by taking on 0 of that debt. I'm not sure what the insane reasons are here?
My biggest concern is that I have really bad ADHD, I struggle to maintain information, comprehend things, and push myself to do things. Software Dev is something I really want to get into, but I am scared that I won't be able to do it due to not being able to learn all that well.
So what are you saying exactly? All should not have a CS degree if they want to pursue a career in coding but instead be self taught? There has to be a standard which everyone must follow. CS degree is a way of declaring your seriousness and getting formal review by persons who are acceedited to do so. This is why people who are from ivilgue university are better off than people who have graduated from average university. I understand your point but a CS degree is not just computer science focused. My opinion is that everyone in this day and age must at least have a degree at a minimum.
@@benzemamumba Yeah I love it. I’m going to point out that I’m taking a competency based CS bachelor program to get my CS degree in 6 months through WGU. It doesn’t have to be a binary option. The course is $4000. AND THEY ACCEPT FINANCIAL AID!!! So I’ll complete that and go for my masters in physics.
5:40 Indecision - I think this is the main issue with degrees (in any field), even if it isn't the degree's fault. You don't really have the time to think what you really want.
1 year of self-study does not equate to the 5 or more years of experience often required to subvert a college degree requirement in the industry. I have a 4-year degree in IT and even then, it's hard to transition to Computer Science because of the training and education I haven't had. I agree with Forbes, at least with a degree you don't have to sacrifice 4 years of your life being miserable, working for a crap company that will often under pay you well beyond what would have been made had you been at an employer that's willing to pay more for an educated applicant.
can you please comment what is the real story regarding being able to work remotely? How prevalent is it? Are there particular companies, subject matter, and technologies that are more allowed? If someone's sole objective is working remotely is that easy, medium difficult or more difficult? Or anything else you think is important to mention. thanks
Not really relevant in Sweden where u get money for studying. It doesn't cost anything and you get study allowance to be able to pay rent and food. A smaller part, like $400/month, u actually GET and you the rest, approx. $1200, is a loan with very low interest. Those random courses you mentioned wouldn't be part of CS-programs. Usually a program is very well thought through with things building on top of each other. However, I agree that CS is something that can be self-taught very well and you can focus on exactly what u wanna learn. I personally find it much easier with motivation when I study something simply 'cause I want to, rather than have to. Ofc, u choose the Uni-program, but u can still feel like u "have to" study those courses, despite choosing the program.
At 28, I did community college for two years, did very well, get a scholarship to a four-year university. Since I had already been coding professionally for 10 years, I chose Electrical Engineering instead of CS. I managed to complete the degree while working full time, and the (partial, but generous) scholarship kept my total cost to about $20k at a well-known and respected private university. I established relationships with my professors that led to a master's degree that was 100% covered by research grants. My path certainly isn't for everyone, but, in my case, it was totally worth it. Now that I'm middle-aged, the degrees have opened up a lot of opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise have had. The extra math in EE vs CS has really come in handy.
Im on the same path
@@chrisnortonjrGet it done! It's a ton of work, but it's worth it. I thought about quitting a few times. I'm glad I didn't. You got this.
Thanks man it's definitely been a struggle.@@xnadave
What I don't like about any path is that it requires someone giving you something. In your instance you were able to impress your professors which gained you a grant.
I wish there were foolproof ways for people to survive. I am not a fan of a person only being able to survive by the hands of others.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with connection, but survival shouldn't be dependent on it.
@@chrisnortonjrsame here
It may be possible to learn the skills you need without a degree, but it is going to be a hell of a lot harder to convince employers that. Places may say you don't need a degree, but it is a recognised standard that everyone understands. It is also pretty much required if you ever want to work abroad. The other advantages of higher education are the access to staff and peers it provides - it is much harder doing it on your own without that support network. University friends also tend to be people you keep in touch with for life - as you self selected the same interests. The main thing it gives you is time to learn these skills - sure you can take a sabbatical, but it is totally up to you to fund and motivate yourself. Complete self study may be (debatably) monetarily cheaper, but in many ways it is the harder option - that won't necessarily be appreciated by employers.
Same with marketing. I have worked in marketing for 2 years, which I got by luck. Yet most other marketing jobs I applied for want a degree.
While you have points, what you are saying misses the overall point. It is not just self-studying code. He also is saying embark on legitmate projects, work on soft skills (communicating), apply to (try over and over) at a bunch of different places... these are the same things you do in college. Why not do them for less than the cost of tution, some of the distractions that are not helpful, and years of student loan debt.
That said, I went to university in the 80s like many of my friends (who did not use their degrees), then ended up in IT despite not taking a single class in engineering. I got in to IT through my interest and hours I put in at home, my personality, and circumstance.
University is for Higher Learning--analysis, experimentation, advancing the science. This is different than Application: the use and refining the use of an area.
Conversely, my son was not interested in college, but I did start teaching him coding in elementary school (there are so many great learning programs for children) and he has done a ton of projects on his own and with groups. He is making more than I did at his age. There are a lot more factors at play than just a college degree.
Not really. So many people in computer science fields don’t have degrees and were self-taught. Don’t mistaken having the skills and talent with needing a degree. Even some universities require students to study/learn by themselves. Work also requires you to learn by yourself on the job sometimes. A lot of people graduate from college and don’t use the material they learned. So if you don’t understand how to pick up the subject after 4 years of college or even after a couple of classes, the field probably isn’t for you.
Nonsense. Having certifications is better than a degree. As a guy who hires, I pay no attention to CS degrees. Most are worthless. Too many losers cheat and copy homework. I want to see MSFT certifications (preferably) and will give the candidate a project to do and submit in 1 week. If I like the work, I make an offer. If I don't, trash .. next.
While getting a CS or engineering degree doesn't guarantee you a job, a degree from a well-known university will open more doors for you than a bootcamp or being self-taught. There is, for sure, a difference between you will learn in school vs what you do on the job. However, I think it's definitely worth thinking about survivorship bias. The people who are self-taught or did bootcamps and are successful are the ones you'll see posting on the internet, you rarely see anyone posting who didn't find success - just something to think about. Overall, interesting points!
Also forgot to mention the fact that bootcamps and such won't really close a 4 year gap from a degree, I have worked with a lot people who were on the field, most being from college, and the self taughts needed a lot more time to get up to pace and a lot more problems while adapting
Most people do not care where you went to school.
@@ilovetech8341 I agree once you get the job, but the problem is getting the first job. Most well-known universities have really good campus recruiting to help new grads get jobs - career fairs, networking events, company visits, on-campus interviews, hackathons, etc., that you don't get if you don't go to a good school. Otherwise, you're stuck applying online randomly where your resume is in a pile with another 1000 people
Yeah i'm part of Harvard, i'm Harvard bla bla yada yada. Cut that out.
Think about survivorship bias? survivorship bias is not to be think about but studied, provide statistics and not general meanigless statements.
This is not good advice Travis. While a degree isn't 100% necessary, it certainly opens up doors compared to not having the degree. Another factor is that a degree at an institution provides you both the resources AND the incentive to learn the skill of programming. The external pressures to do well in a program that you or your parents are paying for FORCES you to learn. You have no excuses. Depending on the institution, it is arguably the best environment to learn this skill.
The problem is that in many cases the student nor their parent are paying for it. It is instead paid for with an outrageous loan with an outrageous interest rate that keeps people in an endless grind throughout their prime working years. If a loan isn’t needed then that would probably be one of the two exceptions I mentioned at the start of the video and by all means go for it. It does help.
@@TravisMedia You know what? That's a completely fair point. I didn't watch the video through and through and dived straight to the comments without investigating further. I apologize for that and going forward I won't do that again.
Nope. No apologies needed. Glad to see everyone’s opinions on this.
Online accelerates universities, notably WGU, is in my opinion the best budget option for a degree. I got my Cloud Computing bach in 2 semesters and only 9k debt that I already paid off, and my friend got his CS degree in 4. We're both making six figures so it speaks for itself.
Hey, I am planning to enroll in the cloud computing degree this Janurary at WGU. Can you tell me how you landed your first job? I have no IT experience and I know that Cloud Computing is not entry level.
Since when "cloud computing" is a science?!?
I’m with you on this. My son dropped out of his mechanical engineering degree program at a major university in June and switched to WGU to get a degree in cyber security. He’s on track to complete it within two six month cycles.
And their computer science bachelor’s degree program is now accredited by ABET, which is the best accreditation there is in the engineering world.
@@vitalyl1327😂 cyber degrees are just as worthless. If someone applies to a cloud job with a CS degree and they're compared to someone with a "cloud" degree. I can imagine that the CS degree will be the winner
@@MinisterRedPill So try to aquire job experience to compete better against a CS degree
Getting a degree in Computer Science, Engineering or IT related fields is definitely NOT A BAD decision.
Besides, a CS degree is not equivalent to knowing programing.
What points did you disagree with?
You can't be serious. Do you know how much programming, Homeworks, projects a CS student must complete before graduation?
Think of a CS degree as a degree where you get taught every topic that relates to computer system
@@ImetalhAh, gotta. No, it's the science of computers. You study the history of computers, lots of maths, hardware, software, databases, algorithms, computer vision, data structures, programming languages, operating systems, circuits, software engineering, and a bunch other stuff.
It is a very good degree for undergraduate. You can go deeper in any field after that. From databases to software engineering, machine learning, computer/electrical/mechanical/electronics engineering and so many other fields.
I am guessing these are the reasons compagnies kind of like the CS degrees sometimes. Though it has a heavy programming section, you also study lots of other related topics that helps you make better programming decisions.
At least that is my take on it.
@romaneaugustin2462 lol any good CS degree will be mostly math-based. Remember you're studying computer science, not programming
as someone who had 2 years of experience before joining university, data structures and algorithms are very hard to learn on your own.
Do I need to learn them for software engineering or cs as a whole?
@@randomfellow1483 You practically learn DS and Algos when learning a programming language anyways, but its good to understand the why, what, when, when and where to use them. So in a way yes you will need to learn them.
BS your just saying that to get rid of the competition
Are you serious man!!
Computer science is not about learning code that would makes it worthless as you mentioned but it is about solving problem with math the way computers work.
Computer science prepares you to write good programs and analyse it.
"It is a science not just coding".
And by the it's hardly to get a job with no degree because all the HR systems automatically checks if you meet the requirements or not and all companies requring a bachelor degree as a minimum qualification.
Also with the AI in hand so it's hard to get a job even as a freelance.
It depends on where you live. Online people are saying don’t go to college but look at most job searches & they want people with a degree. If you work for yourself you don’t need a degree but then you need capital to start a business. And success doesn’t happen overnight.
Any recruiter worth their salt will say "or equivalent experience" ontop of also still looking in a degree holders experience. Experience trumps degree everytime. 4 years worth, and its a landslide!
@@SAbre5311 it really depends. If they can’t retain employees then they will take someone w/o a degree.
You need a degree in this economy.
success doesnt happen overnight and every night you have to find a way to put food in your stomach, so essentially you would have to have enough money to take more risks.
downvoting this, forget about not having a degree, you can't get a cs job WITH a degree
I agree - this information is not applicable to the 2024 market. The market is tight now, and for the limited companies that are interested in entry level developers, they want sheepskins and internships.
I know of folks with or in process of getting CS degrees from a top 5 CS program which enjoys heavy recruitment cycle partnerships with fortune 500 companies, and those students are finding the market very competitive. Internships are the current requirement method for entry level devs at present.
Agree with a lot of what you're saying but this was my experience... I graduated college with a non-CS engineering degree but quickly decided I'd made a mistake and would rather be a Software Developer. ...so, I jumped ship, "learned to code" (although I already knew a lot) and luckily found a company to give me an opportunity. I absolutely considered myself self-taught at that point and I was very successful for the first few years. ...but after a while I realized I just seemed to be missing some things that really-good CS grads knew. So, I went back to school for a Masters. Fortunately, by that point, I could MAKE MY EMPLOYER PAY FOR IT. Anyway, I discovered the things I was missing were basically the boring, but important, crap nobody wants to learn on their own without being forced to. Are you really gonna take the time to learn the difference between an O(n log n) algorithm and an 0(n^2) algorithm on your own? Probably not. But knowing that stuff takes you to the next level....if that's what you're after.
@bjiggs01
Yea but you had a degree. There are a huge number of people that keep screaming that you can work as a software engineer without degree. But they are wrong!!!
You had a degree, understanduble that your degree was not CS related. But you had a degree!!!
Somebody who just has a highschool diploma and teachings himself how to code has no chance. Put your ass in the HR lady shoes, HR lady doesn give a shit about skill, she wants accreditations!!!!
I started my data science degree 4 weeks ago after self learning to code by myself for 14 months. Im so happy i did, im only in my 4th week at university and we're already discussing things like databases and sql, before i decided to go to university i heard negative thing's like self learning is better (which it may be i agree) they dont teach you relevant things etc, i can confirm that is a lie. Yes i self taught myself to code in python and that was a great ultimate boost to start uni, ive basically started my first class as one of the top students (only after 4 weeks) so i think a mix of the 2 is vital, im 37 and plan on being a junior data scientist within a year. Just do it guys, save stress of being rejected just because u dont have a degree. Plus i only paid £20,000 for my 3 year data science degree here in London and the government paid for it via the student finance loan. University is very structured allowing you to feel your doing each step perfectly, but im also doing a data science bootcamp alongside it so ill always be ahead of whatever university throw at me. Be smart 🤓
Telling people to not pursue higher education in this economy is such bad advice.
telling people to go 200k in debt for a higher education that doesnt mean anything in this economy, is such bad advice
I agree
@@exist140 he just told that the avg is $10k per year, $40k for 4 years, but truth is with financial aid, you will max need $10k over 4 years
@@exist140 how am I supposed to take you seriously if you don't even do the basic modicum of research to know that a CS degree is not 200k... BSc would have costed me 32k if I were paying out of pocket, except I had scholarships so I actually ended up getting paid to go to school...
"Telling people not to accrue debt in the worst economy in decades is such bad advice"
Does it make sense when you say it out loud
CS isn't even a software engineering degree. It's general, and basic. Find any university and read over the courses.
Learn what you need to get the job you want. Especially in this economy. If you don't know what you want to do, go to college. We may end up in the same position, but I'll have more money than you.
TBH go to community college first, college allows you to network and meet peers and socialize while learning, also having a degree is better than not having one, and it generally takes 4 years which is really not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things. I am going to a community college for the basics for CS and it is really not that expensive compared to going to a well known 4 year university that most people go to for the name of it, also I know plenty of people that regret not going to college because it is a good place to make friends and meet people on similar journeys, tbh studying on my own SUCKED because the only communities are primarily online and discord which isnt that much fun tbh
wouldn't community college essentially delay the amount of time you would have to invest anyway?
@@MrValsung You can do the basics for college and intro to programming courses so your still progressing and learning while having the ability to network and get into internships
The only problem with degree, even an AA from a community college, is they’ll stuff you with lots of maths. At my JC, you’ll be looking at all the calculus classes, linear algebra, and differential equations.
@@halea41 I agree that it is a lot of math and if you want to be a web developer than college may not be necessary, but it you want to actually be a software engineer and create algos and fully understand things like cryptography than math is necessary, I also think knowing higher level concepts and math is good especially since web development is something that can be automated to a point especially in the future
Look into scholarships. I graduated with an A.S. and B.S. in CS with only $2k out of pocket TOTAL. Idk where you are going to college but if you're in the US then see if your Community College has Phi Theta Kappa, its a CC honor society and joining them got me an academic scholarship when I transferred to a local University that paid half my tuition....and I only needed a 3.2 to qualify, which shouldn't be a problem.
Also, some local Universities will have scholarships for students who transfer after earning an A.S. at a local CC. I had several friends take out student loans when they could have done the same thing but they never researched it.
This is bad bad advice!
I was a guy with a highschool diploma, I resigned my job and self taught myself how to code for 1 year. I put in over 3000 hours...
I applied at hundreds of jobs... I went to Tech events in my large city (almost 10 milion people)
Still nothing. Yeah I know there are people who brag that they got a job without a CS degree, but those jokers don't mention that they still had a degree in a unrelated field!!
I have a little over 3 years professional experience as a self-taught mobile dev and have been stuck on whether or not I should get a degree. Reason being, I've only worked for start-ups and I have a goal of working for a Fortune 500, but I feel my resume gets filtered out or something without that Comp Sci BA. But you are right, it's not worth going into so much debt, I think I do need to get better at networking.
Look into community colleges, there are decent scholarships for students who earn an associates then transfer to a local University. I had several friends having to take out loans for school when they could have gotten the same scholarships I did but they never researched it.
Traditionally, going from Start-ups to Fortune 500s is challenging, but it's doable. It appears that you feel like you're being overlooked because you don't have the Com Sci BA. In that case, you may want to consider GT's Masters in Com Sci. (assuming you already have a degree from a 4-year institution), But GT's MA in Com Sci is insanely cheap (less than 7k for the entire program). You'll get to learn from some highly respected Computer Scientists.
I had to take some prep courses before entering the program due to my transition into Com Sci, but your path may be different because you already have programming experience.
Developers with years of experience talking about going back to school are the weirdest to me.
People go to college for one reason- to get a job. You made it.
4 years of additional work experience > a Bachelors. You're also loosing out on salary and salary growth for 4 years. Climb the ladder by upgrading your job and youll get there.
@@JegErN0rsk Senior Software Engineer at a Big 4 firm and I disagree. I'm currently working on a CS degree simply because I can't get any more promotions (not raises, promotions) without one. Once you reach a certain level you definitely need a degree if you want a better position. That being said, I definitely would not quit working to go to school.
@@ordohereticus Getting a degree on the side is a great decision. If a university allows me, I will do the same once I get a couple of years of experience. Quitting your job to go to school, however, makes no sense. We agree. Congrats by the way.
I am surprised to hear. I know plenty of self taught in the highest of positions
What's never presented is what happens as you become older and into middle-age. You lose a job and try to replace it with a similar income but without a degree. You're at the mercy of potential employers. Also, just because someone majors in CS doesn't mean they will automatically code. I have a BSCS and I've worked in Project / Program Management for many years. I haven't coded anything since my job out of college back in '94. It's very difficult to segue into other arenas that are not directly technical such as management without a degree. Now, there are some folks that are outliers and can do this, but for most, it's just not the case. Even if it's not CS, think about down the line. Multiple bootcamps are not going to hold the weight when someone says that you interviewed well, but I don't see a degree on your resume'.....
>> Teach yourself to code and be amazing developer
Uhm, yeah, no.
As per my experience (15 years in the industry) - self-taught developer who is also amazing is exception, not the rule. Most self-taught developers are not very good on average and don't make nearly as much as people with CS background
Do you need a degree to get into a FAANG company?
@@randomfellow1483 usually they require degree OR relevant experience
Very few of software jobs are in tech companies. Most of the remaining employers do not really know how to differentiate between good and bad engineers. For them the degree is still a convenient filter.
THAT'S AN OPINION... now a FACT: the job posters and hiring managers stuff requirements for master's degree or bachelor's degree willy-nilly as much as recruiters using automated resume parsers for keywords. The job market is tight enough that master's and bachelor's holders with plenty of experience can't land a position, advocating to skip the degree is foolhardy.
That dude thinks it's still the 2010s were bootcamps and basic JS and CSS is enough.
100% worth getting a cs degree. You aren’t going to be screwed if you don’t have one, but in the grand scheme of things if you want a high paying job and or want an easy growth path. That BA in CS will be a great aid. Then add certifications etc? You will literally look top tier. You can argue you’ll have debt lol, but ok getting a $70k job for years before upgrading vs even from my university $100k out the door and $200k+ after 10 years is easily worth it in my book even my dad is an example.
You don’t NEED a degree to get a job, but you’d be foolish if you can’t see the extra doors it opens and the fact that it’ll always be easy to hire you in worst case scenarios vs a self taught person.
Your chances of landing a job often depend on a successful interview and a standout portfolio that demonstrates your skills. I taught myself and prepared for interviews by tackling challenge questions. To break into the field, I offered to work for free initially to prove my abilities, and it paid off when the company hired me at a starting salary of $70,000 per year. After the probation period, they increased my pay to $85,000. A good strategy to get noticed is reaching out directly to the hiring manager instead of just applying online.
@@DK5TY that is super cool it worked out for you! That is actually the same strategy I’ll be using too whether I graduate or not. If I can’t do it then I’ll become self taught (just not fond of having to do discrete math and calc 2. I’d be damned if that’s what stopped me lol). From there offer companies that I’ll work for free to prove my worthwhile and go from there. Talking to hiring managers is a great idea!
Enjoy your job and good luck!
@@robyee3325 it’s a bit weird, but I think I will have a bs in CS. I go to UofM and they do things a BIT different so we have two versions. One is LSA CS (literature, science, and arts. Essentially you need to take humanities, science, higher level writing, and learn a language) while the other is CSE (E being engineering, which requires calc 3 and 4-5 physics courses).
I’m in LSA CS so I’m not EXACTLY sure what I would get, but LSA does offer a BS degree so I’d imagine I’d get a BS majoring in CS. I just don’t know 100% because most universities don’t offer two options.
I do know LSA CS and CSE graduates there is no difference in who will get hired there have been studies on it so I’m not too worried! I’m just worried about getting through these difficult courses haha
It all depends on what you want a CS degree for. If you just want a job "coding" because it pays well, then no, don't go through a CS degree. Couple of bootcamps in your target field (nowadays web development or mobile development) and you are set. Of course you need to build a network to find a job but that will come with your bootcamp experience. If you want to be more competent to be able to expand your possibilities and work in more specialized fields, like operating systems, embedded software, databases, AI, etc., or want to do research, then a CS degree is kind of a must have. Travis has other video describing how it took him more work to understand certain things because he did not know certain concepts that are taught in CS, but not in bootcamps. Self-taught developers, or self-taught anything, just don't know what they don't know, and it may come back to bite them, not fatally, but sometimes painfully. Personally, some of the best developers I know don't have formal training (one is a former anthropologist!) but are passionate about coding and learning, and some CS graduates make me doubt their degree is authentic. In the end it all goes down to how passionate are you about developing software and learning.
No one is going to look through 1,000 resumes. The first filter we use in hiring and getting it down to about 50 resumes is a CS degree. It's not personal it's just practical and save time.
Exactly
Thanks for reducing our competition
I really don't think it takes 1 year. It takes 2-3 years of practice 40+ hours a week to get a job. I spent 3 years an average of 10 hours a day 6 days a week self teaching before I felt comfortable enough to start interviewing.
I guess it depends on aptitude. I’m definitely of the 2-3 year variety. I know people who just gets it and learns much fast tho.
@@halea41 Although, I was studying full stack development which I think is more work. I was also learning and integrating Docker into my project.
how did your interviews go, did you get a job?
@@Carlospenamusic1 I interviewed with 5 companies. I made it to the final interview for some of them. The 5th company hired me and I have been working there for 2 years. It was a much easier getting a job at a giant company than a startup because startups are picky. Due to my long efforts in self teaching, I am the best developer on my team and anyone that wrote code for the projects before me.
Well, in that 3 years you would've gotten a degree if you went to college. 🤦
I am staying in college since my financial aid is completely able to cover my college costs. I also would like to have a guided path towards being knowledgeable in computer science. I am self teaching myself other things like Blender and Unreal since my dream job would be an animator or game developer. If those things do not work out, I would have a computer science degree to fall back on.
You definitely have less options without cs degree since some jobs just put it as general requirement
Otherwise it’s same as all. If you good and you know what you doing and can show/prove it , you will be good
What about the faang companies? Do they require you to have a degree?
@@randomfellow1483 of course they do. Without it you'll be stuck working at Startups.
@@randomfellow1483 no but for some companies it's a must
I've literally seen job postings say "NO BOOT CAMPS". Yeah, I'm burning money on a Data Science/AI degree. But it's technically a CS degree as far as employers are concerned. Good thing I'm doing a startup.
Don't say technically... It literally is Computer Science. 🤷
Before I even get 30 seconds in my comment has to be that I'm almost certain you will not bring up the fact that OVER 90% of the CS workforce have a BS degree at the least.
So before I watch anymore of this or anyone else watches this just remember folks the most surefire way to get into tech is to get that CS degree
because again: OVER 90% of the CS workforce has a BS degree at the least!!!!!
People who say that getting a cs degree makes you rich quotes the people from 10 years ago working for 2 hours a day to get 100k a year. supply is going to rise so this is unrealistic
I enrolled in the Air National Guard/Air Force program which provided me access to the GI Bill, funding my college tuition. Through this program, I now have lifelong benefits including VA home loans, free medical treatment at VA hospitals, $5 prescription drugs, free eye glasses every 12 months, and many more benefits.
The initial training requirement was manageable - 8 weeks of basic training and about 4 months of technical school. After that, the only obligations are working one weekend per month and two weeks per year.
The Air Force, Air National Guard, and Space Force offer the most valuable job experience for transitioning into the civilian workforce later. The skills and training in these branches provide excellent alignment with in-demand jobs outside the military. Focusing your military service in one of those areas will set you up well for a smooth shift into related civilian careers.
you spend time in Iraq or Afghanistan?
wow $5 prescription drugs and free glasses, I'll take one lifelong PTSD sir
Terrible advice. The network you get from self-taught and bootcamps are non-existent. There's no reason for people to want to associate with you.
You go to a university for the credential, and the pipeline it leads you to have where companies will even CONSIDER you for an internship. With how difficult the market is, for people who aren't extremely talented, bootcamps and self-taught are non-options.
if you believe you have the aptitude for it, and you are going to a top university whose alums end up going to top companies, it is the best way for you to get onto the potentially best career path in the world.
There is always the chance it won't work out like the video poster said. But if you believe you have the aptitude and the financial incentives are there... go for it.
bro why do people say a degree is 216k public state schools are like 15-18k a year but i think colleges biggest downfall is the useless classes you have to take you already took in highschool such as humanities and english etc
15 x 4 = 60K + interest over 25 years. Not 216, but more than a enough to keep one a slave to debt throughout their prime years
They are even cheaper like 1k a semester and can be even cheaper if u get ur AA at a cc then transfer to an instate uni
I agree, the humanities courses like hist, eng, and comm are unnecessary but they wont change it
Western Governor’s University. $4,200 per six month term. ABET accredited for their computer science major, which is the best there is in accreditation for engineering fields.
At WGU you go at your own pace. I don’t know anyone doing their programs that doesn’t complete at least two traditional semesters per six month period and the vast majority complete three.
That means for about $13,000 in eighteen months of year-round study you can have both the skills and an accredited degree. I think it’s great.
my bsc would have cost me 32k, but was free with scholarships
Ideally, universities should be for getting an education... not for getting job training. People treat higher education as the next stepping stone to their desired career when really it should be an enriching experience that builds your understanding of the world. I understand this is about practical career decision-making, but education is so much more than learning about how to perform a task... it's learning about what challenges the world faces and how your skills can address those challenges. The fact that people in the United States can't value education beyond what it can earn them in dollars is pretty much why democracy is crumbling around us. People don't understand history, culture, art, music, or anything else that makes us human because they are ONLY focused on accumulating wealth and consuming shit they don't need.
Exactly my argument! I couldn't have put it better.
A degree will be valuable forever specially if its a respected university
Most definitely valuable and an asset. But is it worth the cost?
@@TravisMedia it's not really much. you're not forced to go to a private university. you can go to a respected public university and there many and save 5x
Bootcamps don’t teach real programming. They teach high level languages or frameworks, but you really don’t know how computers work. Bootcamps just train people to translate business requirements into code. But calling it code is generous. It’s like being a mechanic instead of an engineer-big difference. To do it right you need to learn the underlying theory, assembly language, C, C++, then the higher level languages which are written in C.
Translating business requirements into code has given millions great salaries in a fraction of the time and cost/debt. A winning advancement. By the way none of these people would care to be called “engineers”
Haha people trashing a comp sci degree have a big problem, it takes 3 to 4yrs to Get a decent tech job..for self taught.
it takes 4yrs to complete a degree,nowadays CS graduates finish uni with great portfolios too as they know importance of side projects, goodluck with your bootcamp or self taught journey in 2023 and beyond. Travis here got into tech probably when knowing basic JavaScript or comptia aplus was hot cake, he's old and experienced,its called the curse Of Knowledge.
I am getting my computer science degree, and I say it really varies person to person and their is no one size fits all solution for everyone. I got first 2 years free at community college and transfered to a state college with an easy to get scholarship that took off half the tuition. I never even stepped foot in debt. It is a good idea, just don't be dumb and work hard.
Thank you for this - I’ve been struggling with what I should do 1. Because I work full time and my current job requires a lot of time so I am able to keep a roof over my head and all other responsibilities I have to give attention to. I’m starting with khan academy and code academy to get my feet wet (because I’m a newbie) and find it extremely difficult to make time to go to school. I’m at a loss because 50% of people say it’s better to acquire a cs degree and the other 50% say I don’t need it just put it the work to self teach and give yourself time etc etc .. I’ll accept that it may take me longer or I’d have to prove myself more without a cs degree but I just want to make sure it’s not mandatory if I don’t. I find degrees extremely valuable and I look up to those who do have a cs degree however If I’m being true to myself and this is my own individual circumstance . I don’t find it feasible. Mostly for sanity reasons and not wanting so much debt. I’m not trying to land a cs job immediately right after I learn one language and call myself a software engineer. I understand it’ll require time and knowledge but I guess my question is with that understanding I just want to make sure that in the future I’ll be able to get a good career out of it lol
Please please please enroll in near by in-state university and take classes slowly. Many of my CS degree classes were offered late in the day to accommodate for those who had work or other classes. Self learning is not guaranteed. With a CS degree you're bound to at least make your foot through the door.
University of central Florida charges 6k per year tuition, so I'm tempted to go because teaching myself hasn't turned out well. This mightve been true for some extremely motivated people in the past, but there's too much competition now
While I agree that college is mostly a scam, it's how the game is played. Remember when Meta first did layoffs when Open AI released ChatGPT? They culled the workforce of remote and self taught devs. Most people who were bootcampers who had industry experience were laid off for no reason other than they didn't have degrees. Also, I don't think college needs to be that expensive. Especially if you go in-state. My entire in-state university degree cost me a little over 6-7K. I come from a middle class background so I didn't quality for need based aid either. Most states give out merit-based scholarships to students who keep a B average GPA. That paid for 80% of my tuition. You never really pay the sticker price of most colleges. I also applied for random scholarships which I happened to get. Keep in mind my summers were also spend at internships, so I got experience and made some extra money too. My highest paying internship was at around $40 an hr for 12 weeks.
Im starting college next year and luckily I will have my tuition entirely paid for by scholarships and theres a high chance i will receive federal aid for housing and other costs due to my financial situation. It pays to excel in high school and my advice to others is if you plan to pursue the degree, opt for a public state school because they are far cheaper and will usually give you just as good of an education from what ive heard/seen
If you live in a country where the education is really expensive and you want to become a porgrammer / software engineer, sure i agree, if you manage to go the self taught route that's fine and great.
But computer science is not just programming, it's also, or even more so, fundametals like maths and theoretical computer science that teach you to think differently and that are needed in many fields to actually do anything useful.
As a pure programmer you may not need any of them a lot, but for many other jobs and tasks in the field you absolutely do. And Academic knowledge and research is not just about producing good code monkeys. Gaining a deeper Knowlege of things is both rewarding in itself and of value to society.
The problem here is that Uni is to expensive for many, not that it's a bad system. But it does not produce programmers, but computer scientists.
Boom!
I did this. I have an AS degree in Science. I got a Software Engineer Apprenticeship at IBM. 2+ years later I'm being laid off. I'm being rejected from every job, completely ghosted. I wish I had the confidence to apply during the pandemic I would be a Senior level dev by now and much harder to lay off. Now I won't be employed probably for 2 more years and will need to start my career over.
AS degree in Science...which science?
@@benzemamumba General science. Pre Calc - Calc 1, BIO 1 & 2, Chem 1&2, Physics 1&2. Some entry level CIS courses in databases, no coding though.
Thank you for sharing these insights. Im 40 and been wanting to go for a career change into tech from construction. College is the natural path to go. This helps give some perspective.
1st, there's something to be said for the networking opportunities that attending a university will get you. Yeah you can learn all you want on your own, but it doesn't how much you learn if you don't have any connections.
2nd, It's not that easy to stay that motivated and pick out things you don't know to teach yourself. You don't know what you don't know, so how can you expect to accurately find information that you don't even know exists? University exposes you to a lot of things that you wouldn't find otherwise.
The social and networking aspects of a degree are what makes the degree valuable, not just the skills you might learn by obtaining it.
my uni costs only 8k x 4 years its not that bad bro so bias, taking the shortcut in life isnt always the best way for everyone
It's not the 2010s anymore my dude. You're not getting in learning html css and js.
Yes it is a shame only the universities can teach us more.
@@TravisMedia i think its more the point that companies started to restrict hiring to cs grads it seems
@@jarg7CS Degree, Information Technology, and Software Engineering.
Problem with Zero To Mastery is for some courses they don’t always keep their courses up to date….
I think they do a good job at it. The frameworks and skills in this industry change and update so rapidly it’s hard to continually monitor all the changes. In fact I feel like by the time you finish making an entire course it will have already felt outdated 😂
Feel that too
College is still worth it for me. I know it may not help me get a job but the education was valuable. I may never use it and I may end up doing something else entirely. I don't know. Don't care. Just grateful for it. The same I was grateful for the construction job that didn't pay high wages. I was able to gain valuable skills and do my own work. I am able to operate machines and build.
Careers aside, it’s a good thing for a society to have higher education readily available for all. It’s a shame that the costs of college have gotten to be so ridiculous.
I love watching your videos, currently self teaching myself Python, can't agree more, but this verifies a lot for me.
That's not good advice. Education is always a good thing.
@@benzemamumba I am not sure how I feel about going into a huge debt with formal education anymore, it has been shown over and over that several employers prefer hiring programmers that have worked on projects rather than a 4 year CS degree but a lame portfolio, point being, portfolio outweighs certificates, resourcefulness outweighs certificates.
Nothing against those who are in formal education or are planning to, but not everyone has a the time or money to do so.
I honestly didn’t go into college with a very practical mindset and wasn’t on the “become a developer” grind. I just loved math and computers and wanted to learn above anything else.
That's what's up. You persude education because you had the hunger for the knowledge. That's how it's done. 👌
Please. There is NO COMPENANT COMPANY MANAGER THAT WILL CHOOSE A SELF LEARNER OVER A CS GRAD. NO WAY!!! Comp science covers waaayyy more than Soft Engineering
@@lamarcusguiton3007 Tell that to all the self learners employed in tech out there
I agree with the earlier part but what's with the nonsense about Computer Science covering way more than Software Engineering? 🤨
But HR will automatically disregard your application if you have no degree
Happens all the time. Heck these days you're competing with people with Masters degrees too.
Now they have AI filters HR systems. A human will not even read your CV if you don't have a degree... Any degree for that matter...
A college diploma/degree is part of the country’s immigration business. The only thing considered lucky for me is that I previously didn’t get involved in IT, so possessing dual backgrounds and a chance of immigration after graduation is just acceptable 😢
Paradigms change, life moves forward, and entropy makes stagnation not possible long-term, BUT... there's a real conundrum here, which is: university CS/CE Departments are the *"ecosystems"* or *"incubators"* which spawn both the core-knowledge (incl. programming languages and computer architectures) AND the textbooks you need to self-study.
IOW, you can buy only used cars all your life, but if *someone else* doesn't consistently buy NEW cars, then pretty soon the factories shut down, and NObody has ANY cars. Analogy is always suspect, but you get the idea, i.e. HOW do we sustain The Golden Goose if no one feeds the goose? #ConceptOfLABoratories Open Secret: the real "backbone" servers of The -DARPAnet- Internet are run by high-IQ low-paid Grad Students at unis around the world, but mostly in the USA and Canada... 😉
You can go to a state school for a discount, and if your parents are poor you can get government financial aid on top of that (check for your state). If they are rich maybe they saved the money for you
Yeah, dunno about that one chief. Defo worth it if you want to go into tech, all my friends who studied comp sci are far ahead. Physics degree can get you far as well, with more options perhaps.
these take always seemed short sighted from me when people who aren’t software developers say this. Yea I think computer science degrees especially nowadays are outdated but its because of the course work they take rather than it being a waste of money. Telling someone to “just go to a bootcamp bro” or something similar is misguided when software engineering has more complex parts that colleges introduce you to. Unless you have already massive interest in the field and know what part you want to dedicate yourself to then yea dont go to college because you will more broadly know what it is you need to learn to get a job. If you have no experience and haven’t worked on software ever college at least gets you on a track to develop yourself into a better programmer and gives you the tools to network and find people with common goals and interests. Other than that leading people down a leet code and javascript mindset is kinda misguided because there is more in software engineering to learn to make you more competitive than just this.
TLDR; if you’re going to be self taught learn things at a deeper level to not be disposable like most people who got axed the only truth is tech is secure and well paid for those who put in the effort snd passion into mastering it
I got ze 4-year sheepskin, back when it was affordable, but... I'm good with any trend that puts downward pressure on the *absurd and baseless hyper-inflation* in college tuition! Well, it's not totally baseless, like ALL inflation, it comes back to Fed.Gov pumping money into a sector (Student Loans, WIOA, etc). NOTHING has gone up in price since 1990 like college tuition! NONE of the core costs (labs, computers, faculty salaries, electricity, etc.) have risen nearly as much. #NotSustainable #StopTheMadness
Wait what?! 🤨
Your information that in the country of Nepal or India a college degree is necessary for any kind of decent job applies to the Philippines also. Over there you can’t even be a McDonalds cashier without a college degree.
😯
why it's always either you have a job or you are getting degree! why not having a part-time job while having a degree and get the benefit from both?
note there is a lot of people doing that
I've been hearing the software field is extremely hard to find a job at now days and people can't even get an interview after thousands of applications. Maybe I'll just get my CDL license and drive trucks which is more physically challenging but the fastest way to start earning close to a 6 figure salary.
🤣. Just get the degree. Education has value in and of itself. It's not a job seeking venture.
@@benzemamumba Costs a lot of money which I don't have.
In France 🇫🇷 it remains very affordable to study computer science
This is nonsense bias 😅 I could say the same regarding every other major… I’m sorry, but as the tech industry advances we will see less of self-taught “engineers”.
We’ve gone from almost exclusive degrees to now many self taught/alternate routes jumping into the industry. Are we then going to start going backwards again?
@@TravisMedia I really hope that the use of the word "engineer" will get properly regulated, like it is in many countries in relation to the traditional engineering. All those "self-educated" are giving software engineering a bad reputation, and it's high time the industry is getting regulated and cleansed of the impostors.
@@vitalyl1327 How would you differentiate software engineers and those self-taught who are in the industry?
@@TravisMedia how it's done in medicine, in civil engineering, damn, even in plumbing - certification by professional standards bodies with a government mandate to regulate. And, yes, ideally a pre-requisite for certification must be a relevant degree - just like you're unlikely to find a self-educated neurosurgeon, although it might be theoretically possible to go that way.
@@vitalyl1327 Of course a neurosurgeon. Of course a civil engineer. Plumbing, no way. Certifications can help, but thousands of plumbers are making big money from being an former apprentice or learning from an uncle. The IT field has spoken and it doesn't require a certification or a degree. It doesn't take a degree to learn front end development or back-end AT ALL. Hundreds of thousands can attest to that and are happy in their positions. There are many software engineering positions a self-taught dev wouldn't land (probably what you speak of and a degree is definitely needed to succeed in) and the truth is, wouldn't want to. Certifications are why you cant be a teacher in the US without taking on tens of thousands in debt just to make 28K a year. (hats off). Bottom line is I don't NEED a degree to do software development. I can learn on my own, or at BootCamp, or at a community college. Other professions, not so. It's just the way it is. "Cleanse" the self-taught devs and there won't be an industry.
Yes, it is, right until you have to solve a real problem and then you are completely lost without it. ;-)
It cost an average of $32000 not $100000 for a 4 year CS degree in Australia, one doesn't have to be in debt to do it, I work full-time to pay it off during the day and study at night, It's a lot of work but it's doable, Now the reason why I opt for this route - a CS degree gives me a solid foundation where I can pivot to any field of IT I want, Software Development, Cybersecurity, Network Engineering, Cloud Computing, Platform Engineering, DevOps Engineering, Machine Learning, Data Science the list goes on, but if someone who wants to go for Software Development specifically, one doesn't need to go to University.
This is also the average for a 4 year degree in the US, this video is just posting extremely misleading information about the data. If you are getting 100k worth of student loan debt for a 4 year bachelors degree, the person made unnecessary decisions to lead towards that debt. For example, as mentioned in this video, out of stage schools do cost on average 27k to attend, but you don't need to go out of state to go to college.
There are good reasons I believe a self taught/bootcamp route make sense to pursue, but the reasons pointed out in this video for a young person that's fresh out of high school they simply don't make sense.
It’s hard to learn software development by yourself and you might not even get a job
You have 7 years of experience, right? I think when you started your journey, it was a bit easier to get a dev job than it is now.
You don’t need to spend 100k+ to get a college degree. You can go to community college, do well, get scholarships and minimize your costs. Your coding boot camps or “certificates” are not really recognized anywhere are they? Or very limited companies/places don’t really recognize them. Plus they teach frameworks or “programming.” Not CS, and CS isn’t programming, nor does it teach you to be a frameworker.
University is still a good choice because whether you like it or not, it’s the de facto way of getting into the system and being another cog in the machine. Universities are still the best way to network, getting in on new groundbreaking research.
It’s kind of misleading to look at college prices without looking at the rate of return on that cost. Average lifetime earnings with any STEM college degree are far higher than high school only, which will far outweigh that 200k. Stats and numbers are so easy to spin if done sloppily (mine in this comment are sloppy too!)
The degree I did (not computer science) taught us how to think, how to problem solve. Not going to get that on an online course. You seem to just be making the argument that computer science is not actually worthy of being taught as a degree? If that is true, I wonder if this is why it may get replaced by AI? Or perhaps the guys who learn it all online will be the ones easily replaced?
I like reading all these comments which appear to have not listened/watched the first part of Travis's video. This is not an absolute recommendation, he even gives explicit reasons as to why this video may not be right for the various person. Navigating the nuances of internet can be tough, but come on....don't come on here and give your tiny/boundaries scenario unique to you. Relax.
Why would I even watch a video that starts out with a deceptive title? I already know that whatever comes next comes from a person who can't be trusted. :-)
The problem is that the video is presenting this route as the better route to attend for the majority of people, which simply isn't true.
True ten years ago when all you needed to be was a javascript kiddie
🤣🤣🤣
The mental damage that the computer science degree has on many students is rarely talked about. It messed up most of my classmates. I don't know if I'm okay either. Took me 5 years to gather the courage to go back for the certificate.
This is true for any stem major really
What did we get in return?
I totally agree with you, I am 45 yrs old, I wasted my time pursuing a college degree and now I have been unemployed for 11 months, I took several courses and certifications which taught me much better than college degree.
the primary thing I'm worried about, is which websites provide decent to good courses that - as long as I put in the proper amount of effort - I could be considered to be competent at; whether that's for job interviews, or even for hobbyist skills. for instance, I've been using the Win32 API w/C++ to 'hack' a game executable recently. I've gotten to the point where I have the game being remotely controlled by this program, with a display using the Console API built into the Win32 API. I think that can at least be considered bordering between a beginning and intermediate student level, wouldn't it? I am serious about learning, but I do kivetch at the thought that I will invest all my time - and some of my money - on courses that will not be worth the investment.
Waw, that's impressive.
You have the mind to be a very good programmer if you study it. Just to learn the patterns and how to actually build things. Seeing other smart people's projects can really help unlock your programming potential.
I spend lots of time on Udemy and ZeroToMastery and of course youtube loll. Udemy has that $40/mo plan that offers an ample collection of courses. My favorite instructor would be Stephen Grider. He is a beast. I learn all my JavaScript (React, Next, TensorFlow, etc..) from him. If you check him out, you will not regret it. ZTM is also a particularly good option to learn modern industry technologies.
Btw, I have a CS degree. I'd say, my vetting of these guys is quite decent.
What is this video. Normally I appreciate the videos you put out into the space as you talka bout interesting topics a lot of tech influencers don't talk about, but this video is just full of dangerous assumptions.
The average cost of a college tuition is 36 thousand dollars as you pointed out with a standard year of an in state tuition, assuming someoen isn't being savvy with going to a community college. Most people are not going to out of state schools, and the perception that people are averaging 100k student loans simply isn't true and mostly being propagated by people who made the active decision to go to a college they could not afford. Assuming you find a job in the industry within a year after graduating at 80k starting price, you already above the median income price most people make in the industry, which very easily can increase to 100k through job hopping and promotions within 10 years. If you paid the standard repayment plan for a 36k loan, the amount of interest you would pay would be around 10 thousand dollars, not double the cost of the loan, because as you pay the loan off you are not just paying off the interest of the loan but also the principle. If you put more down on the loan (which a person with 100k absolutely can do), then the amount on that loan lowers even more. The cost of living and books are things that you have to pay while going to the college, which all should be factors people should consider when choosing which college to go to. It does suck to have low wages while trying to go to college, but this would be a problem for someone that is also going to self taught route as well, and as you stated for self taught developers, you don't go to college for your current cost of living but for your potential earnings after receiving your degree.
Information is available on the internet to consume, but it is vastly more difficult to learn the necessary information online than it is through college.There are videos online that simply do not have a good grasp of the reaility of what you should learn as a self taught developer. Javascript and Python are not the vast majority of software engineering jobs, as most jobs use Java or C#. There is also information that simply isn't going to be on people's radar to learn going the self taught route, which may take them years well into their career to learn if they actually choose to go that route that may hurt their potential in the long term.
Especially in 2023, the one thing that should be taken away from this year is that the overwhelming majority of people trying to go this route will not make it, even when they do everything right. College degrees are the default filter most places use to be able to screen candidates, especially now since the industry is oversaturated at the junior level.
I'm not against peopel going self taught or a bootcamp route as I believe they are a great alternative in some cases where college simply doesn't make sense to pursue, however the reasons in this video are not the reasons I would argue someone not to get a degree. It is literally the path of least resistance in this industry.
TFDusk Agreed!
Very well spoken comment.
Thank you for puting the time and care into showing how dangerous this advice in this video is.
I know that, because I was a guy with just a highschool diploma and tried the self-taught route and lead me to nowhere...
i got the information i wanted at 1:56. 7 minutes saved. thanks
love your videos you are the light for the people for their futures. Amazing.
This guy is a madman 😂
sleepingbee101
This guy is a dangerous madman leading people to bitter disapointment.
With all these layoffs, you're in competition with all these laid-off devs. This seems like bad advice.
My younger sister has a computer science degree. She graduated from the UC Berkeley . She makes enough to get two big houses in Silicon Valley. She is working for apple and has no interest in posting on RUclips.
What an utterly imbecilic post 🤣🤡
This comment was soo funny.
But if I sit and think about it, all this people will not care to post on RUclips...
But how do you get a good job, if employers only accept people with at least a bachelor's?
Most employers don't. Many want at least master's degree AND five years of industry experience or PhD. The safe bet is the PhD. It also gives you a lot more confidence.
@@lepidoptera9337 nonsense. A regular tech job would require a Bachelor's degree all that Masters and PHD stuff is a lie.
@@benzemamumba A regular tech job is not a career. It will stay a regular tech job for the rest of your life. You will soon be working for a PhD who is ten or twenty years younger than you. Don't believe me? It happened to me. I was the PhD in that unfortunate relationship but after a year I made more than the guy made after 25 years on the job. I really liked the guy, too, and even wrote a letter to our bosses to have his pay grade upgraded. He deserved it but was caught in a bunch of HR rules that kept him down in the boons, despite his obvious experience and achievements.
you need knowledge/training, experience and projects. If you can manage those with the help of Pluralsight,Coursera etc than why to waste 4 years ? I just realized that i want to specialize in Cyber Security and I can do it all online. I dont have time for a uni. It is amazing that now you can do it!
How can someone learn cybersecurity online
Your problem is that you you associate education with getting a job. 🤦
Sadly You did not speak on the importance of certs in this field if one chooses not to follow a degree path...
Aside from my one CS cert I got for free just by going to a trade school that was offering free enrollment before age 20 I'd say that college is a huge waste of time when you realize that a majority of the classes aren't even really necessary for programming, they're just huge time sinks, and you can learn just as much if not more theory for CS online for free now, and with technology rapidly expanding with things like AI by the time you get done with college you'd still be behind because most colleges maybe only teach you about AI before 2022 and possibly touch on chatGPT where its easier than ever to learn from home even without the latest GPU processors. This is also coming from someone who only recently got back into programming after dropping out of community college and taking an almost 6 year hiatus.
No. Reading and learning on your own is NOT the same as college. What separates Self Taught from a College graduate is assessments and evaluations. You think that you know something until you are tested on it.
Here in South America we dont need to pay for a Computer Science Engineering Degree, its true the classes are going to be kind of poor Tech but at the end of the day its about skill, knowledge and efficiency and not how expensive your computer is, so taking into consideration here is FREE, is it worth it in this continent? Tho i must say the only con is that its 5 YEARS of college, which i dont know if it is good or bad
@TravisMedia I'm so sorry watching someone like you to encourage people not go for studying in universities, and more than that, because of your very insane reasons. I'm just very happy the top comments here are not agree with you.
@OtherPeopleReadingThis The whole internet (specially RUclips) is full of junks like this one. Please don't accept something just because a RUclips-er with many million subscribers is saying this; just think about what you may hear.
The US is 1.7trillion dollars in student loan debt, an average of $37,000 a person. People carry that burden through the majority of their working years. Software Development is a career that can be attained by taking on 0 of that debt. I'm not sure what the insane reasons are here?
It's extremely terrible advice.
Get degree even if it is time of waste
Company are insane nowadays you won't even get interviews
20 years in IT with certs and get denied for job interviews because I don't have a degree. Starting back to school in a month.
That's a smart move. It's never too late to make the right decision! 👊🏻
My biggest concern is that I have really bad ADHD, I struggle to maintain information, comprehend things, and push myself to do things. Software Dev is something I really want to get into, but I am scared that I won't be able to do it due to not being able to learn all that well.
So what are you saying exactly? All should not have a CS degree if they want to pursue a career in coding but instead be self taught? There has to be a standard which everyone must follow. CS degree is a way of declaring your seriousness and getting formal review by persons who are acceedited to do so. This is why people who are from ivilgue university are better off than people who have graduated from average university. I understand your point but a CS degree is not just computer science focused. My opinion is that everyone in this day and age must at least have a degree at a minimum.
Might as well go for EE and specialize in Electronics. My brother have that and can be easily hired for Software position and Hardware position
@@angkhoa1216 Electronics Engineers have some the worst software training. Their code is mind numbingly horrendous.
Going to college to double major in Physics and Computer Sciences. I'm going for physics anyway might as well double major 🤷🏾♂️.
I freaking envy you. Physics is dope!
@@benzemamumba Yeah I love it. I’m going to point out that I’m taking a competency based CS bachelor program to get my CS degree in 6 months through WGU. It doesn’t have to be a binary option. The course is $4000. AND THEY ACCEPT FINANCIAL AID!!! So I’ll complete that and go for my masters in physics.
5:40 Indecision - I think this is the main issue with degrees (in any field), even if it isn't the degree's fault. You don't really have the time to think what you really want.
1 year of self-study does not equate to the 5 or more years of experience often required to subvert a college degree requirement in the industry.
I have a 4-year degree in IT and even then, it's hard to transition to Computer Science because of the training and education I haven't had.
I agree with Forbes, at least with a degree you don't have to sacrifice 4 years of your life being miserable, working for a crap company that will often under pay you well beyond what would have been made had you been at an employer that's willing to pay more for an educated applicant.
This guy profits off of selling online cs related information. His opinions might be biased…
can you please comment what is the real story regarding being able to work remotely? How prevalent is it? Are there particular companies, subject matter, and technologies that are more allowed? If someone's sole objective is working remotely is that easy, medium difficult or more difficult? Or anything else you think is important to mention. thanks
Not really relevant in Sweden where u get money for studying. It doesn't cost anything and you get study allowance to be able to pay rent and food. A smaller part, like $400/month, u actually GET and you the rest, approx. $1200, is a loan with very low interest.
Those random courses you mentioned wouldn't be part of CS-programs. Usually a program is very well thought through with things building on top of each other.
However, I agree that CS is something that can be self-taught very well and you can focus on exactly what u wanna learn. I personally find it much easier with motivation when I study something simply 'cause I want to, rather than have to. Ofc, u choose the Uni-program, but u can still feel like u "have to" study those courses, despite choosing the program.
Computer Science can NOT be self taught...programming however can be.
Well I just graduated May 2023 with Computer Science and Engineering degree…
Congrats!
I had no choice to opt out of college because I didn't see myself doing otherwise!