Half life source's HECU ai vs Black Mesa's
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- Comparing the ai from both games decided to make a vid of my own gameplay to clear some questions and add new thoughts from an older video • Half-Life vs Black Mes... in 2013. After the 1.0 Update the ai has been really fun to fight against I would argue more so than the original but you could look for yourself.
0:00 Half Life source
4:32 Black Mesa 
Игры
0:00 Half Life source
4:32 Black Mesa
I don't really think showing black mesa's original level is right, because they changed most of the levels to contain scripting and other things like that.
We Got Hostiles is such an important level from a game design perspective, being the first level where the player is introduced to the marines and their A.I.. So the decision for the Black Mesa devs to change the AI but faithfully recreate the level is a little perplexing to me. We Got Hostiles in Half Life 1 always felt to me like it was built from the ground up by Valve as a tutorial for the Marine AI: where the open metal walkways and enclosed narrow spaces throughout the level subtly tutorialize the grunt AI's run-stop-shoot-run rhythm, and gives the player plenty of openings to close the gap and kill individual grunts when they running along predictable paths. The fact that you're outnumbered and are fighting for the high ground gives the player the sense that they're the underdog, but the player has the actual advantage in the fight because the marines are constantly exposing themselves just to fire back. By the time HL1 raises the stakes and introduces more difficult combat encounters and HECU enemies, the player largely has grasped the fundamentals of the AI and their weaknesses, if only intuitively.
Black Mesa, on the other hand, has Marine AI that's far more relentless. They can move and shoot, move as a team instead of individual agents, and they rely on overwhelming firepower instead of hit-and-run tactics in order to defeat the player. I personally prefer playing against BM's AI, both from a narrative perspective and a mechanical gameplay one (isn't Freeman supposed to be the sneaky, hit-and-run scrappy fighter?). But the level layout of We Got Hostiles gives the Marines not only a ostensible advantage like in HL1, but a pretty massive gameplay advantage too. Instead of running and snaking around the metal walkways looking to get the drop on the player, the Marines instead are largely trying to pin the player from a defensive position and then sending in a small team to close the distance. If a marine needs to move across a walkway, they will strafe and continue firing, and if the player tries to charge through the walkway, the AI will unload on you from multiple directions. If a new player encounters these kinds of odds, they will likely fall back on their training from contemporary FPS games and run to cover and pick off enemies from a distance, which is exactly what the AI wants, and will proceed to flank, frag and flush the player out. Quite frankly, this isn't a tutorial but a trial by fire, and it's downright oppressive for new players. I feel like many new players end up learning all the wrong lessons, face all subsequent combat encounters as defensively as possible, and they finish the game feeling like the HECU are mindless bullshit aimbotters, which I think does a disservice to how interesting they can be to fight.
I feel like where Black Mesa's HECU combat really shines is when the level design allows you to create your own opportunities instead of waiting for them. I feel like the reworked surface missile silo fight in On A Rail is a good example, where you can do some damage with the .50 cal, but you're nudged towards traveling around the missile and nullifying the defensive advantage of the marine bunker. And those opportunities can be created in We Got Hostiles as well, where you can draw HECU out into the open or push HECU out of strong defensive positions and agress. But I feel like the overall design of We Got Hostiles in Black Mesa never lets players know that its even an option, and sometimes actively fights against this playstyle. Unfortunately, this is where I feel like Valve still has Crowbar Collective outclassed , as I feel like Valve has mastered tutorializing new gameplay concepts where the Black Mesa devs can still struggle. But yeah, this was just a roundabout way of saying that the conversation surrounding the HL1 and BM AI has a lot to with the level design and how the player perceives AI.
I think the difference is the crowbar collective assumes players already have played though the original half life so they didn’t feel a need to reintroduce the same concepts
There’s several areas of xen where they introduce new mechanics such as the exploding cactus things and upside down barnacles in a very valve like style
Remember that its a remaster, they don't need to re-introduce the AI and its mechanics really. I think they weren't aiming for that, but still a nice wall of text. No flame.
and its the level that can be skipped with ease
I thought you were gonna put the two in a room and make them fight.
Honestly I understand why they made the Black Mesa HECU look they way they do, they use the experimental Crye CAGE Armor Chassis as their PCV which was made famous by Transformers 2007, they wear high cut MICHs, essentially decked in what would be "high tech tactical garb" for the 2000s. But they still lack that "Grunt Marine" feel that the original HECU had. Rolled up sleeves, cheesy fingerless gloves, etc. I liked the OG HECU for that, and in Black Mesa they just feel like generic soldiers wearing digicam like they just invaded Afghanistan.
That's terrible, because Half-Life takes place in the 90s. They knew enough to model the handgun after the Glock Gen 1 but didn't know enough to give the HECU the VERY 90s-era gear you can see them wearing. The high end Crye gear just looks goofy to be honest.
@@jarvy251doesn’t half life take place somewhere between 2000 and 2003
They don't use high cut MICHs. They use IBH helmets and or proto exfil helmets for next generation helmets such as Maritime and so on. They use UBDU Crye G3 uniforms to replace the T-MOUT they most likely used in the pass which half-life 1 was not supposed to be timed correctly but most likely half-life 1 would've had the T-MOUT instead of the UBDU and even then, Realistically I would disagree why they made them like that. And instead make them wear MOPP suits instead. They are entering hazardous environments after all. But I wouldn't blame the devs. There CPC is most likely actually just a cover and most likely different variant. Under the leather cover is the PCV itself. And most likely the reason why their back of the custom CPC/PCV is because that's where they most likely import the HEV juice to power their suits. and their custom MP5s were most likely actually goofily modified for them.
Why are you lying? They’re not even wearing digicam in Black Mesa, they look almost identical to the OG Marines.
@@jarvy251 The comment above you is wrong, don’t worry about it, I don’t even think he played Black Mesa, the HECU are pretty much as they’ve always been.
Half source hecu ai in my experience is
"sees player"
"goes up close to it"
"shoots rapidly"
It took him twice as long to complete the same area in BM as in HL1. I've played BM twice in normal mode and both times the soldiers feel significantly harder than in HL1. BM in normal mode feels as hard as HL2 hard mode if not harder.
I think a lot of people forget the time frame half life takes place in the late 1990’s and so it doesn’t really make sense for the Black Mesa Hecu grunts to have gear that’s from the modern era like high cut helmets and plated vest witch are way to far ahead and dismisses the fact they are wearing a advance armor system that’s not as simple as Kevlar platting.They should look like what the US military was issuing their marines.
@RedGoldDolfin yes, yes they are.
ALICE suspenders
PANTAC SWAT vest
PASGT
They do look too modern for Black Mesa's era. Also, didn't they advance the year to about somewhere around the early 2000s? Somwhere around 2000 or 2001?
As for the HECU, I guess you can just make the head-canon that they simply get advanced gear, hence why they look too modern in Black Mesa. They are a military force sent into a facilities that could be filled with who knows what from the perspective of HECU, so they gotta use the latest gear to deal with them.
@@Razgriz_01 I refuse to believe it takes place in 2000's, more of 1999/1998, for one reason urban camo was pretty much no longer in service in 2000's
edit: their gear is actually MICH helmets that are in service since 2001 so my bad
@@mariodario1427 no, it was in early 2000, the v-22 osprey that the marines uses was first used in the year 2000.
@@sunshineskystar it's in service longer than that
Honestly i like the HECU designs on half life much better especially when they look more equipped than in black mesa in black mesa they arent wearing any gloves or other necessary equipment like in half life
Honestly it feels like they were unprepared in Black Mesa, They must've had no idea they were gonna fight aliens. They just get desperate and inevitably retreat.
The soldiers in black mesa are a lot beefier and smarter than combine ai in hl2
They are based of combine
Black Mesa have some excellent level design in which the AI works as it should. The Combine AI is never fully used in the retail but it is the same AI. There is a video which on RUclips which discuss and shows how the AI in Half Life 2 operates it is by Levelhead the video is called "How bad are the Combine?" and it starts around 11:00 (not this video).
Well they act like them since they have same animation
@@darobloxster, animation doesnt change an AI, plus the AI was completely rewritten, but yeah, was based of combines. So, they are a lot smarter, faster and deadlier than the combine soldiers
during development the devs said the HECU AI for BM was written from scratch because the Combine AI was “4000+ lines of spaghetti code,” and they were redone to be just over 500 lines in comparison. BM 2012’s release AI was genuinely terrifying to fight, absolutely punishing on any difficulty
I honestly like the Black Mesa HECU Better. They are easier to understand, I also like their designs.
I haven't played Black mesa yet but the original Half Life HECU Soldiers are easy to understand for me I have no trouble fighting them
Same
The designs for the Black Mesa HECU are just based off of modern military BDUs, the designs of the HECU from Half-Life 1 were based off of the United States Urban Warfare Program of the time during Half-Life's development. Minus the red berets which is inaccurate considering Marines don't wear berets irl, unless the HECU was a joint effort between the Army, the Air Force and the Marine Corps since in Half-Life 1 the Apache is used with the Army insignia clearly seen on the side, there are also M35 Cargo Trucks, Abrams and Bradley tanks and F-16 Jets used which further suggests the HECU was a joint operations unit by the time Opposing Force was released.
Although Black Mesa has a mix of Humvees, Cargo Trucks, LAVs, Abrams Tanks, Harriers and Apaches which could mean that Crowbar Collective is implying that the HECU in Black Mesa has more Marine aesthetics than the other branches minus still using berets.
Their design sucks. Bruh like the half life 1 is set in 2000's why the fuck do they wear IBA vest and MICH helmets? They are supposed to wear woodland PASGT and PCV. Black Mrsa ruined the design of hecu.
they fucked their uniforms and gear in black mesa
7:35 Mans was afk
I feel it would be more fair to compare the original half-life's AI to Black Mesa, rather than a rushed and unmaintained port
I made this before I own the original half life. I recently recorded myself playing through this level again in RT if you want change that out.
The original Half-Life and the Source version's AI are more or less the same, I played through "We Got Hostiles" on Source and the grunts pretty much behave like the original.
Half-Life: Source can be Buggy.
Like in the First part where you see HECU Marine and the Scientist says "Rescue at Last! Thank god You're Here!" The HECU doesn't Shoot the Scientist, It targets you Instead...
But in Black Mesa, They fix everything. Everything works, The Ai, The Models, The characters and The maps...
haha good ol' buggy Half Life: Source port... gotta love how the crowbar makes the banging on metal sound on the wooden crates and the weird chrome effect on all metal including the crowbar.... AFAIK there's some issues w/ the physics as well, and possibly the AI. Should've used the original version, but still a good comparison video.
I wish Black Mesa didn’t change the healing and charging station sounds, and personally the original H.E.C.U voices fit better
Edit: but the fight music at 11:13 fits the chaotic nature of the fight, and Black Mesa like a glove
you can mod the old sounds back
...well, at least the glove parts do
Black Mesa HECU is harder to shoot, they always move and take cover, they went to full auto instead of 3 round - burst like half life. And these guys love to spam grenade lol.
My brother is a Marine Corps vet, and he agrees with me that the tactics HECU uses in Black Mesa is more accurate to real-life military. It’s more intelligent and does not go easy on the player, just like marines don’t go easy on their foes nor rush in blindly to get themselves shot.
In half life, 2-3 marines attack and others throg grenade, run and take cover.
They also prioritize other enemies like the Alien Grunt, Gargantua, and Alien Slave(Vortigaunts) over the player, unless it's scripted or there's a bug with GoldSrc when they notice the player in some cases.
7:34 advanced ai
Feels more "realistic." How would a real person act if they were gettig beat over the head by a crowbar at 50 swings a minute? They probably won't be able to do anything.
@@DolphinsAreWeird yes, very realistic. if i was being hit in the head with a crowbar, i would certainly keep my vision forward and my gun raised. it's just so realistic!
@@djusgar, we are talking about AI and not animations. Okay?
They made them unable to do anything on purpose. Otherwise crowbar would be completely useless for HECU
@@DolphinsAreWeird Not even remotely realistic, if someone hits you you're going to try to kill them if you're a trained soldier.
7:39 The hell was it? Rocket?
Yee
bro the tactical HECU unit turned into a bunch of free to play csgo players (they shoot while moving and they are too agressive. btw this comments is "very original")
I think players expect a more engaging combat experience these days, and if you've played Half Life, you know what the HECU are like in that version. So for Black Mesa, the player is introduced to a bigger fighting arena, with Marines that try harder to dodge grenades, and you can clearly hear them shouting orders or actions to one another, which makes then a lot more human. The only frustration I find, is that you have less ammo to play with in Black Mesa, and with the SMG being more accurate close up, Black Mesa is has larger open environment, so it's harder to hose down threats.
don't worry they made up for it by adding a sniper rifle just right click with the magnum and bam you can headshot all the hecu
the joke of the SMG ammo it was to prevent those players who comes from HL1 with the epic 50/250 MP5
but the lame was for the pistol ammo but it wasnt a big deal for me
That's really interesting, thank you!!
I was wondering if you can do about HL2 AI too
maybe
@@-galm4-lonefox857 looking forward to it. *H A V E A V E R Y S A F E D A Y*
@@hankj.wimbleton6272 u 2
I play Half life on mobile and it was a bit difficult and that makes HECU soldier is the most hardest enemy in my mobile gaming career
I died like 10 times in row bc these HECU soldier
Damn bro where you get thaf
Lore of Half life source's HECU ai vs Black Mesa's momentum 100
You can change HECU models to be more realistic with BMCE mod
Now do one with vanilla half life since the ai is different from source
I would but sadly I don't have original version of the game the only thing I have that's close is sven coop but the marine ai in that game have been downgraded you could tell by the lack of grenades they throw which makes me wonder if they even kept the ai at all.
@@-galm4-lonefox857 sven coop enemies are just bullet sponges
idk why they just made every enemy a tank instead of changing their placements or adding more
that way instead of 32 people shooting 1 zombie that has 3000hp it could have felt like an actual firefight
@@thatkerimguy6423 depends on the server and difficulty you are playing on there some servers that don't increase the health but every enemy does double or triple the damage plus making almost every ai have aimbot
Didn’t the HECU in BM use Combine AI at one point or is it still the same?
Before the 1.0 update they added mostly like the combine but with a few tweaks. But now after 1.0 update they act smarter close to fear almost in their design. Not fully perfect but better than combine ai and the original ai we got
@@-galm4-lonefox857 Thanks for telling me!
They do use combine AI, though its been modified for them to make them very painful to kill
@@TheSixteen60 before 1.0 they did but for 1.0 and so on it was rewritten with a little bit of pieces here and there
they are very though compared to the combine, like a lot
Alguien más piensa que gordon se comporta cómo los comandos negros? 🤔
Explícate
make the V20minigun for Brutal Doom v21 Please
Play half life classic
The fact that there is a scientist trying to walk trough a box in the first second just shows who's the winner
Half-Life source is jank
Dont think he does that in actual Half-Life
I like ragdolls.
ayo nice, but before the who asked replies come, just say that i asked
I hope the Half-Life DLCs get put into Black Mesa
there is a remake of blue shift in development for black mesa(the first three chapters are out). opposing force, however, is recieving a remake that won't be using any of black mesa's assets, and will be completely original. both of these are fan made
Black mesa is more intence
I don't even know why i just bought half life source
For Gmod
If it makes you feel better there is a patch online to fix Half Life Source. It plays a lot different than Black Mesa so technically it is a different game.
Were you using some visual mod in BM?
Reshade
@@-galm4-lonefox857 Where can I get it?
@@jakopay you should be able to get it if you type reshade in google or whatever search engine you use or just use this link reshade.me/
@@-galm4-lonefox857 thanks
@Giddalo Binjafo yes almost this is a very old preset of reshade I used to use the one I use now is less bloomy and more clear
5:26
Heuc: SUCK
*Dead*
that made my night
in my experience with both games on hard mode:
the black mesa hecu are reskinned combine soldiers that somehow act worse than the actual combine soldiers, they have horrible vision, can barely traverse the environment, don't know how to engage and enemy behind cover, and are the least intimidating of all. they barely take cover at all and tend to do stupid rushes out in the open, giving you the advantage about 90% of the time. their voices sound awful, rather than grizzled, stereotypical army men that actually feel as if they wanna kill you, they instead are college boys that aren't even old enough to drink yet. the gasmask hecu sound horrible, they scream just as much as the normal ones which sounds very weird considering they have a voice changer. overall, these guys suck and i barely found them a threat.
the original hecu actually have competent ai, they're ready for an attack and for someone trying to keep behind cover, if you stay behind cover, they'll rush up to you and gun you down in no time, if you run and gun, they'll shoot you in your tracks, grenades, snarks, and setting up traps are what can kill them. they take a lot of cover and get in good positions to shoot you and take you down, they also scatter when attacked, so you need to be careful as to not get pinned between 2 of them. their voices sound very good, the ones without the masks have a distinct badass tone to them, they clearly have a big ego, as they're still young, but still intimidating, and the gasmask guys rightfully sound scary, showing you that they take no crap from anybody, not even you. these guys are the best and are definitely the ones that feel like a danger to you, as you're not a superman, you're just a guy with a gun, against the united states marines.
I personally loved their AI and looks but hey whatever suits u
@@JuanCruz-in2bd he stated he played both games... What
Also I am 19 and I can assure you that Half Life 1's HECU marines are better in terms of how they are designed to force you into the combat loop of half life 1 being think, run, shoot, dodge, live; better than black mesa you aren't forced to move much the gernade that the remaining AI threw at you while they were in cover and only 2-4 engage you in face to face combat allowed that loop to work better than what black mesa attempts, irs a good effort but it just misses the mile. Simplistic design makes for more engaging systems, I mean you can look at DOOM 2016 and eternal for that aswell.
The black mesa HECU marines just stand at midrange and rarely force tou out of your safe position
@@MachStarry a modestly skilled player can play the original HL and never even get hit by a marine. Their AI is exploitable if you go at them in an over aggressive manner. For instance, they cannot shoot while moving..This is easily exploited.
No clue what you're talking about with the gas mask soldiers... in Half Life the gasmask grunts don't have a unique voice, they ALL sound like they're talking through a potato mic, as far as I know. Don't get me wrong, I like how they talk, but the gasmask is irrelevant.
I also like the Black Mesa voice lines, it sounds like they REALLY wanna kill me. I also don't understand why the voice changer should mean they should scream less.
Personally, the HECU screaming in Black Mesa was always a little weird to me, but you're not making the right points against it.
The original hecu actually have worse AI but you might think they have better AI since they're way more accurate and deal way more damage.