Gonna get me some more footage soon guys!! Something ive recognised about 458s, the sound they make and the time it takes indicates a higher gear ratio than 100mph. Its likely 120mph max. Electrostars seem to follow a similar method in terms of absolute max speed, but are just much better to accelerate 😂😂 Acceleration specs may be based on TOC requirements combined with manufacturers making the product for the TOCs liking (well that can be the case).Most, if not all SWR trains are slow before the 707s/701s. So i wonder if it was required by SWR or the DfT for that to be the case? Idk.
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 you are reading way too much into this. I've spent the last year working at a train manufacturing company and they really don't consider the timetable whatsoever in the design of trains. They just do whatever the customer specifies. Smooth acceleration? No this is controlled by CCU digitally, it has nothing to do with the gearbox. My suggestion to you is to look at the engineering side of vehicle design, rather than your half-baked trainspotter interpretation of what you would like the reason to be.
@@ItsYa165 This was an informative comment, thanks! I'm not really an engineer so I don't generally speculate on this kind of stuff but it's fascinating to hear it from someone who knows what they're talking about :)
@@ItsYa165 fair point, im mentioning this based on the specs that apparent TOC requirements that can potentially be based on timetable not that the manufacturers are making the requiremens . So whatever limits acceleration via software is also based at times be based on TOC (customer) requirements as to how they want it built i assume? , unless im wrong there too. This has been mentioned in forums by some people who work with TOC companies, including southern and swr. The part about gearbox was me describing a possible factor in why it sounds super low pitch with the given speeds it runs at (maybe i should have specified that more) But at the same time as you said its also controlled by other variables, but given that im not aware of all variables i don't mention them, only the factors that "may" Contribute it. But thanks
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 I've got a TOC specification. You see it's the manufacturer who makes the offer of a train on their portfolio first that the customer agrees to and then makes specific requirements. The traction system came long before the train was built, and it usually always does and the customer wants it for their service. Whether that's SWT or DfT, it's all the same process. The manufacturer has no concern for what the train is being used for, they simply supply the technology they have agreed upon.
@@ItsYa165 yeah that makes sense id have thought it to be that way, i assume the TOCs decide how they want the train to run in terms of its service pattern sometimes? . Meaning they get what THEY ask for with whats available or can be tweaked at times? Yean id assume the systems exist beforehand, but i assume because of TOCs specs it dictates how the manufacturers design the specific units overall to be controlled/powered? I.e if the train was said to be required for 750 volts (or lower it would seem for SWT back in those times) then I guess the manufacturers would have to tweak the system to operate on those specs ( as some TOCs have more specific requirements it seems from what ive heard) apparently junipers had major issues when first entering service too.
I thought they would have regeared the traction motors, guess not. (kinda a shame since it would be cool to have the bassy 460 sound back). Shame about the accel
The thing is, they did regear it. As The motor/gear sound takes longer to hit a given speed vs the /5s. They sound like they are geared more towards 110mph or 115mph. The problem here...is that SWR seem to have forgotten to RE POWER THEM for DUTY!! and its not like they cant give them more juice, because of course they can. Electrostars are a PERFECT example of a train that is basically the same weight and configuration as a juniper (4 cars , 80 to 82 metres long, weighing 160+ tons) aint no excuse for them to be this slow. Seriously. If power was an issue, they could have geared them to 90mph and have them push a further 10mph to hit 100mph this means theyd have a lower gear ratio that can still hit speed a bit faster. But man its disappointing so far, ill get more footage soon and see if it isnt any better. its like SWR took the train and hacked the software specs to deliberately reduce the power?!?! Theres no way this train was that slow when they first ordered them in the late 90s. Its practically impractical (lol) for anything. Its like taking a class 387 and only accelerating in notch 2, as opposed to notch 4 power. Thats how it performed. Perhaps the driver wasnt going all that hard. I dont know tbh.
Hey bro, ive just realised why these are slow at first Basically i did some digging Class 458s have the same gear ratios as 460s and 460s are said to have 125mph gear ratio due to slow steady express standards for acceleration they were also based on loco /slam door acceleration timetables (which i find rediculous for a moderm era EMU) So slow at the start and then steady and continuous at mid to high speeds. Ive actually caught the 458/4 hitting 60 and between 50 and 60mph they are pretty consistent. Meaning the 120mph gear ratio hypothesis is likely true. Its also mentioned in rail forums about the 460s. Its probably the same practice they were doing for electrostars as a standardised method of trying to make motors. Electrostars are capable of 120mph if not limited by software, the gear ratio covers a long range of speed. So yeah 458s are probably geared (highly likely when you listen to the motor and how long it takes to reach speed ) to 120+mph. Only issue is the TCU dont allow them to accelerate fast off the mark like electrostars. So the 458s are probably 0.52m/s² with peak acceleration vs electrostars at 0.62m/s² at the start and mid speed points. The 458s also act like reduced speed electrostars. Weird. Meaning they could have more power given to them as they weigh the same as electrostars.
Yh , they are smooth, the seats look even better, the suspension is even better now that the dampers have beem re attatched. Only issue THE ACCELERATION SUCKS 😭🤦♂️😭 and no i don't care that they are express units now, at least give them the same acceleration as 377/6s in 10 car formation...idek how long they'll take now to hit 60mph..maybe 90 seconds. 444s for example only accelerate skow because they are too heavy, class 458s are not. I think i know the issue. They were ordered way back when the DC supply was really bad in the early 2000s, so im not suprised that they are software capped to hit speed so poorly. But again SWR can easily have them modified. Time will tell again, maybe theyll be improved or maybe the driver was holding back
Nice!! And thanks for subscribing, I also agree, the SWR livery is cool on these units. Im going to try and find some class 458/4s again and film in future. Also feel free check out my channel for more performance vids of UK trains ;^)
Yeah, I’ve always noticed how much of a drag the 100mph 458s are, but when they’ve picked up speed, they’re quite fast ngl. I really hope they chuck them on the Portsmouth services, after all the 701s come through because they’re too good for metro services
Its temporary, theyll join Portsmouth once the 701s join also i do think the 458s probably will pick up speed. Its just a weird thing they accelerate really slow off the mark. Idk if the driver was holding back though
They were probably holding back. as part of the conversion, they are re-geared, and had yaw dampers fitted that were removed in the 458/0 100mph -> 458/5 70mph conversion. All these stuff probably need a bit of time to bed in, so they are taking it easy on the early notches, to acoid too much stress ont he parts?
@@JanoJ(apologies for the long reply , but i was intrigued by what you said) lets hope so, i was speculating that too. Its entirely possible theyve been power restricted temporarily, or drivers holding back. They are still just being re done and so you may be right. With regards to gear ratio, the way the gear box/motor sounds, its likely geared up to 85mph as opposed to 75mph (as stated on wiki that they are 75mph) but cant achieve 85mph due to limited power on the /5s and no lateral dampers (which may lead to catastrophic outcomes if they ever did try to hit 85mph due to stability physics) the way they sound now, the traction is so deep sounding it may actually be geared to 110mph but rated at 100mph, this explains the weak starting acceleration combined with the lack of power it takes up. Apparently their traction system is one used for a tram and is limited via that also. Doesent mean it probably cant be altered to take up more power at mid to higher speeds. Class 458s are supposed to have a total output of 1620kw as the motors are at least rated at 270kw. But on DC power should at least be nearer 1200kw output for any decent acceleration. This is due to them being similar in weight to electrostars and electrostars use something like 1200kw to 1300kw on DC per 4 car set. I speculate if class 458s could output at 60kw to 80kw more power per 4 car unit, theyd have decent continuous acceleration. Maybe 70 seconds to 60mph, thats a good metric imo. At the moment they seem to take like 80 to 90 seconds to 60mph. Im guessing anyways. Only time will tell to be fair. Theres no way SWR are comfortable operating with such appauling acceleration. They could have had it geared to lower gear ratio threshold nearer 90 or 95mph and push them 5 to 10 extra mph to hit 100mph. This means less power for starting acceleration as the gear ratio is in a lower speed range but has enough reach to hit 100mph still.
😮@@JanoJits limited by software/hardware as ive been told. It can in theory be quicker. It also seems to have a higher gear ratio set up than its max speed. So that slightly contributes to steady acceleration.
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 As far as I know (having read this on a older site, which may be incorrect) that it was the class 460s that were geared for 125mph, despite only running at most 90mph, for it to be smoother. the 458/0s were deifnately geared for 100mph, with both being re-geared for 75, and the yaw dampers taken away on the 5 car conversion. the ex 460 vehicles are not being converted to 458/4 and are going to be scrapped.
They didn't really mean it. Lol it was likely until the 701s entered but 701s arent available yet. So we have these. Then these will get moved to mainline after 701s enter service.
Fantastic Video! Super LIKE!
@@Thomas1980 thanks man. Will make pt 2 soon
Good stuff! Nice meeting you at Twickenham!!
@@theaventra yeah man you too!! Itd be cool if we end up doing the same thing again and bumping into each other.
Feel free to check out my vids. ;^)
Gonna get me some more footage soon guys!!
Something ive recognised about 458s, the sound they make and the time it takes indicates a higher gear ratio than 100mph. Its likely 120mph max. Electrostars seem to follow a similar method in terms of absolute max speed, but are just much better to accelerate 😂😂
Acceleration specs may be based on TOC requirements combined with manufacturers making the product for the TOCs liking (well that can be the case).Most, if not all SWR trains are slow before the 707s/701s. So i wonder if it was required by SWR or the DfT for that to be the case? Idk.
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 you are reading way too much into this. I've spent the last year working at a train manufacturing company and they really don't consider the timetable whatsoever in the design of trains. They just do whatever the customer specifies. Smooth acceleration? No this is controlled by CCU digitally, it has nothing to do with the gearbox. My suggestion to you is to look at the engineering side of vehicle design, rather than your half-baked trainspotter interpretation of what you would like the reason to be.
@@ItsYa165 This was an informative comment, thanks! I'm not really an engineer so I don't generally speculate on this kind of stuff but it's fascinating to hear it from someone who knows what they're talking about :)
@@ItsYa165 fair point, im mentioning this based on the specs that apparent TOC requirements that can potentially be based on timetable not that the manufacturers are making the requiremens . So whatever limits acceleration via software is also based at times be based on TOC (customer) requirements as to how they want it built i assume? , unless im wrong there too. This has been mentioned in forums by some people who work with TOC companies, including southern and swr.
The part about gearbox was me describing a possible factor in why it sounds super low pitch with the given speeds it runs at (maybe i should have specified that more) But at the same time as you said its also controlled by other variables, but given that im not aware of all variables i don't mention them, only the factors that "may" Contribute it. But thanks
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 I've got a TOC specification. You see it's the manufacturer who makes the offer of a train on their portfolio first that the customer agrees to and then makes specific requirements. The traction system came long before the train was built, and it usually always does and the customer wants it for their service. Whether that's SWT or DfT, it's all the same process. The manufacturer has no concern for what the train is being used for, they simply supply the technology they have agreed upon.
@@ItsYa165 yeah that makes sense id have thought it to be that way, i assume the TOCs decide how they want the train to run in terms of its service pattern sometimes? . Meaning they get what THEY ask for with whats available or can be tweaked at times? Yean id assume the systems exist beforehand, but i assume because of TOCs specs it dictates how the manufacturers design the specific units overall to be controlled/powered? I.e if the train was said to be required for 750 volts (or lower it would seem for SWT back in those times) then I guess the manufacturers would have to tweak the system to operate on those specs ( as some TOCs have more specific requirements it seems from what ive heard) apparently junipers had major issues when first entering service too.
I thought they would have regeared the traction motors, guess not. (kinda a shame since it would be cool to have the bassy 460 sound back). Shame about the accel
The thing is, they did regear it. As The motor/gear sound takes longer to hit a given speed vs the /5s. They sound like they are geared more towards 110mph or 115mph.
The problem here...is that SWR seem to have forgotten to RE POWER THEM for DUTY!! and its not like they cant give them more juice, because of course they can. Electrostars are a PERFECT example of a train that is basically the same weight and configuration as a juniper (4 cars , 80 to 82 metres long, weighing 160+ tons) aint no excuse for them to be this slow. Seriously.
If power was an issue, they could have geared them to 90mph and have them push a further 10mph to hit 100mph this means theyd have a lower gear ratio that can still hit speed a bit faster. But man its disappointing so far, ill get more footage soon and see if it isnt any better.
its like SWR took the train and hacked the software specs to deliberately reduce the power?!?! Theres no way this train was that slow when they first ordered them in the late 90s. Its practically impractical (lol) for anything. Its like taking a class 387 and only accelerating in notch 2, as opposed to notch 4 power. Thats how it performed. Perhaps the driver wasnt going all that hard. I dont know tbh.
Hey bro, ive just realised why these are slow at first
Basically i did some digging
Class 458s have the same gear ratios as 460s and 460s are said to have 125mph gear ratio due to slow steady express standards for acceleration they were also based on loco /slam door acceleration timetables (which i find rediculous for a moderm era EMU) So slow at the start and then steady and continuous at mid to high speeds. Ive actually caught the 458/4 hitting 60 and between 50 and 60mph they are pretty consistent. Meaning the 120mph gear ratio hypothesis is likely true.
Its also mentioned in rail forums about the 460s.
Its probably the same practice they were doing for electrostars as a standardised method of trying to make motors. Electrostars are capable of 120mph if not limited by software, the gear ratio covers a long range of speed.
So yeah 458s are probably geared (highly likely when you listen to the motor and how long it takes to reach speed ) to 120+mph. Only issue is the TCU dont allow them to accelerate fast off the mark like electrostars. So the 458s are probably 0.52m/s² with peak acceleration vs electrostars at 0.62m/s² at the start and mid speed points. The 458s also act like reduced speed electrostars. Weird. Meaning they could have more power given to them as they weigh the same as electrostars.
I've always liked the 458s. They are smooth and comfortable, even in /5 spec.
Yh , they are smooth, the seats look even better, the suspension is even better now that the dampers have beem re attatched. Only issue
THE ACCELERATION SUCKS 😭🤦♂️😭
and no i don't care that they are express units now, at least give them the same acceleration as 377/6s in 10 car formation...idek how long they'll take now to hit 60mph..maybe 90 seconds. 444s for example only accelerate skow because they are too heavy, class 458s are not. I think i know the issue. They were ordered way back when the DC supply was really bad in the early 2000s, so im not suprised that they are software capped to hit speed so poorly. But again SWR can easily have them modified.
Time will tell again, maybe theyll be improved or maybe the driver was holding back
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 The driver was probs holding back as the 458/4s are said to have improved acceleration VS 458/5
@@SolomonClarkeTrains-nw1sf thats what i was assuming
@@SolomonClarkeTrains-nw1sf yeah man, id hope so tbh
@@SolomonClarkeTrains-nw1sf incoming 377 4 car accel vid solomon stay tunes !! ;^)
Great video i love 458 i like new lively and just subscribe to your channel
Nice!! And thanks for subscribing, I also agree, the SWR livery is cool on these units. Im going to try and find some class 458/4s again and film in future.
Also feel free check out my channel for more performance vids of UK trains ;^)
@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 okay will do I wish scotrail had 458 trains and more different trains up here
@@ghighlandchieftain4462 indeed, 334s sound amazing too with their traction equipment.
Also I recently uploaded an Electrostar video today.
@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 yeah, I totally agree 334 do have amazing moter sound
@@ghighlandchieftain4462 yeah man glad you agree!
Yeah, I’ve always noticed how much of a drag the 100mph 458s are, but when they’ve picked up speed, they’re quite fast ngl. I really hope they chuck them on the Portsmouth services, after all the 701s come through because they’re too good for metro services
Its temporary, theyll join Portsmouth once the 701s join also i do think the 458s probably will pick up speed. Its just a weird thing they accelerate really slow off the mark. Idk if the driver was holding back though
They were probably holding back. as part of the conversion, they are re-geared, and had yaw dampers fitted that were removed in the 458/0 100mph -> 458/5 70mph conversion. All these stuff probably need a bit of time to bed in, so they are taking it easy on the early notches, to acoid too much stress ont he parts?
@@JanoJ(apologies for the long reply , but i was intrigued by what you said) lets hope so, i was speculating that too. Its entirely possible theyve been power restricted temporarily, or drivers holding back. They are still just being re done and so you may be right. With regards to gear ratio, the way the gear box/motor sounds, its likely geared up to 85mph as opposed to 75mph (as stated on wiki that they are 75mph) but cant achieve 85mph due to limited power on the /5s and no lateral dampers (which may lead to catastrophic outcomes if they ever did try to hit 85mph due to stability physics) the way they sound now, the traction is so deep sounding it may actually be geared to 110mph but rated at 100mph, this explains the weak starting acceleration combined with the lack of power it takes up. Apparently their traction system is one used for a tram and is limited via that also. Doesent mean it probably cant be altered to take up more power at mid to higher speeds.
Class 458s are supposed to have a total output of 1620kw as the motors are at least rated at 270kw. But on DC power should at least be nearer 1200kw output for any decent acceleration. This is due to them being similar in weight to electrostars and electrostars use something like 1200kw to 1300kw on DC per 4 car set. I speculate if class 458s could output at 60kw to 80kw more power per 4 car unit, theyd have decent continuous acceleration. Maybe 70 seconds to 60mph, thats a good metric imo. At the moment they seem to take like 80 to 90 seconds to 60mph. Im guessing anyways.
Only time will tell to be fair. Theres no way SWR are comfortable operating with such appauling acceleration. They could have had it geared to lower gear ratio threshold nearer 90 or 95mph and push them 5 to 10 extra mph to hit 100mph. This means less power for starting acceleration as the gear ratio is in a lower speed range but has enough reach to hit 100mph still.
😮@@JanoJits limited by software/hardware as ive been told. It can in theory be quicker. It also seems to have a higher gear ratio set up than its max speed. So that slightly contributes to steady acceleration.
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 As far as I know (having read this on a older site, which may be incorrect) that it was the class 460s that were geared for 125mph, despite only running at most 90mph, for it to be smoother. the 458/0s were deifnately geared for 100mph, with both being re-geared for 75, and the yaw dampers taken away on the 5 car conversion. the ex 460 vehicles are not being converted to 458/4 and are going to be scrapped.
Wait how did you catch this train I thought they weren’t using the /4
They didn't really mean it. Lol it was likely until the 701s entered but 701s arent available yet. So we have these. Then these will get moved to mainline after 701s enter service.
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 Oh Ok that makes sense. What about the remaining class 458/5s will they be staying till the class 701 is in service?
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 I thought some 701s were already in service and are the amount of 455s not enough?
@@TrainLifeSWR they are going to get taken out of service and refirbished over time
@@gapthemind--mindthegap8524 Oh Ok makes sense tbh the /4 carriages look so similar to the 460 carriages. You’d never think they were removed.