Ned and Ashara = Jon theories 25 Days of Winds of Winter Episode 24
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Hey guys hope you all enjoyed this video! in this one we go over the Ned and Ashara equals Jon theories
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Jon’s story feels much more connected to the Daynes than the Targaryen’s.
How so? If I remember correctly from the text, there are no dornish mentioned at the wall. He never goes back to Dorne, never talks about the Daynes etc. He literally meets and befriends a Targaryen, notably pretended to be the Dragonknight as a child and his “father” has multiple associations with Rhaegar in throughout his only book.
@0bskureference The Lord Commander before Mormont was a Qorgyle. And when Nymeria conquered Dorne, six Dornish kings she defeated were sent to the Wall.
None of them are currently at the Wall though when Jon is. I could see more of an association with Jon as a successor to Sword of the Morning concept, in that he is a worthy hero fighting for “justice” but not with House Dayne itself or Dorne. Dorne is most likely Jon’s birthplace and he may have been milk brothers with a High Hermitage Dayne, but I don’t realistically see a situation where he goes that far south or is even descended from them. The cleverness in what GRRM is doing with “Dawn” and “Sword of the Morning” references is to make us think of a storied hero but as we have seen time and again in the story, heroes hardly live up to their legends and the stories never end well. At least that’s my understanding
@@blaubeer8039okay, Jon in that sequence is talking about the stars in the sky, and I think he also mentions other stars in that sequence. In the very same book, the tale of Bael the Bard, which reminisces the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna very much is mentioned. There’s a lot more evidence for R+L = J than there is for N + A = J
@@0bskureference Jon gets more mentions of Dawn (the sunrise, not the sword) than anyone else. Jon leads three against seven. There is NOTHING in Jon's arc about dragons, and his only link to the Targaryens is Aemon. His story is about Winterfell, and choosing duty.
Ironically, Jon and Aemon are kin regardless since Aemon's mother was a Dayne.
1) dragons don't have wolf dreams 2)is Ned so good at the game that he can lie in the middle of a heated argument with your wife 3)Jon looks like Ned, the books say this countless times, we know Gendry is "Roberts son cause he looks just like him 4) Based on Rhaygar"s naming of his kids the third child should be a girl just like Aegon the conquerer. 5) Jon's life mirrors Ned's life. both die doing what they think is right, both don't get to be with their first love both lose their father which starts a war. So yeah i think n+a=j
Well the first thing is not something you can confirm. There has never been a combination of Stark and Targaryen before (possibly) Jon. Secondly, Ned would be able to lie to his wife and everybody else because he promised his sister to (possibly protect Jon) Ned thinks to himself in the first book “Some secrets are better kept hidden, even from those you love” Ned also saw how Robert would treat offspring of Rhaegar and other Targaryens, when the corpses of Aegon and Rhaenys were presented to him in the throne room. Thirdly, Jon looks like The Starks, both Ned and Arya. Arya is said to look like Lyanna and be very like her. We also see that Targaryens, when mixed with other houses, may not look like a Targaryen. We see it with Rhaegar’s daughter Rhaenys, black of hair. Princess Rhaenys, the Queen who never was, was dark of hair as well.
Fourthly, we do not know what Jon’s Targaryen name was. Maybe Rhaegar expected Jon to be a girl, or maybe he didn’t, the important thing was for him to have another legitimate Targaryen, but his wife, due to her delicate health, could not provide him another child. Jon’s life does not mirror Ned’s life that much. Jon is a bastard, Ned is a legitimate member of House Stark. Jon goes to the Wall, Ned becomes the Lord of Winterfell. Jon becomes the Lord commander of the Nights Watch. There are details that align, but they are different in a lot of ways.
@@All.Westeros I agree we will never know George won't finish the books. But in a fight with someone you are in a relationship with you don't plan what you say. Things are just said in the heat of the moment. Like how Cat didn't say anything about Jon's mother, Ned just inferred it in the heat of the moment.
I don't know about your family but in mine, kids look like their parents. Arya reminds Ned of his sister because of her temperament.
Now this is my opinion, but the Tower of Joy is the broken-down tower in Winterfell that Bran climbs on, and Dany is Rhaygar's daughter. This is why Benjin is sent to the Wall, why Blackfish leaves the Tullys, and why people think Ashara has a daughter. it also explains the house with the little red door.
@@robertkillian2418 Well, they were talking about Lady Asharra because Catelyn overheard the fact that Ashara is Jon's mother. In the situation she asked Ned, about that. The context is important, because Catelyn overheard it and asked Ned, who then told her to never ask about Jon
Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna both in looks and in spirit. In AGOT he says when he talks about how Arya is like Lyanna and his older brother Brandon "You even look like her"
Your opinion is creative and fascinating but it just doesn't make sense. Why would Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswald Whent be at Winterfell? And how would Dany be the daughter of Rhaegar? She was on Dragonstone and born after Rhaegar died, would Rhaegar impregnate his own mother? I know the Targaryen's are incestrious but come on.
@@All.Westeros They would be there because Rhaygar had left Lyanna. Rhaygar thinks he is fulfilling a prophecy. he needs her protected. what did Benjin do to get sent to the wall by his brother? Ned would have needed him for marriage alliances
Cat never brings up Jon in this fight we keep talking about. Ned does because that is Jon's mother. Plus Cersie the most informed lady in Westeros thinks Jon is Ned and Ashara's child.
how do you explain the red door from Danny's dreams? Why is Quath always telling Danny to remember who You are? It is because she is the secret Targaryen. Targaryen's have such a unique look you could only disguise one as another Targaryen. Plus how does a newborn without a mother survive all that travel?
To me, with all the unreliable narration this makes more sense. R+L=D, N+A=J
Now like I said my theory about where the Tower of Joy is was crackpot.
@@robertkillian2418 Rhaegar left Lyanna with Ser Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswald Whent. He described in his fever dream that they were in the red mountains of Dorne, at the tower of joy. Benjen might have gone to the nights watch out of his own will, or he knew the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna from the start, and didn’t tell Ned, Brandon or Lord Rickard.
Secondly, Catelyn does not directly bring up Jon but you need to understand the context. On page 62 of AGOT, Catelyn thinks to herself (Regarding Jon and Ned)
"He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him `Son´ for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. `Never ask me about Jon´ he said, cold as ice. `He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name my lady”
Catelyn does not directly bring up Jon, but she says Ned would not speak of the mother, but that a castle had no secrets, and rumours of The Lady Ashara Dayne started spreading around. She asked Ned if Ashara was Jon’s mother. Ned didn’t just bring it up randomly.
And Cersei isn’t the most informed woman in Westeros, she only knows what is going on in The red keep and Kings landing. And that is only what Varys and her own little birds tell her. And Cersei does not only use Ashara as a possibility but also other women as well. On page 470 of AGOT Cersei says “`Honor´she spat. `How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?”
The red door in Dany’s dreams is literally from a house in Pentos she remembers. Maybe Quathe tells Dany to remember who she is because she’s the last known Targaryen in the world, with three dragons. How could she remember something she does not know? And how would Viserys, keep telling Dany of her father Aerys and her brother Rhaegar? She lives with Viserys for so long and Viserys even tells her of how they fled Dragonstone. And a newborn baby can survive without a mother with lot’s of protection and a wet nurse, which we saw Jon had.
This theory just seems more compelling in regard to Jon’s arc and his actual story.
Cat didnt say Jon. She asked about Asharra and Ned said "never ask me about Jon. She hadnt mentioned Jon. Ned made that connection on his own
We never hear what Catelyn says. Don’t try to manipulate the context. Catelyn heard Ashara was the mother of Jon and then asked Ned and Ned then said “never ask me about Jon”
@All.Westeros exactly. Thats what i said. She asked him about Asharra and Ned said "never ask me about Jon. Now lady, ill ask where you heard that name?".
@@liberTvalance Yes, but she asked about Ashara because she heard she was the mother of Jon Snow. The context is important. It wasn't Ned that implied Asharra was the mother out of nowhere, it was in relation to what Catelyn heard.
@@liberTvalance Here is the full sequence so you can understand the context.
On page 62 of AGOT, Catelyn thinks to herself (regarding Ned and Jon)
"He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him `Son´ for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. `Never ask me about Jon´ he said, cold as ice. `He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name my lady”
Catelyn does not directly bring up Jon, but she says Ned would not speak of the mother, but that a castle had no secrets, and rumours of The Lady Ashara Dayne started spreading around. She asked Ned if Ashara was Jon’s mother. Ned didn’t just bring it up randomly.
@All.Westeros bro. If you need r+l to be real that bad then god bless. If you read and didnt think she asked about Asharra then we just read it different. You dont need my agreement. Go in peace and enjoy life.
Barristan remembers that at Harrenhall Tourney Ashara dances with several specific men. A King's Guard. Oberyn Martell. Jon Connington. Brandon and Ned Stark. Barristan wonders if he had unhorsed Rhaegar, would she have looked to him instead of Stark regarding the man who dishonored her at the Tourney. Ashara is "dismissed" around the same time as Lyanna is taken. She was at Starfall, according to the story, when Ned gets there. To me, Ashara was pregnant, and so was sent home. But back to the Tourney. Barristan reflects a couple times about Ashara at the Tourney and when he does, it's like...weirdly specific and vague at the same time. The way he thinks those thoughts AND talks about Rhaegar make me feel like it was either Rhaegar or Aerys that dishounored Ashara at the Tourney. But wait-there's more. The people Ashara dances with, I think she was trying to get help from them-to escape either Rhaegar's or Aerys's attentions. Some kind of communication was happening there-I thought it could be about a plot for Rhaegar to take over but the bigger picture says THIS shit with Ashara and Lyanna is a big part of what distracted Rhaegar from that plotting during the Tourney. Rhaegar tells Jaime he meant to do something sooner-pretty sure THIS is why he didn't act sooner, when he had intended. When Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, the way Brandon FLIPS out makes me think that Brandon blames Rhaegar for whatever is going on with Ashara in some way. Brandon loses his shit from seemingly out of nowhere and so violently. I know, Brandon gets violent-but to me, this display was different behavior for him...I don't know. I'm struggling to explain what I'm thinking. He has reason to be so sus about that crown of flowers. Brandon has to be restrained, Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was way more than a symbolic gesture to Brandon. Ned and Robert, not so much. Though Ned seems to be concerned by Brandon's reaction. Robert laughs...it isn't until later that people color Ned and Robert as being upset. I think Brandon flipped like that because of what Ashara told him when asking for help. He gets wildly upset with Rhaegar for a reason. Jaime reflects how a king has no secrets from his KG while Barristan reflects that Rhaegar had many secrets. It reads like Barristan is trying not to judge Rhaegar sometimes, not just Aerys. Anyways-I thought it was Brandon who prolly got Ashara pregnant-but in my reread, noticing a couple things that I didn't before-I'm pretty sure Ashara was impregnated by Rhaegar or Aerys. I think Brandon staying gone from his tent for that one night had something to do with it. I am not sure exactly what happens to Lyanna, but the book makes me think that Aerys found out that she was the Laughing Tree Knight. He sent men to get her. Rhaegar was either one of the men he sent, or he was trying to intercept Aerys's men and get to her first. Ashara and Lyanna had babies by Rhaegar, Aerys or both. BUT IF Lyanna was pregnant by Aerys-when he finds out his wife died in childbirth, he marries Lyanna, putting her child in line to the throne directly, though I do not think that was his intention. I think Lyanna and her baby were originally intended for a dragon egg hatching ritual. The same might have been originally intended for Ashara. Another reason for the Dayne's undying adoration. Anyways, Aerys marries Lyanna and puts her in a tower or Rhaegar tries to rescue her from Aerys burning her and her baby alive-and so he puts her in a tower. I THINK there is even time enough for Aerys to have impregnated her AFTER his wife dies, but that is really pushing it. It also makes sense why Aerys demands Ned's and Robert's heads, if he actually did that. Ned danced with Ashara as well as being Lyanna's and brother. Robert-he was betrothed to Lyanna. He and Ned are close. It's not just "he has a vague claim to the throne, so he must die" kind or reasoning. Aerys would have went for Renly and Stannis as well if that were true. I have doubts that Aerys demanded their heads-it just doesn't make sense, really. Unless he thinks Ned and Robert know something he doesn't want anyone to know. Otherwise, why ask for thier heads at all? Aerys doesn't ask for any other Stark or Baratheon heads. They don't know anything-though I got the feeling that Ned has an idea that something is wrong at the Tourney. The rumors about Ashara-even the "in family" rumors, are to protect Ashara and her baby's identity. Especially if she is faking the deaths of herself and her baby's. ALL rumors regarding Ned, Ashara, Willa, Fisherman's Daughter, came after the war and after the facts, whatever those facts are. I also get the feeling that Arthur Dayne might not have died either. More reason they are so crazy grateful to Ned when they should hate him. I have a feeling though that Ashara's baby isn't Brandon's or Ned's. I thought Brandon was possible-but not anymore. THAT baby was Rhaegar's likely-MAYBE Aerys's. Also-no way does Ned marries Cat if he was married to Ashara. I'm not arguing, sorry, there's just no way. That timing can't work-and no way does Starfall feel friendly towards Ned after he knocks Ashara up, dipping out, marrying some other chic then killing her brother Arthur, the Sword of the Morning- and so causing her to lose her baby. But hey! He brought the Family sword back, all! Big Hugs! It's more likely he did something that saved their family, in a huge way. The Dayne's having a lie within their family is no different than the Starks having a few within theirs-it doesn't mean that they are true. Ned Dayne believes that Ned loved Ashara to be true for the same reason that Arya believes she and Jon have the same dad to be true. The people involved in the lie are living that lie as if it were the truth. Also-a marriage that produces a baby can't just be annulled. Not in ASOIAF world-unconsumated and bigomy can do it, though-go Sansa! Sorry for typing so much-I hope I made sense. Merry Christmas!!!!!!!
This was fire
Need to get back to this
In the intro viserys sounds like Christmas isn't the only thing that is coming
Hehehehe
Nope.
Howland and Ashara were together at the great tourney.
"Ashara looked to Stark" - The Starks stood up for Ashara and supported her and Howland.
Howland and Ashara are married and hiding out in Greywater Watch.
Meera is the baby she supposedly lost. Then they had Jojen.
Ashara's influence (Dornish) is why Meera speaks as the lead for the family and not Jojen. She is older. Dornes don't care about first born male.
At the Tower of Joy, Howland got Ned and Arthur to calm down because he is the father of Arthur's sister's child and good friends with Ned.
The Daynes stayed loyal to the Targaryens and hid Lyanna. Robert would have ended their house.
So Ned protected the Daynes, detroyed all evidence (tore down the tower), Ashara faked her death, Arthur ended himself for breaking his vows over many years (not acting like a true knight), Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, Jon was nursed there for a while.
The Daynes love Ned because he protected them from Robert by keeping their secret.
Every time Ned does something you have to always look through the lens of, he's doing it to protect Jon.
Everything Ned does is to keep his promise to Lyanna.
ive been around for a hot min. and seeing you get into the thousands of subs makes me smile. wishing success your way.
Thank you for sticking around with me appreciate the support!
ashara>catelyn
No fr tho. I hate the idea that disliking catelyn is “misogyny”… as if anyone wants someone like catelyn in their life lol
True
@@BlifChipz big facts brother
Have you watched the hour long Catelyn sucks series by order of the green hand?
@@andrewschneider2121 yeh having to relive some of those chapters had me fuming
I like this theory, so many things make sense and make the story better
In a way I can kinda see Darkstar being the opposite of Jon. The true born Dayne being a grabber at power (dawn) and Jon the bastard being so humble. I wonder if they may end up having some sort of interaction especially if this is true.
I'm still not sure whether Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, or Ned and Ashara's son. Could it be possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna are actually a red herring? But if that's the case, and Jon IS Ned and Ashara's son, then what was the promise that Ned made to Lyanna?
@dragonlope4666 True. It's an interesting thought though.
The prevailing theory is to look after her son with Rhaegar which people would say Young Griff is actually their son. I don't personal believe that theory it's just the most common answer I have seen to your question.
Ok so is Ashara is Jon’s mom then that means Rhegar kidnapped Lyanna & was planning to what. Marry her or forcing a child with her. Also why wouldn’t the Daynes want to foster Jon at some point since that’s Ashara’s kid. So if Jon is Ashara kid & Ned took him causing Ashara to commit suicide then why do the Daynes respect Ned. There’s so many questions & it really doesn’t make sense if N+A=J. I just hope Winds of Winter comes out cause a lot of these questions you’d think would be answered
Why readers forget that she is a high born lady and a lady in waiting to the princess of dragon stone and her brother is a king's guard she wouldn't sleep around as easily as implied and I suspect that she and her house had ambition like the rest of the great houses at that time so a stark won't be any good for her or her family maybe their eyes was on the royal family, maybe someone spread a rumor that she was dishonored at the tourney to damage her reputation, and the time line doesn't add up at all, and maybe she was assaulted by someone at the red keep or dragon stone that's why Ellia Martell dismissed her and A Big maybe until George reveals what the hell had happened
I am with u on that, but I just wanted to present the Ashara argument without making it a debate lmao
Ned would be lucky
We can all agree on that, m'lord.
If Ned was so damned mean to sweet Ashara, causing her to jump out of the tower, her family would not like him...
The theory goes that she is Septa Lemore, in most cases. Bear in mind that Elia was Ashara's best friend. George also, by his own admission, deliberately avoids giving too much information before the time comes.
N+A=J might not be popular with a lot of people, but I like it not only because it has *much* more contextual evidence than R+A or B+A, but it deepens the human element of Ned's story: it adds a new layer of tragedy to his marrying Catelyn (besides having to do so in his _dead_ brother's place); it strengthens the parallel to Jon choosing his duty to the Watch over his love for Ygritte; it adds a new dimension to Ned pondering what Catelyn would do in Cersei's position; and it has potentially Casterly Rock-sized implications for the ongoing politicking involving his children and the Stark name. It also nicely subverts the R+L=J expectation that's been building in the fanbase for 20+ years; because since when has GRRM ever chosen the simplest solution? (The answer is never; otherwise, the series wouldn't have expanded well past the original planned trilogy.)
But my favorite part of the theory has to be the grand karmic middle finger it throws at Catelyn over her treatment of Jon. Also to Tywin because he managed to one-up Tyrion marrying the commoner Tysha by marrying him off to the (by this theory) bastard Sansa. And Arya's past worry about being a bastard that Jon assured her couldn't be true is proven to be true.
i think the strongest indication that he's Ned's son is that he also has a Direwolf like the rest of Ned's children.
Bran also notes that Ghost’s eyes are open while the other pups’ are not, meaning he’s older than the other five.
@@kahare9565 Ghost also never makes a sound and yet Jon hears him when nobody else did. I think it implies Jon's warg connection with Ghost occurred almost immediately.
I personally have never been a fan of this theory. There are too many gaps in it. Also hinges too much on certain people not being in character. Ned would have known he needed to marry Catelyn. So he would not have wanted to risk that in any case. Maybe you could say he got her pregnant at The Vale. However if she was at the Vale you would think when him and Robert were talking about women Robert would remember the very unique and exotic Ashara Dayne. Plus none of what I've seen about Ashara really hints either her or Ned like each other seriously. Maybe Ned was attracted to her but so was most of the Kingdom. She was in the running for most beautiful woman in the Kingdom along with Cersei. There is nothing that hints she likes him though. "Looking to Stark" could have been Lyanna or Brandon. Also her being dishonored comes from Barristan and we know Barristan respected Ned. I don't think he would have as much respect for Ned if Ned dishonored the woman he wanted. This is just a few of the many gaps within the OotGH theory. As I have said before it's a very well crafted theory and much more thought out and better than most. However this theory is also a lynch pin for a lot of other things that at the end starts to create this massive counter continuity. Which is fine for fan fiction but not good for canon theory. They tend to look too much into how the result is possible and not enough on how their theory fits into the wider story. However I do have to give it to them that they are very creative and would love to see them do a fanfiction one day if their theory doesn't pan out. It would be interesting to see how they would go about finishing the books.
Ned fell in love with Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhall which happened well before Brandon was killed. Ned was free to do as he pleased at that point and were even reminded of that fact in the story by none other than Edric Dayne who happily points out that there was no besmirchment on Ned's honor.
@@williamhermann6635The problem is that Jon wasn't concieved at Harranhal. He wasn't concieved during the time at Starfall either. So he would have had to have been concieved just before Brandon and Rickard died or some point when Ned was journeying up North or while he was gathering the troops. If it was right before the war then people would have seen her at the Vale. Plus Robert when talking about girls with Ned never brings her up. That a big deal considering Robert's own wife thinks Ashara is Jon's mother. Robert was Ned's best friend and was at the Vale. So that seems very unlikely it was before the war. After the war started Ned would have known he would have been expected to probably marry Catlyn. So him doing anything after that would seem out of character. As for what I said about Barristan we have to remember Barristan was infatuated with Ashara. So when he says she was dishonored he likely wouldn't think highly of the person who dishonored her at Harranhal. Yet he thinks highly of Ned. Ned Dayne claims they were in love but he claims Wylla was Jon's mother. That confirms his family is in on the same lie Ned only tells Robert. If Ashara was Jon's mother then there is very little reason to lie to Robert. Could there have been feelings between them? It's possible but that doesn't mean they got to actually act on those feelings.
@@paragon1172000 I didnt say he was conceived at Harrenhall. A lot of time went by between the tourney at harrenhall and when jon was said to have been born (some time around the sacking of King's Landing iirc). Lyanna didnt disappear right away after Harrenhall and also think how much time it wouldve taken for Rickon and Brandon to go all the way down to King's Landing and then word of their deaths reach all the way to The Vale, then Ned make the trip all the way to White Harbor and then back to Winterfell. And thats just when he called the banners. He had to wait for those to assemble then go to Riverrun and marry Catelyn, then march all the way south and fight a war. Ned couldve conceived Jon at White Harbor just before making his trek back to Winterfell to call the banners. I think it happened there because thats where the Wolf's Den is and was built by a Jon Stark, the only Jon Stark in the entire Stark lore. And there's a giant weirwood there too for Ned to marry Ashara in front of which would make Jon legitimate and the heir to Winterfell. A new Jon Stark. White Harbor/ Wolf's Den is a one stop shop for N+A=J.
@@williamhermann6635 I wasn't assuming you thought Harranhal to be clear. I was just ruling it out. The problem I have with the idea of The Wolf Den idea is by that point Ned would have at least the idea for him to marry Catelyn. It may not have been a formal engagement but I'm sure the three of them at the time(Robert, Jon Arryn, and Ned) would have already been for the idea of the Tully's joining. Which means Ned would have known the price probably would have been marrying Catelyn. So if we go by Order of the Green Hand's theory which is what you seem to be going by unless I'm mistaken. Either she was with him since the Vale and is the fisherman's daughter or she met him at White Harbor. If it's the former Robert should have at least had her as an idea for the mother of Jon. If it's the latter then again I don't think it makes sense for him to do that knowing he has a war to fight and an alliance to get. He may have technically been free but realistically he would have known that Hoster's loyalty would come with a price.
also i congratulate you on your broad-mindedness
He put together good arguments, but I think that the prevailing theories on this are very much wrong. I don't think anyone gets it right except for me of course. 😉
I feel like fans want to believe this theory because they want Jon to be able to use Dawn. But like another RUclipsr said...do we really think that if the fate of the world depended on Jon Snow using Dawn, the Daynes would say no and condemn everyone to death just because he's not one of them? And even if they were a-holes and did that, Jon couldn't have someone like Arya infiltrate Starfall and steal the sword? I've never bought into this theory for a variety of reasons; I think it makes far more sense that Ashara and Brandon were together; but yeah...Jon doesn't necessarily have to be a Dayne to use Dawn. Great job Grease!!
I 100% agree with u!
What if its not a choice? The Dayne's and Dawn are straight out of Arthurian legend (their most famous warrior even being named Arthur). Whos to say Dawn isnt in some pale stone right now waiting for the right man to come and take it?
It is possible that Ned & Ashara could have conceived Jon out of wedlock, as having a paramour is nit badly seen in Dorne & Ned was a teen, thus drenched in hormones.
If this theory is correct, it would explain why Ned was so over the top about traditions & doing the right thing. The one time he let his guard down, shit hit the fan.
I think Ned married her in front of a weirwood.
@@williamhermann6635 are there Weirwoods in Dorne?
@@jgr7487 Doubtful, but who says she was in Dorne? Even GRRM himself said "they have boats in Dorne" when asked about Ashara which I believe is a huge hint to Ashara being the woman people believed to be the "fisherman's daughter". I believe the theory that after harrenhall Ashara went with Ned to the Vale. Once Ned receives word about his father and brother being killed, she makes the trek with Ned back north which is when the fisherman's daughter tale was formed. Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter." Once they reached White Harbor, Ashara stayed there in the same keep Davos later stays in (Wolf's Den) which is supposed to be a cell but Davos remarks how it resembles a lord's chambers and the only book there was a Faith of the 7 book. I think this directly points to Ashara taking cover as a Septa and becoming Septa Lamore. Theres a large but hidden weirwood in White Harbor and that is where I believe they married. Also worth noting, the Wolf's Den at White Harbor was built by a Jon Stark (the only Jon Stark found anymore in this universe), which I believe is a hint to where the current Jon was born. And if Ned and Ashara were married there, that means Jon Snow is actually Jon Stark. It takes some leaps but the little clues GRRM has left us all fit like a glove. These books are like a huge puzzle where the pieces are sometimes thousands of pages apart.
as someone who prefers r + l to n + a, you presented this theory as really believable, like the logic was pretty sound. i think a big reason i dislike this theory is that it feels like it doesnt fit into the themes of asoiaf, it feels a bit more straightforward fairy tail-ending.
And Jon being a secret prince hidden away to protect him from the usurper king who killed his father _isn't_ the most blatantly straightforward fairy tale ending?
@@X525Crossfire see I would say that's a very fairy tale setup, but I think goerge is gonna put his subversive twist on it. Whereas this theory moreso feels like a fairy tale ending than setup for jon
To me honestly I think N+A makes for a better story and gets Dawn in Jon’s hands or we can go the show route and hope GRRM makes it better. I do look forward to your R+L video and hope you can explain what it does for the story other than Jon gets a dragon.
“Support comment”
I feel like people who like this theory subscribe to it for unrelated reasons. And by that I mean it’s less about what it means for Jon and more about what it means for Dany. Let’s face it, Jon has no connection to the Daynes. No big connection to stars. He’s a good fighter and you have a potential relation to Arthur Dayne. That’s about it, it doesn’t do much for me. He’s already got a sword in Longclaw, no need for Dawn.
Because what seems apparent based on Rhaegar’s personality is that R+L= someone. If that someone ISN’T Jon that means it’s likely to be Dany.
And I bring this up because the story of Dany’s birth is on shaky ground. Stormborn could very easily be stillborn, and everyone that was involved in that event is now dead anyways. Then you have the house with the red door with a lemon tree and it just makes you want to throw out everything you think you know about Dany and her origins.
But those who see Dany as our Azor Ahai figure will always view her through rose-tinted glasses and try to contort her story to be more prophetic. Even going so far as to drag Ned and Cat’s marriage through the dirt.
The explanation for Dany is simple though. And it debunks the hell out of this theory-
R+L=J
And
R+A=D
Mental gymnastics.
@@williamhermann6635 She's Ashara's daughter and once you realize why, nothing could be more clear.
@@jmeds94 Lol no. Nearly every time Ashara is mentioned, its in conjuction with Ned. You have Catelyn asking about Ashara and Ned responding with "Never ask me about Jon." You have Cersei accusing Ned of causing Ashara's suicide with "was it the brother you slew or the baby you stole?" And those 2 were in the very first book. But wait theres more. You have the tourney at harrenhall story told by Jojen and Meera Reed where Ned and Ashara danced and fell in love. You have Edric Dayne telling Arya how Ned and Ashara fell in love but it was before he was betrothed to Catelyn so theres no blemish on his honor. You have Barriston Selmy tell the story about how she was "dishonored by a Stark". I mean how many more references do you need from the actual texts before it starts to sink in? Theres no references to Rhaegar or Ashara nor are there any references to Dany and Ashara beyond Barriston saying she looked like her which makes no sense because Ashara had black hair and their only like feature is purple eyes. There's zero book evidence for Dany being a Dayne. What would be the significance anyways? Is Dany going to suddenly take up a sword and wield Dawn? It does nothing for the story whatsoever.
Dany isnt going to be Azor Ahai either. Azor Ahai is famous for his flaming red sword that was forged in the heart of his wife (Nissa Nissa). If anything, Dany will be Nissa Nissa and Young Griff will kill her and transform into Azor Ahai.
Ned+Ashara=Jon
Rhaegar+Lyanna=Young Griff
Aerys+Rhaella=Dany
@@williamhermann6635 Are you familiar with the concept of misdirection? The mystery of Jon’s mother paints Ashara as the likely candidate in book 1. Kind of like how the killer in a mystery is never the person who it is originally suggested to be.
Ned Stark is too honorable of a character to have fathered a bastard on a woman before marrying another. Simple as that. His name will remain preserved in the most clean and revered state after his death. Cat was silly and suspicious of something that was never true and it birthed her unprecedented distaste for Jon.
If Dany is Rhaegar’s bastard like Jon, it means she has an even weaker claim to the throne than he does. By that point in the story Aegon will be on the throne already and Jon and Dany will be opposing him.
The upcoming Rhaegar twist is that he was never in love with Lyanna. He had a secret affair with Ashara at court which his wife Elia and friend Arther were both knowledgeable of and ok with. What we know about Rhaegar is that he loved prophecy. It’s highly speculated that Ashara is actually still alive and living as Quaithe. If that is true, when do you think Quaithe got her powers of foresight? If she always had them, we have a girl at court with prophetic powers interacting with Targaryens… Rhaegar would be all over that. His love for prophecy is his love for a witchy Dayne woman who gets all mystic with the stars and tells him of his future.
The fact that Rhaegar and Ashara are NEVER mentioned together despite living in the same place and associating with the same people is HIGHLY suspicious. That would logically not be as absent as it is unless Martin was hiding something. Their relationship would also parallel Tyrion’s secrecy with Shae. Another cool thing this means is that Dany is born out of love while Jon is born out of duty.
My original comment was suggesting that people like the idea of N+A=J because it opens the door for R+L=D which makes Dany a stronger candidate for Azor Ahai. I do not think Dany is Azor Ahai, I think Jon is because he will kill Dany. He’s just not the epic hero character that all of the high fantasy boners want him to be. He will NOT fight/kill a big bad, Arya will. Jon will get shafted and sent back north after killing Dany like in the show.
Aegon, a character introduced in book 5, ought not have the significance of being the story’s chosen one or hero. A good king/politician? Sure.
The real kicker is that this whole time Dany has been guided toward her destiny by her own mother who KNOWS that at the end of this journey, her daughter will die. It was the sacrifice needed to save the world. Which is why in book 2 she was crying behind her lacquered mask so her eyes didn’t appear purple, but “shiny.” But that is the tragic song of ice and fire.
@@jmeds94 Lol GRRM himself said something along the lines of "if the clues point to the butler, by the end, youre gonna find out the butler did it." What happened here is R+L=J theory was crafted long before the introduction of Young Griff so Jon was the only likely candidate for being born at TOJ. By the time Young Griff was introduced, ya'll were so set in your theory that you had to craft the "Faegon" theory just to keep R+L=J theory feasible. Why tf would GRRM introduce a fake Blackfyre character in book 5 when hes already having serious trouble writing the books? It doesnt make any sense. Mental gymnastics at its finest. Its one thing to believe something in the absence of evidence, but when further evidence comes along, ignoring it is because it doesnt fit your preconceived notions is just plain lazy. Theres no evidence for Jon being the son of Rhaegar or Lyanna. No evidence of Jon having dragon dreams. Doesnt act like Rhaegar or Lyanna. Doesnt look like Rhaegar or Lyanna. He is practically a clone of Ned. But you believe all of this is just misdirection? Cmon man. You cant be this hardheaded. This story is all about the Dayne's. GRRM hasnt even told us their house words yet because he said it would reveal too much. Jon is a Dayne, Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne, Septa Lamore is Ashara Dayne, Val is likely Allyria Dayne, and even Halfmaester Haldon is a Dayne (Haldon literally translates to Half-Dane in Dutch). And theres still Edric and Darkstar. But its all just misdirection lol.
so this Video was just butchered version of the theory?
If the show is Right and R+L=J that is kinda boring to be honest. Also, L is ok starting a war? getting her Brother and Father Killed? did she know? did R know her father and brother were killed? if he did, could he at least try to talk to Robert and come together to Depose the king? from what I understand the war was pretty long.
the N+A=J.. I hope is real, gives Ned more personality and makes him more real. Love is the death Duty. What if Ashara was Ned's Love. He had to give her up for Duty? that sounds like something Ned would do. I hope N+A=J is real. I want Ned to have life of his own not just be in the shadow of his brother. the Secret Marriage with Ashara I am on the fence with though, it could have happened could have not. I like the part of the theory why Ashara was in the Vale cause Ned was going to present her to his Father at Brandon's Wedding to Caitlyn. But Shit hit the fan and finding out his Brother and Father are dead due to the mad king. It is not hard to believe he would be with Ashara, it's the woman he loves.. the Woman he wants to marry. He doesn't know if make Home to call the banners. Jon banged Igrid for less. I hope N+A=J is real. Not sure it is.
Love this theory, but it just doesn't add up. You have to make a ton of assumptions for this theory to be true. Sometimes the most obvious answer is the answer 🤷🏾♂️
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N+A=J is like 2+2=5
Yeah. But nah...
Ashara is married to Howland
Order of the Green Hand takes the most bass ackward theories and sells them hard. I don't enjoy their delivery either - they kind of yell at you.