There really was nothing to oppose in what Kanchan Gupta said, though Abhijeet tried to disagree without much reasoning. But it is good that your forum is raising such issues... Hindus need to discuss these in much more detail.
I guess Abhijeet is merely referring to the extent of acceptance of state intervention in private beliefs / actions. The question is when and to what extent can the state be permitted to intervene in private affairs. What if such power to intervene is used to intervene in other actions which may not normatively appear disgusting at the present [eg proposition of totalitarian ideologies to have complete control of subject’s life, Sabarimala judgment and lot of woke interventions currently appear to be illegitimate internventions]. How do we address the risk of over reach and abuse associated with state intervention? Abhijeet’s proposed version of complete non-intervention by state on private belief of course seems to be in an idealist world where people enjoy complete independence and state (as well as social) support to move to a separate belief system, and all belief systems exist independent of each other, without any inertia / restrictions on moving from one belief system to another. However, all human groups profess their belief systems and with sufficient economic, social and political clout do not hesitate to create restrictions on mobility of individuals out of the group (or force individuals to comply with the group’s belief system) (Eg wokes want you to comply with their world view and do not hesitate to exercise coercion for the same, Abrahimic faiths have conversion and professing as important parts of the belief system and punish any unsubscription to the belief system). Under such circumstances, if there is no state intervention, these group interests can severely restrict mobility amongst various belief systems (as well as the evolution of the given belief system). Additional risk is of such group interests taking over the state itself and using tools of the state to propagate their belief systems (eg Islamic states, institutional capture by wokes in US etc.) Solution - I have not come up with one and I am still thinking around options. Literature around the issue frequently seeks to profess one of the 2 options as lesser evil. Others prefer to not engage with the issue and merely presume that one will work (eg many humanist ideologies propose state controlled by people with adequate personal experiences should get the job done in the most incorruptible fashion - Marxism proposes dictatorship of the proletariat). If anyone reading this comment may refer me to to any literature or arguments that may help resolve this dilema, the same will be much appreciated. Thanks!
@@abhishekrao1602 You have outlined the problem facing Hindus very well indeed. Since we are a non proselytizing religion, how can we stop and reverse the process of conversion if the Shuddhi movement does not start in a big way? And Hindu society has to manage this, as this is not the job of the state. The state intruded into Hindu lives in a big way only after 1947 when Nehru started dismantling Hindu institutions & personal laws etc all the while allowing M's & C's all freedom to do as they please. Also the leftists projected a view of the state as Mai Baap that is going to protect the interests of the poor against the rich. During the last 70 years this benign view of the state has percolated so deep down the Hindu subconscious that many don't even realize it now. So, coming to a possible solution, there can be two approaches working simultaneously. One, Hindu efforts to prevent Islamic/woke takeover of the state should start in right earnest. Second, Hindu society, whatever is left of it now, should strive hard to take control of religious institutions back from the state and also start new social initiatives to energize the Hindu ecosystem to enable it not just to retain it's own ground but also to enable to regain lost territory. All this is much easier said than done, but unless Hindus overcome their psychological fear, they can't even make a start.
Which Hindu practices that are widely practiced that the panelists would condemn I am not talking about practices that a small sections of society practise in some remote corner. I am talking about main stream mainly urban society in present day India. Did they personally witness themselves or it is only anecdotal. Hinduism always evolves and we are witnessing ourselves in our life time. Caste system would have disappeared ages ago if political parties did not exploit it .
Aitraya Upanishada was written by a dasi Putra. Vishwamitra a Kshatriya went on to become a Brahmin. Varna is flexible. “Varna triumphs Jaati every single time”.
One of the lines guru Kanchan spoke '' Look at the past, Study it, Scrutinize it & gather valuable lessons from it to reform the society '' Dear Abhijit misinterpreted his premise & slightly twisted it in a way that it sounded like, don't be obsessed with past like the last Emperor of China It was a jocund discussion. 𑀥𑀦𑁆𑀬𑀯𑀸𑀤𑀂
There's a difference between discouraging some views and legally banning those views. Varna/Jati views can be discouraged but can still be legally allowed! I think both abhijit and kanchan agree on this. What is the debate all about?
The distinction i observe is that all other religions are neophytes and much younger as compared to hinduism which predates them by margins of many millenia. The social aberrations of caste system and other orthodoxies are, to my view, largely socio-economic fall outs of a decline in the Hindian civilisation in the last 1500 -1800 years or even more. The reasons may be simply an ennui that set in driven by complacency and an entropic impetus which, perhaps, exposed it to the predatory invasions in later centuries. The trajectory of classical Western intellectual and philosophical traditions appear to be, in a sense, merely catching up and just regurgitating the evolved scientific philosophy of Sanatan at its peak ( a rare amalgamation of empirical science and a philosophy derived from it). These are facts and deep deductions that, by and large, escape the contemporary hindus as they are oblivious of the wealth of that knowledge. In other words the glory of what was cannot be rehashed and re-enacted out on the world stage and copyrights be demanded. So let us stop behaving as entitled, nepotistic, lazy inheritors of Sanatan legacy but EARN its revival by hard labour and scholarship. The social revival follows the knowledge and not the other way round.
"Hinduism" is always "modern" - fits the time Now, politics, I do not know much about. I am told most politicians are people who fail in their professions. So, how does one modernize them - do not know Focus on politicans/politics, not on "Hindu"ism
In which scripture that Sati or Child marriage was prescribed? Customs evolved over centuries due to social circumstances are not necessarily from Hindu religious teachings.
Only way reform happens in Hinduism is by creating a new panth Jain, buddha,Basavanna, sikhi, kabir all failed to scale up their enterprise in their era due to lack of communication Start a new panth with broadly debated edicts and do a reverse merger of all I'll Do a madhu-smriti😁👍 and chuck out manusmriti Who's joining me?
This is officially the best youtube channel for right wing discourse in India for common educated public. Or may be its just the kind of effect Kanchan ji has due to his presence. Cheers to all the speakers including kushal. Maza aa gaya boss.
I think Abhijith Is right on this one, state power is to be restricted not expanded, saying most Hindus in India were not bothered with Shabarimala shows Kanchan Gupta does not understand Abhijith's point
Why shud it be done unless people are not indulging in caste discrimination. Tell me how is marrying in the same caste different from marrying in the same religion, same state, same culture same nationality U should apply your mind than taking everything that Charvaka says at face value
@Vir Singh wherein any of my arguments u saw me advocating for people not to marry outside caste. I just objected to the lady above who is talking about taking the personal liberty who want to marry within the same caste..and FYI people marrying within the same caste is very similar to people marrying for dame religion or same nationality..you think it's absurd because u think Hindus as this homogeneous entity but the fact is that they r not. I'm a marwadi Rajput and I have little similarity and align cultural practices with another caste..so it's quite likely I wud like to get married within my tribe because of salience not b/c I'm here to preserve endogamy
@Vir Singh thing are not homogeneous in marwad..our food practices are different..our worshipping practices are different..our kul devi and ista dev festivals are different..a sense of connecting with history with fellow Rajputs are different..I didn't say we don't have anything common as such but clearly, I have more salience with my caste folks than others..
@Vir Singh and clans comes from the caste u belong..same caste cud have different clan but different caste doesn't have same clan...my kuldevi is of my caste alone not of any of the baniya or brahmin in my area. My kuldevi Asha Pura mata is only of Chauhan's and Jadeja
6:54 Not if those fundamentals (or at least some of them) are bad & goes against keeping peace with others. 1:22:15 I think that was a feminist & probably the same one who did the same thing in Maharashtra with the Shani Shingnapur temple years before that.
Hinduism is so advanced and so Morden that there is nothing to change. What I understand from it is that “ Freedom of choice to practice your own religion “ there are 7 billion people on this earth and to me there are 7billion ways to find “GOD”. What can be more advanced then this religiously or politically. Extremely simple but difficult to understand concept!🙏🙏
Why debate Karpatri Maharaj instead of how religions modernized in regions where communities had agency & how elites and poor negotiated & found creative solutions because elites had agency to resolve issues without having to follow a template of resolution.
Mr. Kanchan Gupta’s reference to a fornicating Hindu acharya is exactly what is troubling, the fact that Acharya he referred to is an extraordinarily evolved person in terms of his articulate and eloquent discourses and his exceptional grip on highly sophisticated ideas cannot be separated from the person he is and diminished, which is what that ‘American-Indian scholar defends’.
The concept that mukti is ultimate goal has been static Abhijit Iyer Mitra. Liberation from shadripus: kaam krodh madh moh maatsarya lobh. This has always been sanatan, hence our dharm has been called sanatan Dharma.
These days it is fashionable to credit everything to the sangh but the credit for a lot of reform in hinduism must go to Ambedkar and Nehru. In the modern world all religions have to constantly reform either due to technology as in the case of abortions or social changes like gay marriage, in both those cases orthodox christians were left behind as society changed and now there are a lot of 'nones' in western countries.
This seems to imply laws as the root of reform. This reversal of cause-effect is why you have the phenomenon of the clueless Indian liberal. Ambedkar was an intellectual giant while Nehru was an insecure small man. But both miserably failed to change society.
@@shubhamtiwari7008; Satyemeva Jayete. Dr. Ambedkar tried to modernize Hinduism. Sadly, Hinduism should reform from glorifying "murderers" through worship. 1) Sri Ram and Krishna are claimed for the 5000+yrs have been claimed without any evidence to be incarnations of Vishnu. why? bcz there is none. 1) Sri Ram in rage and revenge murdered Ravana and Khubhakaran for Sita haran. 2) Sri Krishna, makhan CHORE encouraged Arjun and personally assisted the Pandavas in mass-murdering 100 Kauravas for the inheritance. 3) Shiva in a jealous rage beheaded his own son then covered with the head of a slaughtered elephant called Ganpathi, a composite MURDA worshiped to remove life obstacles. Good luck Tiwari ji.4) Arsonist Hanuman, an associate of Ram, a monkey without wings claimed to fly across Bharat to Lanka to light a fire to Lanka to burn its inhabitants. 5) vicious murder Durga riding a lion murdering Mahishasura with a Trishul. 6) Kali with blood dripping from her tongue. Jai Hind.
They wouldn't even know why we worship sati maa..this bottle down approach of dismissing everything which triggers my sensitivity and sophistication is wud never go down well with us.
Kanchan da ke bolne me ek itminan hai. Its a life goal to have such a self assurance. Nice discussion. As they say it takes two greats to create great play. Kushal is a informed moderator. Subscribed.
Excellent conference and yes, one of the biggest, perhaps the biggest challenge before Hindu socio-political unity is CASTE discrimination and resulting mistrust.
@Shashwat Singh 60-70 years... I think you're not factoring in the spread of internet (edutech, fintech, etc.). Also, there might not be any "industry" in the labor-intensive sense, that far into the future. Caste (as a mainstream phenomenon) can end in 6-12 years, if the ruling dispensation gets the socio-economics right, consistently. The nature of the "tribal allegiance" (a part of every human group) must be expanded to the national level. The idea of a consistently "winning India" can greatly catalyze this.
@Shashwat Singh; Satyemeva Jayete. Caste apartheid is only one aspect. To modernize Hinduism should reform from glorifying "murders" through worship. 1) Sri Ram and Krishna are claimed for the 5000+yrs have been claimed without any evidence to be incarnations of Vishnu. why? bcz there is none. 1) Sri Ram in rage and revenge murdered Ravana and Khubhakaran for Sita haran. 2) Sri Krishna, makhan CHORE encouraged Arjun and personally assisted the Pandavas in mass-murdering 100 Kauravas for the inheritance. 3) Shiva in a jealous rage beheaded his own son then covered with the head of a slaughtered elephant called Ganpathi, a composite MURDA worshiped to remove life obstacles. Good luck Shashwat Bhai.4) Arsonist Hanuman, an associate of Ram, a monkey without wings claimed to fly across Bharat to Lanka to light a fire to Lanka to burn its inhabitants. 5) vicious murder Durga riding a lion murdering Mahishasura with a Trishul. 6) Kali with blood dripping from her tongue.
A school qualifies for a linguistic minority only if 25% of the school comprises of that language. I think South Indian school in Mumbai had to claim to be a Tamil school to qualify for religious minority status.
Kanchan Gupta is expressing his views very maturly where as Abhijith other way round . Abhijith is over matured like Ramgopal varma (film director)....needs some peroid of peace, may be at Himalaya....
I have to put my mind on reverse gear to keep up with the slow speed of granpa. He should just rest, eat good food and sleep at this age. Just take a long break sir. Leave all this worries of the world and mantra japa of ishta devta.
Nice discussion! Both Kanchan Gupta and AIM's views were well presented and defended persuasively. I partially side with Kanchan because the State at some point has to have these contact points with the religions (at least when it becomes a point of contention within the communities).
Within state when you have separation of powers, you have checks and balances such as those between judiciary and executive. If we agree to have a separation of powers between state and religion, don't we need similar checks and balances. Since there is no balancing religious institution for Hindus, the state even while claiming to be separate can execute enormous influence on the other by extrapolating its own powers such as protection of fundamental rights. In such a scenario, religion will most likely shift towards influencing politics as seen in the shift of RSS to BJP, from social hindutva to political hindutva. Although the separation of powers is very useful on a practical level, such differences may not exist when looked at the more abstract forms of society such as civilizational goals. Just like role of state differs in emergencies like wars, and the role of the state evolves like education and heal becoming fundamental roles, the state may need some roles in some scenarios. In an ideal scenario, state may not even interfere in ending issues like untouchability (some other social organization should have done it), but when facing with a threat of near extinction and a need of urgency in unifying hindu society and polity to face external and internal threats, state may have to take bigger role in influencing religion.
The only religious group that has the potential to adapt to any modern practice without losing the spiritual identity is hindu religion. There are no absolute restrictions imposed on a hindu even though he is frowned upon eating beef. The religious restrictions evolved due to various contexts including ignorance, foreign invasions, pseudoscience and political factors. The resistance of hindus for reforms nowadays is also reactionary in nature due to governments inability to force much needed reforms in muslim personal laws. mosques and churches enjoying unrestricted freedoms where as temples are under strict controls. Also minority institutions enjoy autonomy and government patronage despite open anti hindu practices and policies while hindu festivals are derided and obstructed. hindu practices are ridiculed and institutions are constantly derided and defunded.
Hinduism is so advanced so Morden that there is nothing to Mordenise in it from religion or political point of view. What I understand by Hinduism that freedom of choice. There are 7 billion people in the world and there are 7 billion ways to find “GOD”. Only if people can understand this. Everyone is Hindu because they have choice to practice there own religion. Very simple but extremely difficult concept to understand!🙏🙏🙏
Lovely discussion...two right wing liberals going at it...one with modern idea of individuals rights ..other with old school of individual rights with keeping other people feelings in mind...such a small difference can also become a beautiful discussion..
Chanchan Da is a very good human being but is not exposed to Western wokeism live which is one day or other coming to India as a wave just like communism socialism and capitalism. Abhijit and Kushal "are"
Too much condescension and verbal vomiting by AIM. There are certainly things he says I agree with. Casteism has no place in our society and those who continue to perpetuate upper and lower caste distinctions do not belong to this society that proclaimed lofty mahAvAkyas like "tat tvam asi." But this "I know it all" demeanor of a man, who probably has read more books and traveled to more places than an average man, is quite repelling. Are there some who espouse casteist ideas and disseminate them? Yes, but are miniscule in number and are quite irrelevant in changing India. But people like Ashish Dhar are not proponents of this divisive idea. If I did understand Dhar rightly, he is simply saying VarNa has metaphysical basis, as explained by Sri Krishna in Gita, the human nature (svabhAva) is shaped by GuNa and karma accumulated thru many lifetimes and therefore, humans can be categorized under different stages of spiritual evolution. But this varNa is dynamic. It is never static. By sheer better prarAbdhas if someone finds himself or herself taking birth in a "satvik" household, he or she has the best opportunity to evolve into higher nature because of the mentoring and nurturing he or she may receive. However, birth alone will not decide one's varNa. How one transcends the forces of causality that sets a deterministic path, to avail one's agency to evolve to higher state, is what ultimately important. No Brahmin by birth, will remain closer to Brahman (the Absolute) if he or she uses the "orthodoxy" to treat fellow humans or even other life forms, intentionally, consciously, less than the divine he or she sees in himself or herself. Because ultimately, all forms of life are diverse manifestations of Sri Hari Himself! This is the very fundamental truth of sanatana dharma. That is the idea behind varNa. It is never meant to create a divisive society or to create gradations in society. One has to go to the right source, seek the jnAna from real gurus like late Bannanje Govida acarya to learn about the truth. So, modernizing Hindu society means we should be going back to our Upanishadic ideals while retaining kshAtra consciousness that is awakened in Arjuna by Sri Krishna to fight adharma. As for jAti, less said the better. These are very modern constructs. All kinship communities went up and down the social hierarchy as occupations and economic opportunities in the ancient world either opened up or declined. Some were relegated to the periphery of society and some moved into the core. Society was ergodic, meaning, across time and space various communities found themselves occupying different social positions. Sai Deepak talks abut the "pariahs" a Dalit community of Tamil Nadu, who were actually Brahmins once upon a time. Our society was fluid that way. It will continue to be this way. People become rich, they manage to stay rich for few generations and then they decline and become poor. Nothing sticks forever. What we, as a society, need to make sure is, the discrimination that stems from economic might of one community over another is not static and the need to maintain favorable power differential does not result in persecution and violence (kingdoms engaging in wars to expand territories did not harm commoners). That did not happen in India until the Abrahamic faiths invaded this land.
These are conventions after great thoughts & discussionns of our ancestors, which we do not know. MAY be due to the government restrictions by the jainism in its peak.Some banned pork,some banned entire meat products . Incest is almost a crime inmost of the present civilized countries. Marriage of brother & sister was a common among Pharoahhs. But it's bad results have been discovered. Incest can also produces babies similarly the beef can't be vomited by the human stomach. Onions,garlic,under ground tubers are not vomited by our stomach. But being civilized men & women we must respect the feelings of others. It will do no harm to mankind. There are so called High cast Hindus who speak on TV shows, that they are taking beef. If in any Muslim country it will be known thaT some one is eating pork. He will be murdered in cross chowk. These restrictions have been prescribed by our ancestors after giving some thought over the matter needs to be studied. There are places in India where bulls & buffaloes are eaten during religious faires . It is personal thing what to eat, what not to eat, but to play with the sentiments of vegetarians is a sin. In western countries many people have become vegan. You can't blame their choice & sentiments.
Kanchan Gupta is a traditionalist/conservative masquerading as a modern reformist hindu. He says he doesn't want to offend the majority, well majority today says something about not eating beef, tomorrow it starts saying those who don't go to temple are not hindus then in future says those who eats any kind of meat is not hindu, then if majority becomes shaviet and says non shiv bhakts are not hindus. He wouldn't wanna hurt and change himself accordingly..
Evey thought which doesn't see majority will check itself or remain as a sect. You can't say that you don't want any sect or any belief system other than the popular one. As that's what Hinduism as a whole defies. To say you wanna bring Hinduism to the level of other religions so that there's an equality of thought and common practices will make it abrahmanical like Christianity and Islam.
All being Said I agree with him about working around the system and that's where hindus don't show the jugad mentality that they should like other predatory religions.
It may not be a question of “certification” but of “predictably.” If I know he is a Jain, I will know his attitude towards garlic, potato or whatever. In a Hindu household, meat is not expected. You may eat it outside. This is not hypocracy,
It's not vague . It's just , your past doesn't define your present , nor does your future . But your present can define both . Hinduism says this rather than the nonsense of your past doesn't define your future . The present which is a major concept for Christians was actually given as the tool of continuity by Shri Krishna , by teh Vedas , in different interpretation . The problem is people neither understand this nor do they understand why the west is either stuck in the past or the future and why we are also falling into the same loop .
It shocks me that Abhijit being a Hindu and being an intellectual thinks that eating beef is somehow related to freedom. Eating beef is the leading cause of global warming and destruction of the world's ecosystems. It's disappointing to see a so called intellectual being ignorant about this. The fact of the matter is Abhijit has a lot of knowledge but he still fails to make correct predictions or understand world issues due to his emotions getting in the way. For mental faculties to work properly emotions need to be left behind. Logic and emotions can't go hand in hand
A charvaka, a beef eater is discussing hindus and shastras, biggest joke of the centaury. Listen guys we are gud without you pls feel free to leave hindu dharma for good.
@@dr.harshitjain6410 "brahmanwadi" lol, pls free to b$rn in your own created hell of hate against brahmins, I will say it thousand times that beef eater aren't hindu.
@@ananttripathi4194 doesn't matter what you say. A charvaka is an essential part of Hinduism. (Charvaka can be a beef eater or not, I personally hate meat and I am pure vegetarian) This hatred against eating beef is a Buddhist idea amalgamated into Hinduism. Prior to Buddha, Brahmins were the biggest beef eater. They use to Gau Medh Yagna.
There really was nothing to oppose in what Kanchan Gupta said, though Abhijeet tried to disagree without much reasoning. But it is good that your forum is raising such issues... Hindus need to discuss these in much more detail.
I guess Abhijeet is merely referring to the extent of acceptance of state intervention in private beliefs / actions. The question is when and to what extent can the state be permitted to intervene in private affairs. What if such power to intervene is used to intervene in other actions which may not normatively appear disgusting at the present [eg proposition of totalitarian ideologies to have complete control of subject’s life, Sabarimala judgment and lot of woke interventions currently appear to be illegitimate internventions]. How do we address the risk of over reach and abuse associated with state intervention?
Abhijeet’s proposed version of complete non-intervention by state on private belief of course seems to be in an idealist world where people enjoy complete independence and state (as well as social) support to move to a separate belief system, and all belief systems exist independent of each other, without any inertia / restrictions on moving from one belief system to another. However, all human groups profess their belief systems and with sufficient economic, social and political clout do not hesitate to create restrictions on mobility of individuals out of the group (or force individuals to comply with the group’s belief system) (Eg wokes want you to comply with their world view and do not hesitate to exercise coercion for the same, Abrahimic faiths have conversion and professing as important parts of the belief system and punish any unsubscription to the belief system). Under such circumstances, if there is no state intervention, these group interests can severely restrict mobility amongst various belief systems (as well as the evolution of the given belief system). Additional risk is of such group interests taking over the state itself and using tools of the state to propagate their belief systems (eg Islamic states, institutional capture by wokes in US etc.)
Solution - I have not come up with one and I am still thinking around options. Literature around the issue frequently seeks to profess one of the 2 options as lesser evil. Others prefer to not engage with the issue and merely presume that one will work (eg many humanist ideologies propose state controlled by people with adequate personal experiences should get the job done in the most incorruptible fashion - Marxism proposes dictatorship of the proletariat).
If anyone reading this comment may refer me to to any literature or arguments that may help resolve this dilema, the same will be much appreciated. Thanks!
@@abhishekrao1602 You have outlined the problem facing Hindus very well indeed. Since we are a non proselytizing religion, how can we stop and reverse the process of conversion if the Shuddhi movement does not start in a big way? And Hindu society has to manage this, as this is not the job of the state. The state intruded into Hindu lives in a big way only after 1947 when Nehru started dismantling Hindu institutions & personal laws etc all the while allowing M's & C's all freedom to do as they please. Also the leftists projected a view of the state as Mai Baap that is going to protect the interests of the poor against the rich. During the last 70 years this benign view of the state has percolated so deep down the Hindu subconscious that many don't even realize it now. So, coming to a possible solution, there can be two approaches working simultaneously. One, Hindu efforts to prevent Islamic/woke takeover of the state should start in right earnest. Second, Hindu society, whatever is left of it now, should strive hard to take control of religious institutions back from the state and also start new social initiatives to energize the Hindu ecosystem to enable it not just to retain it's own ground but also to enable to regain lost territory. All this is much easier said than done, but unless Hindus overcome their psychological fear, they can't even make a start.
Which Hindu practices that are widely practiced that the panelists would condemn
I am not talking about practices that a small sections of society practise in some remote corner. I am talking about main stream mainly urban society in present day India. Did they
personally witness themselves or it is only anecdotal. Hinduism always evolves and we are witnessing ourselves in our life time. Caste system would have disappeared ages ago if political parties did not exploit it .
Aitraya Upanishada was written by a dasi Putra. Vishwamitra a Kshatriya went on to become a Brahmin. Varna is flexible.
“Varna triumphs Jaati every single time”.
Honestly my head ached every time Kanchan Gupta spoke...It just soooo long of a haul.
I speed up Kanchan to 1.75 times and AIM to 1.25 times.
@@ramabapat then who did you listen to?
Btw I skipped the whole parts of kanchan Gupta's part. It added nothing
@@ifinditinteresting.8709 ikr. his parts are unnecessarily longwinded
@@ramabapat x2 is even better
@@ifinditinteresting.8709 Good question. I guess I’m a fast listener. Glad RUclips has the option 😀
This was fun. AIM saying "arrey mera kaha extremism hai?" 🤣🤣
I don't know if it's just me but, once I keep my ego aside, abhijeet always seems to make the correct point
Warning : This podcast is not for trads
Vandhu oombu
@@1097-t4m !???
He meant have a nice day!
One of the lines guru Kanchan spoke
'' Look at the past, Study it, Scrutinize it & gather valuable lessons from it to reform the society ''
Dear Abhijit misinterpreted his premise & slightly twisted it in a way that it sounded like, don't be obsessed with past like the last Emperor of China
It was a jocund discussion.
𑀥𑀦𑁆𑀬𑀯𑀸𑀤𑀂
Wtf is Guru Kanchan lol
@@1097-t4m Build common sense in yourself for becoming civilized.
@@shshanksharma6371 Dumbo, Dharmic ppl are moolnivasi of Aryavartha
Arya is Dharmic term not a racial one.
😄
@@MrSoothsayer Moolniwasi are Dravidians ,bahujana and Adivasis.
Not Brahmin.baniya and rajput.
@@MrSoothsayer Tilak,taraju aur talwar inko marro jutte chaar.
Very valid discussion. thanks for hosting it !!
There's a difference between discouraging some views and legally banning those views.
Varna/Jati views can be discouraged but can still be legally allowed! I think both abhijit and kanchan agree on this. What is the debate all about?
It was a useless debate tbh. And....kanchan da was inconsistent.
Great conversation, Mr. Kanchan Gupta had a good point, we should understand why people are leaving Hinduism.
The distinction i observe is that all other religions are neophytes and much younger as compared to hinduism which predates them by margins of many millenia. The social aberrations of caste system and other orthodoxies are, to my view, largely socio-economic fall outs of a decline in the Hindian civilisation in the last 1500 -1800 years or even more. The reasons may be simply an ennui that set in driven by complacency and an entropic impetus which, perhaps, exposed it to the predatory invasions in later centuries.
The trajectory of classical Western intellectual and philosophical traditions appear to be, in a sense, merely catching up and just regurgitating the evolved scientific philosophy of Sanatan at its peak ( a rare amalgamation of empirical science and a philosophy derived from it). These are facts and deep deductions that, by and large, escape the contemporary hindus as they are oblivious of the wealth of that knowledge.
In other words the glory of what was cannot be rehashed and re-enacted out on the world stage and copyrights be demanded. So let us stop behaving as entitled, nepotistic, lazy inheritors of Sanatan legacy but EARN its revival by hard labour and scholarship. The social revival follows the knowledge and not the other way round.
i cn tell u abt rajsthn, tht th guest is served in a community thali, which many educated peopl rejected, esp as TB was rampant at tht time
"Hinduism" is always "modern" - fits the time
Now, politics, I do not know much about. I am told most politicians are people who fail in their professions. So, how does one modernize them - do not know
Focus on politicans/politics, not on "Hindu"ism
Individualism should be above everything. We are not sheeps and goats
No we are not a country of individuals we are a country of family members and community.
@@punyashloka4946that's also part of individualism. Collectivism would be you pandering to your coworkers and bosses over your family.
In which scripture that Sati or Child marriage was prescribed? Customs evolved over centuries due to social circumstances are not necessarily from Hindu religious teachings.
Only way reform happens in Hinduism is by creating a new panth
Jain, buddha,Basavanna, sikhi, kabir all failed to scale up their enterprise in their era due to lack of communication
Start a new panth with broadly debated edicts and do a reverse merger of all
I'll Do a madhu-smriti😁👍 and chuck out manusmriti
Who's joining me?
I like your idea🙏
Noppppp
Education to all
How I join u
This is officially the best youtube channel for right wing discourse in India for common educated public. Or may be its just the kind of effect Kanchan ji has due to his presence. Cheers to all the speakers including kushal. Maza aa gaya boss.
I think Abhijith Is right on this one, state power is to be restricted not expanded, saying most Hindus in India were not bothered with Shabarimala shows Kanchan Gupta does not understand Abhijith's point
Ban Caste column in matrimonial sites. And see the society change.
Why shud it be done unless people are not indulging in caste discrimination.
Tell me how is marrying in the same caste different from marrying in the same religion, same state, same culture same nationality
U should apply your mind than taking everything that Charvaka says at face value
@Vir Singh that is exactly what I said
@Vir Singh wherein any of my arguments u saw me advocating for people not to marry outside caste. I just objected to the lady above who is talking about taking the personal liberty who want to marry within the same caste..and FYI people marrying within the same caste is very similar to people marrying for dame religion or same nationality..you think it's absurd because u think Hindus as this homogeneous entity but the fact is that they r not. I'm a marwadi Rajput and I have little similarity and align cultural practices with another caste..so it's quite likely I wud like to get married within my tribe because of salience not b/c I'm here to preserve endogamy
@Vir Singh thing are not homogeneous in marwad..our food practices are different..our worshipping practices are different..our kul devi and ista dev festivals are different..a sense of connecting with history with fellow Rajputs are different..I didn't say we don't have anything common as such but clearly, I have more salience with my caste folks than others..
@Vir Singh and clans comes from the caste u belong..same caste cud have different clan but different caste doesn't have same clan...my kuldevi is of my caste alone not of any of the baniya or brahmin in my area.
My kuldevi Asha Pura mata is only of Chauhan's and Jadeja
6:54 Not if those fundamentals (or at least some of them) are bad & goes against keeping peace with others.
1:22:15 I think that was a feminist & probably the same one who did the same thing in Maharashtra with the Shani Shingnapur temple years before that.
where love is equated wth honour, hatred wil always rule unchallenged
Hinduism is so advanced and so Morden that there is nothing to change. What I understand from it is that “ Freedom of choice to practice your own religion “ there are 7 billion people on this earth and to me there are 7billion ways to find “GOD”.
What can be more advanced then this religiously or politically.
Extremely simple but difficult to understand concept!🙏🙏
1:01:37 the way Kanchan Gupta ji rebutted Abhijit's point was amazing. But tbf Abhijit made good points
Why debate Karpatri Maharaj instead of how religions modernized in regions where communities had agency & how elites and poor negotiated & found creative solutions because elites had agency to resolve issues without having to follow a template of resolution.
Mr. Kanchan Gupta’s reference to a fornicating Hindu acharya is exactly what is troubling, the fact that Acharya he referred to is an extraordinarily evolved person in terms of his articulate and eloquent discourses and his exceptional grip on highly sophisticated ideas cannot be separated from the person he is and diminished, which is what that ‘American-Indian scholar defends’.
AIM should stay out from religion definition as ही screwed it up
Looks like sometimes that he is taking his furstration out
The concept that mukti is ultimate goal has been static Abhijit Iyer Mitra. Liberation from shadripus: kaam krodh madh moh maatsarya lobh. This has always been sanatan, hence our dharm has been called sanatan Dharma.
These days it is fashionable to credit everything to the sangh but the credit for a lot of reform in hinduism must go to Ambedkar and Nehru. In the modern world all religions have to constantly reform either due to technology as in the case of abortions or social changes like gay marriage, in both those cases orthodox christians were left behind as society changed and now there are a lot of 'nones' in western countries.
i agree with the ambedkar take
This seems to imply laws as the root of reform. This reversal of cause-effect is why you have the phenomenon of the clueless Indian liberal.
Ambedkar was an intellectual giant while Nehru was an insecure small man. But both miserably failed to change society.
@@shubhamtiwari7008; Satyemeva Jayete. Dr. Ambedkar tried to modernize Hinduism. Sadly, Hinduism should reform from glorifying "murderers" through worship. 1) Sri Ram and Krishna are claimed for the 5000+yrs have been claimed without any evidence to be incarnations of Vishnu. why? bcz there is none. 1) Sri Ram in rage and revenge murdered Ravana and Khubhakaran for Sita haran. 2) Sri Krishna, makhan CHORE encouraged Arjun and personally assisted the Pandavas in mass-murdering 100 Kauravas for the inheritance. 3) Shiva in a jealous rage beheaded his own son then covered with the head of a slaughtered elephant called Ganpathi, a composite MURDA worshiped to remove life obstacles. Good luck Tiwari ji.4) Arsonist Hanuman, an associate of Ram, a monkey without wings claimed to fly across Bharat to Lanka to light a fire to Lanka to burn its inhabitants. 5) vicious murder Durga riding a lion murdering Mahishasura with a Trishul. 6) Kali with blood dripping from her tongue. Jai Hind.
But the evils of Hindus always to sangh.
Pranab Mukherjee was awarded Bharat Ratna, this yr Advanijee should be offered Bharat Ratna.
I agree 100%, Continuous improvement, and implementation of actionable critical thinking............. स्वे कर्मण्यभिरतः संसिद्धिं लभते नरः।
Kanchan da 🙏
th royal "owners" of rajasthn worship sati everyday, u cant take it away frm thm
800.Saal. हिन्दू. का. घर. लूटा. वो. हिन्दू. को
बुरा. बटा. Raha
They wouldn't even know why we worship sati maa..this bottle down approach of dismissing everything which triggers my sensitivity and sophistication is wud never go down well with us.
They're not owners?🙄
Both Abhijit and kanchan are very convincing in their opposite idea.(personally I am more convinced of Abhijit)
Kanchan da ke bolne me ek itminan hai. Its a life goal to have such a self assurance. Nice discussion. As they say it takes two greats to create great play. Kushal is a informed moderator. Subscribed.
@Kushal bhaiya please answer my superchat sometime in the future.
Kushal can't you have conversation on intergral humanism? A great philosophy given by din dayal uppadhay.... right should revive this ideology...
Eating red meat, particularly steak, has a high risk of bowel cancer - vide Argentina.
People may be converting because they are offered food, housing, education, health care, and a community that welcomes them.
Excellent conference and yes, one of the biggest, perhaps the biggest challenge before Hindu socio-political unity is CASTE discrimination and resulting mistrust.
@Shashwat Singh Caste will stay... Some people and co will ensure it stays....
@Shashwat Singh Exactly....
@Shashwat Singh 60-70 years... I think you're not factoring in the spread of internet (edutech, fintech, etc.).
Also, there might not be any "industry" in the labor-intensive sense, that far into the future.
Caste (as a mainstream phenomenon) can end in 6-12 years, if the ruling dispensation gets the socio-economics right, consistently.
The nature of the "tribal allegiance" (a part of every human group) must be expanded to the national level.
The idea of a consistently "winning India" can greatly catalyze this.
Caste discrimination will end once boomer mentality perishes
@Shashwat Singh; Satyemeva Jayete. Caste apartheid is only one aspect. To modernize Hinduism should reform from glorifying "murders" through worship. 1) Sri Ram and Krishna are claimed for the 5000+yrs have been claimed without any evidence to be incarnations of Vishnu. why? bcz there is none. 1) Sri Ram in rage and revenge murdered Ravana and Khubhakaran for Sita haran. 2) Sri Krishna, makhan CHORE encouraged Arjun and personally assisted the Pandavas in mass-murdering 100 Kauravas for the inheritance. 3) Shiva in a jealous rage beheaded his own son then covered with the head of a slaughtered elephant called Ganpathi, a composite MURDA worshiped to remove life obstacles. Good luck Shashwat Bhai.4) Arsonist Hanuman, an associate of Ram, a monkey without wings claimed to fly across Bharat to Lanka to light a fire to Lanka to burn its inhabitants. 5) vicious murder Durga riding a lion murdering Mahishasura with a Trishul. 6) Kali with blood dripping from her tongue.
Abhijit is true
A school qualifies for a linguistic minority only if 25% of the school comprises of that language. I think South Indian school in Mumbai had to claim to be a Tamil school to qualify for religious minority status.
Kanchan Gupta is expressing his views very maturly where as Abhijith other way round . Abhijith is over matured like Ramgopal varma (film director)....needs some peroid of peace, may be at Himalaya....
Who was kanchan da talking about who came from America and other two were giggling?
I have to put my mind on reverse gear to keep up with the slow speed of granpa. He should just rest, eat good food and sleep at this age. Just take a long break sir. Leave all this worries of the world and mantra japa of ishta devta.
@@SkumarC see he is too experienced to ignore, and knows well which strings to pull
Nice discussion! Both Kanchan Gupta and AIM's views were well presented and defended persuasively. I partially side with Kanchan because the State at some point has to have these contact points with the religions (at least when it becomes a point of contention within the communities).
L
Within state when you have separation of powers, you have checks and balances such as those between judiciary and executive. If we agree to have a separation of powers between state and religion, don't we need similar checks and balances. Since there is no balancing religious institution for Hindus, the state even while claiming to be separate can execute enormous influence on the other by extrapolating its own powers such as protection of fundamental rights. In such a scenario, religion will most likely shift towards influencing politics as seen in the shift of RSS to BJP, from social hindutva to political hindutva.
Although the separation of powers is very useful on a practical level, such differences may not exist when looked at the more abstract forms of society such as civilizational goals. Just like role of state differs in emergencies like wars, and the role of the state evolves like education and heal becoming fundamental roles, the state may need some roles in some scenarios. In an ideal scenario, state may not even interfere in ending issues like untouchability (some other social organization should have done it), but when facing with a threat of near extinction and a need of urgency in unifying hindu society and polity to face external and internal threats, state may have to take bigger role in influencing religion.
Firat time i saw someone defeated undisputed debate champion AIM. nice one mr gupta.
The only religious group that has the potential to adapt to any modern practice without losing the spiritual identity is hindu religion. There are no absolute restrictions imposed on a hindu even though he is frowned upon eating beef. The religious restrictions evolved due to various contexts including ignorance, foreign invasions, pseudoscience and political factors. The resistance of hindus for reforms nowadays is also reactionary in nature due to governments inability to force much needed reforms in muslim personal laws. mosques and churches enjoying unrestricted freedoms where as temples are under strict controls. Also minority institutions enjoy autonomy and government patronage despite open anti hindu practices and policies while hindu festivals are derided and obstructed. hindu practices are ridiculed and institutions are constantly derided and defunded.
Hinduism is so advanced so Morden that there is nothing to Mordenise in it from religion or political point of view.
What I understand by Hinduism that freedom of choice. There are 7 billion people in the world and there are 7 billion ways to find “GOD”.
Only if people can understand this.
Everyone is Hindu because they have choice to practice there own religion.
Very simple but extremely difficult concept to understand!🙏🙏🙏
Lovely discussion...two right wing liberals going at it...one with modern idea of individuals rights ..other with old school of individual rights with keeping other people feelings in mind...such a small difference can also become a beautiful discussion..
Thanks
Great discussion.
AIM was merely presenting a counter-example.
41:50 beef
52:45 Christian idea of caste
1:07:45 damn grandma😂
1:11:52 legit
The state may not tell you personally, but it will punish you if it catches you stealing, or whatever.
Loooove this discussion
arreyaar cow means buffalo means veal means kobesteak in modern parlance
toomuch hypocrisy abt food, whn lowest castes wer used regularly as sexslaves....food +sex r totally related
Who has Kanchan Gupta in mind when he says that ‘ some one comes from America……. ‘ ?
humans r a collectn of paradoxes, nobody accepts th "head f th fmly/community/state/nation"
Kanchan da has a lot to teach both of you "charvakas".
Chanchan Da is a very good human being but is not exposed to Western wokeism live which is one day or other coming to India as a wave just like communism socialism and capitalism. Abhijit and Kushal "are"
This is what generation gap looks like!
Very informative. Thank you Kushal
Interesting
Too much condescension and verbal vomiting by AIM. There are certainly things he says I agree with. Casteism has no place in our society and those who continue to perpetuate upper and lower caste distinctions do not belong to this society that proclaimed lofty mahAvAkyas like "tat tvam asi."
But this "I know it all" demeanor of a man, who probably has read more books and traveled to more places than an average man, is quite repelling. Are there some who espouse casteist ideas and disseminate them? Yes, but are miniscule in number and are quite irrelevant in changing India. But people like Ashish Dhar are not proponents of this divisive idea. If I did understand Dhar rightly, he is simply saying VarNa has metaphysical basis, as explained by Sri Krishna in Gita, the human nature (svabhAva) is shaped by GuNa and karma accumulated thru many lifetimes and therefore, humans can be categorized under different stages of spiritual evolution. But this varNa is dynamic. It is never static. By sheer better prarAbdhas if someone finds himself or herself taking birth in a "satvik" household, he or she has the best opportunity to evolve into higher nature because of the mentoring and nurturing he or she may receive. However, birth alone will not decide one's varNa. How one transcends the forces of causality that sets a deterministic path, to avail one's agency to evolve to higher state, is what ultimately important. No Brahmin by birth, will remain closer to Brahman (the Absolute) if he or she uses the "orthodoxy" to treat fellow humans or even other life forms, intentionally, consciously, less than the divine he or she sees in himself or herself. Because ultimately, all forms of life are diverse manifestations of Sri Hari Himself! This is the very fundamental truth of sanatana dharma.
That is the idea behind varNa. It is never meant to create a divisive society or to create gradations in society. One has to go to the right source, seek the jnAna from real gurus like late Bannanje Govida acarya to learn about the truth. So, modernizing Hindu society means we should be going back to our Upanishadic ideals while retaining kshAtra consciousness that is awakened in Arjuna by Sri Krishna to fight adharma.
As for jAti, less said the better. These are very modern constructs. All kinship communities went up and down the social hierarchy as occupations and economic opportunities in the ancient world either opened up or declined. Some were relegated to the periphery of society and some moved into the core. Society was ergodic, meaning, across time and space various communities found themselves occupying different social positions. Sai Deepak talks abut the "pariahs" a Dalit community of Tamil Nadu, who were actually Brahmins once upon a time. Our society was fluid that way. It will continue to be this way. People become rich, they manage to stay rich for few generations and then they decline and become poor. Nothing sticks forever. What we, as a society, need to make sure is, the discrimination that stems from economic might of one community over another is not static and the need to maintain favorable power differential does not result in persecution and violence (kingdoms engaging in wars to expand territories did not harm commoners). That did not happen in India until the Abrahamic faiths invaded this land.
What is Abhijit chanting starting from 13:30?
I was thinking same...
I think om namah shivay 🤔
These are conventions after great thoughts & discussionns of our ancestors, which we do not know. MAY be due to the government restrictions by the jainism in its peak.Some banned pork,some banned entire meat products . Incest is almost a crime inmost of the present civilized countries. Marriage of brother & sister was a common among Pharoahhs. But it's bad results have been discovered. Incest can also produces babies similarly the beef can't be vomited by the human stomach. Onions,garlic,under ground tubers are not vomited by our stomach. But being civilized men & women we must respect the feelings of others. It will do no harm to mankind. There are so called High cast Hindus who speak on TV shows, that they are taking beef. If in any Muslim country it will be known thaT some one is eating pork. He will be murdered in cross chowk. These restrictions have been prescribed by our ancestors after giving some thought over the matter needs to be studied. There are places in India where bulls & buffaloes are eaten during religious faires . It is personal thing what to eat, what not to eat, but to play with the sentiments of vegetarians is a sin. In western countries many people have become vegan. You can't blame their choice & sentiments.
1:07:18 positive rights and negative rights me farak hai dada... socialist interventionism is bad
Good
👍
th guillotine hs been rolledout +im busy knittin my longlong scarf....
...
heyguys u cant talk abt hindu thought by skirting th uterus....
Kanchan Gupta is a traditionalist/conservative masquerading as a modern reformist hindu. He says he doesn't want to offend the majority, well majority today says something about not eating beef, tomorrow it starts saying those who don't go to temple are not hindus then in future says those who eats any kind of meat is not hindu, then if majority becomes shaviet and says non shiv bhakts are not hindus. He wouldn't wanna hurt and change himself accordingly..
Evey thought which doesn't see majority will check itself or remain as a sect. You can't say that you don't want any sect or any belief system other than the popular one. As that's what Hinduism as a whole defies. To say you wanna bring Hinduism to the level of other religions so that there's an equality of thought and common practices will make it abrahmanical like Christianity and Islam.
All being Said I agree with him about working around the system and that's where hindus don't show the jugad mentality that they should like other predatory religions.
AIM is blabbering and contradicting himself .
When this 6 Brahmins came in WB?
im not surprised tht abhijit dressesup as a girl coz thts th blackhole yre not addressin
It may not be a question of “certification” but of “predictably.” If I know he is a Jain, I will know his attitude towards garlic, potato or whatever. In a Hindu household, meat is not expected. You may eat it outside. This is not hypocracy,
1:28:35 is the VAGUEST statement someone could possibly make.
It's not vague . It's just , your past doesn't define your present , nor does your future . But your present can define both . Hinduism says this rather than the nonsense of your past doesn't define your future . The present which is a major concept for Christians was actually given as the tool of continuity by Shri Krishna , by teh Vedas , in different interpretation . The problem is people neither understand this nor do they understand why the west is either stuck in the past or the future and why we are also falling into the same loop .
Kanchan dada is very confused need Reeducation in China under xi jinping
BJP + RSS = Casteist no.1
Gupta is confused
It shocks me that Abhijit being a Hindu and being an intellectual thinks that eating beef is somehow related to freedom.
Eating beef is the leading cause of global warming and destruction of the world's ecosystems. It's disappointing to see a so called intellectual being ignorant about this.
The fact of the matter is Abhijit has a lot of knowledge but he still fails to make correct predictions or understand world issues due to his emotions getting in the way.
For mental faculties to work properly emotions need to be left behind. Logic and emotions can't go hand in hand
Moodra dei
???
A charvaka, a beef eater is discussing hindus and shastras, biggest joke of the centaury. Listen guys we are gud without you pls feel free to leave hindu dharma for good.
Mar jaunga pr Hindutva nahi chhodunga. Aur tum brahmanwaadi kaun hote ho bataane ko ki kisi ko kya pakadna hai kya chhodna hai?
@@amoghavarshanripatunga Lol you cared thats why you replied. And yes I will ask every beef eater to get away from my dhrama.
@@dr.harshitjain6410 "brahmanwadi" lol, pls free to b$rn in your own created hell of hate against brahmins, I will say it thousand times that beef eater aren't hindu.
@@ananttripathi4194 doesn't matter what you say.
A charvaka is an essential part of Hinduism. (Charvaka can be a beef eater or not, I personally hate meat and I am pure vegetarian)
This hatred against eating beef is a Buddhist idea amalgamated into Hinduism.
Prior to Buddha, Brahmins were the biggest beef eater. They use to Gau Medh Yagna.
@@dr.harshitjain6410 read shastras don't make claims after listening to this dumb charvaka and beef eater
Such basic takes, man. Have some nuanced discussions please
Not sarcasm