You make it harder to set up to release the ATC if loaded by having it attached at the shelf which is where you probably want the redirection krab to be and the ATC on the focal point.
Good point. I absolutely agree with your statement. In fact is easier to release the ATC/lower the climber when clipped to the actual master point vs. shelf - especially since the shelf then can be used to redirect the brake strand in order to lower/release. However in this example I focused more on having a comfortable belay position (clipping the device higher to the shelf) rather than dealing with a great chance of having to lower my climber. I believe every situation calls for a different approach. If I was assuming my climber to be failing and flailing a lot during the climb, I would have maybe opted for your suggestion. Even though it also possible to use one cam of the three (usually the highest) as a redirection for lowering/release. I think each of our approaches works very well depending on the situation. Keep in mind that in climbing, with technical systems, there is never "one way" to achieve a certain outcome. Every system should be weighed out for liekly events to happen . This climb below me was a climb that very less likely needed a lower/release. And even if that was needed, there is another way to achieve the lower (such as clipping a redirection carabiner to the highest piece). Thanks a lot for your comment. I really appreciate your help and input.
I’m confused how a fall would be stopped using an atc this way. Looks like there is only a single bend in the rope (at the carabiner). Doesn’t the atc only generate enough friction to stop a fall when the rope is bent twice (once at the carabiner and again over the lip of the atc)? In other words this looks similar to if the follower were belaying with their brake hand above the device. If someone could explain that would be great. Thanks
It’s in ‘guide mode’. Have a look at something like a petzl reverso to see how they work. Very useful for direct belays off an anchor or when you have two ropes to deal with.
Chillino Rock Climbing hey there! Girth hitching certain materials can fail due to rapid friction wear, especially with those that are more actively dynamic when using them. I've seen them fail by cutting through eachother especially when they do not rotate or remove the girth hitch periodically as many don't. And the "pas" (sorry for the 2nd s--damn autocorrect! ) refers to your daisy chain you're girth hitched to. Admittedly, you may never never have this system fail, it's just something to be aware of. Climb on my friend!
A PAS isn't going to cut through your belay loop and your belay loop isn't going to cut through a PAS because neither one are moving nor causing any real friction against one another. Girth hitching a PAS or similar personal anchoring system is fine and has been done for decades. Can you point to any documented instance of someone getting hurt or killed because they girth hitched a PAS to their harness? I'm no certified guide, but I've never seen anybody use a carabiner to attach a PAS to their harness. Go look at any PAS-type piece of gear at the manufacturers website and show me one that instructs users to use a carabiner. They all recommend a simple girth hitch to the belay loop.
Mike Haftel really? You know this first hand? Unfortunately, they can and will fail. I've seen it. It happens most often when climbers leave the pas girth hitched indefinitely. The hitch wears a pattern in the belay loop/harness points and after a bit of use, a small shock load can be all it takes to cut through. Friction cuts are real. But hey, you can keep on doing what you please.....saftey third.
Mike Haftel Todd Skinner died in the 2000's on the leaning tower because the girth hitched sling on his belay loop held it in place and did not let it wear evenly against the tie in points. It wore through and he fell to his death while rappelling.
Michael Stahl you can use (other) assisted braking belay devices instead of the ATC guide, such as GriGri or other. I am personally not familiar with the Mad Rock lifeguard so I cannot tell for sure what the specifics on this device are. I will look into it and let you know here on YT
Michael Stahl we looked into the mad rock lifeguard and it is totally applicable for belayingdirectly off the anchor! looks like a nice neat and compact device. have fun with it
Don Heinz. Both, shelf and masterpoint are equally valid clip in points for belayer and climber. Clipping the belay device into the shelf is often an advantage because it automatically positions the belay device higher. This helps when pulling up rope for belaying.
I always clip into the loop and keep the whole anchor under tension with my body when I am belaying from the shelf. As to not shock-load any part of the system which could happen if you belay from the loop instead as it would not always be under direct tension.
Notice the rope attached to the climber which goes through the ATC from the top, around the carabiner and out the lower end. When a climber falls, the top end of the rope in the ATC is forced downwards, putting weight and friction on the device. The belayers job is to only pull in the slack as they dont take the weight.
If I only have a regular ATC device, could I clip it in in the same spot, then set up a prusik on the climber's rope from the anchor, to achieve a similar effect? Is there a reason thats a terrible idea?
Eagle B, if you only have a regular atc, belay from your harness and redirect it through a locked biner on the anchor point. Upside down the atc does not brake. But, its best to have an atc guide that is designed for this.
It's easier to manage if you clip into the rear loops of the "shelf"
Helpful. Thanks. I don't believe I've seen this before or in textbook format. Good work.
Best video out there on the topic. Thanks for making it straight forward
You make it harder to set up to release the ATC if loaded by having it attached at the shelf which is where you probably want the redirection krab to be and the ATC on the focal point.
Good point. I absolutely agree with your statement. In fact is easier to release the ATC/lower the climber when clipped to the actual master point vs. shelf - especially since the shelf then can be used to redirect the brake strand in order to lower/release. However in this example I focused more on having a comfortable belay position (clipping the device higher to the shelf) rather than dealing with a great chance of having to lower my climber. I believe every situation calls for a different approach. If I was assuming my climber to be failing and flailing a lot during the climb, I would have maybe opted for your suggestion. Even though it also possible to use one cam of the three (usually the highest) as a redirection for lowering/release. I think each of our approaches works very well depending on the situation. Keep in mind that in climbing, with technical systems, there is never "one way" to achieve a certain outcome. Every system should be weighed out for liekly events to happen . This climb below me was a climb that very less likely needed a lower/release. And even if that was needed, there is another way to achieve the lower (such as clipping a redirection carabiner to the highest piece). Thanks a lot for your comment. I really appreciate your help and input.
no fluff, clear info. Nice job!
Matthew Wilson Thank you for your comment! much appreciated.
Thanks for the great video.
Nice thanks 4 this very informative video.
I’m confused how a fall would be stopped using an atc this way. Looks like there is only a single bend in the rope (at the carabiner). Doesn’t the atc only generate enough friction to stop a fall when the rope is bent twice (once at the carabiner and again over the lip of the atc)? In other words this looks similar to if the follower were belaying with their brake hand above the device. If someone could explain that would be great. Thanks
It’s in ‘guide mode’. Have a look at something like a petzl reverso to see how they work. Very useful for direct belays off an anchor or when you have two ropes to deal with.
Nice vid. Only change I would recommend would be to attach his pass to his harness with a locker avoiding the problematic girth hitch.
Christopher Dunlap Thanks for your comment! I am wondering why ithe girth hitch is problematic? and also what do you mean with pass?
Chillino Rock Climbing hey there! Girth hitching certain materials can fail due to rapid friction wear, especially with those that are more actively dynamic when using them. I've seen them fail by cutting through eachother especially when they do not rotate or remove the girth hitch periodically as many don't. And the "pas" (sorry for the 2nd s--damn autocorrect! ) refers to your daisy chain you're girth hitched to. Admittedly, you may never never have this system fail, it's just something to be aware of. Climb on my friend!
A PAS isn't going to cut through your belay loop and your belay loop isn't going to cut through a PAS because neither one are moving nor causing any real friction against one another. Girth hitching a PAS or similar personal anchoring system is fine and has been done for decades. Can you point to any documented instance of someone getting hurt or killed because they girth hitched a PAS to their harness? I'm no certified guide, but I've never seen anybody use a carabiner to attach a PAS to their harness. Go look at any PAS-type piece of gear at the manufacturers website and show me one that instructs users to use a carabiner. They all recommend a simple girth hitch to the belay loop.
Mike Haftel really? You know this first hand? Unfortunately, they can and will fail. I've seen it. It happens most often when climbers leave the pas girth hitched indefinitely. The hitch wears a pattern in the belay loop/harness points and after a bit of use, a small shock load can be all it takes to cut through. Friction cuts are real. But hey, you can keep on doing what you please.....saftey third.
Mike Haftel
Todd Skinner died in the 2000's on the leaning tower because the girth hitched sling on his belay loop held it in place and did not let it wear evenly against the tie in points. It wore through and he fell to his death while rappelling.
this chill bro started wearing a helmet too late.
lol!!! ouch
Could this same technique be used with an assisted braking device instead of a guide ATC? Specifically a Mad Rock Lifeguard.
Michael Stahl you can use (other) assisted braking belay devices instead of the ATC guide, such as GriGri or other. I am personally not familiar with the Mad Rock lifeguard so I cannot tell for sure what the specifics on this device are. I will look into it and let you know here on YT
Michael Stahl we looked into the mad rock lifeguard and it is totally applicable for belayingdirectly off the anchor! looks like a nice neat and compact device. have fun with it
Chillino Rock Climbing Thanks!
does anyone know what the ring on the opposite side of the belay device is for? I have had to think about which end to clip to when doing this.
If the device is weighted in autoblock mode you run a cord through it so you can pull down and get leverage to release the device.
Wouldn't we rather have the climber belayed through the anchor point and the belayer protected by the shelf? It seems backward in the video.
Don Heinz. Both, shelf and masterpoint are equally valid clip in points for belayer and climber. Clipping the belay device into the shelf is often an advantage because it automatically positions the belay device higher. This helps when pulling up rope for belaying.
I always clip into the loop and keep the whole anchor under tension with my body when I am belaying from the shelf. As to not shock-load any part of the system which could happen if you belay from the loop instead as it would not always be under direct tension.
I think the shelf does not exist unless something is clipped in the masterpoint so this add a vote to the belay device on the shelf.
Am I missing something or is the belayer committing the supreme sin of letting go of the rope each time he moves his hand up to take up more slack?
Notice the rope attached to the climber which goes through the ATC from the top, around the carabiner and out the lower end. When a climber falls, the top end of the rope in the ATC is forced downwards, putting weight and friction on the device. The belayers job is to only pull in the slack as they dont take the weight.
Turn up your audio.
If I only have a regular ATC device, could I clip it in in the same spot, then set up a prusik on the climber's rope from the anchor, to achieve a similar effect? Is there a reason thats a terrible idea?
Eagle Bird Creations prusic is not for dynamic loading like in the case of fall. it gets burnt.
Eagle Bird Creations i wouldn t use it. better an uiaa knot on the carabiner.
okay, makes sense. thanks.
Eagle B, if you only have a regular atc, belay from your harness and redirect it through a locked biner on the anchor point. Upside down the atc does not brake. But, its best to have an atc guide that is designed for this.
Thank you for this video. It's very helpful