Battle Breakdown: The Fellowship of the Ring in Pathfinder 2E (Monster Grab, Escape and Aid Actions)
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2021
- What if the Watcher in the Water scene from The Fellowship of the Ring was an encounter in Pathfinder 2nd Edition? This video uses that fight as a backdrop for explaining how monster Grabs work, as well as the Escape and Aid actions.
This video is sponsored by Roll For Combat, a Paizo official actual play podcast! Check out all their great content here: rollforcombat.com/
See the following videos for more information:
Grab, Constrict and Escape (Monster Abilities 1): • Pathfinder (2e): Grab,...
Initiative and Surprise in Pathfinder: • Pathfinder (2e): Basic...
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If you enjoyed this video, make sure you check out my Battle Breakdown for The Karate Kid: ruclips.net/video/0Sne48M5WDY/видео.html
I loved the part:
"Frodo complains about..."
"GM Tolkien doesn't care what Frodo thinks"
"Frodo complains again that it's unfair"
"GM Tolkien decides that it's better for narrative" xD
You are the best Dave!
I thought nothing can beat Karate Kid Breakdown!
Boromir (rolls Recall Knowledge, succeeds): "They have a Cave Troll."
Aragorn (player): "Bitch, I'm the Ranger, stop stepping on my role."
Player, "You can't force moved with grab action."
GM, "True, but my monster isn't using a grab action he has a special ability called Grasping Tentacle which allows him to grab and force move with a single attack action."
Player, "Well played."
When I have creatures of significant size grab my players, I often aesthetically/narratively have them being held aloft and/or being swung around, but don’t enforce any mechanical penalties based on that elevated grapple.
As someone who heavily homebrews myself I think GM Tolkien definitely made a mistake there with the impromptu free lifting of Frodo. Not that he shouldn't have done it, I think it's cool and makes sense given the situation, but rather the issue is in how he explained it. If the players feel as though the GM can change anything he wants on a whim, then it ruins the stakes. It's the same reason I don't fudge dice rolls: if the players get a whiff of something they feel is arbitrary or unfair, then the game loses some of its meaning.
That being said, it was still cool, so I've got an alternative solution:
Even if the *real* reason was just because it's cool or exciting, the answer he gave Frodo should've been that it's a part of the writhing arms activity or some other special ability. That could even explain why it only grabbed Frodo, because if it wanted to use this ability it couldn't be grabbing more than one character. This is obviously homebrew, but in my experience players are much more comfortable with homebrewed monsters and abilities than they are with homebrewed moments and coming up with things on the fly because of some arbitrary sense of what you think would be climactic. And, in the end, they don't need to know that this ability was changed on the spot :smirk:
I don't really fault GM Tolkien here, though, it sounds like he was pretty frustrated with Frodo complaining at this point, so I can understand the sudden outburst on his part. Besides, how does Frodo even know that's something that The Watcher can't do? Sounds to me like he's looking up all the encounters ahead of time, and if that's the case no wonder GM Tolkien feels like he has to homebrew them!
P.S. Another benefit of saying it's a monster ability that you homebrewed is that you can freely choose to not allow it later on a different creature, or even a player if they manage to grow for one reason or another.
Loved the Failed Recall Knowledge check clip!
I'm surprised anyone stuck around for that! LOL
I LOVE these!
Glad to hear it! :)
wow, this is GENIUS. Amazing way to explain all the intricacies of the rules
Glad you liked it!
Dude...
Cannot put into words how satisfying and cool it is to have the gameplay mechanical breakdown of some of the most classic fantasy scenes, which we are really keeping in mind when we play this game, to show off how it works vs how it looks.
This whole guide playlist has alleviated a LOT of the guessing I've been doing as a new GM picking up PF2e with the remaster (though I've played 3.5/PF1e since maybe 2011).
AWESOME videos!
Awesome! I'm glad the videos are helping!
I'm shocked how much this has made me critically think about my own encounters and enemy designs.
Awesome!
Dude, this is absolutely AWESOME! Please continue these as you're able.... what a huge help to us visual and experiential learners!! 👍😁
That's the plan!
Lol! I loved the "Frodo complains the encounter is not fair". I literally laughed out loud.
That ending was absolute gold
Frodo is such a rules lawyer ;)
Love this format.
well Frodo is a whinny character, that all that he do in the move, and the books he weemp about his pain and complaing about he's path..... (at least if you just read the surface)
These videos are really good.
Also respect for GM Tolkien for what he did. Rule of cool applies to monsters too.
I'd have the extra pull and lift into the air be it's own Free special action. When taken auto drags twice and lifts the target in the air where it is restrained.
Next turn The Watcher takes his turn last, regardless of innitiative order, on that turn if the target is still grappled it can use the Swallow Whole 3 action ability that for the party that level is instant death.
Not sure RAW friendly but creates tension (despite basically no danger as the PCs can easily cut the tentacle) and drama. It looks cool and deadly to the players and they will likely talk about how they narrowly avoided death working together rather than anything else.
Given the size difference, I'd say it was plausible. I'd also follow up with the rejoiner of "Do you want to get dragged underwater and have to hold your breath? Yeah, didn't think so".
Good point!
the part where the watcher "delayed his turn" could be more attributed to this:
3rd round: it misses all it's attacks
then Pippin, Mary, and Sam spent all three of their actions to get up and Ready their actions to run as soon as Boromir and Aragon are closer, Legolas gets that crit as you said and Boromir and Aragon approach the Cave using all 3 stride actions,
4th round: the watcher attempts to collapse the tunnel entrance, all members continue to stride with all 3 actions,
final round the watcher succeeds in collapsing the entrance to the tunnel with the party out of the way of the falling debris. End of Encounter.
i hope you do more of these, they're really good
Amazing! Well done.
Awesome! Thanks!
This is AMAZING. Your best video so far, love it!
Thanks -- I appreciate it!
Yay! I love these kind of videos too!
Thank you for making another one.
You're very welcome!
This is awesome!
More of these please!!!!
Really well done!
Thanks!
Loved it!
Need more videos like this
Favorite series on the channel. These are fantastic. These really help my players understand moment to moment combat gameplay.
Glad to hear it!
That. Was. Awesome! More, please!!!
Wonderful! Fantastic! More! More!
This is amazing. Great idea to narrative this iconic scene in pathfinder terms. Both entertaining and hammering in some core rule concepts from PF2.
Thanks!
I loved this so much!
Thanks!
This is an incredible video, I love it!
Thanks!
Excellent! Finally Drag action in play :) Needed that sooo much or else cinematic encounters like this couldn't happen in Pathfinder 2E :)
OMG! this is so awesome. Need more. Kudos for your amazing channel!
Thanks!
Very cool idea for a video, well done
Thanks!
I likely would have allowed the tentacles to drag and lift Frodo the extra distance, but if I knew the players well, I’d have made it a separate ability ahead of time so I could show it to them when asked about it and keep the rules for this specific encounter consistent. It helps avoid the “DM is just winging it mentality”
awesome.
More of these!
Loved the stinger. :D
I've thought about this sort of thing in 1e. My favorite fight is the first encounter of Will Turner and Jack Sparrow. The fencing swashbuckler vs the braggard swashbuckler! Or possibly mastermind rogue? "You look familiar. Have I threatened you before?" or whatever. I like the style of these videos, regardless. Nice job!
Fantastic video, and a great choice of movie/battle for the demo. :)
LOTR is always a great go-to.
In Frodo's defense (and don't get used to me defending him), GM Tolkien was railroading the hell out of this campaign. See Matt Colville's video about sandbox vs railroad.
hi, great video as always.
I have a possible answer about how the watcher pulled frodo, and it is because after it attacked the hobbits with Writhing Arms it was an attack that hit the four hobbits but it was a critical hit vs Frodo and the GM took a card from the Critical Hit Deck: Surprise opening (bludgeoning): crit effect: You gain one action that you can use before the end of your turn to use an attack action against the target (in this case dragging Frodo).
Awesome flick reference! Been hosting a GM 101 Night for a few of my players lately. This will be nice for them to see actions in play and get the info vs my info dump hahaha
If we can get one on Trip and Monks (wolf jaws)/weapon trip traits, that would be helpful.
And Gandalf must have been out of spell slots and chose to pass his turns without using any actions.
I confess, I'd probably cheat. "Hey, Grab doesn't let him move me like that?" "Special monster ability." Since monster abilities can do pretty much anything ... just add 'moving people around' to the text, yes?
Great idea, I love this video! What about the Battle of Helms Klamm to introduce the new troop rules? Also, what's your take on RAW that Legolas is able to slide on the shield?
Frodo complaining had me cackling hahaha
I would just have it in the monster's statblock that it could move someone it's grabbed several squares. I believe there already are monsters that can do that, like the Balor.
And I suppose the Watcher must be hunting. Grab the prey, knock out the defenders!!
Might i suggest the final sword fight from the anime movie sword of the stranger.
I like the cinematic 15-20 second rounds, 6 second rounds always felt to short.
I dig the video, just curious i thought in the errata that the attack penalty doesn't affect to skills bonus but still counts in the case of attacking after it. Either way cool idea and nice build on the watcher in the water.
No, that is not what the errata said.
The errata said that athletics checks and Escape were not "attack rolls", which is a specific term in the rules. This means that traits like finesse, agile, or critical specializations don't apply to those skill checks. However, they still apply MAP as usual.
Now, if you ask me, that was a dumb errata and I prefer that all those traits apply to attack skill checks.
Do you have anymore of that homebrew?
Dude, can we get that Watcher in the Water stat block? It looks RAD!
Here you go! Use with caution. LOL drive.google.com/file/d/1Z3wBBcqNkUnZFzfB_wn3MvX-Zajxeuq7/view?usp=sharing
The constant frustration that pf2e does not have consistent rules for grabbing and dragging or pushing rears its head (tentacles) again
Maybe a battle breakdown from Willow....
3:05. But what would have happened to the hobbits' Aid if the watcher had its turn before Frodo? Lets assume the creature keeps dragging, is it impossible for Frodo to receive the help because he is no longer next to them?
I dig GM Tolkien's style.
Since the watcher has Improved Grab with strikes with its Arms, why did it need to spend an action to grab with the Arms during the Writhing Arms action in round 2? Shouldn't that have been free and allowed the 3rd action to be Drag again? Are we supposed to read monster entries so that abilities like Improved grab only apply with the listed Melee attack line and not other abilities that use those melee strikes? It seems weird that it can grab for free with 1 tentacle, but not when deploying more than one tentacle.
Sam's weapon was a shortsword, shouldn't his MAP have been -4?
now that I think about it, where were gimli and gandalf during this encounter? maybe their players were late to the campaing
So with both Merry & Pippin aiding Frodo, and success for both not adding because they are both circumstance bonuses, would it have been better for Pippin to ready to aid Merry who aids Frodo? With the idea that maybe Pippin could help Merry get a crit success?
Good video, but where's Gimli?
Critical hit deck? It's the first time i've heard of this
paizo.com/products/btq024tn/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Critical-Hit-Deck
commenting to feed the ONE ALGORITHM TO RULE THEM ALL
What example next? Well, "They have a Cave Troll...,"
Gandalf spends the entire combat not helping. Then fails the recall knowledge check to find the path. Oof
"Frodo's player complains that it's unfair he got grabbed while everybody else was just knocked down." Sucks being the main protagonist, don't it, Frito?
wait critical strike dekk? what this?
also i'd love for you to take a scene from the owerlord anime. a lvl 100 litch is rahter hard to hit even to experienced adventurers
Thus proving my suspicion:
Tolkien was a Dick GM. 😂
Thank you for these.
O wow? Attack against tentacle wouldn't deal damage to the watcher?
Btw please do not teach things like GM can do whatever they like, there's too much of those GMs already. "GM Tolkien" basically threw player consent into the garbage.
This makes sense in that say either or both Aragorn or Boromir critically hit the Watcher, they could potentially kill it by just cutting at its tentacles. This also allows them to attack the Watcher and help their allies by not having to move further into Greater Difficulty Terrain or having to start swimming to reach it.
I'll completely disagree with you on teaching GM's can do whatever they like. As long as they are consistent, then it should be fine, if not, that's not the GM for you or well anybody. There are times where the rules cannot cover everything and in my opinion having Large, Huge or even Gargantuan creatures grab somebody doesn't make much sense if they're not lifted up at all.