Contours of Lolicon
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Full Audio Here!
• Contours of Lolicon: F...
Third part of a multi-part series with Patrick Galbraith, author of The Moe Manifesto!
You can find the first part here:
• What is Moe(phobia)?
You can find the second part here:
• The Other Miyazaki
Check out The Moe Manifesto here:
amzn.to/2w1YstZ
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Discord (Not Mine): / discord
Twitter: / pauseandselect
Patreon: / pauseandselect
Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/paus...
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Drawings courtesy of Lorpo!
otsume.deviant...
Footage:
高橋留美子 原画展初日挨拶
Japanese Kawaii LOLITA FASHION MODEL JURA interview｜ロリータファッションモデルじゅらインタビュー
Lolita (1962, 1997)
Lolita fashion show ｜ALICE and the PIRATES
Akihabara Footage from Motionplaces.com
マエパツヒメカ／Lolitina
Tokyo Traintracks (from Videvo)
GFF01ガーリズム ロリータファッションショー Girlism Lolita& Girly Fashion Show
Magnetic Tape - 4942
Stacey Dooley Investigates Young Sex for Sale in Japan
Manga International Library at Meiji University
NDL PR video (English)
斎藤 環（精神科医・批評家）×大澤 聡（批評家・メディア史研究者） 批評の奇妙な思春期――1980年代／文学／メディア
ロリコンと化す野々村議員UC Converted
Huge thanks to Deerstalker Pictures for their work on "The Secret Life of the Lolita" Parts 1 and 2, of which you can find here:
Part 1: • The Secret Life of the...
Part 2: • The Secret Life of the...
Anime:
Aim for the Top! Gunbuster
Astarotte no Omocha!
Bakemonogatari
Boku dake ga Inai Machi
Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai!
Clannad
Daicon III
Daicon IV
Dance in the Vampire Bund
Eromanga-Sensei
Fune wo Amu
Gabriel Dropout
Gate Jietai Kanochi Nite, Kaku Tatakaeri
Ghost in the Shell
Gochuumon wa Usagi Desu Ka
Gosick
Junjou Romantica
Kanon (Gameplay video)
Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon
Kodomo no Jikan (OVA, Nigakki)
Lolita Anime (WonderKids variant)
Lupin III The Castle of Cagliostro
Made in Abyss
Mahoromatic
Mahou Tenshi Creamy Mami ~Lovely Serenade~
Majokko Megu-chan
Masamune-kun no Revenge
Minky Momo
Mitsudomoe
Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack
Nanatsuiro Drops
Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
Neo Angelique ~Abyss~
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Nisemonogatari
No Game; No Life
Ore no Imouto
Otaku no Video
Ouran High School Host Club
Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt
Puni Puni Poemy
Sailor Moon
Shounen Maid
Space Battleship Yamato
Spirited Away
Steel Angel Kurumi
Tetsujin 28-go
This Ugly Yet Beautiful World
Urusei Yatsura (TV Show, Only You, Beautiful Dreamer)
Uchiyama Aki's Lolita Anime (Sick Aki-chan, Milk-drinking Doll, Peeing Game)
Venus to Mamoru
Watashi ga Moutete Doushinda
Youjo Senki
Audio:
Audio from Lee Rosevere's "Under Suspicion and "Thoughtful"
Utterance from WNYC's "Porn's Fine Lines", which you can hear here:
www.wnyc.org/s...
The rest of the music by Skrullz / wW2Dragon 
Кино
I'm really sad watching this in 2024 knowing that patrick's hopes of better communication across the language barriers due to better access to the dialogue hasn't felt like it came true. it feels like the discussion has become increasingly reductive online, with even less people doing the research, diving further and further into gut-reaction moral panic over even Thinking about the topic. thank you for this video, and for shining light on patrick's writing, as I think it's even more important now than it ever has been.
people are very judgemental, especially in the context of social media (which creates a need to promote an image or be alienated from social groups and isolated)
It's disturbing to see how taboo, fiction, and fondness for cute aesthetics are demonized unless fitted into a very narrow interpretation of moral consensus.
6 Years ago...
What is lolicon = This Video
Now...
What is lolicon = 😭😭😭😭😭
I really appreciate that you took the time to research and talk to people and come to a more nuanced understanding of this topic!
Great vid as always. I want more lolicon discussion because the arguments are always so interesting. Nothing should be dismissed with out in-depth research.
I wholeheartedly agree. Thank you for the kind words.
Always glad to hear New Perspectives and experience history. Thank you for taking the time to make this such a slick production.
people become emotional when it comes to things like this and don't think rationally. they want to harm people for putting ink on paper in a way that they don't like.
I guess your a pedo defender then.
@@Stillonyx what, their retarded brain? Lol yeah sure tell yourself whatever that makes you feel better
@@Stillonyx nah
damn i really miss when people had common sense and cared about ACTUAL children
Pedophile
With new people just getting into Anime and getting culturally shocked, it's rather annoying having so many people complaining about a lot of stuff that has been ingrained in the industry for a very long time now.
People don't like pedophiles shocker
@danielellis6327 Lolicons are literally not pedophiles. Dipshit.
Lolicon is something I have always had a great deal of trouble understanding. This video was very useful. I still have to do more research, though.
it is funny. Perhaps 5 years ago there was progress on this subject but I would say that nowadays things seem like to be back on the starting point overseas because of the wave of new anime fans that joined I guess 3 years ago when the pandemic started being subjected to something like lolicon for the first time and it doesn't help that any discussion that arises leads to no where because of the unwilligness to understand or unwilligness to do any real research except going to google translate and type "lolicon" in there just for it to get translated into p*dofile and basing their entire arguement around it without a care whether it gets debunked or not.
I'm a neutral individual on the subject. I'm not an anime fan and always felt the loli stuff was weird but that's it. It was until last year I saw loli trending on Twitter and could not believe the amount of tweets I saw people calling others p*dos over cartoons. It lead me to research it extensively and try to reason with these people with these beliefs but it rarely turns out well. They never want to listen and just believe what they want to believe.
It's difficult to make advances on this subject because of others sheer unwillingness to learn about it. It's been very tiring.
@@MetaKirb7 danm brony , how old is your channel description XD ??....
@@iamLI3 Made it when I was a wee lad back when Super Smash Brothers Brawl was new- so that old haha
@@MetaKirb7 lawl
It's less funny and more sad 🥲
What is really important to understand is that when it comes to Otaku and Anime/Manga culture, it is for the love and affection of a fictional character.
NOT a real person.
People to mistake this is putting many innocent Otaku in danger of being accused of something that they have never done.
And it goes both genders, male otaku love anime girls, female otaku love anime boys.
Gross af
@@garysanders7935 gross by principal but true
@@garysanders7935 It is gross in the mind of whom can't concieve the difference of what's reality and fiction. Sorry my guy but if you can't differentiate the two then just gtfo
@@garysanders7935 Gross doesnt make it wrong, this is a serious ethical statement.. the potential consequences of it being ignored because its gross is not good and is ignorance.
The problem is I've been there, I'm literally living proof of being harassed for liking a fictional minor or shippin minor and adult platonically. I know it's wrong but it was so intense I cried in the toilet for a fking hour cus I was so misunderstood.
I’m really surprised that those previous documents regarding the subculture are not translated for the world to view. Anytime someone argues that lolicon is wrong, it’s more from a moral point of view, along with internet definition of terms. I completely agree that both sides should have a debate with proper evidence rather than assumption because it’s important to be genuine.
i think an even deeper change that should be made is a generalized moving away from moralistic outrage arguments and more utilitarian arguments: "what harm does it cause and what can we actually do to maximize human freedom while also maximizing human safety?" these are the most important angles that this issue should be viewed from, atleast for now. unfortunately, those on the other side of the issue are not interested in actually understanding or actually solving any problems that are actually harmful to real people in the real world, its a moral crusade for social clout. they will deliberately avoid things that might make them more sympathetic to their enemy and will only seek out content to either support their current bias, or to provide an outlet for their hatred. they are not generally capable of entering a mindset where learning and nuanced thought can take place when it comes to this sort of content, they wouldnt allow themselves to even if they could.
this is how cults form...
well see this is where your mistake lies
the sjw not only does not believe it is important to be genuine , they have been brainwashed into not being able to even understand the concept , for them the world is nothing but an endless struggle of might makes right , and as we know the old saying goes all is fair in love and war.....
The animation and video editing are so beatiful. Just a joy to watch!
(of course, the topic and the content are interesting, just wanted to highlight the visual aspect)
Thanks for the kind worlds Cyber-Brain. Cool name by the way.
@@PauseandSelect whats that anime called 15 minutes and 46 seconds in? the one with amazingly clean crisp clear graphics!
@@quantummechanized2975 I believe that was from Ghost in the Shell: Innocence. I had a lot of very highly detailed 3DCGI pan shots like that and it would make sense as it leads into shots from the first movie as well.
i feel your stance on the difference between reality and fiction is somewhat muddled as you treat the two as completely separate when in reality much of the media that exists informs and shapes our reality. When people say they're a lolicon, yes it is a preference for a certain type of anime character but that type of anime character is children. The body types the mannerisms all of its is pulled from reality to some degree.
atenahena I suppose it depends on the person, but types of characters I love to see in fiction are wildly different from the types of people I like to interact with in real life. I used to love dark, mysterious manga characters, but when in real life, they're the people I hate the most for lack of communication and transparency. I think there is a strong difference in reality and fiction.
In this specific case, I know people who love Lolita characters in manga, but don't really like children that much. Several of them I know personally like to date older men/women.
atenahena Hm. I suppose I see where you're both coming from. And I do definitely agree with your point about the characters being drawn from reality, certainly with many mannerisms, but I have to disagree with the body type. In fiction, age isn't literal, so if I were to draw a busty woman and declare that she's 10, I couldn't then hold it over an onlooker that they're a pedophile for finding her attractive. When I see these characters in popular media, they're clearly drawn with sexual characteristics (e.g. curvey or wide hips or breasts, developed legs) that actual children clearly do not possess. In that context, I think it would be absurd to associate someone's attraction to an "underage" character with pedophilia, as much as it would be to do so with people that enjoy saying "daddy" to their sexual partner.
hmm, i suppose its a spectrum, there are many people i see who make it very implicit in their stories that the characters being drawn ARE children but its less clear with others. However, with your curvy lolis arguments, i would say that in that case its a merging of the two ideas i think, it's a child but she also has the sex appeal of an adult to some degree. however, that is just speculation on my part
That only applies to the uncommon forms of it that take on a more realistic stylization that resembles reality close enough to where the attraction cannot be deduced down to the extreme anime caricature. Of course it's probable that pedophiles would be more inclined to be attracted to lolicon but it wouldn't always go both ways. I've heard of many who abhor the idea of child sexualization and are just as if not more against child abuse than your average joe, however they still get off to loli hentai. Because not only do they differentiate fiction from reality, they don't even necessarily have to because it's so obvious how dissimilar they are.
It is as simply as knowing the difference between reality and fiction, you dont see real life little girls acting or looking like anime lolis, i do know that some do not differentiate between them but that on its own is a mental illness, also there are some girls that are 22 years old+ with that body type and they dress like lolis to gather a following fanbase, saying that this body type is imposible is the same as saying that girls with big boobs dont exist, and saying otherwise is sexist and all that bullcrap.
one problem I have is that people that want lolicon banned often don't care about rape doujin and stuff, so that's weird as well, why is lolicon so much worse than rape in their eyes? it's both fiction
I'm pretty sure all of it is seen as degenerate but porn of adults doing BDSM and roleplaying exist so it's probably an "oh thats porn of a child" thats swaying those people's opinion, not the fact that it's degenerate porn.
Oh sweet summer child カロ, you obviously haven't stepped into the deep end of ero doujinshi if you think "porn of adults doing BDSM and roleplaying" is anywhere comparable to the kind of stuff Etzlo1 might be talking about.
it's called porn because it's fake
they have tons of desires, I suppose
honestly though how does one see normal rape (still horrible) as worse than child porn which is basically child rape since they're unable to make decisions of a mentally and morally mature adult
but a non-sexual loli with romantic interest is still edgy
... mean it's animated so what does it matter in reality,
but someone's screwed in the head here
Turtle God Lets all ban catagories except vanila!
I think its because BDSM kinks are accepted as strange sexual desires everyone/most people have. Rape fantasy is common so it's accepted. While straight up child sex and charaters that look like children is morally wrong to many people. Children having sex isn't a fetish it's against the law.
For anyone who is interested in the rise of Lolicon culture in Japan, I advise you looking up Tanizaki's novel "Naomi" and the brief "Naomism" culture it spawned in Japan. The book is essentially Japanese "Lolita".
I just found this book in the hallway in my apartment building. I sat it on my bookshelf. I guess I'll give it a read, I just thought the synopsis on the back sounded interesting
Lolita is a american book
@@Rycma550
Written by a Russian
amazing work, a breath of fresh air truly
This doesn't really discuss how there is a fetishization with pubescent characters and how there are multiple r18 doujins featuring underage characters. This video touches more on the pre-history of shoujo. some of these featured animes I'm assuming you were trying to persuade that this is "loli", such as creamy mami and sailor moon we're for a girl demographic, I don't see how that intertwines with lolicon. regardless of fiction, it's still an overwhelming sense that these adults are taking their admiration to "cute looking" characters into doing sexual acts.
Kokone Kurisu Thats probably because that's the videos entire point. It's not meant to be a commentary of the dark side of lolicon its meant to show not only the cultural disconnect that lolicon presents and the possibly misinformation surrounding it. Not every video made about lolicon has to say "child porn is bad mmkay?" We already fucking know about the creepy fetishization of some lolicon works.
Loli in definition, is a pubescent looking or underage character. i'm not discussing characters who are 18+ who look like little girls, i'm talking about 12 year old girls illustrated in a sexual doujinshi.
than what's the purpose of this video if it only discusses it's lighter tones? if you're going to discuss a controversial topic such as loli/cons, it's best to bring up it's darker reasonings
Kokone Kurisu Yeah he kind of skirted around the topic. I'm sure that he meant "that's not what lolicon's main definition is in japan" though since he basically says that in the video at some point. He probably didn't figure that focusing on what we think lolicon is was as important
I do really enjoy these discussions in the comments, really delve a lot into psychological and physiological topics. I can completely understand the misunderstanding put forth here, but just as mentioned in the video, *clearly* there are two male caterpillars drawn copulating, they're caterpillars. This represents our dissociation with reality, our separation. We understand they are male, but their features are so unrealistic and far from reality that, when there is *actual* footage or drawings of *actual* children, that look like children in real life, then we have a problem. Young looking anime girls that are far off of any distinct age is the reality check. Personally, as a "lolicon" -- the best way to admit it really -- it's an attraction either affectionately or sexually to innocence. Cute innocence, or cute girls/boys that have a naive and oblivious personality, if you're into the personality aspect as well. As one person had mentioned above, i also internalize it. It's something that's very appealing to me, in no sexual manner personally. I'm very girly, and in a way this subculture of very moe youthful innocence is appealing. I can understand why most people might find this sexually appealing as well, and there is a very very distinct difference between *this* and actual child pornography. As some comments above in this video, these girls in anime and manga that we dub as "children" aren't always given a distinct age, and their features, maturity and development parallel GREATLY past any actual child in real life. We know that no child in real life will have enormously large breasts and a curvy developed body--and that's the huge difference. Fiction and Reality. It's mostly the appeal of youthful cute innocence, and any mannerisms that we adhere to taking from "children" is most likely just a subject of a form of ignorance. We know ignorance isn't an age specific mannerism, and acting childish certainly isn't either. *we know this isn't reality* . It would be highly disturbing if the drawn character was proportionally an actual child, with the exact mannerisms of a 10 year old.
I love being educated when im watching your videos Joe, especially when its a topic I love. You put a metric fuck ton of work into this, fantastic as always 💖
I'm glad you liked the video. Thanks for the comment Miragephan!
I find it amazing that the government has no problem with graphic realism like the human centipede, battle royale (the original japanese version), the hostel films, or call of duty video games, yet is aggressively against cartoon art that depicts beauty love and fun. I am willing to bet money this actually has a Streisand Effect and more people end up discovering this content and loving it than if the government had just been silent about it.
The author talks a lot about the history of the term lolicon and the caterpillar example is interesting, however, modern pornographic manga, especially things you could find in the magazine Comic LO are very straight forward in their description of sexual relationship between children and adults and even if this is not real, there is no doubt that some of what is described in these stories is intended to be more on the Nabokov's Lolita side than on the 70's/80's Lolita side.
It depends of what you’re reading(or watching), I won’t put you any examples, because I know you won’t check em, but the lolicon is an archetype of character, you can have a lolicon in a story, and still not be a Lolita’s story; look I don’t like the lolicon pornography, but I know isn’t a reason to make it illegal, they’re not real people, then isn’t victim there; it’s like the violent video games, you’re not a murder because you play kill in video game
“lolicon pornography is appealing to me” no matter how you look at it, psychologically and emotionally you’re fucked to an extent
It's because the loli cartoons really don't look anything like real life kids. There is overlap between pedos and lolicon people, but I am not convinced it's a huge majority of the base, though I would venture to say that they are probably drawn to much younger/cuter/ smaller women in general . (A lot of men are; just lolis are exaggerated versions of that).
I think some lolis fall more into 'exaggerated female cuteness ' (and yes, sometimes that exaggeration can feel insulting to a female viewer, but other times it's very endearing) and then some fall into 'obviously a child' territory.
SeiryuNanago The point of the caterpillar is that it doesn't exist. Murdering people is also wrong, there's lots of Manga with murder too you know, none of those characters were affected because they don't exist.
It's pretty easy to play armchair psychiatrist my dude. You probably haven't even opened the DSM-V.
I wish people were not judging, well, anything based just on assumptions alone.
Excellent video man, personally i think people have this idea that whatever is normal or held sacred in their culture is the defining metric that the world should be run by and it results in a sort of moral deadlock, an "i'm right and your wrong" scenario. Hopefully things workout in the end and the culture is allowed to go in its own direction.
still the most engaging anime-related content I've seen on RUclips. keep up the good work Joe.
Caterpillarcons: "Am I a joke to you?"
Thank you for the video Pause & Pat, this is so refreshing to learn aspects of entertainment with historic background. This has added to a much in depth view of the shojo genre, it actually brought into light a better analysis of the mahou shojo genre in it’s development as well. I was researching the history of the mahou shojo genre for a class project & now I’m thinking of going full in to a deeper dive of analyzing the history!
That "shoujo manga but for boys" thing makes so much sense to me. I always thought I was an oddball for all my favorite manga and anime being obviously intended for girls and women; but I guess that was by design, huh? Boys are girls too. People were so mystified by adult My Little Pony fans but all this has happened before.
Limey Lassen Duh dude I'm girl and most of my fav animes and mangas are shonen but I like shojo ones too (sadly there are a few good ones).
Definitely. In a way we were already primed for it, considering early adopting pony fans had a lot of overlap with anime fans. The furry community shares a lot of qualities though, and they're a more homegrown example.
"Boys are girls too" - Quote from genetic dud that has pushed the percentage to 42%
Boys are girls too~~
Yeah I'm a girl and I am not into typical "girl" animes. They bore me.
Some people might be unfamiliar with the shoujo manga's new wave.
In the 70s, the similar age artists appeared and released new style, narrative, and techniques in shoujo manga magazines.
They didn't think of themselves as a group, but male readers were impressed by those artists and called them 24-nen gumi.
Their manga had some sci-fi or literary vibes.
The famous artists are Moto Hagio, Keiko Takemiya, Yumiko Oshima, Ryoko Yamagishi, etc.
Some of them were inspired by the 60s new movement in seinen-manga like Shinji Nagashima and Fumiko Okada.
That shoujo manga new wave re-reflected on seinen manga later. That was literally called "New-Wave" in the 80s.
That seinen "New-Wave" is re-trending these days and Go Ito called it "New-wave of New-wave".
Haruko Ichikawa, the author of Houseki no Kuni, is one of the most popular artists from that group.
BTW, the reason why Sailor Moon is titled as "Bishoujo" is that the series was inspired by a live-action TV show called Bishoujo Kamen Poitrine.
Ben Dover I sometimes forget Honey was also one of Toei Majokko.
Cuz I'm Pierrot Mahou Shoujo generation, I'm not so familiar with Toei's magical girls including Fushigi comedy.
Anyway, all of those works including Cutey Honey were made by male creators. I think Sailor Moon is important becuse Takeuchi is a woman.
Moreover, its genre is one of the popular one in those days, reincarnation, and that aspect is
vaguely connected to ClAMP's works.
It changed the genre into women's self-expression.
Ikuhara's feministic viewpoint is important to think of the anime version and the following anime.
But I suppose my reply is already too long.
Ben Dover That's I'm talking about. Tezka, Ishimori, Nagai, Yokoyama. All of them were shonen manga creators. Toei and Pierrot's perspective/taste comes from that. (Only Ishimori might be a bit different)
Mizuno Hideko broke the chain in shoujo manga, but majokko remained its original form.
That's why I could enjoy that genre in the 90s.
I feel Sailor Moon took it back to new shoujo manga, which already became female creators' world at that time. That time gap made Sailor Moon important. That's why Sailor Moon is different from Fushigi comedy.
That change helped conveying the genre to the older female audience, who mostly graduated majokko.
No, you're misunderstanding my argument.
Shoujo manga industry was once made by male artists, and magical girl/majokko genre comes from that lineage. Ishimori and Yokoyama were important creators in shoujo manga magazines too, but both were shonen manga creators. That history was affecting Toei and Pierrot magical girls' tone. It was made of older shoujo manga's imagination. It was the world of "shoujo manga made by male artists". (The core of shoujo magazines[not shoujo manga magazines] was made by male artists from the beginning but that's not the topic here.) Shoujo manga made by male artists itself was a good thing, but older female audience wanted something more. New shoujo manga after Mizuno went into that direction, but Majokko like Toei and Pierrot remained its original form. That's what I'm talking about. Sailor Moon shifted the genre to the updated shoujo manga imagination/taste. Sailor Moon took the plot from Fushigi Comedy, but it became completely different thing from that.
I never said Takeuchi was first or anything. I mentioned Mizuno, right?
Anyway,
Takeuchi as a female artist(cuz it's shoujo manga) and Takahashi as famale artist (but in shonen manga magazine). That difference you mentioned is important. Hiroki Azuma mentioned it in the context of moe originator, and he said CLAMP is also one of the important creators.
I think he forgot to mention Hikaru Yuzuki's Elite Kyousoukyoku. That's the originator of moe and so-called love-come. Interesting thing is that Elite Kyousoukyoku was serialized in a shoujo manga magazine, but Hikaru Yuzuki was a man.
Hiroki Azuma was probably thinking of Motoko Arai, cuz she is Azuma's favorite novelist. Motoko Arai, Rumiko Takahashi, and Otsuka's argument like this video convinced Azuma that moe was made by female creators/shoujo manga's imagination. But I think we have to remember that Hikaru Yuzuki released Elite Kyousoukyoku in a shoujo manga magazine.
I have trouble coming to terms with lolicon . I think it's because I am much more drawn to mature women and pretty male characters. But I do understand that young women have a certain 'cute ' quality to them that draws people to them, and loli is an exaggerated from of that....
Okay, but there is material that puts an emphasis on how young their character is, then puts them in....questionable situations. There is definitely a sexual aspect to it for a portion of the incidence.
I do think there is something to what you are saying when you compare this to fujoshi lovers. As someone who likes yaoi, I can say that it does serve as a dissociative sort of device...so that you can look through a female perspective, but with a male skin on, if that makes sense? I also know this genre has a lot , a lot of issues within it too that are less likely to be brought up, like a lot of rapey dynamics. I do think the genre allows women to mess around with power play too in a way that isn't strictly confined by heterosexual dynamics (though there often is a hetero dynamic going on in yaoi anyway)..
It's kind of messed up but I do feel attitudes towards gender that go beyond just 'this is attractive' do play a role in people being drawn to this stuff.
My biggest issue with loli is that sometimes it feels like naivety/ childishness is being equated with being female. And there is a lot of insecurity within me, just being a woman, because you know stereotypes about how a good girl is submissive and sweet and innocent, and has to be as young as possible, etc.
But I think looking at it all negatively is wrong. There is almost a certain nurturing side to lolicon too. There is a draw to becoming a part of the world of the lolicon, and almost protecting it too. I know I don't read a lot of loli material, but I feel that's part of it. It has a certain catharsis to it.
Loli/ fujoshi/ whatever genre also lets us explore the world of the opposite sex through our own lens. Maybe?
Wow, where has this video been for the past year I've been searching for this topic. With all the caustic rhetoric against lolicon by the masses as a cursory search on RUclips will show you, there's so much information being left out that people refuse to look up. But I don't blame them, I can't even find information about this subject myself that can be considered research. It's always the emotional appeal and a crusader mentality that is always pushed rather than just having an actual discussion.
As a creator of age gap stories, I appreciate this series. I don't write lolicon but it can overlap with age gap in some ways since the topics I go into are about an adult and a minor in a romantic setting. There was a time that I did call it lolicon but soon learned that was not the case. Lolicon was something else but I couldn't put my finger on what exactly was the difference. This video was a great eye opener on what that difference was and am thankful for discovering it.
i know brony , it took a whole day of clicking on recommended videos about the loli/con debate to find the 1 real research video that exists on this topic , amazing.....
This has been a very educational and very informative video. But i would of loved this more if it didn't just focus on the history, origins and what it was originally about, but rather a comparison of how ''lolicon'' has evolved (or devolved in this case..)
Great work.
His point on equating a new, specific phenomenon with something that we already know is a very important one. That one expresses desire for a thing in fantasy isn't tantamount to having a fetish for that same thing in reality. This is the case even if we're considering this desire to have a purely biological base. Even if we consider all "lolicons" to be "pedophiles" then the questions arises of why they would need to consume such material rather than play out their fantasies in real life -- if the answer is that they do it because of the punishment working as a deterrance, then it's already the case that these people are capable of exerting control over themselves, i.e. aren't sexual deviants. This also applies to other sexuality oriented depictions: that a woman expresses desire for men having sex with men, doesn't men she likes or supports real life gay people, or that what she consumes is supposed to be like an actual gay relationship.
Also, I was wondering, will you guys ever do anything relating to the straight-up drawn porn scene of Japan? That part about the government reminded me of the recent increase in censorship due to the Olympics.
Very great video ! I realy like your editing and music. I find it amazing that I'm not bored by a 20mn interview of a guy explaining litterature/history I don't know anything about (even though I watch anime). And I understood everything ! The concepts are realy well explained despite beeing complex, even for a non- native english speaker like me.
Thank you !
For more context on the topics discussed here, this paper is referencing Galbraith's 2011 Image and Narrative article titled, "Lolicon: The Reality of 'Virtual Child Pornography' in Japan
www.imageandnarrative.be/index.php/imagenarrative/article/view/127
Pause and Select hey have you seen the new Junji Ito anime collection on crunchyroll??
they just realeased a new episode!
There are a lot of things that can be said about this topic to be honest. My only complaint with this video might be the lack of looking at the modern interpretation of lolicon. Though I'm not sure I'd like the arguments or stance, I'd still rather hear it than not. Personally I see lolicon as a relatively harmless thing to exist, as the issue with pedophile materials is always the harm of children. Lolicon doesn't directly harm children, and I've never seen reasonable evidence to suggest that it even indirectly harms children.
In my opinion, if it stopped one person from doing it irl because they felt loliz were doing it for them, it's probably worth at least being accessible
@@breathofdifferentair1950 I think I've read a social science paper that suggested that such a thing might be possible in the past. I tried to find it again, but couldn't unfortunately, it has been a long time since I really looked into this topic that I might've made it up in my head or just simply can't find it. However, I think what you say is pretty reasonable and likely in my opinion. There is a correlation in the rise of easily accessible pornographic material and lowering of sexual assaults. While it has been disputed, and the disputes have been disputed, logically it really makes sense why this would be the case. The same correlation probably can be drawn with lolicon and people with pedophilic inclinations.
Whether this is a good rhetorical argument I'm not sure. This is such an emotionally charged issue that I'm not sure you can convince people out of their position no matter what you bring to the table. I changed my mind on this issue when I was a teenager and probably less susceptible to being resolute in my beliefs. Though this is an amazing example of Haidt's elephant and the rider metaphor in my opinion. A person's rider, or the logical side, can't really control the elephant, the emotional side.
@@SolaticSyot there is so much emotion. Understandably so for survivors. Otherwise, hear me out. Some people like taboos.
This doesn't make taboos normal but at least dont judge. It's like disclaimer this animated footage didn't actually hurt anyone
@@breathofdifferentair1950 It's actually unlikely that it's survivors who are saying such things. I mean it certainly could be, but it's worth noting that those who are sexually assaulted at a young age have a much higher likelihood of developing pedophilic desires. With that in mind it's no surprise that these people may find themselves using lolicon or shotacon material as a coping mechanism or even simply as what appeals to them.
When I say emotional, I'm sort of referring to it more in the sense of it being irrational. People being incapable of controlling their emotional responses is definitionally irrational. However, that also carries heavy negative connotations for most people, so while accurate I think it was more productive to just say emotional.
Also, while I agree that very simply the most important part of this is that it is indeed fictional and therefore unharmful to real children, you do need better arguments. I've had this discussion a lot, for over a decade now if I'm not mistaken. While most people can't reason past "it's bad", or maybe precisely because of that, you have to do a lot more work to bridge that gap.
I am relieved to hear someone explaining "Loli" and "Lolicon" in its cultural context.
Rather than the automatic assumption that they both just mean Paedophilia.
I’m sorry but I don’t know any Japanese people that want to be known as lolicons or shouta cons... or that would be open about it. It still holds a pretty negative connotation in japan.
Wait it is?
That was in the past, right?
ruclips.net/video/eL0Tim6ZRTI/видео.html
people open about shoutacon
"what i don't know, does not exist"
yeah, the general non otaku people use it to refer to pedophiles in general
Note: Long comment incoming... Joji Matthews weeks ago told me about your video, so here I am. And you showed a clip of Nanatsuiro Drops at 5:44, a magical girl show, which is why he brought up your video. On his video about moe archetypes I brought up how in the 80's the two magical girl shows "Minky Momo" and "Creamy Mami" that, from what I've heard, sparked up the interest of lolicon fans then. This had angered the Production Reed creator, Sato Toshihiko (Minky Momo), but ultimately brought in 10% more viewership alone. The 80's also had a lolicon boom and one of the people behind this is by the name of Hideo Azuma, who oddly enough went on to make his own magical girl series under the name "Nanako SOS." Now, I know you've brought this up in your video, but with clips also of series such as Minky Momo and Majokko Megu-chan the cuteness factor and appeal of youth played into this growing interest from the magical girl genre in the 70's from authors such as Go Nagai, something most anime fans don't know about.
Hell, even Gundam jumped on the lolicon train. Elpeo Puru was made specifically for adult, male lolicon fans for ZZ Gundam in 1986. This is after Zeta Gundam, a series filled with girls you could consider to be "bishoujo" to a certain extent. This is why the phrase of "moe" and such being made for female fans is somewhat a bit off for me, considering most fans were male despite women being into it as well. But again, my thoughts on this are up for debate. And from stories you even had fujoshi Gundam fans for a long time, but I'd need a source for this to confirm it completely.
Anyway, I just find it to be very interesting how the term "lolicon" is used for more tame bishoujo works and also for seinen series such as Kodomo no Jikan, a series that actually is sexual in nature for multiple reasons. There is no surprise to me that male fans are. into genres such as romance or the magical girls since genre mixing has created periphery demographics. You can even see it today into fandoms of shows such as Pretty Cure, a show focused on friendship and saving the day, but also with adorable girl characters known for hyped sentai style fights and close enough friendship to be considered yuri by some people. Anyway, until we can get our hands on untranslated works or have willing participants here translate them from overseas, the gap between understanding lolicon in Japan's eyes will still be a bit difficult.
I get this argument and I’m starting to understand the history and nuance that come with this subject. I can see that lolicon is more than just what we label it as, but I can’t shake my slight discomfort with it. I completely agree that when talking about lolicon we leave out people like Uchiyama Aki or Azuma Hideo despite their importance. However, I believe that when most people criticize lolicon they’re talking more about works like those of Inuboshi or Kunisaki Kei who explicitly show sexual conduct between characters who are meant to look, act, and be underage.
I can see that there’s disconnect between how we define lolicon, but I feel that that just ignoring that problematic side might be just as harmful as labeling the whole sub-genre/movement as bad.
What harm is Inuboshi or Kunisaki Kei actually causing?
i dont understand the point some people in the comments are trying to make. the caterpillar example was very important. it was providing an example of the huge divide between a drawing and a photo. its saying that if we dont treat the young looking caterpillar the same way as actual child pornography then why should we treat something more explicit any differently when its all just ink on a page. regardless of the material the divide between reality and fiction is still there and still crucial.
he also made several points specifically stating the difference between attraction to 2D characters and attraction the real people. a creator or consumer of loli manga/anime shouldnt be considered pedophiles or considered to have pedophilic tendencies because they simply dont.
also he doesnt avoid the topic at hand, he just puts it in a way that people wont shy away from it and in a way thats actually conducive to a logical, adult conversation where both sides can try to reach an understanding without either feeling uncomfortable with the result or having misconceptions because of loaded words that have negative connotations that dont actually apply to the mater at hand.
lastly this doesnt apply to the video but rather to some comments ive seen. several people have stated that the depiction of lolis in sexual situations is ok as long as they are canonically of age and responses to this saying that its still wrong because they look physically underage implying that its wrong to be attracted to the petite female body type. so what about my case and those like me? my girlfriend is very petite, she is a little over 4 feet tall, very thin at around 80-85 pounds, and completely flat chested. shes a year older than me at 21 and is very mature and intelligent but can be childish and playful at times. we've been dating for over a year now. my little sister who is 13 is about a foot taller than her and more physically developed. my questions are; is physical appearance really that accurate in telling someones age? and am i wrong for being with my girlfriend and finding her attractive? and if so, should my girlfriend never be allowed to be in a relationship or find love just because others deem her body, which she has no control over, physically underage?
@Missing Lamb Sauce yeah shes a child what's your point she isn't sexualized
@@lampad4549 That's not true, but it's tame by anime standards.
@Missing Lamb Sauce did you not read the comment? He literally explains why that does not matter.
This small series was an absolute pleasure to watch, thank you. I feel it's this way of thinking highlighted here, that we can apply to a lot of things we label in a negative way. A love for Video games or Comics is not so much different from a fascination of sports, we just make it out to be. Two things with simmilar names, looks, patterns and so on do not have to be simmilar in the slightest. If roles were reversed we might view and label football fans as a minority with dangerous potential to violence, since that's what they seem to enjoy watching. But behind all labels, do we really know why someone enjoys something? No of course not. Labeling and grouping things based on common charakteristics is a method our brain uses to be more funktional, but that doesn't mean it's ethical or even logical.
Seeing people researching the creation of these labels and their effect on us is a good reminder to us that, how simple it may sound, every human is a different, separate individual, with different perception of reality, different feelings and thoughts. I said it sounds simple and like common knowledge, but why then are our thoughts still so often based on the perception of knowing and understanding someone, even though we actually don't?
It's a crime you don't have more subscribers, love this, interesting discussion and cool visuals
I have mixed feeling on loilcons. I get the affection for a “cute” character but when it comes to sexual attraction to “cute” underaged character, then it gets really uncomfortable. I get that you want to show the positive sud of loilcon but you presented the topic of loilcon in only in a positive light. It had a much darker side that need to talked about too. You can’t act like lolicons is completely separated from the sexually aspic. A lot of anime have underaged character that are cute and sexy. When your in the character age range it doesn’t bother you but when you are older it starts to get uncomfortable.
Like with Sailor Moon. She is only 14 when you meet she but is drawn like 17-20 year old. I grew up with her and my feel on her have changed. When I was 5 I looked upped to her and thought she was so grown up. Now as a adult I see she as the child she is and get uncomfortable when when is in a relationship with her much older boyfriend. Revolutionary Girl Utena shows the negative affect of romanizing a teenager in a relationship with an adult.
With teenage character it’s complicated because teens are just starting to understand their sexuality. They want to experinent and express it. Kids under 13 are different story. Sexualizing a child character who doesn’t understand sex and sexuality feels wrong.
I think one thing is overlooked is the "rule 34" factor. When I'm browsing, say "pantyhose" on a anime/hentai specific gallery, a good pic is a good pic. I agree there is a sliding scale of ugh fuck that's too young looking, but in your example of the Sailor Scouts: at the end of the day for a lot of hentai fans it's a good drawing on the endless feed of other images they are flicking through.
It's not so much about "affection" for a younger character, it's more that a Haruhi or Sailor Scout etc aren't removed from the equation of a "hot pantyhose drawings" folder.
I too agree it's a little creepy to be attracted to an actual character in a story. Like taking a character from a show that's younger and thinking "I'd love to date her, I'd love to fuck her" like the actual character that's portrayed in the story. You're right that an Adult should find similar Adult minds in stories to become "waifu" etc.
I feel from what I've seen the appeal isn't that they don't understand the sex, necessarily (because adult virgin porn/attraction is a thing), but that it's not even about an attraction to that real world aspect of "They don't understand sex". It's a porn drawing. These characters exist in their narrative. Most hentai art viewers aren't thinking they are jumping into the character's lives/story. I love Avatar the Last Airbender in example, it's IMHO the best Story I've seen on Nickelodeon; but I don't take issue to Katara porn because it isn't "Katara on her journey with Team Avatar now getting rammed by me." it's "Oh yeah that character I know is in a hentai drawing, daymn it's pretty well drawn~
As for the artists that draw this kind of art. Once again I too would say there is a sliding scale of "hey slow down bro" but most artists I've seen (On DeviantArt for example) draw Sailor Scouts because it's another fandom to draw. That's what they do. Rule 34 lolz. Modern digital artists need to constantly create art. So they pick a fandom and go for it (heard it brings in the views).
Kristin Glenn "darker side" are you fucking kidding me they are just guys ( and girls )jerking off to computer monitor
I think its important to consider that many have very different experiences from that. Per say with sexuality some dont even have that connection to sailor moon being the age she is. I for years read shotacon and didnt even realize what it was. To me it just looked like any other yaoi, but if I were to admit that to others I likely would be shunned and called a pedophile. Infact the way I found out about the content I was reading was through someone I was dating thinking I was attracted to children and in turn telling everyone I knew without remorse. They did not come and ask me if I was reading it for those reasons and only assumed. I would like the narrative to change on this because if it happened to me there must be others out there who view the content the same way, who also may one day be inches away from taking their life because of something they aren't actually into. Completely separate from age. Like a 'chibi' so abstract you can't place them, usually thats how I see loli and shota, and I just wish that society would be open to realizing and accepting that.
Ffs bro, They are fictional characters. They can’t understand anything because they are not *real.* *Fictional characters can not consent out of principle since they are not real. Them being an adult or a child does not change this fact.* There is no, “A child character can’t understand”. This statement is not real in any shape or form.
There is nothing wrong with lewding lolis. There is literally no harm being done. There will not he harm produced from it.
I don't understand why people can't tell the difference between a real human being... and a *cartoon*
This is a wonderful series on the development of "moe" and "wafuism". And it is also a good history lesson on shoujo manga and how it influences other genres. Pause, you did a wonderful job in the production of this video series. I enjoyed that aspect of this series.
But after watching this series in its entirety, I feel as though Galbraith has been avoiding some topics. And there are outright inaccuracies.
For example: 24:08.
I can find 128 doujins of "Kodomo no Jikan" (KnJ) hosted on nhentai in a 5 second search. A large amount of those are bound to be in English. E-Hentai has forums with which we can talk to Lolicons fans in the western world. So we aren't completely cut off from this, we can at least see this from our end. And try to understand it within our own community, we can attempt to understand the consumer side of this phenomenon.
Though I do agree with him in the fact that there needs to be discussion about the topic before things go to the courts. Given that what we see as non-lolicons fans may be consumed differently by lolicon fans. Like Galbrath said, interpretation changes things.
And lastly, there are varying degrees severity when it comes to the works discussed. Lolicon (as a genre) is defined a bit too broadly in this series. There isn't distinctions made. We can't lump together invader Lum and the girls from KnJ.
A vanilla doujin about high schoolers with realistic proportions wouldn't be as harshly judged, and would more likely be accepted, compared to a hardcore doujin involving elementary school characters drawn to look like elementary school characters. Yet both would technically be illegal if we consider the "persons" in them being "under 18". Its a bit too black and white.
tl;dr
Good video, but I'm a little unsatisfied.
(Thanks for reading my dumb blogpost to a 3 month old video)
I love Lolita fashions i love the Victorian style
Shalltear Bloodfallen and Beatrice are some good characters who wear that sort of style too.
@@kenpanderz672 Sheesh Shalltear on god, I only read volume 1 of the LN (T_T)
I think you are overly generalizing the evolution of anime/manga in this lolita context. Figures like Miyazaki did create a lot of young girls as their lead role but the idea that these figures are in the same boat as others who overtly sexualize their young characters is simply a lie. Miyazaki hated the direction anime and manga fans were taking these young characters; the sexualization of underage characters. So his work and words can be seen as a counter to this trend as he saw it as damaging to sexualize and titilate in this manner.
He adresses that in the video (or maybe in the full audio version, can't remember) LoL.
Pause and Select you knocked this one out of the park
Thank you for the kind words Zaid!
Insightful interview. Thanks for this great video Joe! Good to see you again after this somewhat long pause.
I'm glad you selected to watch the video! ~ Skrullz Q.Q
Is the long version different or essentially has the same points as the edited video?
Longer version of the same points, and a little more.
What an incredible breakdown. Thank you for creating this P&S!
I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Thank you for the nice comment!
Wow this series has been really really informative! Great stuff :D
Thank you for the kind comment Mcdudes! It's always a joy reading your positive comments!
The content of the video unsettles me, forgive me if I'm wrong or this was explained, but regardless of the etymology of the word, it doesn't change the content and the specific nature of which the word has come to be associated with. You can't look at the word, apply a prescriptive sense of its definition and explain everything on that basis alone.
Mangaka, authors and directors are specifically targeting a certain audience which takes pleasure from the sexual exploitation of children (which is the agreed upon definition, and yes I understand he's trying to redefine it but I'm saying it's wrong to). Whether it is pleasure derived sexually or from a sense of cuteness in the characters should not matter in terms of the context of what is on the page.
Also the caterpillar analogy seemed out of place and incoherent.
edit (2023.08.16): since originally posting this comment i have read galbraith's books 'the moe manifesto' and 'otaku: the struggle for imagination in japan' and now have a greater understanding of lolicon as a term and cultural phenomenon that arose semi-parodically, independently of any predatory desire for children. i still consider the fetishisation of underage/neotenous girl characters in fiction to be a problem and deeply suspect, but have greater reception to regarding the kind of affection for e.g. bishojo characters separately to predatory desire.
there are people who love cut petite woman who arent under aged and they are still labeled pedophiles i want to know are those people still sick for liking that petite body type . im asking for answers not trying to start a fight
im not fighting urges i just like cute petite flat chested woman . i think when loli con does depict predatory actions were a adult male/female is attacking a under aged girl then its wrong . if the loli is lets say rory mercury or shinobu then its fine .
TELEKINETICxBOLT:
Personally I don't really see a problem if they are not underaged. The only stipulation I might have with that is if they are specifically designed to look like a child and their character is, by that virtue, entirely childish.
SlowerHanslimaa:
No, if that's how I came across that was not my intention. Essentially I am criticising Patrick for his generalisation that the content that is on the page is inherently wrong and that we should not display such images such as those which depict children in sexual acts.
yeah i find that weird too when its deliberately trying to make them look like kids then i have an issue. mayaoi hachikugi from bake montagatori is is 100 years old but still has a mind of child. i still find issue with that . now a chartater from the same show is a vampire. she is petite but shes thousands of years old and has the mind of an adult.
PlifalTV: Sorry i'm usually not very active in the comment-section and first need to learn that i should make responses with specific names in them. The response was originally thought for TELEKINECTICxBOLT.
TELECINETICxBOLT: I'm not accousing you to fight your urges. I just wanted to say that no one needs to justify why they like something. If you like it, it is ok and no one has the right to blame you for that.
How has twitter not crucified you for this yet lmao
this video is 1 research based informative and 2 made several years before the recent boom of sjws invading anime.....
Remember everyone, Yes Lolita, No Touch!
The term lolicon in anime is often used also as a comedy plot tool like when an older male character says he adores a young girl character or when situations put him and her in an awkward position other's say they are calling the police or that he must be a lolicon. Also a lot of loli characters are not young but are adult women but because of their youthful appearance it leads to misunderstandings and troubles they have looking so young. Like their husband being taken to the police station by the cops, so the subject of loli is often used to add to the plot and make more interesting character dynamics.
Great video and awesome series, as with all your vids man. I'm fascinated by this kind of research and academic approach to media like manga/anime, helping give it the discussion it deserves.
It's a long shot, but I'm actually moving back to Japan after a brief hiatus, and I'd be interested in pursuing some of this research on my own as a hobby as well if time permits..it would be great to help uncover some historical archives and contribute to the discussion by translating them, though I wouldn't even know where to start since I'm just a fan and consumer rather than a researcher. But ever since I found this channel, it's really been on the back of my mind that I'd love to start a side project involving this kind of research and to put a skill set to good use that I developed over a number of years studying/working/living in Japan.
In any case, love your content - I look forward to more in the future.
14:00 that editing justifying all the blood and toil invested into it
hell yea
*Cartoon characters don't have birth citificates.*
Also..
Iv'e never seen a human with giant eyes disproportinate to their heads..
Iv'e never seen a human being with cell shaded skin and two accommodating colors to represent shadow.
6:20 Iv'e never seen a human being with yellow skin, giant bulging eyes, tube shaped arms and legs, hair that looks as though it's an anatomical part of their head, a perfectly cylinder shaped nose.
............................
aaaaaaanddd. No reply, guess its too much for normies to handle.
Actually I think that the lack of similarities between humans in anime and real humans is a somewhat important point that is often overlooked. I can't remember what it was, but I do remember reading an art book that looked into manga style art, and it touched on children characters. Children characters in anime as is the most typical style to draw them in, are actually shaped like smaller versions of normal anime characters. I would almost say that writing off the attraction to these characters entirely as pedophilia is almost the equivalent of saying anyone who is attracted to shorter people is also a pedophile.
Thank you you make me appreciate the anime we have nowadays even more now than ever also this video help me to become a better artist.
oh?
I may not have agreed with the points mentioned in this video, but I really appreciate and like the effort, writing, and video editing put into it.
Thank you for the kind words Robin!
I was promised a hxh vid in 2017
I am very unhappy
(Good vid tho)
Hunter x Hunter video will eventually happen. Bide your time and hold out hope! ~ Skrullz
Pause and Select Of course I have faith in the will of ToGODshi~
avor yeda 2011 specifically but I'd be done for all 3!
@@PauseandSelect Hunter x Hunter video confirmed to come out at the same as next chapter jk
@@PauseandSelect HxH video on hiatus LUL
Honestly, people getting jailed for drawing, for producing various lines and scribbles that give the illusion of life, and put on the same cells as rapists, abusers and murderers just makes me angry
Masterpiece.
Fuckin hell Joe why you gotta raise the bar with every video you put out?
i give this video a Stacey Dooley OK hand-sign/10
Amazing vid ! One of a kind channel.
Fascinating video. Love the content. Still seeking to fully understand this topic myself.
Sailor Moon: Defying gender stereotypes BEFORE it was cool!
But... one question. Doesn't it seem that you're mixing two different things in this video -- lolicon and moe? All this "attraction to cute young (girl) characters" -- isn't it the basis of moe? Or are you arguing that moe and lolicon are 'the same'?
Asehpe
Actually, they are often discussed in the same context.
In a TV show called Heisei Gokuraku Otaku Dangi, Toshio Okada, Shunichi Karasawa, and Dannosuke Tatekawa discussed lolicon.
Dannosuke ,he is a lolicon himself, explained that the tag for lolicon contents changed from lolicon to "lo" and "moe".
Their main issue was the real girls on TV shows like Hitori de Dekirumon, but they talked about both lolicon and moe.
Only one difference Dannosuke mentioned was that moe girls usually have matured bodies.
The underground pedophile culture, anime/manga fans, and sci-fi fandom somehow belonged to the same community and shared the same context in the 80s.
That makes this problem
more difficult. The're different, but we can't draw a clear borderline between them
Hm. Where do you see the difference between moe and lolicon (the latter as defined in this video)?
Asehpe If I follow its narrow sense, lolicon is people who are attached to real girls, not the anime-y girls. so it's the same thing as pedophile.
Dannosuke said he doesn't say pedophile because it sounds like child molester.
The connection between moe and loli is supported only by 80's lolicon boom and "loli" as a buzzword.
We otaku defined the word of marginal field, and it made our perspective.
That's why I said it's difficult.
If we differentiate loli from moe, we have to ignore the fixed definition and perspective.
The definition might be okay, but ignoring moe-oriented lolicon's self-image is another thing.
+ehoba, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... Lolicon = interested in real girls seems to be the opposite of what the video says, where the connection with otaku culture (and with moe in all but the word -- it didn't occur even once in the video, I think) is paramount. I heard him say that lolicon means 'something else' in the context of Japanese culture, and more specifically, in otaku culture, associated more with admiration for certain characters than for their real-life counterparts. Or did I get something wrong?
hmm, I suppose I can't explain this issue well.
Here I translated the talk between Okada, Dannosuke, and Karasawa.
You realize that their cultural situation in the 80s is quite different from what we see today.
My understanding is that we labeled two different things in the 80s, and that still confuses our perspective even today.
(They talked about the fad of little girl photo books before lolicon-manga. It was called Alice-boom.
It had nothing to do with anime or manga. It was more like high-art movement.)
Okada: When I was in high school, I was kinda lolicon.
Karasawa:wait, you're not lolicon now?
Okada:No, I'm not. Lolicon used to be a good thing, an intellectual movement, in the sci-fi fandom, right?
Karasawa:Indeed.
Dannosuke:It was a golden age. You had to label anything as lolicon to sell items.
Okada:Subculture celebrities praised them just because they're labeled as lolicon.
Karasawa:I think lolicon culture really started from the sci-fi fandom in those days. It was a lolicon boom.
So many highly-educated people came to sci-fi communities in the 80s because they had a certain elitism.
They looked down the literature and pulp fictions. They chose sci-fi due to their elitism.
I suppose that's also the reason why they chose lolita.
Okada:Yeah. Most of them were actually not attracted by lolicon stuff. They pretended to be lolicon.
Karasawa:And that's why Hideo Azuma is so important. He saved those lolicon wannabes.
He released so-called "black book", Cybele, in the early Comic Market. That was when lolicon-manga began. It got enormous popularity.
Dannosuke:Cybele was a book only about the situations without any storylines, though.
Karasawa:After that, many creators including Azuma himself put sci-fi and fantasy vibes into the lolicon-manga.
People started to talk about their attachment to anime girls like Clarisse in those days.
Dannosuke:Azuma's taste was so-called Tsuru-Peta/flat-chested. He was different from the anime fans who like both mature and immature bodies.
It's different from Lum-chan.
----
Dannosuke:I'm writing in PC-game magazines. You know, moe-game magazines, like Moe-oh.
Karasawa:The word "moe" is wiping loli out, but that's because they want to get rid of "complex" aspect from their culture.
In the early days of lolicon, they thought themselves as ugly entities, and they wanted little girls to look themselves down.
Today's loli fans want to get rid of that self-torture taste. That led to "loli" and moe.
Dannosuke:We called it lo/炉 before that. Internet providers banned Loli-related words, so we had to make it up.
But I think Loli/lo and moe are quite different.
Moe fans say they feel moe in Morning Musume, but real lolicon don't like it. That's just show biz items. Lolicon shouldn't like that.
Okada: Lolicon don't like that kind of bait, but you love real little girls in TV shows, right?
Dannosuke:Yes. Little girls in educational programs are good.
----
Karasawa:Most of lolicon manga actually don't show little girls' sex. If they do, they're labeled as Kichiku/brute.
Okada:That kind of lolicon manga tend to make girls feel orgasm. Most of them actually don't like to abuse girls.
Dannosuke:I think that is not lolicon. We lolicon know how sex with little girls would be. Real lolicons think it is unrealistic.
----
Karasawa:The word "loli" is still marketable, I mean, they're trying to sell loli-face girls or super-lolita stuff.
But only their face is loli-like. They have mature bodies.
Dannosuke:Yes. Loli became just about the facial style today. It just means a certain taste of pop culture.
Karasawa:They don't like little girls even if they say they like loli girls. They just like cute and convenient girls.
----
Dannosuke: So-called lolicon is just 2D complex today. They like cute faces, but it just means that they love anime/manga girls.
Hate how you have low subscribers.. Millions of anime watchers need to watch videos like these.
So in other words same as I expected western people misunderstand lolicon as something bad which isn't true.
I wanted to thank you, dude. Lolicon is a very complex situation, if it is dangerous or not, if it need to be illegal or not, and a lot of things, and i appreciate to open this topic on this page.
I wish to write something more elaborated, but my english and time is limited xd.
Saludos desde Chile
Can you add options for adding subtitles? I would love to write subtitles in my language and I'm sure that not only me would like to do it
Done and done! I hope Joe doesn't get angry at me for doing this, lol. ~Roger
it wasn't as bad as i thought it was going to be. i agree with e-kon that one of his worst points is when he goes on about the meaning of the word lolli-con, however the video does serve as a good history lesson with great visuals by joe. His point about the difference between real life image and a drawing is obvious true, however i think he kind over interrupts the conclusion to the caterpillar anecdote. something not having a 1 to 1 correlation doesn't mean there isn't a correlation at all. what if 70 percent of fan of lolicon manga also like child porn? i doubt the correlation is that high, but if that was the case it would certainly be a factor in the censorship discussion.
Even if you are someone like me, who would never be in favor of censoring drawings. This doesn't mean i am against making aesthetic morality judgements on the work of art.
also if i were to summarize his argument a bit. Basically its lollicon has a long history in anime/manga and its become so entrenched in anime/manga culture that now when someone would watch madoka maybe for them one of the main appeals isn't wow these characters are cute. they like the show for other reasons... i wouldn't go so far to say if madoka was dudes it would of been that big of a hit.
but anyway i think one possible solution to that problem that he doesn't really address much in this video is well maybe all the fans or most of them are perverts. It seems to me he kind of says well dude kiki delivery service is similar enough to k-on, saying fans of k-on are perverts you are basically saying some of the most popular/revered/flagship anime properties are for perverts.
So....
Point being his defense at least theoretically doesn't really prove anything.
Another point is there aren't too many true overt lolita shows that are like "popular". Like there is a difference between k-on and the show about the 3rd grade girl who wants to have sex with her teacher. Or even the regular 14-16 year old anime girl and like the moe-blobs of the key visuals.
THose would all be important distinctions to keep in mind in the "real discussion" of the topic, if people were ever going to have it.
Do you know how to read?
I don't see how banning non-child abuse is going to stop child abuse. Even if 100% of Lolicon fans also consume actual child porn that wouldn't mean removing Lolicon would stop them getting child porn which is already illegal anyway.
The thinking is "if we remove this media this crime will stop happening" making the false conclusion that the media causes the crime. It's no different then violent games cause violent crimes, or heavy metal causes antisocial behaviour ect.
azamonra Yeah even if the 70% correlation were true i don't see how that is an argument to ban lolicon drawings.
While there aren't that many loli fanservice shows, most fanservice shows have loli characters and do sexualize them.
Fantastic video, a shame that things have gotten worse the more new "normative fans" invade this hobby
lolicon is more popular than ever right now but there are two issues
it's also more censored and looked down upon than ever by all the non lolicons AND there are A LOT of actual p3d0ph1le5 in the community fetishizing the "child" aspect of the characters a lot more than their cute appearance
@@Anri17_ it has definitely changed, you can't make kodomo no jikan today, even onimai had to erase any and all pantyshots
@@Anri17_ bro read, I said they were erased, the show has all types of fanservice but panty shots and the camera is asking for pantyshots many times but instead a black void appears, it makes no sense and it's all because of dumb new legislations
@@Anri17_ it's easy to tell a show like that originally had pantyshots in the minds of the creators but since pantyshots have become taboo due to Japan's upskirt photo taking epidemic boomer politicians of course blamed entertainment so games and anime with pantyshots have to get a way higher age rating so producers opted for just removing them from most things
@@Anri17_ it's been getting worse for years
Ooh, this is very interesting! I learned a lot today!
Glad to hear that 979JuJu!
As long as they don't ban this kind of work, people can be as disgusted as they want.
Ah, I've only heard Lolicon to be sexualisation of child charatcers, I didn't know it didn't use to be/isn't in Japan, here that's pretty much what everyone thinks it is...
Jesus Christ this editing is godlike
Thanks!
good work, wish your stuff got more views.
They will come. Eventually. ~ Skrullz
Drawings don’t have human rights, drawings don’t have feelings, drawings don’t have consciousness. Draw whatever you want it shouldn’t be viewed like the Bart and Lisa case.
How is the Bart Lisa case any different? If it's a drawing of two Pokemon girls, how is that different from the Simpsons. I feel just saying "it's not a real child, no harm" wont save a Lolicon from of a jury after they see his all-cartoon porn stash.
Lorpo I draw 9/11, did i effected anyone??
カロ Rip everyone on America then.
"Conveys feelings" Your answer is so childish its mind blowing. Conveys feelings really?
"Causes emotions" Wow! Shocking!
I could go on but really?
@@LorpoArt It should be handled responsibly by the audience.*
Fixed that for you.
I don’t mind people drawing cute characters and absolutely I love the shoujo pretty sparkle style.
But it’s when characters are engaging in obvious sexual behavior or When anime and manga shows young girls or boys underwear shots or just obvious things that are just inappropriate.
I just can’t get with that.
But this video was very interesting going over the history and style in this medium.
Yeah i can't get with that either.
Doesn't matter it isn't real
@@addajjalsonofallah6217 pretty much. only a schizo would try and act as if it is real.
Nobody's forcing you to consume it. Some people don't read any story with violence or blood and that's fine, they have their own taste and sensibilities.
I would love to have a indeep talk about the adult part of the topics. Theres a lack of talk on the bidimenssional porn in general, would be cool to have some one who really undertand what is talking about talking about it
That would certainly be interesting. ~ Skrullz
Great discussion...now just need to share it and not be shamed by its title.
Ok that seems reasonabl-
10:32 OH GOD WHAT IS THAT!? KILL IT! KILL IT BEFORE IT LAYS EGGS!
I see.
That was interesting. Need to re-watch It later.
you should mention that this is a three-part series during: the beginning of the video, title, and comment section. A large majority of people haven't seen parts one or two, and the topics covered within those videos, and im sure you can see as i have, that there is a poor understanding of the author's actual findings, observations, and research because of the fact. you could also make a single video as the whole documentary, and bring up missing points covered in the other two videos.
very good documentary otherwise.
sooo you really gonna sit here an act like a grown man or woman drawing or partaking in the drawings of sexualized children isn't weird ?!?!
Hiyajo Maho you have responded this on some comments, like the same exact phrase. Why? Lol. Doesn't it make it weirder than some lolis that are supposedly underage have developed bodies already? I mean, what's a biggest hint about something getting sexualized that putting on it a big pair of boobs?
Is that your standard for censoring politically incorrect art which is a form of expression? If you are not for censorship then your take on this, is pretty much useless and a mere shallow thought. Yeah, weird things exist. Congrats
People can think its weird all they wan't. Its when they start making it illegal or calling for it to be when there is as problem as their are no children involved in its production and their are no studies that suggest it leads to child abuse in any way. In fact its the opposite as there have been studies shown that when pedophiles are given another option like this it reduces child abuse. When pedophiles are deprived of alternatives that don't effect children it leads to actual child abuse.
Let's kill all weird people, shall we? Let's censor anything than anyone could percieve as weird, while we're at it.
It is weird. Similarly to how others partake in Furry or vore. Kinks are meant to not be spoken about publicly.
A great video. I have gone over a myriad of research into taboo fantasy, and the consensus among professionals is generally the same: fantasy, art, and writing hurt no one. When a real person is being hurt, then there is a problem. Policing thoughts or art or fantasy, even those sexual in nature, is counterproductive to wider problems (such as hypersexualization of child actresses and idol culture, groups of the far-right vying for child marriage, etc.). These problems are far more pressing than the perceived "rights" of drawings. These problems existed before, will exist after, and exist despite certain countries making xyz content illegal (the UK and anything BDSM-related, for example).
Video games do not share a direct link to causing violence in those who play them. Why does this suddenly become false when the word "video game" is changed to "sex?" Evidence suggest wider availability of these types of content may actually decrease rates of offenses.
"Self-perceived effects of pornography consumption" by Gert Martin Hald, PhD, and Neil M. Malamuth
"The pleasure is momentary…the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault" by Christopher J. Ferguson, PhD, and Richard D. Hartley
"Pornography and Sex Crimes in the Czech Republic" by Milton Diamond, Ph.D, Eva Jozifkova, and Petr Weiss
"Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan" by Milton Diamond, Ph.D. and Ayako Uchiyama, published by the Pacific Center for Sex and Society
I recommend such works by Justin Lehmiller (PhD), David J. Ley (PhD), and the following public Google Drive folders:
"Education for the Purity Police," an extremely detailed Google folder, as put together by OneAmahira
"Fiction's Affect on Morality"
"Fiction as a Coping Mechanism"
And my own article, which is just a collection of studies, psychological and cultural, surrounding porn, sex, fantasy, and taboo fiction.
"On Sexual Fantasy and "Antis" (An Updated List of Resources)"
Not sure if you are interested in this, but "Pornography and Sexual Aggression: Can Meta-Analysis Find a Link?" suggests that the correlation between the two is weak, and in some cases, there is no correlation at all.
My current focus on understanding this issue is from the perspective of 2D complex and fictosexuality, which is an interesting perspective and may be helpful for your research.
Edit: I am not an expert and still working on the basics. Please don't treat me as an expert.
@nogoldhere when I try searching for "education for the purity police" "fiction's affect on morality" "on sexual fantasies and antis" "fiction as a coping mechanism" nothing shows up i would like to read them but sadly RUclips does not allow links
@@Phoenixreborn69 they are listed on my blog (the site is just NoGoldHere). The blog is titled On Sexual Fantasy and "Antis" (An Updated List of Resources)”
I hate promos but I made it specifically to have a one-stop location for resources like this. I hope it helps 👍
I'm a sad boy with big sword con, I need help
whats the anime at 15 minutes 46 seconds in? such amazing artwork, i usually like rustic apeal but that animation could catch on aswell
he said the name oshinamaru?
man everyone’s forgetting shotacon
You really deserve more subscribers
Thank you!
[Sorry this is so long btw]
You obviously dont have an insider perspective on Japanese society and culture. This is very well put together but seems more like a defense than anything. You don't seem to get the point of why lolicon is still a problem even in Japan. Your research is neglecting the fact that the vast majority of Japan aren't otakus, anime fans, or cosplayers but instead a normal society of mothers, fathers, and children which see the affect of children sexualization in the media.
The difference between the perceptionof the WORD lolicon or what it's done of the industry is irrelevant to the point and controversy that people have a problem with. You keep refering to your "research" but it's quite laughable because it highlights your outsider understanding and lack of understanding of REAL Japanese society and culture. Using otakus, anime/manga writers and fujoshis as a counter argument is ridiculous as not only are these people in the VAST minority but anime, cosplay and manga is still very niche in Japan despite misconceptions, so these people don't represent the popular opinion.
As someone who lives in Japan, I know how extremely sexualized children (mainly female) are. Child porn is huge here, and many people notice the huge problem with sexualizing children. This isn't about just style and aesthetic or cuteness and moeness it's about the fact that lolicon is used as a way to promote and portray child sexuality. I get your point but you are neglecting the fact that it is still a dark part of Japanese culture with dangerous consequences that needs to stop.
OhSoVeryKawaii uh thats JK clubs promoting pedophillia and not fictional drawings of lolis.
*+OhSoVeryKawaii* but the drawings aren't gateway outlets. the real thing requires actual willpower and social skills. and yes, I am implying that manga has more leeway than anime. those you read to yourself and your know what you're getting. televised sexualization -becomes suicidally boring- extends too far beyond the niche market.
I'm so happy to see we have a resident (fake) Japanese person to dispel all the delusions even the poor westerners that study Japanese culture in a bigger way than what weebs do, can't. Knowing the age of consent in Japan in no way explains why what you, with your western-oriented way of thinking, consider a problem that "normal" people from Japan don't. Neither does knowing the historical context as to why that thing that you consider to be a problem has been happening in Japan for so long now that it has become part of everyday culture of today. And calling it immoral isn't in no way childish, because, of course, your Western morality is the only acceptable one in the world and is objective. There is no way that morality is just a subjective spook. Thank you for your contribution, kind sir or madam!
This video is obviously not put together as a defense of lolicon. It is primarily concerned with the history of the term and its influence.
The Knight Of Buquicious I always wonder if you guys don't phisically cringe while exporting/typing 4chan formats on other comment boxes
Brilliant work, Joe. very in detail. I'm really glad this video pointed out that there are distinct differences in the meaning of the term Lolicon. I have always believed that Fantasy and reality are two different things, and indeed they are. Someone shouldn't be judged as a predator, when the character they have feelings for is of the fantasy world. The mistake is when people start to mix Fantasy with reality. Saying "Oh because he/she likes this type of character, they must also be that type of person, they must be a pedophile" when indeed that's not the case. The character they long for is of the fantasy genre, and it is a particular style/look of work, the aesthetic. The age of the character is different. Lets look at Lori from GATE. She is Loli style but she is also 7000 years old or older. For some one to consider some one a pedophile or preserve simply because of her aesthetic and without considering any other factors, would be stupid. This is why you can't compare fantasy with reality and shouldn't.
Otaku Deity Lmao. Sure cause having someone to be bazillion years old it's not a quick way to make a half ass attempt to wash their hands when the questions of "why does this drawing looks like a 11 year old?". It's the same with western media really, Twilight, for example, when the love doves are 17 and 117 years old respectively
Having read a good chunk of Pat's work before, including his essay, "The Lolicon Guy," which covers many of these ideas in more detail, as well as other writers on the subject, both western and Japanese, I have to say, I don't find these interpretations thoroughly satisfying.
One, I believe that the term "Lolicon," used here, is defined too broadly. While certainly it makes sense that the word has held a variety of meanings over it's lifetime, it's unfair to sweep them up and say, this term and this culture is the sum total of its connotations over the past 30 years. Using Lolicon to wrap up so many topics, to a modern audience with a wholly different conception of what it means, seems in a way almost futile. It's like explaining the etymology of the word "Dunce" with an anecdote of Dr. John Duns. Interesting, sure, but ultimately irrelevant, as our use of this language has become separated from that.
Two, I think it incorrectly associates certain changes in the anime industry to a "Lolicon Boom." While most people seem to agree on Gundam and Yamato being the two big ones everyone can agree on, this "third" or even "fourth" revolution has always been the topic of at least some debate. Some say Macross was the big game changer. Others, and perhaps the majority, point to Evangelion. Saying that the use of appealing anime girls was some great revolution in anime, when in fact it was really only an outpouring of the popular 80s idol culture at the time into anime, is a stretch. And what about the extremely noticeable consumption habit changes in the 90s, both Pre and Post Eva? That can hardly be chalked up to "the Lolicon boom" and probably has far more to do with the economic downturn than anything else.
And three, I think that a distinction needs to be drawn as Lolicon representation and Lolicon-centric consumption, and Lolicon-centric content creation. This video primarily speaks to Lolicon audience habits, not Lolicon creator and genre conventions, which is what most people speak of when they speak of Lolicon today. Not Lolicon as interpretation, not fans sexualizing Akage no Anne or whatever, but creators that consciously appeal to that demographic. Lolicon fandom perhaps is something that, even before it was given that name, has always been there. In the West and in the East. Defining Animage as a Lolicon Magazine because fans vote in some poll and they have Nausicaa on the cover? Come on, that's a stretch. You know that's a stretch.
Either way, good points, good video. And grade your language, Joe, this shit will fly over so many peoples' heads. I'm not even sure if I got it all.
And get a better mic, man.
>Either way, good points, good video. And grade your language, Joe, this shit will fly over so many peoples' heads. I'm not even sure if I got it all.
I don't think there was any problem with the language use in this video. There has been in other videos though.
5 upvotes for a man who didn't notice it was Patrick Galbraith narrating the video. Good joke.
Infinite Sheep 999 Of course I did, I'm not stupid. But Joe bears responsibility for it too.
>Interesting, sure, but ultimately irrelevant, as our use of this language has become separated from that.
I think that's the point, the word has such a vast difference in meaning that it's important to actually understand it's origins and how it's used in this very specific sub-culture.
Otherwise, we end up with people talking about, essentially, different things thinking they are the same, leading to the large arrays of misunderstandings we have today.
I don't think Joe bears any responsibility for Galbraith's language because I really don't think any of this stuff is off the cuff and strange that I don't understand what's he talking about. Even then, why should someone edit another person's language when it's already simple.
very nice editing
Thanks Priderice Rice!
I like the channle, but 3 videos on lolicon that don´t even mention that there is absolutely a genre of animated/drawn child pornography using the lolicon Monicker and plenty of "lolicon" material which is one hundred percent fetishistic and obviously , blatantly and unapologetically so and directed at people with pedophilic tendencies. Is just people "not seing it right" because, like, in the 80s it was about shoujo. Informative series but with an iceberg of purposely ignored information that is obvious for any anime fan that it is there. (hence so much division and segregation between anime fans towards the , lets say, "weirder ones" to put it kindly.
It would be preferable if they seeked psychiatric help and treat their dispositions instead of using scapism to validate them.
preferable to everyone including the person facing those mental health issues. A huge amount of real crimes could be avoided if people whose desires involve the abuse of other peoples rights received treatment rather than validation. You won`t get a pat in the back for being a pedophile just because drawn porn is not made ilegal.
as a lolicon, let me just say this: CUTE THINGS ARE CUTE
Glad to hear that.
Great video.
I hope it is able to fight some degree of ignorance about this subject.
I will spread it around where I can, but given how sensitive this subject is, I'll have to be careful when doing so.
Thank you so much!
this is well edited
There's a fundamental misunderstanding of lolicon in america.Madoka magica,made in abyss, when they cry, wixoss etc. Work almost entirely because the characters are lolis and it has nothing to do with sex. Conversely no game no life, kiss x sis etc plays loli sexuality in a (mostly) comedic way. There's really only a few shows(much more manga although largely H or doujins) that play the loli thing in a non comedic non abusive manner.(I'm not touching on the weird abusive shit)
the characters in Madoka Magica are not lolis.