Do We Really Need 10-Speed Transmissions?
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- Why Transmissions With Loads Of Gears Are A Good Idea
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There are very legitimate reasons why we're seeing 10-speed automatic transmissions implemented in new cars, such as the Lexus LC500. More gears means a broader range of gear ratios without massive steps between those gear ratios. It means you can keep your car's engine closer to peak horsepower in order to achieve maximum acceleration, and it means you can put your engine in the right load and RPM range in order to maximize efficiency.
This video will dive into the details of why more gears can be a good thing, even with the negative consequences such as additional complexity, frequent gear shifts, and time lost in acceleration from more frequent shifts. The Lexus LC500 pairs a 5.0 naturally aspirated V8 to a 10-speed automatic transmission, and it sounds quick beautiful churning through the gears. That's not to say the transmission isn't without flaws. Check out the video for full thoughts on 10-speed transmissions and the implementation within the LC500.
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My bicycle has a 21 speed manual transmission. Get on my level.
Mine has 27. I don’t want to level down. ;)
Most decent bikes have between 22 and 33 gear combinations.
😂 you are on my level. 21 is the new 33.
The new ones have less gears- 1x10!
Or road bikes 2x11
add 37 more gears, make it manual and you now have a real fast and furious car
Ngl I'd drive that
2911oscar or the mustang from Bullet.
You'll need to get rid of the passenger seat for that extra row of gears, unless you want to space each gear a couple of millimeters from each other.
You would have to get rid of the person shifting too, automatics are now winning all the drag races because us slow poke humans shift to slowly.
Sebbonx Xsebbon those aren't allowed in races
So we keep adding gears to get closer to a CVT, but nobody wants a CVT
Antoine Roquentin
That's the plan
what’s so bad about CVTs?
Some people dislike the constant pitch of the tone when accelerating (since the engine is always kept at the optimum rpm). I drive a CVT because of the technological benefits, but the sound is indeed.. meh..
Cvt is garbage that’s why
Parker Oviedo honestly, if they focused on serviceable instead of promising them for life, they will be so much better. If you make it needed to change the belts cheap and encourage to be changed frequently.
For years Jason has told me hello, and bid me welcome. And for years I have felt welcome.
You're very welcome here!
CVTs actually are used in high torque operations, many new farm tractors, even Case quad tracks with 500+ hp are using these transmissions now. I personally have one in a tractor and it is the best feature on the tractor, allowing for you to run any speed on a throttled down setting, saving diesel. Just thought you might find this interesting. Good video
Thanks for sharing, great info!
I wonder why they don't put CVT's in diesel semi-trucks? I drive a semi with an "auto" trans but its just using air to shift through the 12 gears for you (it's not really and auto transmission). I guess it's a cost thing or maybe harder to mesh up with the turbo?
CVTs in semis sound like a great idea. That'll keep the boost pressure up all the time and not cause the vehicle to lose momentum from those slow gear shifts. Even a full-auto (like Allisons) would be better than those automated manuals for acceleration.
There are other cvt designs that can handle high torque but there's a reason why they don't put them that often in western cars or trucks. One reason being the customer, as silly as it sounds, people don't seem to care about the higher system efficiency, they want the feeling of a "classic" transmission (that's why some EVs have features like a low forward speed when pressing the start button without pressing the breaks. The other reason being that those robust types of transmissions are often more expensive to manufacture than a simple automatic transmission, where the tooling is already there. You seen, money always plays a big role.
Cvt's wear out in a very bad way during gear ratio variation. Quickly shifting them trough a bunch of fixed gear ratios increases their lifespan
what we really need a is a manual CVT with a continuous lever as shifter (like the throttle lever for large aircrafts).
Seems fun
Imagine that in a paganni, which has an arcraft themed interior
I take it it doesn't exist? I've been trying to search for something like that online but to no avail.
@@dsdy1205 Doesn't exist because no one would buy it. Manuals are becoming less and less popular and the people who would most want to buy a manual cvt would rather buy a traditional manual transmission
@Default Name good on your dad. but tbh it would be pretty easy for toyotas and fords to inplement just a layer of electronics on their existing cvt to achieve manual control. cvt with padel shifters already exists for a long time. just swap out the padels with a continuous lever. i'm sure the big car companies already thought of that a very long time ago.
My knowledge for CVT transmissions were limited until I stumbled upon your videos and just by chance I got a hire car with one that day. I am now a fan of CVTs and love the idea of a company trolling the world by breaking records as you mentioned.
"Some super car company should put a CVT in a car to troll the world."
*Koenigsegg has entered the chat*
It's not a CVT tho
@@elpocasombra9237 not at all. Not even close. A CVT is a belt or chain driven transmission, made by adjusting the ratio of the input and output gear. A torque converter is a fluid coupling, where the driving plate drives the output plate by using pressurized fluid. Koenigsegg used a glorified Torque Converter to achieve a CVT like experience.
What K did is make a really big starter/alternator, attach it to the crank, make it connect to a really big battery, and then electric motors take power from that and make up for the torque that the engine doesn't have because it is in the highest gear always.
"Parental Supervision" love it...
I, too, want to see a CVT sports car. At the very least, a somewhat sporty car that lets you put it in "actual performance" mode instead of "go fast but pretend to have gears" mode.
Cars Simplified buy a CVT WRX
I recently bought a 2012 GS450h. Sport/Sport+ in that gives you no fake gears and it's a monster. The sound isn't even an issue, since by the time it gets to the revs that it would hold, you've lost your license. 0-60 in 5.2 and 0-100 in 12.6 (with a full battery) isn't bad. Bearing in mind that a 2008 GT-R does 0-60 in 3.5 and 0-100 in 11.0 that makes the GS actually quicker from 60-100 and the GT-R I saw last week can confirm this :) 42mpg average is amazing for a car that can do that too. I doubt the batteries will last if I keep trying things like that though...
I'm going to need way more video views per day before that's a viable option, but they do sound fun!
Those are impressive numbers! I bet that's a fun daily.
Honestly, it's fun in an odd way. Driving a car that has no visible exhausts and a hybrid badge that will muller an Aston down a slip road is great fun, but it's only really fun in that environment. I do mostly motorway miles so it made sense, but I wouldn't have chosen it for my old commute down country roads but that's down to size/weight rather than the gearbox.
I second CVT WRX, love my 2016. Only bad thing is turbo lag, STI is much better in that regard.
This totally explained for me why I seem to be burning through a lot of fuel in my company van. I drive with the aim of getting to my next site without delay - I'll accelerate through the gears using the full rev range to ensure I get to my destination quickly, and didn't really think I was using *that* much extra fuel in doing so. I knew using the higher rev range would use a bit more fuel, but I had no idea how significant the difference is. I did not realise that in accelerating beyond 2-3000 RPM I'm burning a lot of fuel for marginal gains. I think I'll adjust my driving style.
"You only need two gears." - Engineers of the Powerglide :)
as long as you have the cubic inches, your speeds are fast and faster.
20 speed transmissions are ALL the rage!
Jacob Frey Now days, Nothin is ever Good enough.
CVT transmission is the future.
Sebbonx Xsebbon won’t happens fast enough.
Electric will take over
Im incrementally watching this happen...lol
A million speed manual.
Parental supervision...nice.
Safety first!
Engineering Explained YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO, DAD
I remember reading an article in an engineering journal many years ago when I was in automotive school, that talked about how 9-speed automatic transmissions were the highest logical option that we'd ever see, based on the minimal gains in gearing beyond that in contrast to the added weight, complexity and losses. The article was so definite and certain of itself, and I remember thinking when I was reading it, "technology changes." It took a decade, but Lexus went and proved that article wrong! Cool!
Ford truck owner here - I’ve had a few different trucks over the years including 4 speed, 6 speed and 10 speed. The 10 speed is by far superior in terms of delivering torque or horsepower when you need it by keeping the engine revs right where it needs to be. It’s a very noticeable difference.
I prefer DCT over auto torque converters. DCT transmissions have less drivetrain loss and put more hp to the wheels.
@@yusufgta4341 the 10R80 can handle 1,000 HP very effectively. But it also depends on the application. I wouldn’t want a DCT in a truck. Imagine trying to tow a load with that, getting started on a hill. On a road car maybe but only if I was racing it on a course. Drag racing though the 10r80 is a great option.
@@Treyk901 you have a point. No need for a DCT in a truck. However, it's debatable between the DCT and 10 speed in a drag race. Both are very good depending on the driver but also launch. However, the DCT does parameter at launch at times.
@@Treyk901 the 10r80 can not hold more than 800hp reliably, on the mustang at least. Clutches are just to weak.
@@mache2784 the F-150 seems to be holding it just fine though. The transfer case on the other hand struggles.
Lexus: *Builds a 10 speed transmission*
CVT: am i joke to you?
@Feminism is Cancer Out of pocket
Parental supervision? :D okay jason
Haha, I’m hoping at least 5% realize it’s a joke.
Made me laugh.
I was SURE it was a joke when you met a car coming the other way on your 'closed road'.
I paused the video just to take my time laughing at it
Engineering Explained 95 percent are morons.
Saw this in my feed and was sort of 'blah', and watched it after I had nothing else left. Wow, once again a kick in the pants with excellent level of detail, simple/useful graphics that make it clear what and how. Got my wife's 06 Murano on its 2nd transmission (CVT), covered under warranty about 4K miles before their mea culpa warranty extension expired. Thanks for the explanation on the cvt.
I drove my buddies 2019 mustang gt, has a 10 speed. Crazy when you’re just cruising and you stomp the gas and it goes from 10th gear to 4th lol
Well yeah, it would do if it has that many gear ratios and you tell it to belt out all the power it's got....
And still cant catch an old chevy with a 4 speed
engineers: CVTs are most efficient
drivers: but we want gears
elon musk: LOL shifting
HECKproductions I wish batteries weren't the limiting weight factor for electric cars. A super light little "electric Miata" would be an amazingly fun car.
Elon Musk: "LOL shifting, but my jaguar E-type is my favorite car" :/
eleon musk: LOL i would buy an electric jag if there was one
HECKproductions there literally is one. There was a modern electric remake of the E-type jag a few years back.
The pre production Tesla Roadster had a 2 speed manual shift, but Tesla couldn't make it reliable enough so the 2 speed was dropped for production.
Lexus is one of the best in traditional automatics when you want it to be sporty it does it perfectly and when you want to cruise or be effecint it does that perfectly also they are more reliable, cheaper to maintain and repair than dual clutches
Lexus was one of the first to introduce 8 gears back in 2007 they were advanced for the time it was in the ISF
i just bought a 2011 ISF for 33,500$ canadian and it's ace
it's cheap to maintain but transmission dipsticks and fill holes are gone!!!
Pans have to be dropped and refill ATF is pumped up through the drain hole 😂
I thought their 8 speed came out in 2006 in the LS?
29 MPG in a 5 liter V8! 1750 at 85 MPH!!! Lexus was on a mission. I wonder how well the 10R80 does in the Mustang at 85 MPH and with max fuel efficiency.
With that fuel economy there is no need of eletric veicles. Hehe
In Australia I had a 2000 Holden Commodore with the 5.7L V8 LS1 and 4L60E 4 speed auto. It got 7.9L/100km (29mpg US) on the highway. So yeah it’s not uncommon. Now when you get to a traffic light and have to accelerate again, that average dropped to about 13L/100km. As I’m sure the Lexus does too.
@@alexs3187 Good point. I had a 95 Camaro with the LS1's immediate predecessor which was also about 5.7L, with the T56 manual and that car would get over 30 over a mostly highway trip.
It shouldn't take a ten speed, zillion dollar transmission to do that.
A 2007 Corvette Z06 can produce nearly equal mileage numbers and walk all over the Lexus in performance with a 6l or 7l V8.
This weekend I got 27.2 mpg after driving 320 highway miles at 80 mph
Just imagine a CVT with manual control (lever) and a clutch pedal... I would try it
And programmable gear ratio ! That would be sick !
Combine harvesters have those. Claas dominator has a manual lever that adjusts a pulley like a CVT, a single gear has different speeds at same throttle input
I'd try it... but I wouldn't buy it.
Cvt doesn’t need a clutch
@@vahagnyengibaryan4253 If you don't have a computer controlling a torque converter, it does in fact need a clutch
The 2-speed transmission comment reminds me of my first experience with a power-glide. A friend of mine had a LeMans with one & if you floored in from a stop it wouldn't up shift until around 60 m.p.h.
Great content & explanation as usual.
👍👍I really like this video. For me it is one of the best videos you have made so far. The graph also answers many questions I had in my head until now. It would be cool to see the efficiency graph in relation to torque as there surely is linkage.
You could consider the vertical axis to be torque, as load is essentially how much throttle you're giving it, which in turn is how much torque you're making. Glad you enjoyed the video!
Engineering Explained I always assumed that your peak engine efficiency was at peak torque.
Eoin Kenny+ AFAIK for turbodiesel engines there's a pretty close relationship between the torque curve and maximum possible efficiency at that engine speed.
It would look slightly different because at x% load you don't get the same amount of torque depending on the rpm. But the basic ideo is the same.
I saw so many of these on the 74 to palm springs when the press stuff was going on and god was it beautiful
you will see every exotic you can imagine on that road and this car still stood out
I rented a CVT 2019 Nissan Versa for a trip, and it "shifts" like an automatic. Very annoying.
@PikPobedy No, the Nissan way is to make it start chewing up the belt at or about 100k miles. Oh, and then to laugh at customers who complain.
keyword, rented
Yh dude nissans are just the shittest cars to exist. Should have got a Honda!
@@chuckschillingvideos dude I worked at a Nissan dealership in 2015-2016, it was not at all uncommon for those CVTs to go bad at 30k miles.
And the "shifting" was just there to make the car feel "normal", it had no real benefit, actually hurt economy and driveability.
CVTs are more efficient than a normal automatic, but also very weak transmissions. And yes to an enthusiast they sound/feel wrong.
@@tanvirhussain6106 Nissans have become quite shitty these days, but still miles better than any Korean car. I don't care how fancy they try to make them seem, any Kia/Hyundai (yes even Genesis) are unreliable inefficient cheap feeling garbage. Give me a shitty Nissan any day over one of those turds lol I agree any proper Japanese car (Honda, Toyota, etc) is a much better automobile though
Ford and GM created a 10 speed together
and its total crap...ford already had recalls on them.
LEX Maximaguy87 yea for one aluminum piece. The entire transmission isn't crap. Chevy doesn't have a recall
My coworkers truck got a recall
ford did not like the gm aspect of the trans....so they changed it...go figure.
haha LOL haha F150 ?
"The Joy of Driving". Is this some new show about happy little transmissions that need a friend?
Nice ROY G. BIV reference, red orange yellow green blue indigo violet. Hopefully a lot of people remember this, among hundreds of other things! LOL
It sounds good, that's for sure!
Fantastic explanation. A bit of Calculus on why having infinitely many ratios will keep you on the optimal performance line all the time, cool. Thanks to Newton for the Integral.
After one decade
"Is 50 speed necessary?"
The physics explanation is correct, but the car you used for this example is wrong. The Lexus LC500 car has 10 gears yes, but they are not closer spaced amongst all 10 gears. It hits 40mph in 1st, 67mph in 2nd, 89mph in 3rd and 110mph in 4th gear. It's top speed is reached with the 7th gear and the other top 3 gears are just overdrive gears for economy in highways. It has the same ratio spacing like any other 7 speed gearbox plus 3 overdive gears for grand touring. However there is the LC500H, the hybrid version, that has a 4 speed gearbox combined with a CVT.
Similar to how Honda has setup their new 10 speed AT. Cruising around town is done in 7th gear, 8, 9 & 10 are for hwy only. Mine shifts like lightning, very fast and very smooth. Honda's first Helical Gear AT
I learned how to drive in a 1961 Buick Electra. It was equipped with a twin-turbine "Dynaflow" transmission. Dad liked to brag that his car had an infinite drive-force. For a boulevard cruiser, that old Buick had decent feeling acceleration. The beauty of the Dynaflow over other automatics was the sheer simplicity of design and operation. In spite of having three, lead-footed teen drivers, that car never had transmission problems.
my first car had a two speed...i remember being very excited about my second car that had three forward speeds
Aaaaand... I had 4 forward gears on my first car.. been wanting 5 speed until I got a 5 speed + O/D automatic escape
that is an excellent engineering explanation! crystal clear and no area left in the dark.
Questions answered. Thanks.
2-speed Powerglide is still not too bad, then.
That Lexus grill looks stoopid.
I was hoping he was going to mention the Williams CVT F1 car.....I'm happy :)
Jason, I know that road. I was not aware they closed it for car testing. :) Maybe you would like to test my 2004 NSX up that road?
Haha, did you catch the "parental supervision" part? May have been joking. :)
Edit: And of course! Could you shoot me an e-mail (found on "about" page)?
Ummmm. I'd like to do that. Is the offer good for anyone?
Oh boy, these two, combined shenanigans on that road. It'll be anarchy!😄
Make it happen! I want to see an NSX on this channel
Engineering Explained If it was a closed course why did you follow the yellow line instead of using the road "properly"? 😎
My first experience with a high performance manual car was when my sister's boyfriend gave me a ride in his 67 Chevy Nova SS with a 327 cu in 350 HP. He made 2 runs power shifting the thing and I never felt anything as violent before or since. I mean it was just twisting and booming with each shift and he had to struggle to keep it straight. He just kept it wide open and banged gears. There was just a fraction of a second when the clutch was disengaged followed by a violent tire screeching thrust when it re-engaged. That push was way higher than the ideal curve you drew for the CVT but tires in those days didn't grip much. Probably what allowed the drivetrain to survive. Then you have eye watering thrust of a high performance snowmobile in comparison. These things have had CVT's for years and a launch on those is also amazing. From an initial arm tearing pull of the line it feels like a never ending push until you have full engagement all with the engine at peak RPM the finally a climb to red line.
Both are thrilling but only one needed practice and talent.
GlassTopRX7 I'm not sure you understood what I tried to explain. What he was doing was keeping the throttle pegged and just stabbing the clutch to shift. The effect was kind of dumping the clutch from redline or just over at each shift. Was it as fast as modern automatics, of course not, but they cut spark or fuel or both while shifting. BTW, there are no longer any "new" Accord V6's.
"Closed Course - Parental Supervision - Do Not Attempt" made me laugh
6 is all you need. My volvo’s 5 speed auto is darn near sufficient becaused they are spaced PERFECTLY. It could use a 6th gear on the top end because 2300 rpm at 65 is a bit excessive for flat and downhill stretches. Then again, it doesn’t downshift going uphills, so that’s a plus. 8 is really nice, but you can get away with 5 or 6. In my opinion anything more than 8 is excessive. All the weight, cost, and complexity of excessive gear ratios isn’t worth it when you can intelligently and purposefully space 5 or 6 gears and do just fine. Law of diminishing returns I guess.
My six speed Volvo is great
My f150 has the 6r80 tranny.......I am so pleased with this tranny.......even at 80 my tach is only 2000rpm........I think the 6 speed is the way to go
My vehicle has 7 gears. the 7th starts at about 60mph. I say 8 gears is the max you would need with consideration of making the first gear small enough that it can be skipped or quickly changed if you will not accelerate hard for better fuel economy.
You can “get away” with only 2 gears. But 10 speeds are better than 6. 6 is better than 4. 4 is better than 2.
@@alexs3187 there is a theoretical max number of gears that would be worth it though. Even size and weight aside, 0.12 seconds per shift will slow you down if you have too many shifts even if you get more ideal acceleration
People buy sports electric cars, so a cvt sport car will sell.
dodiloi CVT in today's car don't have durability to handle much torque. I would stick to EV rather than CVT
dodiloi There comes a point when if you have an insane amount of torque to play with it overrides the animalistic need to shift or hear the noise. Otherwise they would just put playing cards on the motor. Or something equivalent, not quite as asinine.
Jason just said this is nonsense. Just because we're used to seeing CVTs mated to econoboxes, doesn't mean a sports application is not possible or wouldn't be reliable.
dodiloi yuppies buy electric sport cars. Those who love the driving experience still buy petrol
Leo driving experience, yeah with the power steering, with the traction control and ABS enabled at all times, with the automatic gearbox. "Man I love skydiving except I do it in a vertical wind tunnel - all that real altitude and parachuting is too much!" Give me a break. You'll have a say in "driving experience" after you buy a Caterham 7 or something of the sort.
A lot of drag race cars use a 2 speed powerglide.
Always found that interesting.
shift time matters there perhaps
The torque converter sort of acts like a slipping clutch, therefore it is kind of like a fluid CVT in a way. Top fuel dragsters use 1 gear like a manual transmission, and has a centrifugal clutch that eventually fully engages the pressure plate depending on the amount of centrifugal force is created once the dragster starts moving.
I drove a Camry rental car with a 4cyl and 8-speed automatic, it was very nice. Shifted smooth, always plenty of power, turned 1200 RPM at 75 MPH while getting 48 miles per gallon.
Great informative video as always!
10 gears? Might as well switch to a CVT at that point
CVT transmissions, if done right, can be great. I have a 2015 Subaru Outback 3.6r with a CVT that can pretend to shift through 6 gears so it feels like a conventional auto. There is also a manual mode and flappy paddles on the steering wheel that lets you manually switch between 6 pretend geeks, which makes it feel like a DSG. I see way too much complaining in comments when anyone mentions CVTs. It’s a shame that people aren’t willing to try things out for themselves, instead they just echo what they hear and think they are smart.
The joy of driving is experiencing greater acceleration whilst experiencing less g-forces. What makes me happy is when my little vehicle gets up to speed in order to merge into a limited access highway, and does so without causing me to feel uncomfortable g-forces. What makes me happy is when other drivers who see my little, low-powered, subcompact, pulling slowly onto the merge ramp, either slow down to let me in, or move out of the way to let me in, and then after a few seconds it dawns on them that their maneuvers were unnecessary. Before they have even finished their maneuvers, my vehicle has already reached a higher speed than they were going when they first started maneuvering. And my vehicle has reached this speed without causing me to feel much of anything. Just, one moment I proceeding slowly on the ramp, and the next moment I am on the highway going very fast, and in my rearview mirror I see all those nice, considerate drivers far behind me. All I have to do to experience the joy of UFO-like acceleration is push the throttle pedal down as far as it will go and leave it there. Then once I reach the speed I want I take my foot off the throttle pedal and set cruise control. The little engine quickly gains speed, going from about 2000 rpm to 6600 (redline), and then stays put at that speed, while the CVT does all the work of making the vehicle go faster. Some people prefer being jerked around by downshifts. I prefer accelerating without feeling like I am being jerked around.
Yes, car makers need 10 speeds. That’s how car manufacturers keep you locked into a car payment for the rest of your life, because you wouldn’t dare own one off warranty.
Ryan Ryan
It's Lexus, not some shitty US company who can't even make reliable 5 speed transmissions.
Yea its a lexus so its a toyota, its not the 90s anymore. They're not quite as bad as German car as of lately but they still fall apart 1 day after the warranty expires and because "its a Lexus" you pay hyper inflated prices for repair parts. The only difference between a Lexus wheel bearing and a Chevy wheel bearing is the price, half the time the parts come from the same third party suppliers.
I'll have to call bs on that, lexus is one of the most reliable brands right now, and I'm sure they are more reliable than a chevy.
okleydokley yes, but the video title doesn’t say “Does Lexus make a good 10 speed transmission.” It’s speaking generally as am I. I agree Lexus makes great products.
Ricky V yes, but the video title doesn’t say “Does Lexus make a good 10 speed transmission.” It’s speaking generally as am I. I agree Lexus makes great products.
ROYGBIV! Love it.
Good ole' Bill Nye!
Engineering Explained I got a response! Thanks, Jason, ya made my day!
I still remember 50 years ago in economics class learning about the fertilizer corn output in economics. At some point more fertilizer does not justify the returns of more corn. Same with gears at some point just too many.
My brothers friend had a Simi truck that had a 18 speed transmission,a 4 speed brownie box and a 2 speed rear end all hooked up to equal 144 gears forwards and 16 gear in reverse.
I'm glad you have so many subs. You deserve it
Thanks, very kind!
Do you think we'll ever see performance CVTs? I work for BRP and Ski Doos have been using CVTs forever, and those aren't made for fuel economic driving and they are pretty fun.
Indeed. Snow machines have used them forever.
Very durable & simple work on.
The automobile versions not so much, but efficiency is the primary goal.
GS450h...not sure if the gearbox is technically a "performance" CVT but it's a bloody rocket so I'm counting it.
If CVT would allow easy and cheap belt change it would be worth it but that will never happen
Always learning new stuff from your videos. And you resemble a friend of mine. Thank you!
I have a CVT and it's great. Definitely not a performance car, but floor it and it just sits at the same revs and takes you all the way up to speed, feels good man.
At this point I'd rather get a CVT.
Also: more gears than my truck (I have 8)
I too would like to see a high torque capable CVT, but I also like 5 & 6 speed manual H pattern cars so *shrug*
Love the last ten seconds or so with the V8 sound :)
1750rpm at 85mph on the highway! Damn that's a blessing for those long journeys!
I would like 5 gear + 1 highway cruise overdrive manual.
how are the Subaru WRX CVT transmissions ? heard good things about them
Slickpete83 Wife has a 2014 Impreza sport with it. I prefer using the flappy paddle fake 6spd. I'm a lover of the shift.
It does accelerate well tho despite less than 200 horsepower. Would be WAY better tho without the torque/throttle delay. That's a serious acceleration killer off the line. Doesn't hit full throttle/torque input til almost 30mph. "Downshifts" are very sluggish too.
Otherwise tho, very nice.
They're made by JATCO and are considered to be some the worst transmissions in the world. If you're getting a Subaru stick with a manual and you'll have a solid vehicle.
@@theinternets7516 terrible engine needs a terrible transmission for the terrible drivetrain. now complete. worst reliability engine+short service interval=none left on the road, other than enthusiasts with deep pockets
Quick note on the blue acceleration curve, it's about power
Power = Work / Time
Work = Force * distance
Power = Force * distance / Time = Force * velocity = mass * acceleration * velocity
Given that a car's power and mass is fixed (ignoring relativistic effects...) you get
Constant power = Constant Mass * acceleration * velocity
Therefore, acceleration is inversely proportional to velocity, hence that downward looking curve.
I wish I had you as a Prof maybe I would have loved Engineering. Life just makes more sense with this channel.
meanwhile I still have a 4 speed auto transmission
Push that over drive button for extra power! Lol
@@rightlanehog3151 it still common in 3rd world countries for entry level family cars, while more expensive cars has already used 6 or 7 speed auto.
The high light of this vedio : CVT is great
i need a cvt sport car in my life
They’re more boring than torque converter autos
its ok if you care more about the feel rather than being more accurate and faster
Cvt are used in the newest farm tractors. Handling torque is not a problem.
Yeah if you're not purist enough to get a manual might as well get the most efficient transmission (CVT)
I think an interesting topic would be "manually controlled CVT". I have a Nissan CVT car and it seems to me in my case the CVT has lower weight/load limit than the manual geared alternative. Also, I think another interesting topic would be to show the BSFC range as a function of engine power and discuss how various transmissions make the engine take various paths in that domain. I think CVT behave weird by design because their control scheme priviledges fuel economy instead of maximum power delivery.
I have a 2019 Duramax and drove the 2020 with the 10 speed. It’s a night and day difference. Can’t wait to upgrade.
I agree with what you are saying, but it sounded like you were mixing manual and automatic shifting in your opinion section. Were you saying you think it's more fun to drive an AUTOMATIC car that shifts a lot? Because if you were talking about the fun of shifting gears in a manual transmission, which I agree with, I think 10 gears would be too much. Finding a gear would be a nightmare unless a different mechanism was used. I bought an available six speed for my MR2 Spyder and it was the worst decision I could have made. Not because of the six gears, but because it is a crappy six speed. Despite that, I do have trouble getting the right gear (remember the crappy six speed part?). I can only imagine trying to find the right gear with 10. If you referring to automatics, then I think there is a place for a reliable CVT in the sports car market. Why not have the best?
Speaking exclusively of automatics in this video.
What about complexity and cost to maintain/repair?
S.P. Ltd.
People who own American cars don't get this, but the transmission should last the life of the car.
S.P. Ltd.
Also, at 1750 rpm highway, wear on the motor is very low.
Since its a Toyota I am confident it will be reliable. I was referring to other manufacturers that don't have the same reputation for quality. As for me I only own and drive cars with manual transmissions.
Excellent explanation thankyou from Perth Australia
Wow the sound at 2:13 is fantastic!
Give me a wide power band and a 5 speed manual and I'm fine with that.
Wide power band and discrete gearing doesn’t exist. That’s why electric powered vehicles and CVT are superior.
Darin Pearson it's called a properly sized turbocharger. A flat power band from 3k to 7k rpms is what I call wide power band.
Darin Pearson superior in performance, undeniable. But in terms of driver interaction/enjoyment, manual is better.
If you have a 5 speed manual, you don't HAVE a 'wide power band". You'll have 5 power bands. You'll have 5 little rainbow shapes. Here's what a the powerband looks like for an EV -----------------------------------------. It's always available. Instantly. You're always in the right gear because there ARE no gears. Only ONE moving part. All magnet power. That's what an EV is: magnets chasing electrically charged magnets.
Now I want a high performance CVT aftermarket gearbox. Any suggestions?
The 2016 subaru wrx sti nbr special had a CVT transmission, don't really know of any other performance cars with a CVT
No you really don’t
AR 97 I really do. Manuals sound good but are ineffective
Flavia Pitariu check out the Williams F1 car with the CVT
There are none. Cvts are a less efficient transmission. None are developed for high power. And they are really hard to program for the specific engine
I love the thought thats put into all this tech in cars but man does it make things complicated for old school mechanics.
In a few years, all our Lexus vehicles will have a minimum of 8 gears.. it's an exciting time to be in the car industry!
Ford does it even on their trucks. Mostly for towing and fuel economy
6 is the sweet spot.
just look at motorbikes..they've been 6 speed for 50 years..
no car needs more than 6..just over kill
I would say 8 the ZF transmission is fantastic but 6 is probably optimal for a manual shift.
The number of gears needed is based on the efficient width of the power plants RPM capability and the speed range of the driven vehicle. Multiple gears allow the power delivery to be kept as close as feasible to either the highest horsepower power output peak of the power plant or the most fuel efficient point for the unit no matter what is used for fuel. At the end of the day, a CVT would be most efficient for acceleration because by keeping the power plant at its maximum power output and infinitely matching the gearing to match road speed to power peak, you get the best acceleration. But people for the most part like the feel and sound of “running through the gears” over a steady constant speed for the power unit. So that’s what they want. I had a Nissan Cube for a while which had the CVT. I found I liked driving it a lot. The smoothness of the CVT was outstanding and it was always in the right gear for whatever condition I was in. It’s ability to adapt to changing load and road conditions without any fuss was great. It also extracted the best power available out of the small hp motor and delivered it very well. It also delivered very good fuel economy while doing it. It just flat out worked. And there was no need to drive it flat out all the time either. The reason the car went away was it got clobbered in the rear end crash while a pedestrian was crossing the intersection in front of me. Not because it broke. My van which replaced the Cube has a 9 speed automatic. The Cube definitely was a better shifter and more efficient transmission performance wise. My old pickup has a 4 speed automatic which is more satisfying to drive with its v8 over the vans 4 cylinder 9 speed automatic because of its v8 torque, feel, sound and smoothness. But it likes gas. Lots of it. The Prius hybrid we also drive has a CVT transmission and its smoothness and efficiency is very good. And it’s not as slow as many people think they are. If you want it to, it moves out very responsively. Plus I enjoy its real 50+ mpg on the highway. A 10 speed transmission is currently pretty cool for a car or light truck/suv, but at the end of the day, I do not think there would be very many people who would buy a 10 speed manual outside of commercial truck users. A 5, 6 or maybe 8 speed manual, but then they become a chore for most people to drive vs an automatic.
You really do make a good case for a CVT in the video.
I would argue purely from a subjective point. Having less gears say 6 would be far more enjoyable under heavy sustained acceleration (straight away or down shifts coming into a tight corner ) a 6 speed would be reving, shift,reving,shift. As opposed to a 10 speed which would be shift,shift,shift.... you don't get as much engine noise... and let's face it... that's half the enjoyment, listening to that engine roar.
I don't quite understand. If you accelerate to 60 mph you're only doing so while in gear, so you'll have just as much noise getting up to speed regardless of which transmission you choose. And listen to the LC500 at 9:22, it sounds wonderful!!
7 speed transmission is too much for me, but still have great acceleration in higher gears.
Engineering Explained I know that CVT's gear ratio can be override, so we can increase the lowest value of gear ratio, but does it will shorten its lifetime? I never hear the sound of CVT cars because many people in my town rarely override the transmission (and that's why most CVT cars here are suck at uphill).
I'm with Craig to some extent- longer gear ratios = more time near the sweet spot for sound, which let's face it is the only reason not to have a CVT.
Longer gears and a pause between shifts is how God wants a car to sound: Example is a 996 GT3. Pure joy and much nicer than the PDK of nowadays
Six speed manual still king! Change my mind..
Austin Voigt Ok. I’ll start by correcting you. It’s not “six speed”, it’s “six gears”. Next, how many “gears” do electric cars have? If you want driver engagement by manually changing gears, I agree with you, six gears is fun. If you want speed and efficiency, then consider your mind as changed.
You can call it both "six speed" or "six gears" its the same thing. Also whats not efficient about it? You can go just as fast and have alot more fun. I guess it also depends on if the car is stock or modified. Sorry i'm just ignorant..i'm old school and refuse to accept that auto trans have come a long way.
I work a Chevy dealership and when i got in one, I was like wtf 7 gears??
That's what motorcycles usually have
I refuse to buy automatics. Staying in the used car market in the future
My grandpa's top-of-the-line Tahoe (also with the rst performance pack, so 4.5 0-60) has a 10 speed auto
You have an amazing ability in explaining complex topic in a straightforward and understandable way.
If my 2018 GMC Terrain with 9 speed transmission is any indication, the extra gears are going to require some engineering magic for those of us driving in single digits and sub-zero weather in winter. The transmission searches for the right gear until the drive train warms up. Combine that with their turbo charged engine and when it finally finds a gear, the turbo may have spooled up to the point that the transmission will be slammed. It ain't pretty. It definitely needs some real world refinement.
the 6 or 7 speed (forget which) slushbox in our Chrysler minivan does the same thing. When it was -25F out this winter the trans wouldn't warm up ever. Had to feel it start to shift and drop the throttle, and then reapply throttle at just the right rate/time so it would hold that shift. Not fun.
Ah, the Chrysler minivan. While arguably the most significant design to come along for versatility in a family vehicle, they are a reliability mess. My last one cost me $295 a month to own in repairs alone and it was barely two years old when I got it. Transmissions, broken rocker towers, failed power steering pump, coolant leak engine failure and rusty body panels were just par for the course. That experience drove me to lease. In two more years I can give GM their questionable transmission back and walk away unscathed.
The day the minivan died was a gut wrencher. The Grand Caravan years were a love hate thing. It hauled kids, pets, plywood, drywall and pretty much anything I ever needed to haul. I definitely took a hit trying to follow the buy it and drive it until it dies model there. On a cheerful note, I feel zero anxiety when my Terrain misses a shift on a cold winter day and slams the tranny when the turbo kicks in. It's failure will be someone else's headache.
Welcome to GM?
I like that car, but the grill is hideously sized. The design of the grill is great, but its just too large for function. Oversized grills are trendy today.
Yet, if you go to Japan, you will find that Lexus has much better styling than a lot of other Japanese cars - well at least for my tastes.
The big Lexus grill is hideous, period!
Oversize grilles with fake sections in the middle where the front crash bar is.
I daily drive a standard transmission vehicle, but I've driven some of the newer turbo subaru's and honda's with cvt's and haven't been disappointed. I'd love to see a company put a cvt in something like a sports car or luxury car
Glad to see you in Between the Lines, and as always an informative and very helpful video.
Such complexity all made redundant by EVs.
Samuel Rosenberg : By complexity I'm referring to the EV not needing a transmission at all. How many moving parts and points of failure does that eliminate? I'd guess about a hundred parts that don't need to be built or maintained. Then you look at the motor/engine comparison. How many moving parts does an AC induction motor have? Answer is one, the armature. An internal combustion engine has how many parts, many having to endure millions of explosions in it's lifetime?
All the advantages of EVs are made worthless by their pathetically slow "refueling" times.
This is the ever creeping slow leak of technology into new vehicles. Designed obsilescence. Can't sell more cars unless you come out with something new. Smoother shifts is getting us used to the next leap of turbine/electric hybrids with wheel motors.
i don't think we'll see wheel motors. Too much unsprung mass. I keep hoping for a 4 in board motor electronic diff type car. I've been wanting to build an RC one for a long time now, but considering i know nothing of the math, and don't have any RC anything means it would be a long slog to get something working.
That's how it was until Tesla. Now your car gets free upgrades while you sleep.
All Tesla can do is rearrange the deck chairs. The hardware is either there or not. Software upgrades can't add hardware.
Everyone knows how awesome automatic updates on tech are! Basically unnoticeable unless it randomly bricks your device.
Jeff
That's why Tesla does everything in software and not hardware. That's why there are no physical buttons, just a touchscreen.
For example they recently improved the braking distance of the Model 3 with just an overt-the-air update. Another example is self-driving. The hardware is already there, they just have to finish the software. Then there's voice control, and many many other things that only require software.
Some large farm tractors have CVT’s. Many Snapper self propelled and riding mowers have CVT’s.
what is great about 10 speed transmissions is for an off-roader we can spread out the ratios and have all low and high gears in one box. that way when i need the extra torque of a low gear on hard pavement i can select whatever i want without stopping the vehicle to select low range and then not having to stop and back up to get it out of low range. Unimog style!
Yeah, I’ll take a 10 speed manual transmission. A 6 speed with 4 overdrive gears.
I actually didn't know "Overdrive" existed until a friend in the historic vehicle scene clued me up on what it was. Having more than one does not count, they are additional gears, Sir haha
My car is a 4 speed auto.
Same bro
mine is a 5 speed auto
On top of it being an auto, it's so old that shifts are controlled by a throttle valve (tv) cable instead of a computer lmao
That will still drive, after aliens EMPs us into the stone age.
E39 M5
6 speed manual, my dude.
We own a 9Speed Auto in our Grand Cherokee with 8 speeds forwards. Best box I’ve ever owned. Incredible technology. I can get fuel consumption down to 7.8l/100 on the highway and 9 urban. Not bad for a 2.5tonne vehicle. More gears are much better.
I still enjoy the discussion on CVT vs gearing - it sounds like you are stating that what the performance car buyer is looking for is actually a higher jerk / jounce. So not just a high acceleration (rate of change of velocity), but a high jerk (rate of change of acceleration)
Well, in this video specifically I was discussing acceleration. Higher G's is more fun, even if it may be slightly slower as a result of more shifts.