Then you likely know he missed the reason why the converter has such a high torque capacity in the Lock mode. The big change, around 2007, was changing from a light duty TC-lock for light torque in top gear(s) only, to a heavy duty, dual disc clutch that locks up in every gear. Also, he said lock-up was only in gears 1 and 6, not true. In the video he was shifting in many gears that were locked, for 1:1 direct drive. I first discovered this new generation automatic in a 2008 Mercedes C300 4Matic 7 speed.
KevinK2 I'm going on a limb here. He didn't say it locked up only in 1st and 6th, he said it was straight through. Now, I'm not sure about 1st, but 6th could easily be a 1:1 input to output ratio, with 7th and 8th as overdrive gears, and the rest as so called under drive gears. I'm still trying to work out exactly what he meant, but my guess is that the input is only driving the sun gears of each epicyclic element, in series, to give the lowest possible ratio, whereas 6th would have the ring gears locked, and the such that the whole epicyclic assembly rotates at engine speed. (A little over ten years ago I used to service these types of gear system almost daily, these days fibromyalgia means I only drive vehicles with them, rather than service and repair them. That said, the 6HP in my Phaeton needs serviced. It slips badly in the upper 3 gears.) I'll happily take correction on the power transfer path if I've got it back to front. 😄
@@taylorsimonr Thanks for the comment. At 7:18 he said "for 1st gear and 6th gear ... it's a locked-up direct drive" But now I realize the point he made was likely the other gears have gear mesh(s) with high efficiency (98+), but in those 2 gears, there is no gear mesh. This is what you explained very well. My main point was he didn't mention what was responsible for the huge change in atx performance, the muti disc heavy duty TC clutch, for nearly full torque lock-up, by-passing the fluid coupling. Sorry to hear the Fibro, it's RSD that have my tools collecting dust. I rebuilt an old manual box on a Triumph, with the cluster gear on caged needles riding on the dead shaft. Gear bore was spalled so I sketched up over-boring and fitting in a drawn-cup needle brg for smooth rollin again. Friends with machinist helps.
Got this trans in my M340i. It's a killer gearbox. Always in the right gear, and if it isn't, it can get to it fast. It's smooth and seamless when driving normally and fast and ferocious when driving hard. Love it!
Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen (ZF) which means gearing/gearwheel factory and Friedrichshafen is in southern Germany at the Swiss border. It exists since 1915. I worked on the Saarbrücken factory at the French border building 8HP gearboxes. Greetings and great show.
Tyler Beeson Too much praise... The engineers made a good design, also there is very strict quality control and I had a good time and a motivated team of workers and technicians around me. I’m guessing the 8HP will live on for a moment in hybridized form (electric motor at the output shaft).
I had the ZF 8HP in a M135i (old one) - my favourite gearbox. No clutches to worry about. You get the best of both - pure automatic as well as fast gear changes and great fuel economy due to a quick torque converter lock up. The downside I found is that sometimes at low speeds like in traffic the gearbox changing gears would cause a surge, but wasnt really any bother to me. Aston Martin also use these gearboxes.
Hi Jason, just to confirm, the new Continental GT doesn’t use the ZF 8HP. The new one uses the Porsche PDK box. The previous generation GT and the Bentayga use/d the 8HP though. Source: I might work for Bentley.
Whoops!!! Looks like I used the wrong photo. I wasn't positive about the current gen but knew the previous ones did, so when looking for press photos I just went with current. Good catch, and thanks for pointing this out!
Engineering Explained yeah, on Wikipedia it shows the GT as using the 8HP, but the link hasn’t been changed to what was the current gen at the time to what is now the old gen. Would be great to see you trying out a Bentley sometime soon and giving your impressions. Not how it would tie in with your channel apart from being essentially two VR6 engines sharing a crank. Sure you can think of something!
i have an A b10 v8 and your switchtronic gearbox is still going strong at 190,000 miles :) i think this was also made buy zf and modified buy the company in bavaria starting with A :)
I love ZF. Not least because they are owned by a non-profit charitable trust and the profits ZF makes go to meals-on-wheels, kindergartens, OAP homes, hospitals etc.
Gustav Meyrink Thay became big due to the competitive advantage of tax free charity status enabled them crush the opposition. Sanitarium here in Oz has dodgy tax free 'church' status here in Oz, and thier main competitior, 'Kellogs' isnt happy about thier competitiors artificial competitive advantage.
@@nordic5490 As the scientologists found out churches are not tax exempt in Germany, only non-profit organizations are. Why would they want to crush the competition when they will never make a profit for anyone? In the case of ZF it is the elected city council of Friedrichshafen who decides where the money goes. There is no individual or group of individuals who gain anything in terms of money, power or prestige when those companies do well. Also German CEOs earn considerably less than their anglo-saxon counterparts, probably because every company above a certain size must have a union rep as a permanent board member so everybody knows what everybody earns. Result: No runaway remuneration of board members, better wages and conditions for employees. You should read up on why ZF came to be owned by a charitable trust.
@@nordic5490 I think you're mixing something up here. ZF is a stock company just like most other big companies in the world. The difference is that all their stocks are in the hands of two charities. Those two charities want their share of the pie every year as well, just like in other companies. You're right though that this share is actually a lot smaller than four other companies
So ZF being separate from automakers, I think they have the ability to build stuff that actually will last? I assume there have been some issues with these ZF8's but probably nothing compared to some other models?
Great video as always, Jason. It is astonishing that this transmission is nearly a decade old but there's still nothing in the market that quite manages to offer its impressive blend of attributes. I come from Malaysia, a market where automatics suffer very high failure rates due to various factors, but I have yet to hear any complaints of the ZF 8HP's durability and reliable. Such a well-engineered piece of hardware.
@@EngineeringExplained I have even tried the 8HP on an Iveco van, an experience that opened my eyes to how impressively versatile this transmission is.
The ZF-5HP24 in my '03 BMW X5 (4.4L V8) is still going strong with over 220k miles on it. This X5 has even been used to tow a 5k lb trailer between FL and TX (over a dozen times). Fluid and filter got changed at 100k and 180k. Will be doing another change at 240k.
Cool video. I've been working around projects for this transmission almost my entire career as a mechanical engineer. But whenever I visit the plant where they built them I'm still impressed every time how everything comes together.
I can't believe how far automatic transmissions have come in my lifetime and this century especially. I had an 83 Ford F-150 with a 3 speed automatic... maybe it had a 4th gear or overdrive but I think it was only 3 speed. And just a few years ago I was looking at the Ford website and looking at all the options available for the trucks and I was interested in going back to driving a manual transmission but I noticed that they no longer had a manual transmission option. They had 7 or 8 speed automatics. And I was shocked that auto had become the only choice. And I happened to run into my cousin who I hardly ever see because he drives over the road semi truck and we got to talking about it and he told me that the new semi he drives actually has an automatic transmission. I was absolutely floored because that was unheard of before. And I asked him how well it works and he said he was skeptical at first but it works just fine. Having been in semis before on trips with my cousins I can tell you that being in control of the gear you're in is a big part of handling the extreme weight and size of a semi, especially on grades/hills. So to hear him say that the automatic is great is just a testament to how good the technology has gotten.
Is it a conventional automatic as in this video with torque convertor and planetary gears or an automated manual transmission (AMT) the AMT is automatic but has solenoids to shift for you and being made similar to a manual are able to handle higher torque loadings than a "conventional" auto. Even dual clutch transmissions shift automatically as do CVTs so in todays environment, when speaking of autos, you need to clarify which one.
It's an "auto shifting" transmission. Same manual transmission as always, only with a box of solenoids on the shift lever input shaft. Computer controlled clutch as well.
Christian Wertti not quite. The cope style will make it handle better. It’s not only about the engine. The style, suspension, brakes, makes it different
@@inox1ck it's basically, like the Toyota team went to BMW for a "Build a Car Workshop" field trip. BMW was like: "these are our M-cars, this how they handle..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, these guys manufacture the BMW chassis'..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, this is ZF a German company we contract for transmissions, we have a long history with them, and they are developing an 8-speed automatic..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, now at the heart of a sports car is the engine, we use various engines, your old Supra had a turbo straight-6 right? Well, while you and most every other manufacturer gave up on the straight-6, we furthered the developement and now we have..." Toyota: "We want it!" So seriously... Who do you think designed it?
Unfortunately a lot of manufacturers specify that their transmission as "maintenance free", or "filled for life". I'd still suggest flushing and replacing the filter at regular intervals, but that's just me. IMO, maintenance free just means it'll pop sooner rather than later
I was a staunch manual driver until I drove my 370z with the 7at. In manual mode it feels like I'm driving a manual other than not having to shift gears with a lever and a clutch. The converted lockup is aggressive and it shifts super fast. Even rev matches on the downshift. Was very impressed. My last experience Wei th autos was 90s econoboxes and cvts.
@@santtu9169 $10/ltr for unkown compatibility to a $7k transmission...hmm I think I'd use what's recommended, if it fails and they tear it down and find you used the wrong fluid you get to buy a transmission.
Hmm, no. It meets every requirement need for ZF8Hp trans. You can actually buy the original ZF fluid for 13€/liter here in Europe and original filter including oil pan 105€.
@@santtu9169 Yes the filter is actually part of the pan...go ahead and use that knock of fluid but if the tranny fails know that warranty isn't going to cover the failure. Hope someone is using it and reports in 100k miles how its done, personally being on a budget I wouldn't skimp out and use a non-recommended fluid may be more expensive using the recommended fluid but when you are on a budget you certainly don't want a $7k+ transmission to fail on your dime.
That transmission is absolutely fantastic. We have 2 Ram 1500s with it and it is so smooth and quick, even when towing. I am curious as to what Jason thinks about Ford and GM's 10 speed, if it's better/worse/same. I like having those extra gears especially when towing, but if it's worse than the 8 speed then I don't want it because that 8 speed is seriously that good.
The 8HP70 is the best thing that happened to Ram trucks ever, or FCA as a whole. I really doubt they would have survived without it. Boosting their reliability is what they needed most and they have it now. Powertrains are solid. I drag race my 5,000lb pickup all the time and abuse the crap out of it on the street. I've got to say this is the first Dodge I've purposely tried to break the transmission and it just keeps on going. Guys say they're good for 700hp in pickup trucks which is incredibly robust for a stock transmission.
My friend has a Charger RT with the ZF 8 speed and it’s by far my favorite transmission. I love the gearing, the shift speed, and the smoothness. I’ve driven a few BMWs with the same trans as well and find them slightly better in the BMWs. But the Charger’s application is still amazing. Totally transformed the car. Another friend of mine has a Charger RT with the 5 speed and it feels like a dog compared to the 8.
Only have a ZF6 in my car, but it's still awesome, even with 500hp going through it it still shifts as smooth now at 175,000km as it did when I first got it.
I was sceptical when moving from my 335i DCT to the ZF8 but it is a treat! Unbelievable fast shifting and hard to believe that the ZF8 is not a dual clutch. It’s truly a superb transmission. No wonder so many other makers use it.
I work at the ZF plant in SC where we build that transmission and also build the 9HP. The BMW plant in SC that builds their SUVs just signed a massive contract with us to continue using ZF transmissions
That is good to hear K brizzle, when I was there at ZF Gray Court SC, the BMW Greenville /Duncan plant which is less than 20 miles from Gray Court SC that makes the same 8hp, would get their transmissions shipped all the way from ZF Germany to go into the US built BMW's That didn't make much sense to me.
Even this F-250 I'm driving uses rev matching when you manually downshift. It's amazing how it blurs the throttle automatically to match the RPM's to avoid the jerkiness you usually get on manually selected downshifts. It's the 6 speed. The newer F-150's are using a 10 speed now. Designed in a joint effort with GM.
Shawn Barnish that transmission wasn’t really that much of a joint development. GM was to make a 9-speed FWD based trans to share with Ford and Ford was tasked with making a 10-speed RWD based trans. GM loved the 10-speed and Ford didn’t find the 9-speed adequate in the reliability or power handling abilities.
I’m a used car dealer and the ZF 8HP is absolutely the best feeling automatic transmission I’ve driven. Going from my Ram to a GMC Denali or an F150 you can immediately feel the difference in the shifts. ZF got it right.
I love how it behaves in my Wrangler. Itll hold gears, burble, and pop when you let off. Its not a manual by any means but the way it shifts, hold gears, and just generally operates is really quite excellent. The only bad thing about it is it's absurd fluid change procedure.
Jason, I just got a 320d with the ZF Transmission. While I found the transmission to be pretty competent at first, it didn't really blow me away. Then I got my car coded up to enable the Sports Automatic Transmission (which bmw charges extra for) and boy did that change the characteristics of the whole car. The manual mode shifts are instantaneous as you describe, while the comfort mode shifts are smooth and barely perceptible, as they should be. Truly a masterpiece of a transmission!
Usually this shouldn't be the case. All the additional 200€ of the sports transmission add are the paddle shifters and a launch control, the rest is the same.
@@Explosivo93 Yes you are correct about launch control and the paddles but it does actually decrease shift times if you have the sport auto. But again you can just code it in with bimmercode like the guy who commented did
Agree with you, this transmission is good but not with a small engine. I actually prefered the 6 speed zf in the X1 23d than the 8 in the 320d. It just need some extra torque, at least when you want to dirve a little bit more sportily. For cruising it's okay even with a "smaller" engine like in a 118d.
And the best thing is, that the owner of ZF is a foundation which does a lot for the people in their region. So you can say, if you‘re buying a ZF 8HP, you‘re helping people with it.😁👌 Greetings from Germany!😊👋
One of my top reasons for choosing my last truck was the ZF transmission. In 2014 Ram's powertrain was head and shoulders above the competition. The only negative I have is the filter is built into the pan so if you want to change the fluid and filter you have to buy a new pan. I know they claim the fluid is "lifetime" but they also say "lifetime" is 100,000 miles so if you plan on putting 200,000 or 300,000 miles on a vehicle you will be buying several transmissions pans. Seems like the filter could have been made replaceable for very little cost. There are aftermarket pans with replaceable filters but they are very expensive.
MacTechG4 By allowing torque multiplication,at clutch lock up heat and inefficiency are gone. If it’s boring then it’s tuned wrong. They’re stronger than any manual trans that can fit in a car. Shifting manually is fun of course but they’re a comprise at best and a limitation once torque is upped. Having to use a 2.26 to 1 spread is boring and irritating in most situations.
I have C6 transmissions in my ‘71 Mustang and my daily driver ‘68 F100, both with big, high torque V8’s and they’re really bulletproof. My dad even has a story about driving a new Mustang in ‘68 with a C6 (after a cocktail or two, as was the custom of the day) and due to his SCCA racing experience in a ‘66 Shelby GT-350, attempted to downshift coming out of a corner and put the car into reverse going about 60mph. After coming to a stop with some loud grinding noises, he fired it back up in park and drove off with no issues. A later mechanic inspection didn’t find any any parts that needed to be replaced. Ford C6 is the best automatic transmission to live with
I'm super surprised that this video doesn't mention my favorite advantage of the ZF-8 over DCT: The ability to switch gears non-sequentially. My charger could drop from 6th to 2nd when I wanted to take off, DCTs usually cannot do that (maybe they can switch between say 5 and 2 but not 4 and 2 because that'd be the same clutch, but I dunno if anyone has implemented that)
Dual clutches do downshift an even number of gears, they are pretty fast. Having tried this ZF and the DSG I've noticed no difference in time response during a kick-down: they're both kind of slow and take almost one second to downshift. The DSG is truly instantaneous when downshifting one single gear though (it might be always pre-selected).
I'm pushing 62 and still enjoy manual gearboxes. I taught myself to rev-match double-clutch downshift and enjoy doing so. If my G37S sedan weren't an impulse purchase, it too would be a manual (didn't want to wait three months on a custom order). I just hate how I'm not in total control of the shifting process and that the trans control unit steps in to foil my fun at HPDE. I get one good session before the TCU starts interfering by making uncommanded up-shifts and ignoring down-shift commands. Now, this could be just poor engineering by the firm that made the 7-speed trans but it greatly colors how I feel about automatics in general. I'm going to die with a manual stick shift in my hand.
I own a 2019 Ram 1500 with Hemi eTorque and ZF 8HP75... 40K miles in and i still love this thing! Shifts like butter and never shake, rattle, sputter... They did an amazing job with this powertrain, hooking the Hemi up with the ZF 8HP! Best truck I've ever owned.
Sorry but I must say that you are not completely right. While ZF does make some great transmissions they also produce some real duds. Their 9 speed trannys currently used in a plethora of vehicles including Ram/Fiat/Stellantis/Chrysler/Honda etc has dog clutches that have caused and still continue to provide a very unsettling experience to many owners. Everyone is allowed a bad egg once in awhile, but the problem I have is ZF is still producing them in massive quantities and they are being sold to an unsuspecting/uneducated public.
That's because you don't have to write exams. If you were tested and graded on what you actually learned from EE, you'd realize you actually missed many naunces.
This type of auto was right right from the start which is why it is with us today and constantly being improved upon and what makes it really good is the torque convertor which cushions the connection between engine output shaft and transmission input shaft with a fluid for that smooth operation especially around the suburbs which is where most people do their driving. There is no physical/material connection unlike a DCT which shudders and jerks at low speeds as Jason so rightly pointed out and is mentioned in every car review that I have read that had a DCT. Some CVTs have a torque convertor to. What are the forces and heat and wear generated every time the dual clutches of a DCT snap bang in milliseconds when they engage time after time. No thanks, not for me. The fact that we have gone from 2 speed autos to 10 speed within the same size or smaller, lighter and more efficient really highlights its virtues. Long live the conventional auto!
ZF must be still proving them self, I know the zf6 and zf5 behind 7.3s are awesome transmissions with that granny low and duel syncro 2nd 3rd and 4th. Tough transmission.
Yep. Best transmission ever. Mine was (in a BMW) delaying shifts like it was on break every gear and it would slip when doing agressive kickdown actions. A full ZF kit later it is like I have a new car. Just unbelievable.
dual clutches have their own set of issues: low speed smoothness problems, more frequent maintenance with expensive fluid, higher weight, and cost. These fast torque converter transmissions are good enough 99.9% of the time where you dont need bleeding edge performance.
I think It wouldn't be that hard, if aftermarket PCM/TCM companies will support coverage of its shift logic control. Much like how many of them can control older electronic autos already, it just depends on if the aftermarket seizes on perceived demand from customers. And hey, if you snag the whole engine/trans package from the wreckers then you can just use the stock PCM (immobilizer delete notwithstanding, of course)!
That would be counterproductive. Replacing the best manual shifter on the planet for a unreliable, impossible to service and a lot more expensive one ...
My JL wrangler has the ZF 850RE, it is a more refined transmission than the 4 speed in the JK I used to own. Most of your performance is coming from that transmission as most car companies are going to small displacement engines paired to 8 and 10 speed transmissions. It's pretty amazing they can put a 2.0 turbo 4 cylinder in a 4000 pound jeep and make it accelerate to 60mph in 6.5 seconds thanks to that transmission.
@@bryanmartinez6600 Meh they aren't terrible if you have a tuner that knows the transmissions limitations. I'm making around 520whp through a bone stock 4l60 and it hasn't given me any issues yet. The 4l80 is a superior transmission in all categories though.
@@Z4G. I've made my peace with the inevitable demise of manuals. My current car is a manual, but pretty much every other I like and can think of buying is automatic. Having the 8HP makes the transition a lot easier
I just picked up an M235i. There's iterally NO MANUALS for sale near me, so had to pick up the auto box. I have no regrets. This ZF transmission is absolutely incredible.
I hated automatics but then drove an F type. Granted the exhaust note plays a huge part but the speed of shifts and that crack sound in the exhaust still puts a smile on my face when thinking about it
I'm sitting inside the X7 witch represents the yearly repair appointments you'll need to drive this thing. The X itself, is a variable not yet known in the equation.
Dual clutches try to simulate a torque converter by slipping the clutch and they do a pretty good nowadays, I've once driven a BMW assuming it was a regular auto, only to find out later it was a DCT. Likewise, I confused a Mini regular automatic for a DCT (because of the NIC: it disengages the clutch at a standstill only to re engage it when letting the brake go, the same way a DCT does).
@@demagab it is not just about the way it feels, no clutch can multiply torque when starting ... My honda has a torque converter and a clutch to be disengaged at a stand still...
Ever since the invention of the automatic transmission, manual shifting has mostly resulted in better transmissions with higher efficiency. Since the last 10-5 years, however, we're slowly moving towards transmissions that shift better and smarter than any human being ever could. I think this was inevitable.
Only if he can get any premium auto with Manual anymore. All are converting themselves to zf automatic as it provides better efficiency and fuel economy better than the manual. Due to strict emission regulations they are avoiding the manuals. I’ve been driving my bmws with zf from 2010 and it is an amazing box and never want to go back to manual or dct. BMW is well ahead in the game of rolling out this trans on all their models and also well ahead in the way the software is developed to marry engine to the power train compared to later entries of manufacturers such as Audi and Jaguars with sluggish or jerky low speed controls.
my first car was a manual transmission, my second vehicle was a manual, my third vehicle was an automatic... I have never had a manual transmission again. Manual transmissions are great in that they give you "control"... but if I wanted "control" Id climb under the hood and crank!!
I got one out of a jag, and made an adapter for the LS & SBC engines, and now I’m building an arduino based tcm. All of which will be going into my 89 Camaro. This really is the best transmission I’ve ever experienced.
I have a 2012 328i with the n20 bolted up to my ZF 8HP & I love it more than my ‘03 Jetta GLI (6 speed manual) & ALMOST more than my ‘91 3000gt VR-4 (5 speed manual) 😜 It’s an amazing piece of machinery, I must say. My passengers are always amazed at the performance of the ZF 8 speed and they always ask if it’s a dual clutch. I always tell them “it’s better”. 😂
Fabulous video. I totally agree with your assessment of this truly fabulous transmission. My wife is recently in a 2024 BMW X3 sDrive30i with the ZF 8HP and I am truly thrilled about how incredible this thing is. Had 2 DCT’s (a 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI [DSG] and a Porsche 911’with PDK and while they were fun with quick positive shifts I always feared a failure and it’s associated costs. When researching a new car I discovered this ZF and it’s great reviews. I am so happy with the ZF. It is just too cool that a torque converter transmission is this responsive and more than likely durable, plus cheaper to maintain and repair replace. I personally want to drive manuals forever, but I know those days are numbered. Either by my aging or lack of production.
Great video. I am no engineer and I read really great things about the new 10 speed automatic made by Ford used in trucks like the Ranger, F150 but also in sport cars. Would love to learn more about that too if you ever have a chance to look into it. Im also curious to know how strong they can kake these boxes, as in hoe much torque can they take before they explode
These videos on 'antique' technology are fascinating. A reminder of the 'olden days' when people had to put gas in their cars, change oil, flush radiators, etc. :-)
The Hellcat’s is different. The other Chargers, Challengers, and 300’s use the standard ZF 8 speed. The Pentastar 6’s get the HP45, the NA V8’s get the HP70, and the Hellcats get the HP90. Chrysler had to increase the strength of the transmission for the Hellcats.
Yes, but ultimately they were all originally based on the ZF 8s. The 'chrysler' designations standing for the amount of torque each variant is designed to handle, along with other inhouse touches made for their fleet.
After only recently moving to a job as a technician in a JLR dealer ship I can 100% confirm the 8hp is a nice auto box performance wise ! Even in 2.5 tonne discover 4’s they feel sporty to drive !
I just got my first automatic car, a BMW f11 530d with this transmission and i was a bit worried with having an automatic for reliability reasons. I have to say that this video (along with many others on this 8hp) give me alot of confidence and peace of mind😅
Just ask any owner of a ZF6HP26 box that despite having it serviced twice in 91,000 miles it can still blow its eclutch and render the box needing a rebuild at the cost = to the trade in value of the 5 Series BMW its fitted too!
my parents have 2 cars with ZF8 HP transmissions, a 2013 Audi Q5 and 2014 Ram 1500, neither car has had any transmission issues and both cars are now at around 90,000 miles
I guess no one is talking about that. And that should be probably most important thing. Aisin and Toyota for reliability Everyone else is about 10 years behind, thats why they are all going back to the basics...
Very cool, Actually probably the best auto ever built The TH400 Built for almost 30 years was in everything from Cadillac to Ferraris to RR to small dump trucks and H1 hummers in the gulf war. And versions are even still being made by race companies today. A dinosaur compared to this ZF but still legendary
my 2013 audi a4 has a ZF 8-speed and its like butter. it feels so close to a cvt that my coworkers cant feel the diference(and we work at a chevy dealership and drive cvt malibu's all the time). every car should have this Transmission.
Bro there is no service,you just if you want change oil on 120k miles and over...my had 174k km and no touch on it,beautifull thing to drive,fast smooth and reliable
I've changed oil in mine transsmision and have to say that the first 2 gears are working a lot smoother now than before the change. I've changed it at 90k miles and i'm happy with that 😁
Automatics are "cool" again, but all of these modern automatics have huge reliability problems. DCT is a disaster thanks to Getrag. If you think a new BMW automatic will be reliable, it would be the first. My next car is back to manual.
okleydokley The ZF 8HP is damn near bulletproof. The people that are having issues simply aren’t taking proper care of them. Anything will be unreliable if not taken care of properly.
@@EngineeringExplained We've been in this aura that only Toyota makes/uses high quality durable automatic transmissions. Doesn't help that BMW build quality for North American cars haven't been so hot lately either.
@@EngineeringExplained All the car makers are suffering reliability issues from next gen transmissions. Talk about Ford and the Getrag DCT fiasco, or VW, or Honda...
@@shawncarson8131 aside from fluid swaps at recommended intervals, there is no maintainance. Get serious, Ford/Getrag DCTs failed in under 5000 miles, and in 4 years, they could not get the design to work, but they sold them anyway. As for BMW...the reliability is bottom of CR, look it up. Ok to lease and dump in 36 months.
Nobody's still reading comments in here but Jeep Grand Cherokee had a real 6 speed automatic transmission in 1999 . Yes really. But one of the speeds is only accessible on downshift (3rd, or 2-prime as people call it because 2 and 3 are very close ratio) and the top (6th) was not enabled in software. So it behaved like a 4 speed with a special downshift gear from "3rd" to "2nd" (really 4th to 3rd). In late 2000 they started enabling the 6th gear on newly manufactured models and owners of 99/early 2000 models could get a software update at the dealership to enable 6th. That same transmission (RFE) was updated over the years and in around 2012 was finally given the option of manually choosing all six gears using the ERS option on Ram vehicles (and others, I assume) and I believe there are still some FCA/Stellantis trucks available with a version of this transmission (68RFE)
I can only tell you about my experience with them from a driver's point of view. the 9G-Tronic is BY FAR not as good as the 8HP. have driven the 9G-Tronic in an C43 AMG and the 8HP in an 440i with MPPSK. the bmw mopped the floor with the mercedes regarding engine and gearbox
I own a BMW 120i with ZF and I regularly drive a Mercedes GLS 400 with the 9G and the only difference I really notice is the fact that the 9G is jerky until the 3rd gear and the ZF is only jerky in first gear. For regular driving they are on par.
GumpPower I can‘t agree more with you. I‘ve had a few loaner cars with the 9G-Tronic and it is literally MILES behind the 8HP which I got to drive in a 530d G30.
I’ve owned a Mercedes with a DCT and a BMW with a ZF and there is no denying that the ZF is superior. Performance is similar but when you just want to drive smoothly in slow traffic the ZF is smooth and creamy like butter and the Mercedes DCT feel like a manual car that can’t figure out when to release the clutch. The ZF is the only reason I’m currently in an automatic after a decade of manual vehicle. Love the ZF.
4th BMW here with the ZF 8HP, all taxies and never a problem. I would say these transmissions are reliable when serviced properly. We never serviced ours and they never miss a beat.
I hope i wasn't the only one waiting for him to reach out and pull out a handy gearbox he just happened to have
3D prints!
No sir you are not 😂😂😂
Or a whiteboard.
I worked at ZF assembling these 8 speed transmissions. Btw, ZF stands for Zahnradfabrik wich literally means Gear Factory.
Then you likely know he missed the reason why the converter has such a high torque capacity in the Lock mode. The big change, around 2007, was changing from a light duty TC-lock for light torque in top gear(s) only, to a heavy duty, dual disc clutch that locks up in every gear. Also, he said lock-up was only in gears 1 and 6, not true. In the video he was shifting in many gears that were locked, for 1:1 direct drive. I first discovered this new generation automatic in a 2008 Mercedes C300 4Matic 7 speed.
KevinK2 I'm going on a limb here. He didn't say it locked up only in 1st and 6th, he said it was straight through. Now, I'm not sure about 1st, but 6th could easily be a 1:1 input to output ratio, with 7th and 8th as overdrive gears, and the rest as so called under drive gears. I'm still trying to work out exactly what he meant, but my guess is that the input is only driving the sun gears of each epicyclic element, in series, to give the lowest possible ratio, whereas 6th would have the ring gears locked, and the such that the whole epicyclic assembly rotates at engine speed. (A little over ten years ago I used to service these types of gear system almost daily, these days fibromyalgia means I only drive vehicles with them, rather than service and repair them. That said, the 6HP in my Phaeton needs serviced. It slips badly in the upper 3 gears.)
I'll happily take correction on the power transfer path if I've got it back to front. 😄
@@taylorsimonr Thanks for the comment. At 7:18 he said "for 1st gear and 6th gear ... it's a locked-up direct drive" But now I realize the point he made was likely the other gears have gear mesh(s) with high efficiency (98+), but in those 2 gears, there is no gear mesh. This is what you explained very well. My main point was he didn't mention what was responsible for the huge change in atx performance, the muti disc heavy duty TC clutch, for nearly full torque lock-up, by-passing the fluid coupling. Sorry to hear the Fibro, it's RSD that have my tools collecting dust.
I rebuilt an old manual box on a Triumph, with the cluster gear on caged needles riding on the dead shaft. Gear bore was spalled so I sketched up over-boring and fitting in a drawn-cup needle brg for smooth rollin again. Friends with machinist helps.
Human Person You missed the „F“ which stands for Friedrichshafen, the location of the headquarters. Cheers
Actually it is: Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen
Got this trans in my M340i. It's a killer gearbox. Always in the right gear, and if it isn't, it can get to it fast. It's smooth and seamless when driving normally and fast and ferocious when driving hard. Love it!
Thank you for the recognition 😊
I'm one of the developers for this badass gearbox
God bless you!!
Now develop a better manual box!
The video is great, and shows all the detailed changes, but is there One design change that stands out for the huge efficiency increase?
@Lako well, everyone knows how fast dodge's spaghetti transmissions
Too bad the electrical parts were junk
We want a "whiteboard" video explaining every detail of the ZF immediately!!!
The best transmission for me is the one that never breaks until I'm at 400,000 miles
That’s a big number, how many miles a year do you do?
Damn, what are you driving, a Land Cruiser?
If only that’s possible in today’s world.
Change your trans oil and filter once every two years.
Lol 150k on my bmw and i havent touch my ZF since i bought it will make easy 250k without touching the gearbox
"The supra's a Z4"
That troll LOL
Lool😂😂😂
Was going to comment this as well, one of the funny things about Jason, he always finds a way to slide in the common/ current masses drama ahah
It was a straight up fact. A supra badge slapped on the back does not a supra make
@@762x69 Someone made a really good video about why this isn't exactly the case but I definitely thought that too at first.
@@wdiv link please if you can? Otherwise I'm sticking with thought of it as the z4 two seat coupe 👌
Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen (ZF) which means gearing/gearwheel factory and Friedrichshafen is in southern Germany at the Swiss border. It exists since 1915. I worked on the Saarbrücken factory at the French border building 8HP gearboxes.
Greetings and great show.
Irgendwie bin ich immer überrascht wenn Amerikaner von irgendetwas reden das bei mir aus der Gegend kommt... :D
You build some masterpieces!
war da auch schon n paar mal, ist echt ein gewaltiges Firmengelände
Tyler Beeson
Too much praise...
The engineers made a good design, also there is very strict quality control and I had a good time and a motivated team of workers and technicians around me. I’m guessing the 8HP will live on for a moment in hybridized form (electric motor at the output shaft).
I spent 3 years in the military at Zweibrucken not far from Saarbrucken.
I had the ZF 8HP in a M135i (old one) - my favourite gearbox. No clutches to worry about. You get the best of both - pure automatic as well as fast gear changes and great fuel economy due to a quick torque converter lock up. The downside I found is that sometimes at low speeds like in traffic the gearbox changing gears would cause a surge, but wasnt really any bother to me. Aston Martin also use these gearboxes.
Hi Jason, just to confirm, the new Continental GT doesn’t use the ZF 8HP. The new one uses the Porsche PDK box. The previous generation GT and the Bentayga use/d the 8HP though.
Source: I might work for Bentley.
Whoops!!! Looks like I used the wrong photo. I wasn't positive about the current gen but knew the previous ones did, so when looking for press photos I just went with current. Good catch, and thanks for pointing this out!
Engineering Explained yeah, on Wikipedia it shows the GT as using the 8HP, but the link hasn’t been changed to what was the current gen at the time to what is now the old gen.
Would be great to see you trying out a Bentley sometime soon and giving your impressions. Not how it would tie in with your channel apart from being essentially two VR6 engines sharing a crank. Sure you can think of something!
Both are developed and built by ZF though ;-)
I'm possibly an employee of a car company from Bavaria starting with "A".
You sure that DSG isn't from us?
i have an A b10 v8 and your switchtronic gearbox is still going strong at 190,000 miles :) i think this was also made buy zf and modified buy the company in bavaria starting with A :)
I love ZF.
Not least because they are owned by a non-profit charitable trust and the profits ZF makes go to meals-on-wheels, kindergartens, OAP homes, hospitals etc.
can confirm, never thought I'd be proud to work for a multi billion dollar company
Gustav Meyrink Thay became big due to the competitive advantage of tax free charity status enabled them crush the opposition. Sanitarium here in Oz has dodgy tax free 'church' status here in Oz, and thier main competitior, 'Kellogs' isnt happy about thier competitiors artificial competitive advantage.
@@nordic5490 As the scientologists found out churches are not tax exempt in Germany, only non-profit organizations are.
Why would they want to crush the competition when they will never make a profit for anyone?
In the case of ZF it is the elected city council of Friedrichshafen who decides where the money goes. There is no individual or group of individuals who gain anything in terms of money, power or prestige when those companies do well. Also German CEOs earn considerably less than their anglo-saxon counterparts, probably because every company above a certain size must have a union rep as a permanent board member so everybody knows what everybody earns.
Result: No runaway remuneration of board members, better wages and conditions for employees.
You should read up on why ZF came to be owned by a charitable trust.
@@nordic5490 I think you're mixing something up here. ZF is a stock company just like most other big companies in the world. The difference is that all their stocks are in the hands of two charities. Those two charities want their share of the pie every year as well, just like in other companies.
You're right though that this share is actually a lot smaller than four other companies
So ZF being separate from automakers, I think they have the ability to build stuff that actually will last? I assume there have been some issues with these ZF8's but probably nothing compared to some other models?
Seriously, that ZF 8 speed is amazing, I wish I could justifiably afford a car that has one.
BMW 116i F20 from 2011 for instance ;)
@@wernertrugler1171 true, too small though :) 3 series or higher for me
BMW M240i xdrive with a tuning module is a beast and only cost me $45,000 new
Buy a used Jeep Cherokee with a *9 SPEED* ZF gearbox!
Calvin Nickel not exactly known to be a stellar trans like the 8hp
Great video as always, Jason. It is astonishing that this transmission is nearly a decade old but there's still nothing in the market that quite manages to offer its impressive blend of attributes. I come from Malaysia, a market where automatics suffer very high failure rates due to various factors, but I have yet to hear any complaints of the ZF 8HP's durability and reliable. Such a well-engineered piece of hardware.
Hey Kon, when are you gonna review the new S60 T5?
It's an awesome piece of engineering! And yes, 10 years old at this point, though it's on the third generation (which came out in 2018).
@@papoopa5800 gotta wait for the car to reach our market first. Haha
@@EngineeringExplained I have even tried the 8HP on an Iveco van, an experience that opened my eyes to how impressively versatile this transmission is.
...Lexus did it first.
The ZF-5HP24 in my '03 BMW X5 (4.4L V8) is still going strong with over 220k miles on it. This X5 has even been used to tow a 5k lb trailer between FL and TX (over a dozen times).
Fluid and filter got changed at 100k and 180k. Will be doing another change at 240k.
Is it still smooth?
The q7 v12tdi had the zf6speed, that was a good tranny, but it was holding the engine back because it had too much torque
Cool video. I've been working around projects for this transmission almost my entire career as a mechanical engineer. But whenever I visit the plant where they built them I'm still impressed every time how everything comes together.
As a manual fanboy, I have to say that the ZF 8 speed is an amazing transmission.
Hey Jason, great video! The Jesko's new transmission seems really cool and definitely deserves an oldschool whiteboard video I think.
Totally agree with you !!!
It pretty much blows everything else out of the water, including this ZF.
I can't believe how far automatic transmissions have come in my lifetime and this century especially. I had an 83 Ford F-150 with a 3 speed automatic... maybe it had a 4th gear or overdrive but I think it was only 3 speed. And just a few years ago I was looking at the Ford website and looking at all the options available for the trucks and I was interested in going back to driving a manual transmission but I noticed that they no longer had a manual transmission option. They had 7 or 8 speed automatics. And I was shocked that auto had become the only choice. And I happened to run into my cousin who I hardly ever see because he drives over the road semi truck and we got to talking about it and he told me that the new semi he drives actually has an automatic transmission. I was absolutely floored because that was unheard of before. And I asked him how well it works and he said he was skeptical at first but it works just fine. Having been in semis before on trips with my cousins I can tell you that being in control of the gear you're in is a big part of handling the extreme weight and size of a semi, especially on grades/hills. So to hear him say that the automatic is great is just a testament to how good the technology has gotten.
Try an automatic on the column .....Powerglide, 1955 Chev
Is it a conventional automatic as in this video with torque convertor and planetary gears or an automated manual transmission (AMT) the AMT is automatic but
has solenoids to shift for you and being made similar to a manual are able to handle higher torque loadings than a "conventional" auto. Even dual clutch transmissions shift automatically as do CVTs so in todays environment, when speaking of autos, you need to clarify which one.
Ford C4 or Ford C6? both of them are awesome reliable old school ones
It's an "auto shifting" transmission. Same manual transmission as always, only with a box of solenoids on the shift lever input shaft. Computer controlled clutch as well.
3:49 "The Supra's a Z4"
Takes are served smoldering hot over here
Christian Wertti not quite. The cope style will make it handle better. It’s not only about the engine. The style, suspension, brakes, makes it different
@@inox1ck it's basically, like the Toyota team went to BMW for a "Build a Car Workshop" field trip. BMW was like: "these are our M-cars, this how they handle..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, these guys manufacture the BMW chassis'..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, this is ZF a German company we contract for transmissions, we have a long history with them, and they are developing an 8-speed automatic..." Toyota: "We want that!" BMW: "Okay, now at the heart of a sports car is the engine, we use various engines, your old Supra had a turbo straight-6 right? Well, while you and most every other manufacturer gave up on the straight-6, we furthered the developement and now we have..." Toyota: "We want it!" So seriously... Who do you think designed it?
New Supra is gonna be a BMW, inside and out. TOO SAD.
Let me guess. BMW states no trans fluid change is necessary for the entire service life. Haha
Ozzstar yh, but if you go to ZF, they’ll change it for you.
It should be a joke
Do my own fluid changes. 3 BMW'S lol
Welllll my 2001 BMW with a ZF transmission has 175,000+ miles on it with zero fluid changes... so....... yeah, I'd say that works out okay
Unfortunately a lot of manufacturers specify that their transmission as "maintenance free", or "filled for life". I'd still suggest flushing and replacing the filter at regular intervals, but that's just me. IMO, maintenance free just means it'll pop sooner rather than later
I was a staunch manual driver until I drove my 370z with the 7at. In manual mode it feels like I'm driving a manual other than not having to shift gears with a lever and a clutch. The converted lockup is aggressive and it shifts super fast. Even rev matches on the downshift.
Was very impressed. My last experience Wei th autos was 90s econoboxes and cvts.
EE: "automatic transmissions are cool again"
*value of all automatic transmissions triples overnight*
*BREAKING NEWS: Manual transmission car sales drop to 0%*
@@bibasik7 Then he reviews the Mclaren F1 and T50 gearbox and then manual transmissions are the coolest things on earth.
I have a 2010 bmw 535i with ZF8HP trans and it still feels great. Just remember to change your trans fluid every 60k miles/100k km.
I was watching a video yesterday about this transmission and the fluid. The guy says the special fluid is like $43 a quart...ouch!!!!!!
Sure, if you buy from dealer... There is allso fluids that cost 10€/ltr.
@@santtu9169 $10/ltr for unkown compatibility to a $7k transmission...hmm I think I'd use what's recommended, if it fails and they tear it down and find you used the wrong fluid you get to buy a transmission.
Hmm, no. It meets every requirement need for ZF8Hp trans. You can actually buy the original ZF fluid for 13€/liter here in Europe and original filter including oil pan 105€.
@@santtu9169 Yes the filter is actually part of the pan...go ahead and use that knock of fluid but if the tranny fails know that warranty isn't going to cover the failure. Hope someone is using it and reports in 100k miles how its done, personally being on a budget I wouldn't skimp out and use a non-recommended fluid may be more expensive using the recommended fluid but when you are on a budget you certainly don't want a $7k+ transmission to fail on your dime.
I've always been impressed by the genius of the people who design these.
That transmission is absolutely fantastic. We have 2 Ram 1500s with it and it is so smooth and quick, even when towing. I am curious as to what Jason thinks about Ford and GM's 10 speed, if it's better/worse/same. I like having those extra gears especially when towing, but if it's worse than the 8 speed then I don't want it because that 8 speed is seriously that good.
ZF 8HP is one reason I bought a new BMW 3 years ago, really good transmission.
That is the reason I won't be buying a new BMW.. they aren't offering good manuals anymore.
Ted Schoenling interesting, what did you buy instead?
I love the 8-speed ZF transmission in my Chrysler 300 and will be getting the transmission oil changed soon, to help keep it healthy! 😊
The 8HP70 is the best thing that happened to Ram trucks ever, or FCA as a whole. I really doubt they would have survived without it. Boosting their reliability is what they needed most and they have it now. Powertrains are solid.
I drag race my 5,000lb pickup all the time and abuse the crap out of it on the street. I've got to say this is the first Dodge I've purposely tried to break the transmission and it just keeps on going.
Guys say they're good for 700hp in pickup trucks which is incredibly robust for a stock transmission.
My friend has a Charger RT with the ZF 8 speed and it’s by far my favorite transmission. I love the gearing, the shift speed, and the smoothness. I’ve driven a few BMWs with the same trans as well and find them slightly better in the BMWs. But the Charger’s application is still amazing. Totally transformed the car. Another friend of mine has a Charger RT with the 5 speed and it feels like a dog compared to the 8.
false, transmissions are rated on torque, so the “70” indicates 700nm of torque
@@m.h.3679 big facts
And 700nm at 7200rpm is 700hp 🤷♂️🤷♂️ dingus
Only have a ZF6 in my car, but it's still awesome, even with 500hp going through it it still shifts as smooth now at 175,000km as it did when I first got it.
I was sceptical when moving from my 335i DCT to the ZF8 but it is a treat! Unbelievable fast shifting and hard to believe that the ZF8 is not a dual clutch. It’s truly a superb transmission. No wonder so many other makers use it.
I work at the ZF plant in SC where we build that transmission and also build the 9HP. The BMW plant in SC that builds their SUVs just signed a massive contract with us to continue using ZF transmissions
That is good to hear K brizzle, when I was there at ZF Gray Court SC, the BMW Greenville /Duncan plant which is less than 20 miles from Gray Court SC that makes the same 8hp, would get their transmissions shipped all the way from ZF Germany to go into the US built BMW's
That didn't make much sense to me.
I hate bmw and zf transmissions. Audi all the way and dct.
@@leonardoarispe4689 disaster dsg and s tronic... Zf is lighting years ahead
@@leonardoarispe4689wouldnt recommend looking at what audis been using as an auto then
Even this F-250 I'm driving uses rev matching when you manually downshift. It's amazing how it blurs the throttle automatically to match the RPM's to avoid the jerkiness you usually get on manually selected downshifts.
It's the 6 speed.
The newer F-150's are using a 10 speed now. Designed in a joint effort with GM.
Shawn Barnish that transmission wasn’t really that much of a joint development. GM was to make a 9-speed FWD based trans to share with Ford and Ford was tasked with making a 10-speed RWD based trans. GM loved the 10-speed and Ford didn’t find the 9-speed adequate in the reliability or power handling abilities.
I’m a used car dealer and the ZF 8HP is absolutely the best feeling automatic transmission I’ve driven. Going from my Ram to a GMC Denali or an F150 you can immediately feel the difference in the shifts. ZF got it right.
I completely agree with you, I’m also a dealer and the box in the ram is a huge advantage in my eyes.
I love how it behaves in my Wrangler. Itll hold gears, burble, and pop when you let off. Its not a manual by any means but the way it shifts, hold gears, and just generally operates is really quite excellent. The only bad thing about it is it's absurd fluid change procedure.
Jason, I just got a 320d with the ZF Transmission. While I found the transmission to be pretty competent at first, it didn't really blow me away. Then I got my car coded up to enable the Sports Automatic Transmission (which bmw charges extra for) and boy did that change the characteristics of the whole car. The manual mode shifts are instantaneous as you describe, while the comfort mode shifts are smooth and barely perceptible, as they should be. Truly a masterpiece of a transmission!
Usually this shouldn't be the case. All the additional 200€ of the sports transmission add are the paddle shifters and a launch control, the rest is the same.
The sport automatic transmission option is pretty amazing!
@@Explosivo93 Yes you are correct about launch control and the paddles but it does actually decrease shift times if you have the sport auto. But again you can just code it in with bimmercode like the guy who commented did
@@Explosivo93 BMW themselves might have a different program for the transmission to "encourage" people to pay for the sport transmission package
Agree with you, this transmission is good but not with a small engine. I actually prefered the 6 speed zf in the X1 23d than the 8 in the 320d. It just need some extra torque, at least when you want to dirve a little bit more sportily. For cruising it's okay even with a "smaller" engine like in a 118d.
And the best thing is, that the owner of ZF is a foundation which does a lot for the people in their region. So you can say, if you‘re buying a ZF 8HP, you‘re helping people with it.😁👌
Greetings from Germany!😊👋
That’s nice to know, 👍. Great gearbox though, I have it in my 2018 530d xdrive, better that double clutch boxes. ☘️🇮🇪.
One of my top reasons for choosing my last truck was the ZF transmission. In 2014 Ram's powertrain was head and shoulders above the competition. The only negative I have is the filter is built into the pan so if you want to change the fluid and filter you have to buy a new pan. I know they claim the fluid is "lifetime" but they also say "lifetime" is 100,000 miles so if you plan on putting 200,000 or 300,000 miles on a vehicle you will be buying several transmissions pans. Seems like the filter could have been made replaceable for very little cost. There are aftermarket pans with replaceable filters but they are very expensive.
As far as I'm concerned torque converters are the most amazing mechanical devices in existence.
Invented by GM
Naw, superchargers yo!
And bloody boring, inefficient and power wasting
MacTechG4 By allowing torque multiplication,at clutch lock up heat and inefficiency are gone. If it’s boring then it’s tuned wrong. They’re stronger than any manual trans that can fit in a car. Shifting manually is fun of course but they’re a comprise at best and a limitation once torque is upped. Having to use a 2.26 to 1 spread is boring and irritating in most situations.
@@MrGreenelight - The torque converter is a German invention, the automatic a Canadian, but sold to GM.
I have C6 transmissions in my ‘71 Mustang and my daily driver ‘68 F100, both with big, high torque V8’s and they’re really bulletproof.
My dad even has a story about driving a new Mustang in ‘68 with a C6 (after a cocktail or two, as was the custom of the day) and due to his SCCA racing experience in a ‘66 Shelby GT-350, attempted to downshift coming out of a corner and put the car into reverse going about 60mph. After coming to a stop with some loud grinding noises, he fired it back up in park and drove off with no issues. A later mechanic inspection didn’t find any any parts that needed to be replaced.
Ford C6 is the best automatic transmission to live with
everyone knows auto trans run on black magic. disappointed that you completely failed to mention this anywhere
I did a transgo pressure regulator in my 5hp19 and it shifts so smoothly.
Gotta have proper control over the black magic.
I'm super surprised that this video doesn't mention my favorite advantage of the ZF-8 over DCT: The ability to switch gears non-sequentially. My charger could drop from 6th to 2nd when I wanted to take off, DCTs usually cannot do that (maybe they can switch between say 5 and 2 but not 4 and 2 because that'd be the same clutch, but I dunno if anyone has implemented that)
Look up Koenigsegg Jesko!
Dual clutches do downshift an even number of gears, they are pretty fast. Having tried this ZF and the DSG I've noticed no difference in time response during a kick-down: they're both kind of slow and take almost one second to downshift. The DSG is truly instantaneous when downshifting one single gear though (it might be always pre-selected).
5 years later and still the 🐐 of transmissions
I drove a Dodge Challenger with this transmission and I was amazed, I couldn't believe how awesome this transmission is
I'm pushing 62 and still enjoy manual gearboxes. I taught myself to rev-match double-clutch downshift and enjoy doing so. If my G37S sedan weren't an impulse purchase, it too would be a manual (didn't want to wait three months on a custom order). I just hate how I'm not in total control of the shifting process and that the trans control unit steps in to foil my fun at HPDE. I get one good session before the TCU starts interfering by making uncommanded up-shifts and ignoring down-shift commands. Now, this could be just poor engineering by the firm that made the 7-speed trans but it greatly colors how I feel about automatics in general. I'm going to die with a manual stick shift in my hand.
I own a 2019 Ram 1500 with Hemi eTorque and ZF 8HP75... 40K miles in and i still love this thing! Shifts like butter and never shake, rattle, sputter... They did an amazing job with this powertrain, hooking the Hemi up with the ZF 8HP! Best truck I've ever owned.
ZF gearboxes have always been brilliant.
Sorry but I must say that you are not completely right. While ZF does make some great transmissions they also produce some real duds. Their 9 speed trannys currently used in a plethora of vehicles including Ram/Fiat/Stellantis/Chrysler/Honda etc has dog clutches that have caused and still continue to provide a very unsettling experience to many owners. Everyone is allowed a bad egg once in awhile, but the problem I have is ZF is still producing them in massive quantities and they are being sold to an unsuspecting/uneducated public.
I like how i can understand his white board sessions but not my engineering professor's
That's because you don't have to write exams. If you were tested and graded on what you actually learned from EE, you'd realize you actually missed many naunces.
This type of auto was right right from the start which is why it is with us today and constantly being improved upon and what makes it really good
is the torque convertor which cushions the connection between engine output shaft and transmission input shaft with a fluid for that smooth operation
especially around the suburbs which is where most people do their driving. There is no physical/material connection unlike a DCT which shudders and jerks
at low speeds as Jason so rightly pointed out and is mentioned in every car review that I have read that had a DCT. Some CVTs have a torque convertor to.
What are the forces and heat and wear generated every time the dual clutches of a DCT snap bang in milliseconds when they engage time after time. No thanks,
not for me. The fact that we have gone from 2 speed autos to 10 speed within the same size or smaller, lighter and more efficient really highlights its virtues.
Long live the conventional auto!
ZF must be still proving them self, I know the zf6 and zf5 behind 7.3s are awesome transmissions with that granny low and duel syncro 2nd 3rd and 4th. Tough transmission.
You are the only one I know who can make a box full of gears sound like a gourmet dining experience.
In this case it is.
Yep. Best transmission ever. Mine was (in a BMW) delaying shifts like it was on break every gear and it would slip when doing agressive kickdown actions. A full ZF kit later it is like I have a new car. Just unbelievable.
dual clutches have their own set of issues: low speed smoothness problems, more frequent maintenance with expensive fluid, higher weight, and cost. These fast torque converter transmissions are good enough 99.9% of the time where you dont need bleeding edge performance.
Koeingsegg says they are good for bleeding edge performance also, with only one gear.
Now explain how you can buy one and integrate it in your project car :D
I think It wouldn't be that hard, if aftermarket PCM/TCM companies will support coverage of its shift logic control. Much like how many of them can control older electronic autos already, it just depends on if the aftermarket seizes on perceived demand from customers. And hey, if you snag the whole engine/trans package from the wreckers then you can just use the stock PCM (immobilizer delete notwithstanding, of course)!
That would be counterproductive. Replacing the best manual shifter on the planet for a unreliable, impossible to service and a lot more expensive one ...
if you havent seen it yet look into htg tuning or turbolamik, theres also plenty of adapter plates out there for them
My JL wrangler has the ZF 850RE, it is a more refined transmission than the 4 speed in the JK I used to own. Most of your performance is coming from that transmission as most car companies are going to small displacement engines paired to 8 and 10 speed transmissions. It's pretty amazing they can put a 2.0 turbo 4 cylinder in a 4000 pound jeep and make it accelerate to 60mph in 6.5 seconds thanks to that transmission.
How's reliability? I feel reliability is important to be the very best.
Change oil and filter ~3y/ 90.000km and you'll be fine.
Don't change transmission oil and you're f...ed.
cousin got bmw f11 with zf and oil was never changed. Car is at 250km and runs great
The quicker they shift, the less they slip, the longer they last.. at least that what a transmission shop once told me.
@@TheOlsonOutfit that's exactly how it works. Less heat gets put in the fluid and then everything last longer.
I have a ZF 6HP28X in my 2007 BMW X5 3.0d with 230,000km on it. Still going strong and hasn't missed a beat!
**TH400 enters the chat**
**Powerglide enters the chat**
James Fox
“Trans guy” has a whole lot of connotations nowadays. Lol
@@stlchucko No doubt! You got me on that one.
@ I absolutely hated it's newer version the 4L60 that thing was awful. Well maybe okay for an SUV or light pick up but was weak for a half ton.
@@bryanmartinez6600 Meh they aren't terrible if you have a tuner that knows the transmissions limitations. I'm making around 520whp through a bone stock 4l60 and it hasn't given me any issues yet. The 4l80 is a superior transmission in all categories though.
@ I hope all those 4L60 upgrades were in place by the time they built my 2011 Silverado... I have 92k miles and no issues so far, not even hiccup.
I can't praise the ZF 8HP enough. And I'm a manual guy.
Rip the manuals, sad times we're living in haha.
@@Z4G. I've made my peace with the inevitable demise of manuals. My current car is a manual, but pretty much every other I like and can think of buying is automatic. Having the 8HP makes the transition a lot easier
I totally agree, on the same boat
I just picked up an M235i. There's iterally NO MANUALS for sale near me, so had to pick up the auto box. I have no regrets. This ZF transmission is absolutely incredible.
Got a 2011 x5 35i m sport (n55 engine) and i beat on the zf8 whenever i drive it, and oh my lord i take it for granted. Respect to the engineers
1:07 "Infinate speeds with CVT's" *Little Einstiens theme song starts playing*
Infinite *
Yes, I work where we build it, and we cannot make enough of them !!
salaries must be huge with all that extra work.
I hated automatics but then drove an F type. Granted the exhaust note plays a huge part but the speed of shifts and that crack sound in the exhaust still puts a smile on my face when thinking about it
Great video and explanation of how this ZF works. The ZF 8 speed in my Challenger is amazing..best auto ever!
I'm afraid it doesn't come close to the Fred Flintstone transmission.
I'm sitting inside the X7 witch represents the yearly repair appointments you'll need to drive this thing.
The X itself, is a variable not yet known in the equation.
I love how torque converter delivers power and the way it "engages" from stand
Dual clutches try to simulate a torque converter by slipping the clutch and they do a pretty good nowadays, I've once driven a BMW assuming it was a regular auto, only to find out later it was a DCT. Likewise, I confused a Mini regular automatic for a DCT (because of the NIC: it disengages the clutch at a standstill only to re engage it when letting the brake go, the same way a DCT does).
@@demagab it is not just about the way it feels, no clutch can multiply torque when starting ...
My honda has a torque converter and a clutch to be disengaged at a stand still...
LOL, after all that dissertation praising the ZF 8-speed automatic - "I'd rather have a manual transmission..."
Ever since the invention of the automatic transmission, manual shifting has mostly resulted in better transmissions with higher efficiency. Since the last 10-5 years, however, we're slowly moving towards transmissions that shift better and smarter than any human being ever could. I think this was inevitable.
@@francoisleveille409 More efficient? Maybe, but much less fun.
@@alexgorski5031 Not to me! I'd love to drive a McLaren F1 one day but I can't drive manual!
Only if he can get any premium auto with Manual anymore. All are converting themselves to zf automatic as it provides better efficiency and fuel economy better than the manual. Due to strict emission regulations they are avoiding the manuals. I’ve been driving my bmws with zf from 2010 and it is an amazing box and never want to go back to manual or dct. BMW is well ahead in the game of rolling out this trans on all their models and also well ahead in the way the software is developed to marry engine to the power train compared to later entries of manufacturers such as Audi and Jaguars with sluggish or jerky low speed controls.
True indeed tested out some autos and ended up getting a manual GTI as my daily driver.
my first car was a manual transmission, my second vehicle was a manual, my third vehicle was an automatic... I have never had a manual transmission again. Manual transmissions are great in that they give you "control"... but if I wanted "control" Id climb under the hood and crank!!
I’ve driven cars with that 8 speed. He’s absolutely right about the performance. It’s an amazing DCT, wait I meant automatic transmission.
And for all those reasons it is perfect in my hard working vw Amarok.
ZF 8 speed, I agree. I have a ZF 6 speed at 200,000km, never an issue and still smooth.
“The Supra’s a Z4” Plz tell me im correct that he said that 😂😂
I got one out of a jag, and made an adapter for the LS & SBC engines, and now I’m building an arduino based tcm. All of which will be going into my 89 Camaro. This really is the best transmission I’ve ever experienced.
Time to upgrade your Tesla with one!
@@bubajack7461 it's a joke.
@@bubajack7461 woooof
*@Buba Jack has left the chat*
@@m.h.3679 lmao what did he say
@@greynolds17That's what I'd like to know as well
Im a chrysler tech and these transmissions are bullet proof. Never have any issues with these
Autos never stopped being cool with the drag racers ;-)
Numinous for smooth take offs. Traction mate.
@@nordic5490 Yep, that and not nearly as much time not lost shifting.
The BESTseller of transmissions not only for driving and build quality.
I have a 2012 328i with the n20 bolted up to my ZF 8HP & I love it more than my ‘03 Jetta GLI (6 speed manual) & ALMOST more than my ‘91 3000gt VR-4 (5 speed manual) 😜
It’s an amazing piece of machinery, I must say. My passengers are always amazed at the performance of the ZF 8 speed and they always ask if it’s a dual clutch. I always tell them “it’s better”. 😂
ZF stands for Zanhnrad(Gearwheel)-Fabrik Friedrichshafen
Wow, the ZF 8HP got 1 million view 👍
I wish Ford and GM use this transmission.
Regards.
it's too expensive for a ford. they put it only in luxury vehicles.
@@korencek also GM and Ford don't care about quality.
Fabulous video. I totally agree with your assessment of this truly fabulous transmission. My wife is recently in a 2024 BMW X3 sDrive30i with the ZF 8HP and I am truly thrilled about how incredible this thing is. Had 2 DCT’s (a 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI [DSG] and a Porsche 911’with PDK and while they were fun with quick positive shifts I always feared a failure and it’s associated costs. When researching a new car I discovered this ZF and it’s great reviews. I am so happy with the ZF. It is just too cool that a torque converter transmission is this responsive and more than likely durable, plus cheaper to maintain and repair replace. I personally want to drive manuals forever, but I know those days are numbered. Either by my aging or lack of production.
Great video. I am no engineer and I read really great things about the new 10 speed automatic made by Ford used in trucks like the Ranger, F150 but also in sport cars. Would love to learn more about that too if you ever have a chance to look into it. Im also curious to know how strong they can kake these boxes, as in hoe much torque can they take before they explode
Nothing beats the ZF Ecomat bus automatic's ultra quick upshifts though
Except dcts
These videos on 'antique' technology are fascinating. A reminder of the 'olden days' when people had to put gas in their cars, change oil, flush radiators, etc. :-)
The Hellcat’s is different. The other Chargers, Challengers, and 300’s use the standard ZF 8 speed. The Pentastar 6’s get the HP45, the NA V8’s get the HP70, and the Hellcats get the HP90.
Chrysler had to increase the strength of the transmission for the Hellcats.
Yes, but ultimately they were all originally based on the ZF 8s. The 'chrysler' designations standing for the amount of torque each variant is designed to handle, along with other inhouse touches made for their fleet.
After only recently moving to a job as a technician in a JLR dealer ship I can 100% confirm the 8hp is a nice auto box performance wise ! Even in 2.5 tonne discover 4’s they feel sporty to drive !
Please do another video on torque converters. I know you did one a few years ago but would be great to see a remake.
I just got my first automatic car, a BMW f11 530d with this transmission and i was a bit worried with having an automatic for reliability reasons. I have to say that this video (along with many others on this 8hp) give me alot of confidence and peace of mind😅
How about reliability and repair cost in the long term?
Reliability is "great"
Repair cost is "sell your testicles"
Just ask any owner of a ZF6HP26 box that despite having it serviced twice in 91,000 miles it can still blow its eclutch and render the box needing a rebuild at the cost = to the trade in value of the 5 Series BMW its fitted too!
my parents have 2 cars with ZF8 HP transmissions, a 2013 Audi Q5 and 2014 Ram 1500, neither car has had any transmission issues and both cars are now at around 90,000 miles
@@545iAR uhh, that specific transmission has a torque converter, not a clutch
I guess no one is talking about that.
And that should be probably most important thing.
Aisin and Toyota for reliability
Everyone else is about 10 years behind, thats why they are all going back to the basics...
Very cool,
Actually probably the best auto ever built
The TH400
Built for almost 30 years was in everything from Cadillac to Ferraris to RR to small dump trucks and H1 hummers in the gulf war. And versions are even still being made by race companies today.
A dinosaur compared to this ZF but still legendary
my 2013 audi a4 has a ZF 8-speed and its like butter. it feels so close to a cvt that my coworkers cant feel the diference(and we work at a chevy dealership and drive cvt malibu's all the time). every car should have this Transmission.
What i would like to know is how it compares to a "normal" 6-speed gearbox in terms of production cost and serviceability.
Bro there is no service,you just if you want change oil on 120k miles and over...my had 174k km and no touch on it,beautifull thing to drive,fast smooth and reliable
I've changed oil in mine transsmision and have to say that the first 2 gears are working a lot smoother now than before the change. I've changed it at 90k miles and i'm happy with that 😁
Automatics are "cool" again, but all of these modern automatics have huge reliability problems. DCT is a disaster thanks to Getrag. If you think a new BMW automatic will be reliable, it would be the first.
My next car is back to manual.
BMW isn't the only company using these. Where are you coming up with the claim that these 8HP transmissions are unreliable?
okleydokley The ZF 8HP is damn near bulletproof. The people that are having issues simply aren’t taking proper care of them. Anything will be unreliable if not taken care of properly.
@@EngineeringExplained We've been in this aura that only Toyota makes/uses high quality durable automatic transmissions. Doesn't help that BMW build quality for North American cars haven't been so hot lately either.
@@EngineeringExplained All the car makers are suffering reliability issues from next gen transmissions.
Talk about Ford and the Getrag DCT fiasco, or VW, or Honda...
@@shawncarson8131 aside from fluid swaps at recommended intervals, there is no maintainance. Get serious, Ford/Getrag DCTs failed in under 5000 miles, and in 4 years, they could not get the design to work, but they sold them anyway.
As for BMW...the reliability is bottom of CR, look it up.
Ok to lease and dump in 36 months.
Nobody's still reading comments in here but Jeep Grand Cherokee had a real 6 speed automatic transmission in 1999 .
Yes really.
But one of the speeds is only accessible on downshift (3rd, or 2-prime as people call it because 2 and 3 are very close ratio) and the top (6th) was not enabled in software. So it behaved like a 4 speed with a special downshift gear from "3rd" to "2nd" (really 4th to 3rd).
In late 2000 they started enabling the 6th gear on newly manufactured models and owners of 99/early 2000 models could get a software update at the dealership to enable 6th.
That same transmission (RFE) was updated over the years and in around 2012 was finally given the option of manually choosing all six gears using the ERS option on Ram vehicles (and others, I assume) and I believe there are still some FCA/Stellantis trucks available with a version of this transmission (68RFE)
Please compare ZF 8HP to Mercedes 9G-Tronic
I can only tell you about my experience with them from a driver's point of view. the 9G-Tronic is BY FAR not as good as the 8HP. have driven the 9G-Tronic in an C43 AMG and the 8HP in an 440i with MPPSK. the bmw mopped the floor with the mercedes regarding engine and gearbox
I own a BMW 120i with ZF and I regularly drive a Mercedes GLS 400 with the 9G and the only difference I really notice is the fact that the 9G is jerky until the 3rd gear and the ZF is only jerky in first gear. For regular driving they are on par.
...And could someone please compare the ZF 8HP with the VW group DSG/S-Tronic. Thanks!
GumpPower I can‘t agree more with you. I‘ve had a few loaner cars with the 9G-Tronic and it is literally MILES behind the 8HP which I got to drive in a 530d G30.
What about Aisin 8 speed.. that thing is bullet proof
9:44 Jason tries to money shift the ZF
I’ve owned a Mercedes with a DCT and a BMW with a ZF and there is no denying that the ZF is superior. Performance is similar but when you just want to drive smoothly in slow traffic the ZF is smooth and creamy like butter and the Mercedes DCT feel like a manual car that can’t figure out when to release the clutch. The ZF is the only reason I’m currently in an automatic after a decade of manual vehicle. Love the ZF.
So how about reliability? If it breaks at 100k miles is not reliable, some RUclipsrs might say.
@E Ward That's only if you always buy new
Which is why I'm gonna get a Volvo S60 with the Aisin gearbox. Those things are bulletproof.
One Aisin 8 speed automatic
4th BMW here with the ZF 8HP, all taxies and never a problem. I would say these transmissions are reliable when serviced properly. We never serviced ours and they never miss a beat.
In America, luxury car makers assume most will lease the car for three years. So they're not too concerned with long term reliability.
Longevity is super important to me.. always feared the transmission and had my fair share of failed ones.. how long are these new designs lasting???
I have 8hp that has 430000km, ~270000 freedom units on clock. Still shifts beautifully.
@H H Yes, the fluid was changed once a couple of years ago.
Compared to DCT, autos are much more reliable inherently
Change your fluid and filter every 60k mi and you'll do fine.