The Big Burn: The Truth About Cellulose Insulation
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- Опубликовано: 21 фев 2010
- "The Big Burn Demonstration" shows that fire-treated cellulose insulation can provide over 50% more fire resistance than traditional fiberglass insulation. Sponsored by GreenFiber cellulose insulation. Available at Ecohaus. www.ecohaus.com
What a great piece of information for those that put Cellulose down.
Great video
Getting this next week!
Wish they had Rockwool in one house
Hello Everyone here. Please Can anybody assist me how and why the cellulose is used in Refractory Industries ? And what are other used of the subject cellulose ?
What happens to cellulose when it gets we from a roof leak or moisture from vents? Does the fire retardant break down or off gas? Does any cellulose that got wet need to be replaced or can it be dried? Some cellulose is made from sulfates and some borates? Are the sulfate containing cellulose more at risk to water and moisture damage and degradation? Is cellulose a non combustible? Or should it be treated as a combustible and kept away from furnace exhaust vent and chimney vents travelling through an attack by an insulation shield above the fire stop?
Great questions !
I wish I had seen the nonsense comments here much sooner -- especially the one claiming that the demonstration was “rigged” and is misrepresentation. The demonstration structures were designed by and built under the supervision of Steven Winter Associates, a well-respected engineering and architectural firm specializing in energy efficiency and sustainable construction. The demonstration was conducted at the Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute training facility at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. Would these organizations risk their reputations by cooperating in a conspiracy to misrepresent anything having to do with fire safety or the built environment? It is a flat out lie to state that the uninsulated and the fiber glass insulated structures didn't have sheetrock interior finish. They did. All three structures were identical, except for the insulation. That commenter cites UL as the source for his false statement. UL had nothing to do with this demonstration. No one at UL would be qualified to comment on any aspect of it. Frankly, I doubt that anyone at UL did. The demonstration in this video is one of three that have been done over the years, first in 1978, then in 1987, and finally in 1998. The results in every case were the same. Fiber glass insulated and uninsulated structures burned to the ground while cellulose insulated structures retained structural integrity. That gives occupants more time to reach safety and the fire company more time to reach the scene and save at least part of the structure. Finally there's the comment about cellulose not being "green" because it takes paper fibers out of the recycling loop. Unlike glass or metal, paper can't be run around and around the recycling loop. The fibers get shorter with every reprocessing and eventually end up as useless powder. It will always be necessary to add new fibers to the papermaking process. Cellulose insulation simply puts the fibers diverted to make room for these new fibers to productive use improving the energy-efficiency of homes. As to the claim that cellulose insulation is "in no sense whatsoever recycled or green," cellulose insulation is composed of 85% to 89% recovered paper fiber. Most of that is postconsumer recovered paper. I think most reasonable people would consider that to be green and recycled.
I've sold all types of insulations, except foam! The recycled content is, I think the most important, because sometimes, manufacturers fudge the numbers to, say 82% vs. the real 75%, but thats still a lot of recycled paper, so thats number to I watch for...and what % is the new paper added percentages? is the other...
Good Feedback...Thanks
Sorry, good feedback!
Well said, I was there for this test and everything was monitored by the Fire Chief and others with no horses in that race; so to speak.
As a scientific experiment perhaps they should have finished the houses externally and at least put in doors and plasterboard. The plasterboard would have protected timber studs and insulation and may have affected results
Well done. Now do another comparison with Expanding Foam....
Have fun paying 3x the cost of cellulose and when you need to fix electric
i wonder what would have happened if they had insulated between floors.
Do the test again but with the floors insulated also...
You can blow rockwool into atticts too.
air washes just like blown fiberglass. Like popcorn,
Good to know
if you don't mind me asking, how did u come to that conclusion. as in, where did you hear about this test being rigged? i am not doubting u, i am curious.
they should of had a 4th building with Celtek foam board 2 inch R15 . People buy a home do not look up code and see foam board and its R value and do not get a permit install and . have a fire lose everything in 15 minutes . overhead it is a fireman's nightmare
Ok Ok but what about the supposed release of toxic airborne contaminants such as the boric acid that is contained within cellulose? I'm researching / weighing fiberglass vs cellulose for a 800sq ft attic.. Both products seem to have their cons.. My biggest fear is that I'll be inhaling this boric acid from the treated cellulose as the insulation itself degrades over the years.
Edmonton fire are charging homeowner $15000.00 for homes with cellulous insulation. They claim the fire can reignite and so they call in a contractor [I bet they are friends with the contractor] to tear down the ceiling and make sure all the cellulous is out. Insurance companys will pay the fee but it comes off the homeowners claim. Makes me want to go crazy.
That's a ridiculous charge and makes no sense whatsoever since a lot of things can potentially re-ignite.
Just happened to my house this week. Highly doubt the fire department is in on some conspiracy with the insurance companies.
Nice, except that a stack of wood is not a common furniture in most houses. Let's try it with a more realistic fire load with more plastics and BTU's. And let's put on vinyl siding so the fire communicates up the sides of the house into the eaves, where it will burn the trusses OVER the insulation.
how about spray foam insulation?
Extremely flammable
Why does Cellulose insulation smell. It's because they add a sweet smelling sterilizing agent to it to reduce the former waste paper bedding smell (its mostly sold for animal bedding), when collected from waste paper warehouses and dumpsters behind shops it can contain germs, ants, insects, mice, rats and wildlife droppings, so for public safety reasons it must go under the squirted on liquid sterlizor spayor . Too much sterilizor can go in in one area because the conveyot belts stopped for a paper jam, and other areas can go untreated. Its waste paper called Cellulose a trade name to improve its image and value. Now you know.
Are you really this ignorant about cellulose insulation, or are you just an outright liar? No cellulose insulation is treated with a "sweet-smelling sterilizing agent" nor has any cellulose insulation every been so treated. Cellulose insulation contains boric acid, sodium borate, and sometimes ammonium sulfate as fire retardants. Spray products contain starch adhesive. That's it; that's all.
**Deodorants are added to millions of products to enhance their appeal with soaps, soap powders being the best-known examples. Your list of added ingredients all smell, all are poisons, and all of them are listed as cancer causing substances. If you are a parent are you happy that some firms just dumped a load of (quote) boric acid, sodium borate, and ammonium sulfate in your roof-space. Buy Cellulose and die is the truth slogan here. Adding CHEMICAL POWDERS to shredded-paper to stop it burning the house down is the weak point in your argument.
Treated Cellulose fiber! It is by far the most superior ceiling insulation product.
cellulose is nice. but i know that fire retardants are not good for environment and health. I wonder what is the amount of fire retardant used per 1kg of this insulation.
only get the boric acid only cellulose (~15% boric acid, so 150g per 1kg). Don't buy any ammonium sulfate laced cellulose, it gets wet and smells like ammonia which definitely isn't good for your lungs.
The boric acid laced cellulose doesn't leech out unless you wash it out and don't drink the water from it I guess lol?
Environmentally it's not that poisonous I suppose, unless you are purposely buying it to dump it.
Health wise... don't eat it or breathe it in?
Several companies that do it right with Borite, Green Fibers for one, western fibers for another...
Fire retardants used in cellulose insulation are boric acid, also used as eye wash and in eye drops; sodium borate (Borax), also used to wash clothes; and ammonium sulfate, also used as food preservative and fertilizer. Doesn't sound too bad for health or the environment.
Do this same test with Hemp insulation batts and you will see it will way outperform the paper cellulose house. Make another small house of Hempcrete and you will see it won't burn down at all.
hemp insulation batts use ammonium sulfate as a fire retardant (=ammonia smell when it gets wet)?
Not necessarily, please don't make wide statements...it could be Borite ...
Takes one to recognize another -
Is it necessary to attack the individual or is it because you cannot engage in healthy debate ??
Should have been tested with rockwool.
rocks don't fire, so... use rockwool
You can't use cellulose insulation it in the wall voids of your home if your home has knob and tubing electric or some knob and tubing. Knob and tubing electric needs free space around the wires.
+Bossmanrocks If you have that kind of wiring you should probably get it replaced.
+Bossmanrocks Got any proof of fires caused by knot and tube wiring covered with insulation that was installed right and wasn't overloaded?
True, and most people do rewiring when doing these types of projects anyhow. If they can't, they'll just have to use some other form of insulation.
One wall of my house has knob and tubing electric and it can't be removed because the wiring was actually put in through stone when the foundation was laid. Crazy, I know, but they did some crazy things 100 years ago simply out of ignorance. We know better today. In my case I just had to make sure no insulation is used in that one wall. Thankfully, the previous owner managed to have it removed throughout the rest of the house.
Fiber glass insulation is a proven performer amongst insulation products. It provides exceptional thermal performance, moisture and mold resistance and fire protection..
You really are a MOUTHPIECE mole for the cheesy fiberglass industry, aren't you? Its not the answer for energy efficiency, not close, the only time i recommend fiberglass is with Knauf that is non toxic and didn't BS the public about its binders and past formaldehyde use...
@@roberthaverlock8605 Listen up: Knauf and another well known UK PLC firm of resellers-(huge wholesalers) are fixing the prices, fibreglass is cheap to make, easy to make, but do they care!!!! No Way. Knauf is so overpriced it should be totally ignored, better this firm should be closed down, they can close firms in the USA - Cartel Law,- but not the UK or Europe. In the last 40 years fibreglass quality as gone down, down - down. I used to struggle to cut it with a sharp knife, today it rips with your fingers, candy-fluff- and the thicknesses they recommend are nuts. Only the first 3 inches works, the rest is sales talk, overcharges and window-dressing.
but it tends to be pressed down (less space for air in the structure) and it tends to accumulate humifity like a sponge (but not that fast) - if there is undiscovered leakage in the outer layer of roof, your fiber glass will keep on accumulating water and thus losing isulatory capabilities - i have just learnt that when i was re-insulating my roof last year
Rockwool.
Do not use cellulose where you have high humidity . It will settle badly in just a few years.
Hey i dont kone
Only celluose for my homes
I worked at a cellulose insulation factory years ago, we took recycled papers ground them up and sprayed them with fire retardant chemicals. The jets that sprayed the chemicals clogged several times daily. Meanwhile countless bags of untreated cellulose / ground up paper was bagged and loaded into trucks.
We took grab samples every 15 minutes and held a propane torch flame directly on the insulation for 20 seconds for testing if the insulation caught fire we knew the jets were clogged. As I said countless bags of cellulose insulation were bagged and loaded into truck. We never unloaded the bags.
I'd bet anyone that there are millions of homes that have highly flammable ground up paper crammed in attics ready to catch fire.
I would NEVER put this product in any space such as and attic that was exposed to high heat or around electrical wiring.
Even worse I would be willing to bet that after time the chemicals sprayed on the papers breaks down or dissipates. If you have cellulose in your home I would test it annually.
So glad that was only a temporary job to get me through school and that I knew better than to put this in any areas of my home exposed to high heat.
thanks for sharing your experience. Please do you have any idea how and why the cellulose is used in refractory industries ?
Param When it is properly made it does have some fire resistant qualities. For how long and how reliable the company is another question entirely. I'd say the main reason it is so often used is because it's very cheap and easy to manufacturer, it does insulate well and it makes use of old paper / it's an environmentally friendly product.
I just took some of the stuff out of an attic from a house made in the '40s. We couldn't get it to burn at all, so I would say that the fire retardant chemicals do last quite a while.
Why can't you just test a few samples bag before installation?
+VTV Thats years ago! Doe not happen that way anymore, 80 recycled paper and or some cardboard and borax and bug and fire suppressor!
Try that test after 3 or 4 years and see what happens. Roxul will beat PigPiss(Fiber glass) or cellulose ever time. This is why Roxul is abot 85% of the Canadain market.
After 40 years the results will be the same.
+mike m I did some research and the product you recommend sounds great. Fireproof to over 2000 degrees, great insulation and soundproofing properties. Thanks for the tip. I never heard of this product before now. I presently have cellulose insulation in the attic that has to be removed because the idiot who put it in for a previous owner filled the soffits with this crap. I could opt to keep what I have there right now but if they are going to remove it from the soffits they might as well get rid of all of it. Besides, I have a metal roof and when it rains it sounds like a typhoon is going on in my attic. Roxul will take care of that noise problem too, something cellulose or fiberglass won't do.
"Sound Travels the same Path as Air".......... Miss information at its finest
hot communist - except for the fact that its true. my house is inulated with cellulose and it make a huge difference in noise levels.
Cellulose paper insulation materials are environmentally friendly and
cost effective (due to its shredded waste paper origin) when compared to Fibreglass insulation, but it is combustible and rapidly burns out. The main cause/s of cellulose insulation fire/s are: chimney related, Electrical faults, Lightning strikes affecting the roof and contractors carelessness. Installation advice for contractors: Have the attic space electrical installation tested by an qualified electrical contractor, and do this every 3 years afterwards . Loft wiring should be in conduit but not attached or adjacent to cellulose insulation. Do not place high wattage lights or electric fires or radiators near the insulation or allow the insulation to overhang electric fittings. Do not insulate near recessed lighting into the ceilings below. Use heat resistant bulk head light fittings in the roof space. Electric supply cables need to be prevented from coming in to contact with cellulose insulation, or adjacent to other flammable materials.
*OLD HAND SAYS: I have laid insulation in attics since 1964, worked for all the majors as an Installer. We did a fabulous job, but here's something that will shock you, "No insulation product works the way it's claimed to. Some good advice: Old houses CANNOT BE EFFECTIVELY INSULATED, because when first built they contain so many HEAT ESCAPE HOLES (design faults) which forever PREVENT their insulation - in my opinion, the vast majority of homes are no better off being insulated and MOST should be left alone or totally demolished. I had a potential super-rich client whose home had 123 bedrooms, 2 ballrooms, 2 staircases, miles of long corridors, servants quarters and over 500 windows, and she wanted me to insulate it. When I told her it was an IMPOSSIBILITY she was really vexed. I was shown the door. Sealing and closing the minute holes in old homes beats all knowns insulants. PREVENTING (stopping) cold air coming your home is the correct WAY forward - by doing so you stop hot air going out.
Cellulose is shredded newspaper. Stay well clear of it, use Owens Corning or Johns Mandeville product only*
Depends on where you buy it? Some locations and companies like in Spokane, is 100 % recycled paper, you just have to check the percentages and do your homework, apparently you didn't and spouted something that's really not true...You haven't done sheeps wool, or hemp, or probably no Mineral wool as well?
*THE LAUGHS ON LARRY*: Enews press release / Cellulose insulation is made with recycled paper, most of it consumer waste paper like newspapers. However, there is still a virtual mountain of waste paper going to landfills. Recent calculations indicate approximately 1,126,330 pounds of newspaper become waste about every 10 minutes in the United States. When recycled as cellulose insulation, that’s enough waste paper to insulate 220 energy efficient new homes every 10 minutes.” Cellulose insulation installers will continue to work at both the industrial level with major paper recyclers, dumpers, and grassroots programs such as local charitable paper drives, this will help solve the nation’s overflowing landfill problems. Insulating homes with recycled waste paper makes sense.
Own Trade warning notice: Watch out for “blow and go companies” the industry term-for cellulose firms who charge a hefty fee, promise major heat saving upgrades, then disapear. (Source the www)
Do you have any scientific proof not to beleive in it?
at the end of the day the house will be burned
One thing that he should have mentioned is that fiberglass insulation puts off toxic fumes when it burns. Some of which are heavier than air. That would mean anyone who crawls on the floor to avoid the smoke would be inhaling those toxic fumes. Oops!
Its just made of inert glass, it doesn't burn, it collapses and melts.
I think you mean cellulose? As that is treated with chemicals such as boric acid..
how would cellulose save your life compared to any other insulation product. if you want to stay in your house for 45 minutes while it is on fire, be my guest. any person with half a brain would grab some clothes, grab the valuables, and get the hell out of the house.
I know this comment is really old, but that's not really what they're pointing out in this video. The fact that there is this much of a difference in how much time you have to possibly salvage a building or save lives is huge.
For Chucky, did you know people sleep?
Why pretend that it is just cellulose? The truth is that it is cellulose with a LOT of added low-temperature flux (boron compounds)., There is nothing at all wrong with these additives, in fact, they make this a great product, but it is in no sense whatsoever "recycled" or "green" or cheap.
Cellulose is "wood fibre" treated with fire retardants - wood begins to smoulder at only 140 deg C and will ignite at 190 deg C in it's natural form.. how long do fire retardants last ???
Fibreglass is "glass" which is NON combustible - this video is bordering on misrepresentation
From what I understand, sodium tetraborate is a salt, and is inherently stable and will remain so until it is physically removed from the substrate. = )
good thing your not in a leadership position...
I'm sure fire retardant chemicals are good for your health.
Only what your grandmother used and the hoarse drawn wagon train, known as Borax is the fire retardant!
There are a lot more accessible things that you can eat that will kill you much faster... (yes you would have to ingest it)
Another marketing crap.
My home burned to the ground because of this product.
Bullshit....